Lemmings Redux [Easy-Medium]

[Proxima]

Welcome to new-formats Lemmings Redux!

If you're new to the Lemmings series and want to get to know the levels that started it all, or if you played the games a long time ago and want to revisit your childhood memories, this might be the pack for you.

Lemmings Redux is a compilation of 160 levels, selected and edited by the community, that are representative of the best of the original Lemmings games. We've cut out most of the levels that had you hold back the crowd and do a lot of building, and the ones that were all about difficulty of execution and timing those pernicious walking bombers. With more regret, a few levels that were fine puzzles but don't work as intended under NeoLemmix mechanics also had to go. The remaining levels have been arranged into a pack that can be played just like one of the original games, starting with simple but fun levels to ease you into the game, and ramping up to fiendish puzzles near the end.

The levels have also been improved and edited. We know these changes won't please everyone, but we've tried to find the best balance between faithfulness to the originals and streamlining the playing experience. Time limits have been removed (except when the time limit is an essential part of the level), lemming counts reduced, hidden traps revealed, and so on. We've also fixed backroutes on some levels, so that the player has to engage with the puzzle, hopefully leading to a greater appreciation of some of the beautiful solutions

All aspects of the pack, from level selection and ordering to the smallest changes, have been decided on by group discussion -- no wonder that it took us 18 months to finish putting the pack together! Early on, bsmith and namida were responsible for coordinating the discussion and compiling the pack according to group consensus; after namida's departure, I took over this role.

Lemmings Redux contains 160 levels, in five ranks of 32 levels each:

Gentle


Let's go to the moon!

Quirky


Haunted botanical garden

Zany


Mutiny on the Bounty

Manic


ROCKY VI

Lunatic


The Great Lemming Caper

Enjoy!

[Proxima]

Attached here is the "sunsoftspecial" music, used by Lunatic 16, Sega FOUR. All other levels use the default tracks.
(Note: Lunatic 16 now uses the "smstitle" music, which is included with NeoLemmix.)

I've made a few changes to the pack since the last version, and I want to get forum feedback on these before we decide that the pack is ready to be included in the NeoLemmix Installer.

Firstly, Manic 11, Oh No! Squish was replaced by Havoc 17, Where Lemmings Dare from ONML, for reasons I went into in this discussion topic. (In short: Oh No! Squish has backroutes that may be unfixable, and Where Lemmings Dare is a well-liked level that may have originally been left out of the Redux pack accidentally.)

I've added four new talismans, bringing the total up to 36:
* PoP YoR ToP: Solve with only bombers
* Where Lemmings Dare: Save 100%
* Water processing plant: Save 100%
* I am A.T.: Save 100%

This has caused some difficulty, since I strongly feel that the talismans for Water processing plant and I am A.T. should be gold, but I also wanted to rank Creature Discomforts back up to gold (which it was originally, and was demoted just because we wanted to have an 8-16-8 split). But that would give the pack 11 gold talismans, and I preferred to have either an 8-16-12 or 8-18-10 split.

So, on discord, Nessy and I have been considering a few different options, but we can't decide between them, so I would really like it if more people gave their opinions on this so we can come to a rough consensus. If necessary, I'll put up a poll.

* Promote Where Lemmings Dare to gold for 8-16-12 (this is the current state of the pack);
* Promote a different silver talisman to gold; Nessy suggests The Great Lemming Caper;
* Demote Cascade to silver for 8-18-10.

[Minim]

BTW this is the first time I'm playing the redux: Great job! I like most of the levels on there and most of the talismans are pretty good too.

Here are some of my opinions for talismans, i.e. the bottom three bullet points:

* In agreement to promote Where Lemmings Dare to gold.
* I personally think that either the Beast level or It's hero time should be promoted to gold instead of The Great Lemming Caper. The former because I was stumped, and the latter because I consider climbers to be as valuable as builders. A no-climber solution is also rare in Lemmings levels that usually require them. Mayhem 7 (Which as far as I know, only works in DOS mechanics) is one of my favourite examples. For the Caper level, I use the no-blocker solution every time I'm asked to solve it. Despite the eye-catching solution, there's too little effort required to get gold.
* Unsure about the demotion of cascade to Silver. I can't remember if I did this or not but one thing is for certain, the 99 release rate doesn't help with the execution, particularly with trapping the lemmings. Looking at the level though, it looks pretty obvious what the solution should be. If there's no consensus however keep this level at gold. Even saving 11 lemmings in Cascade is also quite a challenge.

I also think Quirky 32 should go up to silver, personally because there are so many groups to deal with with so little time. I found the Gentle 11 talisman too easy for silver, because it's only one obstacle, even though the trick needed is pretty impressive to watch. So I'd demote that to bronze.

[Proxima]

The first question is whether to promote Where Lemmings Dare or The Great Lemming Caper. If we promote WLD, then the 12 slots are filled and promoting another level is not on the table -- unless you propose that we promote WLD and one more level and demote Cascade.

In other words, the question is, assuming WLD stays gold, which of these three most deserves to be gold (bearing in mind only one can be): A Beast of a Level, It's hero time or Cascade? It's not clear from your post how you would answer that, so I need a clear answer before I can count your post as a vote. Of course, everyone else is welcome to give their opinions too.

* * *

At the other end, it's certainly possible to promote Quirky 32 (And then there were four) and demote Gentle 11 (Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming), since doing both keeps the numbers the same. Does anyone else think we should do this, or does anyone disagree?

[namida]

I've decided to have a go at all of the talismans under discussion to see what I think of them. I'm not going to focus too much on the numbers, more what I think each one individually should be, but I will list these from easiest to hardest IMO, so feel free to take that into account.

Quirky 32 "And Then There Were Four" (click to show/hide)

This is not a difficult one, it's mostly just a matter of multitasking. Aside from a little bit at the start, you only really need to focus on two groups at any given time, as taking care of them will make a safe path for the others anyway. NeoLemmix features make it easy to undo mistakes, and you've got plenty of surplus skills. This is definitely a bronze.

Gentle 11 "Keep Your Hair On Mr Lemming" (click to show/hide)

I spotted the solution almost right away, but I did rely on a fairly advanced trick for this (the digger-blocker trick). It's definitely very hard relative to the level's normal solution, so I feel silver could be justified here.

Manic 11 "Where Lemmings Dare" (click to show/hide)

This one involves a bit of precision, but it isn't particularly hard relative to just solving the level in the first place. I'd say it's a solid silver.

Lunatic 1 "It's Hero Time" (click to show/hide)

I don't know about anyone else, but for me, this was a slight variation on how I originally solved this level. Though I do understand that my solution isn't a particularly common one. I'd say this works as Silver.

Quirky 31 "Cascade" (click to show/hide)

It's a bit hard to judge this one objectively. It definitely is a lot easier under NeoLemmix, I'll give it that. But the solution is well known now, and at the same time, this level almost has an infamy for being difficult but possible to 100% that can cloud judgement - but I do ultimately think, silver is right for this, though gold is not completely unjustified.

Lunatic 23 "The Great Lemming Caper" (click to show/hide)

I'd say this one's slightly harder than Cascade. It's another one that could go either way, but leaning a bit more towards Gold this time. The reduced availability of destructive skills is a factor here - with the original counts, I'd put it slightly easier than Cascade, due to the possibility of using some of these spare skills to help set up the timing.

Gentle 16 "A Beast Of A Level" (click to show/hide)

This one is really hard, and took me by far the longest of any of these. There's so many things that seem like they might work but don't, which adds to this one's challenge. I'd very strongly say this one is worthy of Gold.

[Proxima]

Thanks both of you for your input, and Nessy for input given on discord. I've also gone back to the original Redux topic to see what was said about talismans there, since some of the contributors aren't around at the moment, but their feedback should still be taken into account.

Putting what everyone has said together, I think we are very close to a final decision, but I'd still like to wait a little longer to see if anyone (especially Minim) has anything else to say.

Bronze talismans will stay as they are -- And Then There Were Four remains bronze, Keep Your Hair On, Mr Lemming remains silver.

Also, A Beast of a Level will be up-ranked to gold.

We then need to choose one more gold, from the other four levels in namida's post. Right now, my personal inclination is towards Cascade, but The Great Lemming Caper is a strong contender, and Where Lemmings Dare isn't out of the running.

I don't want this to take too much longer to decide, so please everyone get your thoughts in

[Minim]

I'm in agreement with Proxima that Cascade should go up to gold.

As for Gentle 11, I was basically talking about an alternate solution that doesn't use the blocker, but looking at my method again, I've realised how obscure that solution is as well, so I'm going to change my mind and agree that it stays at silver.

[Proxima]

Thank you. Okay, I think we have enough for a final decision.

I take Minim's post as withdrawing his vote for Where Lemmings Dare, since I stated that only one of the three can be gold; so WLD is out of the running with no-one really being in favour.

That leaves just Cascade and The Great Lemming Caper, and votes in this topic are split 2-2 between those, so taking previous feedback into account as well, Cascade wins and will remain gold. (Also, I have two additional reasons for this decision. I think veterans tend to underestimate the Cascade 100% talisman, because we are all familiar with the solution now; but it really is difficult for new players to work out. The Great Lemming Caper has a very elegant solution, but it also has hacky solutions such as turning one lemming around so he goes in the holding area on the left, making it less worthy of gold in my eyes.)

I've updated the zip in the first post with these decisions. I believe the pack is now ready to be included in the automatic installer. Huge thanks to everyone who helped to bring us to this point!

[chrisleec728]

"Chill out" is also somewhat backroutable, as is MAYBE "Steel Block Party".

[Proxima]

Chill out: If you're talking about the no-climber solution, that's a challenge, not a backroute, as it's harder in both concept and execution than the intended solution. It could have been a talisman, but we're not adding more talismans now.

Steel Block Party has two different solutions and I am not enforcing either one as we don't know which was intended:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1. Make a 3-bridge wall under the hatch.
2. Use diggers just in front of the basher to lower his path so he passes under the steel.

[chrisleec728]

Yeah, I think I read that about "Steel Block Party" in a different post; I used the second solution. I can't imagine how you could solve "Chill out" without a climber; the way I solved it DID involve one, but it still felt very much like a backroute (I think I know the intended solution).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I had the first lemming dig and then bash at a certain point. Then I had a second lemming turn around while the first was still bashing. The second lemming then built to the exit. After the second lemming came out of the hatch I then raised the release rate to 99 and all of the rest of the lemmings just barely turned around before the first lemming finished his tunnel. Finally I made the first lemming a climber as soon as he turned around.

[Swerdis]

Solved it today. A great and not too difficult pack. I was surprised how well i reminded the solutions of the old Lemmings 1 and ONML-levels, all in all. I had the most fun with the Genesis and PSP levels, though, for they were new to me. Didn't bother to get all the talimans - maybe later. All my solutions can be found here.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Vidusaka

[Proxima]

Fix for "Let's go camping", hopefully once and for all this time. The zip in the first post has also been updated.

[Proxima]

Lemmings Redux has been updated once more (zip attached to the first post), and this is the definitive, final version unless a major bug turns up that requires fixing.

Changelog:

* Removed moss from steel on the following levels: One way or another; The Far Side; And then there were four; Where Lemmings Dare; Jump down; Over the wall. (I have not done this identically to namida in the conversions of the original level packs. I have left some moss along the bottom of the steel, especially in "One way or another", where namida preferred to put it all behind the steel. This means some pixels are non-steel in the Redux version, but with no real effect on the gameplay.)
* "ONML" changed to "Oh No! More Lemmings" in the author field of levels originating from ONML. (Let me know if I missed any.)
* Levels have been cleansed.

I'm pleased to report that the fix for "Let's go camping" seems to be robust. Even joshescue has sent a replay of the intended solution!

[WillLem]

Enjoying this pack, here are my replays for Gentle.

Mostly 100% saves and got a few Talismans! Can't quite figure out how to save 50 for the Talisman on 30 Turn around, young lemmings! though...

[Proxima]

namida and I, with help from DireKrow and WillLem, have finished looking through Lemmings Redux for the "skills you can't live without" challenge. We've also (with help from ccexplore) looked through the pack for the max saved challenge.

This has confirmed that there's nothing major that requires fixing, so I stand by my decision that the 18/1/20 revision is final, except for a couple of small things:

* Now that we've decided on changes to trigger areas of traps in the official styles, the trap used in "Electric circuit" can be moved up one pixel so it's more visible (which was, after all, the main reason for the trigger area change!)
* We may want to add more talismans. The max saved and SYCLW challenges include a lot of individual challenges (every skill type on every level), so we have to be careful not to go overboard, but we definitely found some interesting solutions along the way, and some of them might be worth including as talismans. I'll ask for opinions here especially from the people who took part in the challenge, but anyone is welcome to give feedback.

I'll leave this for a while until I've had time to look over our results before I can give my own opinion on adding talismans.

[namida]

Copy/pasted from Discord:

- something on Going Their Seperate Ways, there's a few options here. no floaters was quite messy IIRC, but no climbers might be a bit more interesting
- Snow Joke with 1 basher maybe? although it's a bit on the tedious side
- Worra Lorra Old Blocks with no digger
- quite a few things to choose from on Rocky Road
- i don't remember which one would be most interesting, but i found a few things all of which i remember being quite tricky on Upside Down World
- Watch Your Fingertip, 100% might be a good talisman
- With A Twist Of Lemming Please, no climber
- Fix The Road, Quick - a builder limit, maybe not necesserially 8 (that's a bit messy) but 9 or 10 perhaps?
- Sega Four, no climbers - purely because this is a heavily climber-dependent level so the "whoa, you can do that?!" value of it
- Lemmings' Ark, 1 climber

Also - Acrophobia, 3 builders. (I achieved 2, but 2 is basically just an insanely optimized variation on 3 - and 3 is still gold-worthy as it is, IMO.)

[Proxima]

I had a go at all of the above today, and solved most of them. Replays attached. (Note: I haven't ruled out talismans other than the ones in namida's post; I'm just looking at these first. In particular, max saved results and my own SYCLW replays may provide some worthy challenges.)

Feedback (click to show/hide)

Going Their Separate Ways: Both fun challenges! If we decide to allow multiple talismans per level, we could have both, in which case I'd say no floaters is bronze and no climbers silver. If not...  could just have a talisman for max 20 skills, allowing the player to choose which of these two solutions to go for.

Snow Joke: Fairly easy since I knew the bash-under-the-level route from other challenges. This could be a good way to include a talisman for the bash-under route. (I still need to look for the 100% solution on this level.)

Worra load of old blocks: Unsolved. I can save 20 with no digger, but the requirement is 24 and there are no leftover skills to hold back the lemmings who die.

Rocky Road, Upsidedown World: Didn't look at these. Both already have a talisman for saving 100%, although we might decide to allow multiple talismans on some levels; we could also consider dropping the UDW 100% talisman in favour of a skills challenge (probably no-climber). I'll have a more detailed look at these two levels another day.

Watch your fingertip: 100% is pretty easy, I just had a huge blind spot here earlier. Could be a bronze talisman if we need one more.

With a twist of lemming please: Nice solution but extremely precise. Still, that's not an absolute strike against it.

Fix the road, quick: 8 builders is a neat challenge and I didn't find it messy. I've also investigated fewest builders for 100%, and attached a replay using 10. Namida tells me it's possible with 9, but 10 is already talisman-worthy in my opinion.

SEGA Four: Unsolved, though I could do it with one climber, or with none if I had another blocker or destructive skill. I'll keep looking!

Lemmings' Ark: 1 climber is really just the normal solution except one lemming does most of the work -- not possible on the original Genesis level as it has a 4-minute time limit.

Acrophobia: I found an extremely precise solution for 3 builders; namida tells me his solution is different. I don't want to include a talisman for this in case the player stumbles on my route first and doesn't enjoy the precision. This level has other talisman possibilities: save 100% for bronze, or no diggers for silver.

[Proxima]

Got the two I was missing.

Worra load of old blocks (no diggers): Only just achievable, but not that demanding in execution. Could well be a silver talisman.

SEGA Four (no climbers): The specifics of the terrain near the exit allow a much more skill-efficient trick here, saving enough skills for the rest of the solution. This is a good talisman (probably also silver).

[Proxima]

We currently have 36 talismans, and there are definitely at least five from the list above I am interested in adding (Going Their Separate Ways, SNOW JOKE, Worra load of old blocks, With a twist of lemming please, SEGA Four) so I think we will go past 40, in which case the next "nice" number to aim for is 48. That doesn't seem unrealistic, as the max saved challenge and my own contributions to SYCLW will provide other ideas.

Since I like the bronze-silver-gold split to consist of "nice" numbers as well, there are two main options I'm considering: keep the current 1:2:1 ratio (so, 12 bronze, 24 silver, 12 gold) or go for 8 bronze, 24 silver, 16 gold. I think I'll decide first on exactly which talismans we are adding, then choose one of these ratios and then consider the rank of each talisman, but feedback on both the selection and ranking is welcome at any point.

[Proxima]

I was going to post this in "Talisman Ideas", but that got locked, so here we are.

"Flow Control" is an obvious candidate for RR talismans (if they were to be re-added); both "solve without changing the RR from its initial value" and "solve at constant RR 99" are interesting, difficult challenges that require puzzling out how they might be achievable, not just repeating the usual solution with more fiddly execution.

However, that is only one level, so I agree with namida's assessment that this talisman type will probably continue to have low usage and not be worth re-adding. In any case, "Flow Control" already has a talisman for saving at least 15 (and in fact, the initial-RR solution achieves this).

[namida]

Another possible candidate, if boosting the numbers is desired, is of course fewer diggers on I Am AT. I don't suggest making a talisman for 8 - that relies on a LOT of precision - but the same general concept could be done, with a bit more leniency, with perhaps 10 to 12 diggers.

[ccexplore]

How come multiples of 8 is a "nice" number for total number of talismans here?   (Or is it just multiples of 4 for each of gold/silver/bronze?)

[DireKrow]

Highly divisible numbers are aesthetically appealing.

[Proxima]

Well, the simple answer is that it fits with Redux having 32 levels per rank.

I remember that at some point, probably in my teenage years, I did an experiment. I had noticed that when it came to things like tempo markings in my musical compositions, I would choose the nearest "nice" number to the tempo I wanted, where "nice" meant a number like 32, 40 or 48 -- I couldn't exactly put my finger on what made some numbers "nice" and others not, but I instinctively knew which numbers were "nice" to me. So I drew up a list of "nice" numbers up to about 200 and tried to see if I could find a pattern.

It turned out that my "nice" numbers were almost exactly the practical numbers -- numbers such that any smaller number can be represented as the sum of some of its factors, so they must have a prime factorisation with predominantly small primes. I was very happy to discover that my aesthetic sense had a hidden mathematical basis

[Proxima]

- quite a few things to choose from on Rocky Road
- i don't remember which one would be most interesting, but i found a few things all of which i remember being quite tricky on Upside Down World

ROCKY ROAD already has a talisman for 100%, which eliminates bombers and blockers. Each destructive skill is fairly easy to eliminate separately, and I wouldn't consider any of these talisman-worthy.

2 builders, however, is very hard -- it's obvious enough where the builders go, but then you have to work out the skill allocation for the rest of the route, with the final linchpin being that the crowd should not be controlled, but kept out of danger by bridging the gaps while they are heading back towards the left.

I would consider this level the strongest argument so far for occasionally allowing multiple talismans per level.

I'll have a look at Upside-down World later.

[Proxima]

Upside-down World already has a talisman for 100%, which can be done with or without the blocker, but "100%" and "no blocker" are closely enough related that I wouldn't have a talisman for both.

No digger is trivial, and "1 basher" and "1 miner" are fairly simple rearrangements of the normal solution.

No builder is a little harder, requiring a trick with the one-way wall. No climber is the really interesting skill reduction; I don't think I would drop "save 100%" in favour of "no climber", but if we allow multiple talismans per level, we could definitely have both (and I would rate both as silver).

[namida]

If 100% vs No Blocker are closely related enough, but No Climber would just be a second silver: Would having "no blocker" instead of "100%" (thus allowing a lose-1 blocker route) be Bronze-worthy, without losing too much of what makes the talisman interesting?

[Proxima]

I guess so, but is there a reason against having two talismans of the same standard on the same level? (The two I'm considering on ROCKY ROAD, "save 100%" and "2 builders", would both be gold if we have both.)

I've started going over results from the max saved challenge, and solving for myself the results contributed by namida and ccexplore.

Feedback (click to show/hide)

Tension Sheet, Good Idea: Saving 100% requires timing the basher and miner relative to each other and a very fiddly trick with the blocker. Definitely not a talisman.

Flow Control: Save-17 is just a rearrangement of save-15 with a couple of extra tweaks. I think it makes sense to keep the talisman at 15 even though this isn't the maximum possible; since NL tracks personal records, the player can always challenge themselves to save more than required anyway. Interestingly, this matches the DOS max saved even though the DOS result requires a glitch. I presume the NL method won't work in DOS because it requires a lemming to explode earlier than would be possible with timed bombers.

Watch your fingertip: Discussed a few posts up. Could be a bronze, could just give this one a miss.

Temple of Love: Requires some thought to go from a regular solution to save-29. This could definitely be a talisman.

No hurry, relax: There are a couple of different solutions to this one, and one of them is good enough for save-14 as-is. Not a talisman.

[Proxima]

Okay, the talisman update isn't ready yet (I still need to match ccexplore's max saved results and then take a look over my own SYCLW achievements), but since roundthewheel is playing Redux at the moment, I decided to slip in a small update.

* Lunatic 15 "Evil whisper": Enlarged the long vertical steel area to prevent a backroute.
* Lunatic 16 "SEGA Four": Changed the music to the title screen music from the SMS version (provided by namida).

[Crane]

Hi everyone.

This sprung to mind while watching roundthewheelrtw play through Lemmings Redux.

The talisman for The Great Lemming Caper is too easy to get without even trying for that late on in the pack. You almost have to try to find the Blocker solution to not get it, especially originally you don't know about undermining Blockers at that point.

To keep the numbers even, I would like to suggest the removal of that talisman and the addition of a silver one for Lunatic 29: "Save Me": Lemmings Mastery - Save 45 - basically it means you can only use 5 Blockers without losing any lemmings at the end.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's possible to do relatively cleanly by using the 2nd digger to break the bridge to the upper platform, and use your Builders carefully to delay a 2nd pathfinder where necessary.
Mastery because, besides being the last level with a talisman,  you have to use Builders and Diggers and manage crowd control slightly unconventionally

.

