[NeoLemmix] NepsterLems

[Nepster]

  Welcome to NepsterLems - A big level pack with 111 challenges! 

Right on time for the 25th anniversary of Lemmings, all my levels are finished, backrouted by the beta testers and fixed again. Have Fun!

Download link of version 2.0 for NeoLemmix V10.15.20 or later:
   https://www.dropbox.com/s/fkrqzojlfrwnen7/NepsterLems.zip?dl=1
If you want to have the old version 1.11 for NeoLemmix V10.13.18 or earlier, then you can still get it here:
  https://www.dropbox.com/s/1erpv2pyqjkxqe4/NepsterLems%20V1.11.nxp?dl=1

Rank 1: Comet (15 levels)

You always have 5 of each skill. The terrain usually gives you many options - and be sure to use them. Despite being the first rank, you will find only very few any-way-you-want levels.

Rank 2: Moon (15 levels)

Now it is up to 10 of each skill - and much more complex obstacles. Even more so than in the first rank, planning a general route at the beginning is advisable.

Rank 3: Planet (20 levels)

Ok, let's start with giving you less and less freedom to solve the levels. The first levels start around Tricky/Taxing difficulty, but soon progress to Mayhem.

Rank 4: Sun (20 levels)

Now you need more and more tricks, unusual combinations of skills, etc. However the solutions are not yet overly convoluted (main word being "overly").

Rank 5: Neutron Star (20 levels)

By now all the levels can easily compete in difficulty with late Mayhem or late Havoc. Be prepared to use non-linear approaches or (and?) heavy multitasking.

Rank 6: Black Hole (21 levels)

These levels should give headaches even to the greatest experts. Go and let the lemmings perform a complex dance on your screen!
Advice: Play the very last level as a save-as-many-as-you-can level. Even getting close to solving the level is a huge achievement!

Many thanks to...
- DMA Design for inventing the game Lemmings,
- Eric Langedijk for creating Lemmix, which was used to create most of the levels,
- namida for providing NeoLemmix, the FlexiToolkit and technical help,
- Akseli, DynaLem, IchoTolot and namida for pre-release testing,
- all other level designers for all their level ideas, that I reused in my levels,
- and everyone on LemmingsForums in general, for keeping Lemmings alive. It was you, more than anything else, that spawned the idea of NepsterLems in my head.

[IchoTolot]

Looks like I have sth to play through after my exam phase

[Minim]

Had a quick look at some of your levels in the pack. Some of those levels are just artistically brilliant, particularly Sun 9 and Planet 7. How did you manage to make some red blocks in the Fire set?!

I also tried the Black Hole rating, and managed to solve one of them! I'm not usually well known for solving levels in the hardest difficulty rating, but thought this level looked clear enough what the solution might be. Here's Black Hole 18.

I think this is an excellent pack overall. I'll certainly be trying all of them out later in the day.

[Nepster]

How did you manage to make some red blocks in the Fire set?!

These are lots and lots or the red arrows with the non-red stuff erased and placed above each other with no-overwrite. If you want to study this in greater details: The player allows mass-dumping all levels with F4 on the main menu. Then load 0307.lvl into the editor.

Your solution to Black Hole 18 was introduced by the latest backroute-fix, because I forgot to remove one of the blockers. Still it is close enough to the intended solution to be acceptable.

[Proxima]

I'm hugely looking forward to trying out this pack when I have time. Just one small point for now -- you clearly have an excellent ability for level aesthetics, so I'm sure there are many beautiful levels also in the Planet rating, and Minim has highlighted Planet 7 as an example. Why, then, use such an ugly level to advertise the rank? It really stands out from the others in this post.

[Nepster]

Opinions on aesthetics differ, but seeing that Planet 7 is so popular...

[Nepster]

Regarding the recent changes in game mechanics: I am fairly sure all levels remain solvable in V1.43, but I haven't yet confirmed this by updating all ~60 broken replays. As removing the deadly sides gimmick without replacement would force major backroute-fixes, I plan to check everything only after all currently discussed changes are either decided upon and (when applicable) implemented.

[mobius]

awesome! I can't wait to try it out. --Don't expect a whole lot of replays since your levels are notoriously hard, but I plan to try and solve as many as I can.

These do all look very nice. Also I'm still curious to the intended solution to Devil's right hand...

EDIT: started playing the first rank; really cool levels so far! and the music is really nice too. I particularly like "One small step for Lemkind". A very neat idea.

[IchoTolot]

Finally some time to play it

Step 1 was today: Replay every broken replay again of everything I played earlier (because of the backroute fixes + new physics). And now everything is solved again

Hope I broke not too many levels   (especially BH 20 for the 3rd time by now i think )

Zip file attached!

[IchoTolot]

Ok, the Sun rank has fallen

Some of the levels here I would consider harder than the beginning of BlackHole! It has really slowed down my progress in a good way

Esspecially the last level of the rank was very clever!     The overall quality of levels is really really great here!

Sometimes I would add a bit of extra decoration to the sides, but that is simply just my own style  
As Simon said to me in our meetup: "Nepster hat Geschmack!"       And he is right!

Replays attached!

Onto the last 2 ranks, where I will probably get stuck for a long time!

[Nepster]

Just found time to watch all your replays. Lots of great solutions there, but unfortunately still some backroutes as well. Will upload a new improved version soon. More detailed comments:

Comet and Moon

Replays for Comet 5 and Moon 7 are missing (the existing replays are for other levels).
The order is still partially the old one with the following levels interchanged: Comet 4, 9 and Comet 12, 15.
Interesting new solution to Moon 8.

Planet

Planet 4: This one riddled with backroutes. Still not the intended solution.
Planet 7: Not an intended solution and there is another level, where you should use precisely this approach. However I will keep your solution until this other level is backroute-free, and will then decide what to do.
Planet 13: Backroute.
Planet 15: Clever alternative solution.
Planet 16: Still a backroute.
Planet 17: Another new alternative solution.

Sun

Sun 1: Backroute.
Sun 3: Clever alternative solution.
Sun 4: I thought I had removed this backroute...
Sun 7: Added this backroute while removing another one.
Sun 8: I hate this trick! This is the third level where it creates backroutes.
Sun 9: Again a backroute.
Sun 10: Backroute.
Sun 11: Not the intended solution, but I don't know how I can remove this one. So it will most likely stay.
Sun 13: Not the intended solution. Will wait for further solutions before deciding what to do with it.
Sun 15: Huge abuse of OWW-mechanics. I see no way to block this solution.
Sun 18: Glaring backroute.

Neutron Star and Black Hole

Neutron Star 1: Slight variation of the intended solution.
Black Hole 2: I am not a fan of such pixel-precise tricks, but the solution is close enough to the intended one to be acceptable.
Black Hole 3: Akseli already had a similar backroute. Thanks for showing me, that my fix was not sufficient.
Black Hole 4: A prime example of: One backroute fixed = Another one created.
Black Hole 20: Clever, but not clever enough . I will again remove this solution.

I would like to encourage everyone else to either post their solutions here or send them to me by PM, even if you have only solved a few levels.

[IchoTolot]

Ok, uploaded another version which should have fixed the errors that the replay checker had not caught.

+ NS 4-6 + BH 5 added as a bonus

[Nepster]

I finally managed to fix IchoTolot's backroutes (and a few others) and even brought all my replays up to date . Version 1.1 is attached to the first post.
Levels that were modified: 3-4, 3-13, 3-16, 4-4, 4-7, 4-8, 4-9, 4-10, 4-18, 5-2, 6-3, 6-4, 6-5, 6-20.

[IchoTolot]

My biggest hackjob of all time       After getting really frustrated about Sun 7

Replay attached!

[IchoTolot]

Ok next next bunch of replays

Included is everything up to Black Hole 13 + BH 20

[IchoTolot]

Everything is currently solved except for   BH 14 + BH 21   

Replays attached!

[Nepster]

I updated NepsterLems, so that it stays solvable in new NeoLemmix versions (at least with high probability). This meant removing the deadly sides gimmick from all levels, which may or may not have introduced new backroutes in some levels when played with V1.43.

Apart from that I did fix a lot of IchoTolot's backroutes:
  3-16, 4-7, 4-8, 4-9,5-7, 5-8, 5-11, 5-12, 5-16, 5-18, 5-19, 6-2, 6-3, 6-4, 6-5, 6-7, 6-8, 6-9, 6-11, 6-12, 6-13, 6-16, 6-17, 6-18, 6-19, 6-20
In addition to that, I replaced 4-15 by a completely new level. The old level had un-fixable backroutes and with the oncoming physics changes a few more easy backroutes will become possible. So a level from "Return of the Tribes" got moved here.

The following levels were solved by IchoTolot in a non-intended way, but the solutions were comparable in difficulty and beauty to the intended solutions, so they will stay:
  4-10, 4-11, 4-13, 4-18, 5-4, 5-13, 5-14, 5-15, 6-6, 6-15.

[IchoTolot]

Alright, updated replays here

Everything solved except  BH  9 ,14 + 21

[Wafflem]

Here are some replays! Most of the levels are ones I've already beaten during testing, so I'm only posting those that may be backroutes.

