Poll

Which of these two levels should be in the pack?

Havoc 12 "It's all a matter of timing"
5 (41.7%)
Mayhem 2 "The Boiler Room"
7 (58.3%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Voting closed: August 05, 2020, 01:56:08 pm

Author Topic: Lemmings Redux  (Read 5740 times)

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Offline Proxima

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Lemmings Redux
« on: August 26, 2019, 04:16:28 am »
Welcome to new-formats Lemmings Redux! :thumbsup:

If you're new to the Lemmings series and want to get to know the levels that started it all, or if you played the games a long time ago and want to revisit your childhood memories, this might be the pack for you.

Lemmings Redux is a compilation of 160 levels, selected and edited by the community, that are representative of the best of the original Lemmings games. We've cut out most of the levels that had you hold back the crowd and do a lot of building, and the ones that were all about difficulty of execution and timing those pernicious walking bombers. With more regret, a few levels that were fine puzzles but don't work as intended under NeoLemmix mechanics also had to go. The remaining levels have been arranged into a pack that can be played just like one of the original games, starting with simple but fun levels to ease you into the game, and ramping up to fiendish puzzles near the end.

The levels have also been improved and edited. We know these changes won't please everyone, but we've tried to find the best balance between faithfulness to the originals and streamlining the playing experience. Time limits have been removed (except when the time limit is an essential part of the level), lemming counts reduced, hidden traps revealed, and so on. We've also fixed backroutes on some levels, so that the player has to engage with the puzzle, hopefully leading to a greater appreciation of some of the beautiful solutions 8-)

All aspects of the pack, from level selection and ordering to the smallest changes, have been decided on by group discussion -- no wonder that it took us 18 months to finish putting the pack together! Early on, bsmith and namida were responsible for coordinating the discussion and compiling the pack according to group consensus; after namida's departure, I took over this role.

Lemmings Redux contains 160 levels, in five ranks of 32 levels each:

Gentle


Let's go to the moon!

Quirky


Haunted botanical garden

Zany


Mutiny on the Bounty

Manic


ROCKY VI

Lunatic


The Great Lemming Caper

Enjoy!
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 11:44:07 pm by Proxima »

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2019, 04:28:37 am »
Attached here is the "sunsoftspecial" music, used by Lunatic 16, Sega FOUR. All other levels use the default tracks.

I've made a few changes to the pack since the last version, and I want to get forum feedback on these before we decide that the pack is ready to be included in the NeoLemmix Installer.

Firstly, Manic 11, Oh No! Squish was replaced by Havoc 17, Where Lemmings Dare from ONML, for reasons I went into in this discussion topic. (In short: Oh No! Squish has backroutes that may be unfixable, and Where Lemmings Dare is a well-liked level that may have originally been left out of the Redux pack accidentally.)

I've added four new talismans, bringing the total up to 36:
* PoP YoR ToP: Solve with only bombers
* Where Lemmings Dare: Save 100%
* Water processing plant: Save 100%
* I am A.T.: Save 100%

This has caused some difficulty, since I strongly feel that the talismans for Water processing plant and I am A.T. should be gold, but I also wanted to rank Creature Discomforts back up to gold (which it was originally, and was demoted just because we wanted to have an 8-16-8 split). But that would give the pack 11 gold talismans, and I preferred to have either an 8-16-12 or 8-18-10 split.

So, on discord, Nessy and I have been considering a few different options, but we can't decide between them, so I would really like it if more people gave their opinions on this so we can come to a rough consensus. If necessary, I'll put up a poll.

* Promote Where Lemmings Dare to gold for 8-16-12 (this is the current state of the pack);
* Promote a different silver talisman to gold; Nessy suggests The Great Lemming Caper;
* Demote Cascade to silver for 8-18-10.

Offline Minim

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2019, 06:59:34 am »
BTW this is the first time I'm playing the redux: Great job! :thumbsup: I like most of the levels on there and most of the talismans are pretty good too.

Here are some of my opinions for talismans, i.e. the bottom three bullet points:

* In agreement to promote Where Lemmings Dare to gold.
* I personally think that either the Beast level or It's hero time should be promoted to gold instead of The Great Lemming Caper. The former because I was stumped, and the latter because I consider climbers to be as valuable as builders. A no-climber solution is also rare in Lemmings levels that usually require them. Mayhem 7 (Which as far as I know, only works in DOS mechanics) is one of my favourite examples. For the Caper level, I use the no-blocker solution every time I'm asked to solve it. Despite the eye-catching solution, there's too little effort required to get gold.
* Unsure about the demotion of cascade to Silver. I can't remember if I did this or not but one thing is for certain, the 99 release rate doesn't help with the execution, particularly with trapping the lemmings. Looking at the level though, it looks pretty obvious what the solution should be. If there's no consensus however keep this level at gold. Even saving 11 lemmings in Cascade is also quite a challenge.

I also think Quirky 32 should go up to silver, personally because there are so many groups to deal with with so little time. I found the Gentle 11 talisman too easy for silver, because it's only one obstacle, even though the trick needed is pretty impressive to watch. So I'd demote that to bronze.
Musical fact: All of Tim Wright's compositions for Original Lemmings are 125 BPM.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2019, 07:11:45 pm »
The first question is whether to promote Where Lemmings Dare or The Great Lemming Caper. If we promote WLD, then the 12 slots are filled and promoting another level is not on the table -- unless you propose that we promote WLD and one more level and demote Cascade.

In other words, the question is, assuming WLD stays gold, which of these three most deserves to be gold (bearing in mind only one can be): A Beast of a Level, It's hero time or Cascade? It's not clear from your post how you would answer that, so I need a clear answer before I can count your post as a vote. Of course, everyone else is welcome to give their opinions too.

* * *

At the other end, it's certainly possible to promote Quirky 32 (And then there were four) and demote Gentle 11 (Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming), since doing both keeps the numbers the same. Does anyone else think we should do this, or does anyone disagree?

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2019, 07:59:42 pm »
I've decided to have a go at all of the talismans under discussion to see what I think of them. I'm not going to focus too much on the numbers, more what I think each one individually should be, but I will list these from easiest to hardest IMO, so feel free to take that into account.

Manic 11 "Where Lemmings Dare" (click to show/hide)
Lunatic 1 "It's Hero Time" (click to show/hide)
Quirky 31 "Cascade" (click to show/hide)
Gentle 16 "A Beast Of A Level" (click to show/hide)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2019, 12:00:00 am »
Thanks both of you for your input, and Nessy for input given on discord. I've also gone back to the original Redux topic to see what was said about talismans there, since some of the contributors aren't around at the moment, but their feedback should still be taken into account.

Putting what everyone has said together, I think we are very close to a final decision, but I'd still like to wait a little longer to see if anyone (especially Minim) has anything else to say.

Bronze talismans will stay as they are -- And Then There Were Four remains bronze, Keep Your Hair On, Mr Lemming remains silver.

Also, A Beast of a Level will be up-ranked to gold.

We then need to choose one more gold, from the other four levels in namida's post. Right now, my personal inclination is towards Cascade, but The Great Lemming Caper is a strong contender, and Where Lemmings Dare isn't out of the running.

I don't want this to take too much longer to decide, so please everyone get your thoughts in 8-)

Offline Minim

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2019, 08:39:08 am »
I'm in agreement with Proxima that Cascade should go up to gold.

As for Gentle 11, I was basically talking about an alternate solution that doesn't use the blocker, but looking at my method again, I've realised how obscure that solution is as well, so I'm going to change my mind and agree that it stays at silver.
Musical fact: All of Tim Wright's compositions for Original Lemmings are 125 BPM.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2019, 02:22:18 pm »
Thank you. Okay, I think we have enough for a final decision.

I take Minim's post as withdrawing his vote for Where Lemmings Dare, since I stated that only one of the three can be gold; so WLD is out of the running with no-one really being in favour.

That leaves just Cascade and The Great Lemming Caper, and votes in this topic are split 2-2 between those, so taking previous feedback into account as well, Cascade wins and will remain gold. (Also, I have two additional reasons for this decision. I think veterans tend to underestimate the Cascade 100% talisman, because we are all familiar with the solution now; but it really is difficult for new players to work out. The Great Lemming Caper has a very elegant solution, but it also has hacky solutions such as turning one lemming around so he goes in the holding area on the left, making it less worthy of gold in my eyes.)

I've updated the zip in the first post with these decisions. I believe the pack is now ready to be included in the automatic installer. Huge thanks to everyone who helped to bring us to this point! :thumbsup:

Offline chrisleec728

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2019, 08:38:56 pm »
"Chill out" is also somewhat backroutable, as is MAYBE "Steel Block Party".
« Last Edit: October 07, 2019, 02:58:26 pm by chrisleec728 »

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2019, 02:50:40 pm »
Chill out: If you're talking about the no-climber solution, that's a challenge, not a backroute, as it's harder in both concept and execution than the intended solution. It could have been a talisman, but we're not adding more talismans now.

Steel Block Party has two different solutions and I am not enforcing either one as we don't know which was intended:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline chrisleec728

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2019, 02:18:31 pm »
Yeah, I think I read that about "Steel Block Party" in a different post; I used the second solution. I can't imagine how you could solve "Chill out" without a climber; the way I solved it DID involve one, but it still felt very much like a backroute (I think I know the intended solution).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline Swerdis

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2019, 07:07:47 pm »
Solved it today. A great and not too difficult pack. I was surprised how well i reminded the solutions of the old Lemmings 1 and ONML-levels, all in all. I had the most fun with the Genesis and PSP levels, though, for they were new to me. Didn't bother to get all the talimans - maybe later. All my solutions can be found here.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Vidusaka

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2019, 12:23:09 pm »
Fix for "Let's go camping", hopefully once and for all this time. The zip in the first post has also been updated.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2020, 02:08:48 pm »
Lemmings Redux has been updated once more (zip attached to the first post), and this is the definitive, final version unless a major bug turns up that requires fixing.