[Proxima]

Firstly, we're already considering talisman additions/removals, and I want to wait until rtw is done with playing the pack so we can ask his opinion (as well as his viewers). I'll take your suggestion into account, but it might not get in, depending on the numbers we end up with.

It's possible to save 47 on Save Me. That said, talismans don't have to be for the maximum possible; Flow Control's talisman is deliberately less.

Redux talismans don't have names at the moment, so if we name any then we would have to come up with (and agree on) names for all of them.

[Crane]

47? Damn. I can hazard a guess as to how to do that (build to the levy from the trapdoor and use 3 builders to make a wall in place odd one of the Blockers?). Granted, unless I was told you could save 47, I wouldn't have thought it was possible!

Is there a more appropriate topic or location where you're taking suggestions?

[Proxima]

Just use this topic for now; one of the mods can merge it with the main Redux topic.

MOD: Topics have now been merged

[Crane]

Not sure if this is helpful or not, but here are my Save 45 and Save 47 solutions for Save Me.  If that is the only way to save 47 lemmings, it's kind of ridiculous and feels very messy rather than intricate.  The other thing is that my solution takes longer than 5 minutes (the level's original time limit), but it could probably be optimised if the lemmings are released sooner and the original pathfinder becomes the 2nd lemming going towards the exit.

[Crane]

It seems I have an old version of Redux which didn't have the talisman on "I am A.T.", I don't think, hence my suggestion to name the one in "Save Me" as "Lemmings Mastery".  Still, I just completed it now, and wow, that was fiddly... not sure if I enjoy it though - still it is a challenge, I'll give it that.

[Proxima]

Now that roundthewheel has finished solving the levels (talisman solutions are still to come), this is a good time to recap where we're up to.

* No further levels requiring backroute fixes have emerged, so the level layouts will not be changed any further from this point, except:
* Since NL has fixed some misleading trap trigger locations (notably the rope trap and the "Poor Wee Creatures" trap), the traps can be adjusted slightly to be more visible (which was the main point of arguing for the change, after all). This will only have a slight effect on the gameplay, and most or all replays should still work.
* I am considering moving Manic 11 "Where Lemmings Dare" later, possibly switching it with Manic 31 "With a twist of lemming, please". (Other possible candidates for switching that have been discussed are Manic 27 "Watch your fingertip" and Lunatic 7 "Down, along, up, in that order". As always, I'm open to feedback on this, and we can have a vote if necessary.)
* We are considering adding some talismans, and it's worth considering whether we want to remove any at the same time, so as to finish with a nice number. I want to wait on this until roundthewheel has finished solving the talismans so he and his viewers can join in the discussion.
* Should "Pop Yor Top" revert to lose-7 as on the original game? That would make the "bombers only" talisman impossible, so we would have to remove that one.

[Crane]

Personally, I would say that all solutions should be possible in their original games, so the Bomber-only solution I would consider ineligible (although I'd keep 10 Bombers just to see if players are paying attention) - the only talisman-like solution I can think of for "PoP YoR ToP" is "Save 100% in under 1:00.00", which is Bronze at best.

The only changes should be backroute fixes as you said, although what counts as a backroute is questionable - for example, is the Save 47 solution to "Save Me" a backroute?  Also, is simply bombing through the thick wall in "The Steel Mines of Kessel" a backroute, instead of only bombing through the thin terrain and taking the low route? (I always saw this level as a 'think ahead' test rather than a brute force test - it would make the talisman more legitimate too since you'll have to manage the water pits)

Also, solutions that take longer than the original time limit should be looked at with care.

[Proxima]

The only changes should be backroute fixes as you said, although what counts as a backroute is questionable - for example, is the Save 47 solution to "Save Me" a backroute?  Also, is simply bombing through the thick wall in "The Steel Mines of Kessel" a backroute, instead of only bombing through the thin terrain and taking the low route? (I always saw this level as a 'think ahead' test rather than a brute force test - it would make the talisman more legitimate too since you'll have to manage the water pits)

Also, solutions that take longer than the original time limit should be looked at with care.

We already discussed Kessel in the development topic and decided to leave it, although given how few people contributed to each decision, we could reopen some of them if you (or anyone) really feels strongly about it. I'm against blocking that route because putting steel there would spoil the nice-looking bone structure; neither solution is really more obvious than the other (given that it's not obvious a priori that you have enough resources to get through the thick wall and still complete the solution; and it takes other skills as well as bombers and you still have to deal with the trap); and we have no idea what the developers intended.

I've said this a few times, but "backroute" is not just a synonym for "unintended solution". It should mean a solution that feels more like bypassing the puzzle rather than engaging with it. Turning around at the top on "Let's go camping" is a very clear example, as is the direct drop solution to "Acrophobia". The blocker solution on "The Great Lemming Caper" is much more debatable, and I'm citing it as an example to show that even when we're clear about a definition of "backroute", it's still a fuzzy line. While it does bypass what is really interesting about the no-blocker solution -- having to time the two lemmings' movements relative to each other instead of being able to hold one of them in place as long as you want -- it is still a different, valid way of engaging with the puzzle as it was presented to the player. We discussed this one (as well as "Final impediment") in the development topic and there were very clear votes for leaving these levels as they are, with talismans to reward players for finding the more interesting solutions.

In short: since there will be one more update to the pack anyway, I am open to making more backroute fixes if necessary, and I'll listen if you have a strong opinion that a particular solution should be removed; but if no strong reasons for making changes turn up, there will not be any more backroute fixes. Also, I intend the next update to be absolutely final so that players have a stable final version, and we don't have to worry about our challenge results being invalidated with further changes.

[Crane]

That sounds fair.  Regarding Kessel, I wouldn't have added steel, but would have just added a bit more regular terrain on the right side to make it slightly thicker at floor level.  Given how there are deliberately thin parts of the floor and only 10 Bombers, Blockers and Builders, an educated guess tells me that the developers want you to plot a course through the thin parts of the level.  I'm not sure how practical it is to brute force your way through the thick wall at the top on the Amiga version even with Blockers.  Your call though.

True, an unintended solution isn't a backroute, especially if it's intricate and clever.  It depends on the spirit of the level.  I wouldn't call the Blocker solution a backroute, since the tools (remember the original had 10 Bashers, Miners and Diggers) seem to imply there are multiple solutions.  Granted, the Blocker solution does allow you to trap a Lemming.

My personal opinions based on the level design and my own personal feelings.
- Save 47 solution to Save Me... questionable (it's fairly clear that the designers want you to block the Builder going to the right to get on top).
- Thick wall solution to Steel Mines of Kessel... backroute (the thin parts of the terrain imply that the designers want you to use the Bombers there instead of just brute force something similar to the Fun version).
- Blocker solution to The Great Lemming Caper... acceptable (using a Blocker/Miner turnaround trick takes a stretch of the imagination).

These are just my personal thoughts though.

[Proxima]

Another thing to note on Kessel is that since NL tracks personal records, the player can always challenge themselves to save as many as possible, even without a talisman for doing so. Saving 44/50 absolutely requires taking the route through the thin terrain and over the water.

[Proxima]

Replays of all talismans for roundthewheel and anyone else who wants them.

(rtw: I've included all talismans including the ones you've already solved. My solutions to some of these may be interesting to you, especially "A beast of a level" and "The Steel Mines of Kessel".)

[Crane]

I have a challenge for The Crankshaft if you're interested, although it's at least silver because it requires a miner trick to save 100%...

Save 50 using only miners and climbers

It's obviously a step up from simply having no builders, plus it may look a bit messy if it says "Save 50 with no floaters, bombers, blockers, builders or diggers", although you could remove bombers from that and name the talisman "Now use miners and climbers" so it's clear.  Here's a replay of how it's done.

[Proxima]

One way it could be done:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Send up a climber, and start mining from the top-left of the first pillar. When he's deep enough, have another climber turn around in his tunnel and mine to release him. Repeat this to make a zigzag tunnel down the pillar that lemmings can't climb back up. Then continue the usual solution, and mine to release the crowd at the end.

If that's what you intend, this trick is extremely fiddly in NeoLemmix so I would be very reluctant to make a level or talisman requiring it. In addition, we already have a bronze talisman for The Crankshaft, and it's important to keep a good balance between bronze, silver and gold, so I definitely don't want to replace any of the existing bronzes (except maybe PoP YoR ToP, as discussed above).

[Crane]

It might be slightly fiddly, yeah, but nowhere near as bad as the "I am A.T." talisman, and your solution sounds perfectly acceptable too if the first miner can survive the fall.

My intention would be to replace the existing talisman on The Crankshaft - but if you feel it's not a good idea, then I'll gladly step aside.

ADDENDUM: In my solution in the post above, that miner stopping trick only has to be performed once.

[Crane]

This is just an opinion again, but for the "Save 100%" talisman on Water Processing Plant, I would like to suggest reducing its difficulty from Gold to Silver, since I don't personally think it's too difficult to work out how to only use 4 Builders there while saving everyone... compare with other nightmarish ones like "Save 100%" on "I am A.T.", which requires knowing about or discovering the Digger-cancelling trick and would otherwise invoke a "How the hell are you meant to do this?" reaction.

[Proxima]

Long post coming up. Please, everyone who's interested in the Redux pack, read carefully and share your opinions.

As of the release of NL 12.9, namida has now decided to ship Redux with NL, and discontinue support for the original levels other than the Redux pack, so that Redux will be the only official NL version of the original levels from now on.

It's desirable for Redux to be declared final as regards level selection, talismans and backroute fixes, so that we don't have to worry about different users having different versions of Redux, and so that we can post challenge results without having to worry about the pack changing again. I had thought that the current version could be final, but roundthewheel's Let's Play has brought up a couple of issues; and since a new version will be necessary to fix those, we may as well have one last consideration of other changes we might make.

Firstly, is everyone okay with the current size of the pack and selection of levels, or do you have suggestions for other levels that should be included? I am really just asking this to be absolutely thorough; I don't think it's at all likely we will make any changes to level selection at this very late stage. But namida's declaration may have changed some people's opinions; I myself have a few favourite levels that didn't make the cut; there are new forum members around who weren't part of the original decision-making. So if anyone has any opinions, now is the time to put them forward.

Secondly, does anyone have any criticism of the current ordering? The one change I will almost certainly make, since I've asked for opinions on this during the LP and there seems to be consensus, is to move Manic 11 "Where Lemmings Dare" later within the rank, most likely switching it with Manic 31 "With a twist of lemming, please".

Assuming the selection and ordering won't take long to resolve, we can go straight on to discussing talismans. I've asked for opinions on this already, and there seems to be a consensus that we shouldn't add too many talismans at this stage. But there are definitely some good ideas for talismans that have come from the max saved and "skills you can't live without" challenges, and only one current talisman ("PoP YoR ToP") that doesn't seem worth keeping; so I think going up to 40 might be the best bet.

Just to be clear, I want to select talismans first, and only when the selection is finalised, decide about ranking them. (We could also give names to the talismans, as Crane has suggested recently; but it must be all or none.)

Looking through recent suggestions and the challenge topics, I've drawn up a shortlist of talismans I like best, but this does not mean I am only considering these; anyone is welcome to suggest others.

* Chill out! - No climbers
* Acrophobia - Save 100% or no diggers
* No justice for the hero - Save 100%
* Lemmy in the cold, cold ground - No bashers or no miners
* Going Their Separate Ways - Max 20 skills
* SNOW JOKE - 1 basher
* Worra load of old blocks - No diggers
* ROCKY ROAD - 2 builders (this would be in addition to the existing "Save 100%" talisman)
* Steel Block Party - No builders
* Be more than just a number - Save 100%
* Fix the road, quick - Save 100% with 10 builders
* SEGA Four - No climbers
* With a twist of lemming, please - No climbers
* Temple of Love - Save 29/30
* Save Me - Save 45/50

...and there may be others I've missed, but I have tried to look thoroughly through both challenge topics, as well as posts in this topic. Since that's 15, adding all of them would bring us to 51. We could go for 48 or 50, but most people I've spoken to seem to prefer a number in the 32-40 range, so maybe we should select just a few from the above list.

We can also consider removing some of the existing talismans, but one thing is not up for discussion: Redux is aimed at new players who may be experiencing the original levels for the first time, so challenges like saving 100% on "Cascade" that are interesting to new players will not be removed just because they are old hat to Lemmings veterans.

I would really appreciate it if everyone would take the time to contribute their opinions. If not, I can make all the necessary decisions by myself, but I won't feel the same confidence in those decisions that I do when they're reached through discussion and consensus.

[Proxima]

As an addendum, since this has been brought up more than once:

In the original discussion of which levels to backroute-fix and which to leave, it seemed there was a consensus for leaving the blockers in "The Great Lemming Caper", necessitating having a talisman for not using the blockers. I can't remember whether this was one of the things we voted on or whether it just emerged from forum posts. We could potentially go back on this decision and remove the blockers after all, since some people feel it's weird to have this talisman. But again, since this is specifically one of the things we discussed in the original topic, I would need to see a clear consensus in favour of removing the blockers before making this change.

[namida]

it seemed there was a consensus for leaving the blockers in "The Great Lemming Caper", necessitating having a talisman for not using the blockers.

I disagree with the second part of this. I would strongly advocate against removing the blockers, but I'm fairly neutral on the talisman. I mentioned this on Discord but in short, I feel the blockers should only be removed if their sole purpose was to position bombers. In practice, this pretty much just means Fun 6 and Fun 18 - and even the latter is slightly debatable, because they could also be placed next to a firepit to prevent lemmings going into it.

[WillLem]

I'd suggest (if possible) inclusion of the following levels. Even if not in their original versions, these can be made into very interesting levels with a minimum of tweaking:

The Ascending Pillar Scenario
Mary Poppins' Land
Take A Running Jump
Steel Works

Oh No! It's The 4TH DIMENSION!

And, you're welcome to use the recoloured exit and entrance graphics for the "special" levels.

[namida]

Modifications in Redux are solely for the purpose of blocking backroutes, or NeoLemmix-izing the levels. Redux isn't a pack of derivative levels (well, in a sense it is, but not in the way that I get your post to be implying), just the same ones but NeoLemmix-ized.

Out of those suggestions:
- The Ascending Pillar Scenario; no, just no. Perhaps its easier version if some more filler for the early ranks are needed (although even this, there's likely better candidates), but the repeat doesn't have much value. There are better candidates (such as Taxing 3) for levels requiring a digger pit or similar, likewise, I'm sure the "dig down rather than build up to make a safe fall" appears elsewhere, though I'm not awake enough yet to think of specific examples. And the middle segment, of course, is just a builderfest.
- Mary Poppins' Land; I don't feel super strongly about this one but don't see any reason (other than "there are better choices", as applicable) to not include it either.
- Take A Running Jump; I do like this level but backroutes are an issue. It would need significant changes to eliminate a certain well-known backroute, and even then, variants of it would remain open. So I think more on technical reasons, this one isn't a good pick.
- Steel Works; this was discussed on Discord the other day. Basically, while the end segment is somewhat interesting, the rest of it is just a tedious builderfest, which makes it a very strong candidate to not include. Proxima also felt the 1-pixel-too-far splat start was awkward, too, although I personally didn't see too much of an issue with that. Cutting it down to just the end section doesn't really feel appropriate for Redux.
- Oh No! It's The 4th Dimension!; I'm neutral on this one much like Mary Poppins' Land.

With that being said, one level has come to mind that I'd personally argue for inclusion of. Mayhem 2 "The Boiler Room". While it does share a main trick with Taxing 27 "Call In The Bomb Squad", a key point of difference is that the trick is not as obvious here. I don't feel super strongly about this, though.

[WillLem]

- Take A Running Jump; I do like this level but backroutes are an issue. It would need significant changes to eliminate a certain well-known backroute.

Out of interest, which backroute?

[namida]

- Take A Running Jump; I do like this level but backroutes are an issue. It would need significant changes to eliminate a certain well-known backroute.

Out of interest, which backroute?

Blocking off the way up to the top by sealing the one-pixel corridors with a builder, rather than building a splatform.

[ccexplore]

Whether that's a backroute or not is somewhat debatable.  Unless the mechanics changed in NeoLemmix, the builder that seals up the one-pixel corridor will not himself be able to turn around, he will still follow the way up and eventually splat unless you do the splatform anyway.  The only reason you don't need to bother is because the level lets you lose 1.  At the same time, lose 1 is rather unlikely if you did do the splatform approach, unless you're slightly careless at the beginning when you need to spam-build a little.

It's also surprising how much building you need to make the splatform safe, you pretty much almost have to start building as soon as the lemming finishes falling down the cliff, or your splatform apparently won't be quite high enough to stop the splatting.

Honestly I don't find that level terribly interesting, but if people actually want to include that level in Redux and yet you're really bothered by the seal-the-corridor route, you could consider changing save requirement to 100% so that the splatform must be done.

[WillLem]

Blocking off the way up to the top by sealing the one-pixel corridors with a builder, rather than building a splatform.

As ccx said, I'm pretty sure that isn't a backroute because the level lets you lose 1; since 1 lemming walks up the corridor and to his death (unless you build said splatform to save him, of course) having sealed the corridor with a builder for the others, it seems likely this is intended.

It's also the solution that's suggested in the Prima Publishing Lemmings: The Official Companion which was created and licensed by Psygnosis, which I think at least makes the solution acceptable if not intended by the level's designer.

It's also surprising how much building you need to make the splatform safe, you pretty much almost have to start building as soon as the lemming finishes falling down the cliff, or your splatform apparently won't be quite high enough to stop the splatting.

You can also build from the cliff itself to prevent this being an issue, as long as the 1-pixel corridor has been sealed.

if people actually want to include that level in Redux and yet you're really bothered by the seal-the-corridor route, you could consider changing save requirement to 100% so that the splatform must be done.

+1 for this: I agree that this would be an ideal way to present the level in Redux.

[Proxima]

Okay, so there is definitely some interest in enlarging the pack. That doesn't mean it's guaranteed to happen; for one thing, I have to balance this against quite a few people who've said that the pack is a good size already. I'm pretty sure there aren't any currently included levels that should be removed -- I'm certainly willing to listen if you have suggestions for removals, but since we went through a lengthy selection process to make sure there was firm consensus for which levels made it in, I would have to see a very strong shift of opinion against any particular level before I'd consider removing it.

If we don't remove any levels, then we currently have 160 (32 per rank), and only a few possible additions have been suggested. I'm not wild about the idea of having 33 per rank (especially since the original games usually had round numbers or powers of 2 per rank -- 30 in Lemmings, 20 in ONML, 16 in Holiday); but maybe other people don't feel as strongly about this as I do? We could consider going up to 35 per rank, or even 40, but that would require adding a lot of levels that were considered not worthy of inclusion in the original discussion. Also, large ranks may be a little off-putting to players as the landmark of having a rank completed would be a long way off from the start. (One possibility would be to have 6 ranks of 30, 180 in total, but again, that would require finding 20 new levels.)

So I don't know what the best thing is to do here. Maybe I'll leave it a little while longer to see how things go, and put up a poll if necessary.

My thoughts on the specific levels that have been mentioned:

The ascending pillar scenario: The interesting (and difficult) part of this level is containing the crowd at the beginning, with so little space to work with. (I was stuck on this level for about a year!) I think it could potentially be worth including for this reason, even if the rest of it is just building.

Heaven can wait (we hope): This was a striking level in the original game, because of the tight time limit and 100% save requirement. I think (but can't be sure) that even for a new player, it would be less impressive in NeoLemmix, because the player would be used to framestepping to release the crowd at the correct time (although if Redux is the only pack they have played, there are not that many time-limited levels at all). The tactic of trapping the crowd in a digger pit rather than using blockers is a valuable one to showcase, so I'll check whether we already have any levels like this.

Mary Poppins' Land: This is an interesting case, because Nepster argued for removing it and adding Blizzard 1; I was against that; and with the way bsmith counted up votes, that meant neither level got included, even though it's possible Nepster may have felt that at least one of the two should make it in. I think it's a decent level and a clear example of a useful tactic -- but Old MacDonald Had a Farm feels like a more complex and interesting expansion of the same idea, so that would be a strike against it.

Take a running jump: This feels redundant, even with the proposed fix. There isn't much to it other than building a landing bridge, and we definitely have other levels that show that.

Steel Works: One of my own favourites, but that's partly because of its placement as one of only four levels unlocked from the start, so it was extremely daunting to get a glimpse of the level of complexity the game would eventually work up to, and of course very satisfying when I finally managed to beat it. That wouldn't work at all in NL, because all levels are unlocked, so the player has no particular reason to fixate on the first level of the last rank; and in any case we've chosen It's hero time for that position and I'm happy with that decision.

All that aside -- the ending part of the level is good but neither the beginning nor the middle shows anything we don't have in other levels, so overall I'd rather let this one go than try to fix it into a worthy candidate level, since really we would then be making our own level inspired by the original, and that's beyond the scope of Redux.

Oh No! It's the 4th Dimension! -- This has some interesting features but is spoiled by too much building and a save requirement so low that you can let the lower-left lemmings all die. Again, a good candidate for making a derivative level for another project, but not so much for this one.

The Boiler Room -- I do like this level, especially the daunting "this is completely impossible" first impression it gives. Redundancy with Call in the bomb squad isn't an issue since that level isn't in Redux, although the somewhat similar Don't leave any Lemmings is.

Since I'm neutral-to-negative about most of these, my own inclination is to leave the pack at 160 levels (which would certainly be the simplest option!) but again, I want to take everyone's views into account, so please keep the discussion going -- I'm really glad that even after the huge discussion we've already had, people are still willing to take the time to put their views forward.

[namida]

I definitely wouldn't say there's a critical need to include more. My comments were more "if more are going to be added, this is my input about which ones". Likewise, I don't recall any level standing out as particularly worthy of removal either, so adding would likely be either swapping one borderline case for another (which I'd say don't do; let the one that's already in win on "it's a hassle to change now, this level was the lucky one of the two" grounds), or increasing the total number (which I think is unnecessary, but not outright objectionable).

If expanding it, I'd be in favor of increasing the rank size rather than adding an extra rank. Adding an extra rank requires further discussion of how to spread the levels out between ranks; simply keeping the same overall order but changing the cutoff points could end up with rank starters / finishers that don't feel so appropriate for the position, etc.