Planet 3 "Another Miner Problem" - I have one miner left.
Planet 15 "A Stroll on the Lawn" - I'm left with one climber. Not sure if the climber is meant to be a decoy.
Planet 17 "Minor Obstacles" - this one looks like a major backroute. But, if this is the type of level that is meant to have multiple solutions, I would switch it with Planet 9 "Lemming Playground" since the latter really boggles my mind and it's a two-of-everything level.
Sun 4 "Sewer Lemmings" - might be a backroute since I am left with one blocker.
Sun 11 "It's hero time again!" - this one's definitely a backroute.
Neutron Star 5 "Silence on Earth" - this one is definitely one as well.

Overall, I can only beat the Comet, Moon, and almost all of the Planet levels. Other than that, it was a great experience testing this pack! It is extremely hard, but it really feels very rewarding once you beat the harder levels!

[Nepster]

IchoTolot: You have produced another 18 backroutes , though some of them start resembling the intended solution. At least Black Hole 19 (Devil's Right Hand) is essentially geoo's solution, thus completely acceptable. And I decided to accept you solution to Black Hole 17 (Everclimbing Lemming) as well, although it changes quite a bit regarding the order of the skill assignments and the way some obstacles are passed.

DynaLem:
- Planet 3: Intended solution. The other miner is only there to avoid the pixel precise placement in your solution.
- Planet 15: Another slight variation of the intended solution.
- Planet 17: This is a rather open-ended level. However I am not sure, if I want to keep your solution, as it looks quite a bit simpler than the ones I have seen until now. Switching it with Planet 9 might be a good idea nevertheless.
- Sun 4: Having a blocker spare is no problem at all.
- Sun 11: Yes, I have to fix this.
- Neutron Star 5: It is certainly not the intended solution. But given all the other alternative solution (that cannot be easily fixed), I decided to accept (almost) all solutions. So your solution is fine.

[Wafflem]

Hmmmm...I'd switch Sun 4 with either Planet 14 "Just a quickie!" or Planet 18 "Divorce" then. Planet 14 is difficult - a 30-second level with a one-of-everything skillset and a 99 release rate, all of which make it feel like an early-Sun level. Divorce could also work in Sun because it's a big level with so many obstacles and LOTS of planning that it also boggles my mind. Note that Sun 4 is the only Sun level I've beaten. You could maybe do a three-way switch:
Sun 4 --> Planet 14 --> Planet 18 --> Sun 4

I would also put Neutron Star 5 in an earlier rank - maybe Planet.

Also, forgot one more replay - a backroute to Sun 1 "Five do not survive". Had to reproduce this one since the other replay is in another computer.

EDIT: And Neutron Star 8 "Three Little Lemmings", which is also likely a backroute.
EDIT 2:Here's Neutron Star 14 "I smell something rotten here...", also a backroute.

[Nepster]

Uploaded NepsterLems V1.3 with backroute fixes for the following levels:
  3-16, 3-17, 4-1, 4-9, 4-11, 4-15, 5-7, 5-8, 5-11, 5-19, 6-3, 6-4, 6-5, 6-7, 6-8, 6-11, 6-12, 6-13, 6-16, 6-18, 6-20
Some levels got swapped as suggested by DynaLem and IchoTolot (though not always in precisely the manner they suggested).

V1.3 fixes as well DynaLems backroutes to "Five do not survive" and "Three Little Lemmings". I only saw the latest edit right now, so "I smell something rotten here..." will only get fixed in V1.4 (assuming it is indeed a backroute).

[Wafflem]

Just want to point out that NepsterLems is still displayed as version 1.2 in the main post.

Forgot to mention a Comet switch suggestion:
Comet 12 "Neighbour Help" is way too hard for its position (I'd say second-hardest to Ninjas in the Attic), while Comet 13 "Underground Labyrinth"and Comet 14 "Curiosity", the solutions stand out more. This level also really feels like the level that would work towards very-late Comet. So, a three-way switch would work:
Comet 12 --> Comet 14 --> Comet 13 --> Comet 12

Planet 5 "Earth Cube" should be switched with Planet 8 "Fifty-one steps to heaven," if my replay to Planet 8 is not a backroute. I feel Planet 8 is the type that has multiple solutions and it stands out more than Planet 5's.

Also, how's this solution to Planet 9 "Minor Obstacles"?

[IchoTolot]

Uploaded NepsterLems V1.3 with backroute fixes for the following levels:
  3-16, 3-17, 4-1, 4-9, 4-11, 4-15, 5-7, 5-8, 5-11, 5-19, 6-3, 6-4, 6-5, 6-7, 6-8, 6-11, 6-12, 6-13, 6-16, 6-18, 6-20
Some levels got swapped as suggested by DynaLem and IchoTolot (though not always in precisely the manner they suggested).

V1.3 fixes as well DynaLems backroutes to "Five do not survive" and "Three Little Lemmings". I only saw the latest edit right now, so "I smell something rotten here..." will only get fixed in V1.4 (assuming it is indeed a backroute).

Which levels exactly were swapped?

Could you write a changelog for this here as well, so that I can simply just swap the replay names in my folder ----> fixing replays again would be a lot easier this way

[Nepster]

Which levels exactly were swapped?

Could you write a changelog for this here as well, so that I can simply just swap the replay names in my folder ----> fixing replays again would be a lot easier this way

If you download NepsterLems via the download link in the first post, you always get the current ChangeLog.txt as well, where you can find more details about all the changes, including swapped positions. For V1.2 -> V.13 the changed positions are
  3-9 <-> 3-17
  3-14 <-> 4-4
  4-9 <-> 5-5
  5-18 <-> 6-4

DynaLem: I prefer not to make position changes, if it is just moving a level two positions later. This is just too much work for everyone updating their replays to new positions. I will make a note about Planet 5 vs. 8 though, but unless I change a few other level positions as well, these levels will likely stay at their current positions now.

PS: Your solution to "I smell something rotten here..." is indeed a backroute.

[namida]

Just downloaded the latest version and will start doing a video playthrough soon.

One thing - the music pack won't work unless the filename of the music pack matches that of the NXP (- ".nxp", + "_music.dat", not case sensitive). So, either the NXP should be "NepsterLems.nxp" or the music pack should be "NepsterLems V1.3_Music.dat".

EDIT: A heads up to anyone else playing this pack and intending to record - don't use the custom music, as many tracks are flagged for copyright by Youtube; most just cause "Not available in Germany", but at least one outright causes the entire video's audio to be muted. A shame really, because there's some very nice music in here.

[Nepster]

Interesting to hear that, especially as you pointed out in IRC that the music to level 12 in rank 1 is one of the main offenders: It is the part "Quam olim Abrahae" of Bruckner's requiem in d-minor, which was written 167 years ago. I really thought it would no longer be copyrighted...
Given this info I will probably change my plans and stick to the usual tunes instead of using some works by Chopin and Dvorak for future level packs.

PS to everyone making video playthroughs: Please save your replays and send them to me. I find it much more convenient and faster to check replays via replay files instead of watching videos on youtube.

[namida]

It is the part "Quam olim Abrahae" of Bruckner's requiem in d-minor, which was written 167 years ago. I really thought it would no longer be copyrighted...

The music itself wouldn't be, but the specific performance of it could be.

PS to everyone making video playthroughs: Please save your replays and send them to me. I find it much more convenient and faster to check replays via replay files instead of watching videos on youtube.

I have replay auto-saving on, so I'll be able to send you these too. Do you want them as I complete them, or in one go when I finish (or maybe as I finish each rank)?

[Nepster]

The music itself wouldn't be, but the specific performance of it could be.

Perhaps, though the recodings are anything but recent. Anyway, to be on the safe side, I removed the music pack from any download.

I have replay auto-saving on, so I'll be able to send you these too. Do you want them as I complete them, or in one go when I finish (or maybe as I finish each rank)?

Whenever you think sending me the replays makes sense.

[namida]

The music itself wouldn't be, but the specific performance of it could be.

Perhaps, though the recodings are anything but recent. Anyway, to be on the safe side, I removed the music pack from any download.

I have replay auto-saving on, so I'll be able to send you these too. Do you want them as I complete them, or in one go when I finish (or maybe as I finish each rank)?

Whenever you think sending me the replays makes sense.

Re: music pack; Unless we actually receive a complaint of some kind (unlikely), I'm not going to remove the link or insist you don't post them here just because Youtube flags them in videos. Of course, if you want to do so to err on the side of caution for your own sake, then that may indeed be the safer option. Regarding that specific track, from what I can gather the recording is from 1987, so probably old enough that legal trouble is unlikely in practice, but definitely new enough to be covered by copyright.

Re: Replays, I'll send them as I finish each rank then. I'll PM you the Comet ones now.

[IchoTolot]

Everything again solved except for   BH 14+ 21   

I will again upload my whole folder, because of the switching around levels and fixing earlier ones which I did not backroute on top, I am not sure anymore which I had to replay again

When the fix list gets hopefully smaller with the next patches, I will switch up to upload only the levels I had to replay again (sry for now Nepster )

[namida]

I will again upload my whole folder, because of the switching around levels and fixing earlier ones which I did not backroute on top, I am not sure anymore which I had to replay again

Use the mass replay tester against your old folder!

[IchoTolot]

I will again upload my whole folder, because of the switching around levels and fixing earlier ones which I did not backroute on top, I am not sure anymore which I had to replay again

Use the mass replay tester against your old folder!

Well, I overwrote the old stuff  with the new    I am not keeping that amount of replays.

[IchoTolot]

Seeing namida also had bigger problems with Sun 7 -----> swap it with BH 1 at least!     Now I have the proof that I wasn't just braindead back when I played it.