Changelog:

* Removed moss from steel on the following levels: One way or another; The Far Side; And then there were four; Where Lemmings Dare; Jump down; Over the wall. (I have not done this identically to namida in the conversions of the original level packs. I have left some moss along the bottom of the steel, especially in "One way or another", where namida preferred to put it all behind the steel. This means some pixels are non-steel in the Redux version, but with no real effect on the gameplay.)
* "ONML" changed to "Oh No! More Lemmings" in the author field of levels originating from ONML. (Let me know if I missed any.)
* Levels have been cleansed.

I'm pleased to report that the fix for "Let's go camping" seems to be robust. Even joshescue has sent a replay of the intended solution! :thumbsup:

Offline WillLem

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2020, 04:13:39 am »
Enjoying this pack, here are my replays for Gentle.

Mostly 100% saves and got a few Talismans! Can't quite figure out how to save 50 for the Talisman on 30 Turn around, young lemmings! though... ???

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2020, 09:43:50 pm »
namida and I, with help from DireKrow and WillLem, have finished looking through Lemmings Redux for the "skills you can't live without" challenge. We've also (with help from ccexplore) looked through the pack for the max saved challenge.

This has confirmed that there's nothing major that requires fixing, so I stand by my decision that the 18/1/20 revision is final, except for a couple of small things:

* Now that we've decided on changes to trigger areas of traps in the official styles, the trap used in "Electric circuit" can be moved up one pixel so it's more visible (which was, after all, the main reason for the trigger area change!)
* We may want to add more talismans. The max saved and SYCLW challenges include a lot of individual challenges (every skill type on every level), so we have to be careful not to go overboard, but we definitely found some interesting solutions along the way, and some of them might be worth including as talismans. I'll ask for opinions here especially from the people who took part in the challenge, but anyone is welcome to give feedback.

I'll leave this for a while until I've had time to look over our results before I can give my own opinion on adding talismans.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2020, 10:10:38 pm »
Copy/pasted from Discord:

- something on Going Their Seperate Ways, there's a few options here. no floaters was quite messy IIRC, but no climbers might be a bit more interesting
- Snow Joke with 1 basher maybe? although it's a bit on the tedious side
- Worra Lorra Old Blocks with no digger
- quite a few things to choose from on Rocky Road
- i don't remember which one would be most interesting, but i found a few things all of which i remember being quite tricky on Upside Down World
- Watch Your Fingertip, 100% might be a good talisman
- With A Twist Of Lemming Please, no climber
- Fix The Road, Quick - a builder limit, maybe not necesserially 8 (that's a bit messy) but 9 or 10 perhaps?
- Sega Four, no climbers - purely because this is a heavily climber-dependent level so the "whoa, you can do that?!" value of it
- Lemmings' Ark, 1 climber

Also - Acrophobia, 3 builders. (I achieved 2, but 2 is basically just an insanely optimized variation on 3 - and 3 is still gold-worthy as it is, IMO.)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2020, 12:22:46 am »
I had a go at all of the above today, and solved most of them. Replays attached. (Note: I haven't ruled out talismans other than the ones in namida's post; I'm just looking at these first. In particular, max saved results and my own SYCLW replays may provide some worthy challenges.)

Feedback (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 12:33:28 am by Proxima »

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2020, 03:44:35 pm »
Got the two I was missing.

Worra load of old blocks (no diggers): Only just achievable, but not that demanding in execution. Could well be a silver talisman.

SEGA Four (no climbers): The specifics of the terrain near the exit allow a much more skill-efficient trick here, saving enough skills for the rest of the solution. This is a good talisman (probably also silver).

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2020, 03:59:47 pm »
We currently have 36 talismans, and there are definitely at least five from the list above I am interested in adding (Going Their Separate Ways, SNOW JOKE, Worra load of old blocks, With a twist of lemming please, SEGA Four) so I think we will go past 40, in which case the next "nice" number to aim for is 48. That doesn't seem unrealistic, as the max saved challenge and my own contributions to SYCLW will provide other ideas.

Since I like the bronze-silver-gold split to consist of "nice" numbers as well, there are two main options I'm considering: keep the current 1:2:1 ratio (so, 12 bronze, 24 silver, 12 gold) or go for 8 bronze, 24 silver, 16 gold. I think I'll decide first on exactly which talismans we are adding, then choose one of these ratios and then consider the rank of each talisman, but feedback on both the selection and ranking is welcome at any point.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2020, 08:19:54 pm »
I was going to post this in "Talisman Ideas", but that got locked, so here we are.

"Flow Control" is an obvious candidate for RR talismans (if they were to be re-added); both "solve without changing the RR from its initial value" and "solve at constant RR 99" are interesting, difficult challenges that require puzzling out how they might be achievable, not just repeating the usual solution with more fiddly execution.

However, that is only one level, so I agree with namida's assessment that this talisman type will probably continue to have low usage and not be worth re-adding. In any case, "Flow Control" already has a talisman for saving at least 15 (and in fact, the initial-RR solution achieves this).

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2020, 10:39:06 pm »
Another possible candidate, if boosting the numbers is desired, is of course fewer diggers on I Am AT. I don't suggest making a talisman for 8 - that relies on a LOT of precision - but the same general concept could be done, with a bit more leniency, with perhaps 10 to 12 diggers.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2020, 11:43:52 pm »
How come multiples of 8 is a "nice" number for total number of talismans here? ???  (Or is it just multiples of 4 for each of gold/silver/bronze?)

Offline DireKrow

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2020, 12:14:28 am »
Highly divisible numbers are aesthetically appealing.
My NeoLemmix Levels:
The Krow Files (File A v1.2 released 21-Feb-2020)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2020, 12:18:36 am »
Well, the simple answer is that it fits with Redux having 32 levels per rank.

I remember that at some point, probably in my teenage years, I did an experiment. I had noticed that when it came to things like tempo markings in my musical compositions, I would choose the nearest "nice" number to the tempo I wanted, where "nice" meant a number like 32, 40 or 48 -- I couldn't exactly put my finger on what made some numbers "nice" and others not, but I instinctively knew which numbers were "nice" to me. So I drew up a list of "nice" numbers up to about 200 and tried to see if I could find a pattern.

It turned out that my "nice" numbers were almost exactly the practical numbers -- numbers such that any smaller number can be represented as the sum of some of its factors, so they must have a prime factorisation with predominantly small primes. I was very happy to discover that my aesthetic sense had a hidden mathematical basis :P

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2020, 09:08:29 pm »
- quite a few things to choose from on Rocky Road
- i don't remember which one would be most interesting, but i found a few things all of which i remember being quite tricky on Upside Down World

ROCKY ROAD already has a talisman for 100%, which eliminates bombers and blockers. Each destructive skill is fairly easy to eliminate separately, and I wouldn't consider any of these talisman-worthy.

2 builders, however, is very hard -- it's obvious enough where the builders go, but then you have to work out the skill allocation for the rest of the route, with the final linchpin being that the crowd should not be controlled, but kept out of danger by bridging the gaps while they are heading back towards the left.

I would consider this level the strongest argument so far for occasionally allowing multiple talismans per level.

I'll have a look at Upside-down World later.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2020, 01:27:47 am »
Upside-down World already has a talisman for 100%, which can be done with or without the blocker, but "100%" and "no blocker" are closely enough related that I wouldn't have a talisman for both.

No digger is trivial, and "1 basher" and "1 miner" are fairly simple rearrangements of the normal solution.

No builder is a little harder, requiring a trick with the one-way wall. No climber is the really interesting skill reduction; I don't think I would drop "save 100%" in favour of "no climber", but if we allow multiple talismans per level, we could definitely have both (and I would rate both as silver).

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2020, 01:31:22 am »
If 100% vs No Blocker are closely related enough, but No Climber would just be a second silver: Would having "no blocker" instead of "100%" (thus allowing a lose-1 blocker route) be Bronze-worthy, without losing too much of what makes the talisman interesting?

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2020, 01:59:02 am »
I guess so, but is there a reason against having two talismans of the same standard on the same level? (The two I'm considering on ROCKY ROAD, "save 100%" and "2 builders", would both be gold if we have both.)

I've started going over results from the max saved challenge, and solving for myself the results contributed by namida and ccexplore.

Feedback (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 02:15:48 am by Proxima »

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2020, 11:02:15 pm »
Okay, the talisman update isn't ready yet (I still need to match ccexplore's max saved results and then take a look over my own SYCLW achievements), but since roundthewheel is playing Redux at the moment, I decided to slip in a small update.

* Lunatic 15 "Evil whisper": Enlarged the long vertical steel area to prevent a backroute.
* Lunatic 16 "SEGA Four": Changed the music to the title screen music from the SMS version (provided by namida).
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 11:48:48 pm by Proxima »

Offline Crane

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Redux Suggestion: Talisman removal + addition
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2020, 11:35:25 am »
Hi everyone.

This sprung to mind while watching roundthewheelrtw play through Lemmings Redux.

The talisman for The Great Lemming Caper is too easy to get without even trying for that late on in the pack. You almost have to try to find the Blocker solution to not get it, especially originally you don't know about undermining Blockers at that point.