[WillLem]

One possibility would be to have 6 ranks of 30, 180 in total, but again, that would require finding 20 new levels.

If any pack enlargement does take place, I'd suggest this would be the best way to do it as more & smaller ranks is better than fewer & larger.

since really we would then be making our own level inspired by the original, and that's beyond the scope of Redux.

To be fair, a lot of Redux levels seem to do exactly this by changing skillset, time limit, amount of lems, etc. For Oh No! It's the 4th Dimension!, for instance, simply increasing the save requirement would be enough to render this one less trivial.

Adding an extra rank requires further discussion of how to spread the levels out between ranks; simply keeping the same overall order but changing the cutoff points could end up with rank starters / finishers that don't feel so appropriate for the position, etc.

The simplest way around this would be to leave the start and last levels as they are for each rank, and it's possible that current members of the community may enjoy being part of the process of contributing to Redux.

I say all this without wishing to give the impression that I'm all for Redux being changed or expanded, but opening the pack up to the community once more (particularly now that it's bundled with NeoLemmix) and responding to feedback on what levels people would like to see included definitely seems like a positive thing to do. I'm communicating my thoughts in that spirit more than anything else.

[chrisleec728]

On the one hand "Bomboozal" has been reduced from Taxing to maybe Fun difficulty due to untimed bombers, which makes replacing "A task for bombers" with it an interesting idea at least (you've still got "bomb" in the title for one thing), but on the other hand "A task for bombers" is better known as a tutorial level, so I'm not sure what to lean towards. Just a couple thoughts of my own.

[Proxima]

If any pack enlargement does take place, I'd suggest this [6 x 30] would be the best way to do it as more & smaller ranks is better than fewer & larger.

Another possibility is 6 x 28 = 168, which only requires us to find eight new levels. Namida is right, though -- adding an extra rank would require a lot of restructuring work, so I'm reluctant to take that step unless it's really clear it's the best decision.

To be fair, a lot of Redux levels seem to do exactly this by changing skillset, time limit, amount of lems, etc.

I don't see those as comparable. Time limits were removed except where essential, because that's an established NeoLemmix convention and makes the pack feel more at home and less like an import of older content. Reducing the lemming counts similarly makes them feel more like NL levels (although that is less firmly established as a convention than removing time limits). Neither of these changes affects the solution to the level.

The only cases where we have changed the range of possible solutions were to fix backroutes, and only in really clear cases -- for instance, "The Great Lemming Caper" still has a variety of solutions, even though the intended solution is beautiful and uses a unique trick, because we felt that fixing the level to absolutely require this solution would be too much of a change from the original.

"Oh No! It's the 4th Dimension" is one case where we could consider a fix to make the level more interesting -- but it would also make it even more builder-heavy. I guess we'll see how the conversation goes regarding number of levels first of all, and if we do enlarge the pack, that one is a possibility. It's just not one that, right now, I regret not being included.

opening the pack up to the community once more (particularly now that it's bundled with NeoLemmix) and responding to feedback on what levels people would like to see included definitely seems like a positive thing to do. I'm communicating my thoughts in that spirit more than anything else.

That's why I'm asking for input now

[namida]

On the one hand "Bomboozal" has been reduced from Taxing to maybe Fun difficulty due to untimed bombers, which makes replacing "A task for bombers" with it an interesting idea at least (you've still got "bomb" in the title for one thing), but on the other hand "A task for bombers" is better known as a tutorial level, so I'm not sure what to lean towards. Just a couple thoughts of my own.

Disagree. Bomboozal or Let's Block And Blow (the difference between the two is basically negligable in NL) never showcases using bombers to blow through a thin vertical wall, only through a thin horizontal platform.

[ccexplore]

I don't recall anyone else on this thread asking for the bomber tutorial level to be replaced, nor for Bomboozal to be added anywhere to Redux?  I'm sure there are more interesting levels to consider for inclusion first before we get to considering levels like Bomboozal.

[chrisleec728]

Never mind. Namida made a good argument against it, plus I wasn't officially suggesting it anyways.

[WillLem]

Here's an LP of the first rank of Redux, episode 1 of the new series!

[Proxima]

I was just about to post that link myself

In a comment, ericderkovits said he would prefer it if every level had its original music, instead of the current system of cycling through all Lemmings / ONML tracks so each one is used equally often. (This was not a deliberate decision; we simply never even considered that it might be an idea to do things differently.) Does anyone else feel like this? I'm open to making this change if there is a consensus in favour of it -- but it would have to be a clear consensus, because there may be people among the "silent majority" who prefer the current setup and would be against this change.

At the moment, Redux has 160 levels and cycles through 23 tracks. Since 7 x 23 = 161, all tracks are played seven times each except for ohno_04 and the tracks that get skipped when a special graphics level appears (orig_16, orig_02, orig_11, ohno_03 and orig_06).

With the proposed change, ONML tracks would play on the ONML levels (36 in total), Holiday tracks on the Holiday levels (12); we'd still have special graphics tracks for the first four special levels, and original Lemmings tracks on the remaining 108 levels. However, because of the lack of any numerical pattern in which levels are included, we could end up with some tracks playing a lot more often than others (as the Genesis version already does). I haven't yet looked in detail to see what things would look like.

Any feelings for or against this proposal?

[ericderkovits]

Yes mine has all the music from each level as they are supposed to be, orig, ohno, holiday, genesis, psp, nes and I think even 1 zx spectrum level. I have a folder on my hard drive that has all the music for any lemmings game-dos, amiga, many others(got from various sources online).
if other people want this, I can upload the music. I even have music for 3d lemmings, revolution, all world of lemmings, adventures of lomax, the tribes (amiga, dos, SNES). All are in .ogg form because I use also for Superlemmini. But I won't upload unless others want since redux has a lot of music that would be played often like genesis. I don't mind that's why I changed mine, but others may. Thx Eric.

[chrisleec728]

I was thinking the same thing actually, especially since I like the PSP music in particular. However, there are four different levels that are attributed to both Genesis and SNES and others from Budget Amiga, Prima and ZX Spectrum, so I'm not sure how that would work.

[Proxima]

Yes mine has all the music from each level as they are supposed to be, orig, ohno, holiday, genesis, psp, nes and I think even 1 zx spectrum level. I have a folder on my hard drive that has all the music for any lemmings game-dos, amiga, many others(got from various sources online).
if other people want this, I can upload the music. I even have music for 3d lemmings, revolution, all world of lemmings, adventures of lomax, the tribes (amiga, dos, SNES). All are in .ogg form because I use also for Superlemmini. But I won't upload unless others want since redux has a lot of music that would be played often like genesis. I don't mind that's why I changed mine, but others may. Thx Eric.

That sounds like a great resource! I think you should definitely post it somewhere (maybe in Level Design?) since others may want to use different versions of the music for customising their own NL installation or for custom packs.

For Redux, I wasn't considering changing which version of the music plays to match the game it comes from, since I would find it jarring to keep switching between Amiga music, Genesis music and so forth from level to level -- just maybe (if this is what the community wants) playing the same track as the original games played on that level. What do others think about this?

[ericderkovits]

it wouldn't be too hard because all my music files are cleary labed ie orig_01cancan_dos, tune3_amiga, specialone_genesis. Not just labled orig01 or tune03. so if they were in the music folder one could just look for the music file with the _ver. But it would take time, since redux has many levels. In Superlemmini much easier and quicker. for the pack you want (ie SNES) just in the levelpack.ini just add the music_id at end of each level and just list the music in that pack ie Music_## = musicname.mod(.ogg)

This is why I wish the neolemmix editor could some how read a music.ini file and you could put the levels and the musictitle in it.

[namida]

I suspect that if we try to match the original games' track selection, we're going to run into "which version?" questions. Just between the three most significant ones, my understanding is that Genesis has no pattern (it's basically arbitrarily selected for each level - though I might be mixing it up with SNES here?), while Amiga follows a pattern, and DOS it entirely depends on what level the player started with and how many they've beaten - which means that for DOS exclusive levels (Vacation From Gemland, and anything from Prima) there isn't a "correct" music.

I don't really have anything against this idea, but I personally wouldn't consider it worthwhile either - even without the above, it's a lot of work.

This is why I wish the neolemmix editor could some how read a music.ini file and you could put the levels and the musictitle in it.

You can sort of achieve this by using a music.nxmi file and having the same number of lines in it, as the total number of levels in your pack. However, this is a really kludgy way to do things, and of course, it breaks as soon as an NXLV file is played standalone (including in testplay mode from the editor) rather than as part of a pack; so I really strongly don't recommend doing this.

[namida]

From another topic:

"It's all a matter of timing" duplicates the middle hatch, after a vote was taken specifically on this level.

I don't recall the vote, but I'd like to specifically raise that I feel this duplication is not acceptable. It breaks expectations of the order lemmings will spawn in, which is a direct contradiction to the goal of NeoLemmix-izing the levels for this pack. In my opinion, either the ABCABC order should be restored, or else the two hatches should not completely overlap, so that it's clearly visible that there's two there.

[Proxima]

Proposed fix for "It's all a matter of timing":



This fix (if accepted) will only be used in Redux. For my "NL versions of the original levels for challenges" project, I think I'll just leave the hatches untouched (so that they spawn in ABCABC order) since, as you say, this is the expected behaviour in a NeoLemmix version.

[ccexplore]

Is it accurate to assume the positionings of the two entrances are calibrated precisely, so that they effectively match exactly where the lemmings would be located had they been fallen and landed from the original entrance under ABCB ordering?

[Proxima]

Indeed. A lemming falls 3 pixels per frame, so moving a hatch (1,-3) or any multiple of that is equivalent to its current position, if the lemming lands on flat terrain. In this case, the two middle hatches have been moved (4,-12) and (-4,12) from their original position.

[Proxima]

It's been a while with no further posts, and Minim mentioned wanting to do a thread combining challenge Results for Redux, so I think it's time to get on with the final round of decisions and updates.

Firstly, should we add more levels to Redux? Since I proposed this, we've only had a couple of suggestions, so at this point I'm ruling out expanding the pack to 175 or 180 levels. Going up to 165 or 168 is still on the table (maybe even 162 if just one or two levels get championed strongly), but it's looking more likely than ever that we'll just stick with the current selection. Also, it's now confirmed that my retouches to namida's conversions of the official levels can go ahead and will be the new official versions, so that means any levels we leave out will still have an official version available.

Regarding specific levels proposed: WillLem proposed "Heaven can wait (we hope)" and "The ascending pillar scenario", and this made me check whether we currently have a level that requires using a digger pit to trap the crowd. I don't think we do -- at least not the straightforward type of digger pit and release typified by "Heaven can wait". However, Quirky 28 "Speed Trap" shows the use of diggers to separate a worker from the crowd; Zany 14 "Pitfall" requires a digger pit and is overall more complicated than "Heaven can wait"; a digger pit is the easiest way to solve Zany 26 "Across the Gap"; finally, Manic 13 "Upside-down World" has a talisman for saving 100%, requiring some trickery in containing the crowd -- and, as with "The ascending pillar scenario", this is especially difficult due to the limited space.

So overall I think that, while the two levels proposed are a little different from anything we have, I don't mind leaving them out. Similarly, namida's suggestion of "The Boiler Room" is a great level that I like a lot, but we do already have Zany 13 "Don't leave any Lemmings" to show reaching the exit by bombing through a ceiling.

Any more feedback, or should we just mark this as settled and stick with the current level selection?

[JRT]

I'll have a look at the pack currently but I'd agree with WillLem, "Ascending Pillar Scenario" is iconic Lemmings. I enjoy "Heaven can Wait" but I'd choose Pillar over this plus I'm toying with a sequel to Heaven myself.

"Boiler Room" is another well recognised level, my opinion is that we could include consensus fan faves even if they use similar tricks to some other levels.

I suppose it depends on how likely the old level pack would need continued support as the engines evolve? The idea of some levels being lost to time makes me sad.

I'm looking forward to seeing what's been done with this pack.

[Proxima]

I suppose it depends on how likely the old level pack would need continued support as the engines evolve? The idea of some levels being lost to time makes me sad.

Namida has said that NL is working towards a final version, and already the engine is stable enough that I don't foresee much, if any, further maintenance work being required. I'm firmly committed to keeping both Redux and the full original level pack available as long as I'm around, so I don't think you need worry about any levels being lost (and in any case, the original games can still be played even if NeoLemmix were to disappear).

My opinion is that we could include consensus fan faves even if they use similar tricks to some other levels.

Absolutely -- that's the principle the pack is built on. The trouble is the difficulty of establishing consensus -- even when we were first putting the pack together, it was a very slow progress to get people to post their opinions and put everything together; it is much, much harder now that the pack is complete and only a very few people are sufficiently interested to post opinions on possible changes.

[Minim]

Secondly, does anyone have any criticism of the current ordering? The one change I will almost certainly make, since I've asked for opinions on this during the LP and there seems to be consensus, is to move Manic 11 "Where Lemmings Dare" later within the rank, most likely switching it with Manic 31 "With a twist of lemming, please".

OK, taking a proper glance, if we want to make one more level switch, I'd agree with this one. All these traps relatively early on in the pack are rather unwelcoming.

Proposed fix for "It's all a matter of timing":



This fix (if accepted) will only be used in Redux.

I'm leaning towards disagree with this one. If we're going to make this change, we'll need to follow this process for all the other 3 entrance levels (Lunatic 6 "Which one are you trying to get" is another 3-entrancer I know of that has 4 windows, two in one place). Considering on Lunatic 6 that all these windows are at the top, "splitting" them to make them visible would actually look messy. Manic 26 "Triple Trouble" retains the three windows.

I propose a backroute fix for Lunatic 23: "The Great Lemming Caper". Bashing under the structure is I think getting too easy at this late stage. I remember playing an old Level Design Contest level "Bookworm Bite" which I think involved digging part of the structure to get a climber up to the top, which I thought was very clever. Anyway, here's my proposal (and talisman solution) attached below.

[Proxima]

OK, taking a proper glance, if we want to make one more level switch, I'd agree with this one. All these traps relatively early on in the pack are rather unwelcoming.

Yeah, that is pretty much 100% going ahead now, since it's been on the table for a while and no-one has objected. The only question is which level to swap with "Where Lemmings Dare". As I said, my preference is for "With a twist of lemming, please", but I'm open to new suggestions or votes for the alternatives -- for a short while. I would like to make a final decision very soon.

I'm leaning towards disagree with this one. If we're going to make this change, we'll need to follow this process for all the other 3 entrance levels

No, we wouldn't. All 3-entrance levels have the problem that the original games expect ABCB ordering, but that doesn't mean we have to solve this problem for all levels in the same way. "It's all a matter of timing" is a special case because the puzzle depends on the relative spacing between lemmings, so it's important to preserve the ABCB ordering, and splitting the hatch is the best way to achieve this. There is no reason we would consider this for any other level.

(Lunatic 6 "Which one are you trying to get" is another 3-entrancer I know of that has 4 windows, two in one place).

Thank you for pointing this out. I can't see any reason why the puzzle is improved by having half the lemmings coming out the middle hatch, so I will remove the duplicated hatch.

I propose a backroute fix for Lunatic 23: "The Great Lemming Caper". Bashing under the structure is I think getting too easy at this late stage.

Firstly, it's not a backroute because it doesn't bypass the puzzle -- if you take that route, you still have to work out how to get back up after going down (and the trick to this is one of the most elegant in the original games). I also believe this is most likely the intended solution, although we'll never know for sure. Finally, the change doesn't enforce your solution since there are still solutions that don't involve going down to the bottom level at all. This has always been a level known for having a variety of interesting solutions, so there's no reason to privilege any one of them over the others, even if it were possible to do so.

[Minim]

OK, taking a proper glance, if we want to make one more level switch, I'd agree with this one. All these traps relatively early on in the pack are rather unwelcoming.

Yeah, that is pretty much 100% going ahead now, since it's been on the table for a while and no-one has objected. The only question is which level to swap with "Where Lemmings Dare". As I said, my preference is for "With a twist of lemming, please", but I'm open to new suggestions or votes for the alternatives -- for a short while. I would like to make a final decision very soon.

Yep. I totally agree with moving "With a twist of lemming, please" to Manic 11 in place of "Where Lemmings Dare".

I'm leaning towards disagree with this one. If we're going to make this change, we'll need to follow this process for all the other 3 entrance levels

No, we wouldn't. All 3-entrance levels have the problem that the original games expect ABCB ordering, but that doesn't mean we have to solve this problem for all levels in the same way. "It's all a matter of timing" is a special case because the puzzle depends on the relative spacing between lemmings, so it's important to preserve the ABCB ordering, and splitting the hatch is the best way to achieve this. There is no reason we would consider this for any other level.

...

Firstly, it's not a backroute because it doesn't bypass the puzzle -- if you take that route, you still have to work out how to get back up after going down (and the trick to this is one of the most elegant in the original games). I also believe this is most likely the intended solution, although we'll never know for sure. Finally, the change doesn't enforce your solution since there are still solutions that don't involve going down to the bottom level at all. This has always been a level known for having a variety of interesting solutions, so there's no reason to privilege any one of them over the others, even if it were possible to do so.

Thanks for the clarifications. I understand now.

[WillLem]

"It's all a matter of timing" is a special case because the puzzle depends on the relative spacing between lemmings, so it's important to preserve the ABCB ordering, and splitting the hatch is the best way to achieve this.

I know it's already been discussed, but whilst decisions are still being made, I'll just voice the opinion that splitting the hatches looks very messy and completely ruins the level's aesthetic. I understand why it's being done this way, but I'd strongly disagree that it's the "best way to achieve this."

Also, since one of the hatches is displaced horizontally, it affects the level's solution as well.

I'd suggest overlapping them again, but raise one slightly higher, by say... 4 pixels. This will reveal that there is another entrance hatch, but it will be in the same place and will be a lot tidier.

Anyways, other than that the rest of the pack seems fine to me. I'll just suggest the following levels for inclusion one more time, and then that's pretty much all I have to contribute. It's a great pack, and I think it's a good idea to bundle it with NL so new users have a pack to play immediately on downloading the platform, and one which makes it clear that NL promotes a particular game philosophy.

The Ascending Pillar Scenario (what JRT said)
Mary Poppins' Land (of all the levels that require backwards-building for safe landing, this is by far the most iconic and memorable)
Steel Works (you could limit the skillset and make the save req. 100% to make this more Redux-worthy)

WillLem out

[Proxima]

Also, since one of the hatches is displaced horizontally, it affects the level's solution as well.

It's displaced diagonally, not horizontally. The horizontal and vertical displacements exactly cancel each other out (in terms of time taken for the lemming to reach the end of the platform).

I'd suggest overlapping them again, but raise one slightly higher, by say... 4 pixels. This will reveal that there is another entrance hatch, but it will be in the same place and will be a lot tidier.

...whereas that would affect the solution. And here's what it would look like:



I understand our tastes differ here, but I find the stacked trapdoors much uglier than my version. Considering that the trapdoor conceptually represents a hole in the ceiling of the level (notwithstanding how weird that is in perspective terms), it makes no sense to layer them so the holes overlap. In my version, the slats of some the trapdoors drop down in front of other trapdoors, but at least the holes are spaced out.

[namida]

Steel Works (you could limit the skillset and make the save req. 100% to make this more Redux-worthy)

Hard disagree. Aside from that change being a case of "going too far" IMO, it doesn't fix the main problem with Steel Works - that while it may have an interesting start and end, the middle is a blatant tedious builderfest. Removing the middle part would be even more so "going too far". Steel Works is simply a level that doesn't fit well for Redux.

For that matter, I'd say Ascending Pillar Scenario isn't much better. On the other hand, Mary Poppins' Land may be viable, as the building needed isn't too excessive; though I wouldn't say I feel too strongly about it - more just I wouldn't object to it.

[Proxima]

Okay. I think we should make a final decision about Havoc 12 before moving on, so I've put up a poll.

I am considering the following options (please read carefully before voting):

* Three hatches with ABC order: This is the most harmonious with the expected behaviour in NeoLemmix, and matches what we are doing with all other 3-hatch levels. It does change the solution, but the resulting level is still solvable and interesting.

* Duplicate the middle hatch in the same position (i.e. the currently published version): This is the most harmonious with the original level. The only downside is that it hides information from the player, but I personally consider this an acceptable form of hidden information as (1) it reveals itself very early in the level without the player having to do anything; (2) stacked hatches have been used so frequently that players may at least expect that it's something that can happen.

* WillLem's suggestion (see image above): This is a compromise if you believe that neither of the above is best and my suggestion is too ugly.

* My suggestion (see image further up the page): This is a compromise if you believe that neither of the first two options is best and WillLem's suggestion is too ugly.

* Drop the level entirely: Hey, since it's getting to be problematic and we do have suggestions for other possible inclusions, we could consider this. If this wins the poll, I'll run another poll to decide which level we replace it with (from the ones recently suggested) and this will almost certainly mean we stick with 160 levels and so only introduce one new one.

* Something else I haven't considered yet: Only vote for this if you have an actual suggestion.

[namida]

I'll reiterate that I feel very strongly that overlapping them is not acceptable. While overlapping multiple entrances when they have a difference in skills and/or spawn direction is not unheard of, these give clear hints to the player that there's something going on, because the icons that indicate direction / skills overlap in a way that draws attention. Even that, after thinking about this case, I'm wondering how acceptable that is. When they're done purely for spawn order, there is no warning until the player watches what order the lemmings spawn in, and even this could be overlooked by a player who isn't specifically looking out for it.

My strongest preference would be either to retain the expected ABCABC ordering, or else to replace the level altogether. I'm fairly neutral between the two - I don't see this as a bad level that actively should be removed, but I wouldn't consider it a huge loss if it was removed either; doubly so if it comes down to "keep the level in a misleading form" vs "remove the level". Either offset option (with my preference of the two being the diagonal one) is okay too - they do look a bit awkward but they aren't misleading.

I will note that it being misleading is not purely a hypothetical / principle thing. My first attempts at this level for SYCLW failed because I had planned it around the expected spawn order, not realising that it had a hidden 4th entrance.

[Proxima]

I take it, though, you wouldn't actually block us from going ahead with the change if that option does win the poll? There are other published NL packs with stacked hatches, and there are likely to be a fair number of them in my conversions of old Lemmix packs, which I still have as a back-burner project (Redux and the official levelpack conversions being my priority at the moment).