Sun 7 is quite harder than a bunch of BH levels in my opinion + I am continuing to mention that, but BH 1 is way too easy for the last rank

So Sun 7 should 100% go up there!

[Nepster]

And once again an updated version:
1) Backroute fixes to: 3-4, 3-5, 3-16, 3-20, 5-7, 5-8, 5-14, 6-3, 6-9, 6-11, 6-12, 6-13, 6-16, 6-20
2) Added 14 talismans:

• Comet 5: Save every lemming using only 10 skills in total. (Bronze)
• Comet 10: Solve the level using at most 3 of each skill. (Bronze)
• Comet 13: Solve the level using only 1 miner. (Bronze)
• Moon 8: Save every lemming. (Bronze)
• Planet 9: Save 19 out of 20 lemmings. (Bronze)
• Planet 10: Save every lemming. (Bronze)
• Comet 3: Solve the level in 30 seconds. (Silver)
• Comet 7: Save every lemming. (Silver)
• Comet 15: Save every lemming. (Silver)
• Moon 12: Solve the level using only 2 builders. (Silver)
• Moon 15: Solve the level using at most 9 of each skill. (Silver)
• Moon 10: Save 94 out of 100 lemmings. (Gold)
• Neutron Star 14: Solve the level using only 2 bashers. (Gold)
• Black Hole 21: Solve Final Frustration using only 100 skills in total. (Gold) [Sorry, I just couldn't resist...]

The suggestion to swap Sun 7 and Black Hole 1 is noted, and a change like that will likely occur in one of the future updates.

[IchoTolot]

Alright, played again today and everything is now solved except for BH 21, which I not even tried yet      
Finally BH 14 has fallen and I cant believe it took so long to see that (once you saw it) really simple trick.

All replays attached, all working with the stable NL version +NepsterLems 1.4.

The replays that needed replaying should be consistant with Nepsters fix list and I think I found even more backroutes

[Wafflem]

Here are some more replays! I've attempted some of the talismans. I'd say that Comet 13 "The Underground Labyrinth" is the most clever one you've made! Moon 8 "Burning Shadows" was also very challenging.

Moon 10 "Lots of small tasks" is an attempt.

Sun 5 "Blast the Lemmings" should be a backroute. Not sure about my solutions to Sun 17 "Dirt Runner" and Neutron Star 15 "Poor Wee Creatures - Twin Edition".

I haven't beaten Comet 3's (Don't Cross Me!) talisman yet, but when I hit the button to exit the level, for some reason I got the talisman. I didn't save a replay for that one.

By the way, in the Talisman screen, it says Neutron Star 5, but in your 1.4 update post it says Neutron Star 14. Which Neutron Star level are you referring to?

[IchoTolot]

Warning! Great self praising incomming!

So tried BH 21 today and after a lot of tries........... Who's da man!

Solved BH 21 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great level! The struggle to get those last destructive skills is maddening!

That's my type of level    Is the music track from Metal Gear Rising Revengence? Greatly helped me not giving up and pushed me forward

So with the current version I can proudly say: NepsterLems solved! (at least until the next fix for the few backrouted levels comes out)

Some stats of my replay:

Time ~ 21mins

Skills used:

19 Climbers

19 Floaters

6 Blockers

20 Builders

20 Bashers

20 Miners

20 Diggers

114 Skills total  (Great potential to save a lot of Athletes and maybe some Blockers)

Replay Attached!

[Minim]

That replay is quite simply, Nicht zu fassen! Over 20 minutes of clever skill usage. Looking at that it seems like you did all that in one try!

I declare for now that BH 21 is the greatest level ever created, and that IchoTolot is the greatest level solver ever. Well done to both of you!

[IchoTolot]

That replay is quite simply, Nicht zu fassen! Over 20 minutes of clever skill usage. Looking at that it seems like you did all that in one try!

I declare for now that BH 21 is the greatest level ever created, and that IchoTolot is the greatest level solver ever. Well done to both of you!

Well thanks for the compliment

Rewatching this there are quite a few ways to save some skills, especially in the first part. Nepster told me that I quite altered the solution there (100% expected in such a level ) and I begin to see some ways of optimising processes (saving some destuctive skills mainly   freeing that first blocker + the first ascend are a bit suboptimal). So it's far from perfect, but it gets the 100% + letting Nepster see that the 100 skill solution can be cut down to 95

[Nepster]

Here the new version V1.5 which fixes backroutes by IchoTolot, namida and Wafflem for levels:
  4-1, 4-5, 4-8, 4-11, 4-12, 4-13, 4-16, 5-7, 5-15, 6-3, 6-9, 6-11, 6-12, 6-13, 6-16, 6-20
Moreover the talismans in V1.4 did not check the save requirement properly, which is fixed now. Thanks to Wafflem for noticing a typo in the talisman descriptions: Only Neutron Star 14 has a talisman, not Neutron Star 5.

Solved BH 21 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Congratulations to an amazing solution!

[IchoTolot]

Didn't play the last week to solve BH 9+11 again, but I am uploading my replays in advance to allow you to fix the others in the meantime.

4-1, 4-5, 4-8, 4-11, 4-12, 4-13, 4-16, 5-7, 5-15, 6-3, (6-9, 6-11), 6-12, 6-13, 6-16, 6-20

must/should be checked again by you.

Will try BH 9+11 probably again with the next patch, but me not instantly solving them might be a good sign here

[Nepster]

And we have reached version 1.6. Two main changes were made:
1) Backroute-fixes for 3-6, 5-2, 6-3, 6-12, 6-13, 6-16, 6-20.
2) Removed some exploders: Apart from X-of-all level (first two ranks and Final Frustration), the number of exploder now never exceeds the number of lemmings that may die in the level.

[IchoTolot]

Fixed up all replays again today except for BH 9 + 11 which I did not try again yet (aren't really my favorites to play on top of that ).

So the levels changed in the last patch should be checked again and I think I got a few more intended now as I really have a strong feeling that this MUST be intended!

[Nepster]

Comments on IchoTolot's new solutions:
6-3 (Rule of One): Very nice and clever solution. I consider this acceptable, even though it completely misses the main trick of the intended solution.
6-13 (Another Generic Title): Slight variation of the intended solution.
6-12, 6-16 and 6-20: Backroutes (as you probably guessed).

[IchoTolot]

BH 9 + 11 solved once more!

That makes the pack completely solved again in the current version, but as Nepster already mentioned 12, 16, 20 + probably 11 still need fixing and therefore more solving

Replays attached.

[Nepster]

Version 1.7 is available. It contains (as predicted by IchoTolot) another round of changes for levels 6-11, 6-12, 6-16 and 6-20.

[IchoTolot]

Alright, fixed them up again and I feel like most of them are intended now (but hell what do I know ).

Maybe BH 16 is not quite there yet.

BH 11 seems backrouted again

[Nepster]

V1.8: Updated to NeoLemmix V1.47 and backroute-fixes for levels 5-7, 5-8, 5-9, 6-11, 6-16 and 6-20.

[IchoTolot]

Solved a few levels in a quick session again today

BH 20 and 11 are still to go though. I really don't like BH 11

NS 9 did not break for me.

[IchoTolot]

And BH 20 is also solved again

This must be intended this time! I have a feeling!

[IchoTolot]

BH 11 has fallen again.

But now everything looks and plays a bit like a hackjob on this though

I suspect another backroute.

[Nepster]

After 4 months of hiatus, here a new updated version of NepsterLems:
- Updated to the newest player version V10.12.12.
- Backroute fixes for levels: 3-7, 5-10, 5-11, 6-15 (formerly 6-11), 6-19 (formerly 6-16)
- A bit of reordering: 5-12 <-> 6-1; 6-7  <-> 6-17; 6-11 <-> 6-15; 6-16 <-> 6-19

[mobius]

here are three replays for the Planet rank. One may be a backroute.

Oh, I apologize but I was using 1.8, because the music wasn't working on 1.9 . You'll need to tell me what to do again to fix that.

[Nepster]

Time for an update to version 1.10:
- Backroute fixes to Divorce, HangLem and One Minute of Action.
- Fixed talisman condition for Something Rotten.

Moreover I added a description how to get the music pack working to the first post.

[IchoTolot]

Time for an update to version 1.10:
- Backroute fixes to Divorce, HangLem and One Minute of Action.

Time for more backroutes for HangLem and One Minute of Action as well

Hanglem is looking more and more like swiss cheese filled with spike traps     Maybe consider altering the intended solution to make the level(s) fixable or change the swiss cheese effect. I can assure you that at least Hanglem I would still consider as extremly hard in this stage with my solution!

[Nepster]

Time for a new version V1.11:
- Backroute fixes to 5-19, 6-2, 6-3, 6-4, 6-5, 6-7, 6-15, 6-19
- 15 levels with reduced number of lemmings (mostly changed from 50-80 to 20)

[IchoTolot]

Here are my updated replays. Including new solution to BH 2 and 5

[Nepster]

The first post contains now a download link to the new-formats version of NepsterLems.