To keep the numbers even, I would like to suggest the removal of that talisman and the addition of a silver one for Lunatic 29: "Save Me": Lemmings Mastery - Save 45 - basically it means you can only use 5 Blockers without losing any lemmings at the end.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Redux Suggestion: Talisman removal + addition
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2020, 01:52:55 pm »
Firstly, we're already considering talisman additions/removals, and I want to wait until rtw is done with playing the pack so we can ask his opinion (as well as his viewers). I'll take your suggestion into account, but it might not get in, depending on the numbers we end up with.

It's possible to save 47 on Save Me. That said, talismans don't have to be for the maximum possible; Flow Control's talisman is deliberately less.

Redux talismans don't have names at the moment, so if we name any then we would have to come up with (and agree on) names for all of them.

Offline Crane

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Re: Redux Suggestion: Talisman removal + addition
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2020, 03:19:07 pm »
47? Damn. I can hazard a guess as to how to do that (build to the levy from the trapdoor and use 3 builders to make a wall in place odd one of the Blockers?). Granted, unless I was told you could save 47, I wouldn't have thought it was possible!

Is there a more appropriate topic or location where you're taking suggestions?

Offline Proxima

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Re: Redux Suggestion: Talisman removal + addition
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2020, 03:26:18 pm »
Just use this topic for now; one of the mods can merge it with the main Redux topic.

MOD: Topics have now been merged :)
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 03:32:27 pm by Flopsy »

Offline Crane

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2020, 06:33:39 pm »
Not sure if this is helpful or not, but here are my Save 45 and Save 47 solutions for Save Me.  If that is the only way to save 47 lemmings, it's kind of ridiculous and feels very messy rather than intricate.  The other thing is that my solution takes longer than 5 minutes (the level's original time limit), but it could probably be optimised if the lemmings are released sooner and the original pathfinder becomes the 2nd lemming going towards the exit.

Offline Crane

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2020, 04:10:15 pm »
It seems I have an old version of Redux which didn't have the talisman on "I am A.T.", I don't think, hence my suggestion to name the one in "Save Me" as "Lemmings Mastery".  Still, I just completed it now, and wow, that was fiddly... not sure if I enjoy it though - still it is a challenge, I'll give it that.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2020, 04:33:04 pm »
Now that roundthewheel has finished solving the levels (talisman solutions are still to come), this is a good time to recap where we're up to.

* No further levels requiring backroute fixes have emerged, so the level layouts will not be changed any further from this point, except:
* Since NL has fixed some misleading trap trigger locations (notably the rope trap and the "Poor Wee Creatures" trap), the traps can be adjusted slightly to be more visible (which was the main point of arguing for the change, after all). This will only have a slight effect on the gameplay, and most or all replays should still work.
* I am considering moving Manic 11 "Where Lemmings Dare" later, possibly switching it with Manic 31 "With a twist of lemming, please". (Other possible candidates for switching that have been discussed are Manic 27 "Watch your fingertip" and Lunatic 7 "Down, along, up, in that order". As always, I'm open to feedback on this, and we can have a vote if necessary.)
* We are considering adding some talismans, and it's worth considering whether we want to remove any at the same time, so as to finish with a nice number. I want to wait on this until roundthewheel has finished solving the talismans so he and his viewers can join in the discussion.
* Should "Pop Yor Top" revert to lose-7 as on the original game? That would make the "bombers only" talisman impossible, so we would have to remove that one.

Offline Crane

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2020, 06:40:31 pm »
Personally, I would say that all solutions should be possible in their original games, so the Bomber-only solution I would consider ineligible (although I'd keep 10 Bombers just to see if players are paying attention) - the only talisman-like solution I can think of for "PoP YoR ToP" is "Save 100% in under 1:00.00", which is Bronze at best.

The only changes should be backroute fixes as you said, although what counts as a backroute is questionable - for example, is the Save 47 solution to "Save Me" a backroute?  Also, is simply bombing through the thick wall in "The Steel Mines of Kessel" a backroute, instead of only bombing through the thin terrain and taking the low route? (I always saw this level as a 'think ahead' test rather than a brute force test - it would make the talisman more legitimate too since you'll have to manage the water pits)

Also, solutions that take longer than the original time limit should be looked at with care.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 06:45:52 pm by Crane »

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2020, 07:01:44 pm »
The only changes should be backroute fixes as you said, although what counts as a backroute is questionable - for example, is the Save 47 solution to "Save Me" a backroute?  Also, is simply bombing through the thick wall in "The Steel Mines of Kessel" a backroute, instead of only bombing through the thin terrain and taking the low route? (I always saw this level as a 'think ahead' test rather than a brute force test - it would make the talisman more legitimate too since you'll have to manage the water pits)

Also, solutions that take longer than the original time limit should be looked at with care.

We already discussed Kessel in the development topic and decided to leave it, although given how few people contributed to each decision, we could reopen some of them if you (or anyone) really feels strongly about it. I'm against blocking that route because putting steel there would spoil the nice-looking bone structure; neither solution is really more obvious than the other (given that it's not obvious a priori that you have enough resources to get through the thick wall and still complete the solution; and it takes other skills as well as bombers and you still have to deal with the trap); and we have no idea what the developers intended.

I've said this a few times, but "backroute" is not just a synonym for "unintended solution". It should mean a solution that feels more like bypassing the puzzle rather than engaging with it. Turning around at the top on "Let's go camping" is a very clear example, as is the direct drop solution to "Acrophobia". The blocker solution on "The Great Lemming Caper" is much more debatable, and I'm citing it as an example to show that even when we're clear about a definition of "backroute", it's still a fuzzy line. While it does bypass what is really interesting about the no-blocker solution -- having to time the two lemmings' movements relative to each other instead of being able to hold one of them in place as long as you want -- it is still a different, valid way of engaging with the puzzle as it was presented to the player. We discussed this one (as well as "Final impediment") in the development topic and there were very clear votes for leaving these levels as they are, with talismans to reward players for finding the more interesting solutions.

In short: since there will be one more update to the pack anyway, I am open to making more backroute fixes if necessary, and I'll listen if you have a strong opinion that a particular solution should be removed; but if no strong reasons for making changes turn up, there will not be any more backroute fixes. Also, I intend the next update to be absolutely final so that players have a stable final version, and we don't have to worry about our challenge results being invalidated with further changes.

Offline Crane

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2020, 07:19:40 pm »
That sounds fair.  Regarding Kessel, I wouldn't have added steel, but would have just added a bit more regular terrain on the right side to make it slightly thicker at floor level.  Given how there are deliberately thin parts of the floor and only 10 Bombers, Blockers and Builders, an educated guess tells me that the developers want you to plot a course through the thin parts of the level.  I'm not sure how practical it is to brute force your way through the thick wall at the top on the Amiga version even with Blockers.  Your call though.

True, an unintended solution isn't a backroute, especially if it's intricate and clever.  It depends on the spirit of the level.  I wouldn't call the Blocker solution a backroute, since the tools (remember the original had 10 Bashers, Miners and Diggers) seem to imply there are multiple solutions.  Granted, the Blocker solution does allow you to trap a Lemming.

My personal opinions based on the level design and my own personal feelings.
- Save 47 solution to Save Me... questionable (it's fairly clear that the designers want you to block the Builder going to the right to get on top).
- Thick wall solution to Steel Mines of Kessel... backroute (the thin parts of the terrain imply that the designers want you to use the Bombers there instead of just brute force something similar to the Fun version).
- Blocker solution to The Great Lemming Caper... acceptable (using a Blocker/Miner turnaround trick takes a stretch of the imagination).

These are just my personal thoughts though.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2020, 07:42:03 pm »
Another thing to note on Kessel is that since NL tracks personal records, the player can always challenge themselves to save as many as possible, even without a talisman for doing so. Saving 44/50 absolutely requires taking the route through the thin terrain and over the water.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2020, 11:53:22 pm »
Replays of all talismans 8-) for roundthewheel and anyone else who wants them.

(rtw: I've included all talismans including the ones you've already solved. My solutions to some of these may be interesting to you, especially "A beast of a level" and "The Steel Mines of Kessel".)

Offline Crane

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2020, 12:34:52 pm »
I have a challenge for The Crankshaft if you're interested, although it's at least silver because it requires a miner trick to save 100%...

Save 50 using only miners and climbers

It's obviously a step up from simply having no builders, plus it may look a bit messy if it says "Save 50 with no floaters, bombers, blockers, builders or diggers", although you could remove bombers from that and name the talisman "Now use miners and climbers" so it's clear.  Here's a replay of how it's done.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2020, 05:01:47 pm »
One way it could be done:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If that's what you intend, this trick is extremely fiddly in NeoLemmix so I would be very reluctant to make a level or talisman requiring it. In addition, we already have a bronze talisman for The Crankshaft, and it's important to keep a good balance between bronze, silver and gold, so I definitely don't want to replace any of the existing bronzes (except maybe PoP YoR ToP, as discussed above).

Offline Crane

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2020, 08:26:02 pm »
It might be slightly fiddly, yeah, but nowhere near as bad as the "I am A.T." talisman, and your solution sounds perfectly acceptable too if the first miner can survive the fall.

My intention would be to replace the existing talisman on The Crankshaft - but if you feel it's not a good idea, then I'll gladly step aside.