[Dullstar]

I don't feel that overlapping hatches is a huge issue, and if the solution depends on it, it's probably best to go with overlapping. I would discourage it in new levels, but I have no issues with it appearing in older packs for compatibility reasons where necessary.

[ericderkovits]

Although we've gone thru this before, I think only if it's an official or rehash of one as in the redux pack, then it should be abcb order otherwise any other custom level should NOT ever have overlapping hatches,  as custom levels are new to a player. But in official or rehashes of one then I think it should be allowed since that is how the lemmings were spawned in the official versions.
I know in Lix many of the 2 player levels have overlapping hatches to get the lemmings to alternate direction although they probably have different colors too.

But I think we should just let the people vote on it and accept THEIR decision as this is a community of lemmings players. No one person should override that. If the abc order wins then we go with that or if any other option wins, just go with that.

[Proxima]

Just a reminder to everyone: By all means post to explain your position in more detail, but vote in the poll as well! The poll is how I wil judge how many people prefer each option, so if you haven't voted then you won't be counted.

Also, you can vote for more than one option if you like -- it's "Which of these do you consider acceptable?", not "Which is your top option?"

[namida]

I don't intend to outright block overlapping hatches, but should a "unfair content detection" feature become a reality in the future, expect overlapping hatches to be something it warns players about.

I think only if it's an official or rehash of one as in the redux pack, then it should be abcb order otherwise any other custom level should NOT ever have overlapping hatches,  as custom levels are new to a player.

There is no reason why levels from the official game should have a special rule seperate from any other NeoLemmix level. If they require doing something like this, it simply means they're a bad fit for NeoLemmix and probably don't belong on it - though in this specific case, there are alternative options that could make it work while still fitting NeoLemmix conventions.

[WillLem]

I don't feel that overlapping hatches is a huge issue, and if the solution depends on it, it's probably best to go with overlapping. I would discourage it in new levels, but I have no issues with it appearing in older packs for compatibility reasons where necessary.

+1 for this - the second option is by far the best. I only suggested the 4 pixel displacement because it's a slightly more aesthetically pleasing solution to the "unfair overlapping hatches" thing (which, just to be clear, doesn't bother me in the slightest).

Dullstar and I are agreeing on loads of things these days!

But I think we should just let the people vote on it and accept THEIR decision as this is a community of lemmings players. No one person should override that

I agree, but we can't ignore the fact that NeoLemmix is namida's baby, and so his opinion will ultimately have that bit more weight than pretty much anybody else's, whether intentionally or not.

I don't intend to outright block overlapping hatches, but should a "unfair content detection" feature become a reality in the future, expect overlapping hatches to be something it warns players about.

Maybe such a detection feature would solve all of these sorts of problems once and for all. Have we talked about this before...? Which thread was it in...?

There is no reason why levels from the official game should have a special rule seperate from any other NeoLemmix level.

I think the point is not that the levels being "official" makes any difference, but more the fact that the level already features a different spawning order prior to its inclusion in a NeoLemmix pack, and therefore the conversation needs to address whether said pack should keep, modify, or remove that particular feature of the level.

[namida]

I think the point is not that the levels being "official" makes any difference, but more the fact that the level already features a different spawning order prior to its inclusion in a NeoLemmix pack, and therefore the conversation needs to address whether said pack should keep, modify, or remove that particular feature of the level.

It is not a feature of the level. It's a feature of some of the engines the level was officially playable on. NeoLemmix does not have this feature. Even if it were hard-written into the level (eg. the actual DOS / Amiga LVL file contained the hidden entrance), I would still feel that removing or exposing the duplication would be an important part of the "NeoLemmix-isation" of the level. This level is not intimately reliant on the ABCB order (it can still be solved and remains a similar feel with ABCABC), and multiple proposals to retain the "middle spawns twice as often" without directly overlapping the windows have been put forward, so it cannot be argued that it is required for compatibility.

It is also, in my view, very contradictory that in all levels that already had hidden objects this pack goes out of its way to expose them, yet adds an entirely new hidden object in this one (which previously did not contain any hidden objects).

It should also be considered that an explicitly-specified custom window order is another feature that was specifically culled; partly due to lack of use but it would not have survived the "cull the unfair stuff" phase either way for these exact reasons.

[Proxima]

Maybe such a detection feature would solve all of these sorts of problems once and for all. Have we talked about this before...? Which thread was it in...?

Here's the thread. It was started in response to a discussion of 3-hatch levels in NL conversions of the original levels, back when you were doing these conversions.

I note that you made a proposal then that hatches should have helper indications "A", "B", "C" etc to indicate order (presumably at the start of the level, at the same time the arrow for facing direction is displayed), which would not only solve the unfairness issue here, it would address the fact that hatch order is always hidden information when there are two or more hatches.

And no, an "unfair content detection" feature would not solve all these problems. Depending on how exactly the feature works, some authors would be okay with their content being flagged as unfair; others would say "Fine, you win, if this is going to throw up pop-ups whenever it's played then I'll just change it." In short, the likely end result is the same as if namida were to outright block release of any levels that don't meet his fairness standards -- which, yes, from one point of view would be a solution to the problem, but it's not the solution I want to see happen.

[WillLem]

It is not a feature of the level. It's a feature of some of the engines the level was officially playable on.

Ah, that chestnut. Fair enough: in that case, the level should probably spawn ABCABC, because that's what NL does. I'm keeping my vote as the second option though, because that is genuinely what I feel would be best, and I don't think overlapping entrances is unfair. It would be better if there a visible way to represent them, of course, and here are some suggestions (some of which I'm sure I've made previously):

1) Make overlapped entrance hatches a different/darker colour.
2) Have spawning indications in CPM
3) Include spawning number/order/number of hatches as panel info (this would take up more space on the panel, but frankly it could probably do with a bit of an overhaul anyway - I'm not pushing this as an idea though, because there have still yet to be decisions made regarding the menu thing!)
4) Invent a character called "Helper Cat" who pops up (in a similar way to the old Microsoft Office Paperclip dude) and lets the player know stuff they need to know about the level

I note that you made a proposal then that hatches should have helper indications "A", "B", "C" etc to indicate order (presumably at the start of the level, at the same time the arrow for facing direction is displayed), which would not only solve the unfairness issue here, it would address the fact that hatch order is always hidden information when there are two or more hatches.

Thanks for reminding me! And yes - that's a good point: in a multi-hatch level, there is currently no way to know which hatch will spawn first, not to mention the order.

For example: a level could have 27 hatches, none of which are overlapping, so it's technically "fair", but the player has no idea which hatch will spawn next until all 27 hatches have spawned. Granted, a level with this many hatches may well be skipped because it has so many hatches, but yes: maybe having a spawn-order-indicator would remove the unfairness of overlapping hatches whilst also informing the player of spawn order.

some authors would be okay with their content being flagged as unfair; others would say "Fine, you win"... the likely end result is the same as if namida were to outright block release of any levels that don't meet his fairness standards... it's not the solution I want to see happen.

Me neither, for sure. I'm in favour of freedom of expression for creators being preserved as much as possible.

Can you elaborate a bit more on why "unfair content detection" would result in the same scenario as outright banning of unfair content, please? I'm not sure how it would be the same...

Personally, I'm in favour of an "unfair content warning" system: it allows creators to make whatever levels they want, and players can simply skip any levels that feature a warning (if they want to). The benefits of this seem quite extensive: it means that players won't skip an entire pack because of one "unfair" level - they can just skip that level, as well as being a way to put an end to (or at least limit) the recurring conversations about whether levels should or should not contain controversial content.

[Dullstar]

Information request (since changing votes is possible anyway):

1) How, specifically, does the spawn order affect the solution in this level?

2) Which ports use ABCB and which ports use ABC?

Reasoning: As I said, I don't have a problem with using overlapping hatches to mimic ABCB ordering where it's necessary for compatibility reasons with older content. But if this ordering is a quirk of a specific port and the level is not intended to rely on it, that might change my opinion.

[Proxima]

Can you elaborate a bit more

Sure, but I'll post in the other topic because this is moving away from the subject of Redux specifically.

1) How, specifically, does the spawn order affect the solution in this level?

2) Which ports use ABCB and which ports use ABC?

I've attached both versions so you can try them out. The general route is the same (build to land on the small pillars, then build to link them with each other and the exit) but the timing of the lemmings reaching danger is different.

I haven't played any ports of ONML other than the Mac, so my information is limited here, but I believe that the original (Amiga and DOS) game has ABCB order, the Mac version does, and I'm not aware of any that use ABC order. Namida has pointed out some ports of original Lemmings that do, but ONML had fewer versions in the first place.

[namida]

From what I recall, Win95 / PS1, as well as any DOS versions that also have the higher fall distance bug, will have the ABCABC order on that level.

With all this being said, I'll stress my point isn't "let's go by what Version B does instead of what Version A" does, and even "official ports don't agree" is really more of a footnote.

My biggest reasoning is: NeoLemmix uses an ABCABC order for three entrances, always. This may not have been true in the past - but the feature that allowed for a different order was specifically culled. Therefore, if a player sees three entrances, while they currently would have to specifically let the game run in order to see which order the three spawn in, they should be able to assume that once the third lemming's out, they won't be caught out by a hidden 4th one. Doubly so when the major selling point of the pack is that it specifically adapts the levels to NeoLemmix. It just makes no sense that, while exposing every other hidden object, and otherwise bringing levels up to NL standards where they don't already meet them; in the case of this one level, steps are specifically being taken to take it away from NL standards.

(In hindsight, I should have avoided all this by adopting a Master System / L3D -like means of handling multiple entrances - in these games, all entrances spawn simultaneously - but it's far too late for that now, the damage to existing content would be way too severe.)

[Proxima]

I see what you're saying, but in a pack where the aim is to make decisions on community consensus, it's hard to go against two votes that have both clearly favoured a different option. Also:

My biggest reasoning is: NeoLemmix uses an ABCABC order for three entrances, always.

That isn't really true. NL uses ABCABC order for three entrances unless there are stacked hatches to enforce a different order. And stacking hatches to enforce a desired order (or just to have more lemmings come out of one hatch than the other) has a long history, and there will be a lot of examples in older content that should eventually be ported to NL, since it's desirable to port as much older content as possible so that it doesn't have to be played on obsolete engines. (There may also be examples among content created in the NL era, although the only one I know of is "Tame Gone Wild", which is not a shining example, as the use there is very trollish.)

It's true that when porting older content, we could remove stacked hatches, maybe making whatever concomitant changes are necessary (as we did on "Triple Trouble", for example). But at the moment, there doesn't seem to be much reason why we should do this, since there does not seem to be a community consensus that stacking hatches is always unfair. This may change as debate on the issue continues.

So, I think what I'll do for now is end the current vote and move on to a vote for level inclusion. Who knows, we might still end up dropping Havoc 12 as a result of this vote

For the record, these are the standings of the Havoc 12 vote:
* Three hatches, ABCABC order: 3
* Duplicate the middle hatch without moving it: 6
* Duplicate the middle hatch and separate them: 1

[namida]

NL uses ABCABC order for three entrances unless there are stacked hatches to enforce a different order.

Incorrect. NL does not have any special handling for when multiple entrances overlap. What you are describing is a four-entrance level, which (as all four-entrance levels in NL do) has an ABCDABCD spawn order, with one of the entrances hidden behind another; not a three-entrance level.

there does not seem to be a community consensus that stacking hatches is always unfair.

There is consensus that hiding objects is unfair. I don't see why hatches specifically need their own seperate consensus from everything else.

Would you consider it fair to overlap multiple traps, so that it's harder / impossible to slip lemmings through via compression even though visually it looks like that's an option? Or to overlay multiple pickups so that the fact that the player gets more than the displayed count (and/or some other skills as well as the displayed one) is fair? I do not see any logic by which overlapping multiple hatches is different.

I could see an argument that exits (provided they don't have a lemming limit), water, etc are fair to overlap - because it makes no physics difference (though it could result in some minor graphical oddities - but not severe enough to obscure what's what, generally). However, for obvious reasons, they are also very pointless to overlap.

[Proxima]

The vote result shows that a decent number of people are willing to accept stacked hatches. You can ask why if you like (although please let's move the general debate out of the Redux thread) but that just seems to be how things are at the moment.

[Proxima]

Anyway, shelving this for now, let's get back to whether or not to (slightly) expand the pack. I've thought a bit more about this, and I think the best way to move forward would be to vote on the levels first, and then have a vote to make a decision on including more levels once we have a clearer picture of which levels we're seriously considering.

Please read carefully before voting: For this vote, I'd like everyone to imagine we're back in the early phase of putting the pack together, when we narrowed the selection of levels down by considering whether each one was worthy of being included, before we had very much idea of the total number of levels we would end up with.

So, I'd like you to vote yes/no on whether each level would be on your shortlist, and we'll see how things look once we have a decent number of votes. Also, if there's any other level you'd like to consider that hasn't been mentioned yet, feel free to bring it up -- this is the absolutely last chance to include any other levels in the pack.

[namida]

For me - Taxing 16, Taxing 18 and Mayhem 2 are all candidates. Mayhem 2 is the clear favorite of the three for me; I'm not sure which way around the other two would be.

Taxing 24 is somewhat interesting, and was borderline as to whether or not I selected it. Eventually it came down to - I'd rather not contribute to it distracting from three far better candidates here. I certainly wouldn't object to it though, I just don't see it as worth actively supporting. If it were included, it would need to be much closer to the start of the pack than it was in Orig, though. I think I would have thought similarly during the initial phase too, if we were conducting that now - that it's not a level that's a bad fit per se, but there's simply too many levels that are far better that I'd think it was a distraction, if that makes sense?

Wicked 4 I'm pretty neutral on. It's one of those "not particularly noticable, but that includes not noticable in a bad way" levels for me.

I personally don't think either Taxing 3 or Taxing 11 should be considered. However, I'd even more strongly say that if they are being considered, it should be on a "one or the other, not both" basis - and in such a case my preference would be Taxing 11, because it at least adds a little bit of extra stuff to do rather than purely just "build, build, build, don't run out of time". (And for Taxing 11, it could also be considered viable to remove the time limit; whereas I can't see that going down well for Taxing 3.) I would object to both, Taxing 3 a bit more so than 11, but not super strongly.

Which brings us to Mayhem 1, which is the only one on this list that I strongly oppose. The slightly interesting start and end do not make up for the tedious builderfest that comes inbetween, even when looked at only as a single level (rather than in comparison to several better candidates). A cut down version would be okay, but still not a particularly strong candidate - but the required cutting down would go far beyond what's generally being considered acceptable for Redux.

[Proxima]

I appreciate that the current vote is a bit simplistic in that it only allows saying yes or no, and not yes / neutral / strongly oppose, but I won't make any inclusion decisions just on the basis of this vote -- this one is mainly to see if we can eliminate some of the contenders from consideration, whether there are any that have particularly strong support, and whether there's enough overall support for additional levels to make it worth while continuing this line of inquiry at all.

[mobius]

Steel Works only if the latter portion is significantly altered. (that is removing the entire build up to the exit in the tight corridor and danger of running out of builders in that way). Even if the exit was just on the bottom beyond the pool; it would be easier but significantly more fun.

[Proxima]

Conversely, I think the build up to the exit is the most interesting part of "Steel Works" and the main reason for even considering it. The middle section is just straightforward building; the first part is quite interesting but there are plenty of other levels where the main challenge is to make a landing platform under a splat fall.

That said, with six votes so far and none in favour of "Steel Works", it's safe to say it will be bowing out at this stage. "Heaven can wait (we hope)" is in the same boat.

[WillLem]

Another quick shout out for increasing the number of levels in the pack, adding an extra rank, and decreasing the number of levels in each rank.

When LPing the first rank of Redux for the series, it felt waaayyy too long to be honest. Since it was the first episode and I was excited to be filming a full-length LP, I kind of overlooked this and so didn't mention it, but yes: 5 ranks of 26 (130) or 28 (140) would be better than 4 of 32 (128).

The best thing might be to have another look at which levels could be culled, and then have 5 of 25... buuut I get the feeling that means Mary Poppins' Land definitely won't be included, so go with 5 of 26 or 28!

Regarding the non-inclusion of Steel Works, that's fine... I suppose this and Nessy gives us reasons to go back to the original pack every now and then.

[Proxima]

The current pack is 5 x 32 (160). If we increase the pack size, the main options are 6 x 27 (162), 5 x 33 (165), or 6 x 28 (168). We could go above that to 175 or 180 if we could find enough worthwhile levels, but since we just had an open discussion and only the ones in the current vote were suggested, I don't think that's a possibility any more.

And just to be clear: as soon as this vote ends, or if the result is clear enough to call early, we will have a vote on whether or not to increase the number of levels, so "shout outs" are unnecessary.

If the vote goes against increasing the pack size, then we'll have a final vote on whether to replace "It's all a matter of timing" with one of the front runners of the current vote, but other than that, culling any levels that are currently in the pack is absolutely not on the table. We went through a very long selection process, and one of the guiding principles all the way along was that in terms of establishing community consensus, everything said for or against a level, even across different stages of the discussion, still counted. Removing a level now (for any reason other than intrinsic problems, such as when we removed "Oh No! Squish!" due to unfixable backroutes) would not only be disrespectful; it would undermine the selection process and make it impossible to make clear decisions going forward.

[WillLem]

The current pack is 5 x 32 (160). If we increase the pack size, the main options are 6 x 27 (162), 5 x 33 (165), or 6 x 28 (168).

OK, I'd suggest 6 x 28 then. Maybe even 7 x 24...

we will have a vote on whether or not to increase the number of levels, so "shout outs" are unnecessary.

My apologies - perhaps my choice of wording wasn't quite right. What I meant was that since the current discussion may lead to an increase in the number of levels in the pack, I felt it necessary to bring attention to the fact that doing so will also, by default, increase the number of levels in each rank. Since my opinion is that the ranks are already way too long at 32 levels each, it seemed relevant to include this point as a factor for consideration in the current discussion.

Removing a level now (for any reason other than intrinsic problems... would undermine the selection process and make it impossible to make clear decisions going forward.

Yes, I can see how that would be an issue. Since discussion regarding the levels has been opened up again, it initially seemed to make sense to include as many opinions regarding level selection at this stage as possible, especially now that Redux is bundled with NeoLemmix and therefore represents the current community.

However, if removing levels is already a no-go, then of course I agree on the basis of the reasons you presented (i.e. preserving previous decisions regarding the levels.)

[Proxima]

No, there's no default. The next vote will explicitly be between the options of 160, 162, 165 and 168.

They all have pros and cons. As well as the fact that 168 would require a bit more digging around to find suitable levels (although I do have ideas for that), going up to six ranks would require rethinking which levels go in each, with particular care at the end of each rank and the start of the next. I'll probably end up doing most of this work myself, since it would take a very long time to do it by consensus.

Another consideration that I only just thought of: six ranks would require six special graphics levels, presumably with "SUNSOFT Special" as the sixth (although since the pack currently treats "SEGA Four" as a special graphics level, adding "SEGA Five" is also a possibility). That means that 162 would only introduce one other new level, so that option would only really be worth considering if there was one level that had really strong support, which, at the moment, there isn't.

Another minor point: I don't have any really great ideas for a sixth rank name that fits nicely with the five we have. Of course, the extra rank name need not go at the end but could be slotted anywhere in the middle.

[namida]

adding "SEGA Five" is also a possibility

The only other SEGA level that's much of a worthwhile candidate would be the other version of SEGA Four.

Maybe a version of SEGA One or SEGA Two as an early-pack easy level could work, I guess - they're decent as early-game easy levels (but the repeats aren't much harder outside of a nasty time limit on one of them).

Another option is The Prima Publishing Level, though there isn't any obvious choice of special music to go with that one. I'd say The Covox Level isn't really unique enough, while The Apple Computer Level has obvious reasons against it.

One other option - is there any widely-liked L2 level outside the classic tribe that only uses (a subset of) the classic 8 skills? I wouldn't have suggested this originally, but given that the decision is long since made to include L2 classic levels, I don't see why a non-classic one (while still only using the classic skills) couldn't be considered for a special graphics level if a 6th one is needed.

[Proxima]

One other option - is there any widely-liked L2 level outside the classic tribe that only uses (a subset of) the classic 8 skills? I wouldn't have suggested this originally, but given that the decision is long since made to include L2 classic levels, I don't see why a non-classic one (while still only using the classic skills) couldn't be considered for a special graphics level if a 6th one is needed.

Interesting thought, but no. I had a look on The Lemmings Encyclopedia, and didn't find any levels (widely liked or not) using only the classic 8 skills. The closest is Caveman 1, which uses only stompers, builders and club bashers; but it has an object that (I'm guessing from the screenshot) flings the lemmings, which we can't replicate. In addition, nearly all L2 levels outside Classic are vertical scrolling.

[Proxima]

Okay. The current vote is stable enough to call. "Heaven can wait (we hope!)", "The ascending pillar scenario" and "Steel Works" are rejected and won't appear in the pack or in any subsequent votes.

The other levels ("Mary Poppins' Land", "Tribute to M. C. Escher", "Take a running jump", "The Boiler Room" and "Oh No! It's the 4th Dimension") all got 5 or 6 votes out of 9 -- enough support for them to remain in contention, but not enough that any of them must be included.

Therefore I don't feel it's necessary to expand the pack beyond 160 levels, but it's certainly possible if enough people feel it's desirable. Thus, time for another vote

There are two orthogonal questions here. Firstly: should the pack have five ranks or six? At five ranks, it's been felt that the number of levels per rank is a bit high, so spreading them out among six ranks makes sense. The main downsides to six ranks are the work involved in coming up with a level ordering; choosing a sixth special graphics level (although we could choose not to have one) and finding a good rank name. Secondly: should we stick with 160 levels (or 162, if we go up to six ranks) or should we let in a few more?

Please note: If the vote ends up favouring adding more levels, I will spend some time going over the old Redux topic to look for possibilities, in addition to the ones involved in the previous vote; we won't just blindly add the top two, five or eight of this vote. In particular, if 168 is the winning option, that does not re-add the three levels that were just rejected.

[WillLem]

Official WillLem Suggestion:

6 ranks of 27
Replace Matter of Timing with 4TH DIMENSION
Replace Old MacDonald with Mary Poppins' Land
Add Running Jump and Boiler Room to bring the total levels to 162

[Proxima]

Okay, time to wrap this up.