[Strato Incendus]

Okay, I didn't expect to find any remaining backroutes in this old classic, but apparently I may have done just that. This is for the version 1.11 before the last update, but I didn't get to ranks 4-6 yet anyway. Here's how far I've got (roughly up to the end of Planet, with skipping some levels in between):

Some single level remarks:

Spoiler

Ninjas in the attic: I had to place each digger at precisely the right position, otherwise they wouldn't have bombed through the entire pillar. Most annoying about this, I had to wait for the digger to dig down a bit before assigning the bomber and thereby seeing if my placement had been correct - and in addition to that, do this for several diggers simultaneously. I can't count how often I did the same steps over and over again on this one .
Diagonal disarray: Got stuck here first due to running out of builders. Then readdressed it much later and could save builders by using turnaround-miners to break through the small slopes, ratherthan destructive skill + builder to cancel it again.
Many thanks to...: A nice builder conservation exercise .
Another miner problem: Compared to the two preceding levels Planet 01 and 02, which I couldn't solve on my own, this one felt surprisingly easy.
The Block-Store: This one is really genius and had me guessing for a while. I enjoy hero levels much more than "huge open-ended XX of everything" ones. Though I feel I still may have broken it , since I neither needed the climber nor the floater.
Blockers forever!: Two replays attached for this one. Both seem broken .
A study in scarlet: Got stuck here like namida did, and finally spotted the solution while watching his LP, roughly around the same time he did . Excellent level!
Five steps to heaven: "I had a cunning plan" here, which saved me a lot of skills... probably not intended this way.
Minor obstacles: Is this a backroute? I usually don't have spare builders left on your levels, so...
Jump in the ring: I doubt that fiddling with digger, basher, and blocker above the exit was intended . Plus I had two skills left at the end.
Sewer Lemmings: Again surprisingly easy for its position.
Pillar of Lemkind: Definitely very precise placement required here to make the miner go on over the staircase, without breaking a hole into it at its foot where opposite-facing lemmings would fall through. Also, what purpose does the very tight time limit serve here?

[Nepster]

Thanks a lot. Among the first two ranks there are a lot of alternative solutions, that I haven't seen before.

Regarding your solutions from the Planet rank

Block-Store: This is a backroute, but a rather clever one. So I might keep it as an acceptable alternative solution.
Blockers Forever: This is definitely a backroute, that needs to be removed.
Fiftyone steps to heaven: As it is a very open-ended level, your solution is fine.
Minor Obstacles: Nice alternative solution. This level has lots of solutions, and even a few with a builder spare.
Jump in the Ring! Wow! No wonder you considered this level extremely precise. This is the most complicated and precise solution I have seen so far.
Sewer Lemmings: Slight backroute, that needs to be fixed.
Pillar of Lemkind: This is an alternative solution, that I have not yet seen before. The other known solutions are faster, btw. Regarding the time limit: It is necessary to prevent a solution that uses only a single worker lemming.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for your quick reply! So is Jump in the Ring a backroute, then? (Since I don't know the intended solution, I'm not sure whether you could change any of the skills to prevent what I have done. )

I'm always checking back with namida's old LP of your pack, because I enjoy commentated LPs more than just replay files. However, he of course had more backroutes available, among them "The Block-Store" and "Pillar of Lemkind". I tried his backroute on "The Block-Store" and saw that you removed it, just like you shortened the broken pillar in Pillar of Lemkind so that one can't just simply bash straight to the right anymore.

I'll have to see at which point in your pack IchoTolot has arrived in the meantime .

PS: That's the planet rank you're referring to, not the moon rank .

[Nepster]

Thanks for your quick reply! So is Jump in the Ring a backroute, then? (Since I don't know the intended solution, I'm not sure whether you could change any of the skills to prevent what I have done. )

I wouldn't call it a backroute, just an overcomplicated one. Anyway, there is basically no way to remove it, even if I wanted to.

I'll have to see at which point in your pack IchoTolot has arrived in the meantime .

He was already a beta-tester, but recorded his solutions only later.

PS: That's the planet rank you're referring to, not the moon rank .

Thanks. Fixed.

[IchoTolot]

I waited for my solutions to be uploaded until they were all acceptable. That means no backroutes and alternative solutions at most.

[Forestidia86]

Now I'm just curious: Is that the alternate NL-route to "A Study in Scarlet" Simon spoke of? It seems quite precise and I never could get it to work in the Lix-version. (Played with pack v. 2.0 and NL v. 11.15.24)

[Nepster]

Yes, everything correct: This is the alternative solution in the NeoLemmix version, it is rather precise, and it doesn't work in the Lix version.

PS: I will look into your NepsterLix replays over the next few days.

[Nessy]

I just want to jump in here and say that Forestidia86's solution was actually the first solution I found to "A Study in Scarlet". I didn't even know the other solution existed to be honest. It's still one of my favorites not only because of the aesthetics but because it's an excellent puzzle level and was my first real head scratcher.

[Forestidia86]

Sorry that I'm posting again just one solution but I'm just curious if it is intended.

Sun 8 - "Minimalistic Platforms" - Nepsterlems v. 2.0, played with NL player v. 12.01.00

Edit:
I looked at the Lix replay from the replay collection and it seems my solution is indeed intended. I actually don't know why it is ranked so high compared to the difficulty of the other levels. But it is harder and tighter to pull off in Nepsterlems I have to admit.
Sorry, Nepster, for bothering you with it basically twice.

[Colorful Arty]

I think I may have backrouted this Black Hole level.

[joshescue18]

I have completed the Comet rank.

[joshescue18]

I have completed the Moon rank.

[joshescue18]

I have completed the Planet rank.

[joshescue18]

I have completed the Sun rank.

[joshescue18]

I have completed the Neutron Star rank.

[joshescue18]

I have completed the Black Hole rank.

[Akseli]

Another pack I'm revisiting now in new formats, I beta tested NepsterLems in January 2016 and played it to some extent after the initial release if I'm deriving my replay time stamps correctly. Now after loads of backroute fixes I've solved 79/111, replays attached. This is the first time I played Moon levels 7-15, they looked a bit daunting at first but turned out to be a lot nicer in the end. I didn't attempt Black Hole levels, because I have still 12 levels unsolved before that final rating, but I still thought of dropping my solutions at this point so they're at least saved here in the forums before my hard drive dies or something. :b

Levels I suspect backrouting: Planet 16: Dying Dream, Neutron Star 10: Broken Pillars, Neutron Star 16: On the Edge of Death

Not quite sure about even some early Planet levels, I'm interested to hear about my solutions when the time comes.

[Strato Incendus]

Okay, I revisited just the final level (Black Hole 21) - pretty much exactly one year after my first attempt - after having been told by Nepster that he doesn't consider it a "good level" (anymore? ) and about his philosophy having changed.

I actually think it's pretty genious - there's always even more skills which are locked in the place where they have to be used than one would think . As far as X-of-everything levels are concerned, this is as good as they're going to get!

Spoiler

Also, once one has a grasp of the core philosophy "avoid using builders whenever you can use terrain instead", it's a lot less intimidating.

The only thing that makes it "not a good level" is the RIDICULOUS pixel precision required all over it!

Spoiler

One pixel that determines whether a blocker can be freed or not, whether a fall is lethal or not, thereby requiring an extra skill to reduce the height, whether lemmings can gain enough height by stepping over an obstacle without being turned around...

I repeatedly had to rewind over half the level for such execution-based mistakes, despite knowing exactly what I had to do conception-wise (given that rewinding is supposed to be used only for conceptual mistakes).

This is especially annoying since it forces you to do very fiddly stuff over and over again, like basher-digger staircases, or miners going through multiple obstacles connected by builders.

I've attached to replays, both centered around the core issue of how to deal with the pillars at the exit. As far as I can tell, I did exactly what IchoTolot did at this place...

Spoiler

...but the final staircase still is not high enough to reach the exit.

In one solution, I even had a miner to spare, because it didn't end up mattering whether I left a piece of the pillar intact (like IchoTolot), or whether I built from the steel ground - neither of the two approaches managed to gain sufficient height.

I know from my own levels that pixel precision can be unintended, but in the last level of a pack, I doubt it . Since this is the type of pixel precision that can prevent a solution from being successful even when it's conceptually correct, I have to object to IchoTolot's praise of this level as a prime example of "fair" difficulty.

[IchoTolot]

Since this is the type of pixel precision that can prevent a solution from being successful even when it's conceptually correct, I have to object to IchoTolot's praise of this level as a prime example of "fair" difficulty.

I think you don't understand what I personally define as "fair".

Pixel precision is fair, even if you have to rewind all of the level due to an unprecise mistake. Is it good? Certainly not, we want to prevent these things.
Is a timer unfair that cuts tons of solutions of by 1 second? No, but it's still bad.

I call levels unfair that actively hide stuff from the players eye. Hidden traps, hidden pick-up-skills etc.

Overall my praise to the level partly comes from a developed automated optimisation playstyle. Over the years I got used to automatically find and go for an ~optimal route, purely in terms of reaching the goal. This isn't always the intended one of course and it's only optimal in my current view of the level.
That way I don't mind having to do a bunch of very precise actions, as a bunch of them I do intuitively.
Does it anger me when I have to rewind a lot? Yes and I will criticise it.
Does it anger me when there is an excessive ammount of very precise actions? At some threshhold yes and I will point that out.

Also I learned to use the things at my disposal (skill shadows, save-states) to nullify the precision and rewinding to an ammount. Well placed save-states at critical points in time and making good use of replay insert can help quite a bit.

It's also the general layout of the level that made me forgive the faults and I can highly advertise those for your huge levels:
- Mostly contained crowds (only 1 active crowd would be optimal and if there are more active ones let them be close)
- No timer
- No extensive need for multitasking
- You only have to watch 1 area at the same time. --> less scrolling
These traits fit for this level, therefore making me forgive the precision.