ADDENDUM: In my solution in the post above, that miner stopping trick only has to be performed once.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 08:34:12 pm by Crane »

Offline Crane

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2020, 10:13:57 am »
This is just an opinion again, but for the "Save 100%" talisman on Water Processing Plant, I would like to suggest reducing its difficulty from Gold to Silver, since I don't personally think it's too difficult to work out how to only use 4 Builders there while saving everyone... compare with other nightmarish ones like "Save 100%" on "I am A.T.", which requires knowing about or discovering the Digger-cancelling trick and would otherwise invoke a "How the hell are you meant to do this?" reaction.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2020, 12:28:47 am »
Long post coming up. Please, everyone who's interested in the Redux pack, read carefully and share your opinions.

As of the release of NL 12.9, namida has now decided to ship Redux with NL, and discontinue support for the original levels other than the Redux pack, so that Redux will be the only official NL version of the original levels from now on.

It's desirable for Redux to be declared final as regards level selection, talismans and backroute fixes, so that we don't have to worry about different users having different versions of Redux, and so that we can post challenge results without having to worry about the pack changing again. I had thought that the current version could be final, but roundthewheel's Let's Play has brought up a couple of issues; and since a new version will be necessary to fix those, we may as well have one last consideration of other changes we might make.

Firstly, is everyone okay with the current size of the pack and selection of levels, or do you have suggestions for other levels that should be included? I am really just asking this to be absolutely thorough; I don't think it's at all likely we will make any changes to level selection at this very late stage. But namida's declaration may have changed some people's opinions; I myself have a few favourite levels that didn't make the cut; there are new forum members around who weren't part of the original decision-making. So if anyone has any opinions, now is the time to put them forward.

Secondly, does anyone have any criticism of the current ordering? The one change I will almost certainly make, since I've asked for opinions on this during the LP and there seems to be consensus, is to move Manic 11 "Where Lemmings Dare" later within the rank, most likely switching it with Manic 31 "With a twist of lemming, please".

Assuming the selection and ordering won't take long to resolve, we can go straight on to discussing talismans. I've asked for opinions on this already, and there seems to be a consensus that we shouldn't add too many talismans at this stage. But there are definitely some good ideas for talismans that have come from the max saved and "skills you can't live without" challenges, and only one current talisman ("PoP YoR ToP") that doesn't seem worth keeping; so I think going up to 40 might be the best bet.

Just to be clear, I want to select talismans first, and only when the selection is finalised, decide about ranking them. (We could also give names to the talismans, as Crane has suggested recently; but it must be all or none.)

Looking through recent suggestions and the challenge topics, I've drawn up a shortlist of talismans I like best, but this does not mean I am only considering these; anyone is welcome to suggest others.

* Chill out! - No climbers
* Acrophobia - Save 100% or no diggers
* No justice for the hero - Save 100%
* Lemmy in the cold, cold ground - No bashers or no miners
* Going Their Separate Ways - Max 20 skills
* SNOW JOKE - 1 basher
* Worra load of old blocks - No diggers
* ROCKY ROAD - 2 builders (this would be in addition to the existing "Save 100%" talisman)
* Steel Block Party - No builders
* Be more than just a number - Save 100%
* Fix the road, quick - Save 100% with 10 builders
* SEGA Four - No climbers
* With a twist of lemming, please - No climbers
* Temple of Love - Save 29/30
* Save Me - Save 45/50

...and there may be others I've missed, but I have tried to look thoroughly through both challenge topics, as well as posts in this topic. Since that's 15, adding all of them would bring us to 51. We could go for 48 or 50, but most people I've spoken to seem to prefer a number in the 32-40 range, so maybe we should select just a few from the above list.

We can also consider removing some of the existing talismans, but one thing is not up for discussion: Redux is aimed at new players who may be experiencing the original levels for the first time, so challenges like saving 100% on "Cascade" that are interesting to new players will not be removed just because they are old hat to Lemmings veterans.

I would really appreciate it if everyone would take the time to contribute their opinions. If not, I can make all the necessary decisions by myself, but I won't feel the same confidence in those decisions that I do when they're reached through discussion and consensus.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 12:36:19 am by Proxima »

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2020, 01:13:19 am »
As an addendum, since this has been brought up more than once:

In the original discussion of which levels to backroute-fix and which to leave, it seemed there was a consensus for leaving the blockers in "The Great Lemming Caper", necessitating having a talisman for not using the blockers. I can't remember whether this was one of the things we voted on or whether it just emerged from forum posts. We could potentially go back on this decision and remove the blockers after all, since some people feel it's weird to have this talisman. But again, since this is specifically one of the things we discussed in the original topic, I would need to see a clear consensus in favour of removing the blockers before making this change.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2020, 04:54:09 am »
Quote
it seemed there was a consensus for leaving the blockers in "The Great Lemming Caper", necessitating having a talisman for not using the blockers.

I disagree with the second part of this. I would strongly advocate against removing the blockers, but I'm fairly neutral on the talisman. I mentioned this on Discord but in short, I feel the blockers should only be removed if their sole purpose was to position bombers. In practice, this pretty much just means Fun 6 and Fun 18 - and even the latter is slightly debatable, because they could also be placed next to a firepit to prevent lemmings going into it.

Offline WillLem

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2020, 01:34:11 am »
I'd suggest (if possible) inclusion of the following levels. Even if not in their original versions, these can be made into very interesting levels with a minimum of tweaking:

The Ascending Pillar Scenario
Mary Poppins' Land
Take A Running Jump
Steel Works

Oh No! It's The 4TH DIMENSION!

And, you're welcome to use the recoloured exit and entrance graphics for the "special" levels.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2020, 07:29:31 pm »
Modifications in Redux are solely for the purpose of blocking backroutes, or NeoLemmix-izing the levels. Redux isn't a pack of derivative levels (well, in a sense it is, but not in the way that I get your post to be implying), just the same ones but NeoLemmix-ized.

Out of those suggestions:
- The Ascending Pillar Scenario; no, just no. Perhaps its easier version if some more filler for the early ranks are needed (although even this, there's likely better candidates), but the repeat doesn't have much value. There are better candidates (such as Taxing 3) for levels requiring a digger pit or similar, likewise, I'm sure the "dig down rather than build up to make a safe fall" appears elsewhere, though I'm not awake enough yet to think of specific examples. And the middle segment, of course, is just a builderfest.
- Mary Poppins' Land; I don't feel super strongly about this one but don't see any reason (other than "there are better choices", as applicable) to not include it either.
- Take A Running Jump; I do like this level but backroutes are an issue. It would need significant changes to eliminate a certain well-known backroute, and even then, variants of it would remain open. So I think more on technical reasons, this one isn't a good pick.
- Steel Works; this was discussed on Discord the other day. Basically, while the end segment is somewhat interesting, the rest of it is just a tedious builderfest, which makes it a very strong candidate to not include. Proxima also felt the 1-pixel-too-far splat start was awkward, too, although I personally didn't see too much of an issue with that. Cutting it down to just the end section doesn't really feel appropriate for Redux.
- Oh No! It's The 4th Dimension!; I'm neutral on this one much like Mary Poppins' Land.

With that being said, one level has come to mind that I'd personally argue for inclusion of. Mayhem 2 "The Boiler Room". While it does share a main trick with Taxing 27 "Call In The Bomb Squad", a key point of difference is that the trick is not as obvious here. I don't feel super strongly about this, though.

Offline WillLem

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2020, 09:52:26 pm »
- Take A Running Jump; I do like this level but backroutes are an issue. It would need significant changes to eliminate a certain well-known backroute.

Out of interest, which backroute?

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2020, 10:32:07 pm »
- Take A Running Jump; I do like this level but backroutes are an issue. It would need significant changes to eliminate a certain well-known backroute.

Out of interest, which backroute?

Blocking off the way up to the top by sealing the one-pixel corridors with a builder, rather than building a splatform.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2020, 11:42:09 pm »
Whether that's a backroute or not is somewhat debatable.  Unless the mechanics changed in NeoLemmix, the builder that seals up the one-pixel corridor will not himself be able to turn around, he will still follow the way up and eventually splat unless you do the splatform anyway.  The only reason you don't need to bother is because the level lets you lose 1.  At the same time, lose 1 is rather unlikely if you did do the splatform approach, unless you're slightly careless at the beginning when you need to spam-build a little.

It's also surprising how much building you need to make the splatform safe, you pretty much almost have to start building as soon as the lemming finishes falling down the cliff, or your splatform apparently won't be quite high enough to stop the splatting.

Honestly I don't find that level terribly interesting, but if people actually want to include that level in Redux and yet you're really bothered by the seal-the-corridor route, you could consider changing save requirement to 100% so that the splatform must be done.

Offline WillLem

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2020, 08:23:00 am »
Blocking off the way up to the top by sealing the one-pixel corridors with a builder, rather than building a splatform.

As ccx said, I'm pretty sure that isn't a backroute because the level lets you lose 1; since 1 lemming walks up the corridor and to his death (unless you build said splatform to save him, of course) having sealed the corridor with a builder for the others, it seems likely this is intended.

It's also the solution that's suggested in the Prima Publishing Lemmings: The Official Companion which was created and licensed by Psygnosis, which I think at least makes the solution acceptable if not intended by the level's designer.

It's also surprising how much building you need to make the splatform safe, you pretty much almost have to start building as soon as the lemming finishes falling down the cliff, or your splatform apparently won't be quite high enough to stop the splatting.

You can also build from the cliff itself to prevent this being an issue, as long as the 1-pixel corridor has been sealed.

if people actually want to include that level in Redux and yet you're really bothered by the seal-the-corridor route, you could consider changing save requirement to 100% so that the splatform must be done.