Eight people voted, which is fewer than I would like for such an important decision, but just about enough to give me confidence in making the call.

Six voted for keeping the pack at five ranks, which is a sizable majority, so that is the final decision. Five voted for a smaller number of levels (160 or 162) and the other three voted for both a fewer-levels and a more-levels option, so again, that's enough of a majority to call it for sticking to a smaller number.

So, we will stick with the current setup of five ranks, 32 levels each, and that is absolutely final from here on.

Regarding the recent discussion of possible levels to add if we did add some more: several decent suggestions came up, but none that stood out as must-haves, especially as it's now agreed that the official conversions of the full original levelpacks will remain, so all the levels excluded from Redux will still be maintained in NeoLemmix.

However, there's one possible inclusion/exclusion I want to settle with a separate vote, and then this discussion is completely wrapped up and we can move on to talismans (as well as other possible changes, if any). Of all the proposed inclusions, "The Boiler Room" stood out as having fairly strong reasons for inclusion, and ranked joint highest in the recent vote. "It's all a matter of timing" is the one level I would consider dropping, partly because it's not especially interesting as a puzzle; partly because it's problematic because of the stacked hatches (although the separate discussion topic seems to have reached a consensus that stacked hatches are okay, it's a bit weird to do this for just one level).

Obviously, there are arguments on the other side as well. In favour of including "It's all a matter of timing", it is substantially different from every other level in the pack, and it's interesting to have a builders-only puzzle. Against "The Boiler Room", there is a previous level ("Don't leave any Lemmings" from Genesis) showing bombing through a ceiling, so it lacks some of the shock value it had in the original game.

So, yes/no vote on whether we replace "It's all a matter of timing" with "The Boiler Room".

[Minim]

If this is OK, I thought I might just add the downloads for these levels for everyone to try. Just be warned that there are steel bits lurking around the exit platform in "The Boiler Room", but with Clear Physics Mode on this shouldn't be enough of a nuisance.

[Proxima]

Thank you, that's a good idea. If we use "The Boiler Room" then I'll tidy it to meet NeoLemmix standards as we've done for every other level in the pack.

[namida]

Against "The Boiler Room", there is a previous level ("Don't leave any Lemmings" from Genesis) showing bombing through a ceiling, so it lacks some of the shock value it had in the original game.

As I mentioned on Discord - I don't feel this is a particularly strong argument. "Don't Leave Any Lemmings" is a lot more clear in what needs to be done; "The Boiler Room" it's well hidden. Additionally, there are routes on DLAL that do not involve (at least, not intentionally) ceiling-bombing, at least not in any way that has a similar feel to Boiler Room.

[Proxima]

Sure. Just doing my best to summarise all the arguments, strong and weak, so that I'm not favouring either side in the vote. It's interesting to see that it's pretty evenly split so far!

[WillLem]

It's a difficult one to call since these two are such different levels. Can you give more specific details, i.e. what will the save requirements / skillset be for each level, what changes will be made? It might be easier to vote if there's more info about what the final product will look like.

Incidentally, for Boiler Room I'd suggest including miners and making a 100% save talisman

[Proxima]

Sure, I can do that. I've attached the fixed version of "The Boiler Room" to this post. (For "It's all a matter of timing", either look at the current Redux pack, or Minim's post further up.)

"It's all a matter of timing", if included, will have no changes from the current version. It will keep the four hatches, with the middle two stacked, because this was the outcome favoured by two votes, and namida's separate discussion seems to have resulted in the outcome that a majority feel stacked hatches are okay.

"The Boiler Room" will have 50 lemmings (to save 40), no time limit, steel only where there is visible steel, and the fire traps along the bottom adjusted so that lemmings walking down the spikes burn rather than drop off the level. The skillset will be unchanged.

We will not add miners. I guess the suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, but to remind everyone: Redux is not a pack of derivative levels. It may sometimes seem that way with the changes we have made, but all the changes are either to NeoLemmix-ise the levels (e.g. removing time limits, removing unnecessary blockers) or to improve the playing experience (revealing traps, fixing glaring backroutes). A change that permits a solution that wasn't possible on the original level would not be okay, except where this is an unavoidable consequence of time limit removal -- and even then, we would take a serious look at whether the new solution was different enough that it might be worth making an exception and keeping the time limit on that one level.

Finally, I know you are keen on your 100% saves, but this being possible on all levels was never part of the original game and there's no reason it should be on Redux either. 100% on "The Boiler Room" was only ever possible with an unintended glitch.

I accept that at the moment, there is no level that really shows breaking through a ceiling with non-bomber destructive skills; if we felt it urgent to have such a level, we could have included Wild 9 "Ice Station Lemming" or Blizzard 7 "Break on through". But at this stage, I feel it's too late to consider either level, when we've just voted to keep the pack at 160 levels; those two levels lost out in the original selection process; and both are execution-over-puzzle types that would be unlikely to win a vote-off against any currently included level.

[Minim]

Sure, I can do that. I've attached the fixed version of "The Boiler Room" to this post.

Just played it now. Nice work! However, the Author's name "Amiga Lemmings" wasn't filled in. That should be easy to fix. May I also suggest the direction of the entrance be changed to left instead of right. Otherwise good job.

[Proxima]

May I also suggest the direction of the entrance be changed to left instead of right. Otherwise good job.

That would make it harder to trap the lemmings with a builder wall, in case the player wants to do that.

[WillLem]

In favour of including "It's all a matter of timing", it is substantially different from every other level in the pack, and it's interesting to have a builders-only puzzle
---
"It's all a matter of timing", if included, will... keep the four hatches, with the middle two stacked

I voted this way principally because I agree that it's good to have a builders-only level, and this is both an interesting puzzle and a great level to play pause-free. It does kind of stand out as a "naughty" level because of the stacked hatches thing, but as you've mentioned most of the community seem to be generally OK with stacked hatches, depending on how they're used.

The Boiler Room is a great level, though, and the Redux version of it is decent. So... either way is good, but I've voted Timing because I just have more solid reasons for thinking it should be included.

We will not add miners. I guess the suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, but to remind everyone: Redux is not a pack of derivative levels

Yeah, fair enough. Redux is not really a remix pack and I suppose what I'm suggesting constitutes a remix level. Redux is more like a remastered greatest hits

[Proxima]

"The Boiler Room" wins 7-5 after a very exciting contest It was neck and neck for a long while, then TBR pulled ahead, then WillLem's vote closed the gap a little so I couldn't call it early, but still, a clear enough winner.

For fans of "It's all a matter of timing", I've made a decision. Not only will the level still appear in the NeoLemmix conversions of the full levelpacks, but since the ABC and ABCB versions are substantially different and both did appear in official versions of ONML, I will keep both as separate levels. (Right now currently leaning towards ABCB for Havoc 12 and the ABC version in Extra Levels, but that's a decision for later.)

So, to recap, the level selection and ordering are absolutely final now. We will keep to 160 levels, with "It's all a matter of timing" replaced with "The Boiler Room" and no other selection changes. Manic 11 "Where Lemmings Dare" and Manic 31 "With a twist of lemming, please" will switch places, with no other ordering changes.

All that's left is to make a final decision regarding talismans. I'll make another post going over the options and put up a poll later today.

[Minim]

Just got the NeoLemmix update from the website; However V12.9.3 has replaced Proxima's updated changes that I made. I've gone ahead and made all the changes (again) and have attached the updated level pack below. Now we just need the website to upload the updared content.

[Proxima]

I've updated the first post of the topic with the latest version of Lemmings Redux, which is compatible with NeoLemmix 12.10.

Changes:

* The Boiler Room has replaced It's all a matter of timing as Lunatic 2. (NB: I am still maintaining a separate conversion of original Lemmings for NeoLemmix, and this will contain It's all a matter of timing in both its 3-hatch and 4-hatch versions. It will, however, be a while before I have time to post an update, so please be patient.)
* Where Lemmings Dare has switched places with With a twist of lemming, please, so the former is now Manic 31 and the latter is now Manic 11.
* If at first you don't succeed has no water, which was a decision made a long time ago, but for some reason the version with water was still included in the pack up to now.
* Which one are you trying to get? has only 3 trapdoors, so 10 lemmings will drop from each.

No changes have been made as yet regarding talismans. Since there won't be time to make decisions and get an absolutely final version of Redux ready before NL 12.10's stable version, I will wait for the stable version to be out and then re-post a summary of where we are up to with talismans and post a poll.

[Proxima]

12.10 stable is out! It's time to start wrapping up talisman selection so that we can produce a once-and-for-all final version of Lemmings Redux.

Discussion of new talismans was mostly on pages 2-4 of this topic, with this post in particular being a summary of the situation so far (which hasn't changed since then). The changes to level selection mostly don't affect talismans: none were proposed for "It's all a matter of timing", and the talisman on "Which one are you trying to get?" still works. As for "The Boiler Room", possible talismans would be "save 49/50", "no blockers" or "6 builders"; I'm fairly neutral on whether any of those should be chosen.

There are currently 36 talismans. Only a couple have been suggested for possible removal: "The Great Lemming Caper" no blockers, and "PoP YoR ToP" bombers only (since the latter is not possible on the original game). The above-linked post contains a list of 15 possible new talismans, mostly being my own selection from the max-saved and SYCLW challenges.

Since there hasn't been much input from anyone else as to which talismans to select, I've decided to put up a poll for how many talismans we should have, and once that's settled, we can decide on which ones. Please note: you can select up to 3 options, so that if you think the number of talismans should be in the range 40-48, you can select "40", "44" and "48". Please don't abuse this by making an incoherent vote such as "36", "48" and "50".

This vote is not strictly binding. If, for example, 44 wins, then I'll take it we should include some but not all of the proposed new talismans, and run further discussion on that basis; the final number won't necessarily be 44 exactly (and might not even be a multiple of 4).

32: We would have to remove four existing talismans, but this would mean the number of talismans would be exactly 1/5 of the number of levels.
36: The current number. If this wins, I will still ask for consideration on whether we should remove some existing talismans in favour of new ones.
40: Exactly 1/4 of the number of levels.
44: We would select some but not all of the proposed new talismans.
48: We would accept nearly all of the proposed new talismans, in addition to cutting some existing ones.
50: This is a nice round number and an easy target to arrive at: we could accept all the new talismans and cut "PoP YoR ToP" to arrive at 50 exactly.
More than 50: This would require finding additional new talismans as well as my proposed list.

[namida]

If going for a low-builders talisman on The Boiler Room, I would set it at 7 rather than 6. Cutting out that extra builder is mostly just a matter of "do everything pixel-precise". The overall approach doesn't change. "Save 49" implies no blockers anyway; because you cannot solve it without at least one bomber, and have no other way to free blockers, so I'd think a "no blockers" talisman borders on pointless here.

So - I would say either "Save 49" as a Bronze, or "7 builders" as either Silver or Gold, I'm on the fence as to which. Leaning a bit more towards Silver.

I have no preference whatsoever on total amount of talismans, either overall or per-color. Consider quantity my vote to be for, exactly whatever number of worthwhile candidates are brought up.

[Proxima]

I have no preference whatsoever on total amount of talismans, either overall or per-color. Consider quantity my vote to be for, exactly whatever number of worthwhile candidates are brought up.

If you have time, could you look through my list of 15 (linked in the post above) and tell me which ones from those you consider worthwhile?

[Minim]

This may have been posted in May, but seeing this properly for the first time, thanks for this awesome list! I'm enjoying most of these talismans and delving each one into detail. Looking forward to doing more of this, but here are the first five talismans I'm going to talk about. Some of my replays are attached too.

{1} Chill out! - No climbers
{2} Acrophobia - Save 100% or no diggers
{3} No justice for the hero - Save 100%
{4} Lemmy in the cold, cold ground - No bashers or no miners
{5} Going Their Separate Ways - Max 20 skills

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

{1} I admire the obscurity but I don't like this one. Without blockers, I had to do several repetitive (and pixel precise) skill assignments to prevent any lemming from falling into the pit below.

{2} Great challenge! I really like the way I used the builders here, building from the miner back onto the basher's tunnel but not quite sealing it and then stacking multiple builders. (This is the pixel precise part, but as long as the builders are placed to help the lemmings home then that's OK. )

{3} This is probably one of the only talismans where the first lemming isn't required to do anything, and that it's not always on the same start screen. With a high release rate that can't be controlled very much, I had to think which lemming needed to become digger so that just one lemming turns to the right and has a long enough gap to build a bridge at the far end. It takes a few tries to get right, but it's another cool solution, although not much as it appears on paper to do, I think this talisman should be added to the game, as a bronze/silver.

{4} This is the only one I didn't do a replay for. I've seen these solutions before, but discovered an abnormality: Two replays downloaded for No basher solutions and One for No miner. The builders/bashers one looks simple to find but bashing in the wrong place can run your bashers out. The builder/miner method doesn't look that obvious, but with about 80% of the level being terrain the miners can carve very long tunnels. The No miners challenge is better, not only because there hasn't been a "No miner" talisman before but the obscurity of the solution I've watched should promote the talisman to silver or gold.

{5} This is a great challenge, but reasonably open, as I can currently count four different ways of doing this: Two of them take the left exit, one for the right, and another one I found takes both exits. The right solution I found abuses the background (Much to the chagrin of Gary Timmons ) but is very obscure. All three solutions involving left exits require a safety bridge, and completing that can save you up to 8 floaters, making the talisman easier to solve. Two of the three solutions require release rate changes in order to set up the safety net quicker, and requires a precise release rate and a precise builder to make this work. Afterwards, you can up the rate to 99 and cram the lemmings into a single pit and let them build out once the main bridge is complete OR leave it open and assign builders to whoever leads to cross the gaps, climbing the ones in any pits out afterwards. For the last one, I simply challenged myself to create a safety net without RR changes, and I succeeded! This one looks more elegant and requires a fair bit of multitasking but it's easier to get than the other two. I wonder with this solution alone that it will be enough to demote this talisman to bronze?

[Minim]

Now, the rest of the levels. I think it would be helpful to name the rank and order each of these levels appear in. But anyway, here's the last 10. Some more of my replays are attached for some of the levels, along with some more spoilery comments.

{6} SNOW JOKE - 1 basher
{7} Worra load of old blocks - No diggers
{8} ROCKY ROAD - 2 builders (this would be in addition to the existing "Save 100%" talisman)
{9} Steel Block Party - No builders
{10} Be more than just a number - Save 100%
{11} Fix the road, quick - Save 100% with 10 builders
{12} SEGA Four - No climbers
{13} With a twist of lemming, please - No climbers
{14} Temple of Love - Save 29/30
{15} Save Me - Save 45/50

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

{6} Thanks to the added time, I think I backrouted this challenge heavily. Although this comes with RR changes thanks to the uneven terrain, I simply bashed under the floor and built round the back of the exit ledge. Cutting the time down or simply shortening the level further will remove the problem. Otherwise, Avoid.

{7} Just seen the solution to this one. With no diggers, there's only one possible way to get down here. However, the trick used right at the end with the builders and fall height is unbelievable! To pull that off takes some doing. This talisman should be added, preferably as silver/gold.

{8} Haven't done this one yet, because with just two builders and also that you can't use bombers because of 100%, that's a tough order even if you do know where the builders should go. If this isn't too annoying to execute we'll put this talisman in as a Gold one.

{9} Very clever solution that involves pretty much everything: Altering the basher's position, blocking to organise the lemmings and then using a different block of steel which looks completely irrelevant compared to the rest of the level to your advantage. This really takes trapping and freeing the pack to another level. (E.g. Mayhem 20) There's also a bit of RR modifying required to pull the first trick off correctly but otherwise a solution that requires sheer expansive knowledge of mechanics, even though the level is so short. Probably one of the gold contenders considering the obscurity.

{10} Haven't solved this one, but saw the downloaded replay and it's another clever solution. Anyway, starting with a climber looks tempting. However, because the climber is permanent, and there are several climbable walls that lead to danger on this level you'll find yourself in heaps of trouble. A simple holy staircase is useless for 100% as you need the two diggers for the thin red floors and that you want to avoid the blocker for a landscape with so much steel. Building when landing on the top of an opposite facing stair to create a holy staircase is genius crowd control, and doesn't look viable in such a tight area where it's so close to the death ceiling; but it's one possible way to get 100% while saving skills for more important parts of the level. If this is the only viable method, add this talisman in as Gold.

{11} Solved with a replay atttached. A true classic. Given that you have only builders to work with, and that they have to annoyingly be built in precisely the right places, it's mostly about organising the lemmings well enough for what lies ahead. I made only one RR modification, upping the rate to 99 after the first lemming came out to cram them into a newly-made pit and then followed the published eight builder solution from there, taking turns with different lemmings to create stairs so that two lemmings emerged through with enough distance between them to complete the next two tasks: Building another "wall" and building another bridge. Given the level itself is in Lunatic, should we make this a Silver?

{12} I saw a published 17-skill solution that used every skill bar climbers. It was enjoyable except for the last part, which needed several skill changes, precise skill placement and timing, and advanced lemming control, similar to the first talisman. Unless there's an easier way to propel the lemmings up to the exit, (Which doesn't look likely as you need three builders to cross the gaps and two builders to summit the steel block) Avoid.

{13} Manic 11's talisman replay attached. I think I tried and failed this one before, but this time I managed to get it (Though it took me a long while). Once a route is worked out, this talisman involves trial and error while using two certain release rates, and then you have to float nine other lemmings to land exactly in the same place. I'm on the fence with this one. Should we motivate these players and include this talisman? I believe talismans are just an additional part of the game rather than the main part.

{14} Just saw the solution to this. A great challenge and should be added in as a gold. It looks like there isn't much to the solution initially. Controlling the crowd is the easy part. The first part of the route is also straightforward. The hard part is the exit facing the other direction. The blocker placement is obvious; but even with that, with no wall guarding the lemmings behind them on that second platform, they seem to be destined for doom. A simple digger to released the crowd isn't enough, you'll need to buy time to build across that gap; Hence, this talisman's impossible so far without RR changes. That part, combined with the extra lemming requirement makes this one worthy for gold. You'll need to look at all the important areas AND play around with different things to make this one count.

{15} After seeing the published Save 45 solution, there are great points worth pointing out here. It's very hard to isolate two workers from the crowd when you already need at least one worker to make a counter bridge. After that, you'll need to not only get these two lemmings down the digger's tunnel but also to separate them for the last (and probably the most famous) part, the builder blockers on the platform edges. Clearly the solver observed the terrain where to dig. The placement of the digger on that broken pillar is ingenious, giving the solver lots of time for the first lemming to complete an important step of the stair. This is another wonderful challenge and well worthy to be included as a Gold talisman.

So, only three talismans I thoroughly disagree with so far. Adding all my agreeable ones in to the existing lot would increase the tally to 48, which makes a nice multiple of three. However, I appear to be the only one so far to have voted for three options: 40, 44 and 48.

[Proxima]

{8} Haven't done this one yet, because with just two builders and also that you can't use bombers because of 100%, that's a tough order even if you do know where the builders should go.

Sorry, you've misunderstood. The proposed talisman for ROCKY ROAD is "Solve the level with maximum 2 builders". The note "this would be in addition to the existing 'Save 100%' talisman" means that I am proposing both talismans should exist (even though this would then be the only level in Redux with more than one), not that I am suggesting a talisman with both requirements!

(Indeed, the level's current result for "What skills do you need for 100%?" is 5 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, strongly suggesting that 100% with only 2 builders is impossible. That's for the DOS version, but I expect the NL result would be the same or very similar.)

Other than that, thank you for some great feedback!

[namida]

* Chill out! - No climbers

Is there any other talisman currently, that requires this trick? If not, I would think this one is worth adding. If there is, I would vote against it, as there's basically nothing to this beyond that one trick.

* Acrophobia - Save 100% or no diggers

I'd go for No Diggers.

* No justice for the hero - Save 100%

I can't figure this one out.

* Lemmy in the cold, cold ground - No bashers or no miners

I remember both of these being quite interesting.

* Going Their Separate Ways - Max 20 skills

I'd suggest No Climbers instead.


I'll have to look at the rest later.

For my own reference (click to show/hide)

* SNOW JOKE - 1 basher
* Worra load of old blocks - No diggers
* ROCKY ROAD - 2 builders (this would be in addition to the existing "Save 100%" talisman)
* Steel Block Party - No builders
* Be more than just a number - Save 100%
* Fix the road, quick - Save 100% with 10 builders
* SEGA Four - No climbers
* With a twist of lemming, please - No climbers
* Temple of Love - Save 29/30
* Save Me - Save 45/50

[Minim]

{8} Haven't done this one yet, because with just two builders and also that you can't use bombers because of 100%, that's a tough order even if you do know where the builders should go.

Sorry, you've misunderstood. The proposed talisman for ROCKY ROAD is "Solve the level with maximum 2 builders". The note "this would be in addition to the existing 'Save 100%' talisman" means that I am proposing both talismans should exist (even though this would then be the only level in Redux with more than one), not that I am suggesting a talisman with both requirements!

(Indeed, the level's current result for "What skills do you need for 100%?" is 5 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, strongly suggesting that 100% with only 2 builders is impossible. That's for the DOS version, but I expect the NL result would be the same or very similar.)

Other than that, thank you for some great feedback!

No problem, Proxima.

And whoops, that was a rather hilarious mistake that was well spotted on {8}! Also, as I apparently had no replay attached for {2}, my comments are referring to the "no diggers" talisman. I thought I had to do both requirements here too, but using the bomber as part of the solution, I kinda forgot about it.

OK, time to redo {8} and a possible "No Climbers" talisman for "Going Their Separate Ways".