In the end I just loved puzzeling my way through this level while doing stuff as optimised as possible.
+ The fact that it's the last boss level of a very difficult pack makes me somewhat more forgiving, but still there is a threshhold for that.

[Strato Incendus]

It's also the general layout of the level that made me forgive the faults and I can highly advertise those for your huge levels:
- Mostly contained crowds (only 1 active crowd would be optimal and if there are more active ones let them be close)
- No timer
- No extensive need for multitasking
- You only have to watch 1 area at the same time. --> less scrolling
These traits fit for this level, therefore making me forgive the precision.

Thanks for the advice! All those things happen to be the case for most of my levels from Lemmings World Tour already, though. Of course, the players are always free to bring multitasking on themselves , but especially in "The Grand Puzzle", which took a lot of inspirations from "Final Frustration", the crowds are usually easily containable as well. Contrary to late Mayhem levels, it's not that there aren't enough blockers to contain all the different crowds - it's the question of how to free all those blockers in the end again, because everyone has to be saved (or, in case of "The Grand Puzzle", you're only allowed 1 death).

That's also the reason why attempting a level like "Final Frustration" is more fun to me than timing-based levels with deliberately oddly-shaped terrain where crowd control is next to impossible.

Still, the rewinding is mainly a pain in combination with the overall duration of the level. It's not the duration per se, nor is it the fact of having to rewind due to pixel precision, but the combination of both makes things exponentially worse . With every restart, you're sitting there for quite a while holding down the space bar until you arrive back at the time stamp your currently working on. Or you're asking yourself "What's faster at this point - rewinding in 1-second-steps, or starting from the beginning in 10-second-steps?"

I already saved several replays manually (since the two I attached were ultimately not successful, i.e. not automatically saved). Replay editing helps, but at one point when I edited out a specific skill and left the rest as it was, a builder still ended up being misplaced.

[Nepster]

I actually think it's pretty genious - there's always even more skills which are locked in the place where they have to be used than one would think . As far as X-of-everything levels are concerned, this is as good as they're going to get!

I am very happy you liked the level. But that doesn't alter the fact, that my own taste changed...

The only thing that makes it "not a good level" is the RIDICULOUS pixel precision required all over it!

Sorry, but most of the precision is self-inflicted.
1) There is actually not a single place, where lemmings have to step up more than 4 pixels, as long as you don't care about the talisman.
2) There is actually no fall, that requires something close to the maximal fall height.
3) While basher-digger-staircases do help, my own solution uses just two steps like this.
4) Given that the miner-shadows now take blockers into account, placing them to free blockers is fairly easy.
Yes, of course you can do all of that, but removing the possibility of doing this (or at least trying to do) is simply beyond my designing skills in such a 20-of-everything level.

I've attached to replays, both centered around the core issue of how to deal with the pillars at the exit. As far as I can tell, I did exactly what IchoTolot did at this place...

Spoiler

...but the final staircase still is not high enough to reach the exit.

Spoiler

I hoped the height of the central tower would make it clear, that 4 builders just don't suffice and you actually need five there. But apparently not...

I know from my own levels that pixel precision can be unintended, but in the last level of a pack, I doubt it .

Pixel precision is never put there on purpose. It might be, that I simply couldn't avoid it or that I failed miserably to discourage pixel-precise attempts. But I certainly never left it in there, just to make the level harder or to annoy my players - and for this it doesn't make any difference, whether the level is the very first or very last level in the pack.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for the reply, Nepster!

Spoiler

Sorry, but most of the precision is self-inflicted.

So it's like with my solution to "Jump in the Ring"? I think I never even really got to see the intended solution for "Final Frustration"; IchoTolot has uploaded two different approaches to it, although the second one still has a lot in common with the first one. And I have yet to see anyone else solve it!

1) There is actually not a single place, where lemmings have to step up more than 4 pixels, as long as you don't care about the talisman.

Might be a place for me to use the spare miner then, which I had available in one of the two replays.

2) There is actually no fall, that requires something close to the maximal fall height.

Well, it turned out lucky that I didn't need an additional miner at that central square thing to lower the fall height of the digger shaft - other times I did...

4) Given that the miner-shadows now take blockers into account, placing them to free blockers is fairly easy.

I was specifically talking about that T-shaped ledge where I placed a blocker to turn around the climbers. One pixel earlier, and the climber already turns around while falling, thereby making it impossible to free the blocker. One pixel later, and the miner leaves a pixel of terrain there that maintains the ledges fatal fall height rather than removing it when freeing the blocker. That would necessitate an additional miner or digger, which I don't have at that point.

I hoped the height of the central tower would make it clear, that 4 builders just don't suffice and you actually need five there. But apparently not...

Well, thanks, at least that's a frustration-sparing hint that allows me to stop messing around with the execution of this and look for how to save a builder elsewhere.

So is IchoTolot's solution a backroute then? Because the managed to go up the shaft with four builders, plus dig-mining a bit off the pillars, and the fifth builder then only was required to get to the platform with the exit.

[kaywhyn]

Currently playing through this levelpack. Finished the first 3 ranks and currently on Sun 4. Wow, what mind-boggling levels. Making slow but steady progress. If it already gets this difficult at the beginning of Sun, I can't imagine how difficult the last two ranks will be. As a matter of fact, Planet 13 managed to stump me and I took a break from the pack for a few weeks before coming back to the pack today and managing to beat the level in an unusually fiddly way. Replay attached.

Spoiler

Planet 13 - While I still ended up using all the skills except for a few climbers, this required extreme precise timing in order to close the gap after all the lemmings are above the bridge currently in progress but before they fall past and splat. When I watched Icho's replay of this level on Youtube, it really surprised me that it's possible to build through the thin floor with just one builder. I think I kept trying to see if that was possible but the lemming kept hitting his head and so I gave up and didn't come back to this level and the levelpack for a few weeks. Tbh I'm surprised that my solution works but I solved the level in a much harder way. As a matter of fact, it really appears in the replay that the last climber isn't supposed to get past the completed builder bridge, like it glitched through it or something. In any case, when it comes to solving levels, any solution that works is good enough for me. 

Also curious with the attached image of Sun 2, the first Tomb Raider level. This also applies to Sun 3, as it's the exact same level but with one extra builder and one less basher. I was able to solve both levels before watching Icho's replays, but in both levels, the arrows on the OWWs are pointing in the wrong direction. I got so confused why I couldn't bash in the direction of the arrows, but it does work when I bash against the direction shown, so I was still able to solve Sun 2. When I watched Icho's replay of Sun 2, the arrows are pointing in the correct direction, so it turns out that the direction of the arrows are shown incorrectly when I played through the level. This is v2 in Neolemmix 12.8.2. The engine told me updates to styles were available today and to update them via the style manager, which I did do earlier today by clicking on Update All. If it's due to an update, not sure why it would be the cause. Can someone else check if this level also has the arrows pointing in the wrong direction? If so, then I'll know that I'm the only one who has the problem.

Edit: Just checked Sun 2 today and it seems the arrows are now displayed properly when playing the level. So, was it something with the level or was it just me? Come to think of it, I did restart my computer several times between the time of this post and just before today, so maybe that fixed it? Also, I just checked the marble levels from earlier in the pack and the arrows on the OWWs are correct, and I'm not close to finishing the pack, but most likely the arrows are fine in the rest of the pack.

[kaywhyn]

Unreal! I have finally beaten Sun 7 - Scrap the Builders from Nepsterlems, the level I was stuck on for a really long time! Until now, I had beaten every level up to Sun 7. See attached replay. According to the date of this replay and the date of the previous level, I was stuck on Sun 7 just a little over 5 months, which is an additional month longer than the time I was stuck on Neutrality 41 of United. Oh well, I finally solved this extremely brutal level.

My first impression from the save 30 out of 40 lemmings requirement was "can lose up to 10? That's pretty generous." However, as it turns out it's not generous at all, as there's literally no room for error on the level. Besides figuring out how to get the bottom crowd up, the hardest part for me was avoiding losing so many to the needle traps, as they just trigger way too fast. For the very first time last night, I finally figured out how to get both the top and bottom crowds to the exit, only to find to my disappointment that I was 4 short of the requirement. I fiddled around and tweaked my solution a bit and by adjusting a miner assignment going in the other direction, I was able to do 1 better, but it was still a no solve. I was wondering that I don't think I can improve my result any further without losing too many to the needle traps on either side, but I decided to call it a night. I almost wanted to give up and probably attach my best replays for namida and Icho to see and possibly ask for a hint. Just before I dozed off in bed, I was literally thinking that the needle traps are evil and thought why did Nepster have to include them when the level is already really hard anyway. If they weren't there, I already would had passed the level. Then again, it would make the level a lot easier instead of it being very difficult to the extreme, so why remove them?

Determined not to give up, I just took another look at the level and had another go at it starting an hour ago. I realized that I can indeed improve my result.

Spoiler

I had to time the first miner and basher in such a way that when I bounce the miner with a blocker, that only one lemming is nearby to release the basher with a digger. Likely the position of a blocker on the ramp leading up to the exit is necessary to tweak as well. Not only that, when bouncing the miner, it had to be in a position such that the miner makes a tiny hole that would allow me to bomb close to the wall after a lemming falls two pixels so that the bottom crowd can get up. All of this was really hard to do, as the timing is extremely difficult, and I had to constantly rewind and adjust which lemming bashes. Once, I got two lemmings to be behind the basher but then one would get killed by the needles trap. With this one, my result was improved to being 2 lemmings short, due to the 2nd miner being too far from the bunched up crowd.