+1 for this: I agree that this would be an ideal way to present the level in Redux.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2020, 09:05:00 am »
Okay, so there is definitely some interest in enlarging the pack. That doesn't mean it's guaranteed to happen; for one thing, I have to balance this against quite a few people who've said that the pack is a good size already. I'm pretty sure there aren't any currently included levels that should be removed -- I'm certainly willing to listen if you have suggestions for removals, but since we went through a lengthy selection process to make sure there was firm consensus for which levels made it in, I would have to see a very strong shift of opinion against any particular level before I'd consider removing it.

If we don't remove any levels, then we currently have 160 (32 per rank), and only a few possible additions have been suggested. I'm not wild about the idea of having 33 per rank (especially since the original games usually had round numbers or powers of 2 per rank -- 30 in Lemmings, 20 in ONML, 16 in Holiday); but maybe other people don't feel as strongly about this as I do? We could consider going up to 35 per rank, or even 40, but that would require adding a lot of levels that were considered not worthy of inclusion in the original discussion. Also, large ranks may be a little off-putting to players as the landmark of having a rank completed would be a long way off from the start. (One possibility would be to have 6 ranks of 30, 180 in total, but again, that would require finding 20 new levels.)

So I don't know what the best thing is to do here. Maybe I'll leave it a little while longer to see how things go, and put up a poll if necessary.

My thoughts on the specific levels that have been mentioned:

The ascending pillar scenario: The interesting (and difficult) part of this level is containing the crowd at the beginning, with so little space to work with. (I was stuck on this level for about a year!) I think it could potentially be worth including for this reason, even if the rest of it is just building.

Heaven can wait (we hope): This was a striking level in the original game, because of the tight time limit and 100% save requirement. I think (but can't be sure) that even for a new player, it would be less impressive in NeoLemmix, because the player would be used to framestepping to release the crowd at the correct time (although if Redux is the only pack they have played, there are not that many time-limited levels at all). The tactic of trapping the crowd in a digger pit rather than using blockers is a valuable one to showcase, so I'll check whether we already have any levels like this.

Mary Poppins' Land: This is an interesting case, because Nepster argued for removing it and adding Blizzard 1; I was against that; and with the way bsmith counted up votes, that meant neither level got included, even though it's possible Nepster may have felt that at least one of the two should make it in. I think it's a decent level and a clear example of a useful tactic -- but Old MacDonald Had a Farm feels like a more complex and interesting expansion of the same idea, so that would be a strike against it.

Take a running jump: This feels redundant, even with the proposed fix. There isn't much to it other than building a landing bridge, and we definitely have other levels that show that.

Steel Works: One of my own favourites, but that's partly because of its placement as one of only four levels unlocked from the start, so it was extremely daunting to get a glimpse of the level of complexity the game would eventually work up to, and of course very satisfying when I finally managed to beat it. That wouldn't work at all in NL, because all levels are unlocked, so the player has no particular reason to fixate on the first level of the last rank; and in any case we've chosen It's hero time for that position and I'm happy with that decision.

All that aside -- the ending part of the level is good but neither the beginning nor the middle shows anything we don't have in other levels, so overall I'd rather let this one go than try to fix it into a worthy candidate level, since really we would then be making our own level inspired by the original, and that's beyond the scope of Redux.

Oh No! It's the 4th Dimension! -- This has some interesting features but is spoiled by too much building and a save requirement so low that you can let the lower-left lemmings all die. Again, a good candidate for making a derivative level for another project, but not so much for this one.

The Boiler Room -- I do like this level, especially the daunting "this is completely impossible" first impression it gives. Redundancy with Call in the bomb squad isn't an issue since that level isn't in Redux, although the somewhat similar Don't leave any Lemmings is.

Since I'm neutral-to-negative about most of these, my own inclination is to leave the pack at 160 levels (which would certainly be the simplest option!) but again, I want to take everyone's views into account, so please keep the discussion going -- I'm really glad that even after the huge discussion we've already had, people are still willing to take the time to put their views forward.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2020, 09:43:40 am »
I definitely wouldn't say there's a critical need to include more. My comments were more "if more are going to be added, this is my input about which ones". Likewise, I don't recall any level standing out as particularly worthy of removal either, so adding would likely be either swapping one borderline case for another (which I'd say don't do; let the one that's already in win on "it's a hassle to change now, this level was the lucky one of the two" grounds), or increasing the total number (which I think is unnecessary, but not outright objectionable).

If expanding it, I'd be in favor of increasing the rank size rather than adding an extra rank. Adding an extra rank requires further discussion of how to spread the levels out between ranks; simply keeping the same overall order but changing the cutoff points could end up with rank starters / finishers that don't feel so appropriate for the position, etc.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 09:49:20 am by namida »

Offline WillLem

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2020, 10:30:14 am »
One possibility would be to have 6 ranks of 30, 180 in total, but again, that would require finding 20 new levels.

If any pack enlargement does take place, I'd suggest this would be the best way to do it as more & smaller ranks is better than fewer & larger.

since really we would then be making our own level inspired by the original, and that's beyond the scope of Redux.

To be fair, a lot of Redux levels seem to do exactly this by changing skillset, time limit, amount of lems, etc. For Oh No! It's the 4th Dimension!, for instance, simply increasing the save requirement would be enough to render this one less trivial.

Adding an extra rank requires further discussion of how to spread the levels out between ranks; simply keeping the same overall order but changing the cutoff points could end up with rank starters / finishers that don't feel so appropriate for the position, etc.

The simplest way around this would be to leave the start and last levels as they are for each rank, and it's possible that current members of the community may enjoy being part of the process of contributing to Redux.

I say all this without wishing to give the impression that I'm all for Redux being changed or expanded, but opening the pack up to the community once more (particularly now that it's bundled with NeoLemmix) and responding to feedback on what levels people would like to see included definitely seems like a positive thing to do. I'm communicating my thoughts in that spirit more than anything else.

Offline chrisleec728

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #58 on: May 29, 2020, 12:56:49 pm »
On the one hand "Bomboozal" has been reduced from Taxing to maybe Fun difficulty due to untimed bombers, which makes replacing "A task for bombers" with it an interesting idea at least (you've still got "bomb" in the title for one thing), but on the other hand "A task for bombers" is better known as a tutorial level, so I'm not sure what to lean towards. Just a couple thoughts of my own.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #59 on: May 29, 2020, 05:22:07 pm »
If any pack enlargement does take place, I'd suggest this [6 x 30] would be the best way to do it as more & smaller ranks is better than fewer & larger.

Another possibility is 6 x 28 = 168, which only requires us to find eight new levels. Namida is right, though -- adding an extra rank would require a lot of restructuring work, so I'm reluctant to take that step unless it's really clear it's the best decision.

Quote
To be fair, a lot of Redux levels seem to do exactly this by changing skillset, time limit, amount of lems, etc.

I don't see those as comparable. Time limits were removed except where essential, because that's an established NeoLemmix convention and makes the pack feel more at home and less like an import of older content. Reducing the lemming counts similarly makes them feel more like NL levels (although that is less firmly established as a convention than removing time limits). Neither of these changes affects the solution to the level.

The only cases where we have changed the range of possible solutions were to fix backroutes, and only in really clear cases -- for instance, "The Great Lemming Caper" still has a variety of solutions, even though the intended solution is beautiful and uses a unique trick, because we felt that fixing the level to absolutely require this solution would be too much of a change from the original.

"Oh No! It's the 4th Dimension" is one case where we could consider a fix to make the level more interesting -- but it would also make it even more builder-heavy. I guess we'll see how the conversation goes regarding number of levels first of all, and if we do enlarge the pack, that one is a possibility. It's just not one that, right now, I regret not being included.

Quote
opening the pack up to the community once more (particularly now that it's bundled with NeoLemmix) and responding to feedback on what levels people would like to see included definitely seems like a positive thing to do. I'm communicating my thoughts in that spirit more than anything else.

That's why I'm asking for input now :P

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #60 on: May 29, 2020, 08:02:50 pm »
On the one hand "Bomboozal" has been reduced from Taxing to maybe Fun difficulty due to untimed bombers, which makes replacing "A task for bombers" with it an interesting idea at least (you've still got "bomb" in the title for one thing), but on the other hand "A task for bombers" is better known as a tutorial level, so I'm not sure what to lean towards. Just a couple thoughts of my own.

Disagree. Bomboozal or Let's Block And Blow (the difference between the two is basically negligable in NL) never showcases using bombers to blow through a thin vertical wall, only through a thin horizontal platform.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #61 on: May 29, 2020, 10:12:44 pm »
I don't recall anyone else on this thread asking for the bomber tutorial level to be replaced, nor for Bomboozal to be added anywhere to Redux?  I'm sure there are more interesting levels to consider for inclusion first before we get to considering levels like Bomboozal.

Offline chrisleec728

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #62 on: May 29, 2020, 10:18:42 pm »
Never mind. Namida made a good argument against it, plus I wasn't officially suggesting it anyways.

Offline WillLem

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2020, 06:13:56 pm »
Here's an LP of the first rank of Redux, episode 1 of the new series!

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2020, 06:21:42 pm »
I was just about to post that link myself :P

In a comment, ericderkovits said he would prefer it if every level had its original music, instead of the current system of cycling through all Lemmings / ONML tracks so each one is used equally often. (This was not a deliberate decision; we simply never even considered that it might be an idea to do things differently.) Does anyone else feel like this? I'm open to making this change if there is a consensus in favour of it -- but it would have to be a clear consensus, because there may be people among the "silent majority" who prefer the current setup and would be against this change.