[Minim]

OK, had a proper look at this today. The newly proposed ROCKY ROAD talisman (2 builders) is a long analysis, so I'll highlight the tricks required in bold. My replay is attached too. In short, it should be added as a Gold talisman.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

{8} With only two builders, you'll first need to work out what areas can be crossed with just two builders, not to mention the chameleon (And later the grass) trap. Even so, you'll need to work out ways to actually access these areas. You'll need to highlight the obstacles on the landscape and try different digging skills, because you only have six of those in total even without the talisman, with just two of them being bashers. The published solution involves expert crowd control after advancing through the tree, by setting a 99RR to cram them together and letting the last lemming mine the gem wall to keep the others packed. A miner is framestepped at just the right moment before turning it into a blocker, rather than a builder. Now the level can't be solved can it? There's only one way to counteract this: Releasing the blocker by letting another lemming bomb immediately next to it. With this trick, you can do this with any lemming you like, but I simply used the last lemming. Now they have a worker ready to plant the first bridge without anybody to worry about. Now the next gap: The one at the bottom is out of reach, so only the top gap can be crossed, but you are so low down from crossing that first gap, how can you reach up there? A basher is still available, so use that. To reach up to the grass above, another framestep with the basher's third stroke will enable the lemmings to reach the grassy area smoothly without the incline being too steep while also making it to the trap. The basher can simply be blocked when the moment arrives. Crowd control and isolating workers is a bit more difficult this time around, as you only have bombers, the builder to cross the gap and still need the digger/miner for the last part. At this stage look at the number of lemmings you can lose. If you're good enough at blocker stopping the number can be as high as 8. You'll need a group of lemmings once you release the blocker while keeping the majority at bay for a short while. I highlighted the eighth-to-last lemming to bomb next to the blocker. This should give you at least three lemmings to sacrifice for the grass trap and then build the last gap. The published solution exchanged the digger on that tree for a miner, but it only works if that bomber crater on the gem wall is placed so that lemmings can walk over it, making this method less reliable. Alternatively you could mine the tree twice and use a digger. If you can afford to lose another lemming you could turn the leader into a blocker underneath the second stair and dig at the far right edge with someone in the crowd, which is what I did.

So, a bit like a Core 4 Maths A-Level question really. Just piece all the parts together, keep experimenting and you'll get the talisman. I used 17 different actions in my solution. This question really is worth at least 16 marks and an overall higher grade.

[namida]

If going for a low-builders talisman on The Boiler Room, I would set it at 7 rather than 6. Cutting out that extra builder is mostly just a matter of "do everything pixel-precise". The overall approach doesn't change. "Save 49" implies no blockers anyway; because you cannot solve it without at least one bomber, and have no other way to free blockers, so I'd think a "no blockers" talisman borders on pointless here.

So - I would say either "Save 49" as a Bronze, or "7 builders" as either Silver or Gold, I'm on the fence as to which. Leaning a bit more towards Silver.

I have no preference whatsoever on total amount of talismans, either overall or per-color. Consider quantity my vote to be for, exactly whatever number of worthwhile candidates are brought up.

For The Boiler Room, 12 skills (a definite gold) could also be an option.

[namida]

* No justice for the hero - Save 100%

I got this one now. Yes, this is worthy of being a talisman. Silver, I'd say.

* SNOW JOKE - 1 basher

Only if there's no other similar talisman already. Bronze.

* Worra load of old blocks - No diggers

From memory, this was really finnicky, I'm not sure if it's the best idea?

* ROCKY ROAD - 2 builders (this would be in addition to the existing "Save 100%" talisman)

I'd think it's a bit weird to have exactly one level with multiple talismans, unless it's special in some other way (such as being the final level). However, on a "one or the other" basis, I'd say go with 2 builders, and it's not even close - 100% is not very difficult at all (certianly not worthy of gold!); on the other hand, 2 builders would be a great gold talisman.

* Steel Block Party - No builders

This is absolutely brilliant! Yes, definitely, and I'd say this is worthy of gold.

* Be more than just a number - Save 100%

Neutral on this one. Bronze.

For next time (click to show/hide)

* Fix the road, quick - Save 100% with 10 builders
* SEGA Four - No climbers
* With a twist of lemming, please - No climbers
* Temple of Love - Save 29/30
* Save Me - Save 45/50

[namida]

* Fix the road, quick - Save 100% with 10 builders

Sure. Silver.

* SEGA Four - No climbers

No climbers is kind of a frustrating timing one. I suggest no diggers as a more interesting possibility - I could see it going either way between Silver and Gold. You could further make this "no diggers, save 19", I'm not sure how much value the save 19 adds here.

* With a twist of lemming, please - No climbers

No, too fiddly.

* Temple of Love - Save 29/30

Sure. Silver.

* Save Me - Save 45/50

Sure. Bronze or maybe Silver.

[Proxima]

So, the voting was rather inconclusive. Only four people voted, which isn't too surprising -- Redux polls haven't been getting much attention, and a lot of people aren't all that interested in talismans. There was one vote for 36, one for 40-48, one for 50 and one for 50+. So all I can really glean from that is that overall, increasing the number is favoured, but no specific number is favoured. So I'll look through the recent feedback, make decisions, and see what we end up with.

Firstly, based on feedback and having another look at the levels myself, I am withdrawing these from consideration:

* SNOW JOKE, 1 basher: This is done by bashing under the entire level and building up to the exit from the right. It's interesting that this is possible in NL, but doesn't feel talisman-worthy; and it would be impossible on the original level due to the time limit.
* SEGA Four, no climbers: Neither commenter liked this one very much.
* With a twist of lemming, please, no climbers: Namida found this "too fiddly" and Minim wasn't a fan either.

These were liked by both commenters and are definitely going in:

* No justice for the hero, save 100%
* ROCKY ROAD, 2 builders (maybe as a replacement for the current talisman)
* Steel Block Party, no builders

That means the minimum we can now have is 37 (if the PoP YoR ToP talisman and ROCKY ROAD's existing talisman are dropped), while the maximum is 47, if we keep both those and all the ones still under discussion. (We could, of course, include others not on the current list, but since no-one has suggested any and the discussion isn't attracting much interest, I would like to get it wrapped up as soon as possible.)

I need to check ROCKY ROAD, since namida (in discord) implied that it's possible to save 100% with only 2 builders, which seems improbable.

I'll have a play through all the talismans still under discussion and make a final decision, taking feedback into account, in the next week or two, so this is the last chance for anyone else to chime in with their opinions.

[namida]

I need to check ROCKY ROAD, since namida (in discord) implied that it's possible to save 100% with only 2 builders, which seems improbable.

No, sorry, I might have not been clear - the existing talisman, for 100%, is not worthy of gold, and personally I don't think worthy of a talisman at all. On the other hand, 2 builders (with no further requirements) is worthy of being a gold talisman.

[Proxima]

Okay, time to try to wrap this up. I'll go through the suggested talismans one by one and post thoughts, taking feedback into account.

* Chill out! - No climbers. This invites very fiddly solutions (see Minim's replay). Namida said he would vote for it, unless we already have a talisman using the same trick (turning lemmings with bashers and diggers only). I think that Across the Gap - 1 builder, while not exactly the same, is pretty closely related. Still, it's interesting that no-climber is possible and it's different enough from the normal solution, so I'm indecisive on this one, which is a great start Maybe leave this until we have a clearer idea of the numbers.

* Acrophobia - Save 100% or no diggers. Both commenters liked the no diggers talisman, so we'll go with that one.

* Lemmy in the cold, cold ground - No bashers or no miners. Minim preferred no miners, but not for a great reason; namida found them both interesting. I solved no bashers myself during SYCLW; I had another go at it just now and found it pretty easy. Then I tried no miners, and it's also pretty easy. That isn't a bad thing -- we need some bronze talismans -- but it does make it hard to decide between the two options! (Unlike "Going Their Separate Ways" below, we can't combine the two possibilities by having a minimum total skills talisman. Both no bashers and no miners use 10 skills (all 5 builders and 5 of the other destructive skill) while the minimum skills is 6 (a nice balanced 2 of each).

* Going Their Separate Ways - Max 20 skills. As Minim said, this is fairly open as it includes both the no-climbers and the no-floaters solution, so it would be bronze. But I like the idea of that, especially as we don't have any other "max N skills" talismans at the moment. So I'm inclined to include this one.

* Worra load of old blocks - No diggers. Namida points out that this is very fiddly, but Minim likes it. Undecided for now.

* Be more than just a number - Save 100%. I've always liked this solution and I think it's one we should keep. (Minim likes it; namida is neutral.)

* Fix the road, quick - Save 100% with 10 builders. This level gives a lot of leeway, so it's definitely a strong candidate for a 100% talisman, whether or not we add the builders requirement. Minim calls it "a true classic".

* Temple of Love - Save 29. Minim says this is "a great challenge", namida likes it, and it's always been one of my favourite max-saves challenges ever since I first worked it out, so this is definitely going in.

* Save Me - Save 45. This isn't really all that much harder than solving the level; it's not the maximum possible (47 on NL, achieved by a very different method), and doesn't enforce any particular linchpin. It's okay but I'm not wild about it, though Minim and namida both like it.

In summary, after a first look over all the suggested talismans, the following ones are definitely accepted: No justice for the hero, ROCKY ROAD, Steel Block Party, Acrophobia, Going Their Separate Ways, Be more than just a number, Fix the road, quick, Temple of Love.

That's 8 new talismans, which puts us on 42 (if we drop PoP YoR ToP and ROCKY ROAD's "save 100%"). It's a nice number, for reasons completely unrelated to Lemmings but I don't want to just stop there without giving more consideration to the ones I'm still undecided about. We might have to have another poll

Let's see whether considering the bronze/silver/gold numbers helps. Excluding the two we're considering dropping, the existing numbers are 7/16/11. Of the new ones:

No justice for the hero - Namida suggests silver, which sounds about right.
ROCKY ROAD (2 builders) - Definitely gold. It's harder than the existing "save 100%" talisman.
Steel Block Party - Both commenters suggested gold, and it is indeed a tricky challenge, so I'm okay with that.
Acrophobia - Most likely silver?
Going Their Separate Ways - Almost certainly bronze.
Be more than just a number - Minim suggests gold and namida suggests bronze Maybe we should split the difference?
Fix the road, quick - Silver seems right for this.
Temple of Love - Minim suggests gold, namida silver. Personally I think it could be gold.

So, that would put us at 8/20/14.

As for where the undecided ones would go... Chill out! could be silver or gold; Lemmy in the cold, cold ground is definitely bronze (whichever of the two we choose); Worra load of old blocks most likely gold; Save Me could be bronze or silver.

Okay, I think I see what to do, but this is a long post already so I'll put it in another post.

[Proxima]

Decision time!

I haven't had enough feedback to decide for certain which talismans to include and which not, even when taking my own feelings into account as well. One possibility would be to use nice, round numbers as a decider -- and I absolutely would do that if there were just one talisman suggestion I was still unsure about -- but it doesn't feel right to do that when there are three or four.

So, another poll, but a very simple one. Eight of the suggested new talismans are definitely accepted (see the post above), putting the numbers at 8/20/14. We will go with one of the following three options, and I've put up a poll to decide between them. I am not expecting a large turnout, so I may well call it early if one option is ahead after the first few votes.

Feel free to vote on any basis, whether you like one set of numbers better than the other, or if there's a particular talisman in one of the options that you especially like or dislike.

Option A: Include talismans for Chill out! and Worra load of old blocks, both as gold, for totals of 8/20/16.

Option B: Include talismans for Lemmy in the cold, cold ground and Save Me as bronze, and one of the two golds, for 10/20/15. (We would have to have further votes for which talisman for Lemmy and which gold; I would give at most one week for each vote.)

Option C: Reject all four, sticking with 8/20/14.

[namida]

My comments; mostly just my input on colors.

No Justice For The Hero (100%) - Silver, as mentioned earlier.
Rocky Road (2 builders) - I stand by what I said earlier, definite gold.
Steel Block Party (no builders) - Gold for sure.
Acrophobia (no digger) - I'd lean towards gold for this one, but it's very close.
Going Their Separate Ways (max 20 skills) - I would note that there are solutions that use some (but not all) of both permanent skills, that are easier than the no-climbers or no-floaters solutions themself. However, if the goal here is an easy talisman, max 20 skills + bronze sounds good to me.
Be More Than Just A Number (save 100%) - I do stand by that I think bronze, but it's towards the upper end of bronze so I could accept silver. Indeed it is a hard solution; it's just that it's not much harder than solving the level in the first place.
Fix The Road, Quick (100% 10 builders) - Silver, as stated earlier.
Temple of Love (save 29) - I still think silver, but gold could work.

Chill Out (no climber) - I really can't see this one as being worthy of gold. It's certianly silver-worthy, no doubt about that, but yeah, I don't think it makes the cut for gold.
Lemmy In The Cold Cold Ground () - Upon trying these again (rather than just from memory), no bashers is a tad fiddly, could go either way between bronze or silver but I'd lean more towards bronze. No miners is a lot cleaner, I'd say bronze in and of itself, and it would be my preference of the two. But a third possibility here that I discovered now: "No miners + max 2 builders". This one is a solid silver.
Worra Lorra Old Blocks (no digger) - Definitely a gold if it is making the cut.
Save Me (save 45) - Bronze, in particular due to there being several ways to achieve it.


Out of the options presented I voted for "B", but this is very much on a "had to pick something" basis (well, I guess I could have abstained, but you know what I mean). As stated, I personally don't care much about the "nice" numbers and would rather come to a decision on each individual talisman, keeping in mind that it doesn't do too much harm (as long as they're not redundant) to have extra ones and so a "if on the fence, just accept it" approach could theoretically be used.

[Minim]

I made a quick vote for Option B.

I also realise I haven't mentioned a colour for the "Acrophobia" talisman in one of my original posts. I don't see this as gold at all, but a silver seems more reasonable. After all, it's only a "one way to get down without a skill" puzzle. Also, it shouldn't be higher than the "Temple of Love" talisman because the former's route is eventually "hold and release" while the latter's is one of those "impeding death" types. So yeah, "Temple of Love" must be gold, and "Acrophobia" silver.

I had a look at Across the Gap's talisman today. I haven't solved it, but I agree with Proxima that the techniques involved are similar to the Chill Out talisman. It is fiddly, but "Across the Gap" has more skills.

"Be more than just a number" OK, I guess we'll have to split the vote and go silver.

"Lemmy..." I like the no miners solution better, and we'll add this as bronze. It's great to hear namida was also able to complete it with 2 builders.

"Save Me" I must've thought 45 was the maximum requirement for this level when I posted my review. Glad that it's not. OK, I'll agree with bronze for this level.

[WillLem]

I would vote for using all four for a total of 10/20/16, but the option isn't there.

People who enjoy talismans will likely appreciate having more to go for, and people who don't like them, or who just ignore them, won't care anyway.

The four talismans being proposed all seem very reasonable. Don't overthink it, just include them all!

[namida]

I also realise I haven't mentioned a colour for the "Acrophobia" talisman in one of my original posts. I don't see this as gold at all, but a silver seems more reasonable. After all, it's only a "one way to get down without a skill" puzzle. Also, it shouldn't be higher than the "Temple of Love" talisman because the former's route is eventually "hold and release" while the latter's is one of those "impeding death" types. So yeah, "Temple of Love" must be gold, and "Acrophobia" silver.

While I can definitely see both of them going either way (even if I do have a slight preference for each of them), I don't think this is good reasoning in and of itself. You can have levels that use a "impending death" type setup yet are much easier than ones with very tricky crowd control - as an example, I don't think anyone would claim that "Drought Season" from LPII is harder than "Drawing Dead" from LPO2; despite that the latter contains the crowd while the former does not. Personally, the trick I used for Acrophobia no-digger I would consider more advanced than the timing needed for Temple Of Love save-29.

[Minim]

OK, I've had a look at both of namida's LP levels and their solutions.

I think I might've used the term "impending death" in the wrong sense, as seen in the solution to "Drought Season". Because you can't pull off that kind of solution in either level thanks to high requirements, I'm sorry for bringing up such a poor argument case. See if I can do better than this.

The "Acrophobia" route is more clear cut, which is why I thought silver was the right choice. However, the techniques required to control & release the crowd are more advanced by about three-fold, but I thought as it involves the same trick as in "I have a cunning plan" players would have no problem in pulling this sort of thing off.  The fact that it must be done inside the created tunnel, and that you still need to hold the crowd makes it more challenging. OK, that last part of the argument makes me more convinced now that this more worthy of gold.

For "Temple of love", I was looking at that glaring space in the water behind where the worker lands on after he creates the first long bridge, and that was when I used the term "impending death". The route seems implausible in the other direction given that you still need another builder to turn them to the exit. Two blockers would've been handy to keep the lemmings safe while the required final stair guides them to the exit, but as it's Save 29, you'll need to think of something that gives the lemmings enough time to find safety. The fact that this is also done on a created route and also that it requires self belief gave me the impression that gold was my choice of colour.

[Proxima]

So... the voting was too close for a clear conclusion and had very few votes, which again isn't surprising, especially as maybe the way I presented the options wasn't the best.

It makes me a bit sad that this is getting so little participation, when we've had enough to keep the momentum going throughout the project up to this point and always had enough that I could feel reasonably confident in making decisions backed by consensus, but the question of talismans is obviously messy and most people don't seem to mind, so I think I will just look again through the feedback, make the decision that feels the most right, and go with that.

That decision is basically option A outlined above, with one exception: "Chill out" will be demoted to silver and "Acrophobia" will be promoted to gold.

I also need to look over the levels one last time and make some small adjustments -- for instance, during one of the recent challenge sessions, namida noticed that a water object left a 1-pixel gap with the adjacent steel. I want to look over all the levels and make sure that any remaining issues like that get fixed. Then I will be able to release the absolutely final version of Redux. Since Christmas is just a week away right now, that seems like a good day to aim for.

Thank you again to everyone who took part. It's been a long road to get this far, but we are very close to the end

[WillLem]

It makes me a bit sad that this is getting so little participation... the question of talismans is obviously messy and most people don't seem to mind

Don't feel too bad. I think Talismans are a very niche market, judging by various comments I've seen across several topics relating to them.

Also, those who enjoy Talismans are at best likely to be happy with whatever is presented to them, within reason, and at worst just regard them as too easy or a bit pointless.

Meanwhile, those who don't care either way are unlikely to get involved with discussions about them, and those who actively dislike Talismans will most likely want all of them removed, so their input isn't perhaps the most helpful anyway.

[Minim]

I also need to look over the levels one last time and make some small adjustments -- for instance, during one of the recent challenge sessions, namida noticed that a water object left a 1-pixel gap with the adjacent steel. I want to look over all the levels and make sure that any remaining issues like that get fixed. Then I will be able to release the absolutely final version of Redux. Since Christmas is just a week away right now, that seems like a good day to aim for.

Thank you again to everyone who took part. It's been a long road to get this far, but we are very close to the end

An absolute final version? OK, sure. I think it's about time we stopped updating soon after all these years of deliberation.

Yesterday I decided to modify most of the levels' Y Screen Start Co-ordinates (I notice that whilst playing on Windowed 3x mode for example, the Cascade platform doesn't appear at all whilst the top area cuts off unless you hover the top of the screen). It's surprising how so many levels I've needed to sort out, but I felt it was important personally.

This update also fixes the X Screen Start position for "Lemming Lament", one of those somewhat annoying levels that originally started all the way from the left, picturing a lava river rather than the terrain ahead. This might be an encouragement for players to play on a higher zoom in a Full screen, as you don't need to worry too much about missing entrances anymore! (I've left out the multiple entrance levels however)

Download this inside the 'levels' folder and extract from there. 8)

[WillLem]

Just putting this forward one last time before Redux gets finalised: 30 levels per rank would be a much tidier number.

There are repeat levels in the pack that arguably don't need both versions to be present, and I'm sure that there are other levels which could be seen as filler in the wider context of this pack...

At the moment, Redux comes across as some-parts "compilation pack" and some-parts "NeoLemmix versions of the levels". If it were to stick exclusively to the latter, and shed any notions of it being a "best of" compilation, then it could probably be neatened up to fewer levels per rank, or even fewer ranks in total, and would ultimately be a much better offering for it.

I would encourage you to take another look at which of these levels truly meet the NeoLemmix Standard. And it needn't even be that difficult; the original versions of these levels are always going to be available, after all.

[namida]

There are repeat levels in the pack that arguably don't need both versions to be present, and I'm sure that there are other levels which could be seen as filler in the wider context of this pack...

There are only a very, very small number of repeat levels in the pack. From memory - I think the only repeats were "It's Lemmingentry, Watson", "Postcard From Lemmingland", "Come On Over To My Place", "No Added Colors Or Lemmings" and "The Steel Mines Of Kessel"? And if you count it as a repeat, "Just A Minute (Part 2)". The only one of these I would advocate removing is Just A Minute (Part 2), and I probably wouldn't object too much to Come On Over To My Place being removed either (but would vote against removing it - I just wouldn't consider it a huge loss). And to be clear, repeat levels are not considered "un-NeoLemmix-y" - as long as the repeat, in and of itself, wouldn't be considered so, being a repeat doesn't change anything.

Redux should be thought of as somewhere between a remaster and a remake, in a sense, rather than directly as "compilation" or "NeoLemmix versions". And I don't personally feel that any of the remaining levels are hugely out of place as part of this.

[Proxima]

There are only a very, very small number of repeat levels in the pack. From memory - I think the only repeats were "It's Lemmingentry, Watson", "Postcard From Lemmingland", "Come On Over To My Place", "No Added Colors Or Lemmings" and "The Steel Mines Of Kessel"? And if you count it as a repeat, "Just A Minute (Part 2)".

From my memory, it's just those plus "Fall and no life" 1 and 2 (which, like "Just a Minute", has a small terrain difference).

"Just a Minute" and "Fall and no life" are pairs where both levels are puzzles; "It's lemmingentry, Watson", "Postcard from Lemmingland" and "No added colours or lemmings" are repeats of the skill tutorial levels. So the only cases where we kept a puzzle level and its 20-of-all repeat are "You live and Lem" / "The Steel Mines of Kessel" and "Let's be careful out there" / "Come on over to my place". And of those, "You live and Lem" has a special reason for inclusion: it's the level that would introduce a new player to triggered traps.

When we refer to Redux as a "best-of", that shouldn't be taken too literally. We don't believe these are the very best 160 levels from the original games. The pack aims to be a way for new players to experience the original levels, and some concessions have to be made to that, starting with the skill tutorial levels, and including some "filler" 20-of-all levels to help the new player get accustomed to the game.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the NeoLemmix Standard", to be honest. All the included levels meet NL standards: they are fair, with no hidden objects or misleading features; time limits are only included where necessary; and so on. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but maybe it would help if you tried to explain what you mean?

[WillLem]

I'm not sure what you mean by "the NeoLemmix Standard", to be honest... I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but maybe it would help if you tried to explain what you mean?

I guess I mean that they're levels which are puzzle-focused rather than execution-focused, plus the other things that you listed.

If you're happy that every single level needs to be in the pack, then great! I just wondered whether some levels could possibly be cut in order to tighten up the group numbers a bit. If not, then - of course, leave it as-is.