Finally, I had success with getting only one lemming behind the basher such that it turns around in the basher tunnel and could release the basher interrupted midstroke assigned a blocker with a digger. The only tricky part left was making sure the 2nd miner isn't that far behind from the bunched up crowd. If it was, then I would still be a lemming short. However, I finally succeeded with getting the miner bunched up with the crowd, and thus level finally solved!

In any case, now that I finally managed to solve the level after 5 months and how I struggled tremendously with it, I'm in absolute agreement with namida and Icho that Sun 7 is way too hard for its position. In addition, so far I've been struggling a lot with all the Sun levels, so if the rank has been really difficult for me since the start, I can't imagine how much trouble I'll have in the Neutron Star and Black Hole ratings when I get to them.

Well, as I got up really early, I'm quite tired, so I'm off to bed some more before proceeding onward with the pack. At least I can sleep satisfactorily now knowing that I finally beat Sun 7. In the meantime, I'll be watching namida's and Icho's Youtube video solution of the level to compare mine with theirs.

[ericderkovits]

Yes, I just watched the replay on Scrap the builders. The replay I Have shows that 32 of 40 were saved, so 2 over the requirement. Also Yes I can see that being out of place.

[IchoTolot]

In addition, so far I've been struggling a lot with all the Sun levels, so if the rank has been really difficult for me since the start, I can't imagine how much trouble I'll have in the Neutron Star and Black Hole ratings when I get to them.

In my experience the pack gets to the hard stuff very quickly, but it doesn't get too much harder once you got over the shock. Don't get me wrong, it still gets harder and there are 100% really hard nuts in the last 2 ranks, but compared to other packs the difficulty curve is a lot flatter. Well, at least in my experience.

[kaywhyn]

I just watched the replays that are available for Sun 7. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA as expected, out of all the solutions I've seen, mine is the most difficult of all, as well as the most unintuitive. So far, mine is the only one that goes through the area with the needle traps. On top of all that, aside from two of the blockers, every assignment needs extreme pixel precision and is extremely timing heavy and dependent. Seriously, why do I persist with finding such very difficult solutions for hard levels? In addition, mine meets the save requirement exactly, while all the rest managed to go over it, with the best one being 4 over by Icho. Icho's and josh's are pretty much the same, although the latter lost two lemmings to the bottomless pit because he forgot to place blockers. Ok, forget what I said about the save requirement not being very generous. After watching Icho's solution, I instantly went "oh gosh, I can't believe I never ever saw that. So much easier and cleaner." At the same time, I think regardless of the solution you use, none are particularly easy or trivial to find. Especially with namida's, I never would had come up with using a

Spoiler

small digger pit and a blocker inside it to make the crowd turn back to the right, as my thought would be that surly it won't work at all, but his solution does require some extreme precision.

In my experience the pack gets to the hard stuff very quickly, but it doesn't get too much harder once you got over the shock. Don't get me wrong, it still gets harder and there are 100% really hard nuts in the last 2 ranks, but compared to other packs the difficulty curve is a lot flatter. Well, at least in my experience.

Thanks for the input. That's reassuring Maybe it won't be so bad then, but that remains to be seen for me.

Anyway, it was cool to see other solutions to this very brutal level. Onward for me in a few hours.   

[kaywhyn]

All rightie, after 5 months the Sun rank has finally fallen. Replays attached up through the Sun rank. Up to this point in the pack, I have to say the most difficult levels so far for me were Planet 13 - 50% is not enough!, Sun 7 - Scrap the Builders, Sun 12 - Death of a Working Lemming and Sun 20 - Empty Walls, although the last two were nowhere near as hard as the brutal Sun 7. I thought both Sun 12 and Sun 20 were hard due to the fact that the solutions in each one are difficult to spot, with the latter the way more difficult one. Also, I thought that the levels after the extremely brutal Sun 7 were much easier, although I guess the level immediately after, Sun 8 - Minimalistic Platforms was somewhat hard, but since there's only 2 different skills, a blocker and 5 builders, it's tricky more than difficult given the timing.

In particular, the 1-of-everything levels in this rank, Sun 4 - Just a Quickie!, Sun 11 - It's Hero Time Again!, and Sun 20 really stand out as being difficult, with Sun 4 probably the most difficult of the three due to the extremely strict time limit, only 30 seconds. Without it, it's a really easy level, but the time limit really ramps up the difficulty considerably. Of course, in Dos and Lemmini this isn't a problem, as the amount of minutes can only be an integer, which means it has to be given at least a 1 minute time limit in those engines.

I've noticed that a lot of the levels in the Sun rank were small in size, being only about a screen wide, but they were still hard levels. It goes to show that small levels may look easy in appearance, but they can be surprisingly hard. Indeed, don't expect to solve through the pack very quickly! The levels get hard starting with the Planet rank, and they get harder really fast. The Planet rank is the first rank after the X-of-everything levels in the Comet and Moon ranks, 5-of-everything in the former rank, 10-of-everything in the latter rank. Even the other levels I didn't list were challenges, and my progress slowed considerably starting in the Planet rank.

In any case, after I solved the Sun levels on my own, I compared my solutions to those of Icho's on Youtube. I find it quite amusing that in almost every level in the rank, I was able to save a skill(s), while Icho used all of them. For example, in Sun 9 - Silence on Earth, I have a blocker leftover, Sun 11 I have a floater leftover, Sun 13 - Cannonballs in the Air I have a bomber leftover, Sun 15 - Revival of the Lost I have a blocker leftover, Sun 16 - The Marble Temple I have two miners leftover, and Sun 18 -Five Survive, I have a climber leftover. That's 6 levels where I did better in skill usage. I swear, I wasn't even trying to be more efficient in my solutions than Icho was. I couldn't be, since I only watch solution videos after I beat the level first, so I was quite surprised I ended up saving skills on many levels compared to him in the Sun rank. On the flip side, he was much better in skill usage than me on both Sun 10 - We All Dig Down! and Sun 19 - Just a random heap of junk!. I especially love his solution to Sun 7. It's definitely the easiest and cleanest solution I've seen to the level which escaped me completely. I think Sun 20 was the only level after Sun 7 where we had the exact same solution.

Finally, Icho's solution to Sun 4 might not work (key word: might) in the current NL version, since lemmings no longer can exit when the time limit runs out. In it, the last lemming exits exactly when the timer hits 0. So, I got to say that my solution is more efficient in that I have 3 seconds left on the clock, although it's not a trivial solution at all. Also, in Sun 12, I managed to save an extra.

edit: I just watched Icho's replay. Yup, the timer hits 0 at the exact moment the last lemming finishes exiting (easiest way is for the last lemming to exit and then use the N key until you hear the ringing alarm), but the game still gave him the credit for passing the level. Wow, imagine if it was one frame too late instead.

Well, onto the Neutron Star rank, the second to last rank of the pack. Already nervous about what the rank has in store, particularly if the Sun rank was any indication. In particular, every level up to Sun 7, inclusive, were all difficult and tricky, while the levels after Sun 7 generally got a bit easier, although not by much. Here goes nothing! 

[ericderkovits]

Good job Kaywhyn passing Sun 7, even though I have all the replays for NepsterLems I still downloaded yours(I always like to compare yours to others). I looked at your solution for Sun 7, It's quite a bit different than the one I have. Also the one I had saved 32 instead of 30, but I tweeked the one I had so now it saves 4 over the required, since the replay I had 2 were lost that shouldn't have been lost.



Now since you passed Sun 7, here is the solution I have for it.

[kaywhyn]

Hey eric, I know you appreciate replays from me for the pack even though you already have a complete set. I, too, love to compare my solutions to others. Most of the time, I seem to have made the solution more difficult than was necessary. I think I know which solution you're referring to. josh's solution is the one that loses two lemmings unnecessarily. I guess he forgot to block at the ends at the top and bottom. And yes, mine is completely different in that mine is the only one that goes through the needle trap area. Not only that, mine is the most difficult solution because it is completely timing dependent. Bash too early and you won't be able to release the blocker with a digger and mine out the bottom crowd. Bash too late and same thing. Similarly, put the first miner even slightly earlier or later and you won't be able to rescue the bottom crowd. Obviously, I don't recommend anyone my solution for Sun 7 other than maybe a "wow, this person has a crazy solution for Sun 7" reaction. It is still a wonder how the much easier solutions managed to escape me on that level.

As usual, be on the lookout for when I post my Neutron Star and Black Hole replays when I finish each rank.   

[IchoTolot]

Finally, Icho's solution to Sun 4 might not work (key word: might) in the current NL version, since lemmings no longer can exit when the time limit runs out.

That makes no difference. Lemmings that enter after the timer went down did not count before. I also can confirm that my replay still works.

[kaywhyn]

That makes no difference. Lemmings that enter after the timer went down did not count before. I also can confirm that my replay still works.

Yea, I made an edit to my post before you posted this

edit: I just watched Icho's replay. Yup, the timer hits 0 at the exact moment the last lemming finishes exiting (easiest way is for the last lemming to exit and then use the N key until you hear the ringing alarm), but the game still gave him the credit for passing the level. Wow, imagine if it was one frame too late instead.