At the moment, Redux has 160 levels and cycles through 23 tracks. Since 7 x 23 = 161, all tracks are played seven times each except for ohno_04 and the tracks that get skipped when a special graphics level appears (orig_16, orig_02, orig_11, ohno_03 and orig_06).

With the proposed change, ONML tracks would play on the ONML levels (36 in total), Holiday tracks on the Holiday levels (12); we'd still have special graphics tracks for the first four special levels, and original Lemmings tracks on the remaining 108 levels. However, because of the lack of any numerical pattern in which levels are included, we could end up with some tracks playing a lot more often than others (as the Genesis version already does). I haven't yet looked in detail to see what things would look like.

Any feelings for or against this proposal?

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #65 on: May 30, 2020, 07:03:48 pm »
Yes mine has all the music from each level as they are supposed to be, orig, ohno, holiday, genesis, psp, nes and I think even 1 zx spectrum level. I have a folder on my hard drive that has all the music for any lemmings game-dos, amiga, many others(got from various sources online).
if other people want this, I can upload the music. I even have music for 3d lemmings, revolution, all world of lemmings, adventures of lomax, the tribes (amiga, dos, SNES). All are in .ogg form because I use also for Superlemmini. But I won't upload unless others want since redux has a lot of music that would be played often like genesis. I don't mind that's why I changed mine, but others may. Thx Eric.

Offline chrisleec728

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #66 on: May 30, 2020, 07:24:28 pm »
I was thinking the same thing actually, especially since I like the PSP music in particular. However, there are four different levels that are attributed to both Genesis and SNES and others from Budget Amiga, Prima and ZX Spectrum, so I'm not sure how that would work.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #67 on: May 30, 2020, 07:38:30 pm »
Yes mine has all the music from each level as they are supposed to be, orig, ohno, holiday, genesis, psp, nes and I think even 1 zx spectrum level. I have a folder on my hard drive that has all the music for any lemmings game-dos, amiga, many others(got from various sources online).
if other people want this, I can upload the music. I even have music for 3d lemmings, revolution, all world of lemmings, adventures of lomax, the tribes (amiga, dos, SNES). All are in .ogg form because I use also for Superlemmini. But I won't upload unless others want since redux has a lot of music that would be played often like genesis. I don't mind that's why I changed mine, but others may. Thx Eric.

That sounds like a great resource! I think you should definitely post it somewhere (maybe in Level Design?) since others may want to use different versions of the music for customising their own NL installation or for custom packs.

For Redux, I wasn't considering changing which version of the music plays to match the game it comes from, since I would find it jarring to keep switching between Amiga music, Genesis music and so forth from level to level -- just maybe (if this is what the community wants) playing the same track as the original games played on that level. What do others think about this?

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #68 on: May 30, 2020, 08:27:46 pm »
it wouldn't be too hard because all my music files are cleary labed ie orig_01cancan_dos, tune3_amiga, specialone_genesis. Not just labled orig01 or tune03. so if they were in the music folder one could just look for the music file with the _ver. But it would take time, since redux has many levels. In Superlemmini much easier and quicker. for the pack you want (ie SNES) just in the levelpack.ini just add the music_id at end of each level and just list the music in that pack ie Music_## = musicname.mod(.ogg)

This is why I wish the neolemmix editor could some how read a music.ini file and you could put the levels and the musictitle in it.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #69 on: May 30, 2020, 08:55:04 pm »
I suspect that if we try to match the original games' track selection, we're going to run into "which version?" questions. Just between the three most significant ones, my understanding is that Genesis has no pattern (it's basically arbitrarily selected for each level - though I might be mixing it up with SNES here?), while Amiga follows a pattern, and DOS it entirely depends on what level the player started with and how many they've beaten - which means that for DOS exclusive levels (Vacation From Gemland, and anything from Prima) there isn't a "correct" music.

I don't really have anything against this idea, but I personally wouldn't consider it worthwhile either - even without the above, it's a lot of work.

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This is why I wish the neolemmix editor could some how read a music.ini file and you could put the levels and the musictitle in it.

You can sort of achieve this by using a music.nxmi file and having the same number of lines in it, as the total number of levels in your pack. However, this is a really kludgy way to do things, and of course, it breaks as soon as an NXLV file is played standalone (including in testplay mode from the editor) rather than as part of a pack; so I really strongly don't recommend doing this.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #70 on: June 03, 2020, 02:24:07 am »
From another topic:

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"It's all a matter of timing" duplicates the middle hatch, after a vote was taken specifically on this level.

I don't recall the vote, but I'd like to specifically raise that I feel this duplication is not acceptable. It breaks expectations of the order lemmings will spawn in, which is a direct contradiction to the goal of NeoLemmix-izing the levels for this pack. In my opinion, either the ABCABC order should be restored, or else the two hatches should not completely overlap, so that it's clearly visible that there's two there.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #71 on: June 03, 2020, 02:56:05 am »
Proposed fix for "It's all a matter of timing":



This fix (if accepted) will only be used in Redux. For my "NL versions of the original levels for challenges" project, I think I'll just leave the hatches untouched (so that they spawn in ABCABC order) since, as you say, this is the expected behaviour in a NeoLemmix version.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #72 on: June 03, 2020, 10:23:52 pm »
Is it accurate to assume the positionings of the two entrances are calibrated precisely, so that they effectively match exactly where the lemmings would be located had they been fallen and landed from the original entrance under ABCB ordering?

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #73 on: June 03, 2020, 10:50:26 pm »
Indeed. A lemming falls 3 pixels per frame, so moving a hatch (1,-3) or any multiple of that is equivalent to its current position, if the lemming lands on flat terrain. In this case, the two middle hatches have been moved (4,-12) and (-4,12) from their original position.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #74 on: July 16, 2020, 11:43:58 am »
It's been a while with no further posts, and Minim mentioned wanting to do a thread combining challenge Results for Redux, so I think it's time to get on with the final round of decisions and updates.

Firstly, should we add more levels to Redux? Since I proposed this, we've only had a couple of suggestions, so at this point I'm ruling out expanding the pack to 175 or 180 levels. Going up to 165 or 168 is still on the table (maybe even 162 if just one or two levels get championed strongly), but it's looking more likely than ever that we'll just stick with the current selection. Also, it's now confirmed that my retouches to namida's conversions of the official levels can go ahead and will be the new official versions, so that means any levels we leave out will still have an official version available.

Regarding specific levels proposed: WillLem proposed "Heaven can wait (we hope)" and "The ascending pillar scenario", and this made me check whether we currently have a level that requires using a digger pit to trap the crowd. I don't think we do -- at least not the straightforward type of digger pit and release typified by "Heaven can wait". However, Quirky 28 "Speed Trap" shows the use of diggers to separate a worker from the crowd; Zany 14 "Pitfall" requires a digger pit and is overall more complicated than "Heaven can wait"; a digger pit is the easiest way to solve Zany 26 "Across the Gap"; finally, Manic 13 "Upside-down World" has a talisman for saving 100%, requiring some trickery in containing the crowd -- and, as with "The ascending pillar scenario", this is especially difficult due to the limited space.

So overall I think that, while the two levels proposed are a little different from anything we have, I don't mind leaving them out. Similarly, namida's suggestion of "The Boiler Room" is a great level that I like a lot, but we do already have Zany 13 "Don't leave any Lemmings" to show reaching the exit by bombing through a ceiling.

Any more feedback, or should we just mark this as settled and stick with the current level selection?

Offline JRT

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #75 on: July 16, 2020, 12:01:31 pm »
I'll have a look at the pack currently but I'd agree with WillLem, "Ascending Pillar Scenario" is iconic Lemmings. I enjoy "Heaven can Wait" but I'd choose Pillar over this plus I'm toying with a sequel to Heaven myself.

"Boiler Room" is another well recognised level, my opinion is that we could include consensus fan faves even if they use similar tricks to some other levels.

I suppose it depends on how likely the old level pack would need continued support as the engines evolve? The idea of some levels being lost to time makes me sad. :crylaugh:

I'm looking forward to seeing what's been done with this pack.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #76 on: July 16, 2020, 12:06:50 pm »
I suppose it depends on how likely the old level pack would need continued support as the engines evolve? The idea of some levels being lost to time makes me sad. :crylaugh:

Namida has said that NL is working towards a final version, and already the engine is stable enough that I don't foresee much, if any, further maintenance work being required. I'm firmly committed to keeping both Redux and the full original level pack available as long as I'm around, so I don't think you need worry about any levels being lost (and in any case, the original games can still be played even if NeoLemmix were to disappear).

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My opinion is that we could include consensus fan faves even if they use similar tricks to some other levels.

Absolutely -- that's the principle the pack is built on. The trouble is the difficulty of establishing consensus -- even when we were first putting the pack together, it was a very slow progress to get people to post their opinions and put everything together; it is much, much harder now that the pack is complete and only a very few people are sufficiently interested to post opinions on possible changes.

Offline Minim

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #77 on: July 16, 2020, 03:28:29 pm »
Secondly, does anyone have any criticism of the current ordering? The one change I will almost certainly make, since I've asked for opinions on this during the LP and there seems to be consensus, is to move Manic 11 "Where Lemmings Dare" later within the rank, most likely switching it with Manic 31 "With a twist of lemming, please".

OK, taking a proper glance, if we want to make one more level switch, I'd agree with this one. All these traps relatively early on in the pack are rather unwelcoming.

Proposed fix for "It's all a matter of timing":



This fix (if accepted) will only be used in Redux.