[Proxima]

Most of Gentle isn't so much puzzle- focused as it is focused on introducing a variety of level styles and obstacles so that new players can acquire the tools they need to solve puzzles later in the pack. As I've pointed out elsewhere, this is the key difference between the Fun levels, which do this well, albeit not perfectly, and the Tame levels, which do it badly.

In that spirit, here's a quick overview of what a new player would learn from each Gentle level:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1-7: Each skill in turn
8: Steel; choosing between skills when all are available
9: Having a wider area for lemmings to roam around in
10: Forging a downward path and avoiding splat falls
11: One-way wall
12: Quick actions required at the start; steel on the main path
13: Mesh and stars terrain; building over wider gaps
14: Choice between multiple exits
15: Very narrow gaps in terrain; trap is present but off main path
16: Special graphics
17: Trap on main path
18: Only one lemming; limited skills
19: Staircase terrain and high save requirement
20: Dealing with RR 99
21: Making a long bridge and avoiding splats from the bridge
22: Getting down a splat drop without terrain to dig through
23: Isolating a worker in a right-to-left level
24: Fire objects; only one lemming is allowed to die
25: Dealing with absence of a useful skill (bashers)
26: Switching between building and bashing
27: Isolating a worker without blockers
28: Splat trapdoor. (This level is the closest to being filler; splat trapdoors could wait until they are introduced with a real puzzle, in "POOR WEE CREATURES".)
29: Thinking ahead when placing skills
30: A specific trick using bombers to turn the crowd
31: Bombing through one-way walls or taking the long way around. (This would be the next cut if we had to cut two levels.)
32: Giving the worker as much time as possible, when the crowd cannot be completely contained.

In short, although it's easy to spot the two levels that are most filler-ish ("Catch more floaters" and "Doomsday"), I think every level in Gentle earns its place -- in contrast to the original Fun rank, which has some pure filler like "Take good care of my lemmings" and "Nightmare on Lem Street".

And, of course, going down to 30 per rank would require cutting eight puzzle levels from the later ranks. It's not impossible, but it would require more voting -- I would expect very low participation because the community regards Redux as finished and isn't much interested in tweaks any more -- and we would be overturning previous community consensus, which I'm really not comfortable with doing with a low-participation vote.

So, I won't take any action on this as things stand, but if more people chime in to agree with the idea of reducing the number of levels then we could consider it.

[WillLem]

In that spirit, here's a quick overview of what a new player would learn from each Gentle level:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1-7: Each skill in turn
8: Steel; choosing between skills when all are available
9: Having a wider area for lemmings to roam around in
10: Forging a downward path and avoiding splat falls
11: One-way wall
12: Quick actions required at the start; steel on the main path
13: Mesh and stars terrain; building over wider gaps
14: Choice between multiple exits
15: Very narrow gaps in terrain; trap is present but off main path
16: Special graphics
17: Trap on main path
18: Only one lemming; limited skills
19: Staircase terrain and high save requirement
20: Dealing with RR 99
21: Making a long bridge and avoiding splats from the bridge
22: Getting down a splat drop without terrain to dig through
23: Isolating a worker in a right-to-left level
24: Fire objects; only one lemming is allowed to die
25: Dealing with absence of a useful skill (bashers)
26: Switching between building and bashing
27: Isolating a worker without blockers
28: Splat trapdoor. (This level is the closest to being filler; splat trapdoors could wait until they are introduced with a real puzzle, in "POOR WEE CREATURES".)
29: Thinking ahead when placing skills
30: A specific trick using bombers to turn the crowd
31: Bombing through one-way walls or taking the long way around. (This would be the next cut if we had to cut two levels.)
32: Giving the worker as much time as possible, when the crowd cannot be completely contained.

Thanks for taking the time to create this list, it's interesting to see why each level was specifically chosen.

[chrisleec728]

Hey, how are the release plans coming along? Everything okay?

[Minim]

Well, we've just had the November update which included the final selection of levels. I think the talisman discussion is pretty much finalised, although the download on this post could clash with what talismans Proxima wants to include let alone fix any remaining bugs. I'm not sure if he's seen that post or not.

Other than that, everything seems fine. Thanks for asking.

[chrisleec728]

Ok cool. I just thought he said it would be released around Christmas so I was mildly concerned.

[Minim]

Just saw these new posts today.

Well, my "Christmas Period" is over. So I had included the remaining talismans into the game, introduced in the attachment below. BTW this is my first experience of adding Talismans to levels, so well done me. Here are my first two thoughts, both being rather complex.

As the talismans in Redux are unnamed, it's very hard to check whether the talisman is actually included or not once you put it in into the level. Maybe the editor could produce an automated title like "Talisman 1" or for a more specific requirement: "Save Requirement: 30" or something similar to these.

For "save max" talismans, there is currently no specified limit on Lemmings saved. (I think it goes up to 200) The limit should match the total number of lemmings available (And to expand on this, Normal & Neutral Lemmings) At the moment I had to find the "Globals" tab to check.

Still, I hope all the talismans are added in correctly for the final total of 8/20/16. If not, I've collaborated several different posts into a little document hidden in spoiler tags. It seems to bring the total number to 46 however with a split of 9/20/17. That means one gold and one bronze would have to go for a round number. I can't remember which ones needed deleting though, unless I made a mistake somewhere...

Document (click to show/hide)

Things to do on Redux before the end...

I haven't had enough feedback to decide for certain which talismans to include and which not, even when taking my own feelings into account as well. One possibility would be to use nice, round numbers as a decider -- and I absolutely would do that if there were just one talisman suggestion I was still unsure about -- but it doesn't feel right to do that when there are three or four.

So, another poll, but a very simple one. Eight of the suggested new talismans are definitely accepted (see the post above), putting the numbers at 8/20/14. We will go with one of the following three options, and I've put up a poll to decide between them. I am not expecting a large turnout, so I may well call it early if one option is ahead after the first few votes.

Feel free to vote on any basis, whether you like one set of numbers better than the other, or if there's a particular talisman in one of the options that you especially like or dislike.



I also need to look over the levels one last time and make some small adjustments -- for instance, during one of the recent challenge sessions, namida noticed that a water object left a 1-pixel gap with the adjacent steel. I want to look over all the levels and make sure that any remaining issues like that get fixed. Then I will be able to release the absolutely final version of Redux. Since Christmas is just a week away right now, that seems like a good day to aim for.

Gentle 32: Going Their Separate Ways (0 climbers) - Almost certainly bronze.
Zany 9: No justice for the hero (Save 100%) - Namida suggests silver, which sounds about right.
Zany 28: Worra load of old blocks! (0 Diggers) - Both commenters suggested gold, and it is indeed a tricky challenge, so I'm okay with that.
Zany 31: ROCKY ROAD (2 builders) - Definitely gold. It's harder than the existing "save 100%" talisman, which is already gold.
Manic 32: Temple of Love (Save 29/30) - Minim suggests gold, namida silver. Personally I think it could be gold.
Manic 6: Chill Out! (0 climbers) - Silver seems right for this.
Manic 12: Steel Block Party (0 builders) - Both commenters suggested gold, and it is indeed a tricky challenge, so I'm okay with that.
Manic 25: Acrophobia (0 diggers) - Both commenters suggested gold, and it is indeed a tricky challenge, so I'm okay with that.
Lunatic 10: Be more than just a number (Save 100%) - Silver seems right for this.
Lunatic 11: Fix the road, quick (Save 100% with 10 builders) - Silver seems right for this.

Option A: Include talismans for Manic 6: Chill out! as silver and Zany 28: Worra load of old blocks as gold for totals of 8/20/16.

Also included is a fix with the water for "Have a nice day", adding three long water objects to reduce the file's size but more importantly, the noticeable gap between the water and the wall is sealed properly. The update for Lunatic 11 "Fix the road, quick" also includes a better X Screen Start position for high res players.

[Proxima]

The update for Lunatic 11 "Fix the road, quick" also includes a better X Screen Start position for high res players.

It's not directly to do with high-res. With the screen start set to X=160 as it was, the initial view will only stretch to the left edge if your window is at least (320 x zoom level) wide.

I don't know what your zoom level and window size is, but not all high-res users will have this issue, whereas some low-res users will.

[Minim]

Mine is currently 3x zoom on windowed mode.

Also, I don't really have any issues, the changes were to find some kind of middle ground no matter if people use high or low res. I don't understand why some low-res users could potentially see problems with it?

[Proxima]

Users have different screen sizes. Users of windowed mode can give the window any size they want.

The screen start positions are configured to be the best possible if the window size (adjusted for zoom level) is 320 x 200, but the user's actual window size could be literally anything. And if you are using 3x zoom and you switch to high-res without changing your window size, then of course it's going to look wonky -- 3 is odd, so NL will be forced to jump to a zoom size that isn't ideal for your chosen window size. We have to expect that users who want to use high-res mode will choose a window size that works for that.

[Proxima]

Okay, I've finally done this I've gone through the pack to add the new talismans and make final adjustments. If I didn't miss anything that needs doing, this could be the final update to this pack. (The new pack is attached to the opening post of the topic.)

Changelog (click to show/hide)

* Special graphics levels -- These now have the correct trapdoors and exits, with colouring specific to each level.
* I've set trapdoors and exits to no-overwrite where I spotted ones that weren't (mainly in levels from PSP and Budget Amiga). I think other levels already have these set correctly, but I haven't checked every single one.

Gentle

"Darkness of the royal family" -- Adjusted rope trap's position to account for revised trigger area.
"Where do you see Lemmings?" -- Adjusted fire pit positions for consistency / aesthetics.
"Going Their Separate Ways" -- Replaced old version (which was remade by hand) with a level file directly ripped from Macintosh Lemmings.

Quirky

"Go for it" -- Adjusted fire pit.
"Exodus" -- Adjusted rope traps.
"No choice but to follow them" -- Adjusted zapper traps.

Zany

"Compression Method 1" -- Save requirement is 20/40.
"Lemming Lament" -- Fixed screen start position.
"Have a nice day" -- Fixed 1-pixel gap between water and steel.

Manic

"Upside-down World" -- Changed one terrain piece to one-way compatible so the one-way area covers the expected area.
"The gate trap Lemmings." -- Adjusted size of one-way areas to match terrain.
"Electric circuit" -- Adjusted zapper traps.
"POOR WEE CREATURES" -- Adjusted zapper trap.
"Where Lemmings Dare" -- Fixed screen start position.

Lunatic

"Private room available" -- Adjusted zapper trap.
"The Great Lemming Caper" -- Adjusted rope trap.
"Everyone's a hard nut" -- Adjusted zapper traps.

[chrisleec728]

Awesome. Sorry if I made anyone feel pressured by my last post (especially Proxima), by the way; there was really no rush.

Anyway, my biggest problem now is that some of the talisman descriptions on my version are cut off due to being overly long. Do I have to update NeoLemmix to fix this?

[Proxima]

Yes, I strongly recommend you update to 12.10 as it has so many quality-of-life and aesthetic improvements!

In 12.10, talisman requirements are no longer written on the preview screen. Instead, the preview screen has talisman icons that can be clicked to display the requirements in a pop-up window. Also, it automatically detects certain special cases and will, for example, display "Save 20/20 using only builders" rather than "...using 0 climbers, 0 floaters, 0 bombers...."

[chrisleec728]

Thanks, looks awesome! I think I noticed a problem though: when I downloaded the latest update I think it still downloaded an earlier version of Redux with it. After some experimentation I noticed that when I downloaded Redux manually it listed 44 talismans, but when I did it the automatic way it only listed 36. If I'm reading through the thread correctly I believe 44 is what you ended up with, correct?

[Proxima]

Yes, it sounds like the automatic download hasn't been updated with the latest version yet.

[EDIT: Now it has! ]

[Proxima]

Well, I had hoped that the January 19 update would be the final version of Lemmings Redux, but it was not to be.

Firstly, I've discovered that the level "Quest for Kieran" contained serious terrain errors. I've attached a fixed version to this post, and will be including it in the next update. Since another update is required, I felt I should take another look round to see if there is anything else remaining that should be fixed or improved. [EDIT: Removed attachment; the fixed level is now in the main Redux zip.]

As WillLem and I have been doing the "Don't turn around" challenge, we've noticed that Redux is very inconsistent in terms of when trapdoors have been set to left-facing. I would like to make these consistent, and my suggestion is doing this by a set of rules:

* If the exit is to the right of the trapdoor, it should remain right-facing, except maybe in special cases like "And then there were four" where the lemmings are forced to start by going away from the exit.
* If the exit is to the left of the trapdoor and it requires the use of skills to turn around the lemmings, it should remain right-facing. Obvious examples: Tailor-made for blockers; Turn around, young lemmings; Upside-down world.
* If the exit is to the left of the trapdoor and it doesn't require any skills to turn around the lemmings, there may still be some special cases where it's better for the trapdoor to be right-facing (e.g. The Boiler Room, where the right-facing trapdoor affords more space for constructing a holding area), but in general, these should become left-facing.

A couple of examples of levels where Redux currently has a right-facing trapdoor and I feel it should become left-facing: Snuggle up to a lemming; Haunted botanical garden (right trapdoor); Don't leave any lemmings.

Alternatively, we could set all trapdoors (back) to right-facing. Whichever we do, I'd like to do it consistently throughout the pack.

What are other people's feelings on this?

[namida]

Agree with changing in general, though I do disagree with one particular example you've given - "Don't leave any lemmings", I think it should remain right-facing on this one. The "natural" route would be to go right first, then come back to the left and go under.

[Dullstar]

For the purposes of this post, I when I say flipped/unflipped, it's relative to the original versions of the levels, i.e. where all entrances are right facing.

I'd simplify the rule down to this:

If lemmings entering the level turn around on their own such that a flipped entrance just gets them where they'd end up going faster, they should be flipped (generally this will flip towards the exit, but this is one rule that also fits cases like "And then there were four" without making such levels a special exception).

If an action is required to turn the lemmings around, it should be considered part of the puzzle and thus should remain unflipped.

For levels that would become flipped under the previous rules, but may benefit from remaining unflipped (e.g. the Boiler Room example given by Proxima): Make a list of such levels, then use that to make decisions about how it should be handled. Ideally we'd take the same action on all of these levels, but at the very least we should break it down into subcategories of different cases and then handle each subcategory the same, instead of making decisions about individual levels one-by-one.

[Minim]

Agree with changing in general, though I do disagree with one particular example you've given - "Don't leave any lemmings", I think it should remain right-facing on this one. The "natural" route would be to go right first, then come back to the left and go under.

Still firmly in agreement with this one. Here was what I wrote a while ago whilst we were sorting out what levels should be included.

..."Don't leave any Lemmings" is supposed to be a right-entrance level despite the right-left layout. It makes more sense to bomb the right side of the starting platform to give the lemmings a safer drop.

[Minim]

Hi. I have a problem with the update regarding the graphic sets for special levels.

For all the original special levels, all the objects are missing. I tried the updater but that hasn't worked either. Therefore I can't play "A Beast of a Level", "Menacing", "What an Awesome level" and "A BeastII of a level" The Pieces affected are:
* window_beastii
* exit_beastii
* window_beast
* exit_beast
* window_menacing
* exit_menacing
* window_awesome
* exit_awesome

I'm currently in the middle of a challenge until I encountered this problem. Please either add these objects in, or revert back to the original so I can resume my challenge. Thanks.

[Proxima]

The objects are in the "special" style, which comes with NL.

[EDIT: It turns out these objects were not included in the "special" style by default and had gotten into my local copy of the style somehow. However, I've checked with namida and they are included with the "special" style from 12.11 onwards, so there's no problem any more with Redux using them.]

[Minim]

Thanks! The levels are working again.

[Proxima]

I have updated the Redux zip in the opening post:

* Gentle 27 "Quest for Kieran" fixes some terrain errors that had gone unnoticed for a long time.
* The zip no longer includes the "smstitle" music for Lunatic 16 "SEGA Four", since this is now included by default in the NL installation.

I need to make a final decision about the flipped hatches (mentioned a few posts up). I'll get onto this as quickly as I can; I am rather busy with another NeoLemmix project at the moment, which I'm hoping to get ready in time for the anniversary on 14 February.

[Proxima]

I'd like to get moving on the flipped hatches decisions, since this is almost the very last thing left to decide. Dullstar's rule of thumb is a good starting-point, so I had a look through the pack to see which levels fall under it. Unfortunately it looks like there are more than I thought! Some of these are very, very clear cases where some other consideration means we should keep the hatches right-facing, but as usual, I want to make decisions on the basis of consensus and not just my own feeling, so they are on my list anyway.

The full list... (click to show/hide)

G8 "Snuggle up to a lemming" -- Unproblematic to flip left.
G15 "Darkness of the royal family" -- Unproblematic to flip left.
G21 "Lemmings in the attic" -- The player may want to start the lemmings walking either left or right, and the exit is to the right, so keep this one unflipped.
G27 "Quest for Kieran" -- Currently flipped. Unflipping it would allow delaying the crowd by mining on the starting platform instead of the large mound, which was possible on the original, so maybe flip back for that reason?
G29 "Konnichiwa Lemming-san" -- Unproblematic to flip left.
G31 "Doomsday" -- Exit is to the right; the "H" does turn the lemmings left, but the player may wish to bash right for a faster solution, so keep unflipped.

Q1 "PoP YoR ToP" (right two trapdoors) -- Unproblematic?
Q6 "Just a Quicky" -- Feels weird to flip when the trapdoor is so close to the terrain just to its left. What does anyone else think?
Q8 "A Spot of Bother" -- Mentioning this just in case anyone wonders about it. The lemmings actually land on the steel, so flipping the hatch would change the level in a way unacceptable by Dullstar's rule.
Q9 "Exodus!" -- The solution involves climbing out to the left, but flipping the trapdoor would be a hint towards the solution that wasn't present on the original level, so leave?
Q11 "DON'T PANIC" -- Some solutions involve the lemmings heading left, but some involve bashing or bombing to the right at the start, so leave unflipped.
Q12 "Over the wall" -- Unproblematic. Even though the exit is right of the trapdoor, the steel forces you to go left first.
Q13 "Haunted botanical garden" (right trapdoor) -- Unproblematic.
Q17 "Mr Lemmy Lives Next Door" -- same as Q9, flipping the trapdoor would be a hint, so leave.
Q19 "Tunnel vision" (right trapdoor) -- Unproblematic.
Q21 "The Long Way Around" -- Seems unproblematic, but maybe some players would want to bash towards the steel to change separation of the lemmings?
Q22 "The Far Side" -- Unproblematic.
Q23 "Emmings! (No L)" (maybe both trapdoors) -- Currently has the lower trapdoor unflipped, possibly because it's close to the left terrain as in Q6.
Q24 "Lunch time" -- Here, even though turning the lemmings around requires a skill (blocker), this skill must be used here regardless of whether the trapdoor is flipped or not, so flip it even though it doesn't strictly follow Dullstar's rule?
Q32 "And then there were four" (left trapdoors) -- Unproblematic.

Z4 "LEMTRIS" -- Unproblematic.
Z6 "Compression Method 1" (all trapdoors) -- Leave unflipped because flipping would be a hint?
Z8 "Lemmy in the cold, cold ground" (right trapdoor) -- Leave unflipped because the player may want to bash/mine rightwards.
Z13 "Don't leave any Lemmings" -- Already discussed. Consensus seems to be to leave because the player may want to bomb down to the lower-right compartment.
Z15 "With a little help from my Lem" (top trapdoor) -- Some solutions have the top lemming act leftwards first. Leave this unflipped because not all solutions do that / it may be a hint.
Z20 "Dolly Dimple" (both trapdoors) -- Seems unproblematic to flip both. The current level has just the right trapdoor flipped, which feels weird.

M1 "Let's get together" (right trapdoor) -- Unproblematic.
M5 "Synchronised Lemming" (left trapdoors) -- Unproblematic.
M18 "The gate trap Lemmings." (right trapdoor) -- Unproblematic.
M24 "The race against cliches" -- A weird case as the intended solution involves lemmings going both ways. Exit is on the far left. I'm not sure how I feel about this one.
M26 "Triple Trouble" (right trapdoor) -- Unproblematic.

L2 "The Boiler Room" -- Already discussed; leave unflipped to enable builder-wall solutions.
L7 "Down, along, up, in that order" -- Unproblematic.
L8 "Lemming about town" -- Exit is on the right but you need to climb left. Leave?
L10 "Be more than just a number" -- Seems unproblematic; steel makes it obvious you need to go left first.
L12 "Water processing plant" -- Leave as flipping the trapdoor would drastically change the mini-puzzle of keeping the crowd safe.
L16 "SEGA Four" -- Unproblematic.
L17 "Creature Discomforts" (right trapdoor) -- Some solutions involve the right-side lemmings climbing the far right wall. Leave for that reason?
L20 "No hurry, relax." -- Flipping the trapdoor would change the relative efficiency of the left and right side solutions, one of which is intentionally a red herring that doesn't quite make it. I say leave this one.
L22 "Hello John! Got a New Lemming?" (right trapdoor) -- Flipping the right trapdoor would hint that a climber from this trapdoor should be sent left (I think it's actually possible to use a climber from either trapdoor?). Leave, especially as the right trapdoor's exit is to the right.
L27 "Let's go camping" -- Just kidding.

I would be really grateful if anyone would take the time to go through the above list and give second opinions, even on the ones I have marked "unproblematic" -- I am not infallible!

[Minim]

OK, submitted my responses. All other levels I'm in agreement with, but Manic 18 is the only unproblematic one that I disagree with, as I will explain below.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

G27: Flip to the right.
Q1: I'm not too bothered about this one, so leave as is.
Q6: Leave this one right facing. Like Q8 The lemming actually lands on the top part of the pipe first. Making this one left-facing would ignore the required holding area.
Q21: Leave unflipped. Lems can bomb twice into the steel to create a holding area.
Q22: Currently left facing, but I think because of the level's name "The Far Side" this was intended to be right facing. I know it doesn't technically add anything to the solution, but making it right facing brings the humiliation of the lemmings being so close to the exit if it weren't for that steel wall.
Q23: Leave both trapdoors unflipped.
Q24: Keep this one left facing. There's no challenge to turning round the lemmings here.
Q9, Z6, L8 and L17: Leave unflipped.
Z20: Flip both to the left.
M18: Disagree with this one (i.e. keep to the right). My fastest time solution involves the right side building upwards to the crowded pit where the left lemmings share. While executing is pretty much the same difficulty, it's quicker and easier to manage if the right entrance is facing right.
M24: I looked up the lemmings encyclopedia to find the actual intended solution, and at least it works left facing. Also, as the lems are facing closer to the wall, the journey between the two starting points is shorter, so players can choose to either climb this wall or go to the other one; so I'd leave as it is. The level is still a bit faulty in its current state, but has otherwise been unchanged apart from the left-facing entrance.