Specifically, in your replay the lemming finishes exiting AND the timer reaches 0 at the exact same moment, so it's not a case of lemmings entering the exit after the timer hits 0. It's not a case of before reaching the exit either. It's right on the dot. But yes, your replay still works because the game still credited you with a "pass." This tells me that it's still a success as long as one of two things happens, either you met or exceeded the save requirement before the time runs out, or you met or exceeded the save requirement AND the timer runs out at the exact same moment. This is good to know, though, and certainly something I didn't know about before in what NL considers a success! It's kind of like in the same way it doesn't matter if you're not able to nuke all lemmings before time runs out. It's a pass as long as you met or exceed the save requirement when the time runs out or both happen at the same moment.

[kaywhyn]

And, the Neutron Star rank has fallen! Replays attached. Despite being the second to last rank, I thought the Neutron Star rank was much easier than the Sun rank. The levels still required some thought, but they didn't seem anywhere near as hard as the Sun levels and so solving time seemed a lot faster than the Sun rank levels. Took me less than 2 days to finish the NS rank. Then again, it took me about the same amount of time for the Sun rank after I was finally able to get past Sun 7.

The hardest levels for me in the Neutron Star rank were Neutron Star 7 - Divide and Conquer and Neutron Star 9 - A Ticket to Hell.

Spoiler

The former is a 2-of-everything level, where due to the save requirement it is possible to completely ignore one entrance. Indeed, in my replay I ignored the left-most entrance, but the level was still really difficult. The main reason I ignored it was due to me not being able to figure out how to solve that area with the least amount of skills. The hardest part in the latter was figuring out how to get both crowds down safely. In the end, mine is a variation of Icho's solution where I don't bash all the way completely with the top right crowd.

Neutron Star 1 - Hope and Despair is a really nice, tricky level to start off the ranking with a somewhat difficult to spot solution. Mine almost fails as I think maybe only a pixel less and the non-floater wouldn't had survived. Indeed, my solution was very timing based and I made the end part more difficult than was necessary.

Neutron Star 4 - Cliff Jumpers is not hard, but it is tricky despite being a 5-of-everything level. Almost sounds like a Reunion level, only I believe the level is called Roofjumpers instead. Still, both levels are appropriately named.

Surely my solution to Neutron Star 11 -Freedom in the Firelight is not intended, since it's possible to shortcut it the way I did and thus I have 2 miners leftover plus a few other skills left.

My most favorite level of the rank would have to be Neutron Star 17 - Poor Lemming No. 6. I really love the solution, and the level title is a big hint and key to solving the level.

Finally, the rank finisher Neutron Star 20 - Time Gate is much easier than the previous rank finisher. Sun 20 is much harder. If anything, these two levels probably should switch positions.

Well, onward to the Black Hole ranking, the last rank and the final 21 levels of the pack where I'll probably get stumped for quite a while. I think I'll be surprised if I can solve any of the levels in this rank. Here goes!

[ericderkovits]

Thanks Kaywhyn I downloaded your replay for Neutron Star.

[Armani]

I've played Nepsterlem recently. I've definitely enjoyed a lot. It was my firm belief that it is almost impossible to make difficult levels only with classic 8 skills, but certainly nepsterlem has many tricky levels and they all provide only classic 8 skills.

Many people already post their own solutions, so here I upload only talisman replays except for comet rank.

[kaywhyn]

Nice job, Armani! I still haven't finished the pack, but that's because I've been stuck since reaching the Black Hole rank. After finishing United, I came back to this pack and after a lot of struggling finally got myself unstuck on Sun 7. The next few days I was able to cruise along until reaching my current roadblock of BH 1. I've occasionally came back and see if I could get myself unstuck, but I still haven't been successful in getting past BH 1 yet. At this point, I think it'll be an amazing accomplishment if I can solve even just one level from the BH rank.

I've played Nepsterlem recently. I've definitely enjoyed a lot. It was my firm belief that it is almost impossible to make difficult levels only with classic 8 skills, but certainly nepsterlem has many tricky levels and they all provide only classic 8 skills.

Another thing the levels in this pack have shown is that most of them are quite small in size, usually only about a screen wide or a little bit extra, and how they can still be deceivingly tough. In other words, small levels have the tendency to look easy but can still be quite tough. I say a good example is Sun 20. It's a surprisingly tough 1-of-everything level on top of being a very small level. That one had me stuck for almost 2 hours, nowhere near as long as Sun 7.

Also, I'm not sure if this is true, but I'm of the opinion that levels that only provide the 8 classic skills tend to be much easier than those that provide even 1 or a few NL exclusive skills in addition to the classic skills or even those that provide NL only skills. The reason why I think this is so is because pretty much everyone here is extremely familiar with how the 8 classic skills work, whereas the NL skills are not as familiar, although most of them come from L2. The only new ones that don't come from any of the official games are the cloner and disarmer. Even then, it's just a matter of familiarizing oneself with the mechanics of the skills and the possible synergies/combinations and how the skills can interact with one another so that over time my original statement becomes less true. What's probably more difficult is making levels that use only the NL exclusive skills and no classic skills. Say, that might be a pretty good idea for a level pack. Although, I have a feeling that making such a pack will be extremely difficult and will result in not a great variety of levels, eg, not that many levels that require constructive skills to get up the level, considering that the platformer doesn't add height at all, and the only ways to get up are stackers, gliders with updrafts, and fencers. To a smaller extent, jumpers and shimmiers as well. Theoretically, it can be done, but to make such an excellent pack will be quite a task.

[kaywhyn]

It's finally happened: After being stuck on it for almost 3 years, since my last post in this topic, I finally solved Black Hole 1! This morning, while lying in bed, I was just staring at the level image I have saved on my phone for probably close to half an hour, couldn't see anything new I haven't yet tried the entire time, but shortly after I closed my eyes to sleep some more, the realization hit me, and I quickly went to try it out. That was indeed the thing I missed this whole time, but now I just needed to tweak it so it worked.

Spoiler

The basher near the exit that allows one to come back to the right and faller bomb away the wall for the others was the key thing I missed during the almost 3 years I was stuck on this level Before this, I kept doing it all from the right side, and in the end I would have a basher remaining, but to my annoyance and chagrin, at the spot where you can get them down, they fall a pixel before the pole next to the exit

There are so many distracting red herrings here that can easily trip you up, such as the many gaps that are too far away by a pixel to be able to reach with the builder. In particular, the floater and 7 save requirement really distracted and bothered me, and it turns out the floater isn't needed at all!

I seriously feel so dumb that it even took me this long before I finally solved Black Hole 1, when I think all the others who solved it only needed 1-2 hours at the most to get it solved. That's why I don't necessarily feel proud even though I finally solved the level without hints after so long. It's a bit shameful really, as there are much harder packs than this that I was able to solve in a far less amount of time than it took me this level. In any case, the level kept haunting me in my sleep ever since I posted my rant about the level in my blog topic on this site, but I can finally stop crying at night now that I finally got the level solved. Also, the record for the custom level that had me stuck the longest remains Gronkling's "Mystery Machine" level from RotL on the Lemmini version. This level of Nepster's was closely approaching that, but I got it solved before the time could eclipse that.

Well, I can finally move on with the rest of the rank and hopefully solve the remaining levels of the pack!

[kaywhyn]

Black Hole rank finally completed and hence I have solved all of Nepsterlems after 3 years! I have attached my entire replay collection. I've already gave feedback on the other ranks, so this post will just be for the Black Hole rank

Black Hole Rank Feedback

Being the final rank of the pack, it supposedly should have all the hardest levels of the pack. However, TBH this rank was a bit of a letdown, as I expected far more of a challenge! Especially if Nepster's description of the rank is anything to go by. After having gone through this entire rank after 3 years, I definitely struggled far more with the Sun and Neutron Star ranks. Then again, the time when I went through the 4th and 5th ranks was at a time when Nepsterlems was my 4th/5th NL custom level pack, meaning I wasn't as experienced back then. Therefore, roadblocks came up very often for me. In contrast, from the first time I reached Black Hole 1 from way back in 2020 and being stuck on that level for almost 3 years and finally having solved it earlier in the week, I have played and solved so many level packs in this time period and therefore have gained a lot of experience. This likely explains why I didn't struggle too much with the Black Hole rank. Don't get me wrong, there are still some very tough nuts to crack in this rank, but some of the levels had me wondering what the heck are they doing in the Black Hole rank, as I didn't find them that hard at all. Of course, I can still see these levels will be challenging for the less experienced players and hence they do belong in this rank. At the same time, I backrouted some of these levels and therefore some of them are easier than they should be.

It does go without saying that some of the 4th/5th rank levels could be upranked to Black Hole. For example, Icho mentions that Sun 7 - Scrap the Builders should be upranked to Black Hole, and I massively agree with him! Pretty much everyone I know who has solved it had a lot of struggles with it, including myself, though I was stuck there for only a month or so, nowhere near as long as Black Hole 1.

Spoiler

Black Hole 1 - Thin Layers Ok, I was probably the biggest dummy here, as it apparently took me 3 years to get this solved! The solution isn't that difficult once you do figure it out, but there was one spot that I failed to realize for 3 years, which is the junction in the upper left where you can bash with the climber, who then goes back to the right to faller bomb the wall away for the others. Before this, I kept doing everything from the right side, leaving me a basher for the end, but to my annoyance and chagrin, at the very top, this makes everyone fall a pixel before the pole next to the exit Thus began the very long struggle on this level. There's also a lot of red herrings that look like they could work but they don't. Thus, the solution is very well-hidden, but it's in plain sight.