I'm leaning towards disagree with this one. If we're going to make this change, we'll need to follow this process for all the other 3 entrance levels (Lunatic 6 "Which one are you trying to get" is another 3-entrancer I know of that has 4 windows, two in one place). Considering on Lunatic 6 that all these windows are at the top, "splitting" them to make them visible would actually look messy. Manic 26 "Triple Trouble" retains the three windows.

I propose a backroute fix for Lunatic 23: "The Great Lemming Caper". Bashing under the structure is I think getting too easy at this late stage. I remember playing an old Level Design Contest level "Bookworm Bite" which I think involved digging part of the structure to get a climber up to the top, which I thought was very clever. Anyway, here's my proposal (and talisman solution) attached below.
Musical fact: All of Tim Wright's compositions for Original Lemmings are 125 BPM.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #78 on: July 16, 2020, 03:54:09 pm »
OK, taking a proper glance, if we want to make one more level switch, I'd agree with this one. All these traps relatively early on in the pack are rather unwelcoming.

Yeah, that is pretty much 100% going ahead now, since it's been on the table for a while and no-one has objected. The only question is which level to swap with "Where Lemmings Dare". As I said, my preference is for "With a twist of lemming, please", but I'm open to new suggestions or votes for the alternatives -- for a short while. I would like to make a final decision very soon.

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I'm leaning towards disagree with this one. If we're going to make this change, we'll need to follow this process for all the other 3 entrance levels

No, we wouldn't. All 3-entrance levels have the problem that the original games expect ABCB ordering, but that doesn't mean we have to solve this problem for all levels in the same way. "It's all a matter of timing" is a special case because the puzzle depends on the relative spacing between lemmings, so it's important to preserve the ABCB ordering, and splitting the hatch is the best way to achieve this. There is no reason we would consider this for any other level.

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(Lunatic 6 "Which one are you trying to get" is another 3-entrancer I know of that has 4 windows, two in one place).

Thank you for pointing this out. I can't see any reason why the puzzle is improved by having half the lemmings coming out the middle hatch, so I will remove the duplicated hatch.

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I propose a backroute fix for Lunatic 23: "The Great Lemming Caper". Bashing under the structure is I think getting too easy at this late stage.

Firstly, it's not a backroute because it doesn't bypass the puzzle -- if you take that route, you still have to work out how to get back up after going down (and the trick to this is one of the most elegant in the original games). I also believe this is most likely the intended solution, although we'll never know for sure. Finally, the change doesn't enforce your solution since there are still solutions that don't involve going down to the bottom level at all. This has always been a level known for having a variety of interesting solutions, so there's no reason to privilege any one of them over the others, even if it were possible to do so.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 04:40:11 pm by Proxima »

Offline Minim

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #79 on: July 16, 2020, 07:43:09 pm »
OK, taking a proper glance, if we want to make one more level switch, I'd agree with this one. All these traps relatively early on in the pack are rather unwelcoming.

Yeah, that is pretty much 100% going ahead now, since it's been on the table for a while and no-one has objected. The only question is which level to swap with "Where Lemmings Dare". As I said, my preference is for "With a twist of lemming, please", but I'm open to new suggestions or votes for the alternatives -- for a short while. I would like to make a final decision very soon.

Yep. I totally agree with moving "With a twist of lemming, please" to Manic 11 in place of "Where Lemmings Dare".

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I'm leaning towards disagree with this one. If we're going to make this change, we'll need to follow this process for all the other 3 entrance levels

No, we wouldn't. All 3-entrance levels have the problem that the original games expect ABCB ordering, but that doesn't mean we have to solve this problem for all levels in the same way. "It's all a matter of timing" is a special case because the puzzle depends on the relative spacing between lemmings, so it's important to preserve the ABCB ordering, and splitting the hatch is the best way to achieve this. There is no reason we would consider this for any other level.

...

Firstly, it's not a backroute because it doesn't bypass the puzzle -- if you take that route, you still have to work out how to get back up after going down (and the trick to this is one of the most elegant in the original games). I also believe this is most likely the intended solution, although we'll never know for sure. Finally, the change doesn't enforce your solution since there are still solutions that don't involve going down to the bottom level at all. This has always been a level known for having a variety of interesting solutions, so there's no reason to privilege any one of them over the others, even if it were possible to do so.

Thanks for the clarifications. I understand now.
Musical fact: All of Tim Wright's compositions for Original Lemmings are 125 BPM.

Offline WillLem

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #80 on: July 16, 2020, 10:35:59 pm »
"It's all a matter of timing" is a special case because the puzzle depends on the relative spacing between lemmings, so it's important to preserve the ABCB ordering, and splitting the hatch is the best way to achieve this.

I know it's already been discussed, but whilst decisions are still being made, I'll just voice the opinion that splitting the hatches looks very messy and completely ruins the level's aesthetic. I understand why it's being done this way, but I'd strongly disagree that it's the "best way to achieve this."

Also, since one of the hatches is displaced horizontally, it affects the level's solution as well.

I'd suggest overlapping them again, but raise one slightly higher, by say... 4 pixels. This will reveal that there is another entrance hatch, but it will be in the same place and will be a lot tidier.

Anyways, other than that the rest of the pack seems fine to me. I'll just suggest the following levels for inclusion one more time, and then that's pretty much all I have to contribute. It's a great pack, and I think it's a good idea to bundle it with NL so new users have a pack to play immediately on downloading the platform, and one which makes it clear that NL promotes a particular game philosophy.

The Ascending Pillar Scenario (what JRT said)
Mary Poppins' Land (of all the levels that require backwards-building for safe landing, this is by far the most iconic and memorable)
Steel Works (you could limit the skillset and make the save req. 100% to make this more Redux-worthy)

WillLem out 8-)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #81 on: July 16, 2020, 11:30:32 pm »
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Also, since one of the hatches is displaced horizontally, it affects the level's solution as well.

It's displaced diagonally, not horizontally. The horizontal and vertical displacements exactly cancel each other out (in terms of time taken for the lemming to reach the end of the platform).

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I'd suggest overlapping them again, but raise one slightly higher, by say... 4 pixels. This will reveal that there is another entrance hatch, but it will be in the same place and will be a lot tidier.

...whereas that would affect the solution. And here's what it would look like:



I understand our tastes differ here, but I find the stacked trapdoors much uglier than my version. Considering that the trapdoor conceptually represents a hole in the ceiling of the level (notwithstanding how weird that is in perspective terms), it makes no sense to layer them so the holes overlap. In my version, the slats of some the trapdoors drop down in front of other trapdoors, but at least the holes are spaced out.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #82 on: July 16, 2020, 11:34:00 pm »
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Steel Works (you could limit the skillset and make the save req. 100% to make this more Redux-worthy)

Hard disagree. Aside from that change being a case of "going too far" IMO, it doesn't fix the main problem with Steel Works - that while it may have an interesting start and end, the middle is a blatant tedious builderfest. Removing the middle part would be even more so "going too far". Steel Works is simply a level that doesn't fit well for Redux.

For that matter, I'd say Ascending Pillar Scenario isn't much better. On the other hand, Mary Poppins' Land may be viable, as the building needed isn't too excessive; though I wouldn't say I feel too strongly about it - more just I wouldn't object to it.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #83 on: July 17, 2020, 09:43:40 am »
Okay. I think we should make a final decision about Havoc 12 before moving on, so I've put up a poll.

I am considering the following options (please read carefully before voting):

* Three hatches with ABC order: This is the most harmonious with the expected behaviour in NeoLemmix, and matches what we are doing with all other 3-hatch levels. It does change the solution, but the resulting level is still solvable and interesting.

* Duplicate the middle hatch in the same position (i.e. the currently published version): This is the most harmonious with the original level. The only downside is that it hides information from the player, but I personally consider this an acceptable form of hidden information as (1) it reveals itself very early in the level without the player having to do anything; (2) stacked hatches have been used so frequently that players may at least expect that it's something that can happen.

* WillLem's suggestion (see image above): This is a compromise if you believe that neither of the above is best and my suggestion is too ugly.

* My suggestion (see image further up the page): This is a compromise if you believe that neither of the first two options is best and WillLem's suggestion is too ugly.

* Drop the level entirely: Hey, since it's getting to be problematic and we do have suggestions for other possible inclusions, we could consider this. If this wins the poll, I'll run another poll to decide which level we replace it with (from the ones recently suggested) and this will almost certainly mean we stick with 160 levels and so only introduce one new one.

* Something else I haven't considered yet: Only vote for this if you have an actual suggestion.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #84 on: July 17, 2020, 08:23:42 pm »
I'll reiterate that I feel very strongly that overlapping them is not acceptable. While overlapping multiple entrances when they have a difference in skills and/or spawn direction is not unheard of, these give clear hints to the player that there's something going on, because the icons that indicate direction / skills overlap in a way that draws attention. Even that, after thinking about this case, I'm wondering how acceptable that is. When they're done purely for spawn order, there is no warning until the player watches what order the lemmings spawn in, and even this could be overlooked by a player who isn't specifically looking out for it.

My strongest preference would be either to retain the expected ABCABC ordering, or else to replace the level altogether. I'm fairly neutral between the two - I don't see this as a bad level that actively should be removed, but I wouldn't consider it a huge loss if it was removed either; doubly so if it comes down to "keep the level in a misleading form" vs "remove the level". Either offset option (with my preference of the two being the diagonal one) is okay too - they do look a bit awkward but they aren't misleading.