[namida]

Here's my feedback on the other. Assume any I don't mention here are either "I agree with you" or "No preference", let me know if there's any you'd like to know which of these it was. Note that the ones I comment on might not be "I disagree" but just "I have something to add to the reasoning".

G27 "Quest for Kieran" -- Currently flipped. Unflipping it would allow delaying the crowd by mining on the starting platform instead of the large mound, which was possible on the original, so maybe flip back for that reason?

This is a pretty trivial difference from doing it on the mound, and I think overall the level feels nicer with them going left.

Q6 "Just a Quicky" -- Feels weird to flip when the trapdoor is so close to the terrain just to its left. What does anyone else think?

Do not flip. If flipped, they will not be contained, as they land just on the barrier of the holding area. (Much like what you mention for Q8.)

Q17 "Mr Lemmy Lives Next Door" -- same as Q9, flipping the trapdoor would be a hint, so leave.

Not to mention that there are solutions that send a climber to the right first.

Z6 "Compression Method 1" (all trapdoors) -- Leave unflipped because flipping would be a hint?

Disagree with reasoning, but ultimately agree with decision. It is obvious you have to go left here - there is a fatal fall, off steel (can't reduce the fall) with no floaters or builders (can't survive / avoid it), to the right. However, going right gives options relating to using the first trapdoor to free the second (or to free all the others in some cases), and from there I think for this level it would look weird to not have all four facing the same way.

Z8 "Lemmy in the cold, cold ground" (right trapdoor) -- Leave unflipped because the player may want to bash/mine rightwards.

Also because unflipped has them actually going towards the exit.

M24 "The race against cliches" -- A weird case as the intended solution involves lemmings going both ways. Exit is on the far left. I'm not sure how I feel about this one.

The exit is to the left, and most lemmings go left (though not necesserially right away). I get the feeling that, if DOS mechanics were "always spawn facing left" instead, we'd think that changing it to right-facing is a hint on this one. I think all things considered, left remains the right direction to spawn here, though I'll definitely agree that it's a closer call than most.

L8 "Lemming about town" -- Exit is on the right but you need to climb left. Leave?

Agree, leave unflipped.

L16 "SEGA Four" -- Unproblematic.

I have a slight feeling that this one should remain unflipped, but can't quite put my finger on why.

L17 "Creature Discomforts" (right trapdoor) -- Some solutions involve the right-side lemmings climbing the far right wall. Leave for that reason?

As far as I can tell, you'd usually need to block near the entrance anyway, as you don't send all of them up right away? If so, I see no problem with flipping it.

L22 "Hello John! Got a New Lemming?" (right trapdoor) -- Flipping the right trapdoor would hint that a climber from this trapdoor should be sent left (I think it's actually possible to use a climber from either trapdoor?). Leave, especially as the right trapdoor's exit is to the right.

While either way around makes sense, I kind of feel that the two entrances on this level should have opposite directions to each other. That is - either both go towards the direction they send a climber, or both go towards their exit.

[Proxima]

Thank you both for the quick feedback. (WillLem also gave feedback via discord.) It seems we're in agreement about most levels, so I'm happy to sign off on those, and that leaves a much shorter list still under consideration for anyone else who wants to chime in. If no-one else does, I'll come back to this and make final decisions within a week or so.

Resolved (click to show/hide)

G8 "Snuggle up to a Lemming" -- flip left.
G15 "Darkness of the royal family" -- flip left.
G21 "Lemmings in the attic" -- leave right.
G29 "Konnichiwa Lemming-san" -- flip left.
G31 "Doomsday" -- leave right.

Q6 "Just a Quicky" -- leave right.
Q8 "A Spot of Bother" -- leave right.
Q9 "Exodus!" -- leave right.
Q11 "DON'T PANIC" -- leave right.
Q12 "Over the wall" -- flip left.
Q13 "Haunted botanical garden" -- flip left.
Q17 "Mr Lemmy Lives Next Door" -- leave right.
Q19 "Tunnel vision" -- flip left.
Q24 "Lunch time" -- flip left.
Q32 "And then there were four" -- flip left.

Z4 "LEMTRIS" -- flip left.
Z6 "Compression Method 1" -- keep right.
Z8 "Lemmy in the cold, cold ground" -- keep right.
Z13 "Don't leave any Lemmings" -- keep right.
Z15 "With a little help from my Lem" -- keep right.
Z20 "Dolly Dimple" -- flip left.

M1 "Let's get together" -- flip left.
M5 "Synchronised Lemming" -- flip left.
M26 "Triple Trouble" -- flip left.

L2 "The Boiler Room" -- leave right.
L7 "Down, along, up, in that order" -- flip left.
L8 "Lemming about town" -- leave right.
L10 "Be more than just a number" -- flip left.
L12 "Water processing plant" -- leave right.
L20 "No hurry, relax." -- leave right.

Still under consideration (click to show/hide)

G27 "Quest for Kieran"
Q1 "PoP YoR ToP" [inclined to flip, since Minim gave "not too bothered" as a reason for not flipping ]
Q21 "The Long Way Around"
Q22 "The Far Side" [inclined to flip, since we were unanimous about "Be more than just a number", which has a very similar set-up]
Q23 "Emmings! (No L)"
M18 "The gate trap Lemmings."
M24 "The race against cliches"
L16 "SEGA Four"
L17 "Creature Discomforts"
L22 "Hello John! Got a New Lemming?"

Namida, could you say something more about the "still under consideration" ones you didn't mention? These are Q1, Q21, Q22, Q23 and M18.

[namida]

Q1 "PoP YoR ToP"

I'd lean very slightly towards flip. EDIT: Actually, after further thought, yeah, I would definitely say flip.

Q21 "The Long Way Around"

Flipping feels right to me here, but this is another close call, and I would be okay with either outcome.

Q22 "The Far Side"

Flip.

Q23 "Emmings! (No L)"

It feels right to leave as-is, but this is another one where I don't have any particularly strong feelings either way.

M18 "The gate trap Lemmings."

Flip the right entrance.

[WillLem]

Flipping heck!

[Proxima]

Q23 "Emmings! (No L)"

It feels right to leave as-is, but this is another one where I don't have any particularly strong feelings either way.

That's interesting, because currently the top trapdoor is flipped but the bottom one is not, and that must have been your decision at some point?

[namida]

Q23 "Emmings! (No L)"

It feels right to leave as-is, but this is another one where I don't have any particularly strong feelings either way.

That's interesting, because currently the top trapdoor is flipped but the bottom one is not, and that must have been your decision at some point?

"As-is" as in how it currently is, not as in how Amiga was.

My guess is that I used "towards the exit" for the top, while thinking "going towards the wall they're closer to" doesn't make sense for the lower one, but it has to be factored in that I wasn't always very consistent back when I did these conversions.

[Proxima]

While we're waiting to see if anyone else wants to chime in about the trapdoors, there are a couple of other small changes I have been considering, and would like a second opinion on:

* Quest for Kieran: I recently reverted the terrain to its original layout, since it seemed clear that it must have been changed by accident at some point. However, after doing this I noticed that on Amiga and DOS, since builders are asymmetrical and not as good at stretching to the left, it is not possible to cross the gap with 3 builders alone without losing any lemmings, whereas on NL it is. Should this be considered a backroute and fixed (maybe by reducing the number of builders to 2)?

* Everyone's a hard nut: Since this is a Genesis level, it was designed to have a solid ceiling. Should we add terrain in the top-right corner to stop a climber dying if he hits the ceiling there? The level has enough surplus skills that the deadly ceiling seems not to close off any solutions that otherwise work, but it is an unintended gameplay difference. I am pretty sure this is the only level where ceiling behaviour needs to be addressed and hasn't been, but feel free to point out if there are any others. (We have addressed it on "No hurry, relax" and "Lemmings' Ark".)

* You need bashers this time: As well as reducing lemming counts, we reduced the skillsets on many early levels, for instance trimming the Tame levels from 20 of each to 10 of each. This was mostly done because 20 of each, with the reduced lemming counts, would produce unusable bombers on levels that didn't originally have them, but it does suggest that we felt skillset economy made the levels feel more NL-like. "You need bashers", however, still has an excessive supply of 50 bashers. Should we reduce this to 20?

[namida]

* Quest for Kieran: [...] Should this be considered a backroute and fixed (maybe by reducing the number of builders to 2)?

I'm neutral on the fixing in and of itself, but I don't like the proposed method. Move the exit platform a few px to the left instead. However, I'll note that we've been okay with other cases where this makes a difference, in particular "Lemmings In A Situation" where the better left-building allows several challenge solutions that are not possible on DOS. I personally would just leave this.

* Everyone's a hard nut: Since this is a Genesis level, it was designed to have a solid ceiling. Should we add terrain in the top-right corner to stop a climber dying if he hits the ceiling there?

Neutral on this.

* You need bashers this time: As well as reducing lemming counts, we reduced the skillsets on many early levels, for instance trimming the Tame levels from 20 of each to 10 of each. This was mostly done because 20 of each, with the reduced lemming counts, would produce unusable bombers on levels that didn't originally have them, but it does suggest that we felt skillset economy made the levels feel more NL-like. "You need bashers", however, still has an excessive supply of 50 bashers. Should we reduce this to 20?

I'd support this, but I wouldn't consider it a very big deal if it didn't happen.

[WillLem]

* Quest for Kieran: ...I noticed that on Amiga and DOS ... it is not possible to cross the gap with 3 builders alone without losing any lemmings, whereas on NL it is. Should this be considered a backroute and fixed (maybe by reducing the number of builders to 2)?

I'd say yes, but I concur with namida that moving the exit platform is a better way to fix it. That way, it plays exactly like the original (which seems to be the goal with this particular level).

* Everyone's a hard nut: Since this is a Genesis level, it was designed to have a solid ceiling. Should we add terrain in the top-right corner to stop a climber dying if he hits the ceiling there?

Yes.

* You need bashers this time: ...still has an excessive supply of 50 bashers. Should we reduce this to 20?

30 is a nicer number if you're going to reduce; this is a fun one to spam Bashers through the mesh, let's not deprive players of that pleasure

[Proxima]

Thank you both for the feedback. I feel pretty close to being able to make final decisions on these questions and on the trapdoor flipping, but again, as so few people are contributing at this stage, I feel obliged to leave this discussion open a little longer in case anyone else wants to chime in.

So, I will say that on 1 March I will make final decisions on these questions, no matter what, and then put together a final update to the pack. This one really should be the absolute final version of Redux -- although if a serious error comes to light like the recently fixed terrain error in "Quest for Kieran", I will still update the pack to fix things like that. I will also, of course, continue to maintain the pack as necessary, if any changes are needed because of updates to the NL engine itself.

And, as I've said elsewhere, once Redux is really finished, my next project will be finishing the update to the NL conversions of the original games, so that those are in the same reasonably stable status.

[Proxima]

Okay. As promised, final decisions on the outstanding matters. I'll post a pack update with these changes later today, and this should be the very final version of Lemmings Redux -- however, I am still leaving open the possibility that I may make further changes if something else comes up that really needs fixing, or if later versions of NL require updating the pack for any reason.

In making these final decisions, as always I have considered all feedback, but since there are so few people contributing at this stage I have given a bit more weight than usual to my own gut feelings (and especially the desire for consistency).

Trapdoor direction decisions (click to show/hide)

Those already marked resolved are unchanged.

"Quest for Kieran": Flip left, for the reasons namida gave above.
"PoP YoR ToP": Flip left.
"The Long Way Around": Flip left. As well as consistency with other levels where the exit is to the right but steel enforces going left first (The Far Side, Be more than just a number), there is the consideration that being able to bomb into the terrain at the start is a consequence of NL having untimed bombers, and wasn't intended to be possible.
"The Far Side": As above, flip for consistency.
"Emmings! (No L"): I will leave this as-is (top trapdoor flipped, bottom trapdoor not). If the top trapdoor were the only one, we would certainly flip it, so the presence of another trapdoor shouldn't change that decision. The lower group typically build to the left from a point to the right of the trapdoor, so leaving this trapdoor unflipped lets them reach that point sooner.
"The gate trap lemmings": Flip left. The solution of saving the right crowd by sending them over the top is still possible and not very different.
"The race against cliches": Flip left. Again namida makes a good point about this level.
"SEGA Four": Flip left. There is still plenty of room to get down the first drop by mining from directly under the trapdoor.
"Creature Discomforts": Flip left. With two trapdoors on opposite sides and an exit in the middle, it feels especially right to have both trapdoors face the exit; and as namida points out, this doesn't really affect the climb-bomb solution as you would need a blocker anyway.
"Hello John! Got a New Lemming?": It does make sense that the trapdoors face opposite ways here, so I will flip the top trapdoor.

In short, my decision for all the "still under consideration" levels is to flip them

Other decisions (click to show/hide)

"Quest for Kieran": I will leave the terrain as-is. One reason is that I am working on the official NL conversions of the original levels, and it would be weird and confusing for there to be two versions of this level with such a small terrain difference. We have changed some levels in Redux for de-backrouting purposes, notably added steel on "Let's go to the moon", "If at first you don't succeed" and "Everyone's a hard nut", and reduced or changed skillsets on "Tension Sheet, Good Idea", "The Great Lemming Caper", "Let's go camping" and "Fall and no life (Part Two)" -- but those are differences that leap to the eye at once.

There is actually a second solution that would be prevented by moving the exit terrain 2px away: mining at the top of the long slope, having everyone turn around in the miner tunnel before he breaks through, and then building to the exit. This is impossible on the original level because with the original lemming count (50), it's impossible for everyone to turn around before the miner breaks through. But it's an interesting solution and I like that it's possible in Redux -- and I especially don't want it to fail by a single pixel as that is always frustrating.

"Everyone's a hard nut": I will add a bit of ceiling terrain. I have the feeling that if I didn't do this, it would nag at me and I would want to come back and change it later anyway

"You need bashers this time": I will reduce the bashers to 20. This might have a slight effect on the fastest time, since if you set the RR to 99 at the beginning and spam bashers all the way, it takes 21 -- but since the level doesn't require 100%, it's fine to let one lemming turn around, and the fastest time will only be slightly slower. In any case, preserving the fastest times is really not important at all.

[WillLem]

"You need bashers this time": I will reduce the bashers to 20. This might have a slight effect on the fastest time, since if you set the RR to 99 at the beginning and spam bashers all the way, it takes 21 -- but since the level doesn't require 100%, it's fine to let one lemming turn around, and the fastest time will only be slightly slower. In any case, preserving the fastest times is really not important at all.

I think preserving existing time records is important, since time was spent creating them, and this is an arbitrary (and frankly unnecessary) change to the level which makes it impossible to recreate that record.

I stand by my suggestion to make it 30 rather than 20 if the skillset is to be reduced. Or, maybe 25 as a compromise which also preserves the aforementioned time record.

[Proxima]

Let me rephrase: It's by far the least important concern. Anyone making time (or other challenge) records for a pack still in progress risks having their records obsoleted, and they knowingly take that risk. Indeed, one of the main reasons for making the current update is so that I'm happy with all the little decisions that have to be made throughout the pack, so that we can have a version declared final and make records without risk.

Time records will have to be redone anyway for all the levels that have changed, so one more really isn't a big deal, especially such a simple level as "You need bashers". For that matter, we don't even know yet that the current record will be broken, it's just a guess!

Of course it's "arbitrary and unnecessary". So is every single decision we've made since the beginning. Nothing forced us to make a compilation pack; we could have stuck with the original Lemmings pack, unchanged, destructible moss and all. We decided to make changes to improve the playing experience and improve the pack as a whole, and making the levels (from a huge variety of sources) feel a bit more consistent with each other is an important part of that.

[Proxima]

Anyway, the OP has now been updated with a new zip, and as stated, this really should be the final version! I am very happy to have brought the project to a successful conclusion at last.

[chrisleec728]

Okay, finished and updated (again). It turns out I had already figured out at least part of the "Chill out!" talisman, but had to make just a few tweaks. I now have 7 talismans remaining, most of which are new except for the last:

Be more than just a number (the only silver one missing)
Worra load of old blocks
ROCKY ROAD (the only one whose talisman was changed from one to another)
Steel Block Party (I'm especially curious about this one since a) namida praised it so highly and b) similarly to "Chill out" I suspect I may already have part of the solution figured out)
Acrophobia
Temple of Love
I am A.T. (because of course) (I basically already know the solution having seen it in action but it's extremely hard to replicate)

[HansBertram]

Hello, does anyone have a solution replay of Manic 12 (including the talisman)?
I'm already going mad by this level ...

[HansBertram]

I have read several comments about that level and I know that you have to use some technical tricks in order to get the talisman, but I still can't see it.
The replays by Proxima were very helpful for me, but I couldn't find any solution of Manic 12. Can somebody help me, please?

[WillLem]

I couldn't find any solution of Manic 12. Can somebody help me, please?

Here are my replays. The initial solution is a bit of a hack, but it gets the level solved. If you'd rather have a hint than a solution replay:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Think about what can be used other than Blockers to stop the lems turning around. You need to create something 7 pixels high so they can't step over it.

As for the talisman, the fewest builders I can solve this with is 1. Maybe these "1 Builder" solutions might help to point towards what the talisman solution actually is. It's probably something super fiddly and awkward, like (Method 2).

Hope this helps

[Proxima]

I have read several comments about that level and I know that you have to use some technical tricks in order to get the talisman, but I still can't see it.
The replays by Proxima were very helpful for me, but I couldn't find any solution of Manic 12. Can somebody help me, please?

Hints for the talisman solution:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The tricks you need should be familiar if you've done most of the other levels and talismans. Lemmings can ascend a step of 6 pixels, but not 7. Blockers can be released by removing the ground under them.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Since you only have one basher, the blocker must be removed with a digger. How can this digger be stopped? Since you don't have builders, what other skills do you have?

Replay attached in case you decide it's time to throw in the towel.

[HansBertram]

Ah, thank you!
The solution is actually much easier and less fiddly than I expected - very elegant!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I just should have thought more deeply about the possibilities of digging a big whole. I thought that it would be impossible to save the pack from being trapped when using a digger to block the return path to the left.

Now I like this level very much.

[Simon]

Attached is a solution to Redux's version of Lemmings' Ark that conceptually cannot work in vanilla Lemmix.

NL allows physics that are impossible in vanilla Lemmix:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1. Have a right-facing walker on top of left-pointing one-way block.
2. Assign digger. He'll dig into the one-way wall. (Works on all versions.)
3. Assign basher to the right-facing digger while he's still digging.

Vanilla: The basher assignment is not allowed.

NL: Assignment is allowed. Lemming bashes the left-pointing one-way wall to its right, immediately cancels due to hitting unremovable terrain (the left-pointing one-way wall), and turns. My solution relies on this behavior.

Genesis (e.g., on emulator): I have no idea. Who knows something about it?

I tested this against LemmixPlayerExtra.exe ("vanilla Lemmix" in this post) from namida's Lemmix Player collection. To play Lemmings' Ark there, put that exe in new directory, run it once, exit it. Edit the spawned ini file, set cheat codes to 1. Run the exe once again, press F2 in the main menu, enter code 0147 and hit return. During play, F11 pauses.

Thus, I assume that this is a backroute to Lemmings' Ark. I don't remember any other solutions, thus I can't judge how big of a backroute this is. Does this backroute make Lemmings' Ark too easy for its late spot in Redux (in the final rank Lunatic, level 30 out of 32)? Can you reasonably patch this backroute (I don't see how)?

Does vanilla Lemmix have physics identical to Genesis Lemmings?

-- Simon

[Simon]

The fun continues: I solved Lemmings' Ark in vanilla Lemmix in a way that fails conceputally in NL. To watch the replay in vanilla Lemmix, first start playing the level in vanilla Lemmix (see above post), then press L in vanilla Lemmix during play. A file browser opens. Select the replay from disk.

Reason for why this solution concept fails in NL:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

NL builders have a belly check: They stop building when their belly is inside terrain. That prevents them from building into the miner tunnel from below.

Vanilla builders, having their head already in the miner tunnel, will continue to build until their foot reaches the terrain. The bridge will connect with the terrain and the crowd can follow upwards. A single builder suffices to build into the miner tunnel from below.

I dislike the belly check.

Is there at all a solution to Lemmings' Ark that works in both engines (at least conceptually, not necessarily frame-perfectly identically)? Ron_Stard's 2016 topic about Lemmings' Ark in NL, haven't played around with those ideas yet.


Linux-specific: If you're running vanilla Lemmix in Wine, the file browser (for loading the replay) might not play nice with fullscreen Lemmix. Force windowed mode by running
wine explorer /desktop=1280x960 LemmixPlayerExtra.exe

-- Simon

[ericderkovits]

I tested the Genesis Megadrive version of Lemmings using the Fusion 3.64 emulator, and it won't let one bash to the right against
the left-facing arrows after digging at the top of the Lemmings' Ark level either. It appears that only Neolemmix lets one do it.
Also in Superlemmini it won't let one either.  So the level Groupie 33 'We don't need another hero'  of Lemmings World Tour wouldn't be possible in Vanilla lemmix or Superlemmini since it's required in the Solution of the level.

Also Superlemmini doesn't have the belly check like Neolemmix, so the builder completes his build into the miner tunnel.

here is the Youtube video showing the level in Superlemmini. (no belly check).  I guess I dislike the belly check also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zZsmRoP4Bs


Also WillLem noted the difference in his post 'Physic differences between Superlemmini and Neolemmix Number 7" where it takes fewer builders to reach a thin overhead platform'

[Simon]

Thanks for the exhaustive research! I've suspected that vanilla Lemmix and Genesis Lemmings had the same one-way assignment behavior, thanks for making it 100 % sure.

Your video with the SuperLemmini solution largely matches how I solved it in vanilla Lemmix, barring which climber does what near the end. I speculate that your solution is really close to what the devs intended.

-- Simon