Even though I managed to finally get the level solved without hints after almost 3 years, I'm not necessarily proud of this. It's a great level and all, but I can't believe how dumb I was this entire time

Black Hole 2 - Lament of Innocence I originally solved this with the very fiddly basher/blocker trick where the basher turns around but the blocker still gets released, at a time when I got frustrated with not being able to figure out Black Hole 1 and hence I was curious about the next level. So, when I finally did reach this level for real after getting Black Hole 1 solved, I decided to look for another way to solve the level without the very fiddly trick. No luck, but I was pretty certain it is possible. Just that my near successful attempts would get the climber into danger. So, I slept it off for about 2 hours or so, especially as I was quite tired from not enough sleep from the night before, but shortly after I closed my eyes, I realized it was just simply interrupt the miner with a builder shortly after he makes a hole for the climber to get up and not fall back down and splat. Not a very hard level, but still somewhat deceptively challenging.

Black Hole 3 - The Rule of the One In contrast to the previous two levels, I solved this one very quickly. It is a bit fiddly, but as there's a long walkway it delays them enough to allow the floater enough time to bash and build to the exit. It even saves 1 over the requirement

Black Hole 4 - Gray Walls Another very quick solve here. Looks difficult, but it really wasn't that bad at all. Even though I found this easy, I can still see this one being difficult, as it's not easy to figure out the best way to navigate the level and construct the route.

Black Hole 5 - Cracked Stones I found this one somewhat challenging but a pretty good one. it took me about a good half hour or so. I realized what the intended solution must be while trying something that I think would work but wasn't as certain about. Indeed, it's quite fiddly and involves RR tweaking. I'm not even sure why I thought it would work, the miner taking a stroke at the right time when the climber comes so that he turns around but the miner still makes a hole for him to fall out to the left. So, it's nice to know that it is indeed possible, but again it's very fiddly. I pretty much had most of the level figured out, with the hardest part being to figure out how to get a climber to mine out the crowd. It's also hard to see who is the sacrifice here.

Black Hole 6 - Deep Frozen Misery Harder than I thought it would be. I figured out how to make the splatforms and all, but I would always be a lemming short. Checking Icho's solution, it seems that I overcomplicated the solution a little bit.

Black Hole 7 - The Everclimbing Lemming Sorry Nepster, backrouted this I still found this one challenging.

Black Hole 8 - Moonshine Trio The hardest part is certainly figuring out how to rescue one of the blockers at the very top. Indeed, this was somewhat of a quick solve, but it still took me time to realize that the left blocker needs to be near the digger tunnel so that the climber will climb up, turn around and then before he falls back down you need to make him dig so that he releases the blocker. The other hard part is making the builder and miner cross at about the same time. Nice level, though!

Black Hole 9 - Mining Company Very hard level but an excellent level and a favorite of mine! It looks impossible on first glance, especially with the high RR, but it's all about knowing how to use the miners. The trick of using a second miner so that no one can go into the first one isn't new to me, as I learned this from playing United. It's just a bit hard to use because of the somewhat small platform size. Very difficult timing. Well done here, Nepster!

Black Hole 10 - Ploughing the Fields Easy one, but again I can still see this one being challenging for less experienced players. It's all about knowing how to stall the crowd long enough to give the worker enough time to build over the gaps and then make a path to the exit before they catch up. I really like the making a pit on the far right first and then bash towards the entrance, and then another digger pit close to the entrance in order to stop the basher going to the left. This one needs to go lower so that you can bash all the way through to the right.

Black Hole 11 - Woodworld I found this one very hard. The solution came to me after about 20 minutes or so, but it was all about working out the timing so that no one gets into danger. Mine is quite fiddly and a bit more complicated than it needs to be. Nice level nevertheless! I especially like the digging with the first climber and then the second climber is able to bash all the way to the left so that you can get through multiple obstacles with just one skill. Any other way would leave you at least a skill short.

Black Hole 12 - 9/11 Somewhat hard, but it seems I solved the level unintended for the most part, so it's probably a backroute backroute but it's likely still acceptable as I still use all the skills. The second entrance from the left is certainly the hardest to manage as they're the only ones headed towards danger while the others are already contained.

Black Hole 13 - Another Generic Title Somewhat hard as well, though this one was fairly quick in terms of solving time. In one of my earlier attempts, I wouldn't be able to isolate a lemming far enough ahead of the others to build to the exit before anyone slipped by. Then I found a way to do so with absolutely no timing needed. Great level here!

Black Hole 14 - Bashing & Building Nice level, though once again this trick of interrupting the builder at the right time with a basher isn't new to me, as I learned this from United as well. I suspect that this level might had taken me longer had I not learned this trick elsewhere first. However, as my experience shows, it still wasn't automatic even though I learned the trick from another level pack. It still took me a good 20 minutes before I realized this trick is needed and solving the level.

Reading that this took Icho a week surprises me, as he's pretty much like the best solver there is in this Lemmings community, but it does make sense. The reason is simple: The trick was new to him at the time, therefore that's why he got stumped here for a long time.

Black Hole 15 - HangLem I would probably consider this the hardest level in the rank. It's not clear how to achieve the compression needed to be able to get through the traps so that only one dies to each one. It's obvious you need 8 of them clumped up enough for the lucky one to reach the exit, but how to do so is the hardest to figure out. My solution is another very fiddly one, and I even managed it with 9 running the gauntlet and without using the digger. This probably means it is possible to save 2, but I'm not certain. Even then, I'm not too much of a fan of this level as well due to the fiddlyness.

Black Hole 16 - Devil's Right Hand Harder than it looks, but it's still not very hard. My earlier attempts had me max out the RR and use the last two to get down the middle to make a splatform and build over the gap, but when I bash through the OWW on the right, at least one kept turning around since he didn't get through the wall yet. Instead, it was hard to see to make the splatform at the bottom on the far right. I also built over the bomber hole giving the builder at the bottom enough time to make the splatform. Nice level nevertheless!

Black Hole 17 - Fall and never Live! A bit hard but once again not super hard. Yet another fiddly solution I came up with The hardest part for me was figuring out how to stop the athlete from going to the exit before he's had a chance to make another splatform near the bottom, but it was just a simple non-athlete blocker to do so.

Black Hole 18 - Lemming Mayhem Somewhat easy but a great level. The hardest part of the solution to see here is maxing out the RR to get one past the trap. The rest of the level is easy.

Black Hole 19 - One minute of action Another backroute, I'm afraid Not a very hard level but not a trivial one either.

Black Hole 20 - The Deadly Rooms of Lem Even though I use all the skills here, it might still be a backroute? My solution is very different from Icho's. This one is definitely harder than either of the previous two levels.

Black Hole 21 - Final Frustration To round off the pack is a very wide 20-of-everything level. This is definitely one of the hardest X-of-everything levels I have ever played, especially since you need to save everyone on top of it all! It's extremely difficult to find the most efficient route that wouldn't use too many skills in any area. I came quite close in some of my earlier attempts, only to find that I've ran out of a very useful skill and therefore wouldn't be able to make it a solve. I especially found the builders the most problematic to optimize. Really great challenging level to finish the rank and the pack!

For the record, I've played several Final Frustration type levels before solving this one. In particular, one from Gigalem's ghost pack, the final level of Strato's LWT, and the final main level of GGF.

Having finally solved all of Nepsterlems, I hereby declare this one of the best packs I've played! In addition, I have now cleared out my entire backlog of levels I couldn't solve, meaning I've been able to solve every NL level I've played thus far. This is certainly not to brag, especially as there have still been some to have stumped me for a while, but rather given enough time I can solve these levels. I still consider myself nowhere near the best solver even though I have completed some of the hardest level packs, including Lemmings United, Lemmings Plus Omega 2, Lemmings Plus Alpha, and now Nepsterlems, which was pretty much the last very hard level pack I've completed, as the other ones I've mentioned I actually finished them all before Nepsterlems, but that's all courtesy of Black Hole 1 stumping me for almost 3 years. For the record, Lemmings United and Lemmings Plus Alpha I finished them back in 2020, while LPO2 I completed just last month. Lemmings United took an entire year for me to solve everything, Lemmings Plus Alpha took me a few months, and LPO2 took me a few weeks. I checked the timestamps of my replays for Nepsterlems, and I apparently started your pack back in January 2020, during the time when I was playing United and still very far from finishing. So, it apparently has taken me nearly 3.5 years before I finally solved all of Nepsterlems.

Thank you for this pack, Nepster! We here at the Lemmings Forums miss you and hope you're doing ok and that you'll make a return sooner rather than later. Lots has happened during your absence. 

[Swerdis]

Wow, that is great news. My warmest congratulations to you for not only having solved a pack I never dared to start, but also for having solved all these super-hard packs that exist out there so far. If there's nothing left to play right now for you, you could continue creating your own pack

[kaywhyn]

Thank your for your congratulations, Swerdis! As for a future level pack from me, we will see. I don't know if I'll be making one, as I never considered the possibility. However, if it was meant as a suggestion that I try my hand at making one, now I might consider it. Only time will tell. 

[WillLem]

Alternative solution for Planet 20 Pillar of Lemkind