I will note that it being misleading is not purely a hypothetical / principle thing. My first attempts at this level for SYCLW failed because I had planned it around the expected spawn order, not realising that it had a hidden 4th entrance.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #85 on: July 17, 2020, 09:04:07 pm »
I take it, though, you wouldn't actually block us from going ahead with the change if that option does win the poll? There are other published NL packs with stacked hatches, and there are likely to be a fair number of them in my conversions of old Lemmix packs, which I still have as a back-burner project (Redux and the official levelpack conversions being my priority at the moment).

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #86 on: July 17, 2020, 09:15:44 pm »
I don't feel that overlapping hatches is a huge issue, and if the solution depends on it, it's probably best to go with overlapping. I would discourage it in new levels, but I have no issues with it appearing in older packs for compatibility reasons where necessary.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 11:11:36 pm by Dullstar »

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #87 on: July 17, 2020, 10:51:48 pm »
Although we've gone thru this before, I think only if it's an official or rehash of one as in the redux pack, then it should be abcb order otherwise any other custom level should NOT ever have overlapping hatches,  as custom levels are new to a player. But in official or rehashes of one then I think it should be allowed since that is how the lemmings were spawned in the official versions.
I know in Lix many of the 2 player levels have overlapping hatches to get the lemmings to alternate direction although they probably have different colors too.

But I think we should just let the people vote on it and accept THEIR decision as this is a community of lemmings players. No one person should override that. If the abc order wins then we go with that or if any other option wins, just go with that.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #88 on: July 17, 2020, 11:01:02 pm »
Just a reminder to everyone: By all means post to explain your position in more detail, but vote in the poll as well! The poll is how I wil judge how many people prefer each option, so if you haven't voted then you won't be counted.

Also, you can vote for more than one option if you like -- it's "Which of these do you consider acceptable?", not "Which is your top option?"

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #89 on: July 17, 2020, 11:28:56 pm »
I don't intend to outright block overlapping hatches, but should a "unfair content detection" feature become a reality in the future, expect overlapping hatches to be something it warns players about.

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I think only if it's an official or rehash of one as in the redux pack, then it should be abcb order otherwise any other custom level should NOT ever have overlapping hatches,  as custom levels are new to a player.

There is no reason why levels from the official game should have a special rule seperate from any other NeoLemmix level. If they require doing something like this, it simply means they're a bad fit for NeoLemmix and probably don't belong on it - though in this specific case, there are alternative options that could make it work while still fitting NeoLemmix conventions.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 12:33:17 am by namida »

Offline WillLem

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #90 on: July 18, 2020, 12:31:24 am »
I don't feel that overlapping hatches is a huge issue, and if the solution depends on it, it's probably best to go with overlapping. I would discourage it in new levels, but I have no issues with it appearing in older packs for compatibility reasons where necessary.

+1 for this - the second option is by far the best. I only suggested the 4 pixel displacement because it's a slightly more aesthetically pleasing solution to the "unfair overlapping hatches" thing (which, just to be clear, doesn't bother me in the slightest).

Dullstar and I are agreeing on loads of things these days! :lemcat: :crylaugh:

But I think we should just let the people vote on it and accept THEIR decision as this is a community of lemmings players. No one person should override that

I agree, but we can't ignore the fact that NeoLemmix is namida's baby, and so his opinion will ultimately have that bit more weight than pretty much anybody else's, whether intentionally or not.

I don't intend to outright block overlapping hatches, but should a "unfair content detection" feature become a reality in the future, expect overlapping hatches to be something it warns players about.

Maybe such a detection feature would solve all of these sorts of problems once and for all. Have we talked about this before...? Which thread was it in...?

There is no reason why levels from the official game should have a special rule seperate from any other NeoLemmix level.

I think the point is not that the levels being "official" makes any difference, but more the fact that the level already features a different spawning order prior to its inclusion in a NeoLemmix pack, and therefore the conversation needs to address whether said pack should keep, modify, or remove that particular feature of the level.

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #91 on: July 18, 2020, 12:51:54 am »
Quote
I think the point is not that the levels being "official" makes any difference, but more the fact that the level already features a different spawning order prior to its inclusion in a NeoLemmix pack, and therefore the conversation needs to address whether said pack should keep, modify, or remove that particular feature of the level.

It is not a feature of the level. It's a feature of some of the engines the level was officially playable on. NeoLemmix does not have this feature. Even if it were hard-written into the level (eg. the actual DOS / Amiga LVL file contained the hidden entrance), I would still feel that removing or exposing the duplication would be an important part of the "NeoLemmix-isation" of the level. This level is not intimately reliant on the ABCB order (it can still be solved and remains a similar feel with ABCABC), and multiple proposals to retain the "middle spawns twice as often" without directly overlapping the windows have been put forward, so it cannot be argued that it is required for compatibility.

It is also, in my view, very contradictory that in all levels that already had hidden objects this pack goes out of its way to expose them, yet adds an entirely new hidden object in this one (which previously did not contain any hidden objects).

It should also be considered that an explicitly-specified custom window order is another feature that was specifically culled; partly due to lack of use but it would not have survived the "cull the unfair stuff" phase either way for these exact reasons.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 01:04:10 am by namida »

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #92 on: July 18, 2020, 01:25:06 am »
Maybe such a detection feature would solve all of these sorts of problems once and for all. Have we talked about this before...? Which thread was it in...?

Here's the thread. It was started in response to a discussion of 3-hatch levels in NL conversions of the original levels, back when you were doing these conversions.

I note that you made a proposal then that hatches should have helper indications "A", "B", "C" etc to indicate order (presumably at the start of the level, at the same time the arrow for facing direction is displayed), which would not only solve the unfairness issue here, it would address the fact that hatch order is always hidden information when there are two or more hatches.

And no, an "unfair content detection" feature would not solve all these problems. Depending on how exactly the feature works, some authors would be okay with their content being flagged as unfair; others would say "Fine, you win, if this is going to throw up pop-ups whenever it's played then I'll just change it." In short, the likely end result is the same as if namida were to outright block release of any levels that don't meet his fairness standards -- which, yes, from one point of view would be a solution to the problem, but it's not the solution I want to see happen.

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #93 on: July 19, 2020, 12:52:39 am »
It is not a feature of the level. It's a feature of some of the engines the level was officially playable on.

Ah, that chestnut. Fair enough: in that case, the level should probably spawn ABCABC, because that's what NL does. I'm keeping my vote as the second option though, because that is genuinely what I feel would be best, and I don't think overlapping entrances is unfair. It would be better if there a visible way to represent them, of course, and here are some suggestions (some of which I'm sure I've made previously):

1) Make overlapped entrance hatches a different/darker colour.
2) Have spawning indications in CPM
3) Include spawning number/order/number of hatches as panel info (this would take up more space on the panel, but frankly it could probably do with a bit of an overhaul anyway - I'm not pushing this as an idea though, because there have still yet to be decisions made regarding the menu thing!)
4) Invent a character called "Helper Cat" who pops up (in a similar way to the old Microsoft Office Paperclip dude) and lets the player know stuff they need to know about the level :lemcat:

I note that you made a proposal then that hatches should have helper indications "A", "B", "C" etc to indicate order (presumably at the start of the level, at the same time the arrow for facing direction is displayed), which would not only solve the unfairness issue here, it would address the fact that hatch order is always hidden information when there are two or more hatches.

Thanks for reminding me! And yes - that's a good point: in a multi-hatch level, there is currently no way to know which hatch will spawn first, not to mention the order.

For example: a level could have 27 hatches, none of which are overlapping, so it's technically "fair", but the player has no idea which hatch will spawn next until all 27 hatches have spawned. Granted, a level with this many hatches may well be skipped because it has so many hatches, but yes: maybe having a spawn-order-indicator would remove the unfairness of overlapping hatches whilst also informing the player of spawn order.

some authors would be okay with their content being flagged as unfair; others would say "Fine, you win"... the likely end result is the same as if namida were to outright block release of any levels that don't meet his fairness standards... it's not the solution I want to see happen.

Me neither, for sure. I'm in favour of freedom of expression for creators being preserved as much as possible.

Can you elaborate a bit more on why "unfair content detection" would result in the same scenario as outright banning of unfair content, please? I'm not sure how it would be the same... ???

Personally, I'm in favour of an "unfair content warning" system: it allows creators to make whatever levels they want, and players can simply skip any levels that feature a warning (if they want to). The benefits of this seem quite extensive: it means that players won't skip an entire pack because of one "unfair" level - they can just skip that level, as well as being a way to put an end to (or at least limit) the recurring conversations about whether levels should or should not contain controversial content.

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #94 on: July 19, 2020, 02:01:32 am »
Information request (since changing votes is possible anyway):

1) How, specifically, does the spawn order affect the solution in this level?

2) Which ports use ABCB and which ports use ABC?

Reasoning: As I said, I don't have a problem with using overlapping hatches to mimic ABCB ordering where it's necessary for compatibility reasons with older content. But if this ordering is a quirk of a specific port and the level is not intended to rely on it, that might change my opinion.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #95 on: July 19, 2020, 11:26:26 am »
Can you elaborate a bit more

Sure, but I'll post in the other topic because this is moving away from the subject of Redux specifically.

1) How, specifically, does the spawn order affect the solution in this level?

2) Which ports use ABCB and which ports use ABC?

I've attached both versions so you can try them out. The general route is the same (build to land on the small pillars, then build to link them with each other and the exit) but the timing of the lemmings reaching danger is different.

I haven't played any ports of ONML other than the Mac, so my information is limited here, but I believe that the original (Amiga and DOS) game has ABCB order, the Mac version does, and I'm not aware of any that use ABC order. Namida has pointed out some ports of original Lemmings that do, but ONML had fewer versions in the first place.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #96 on: July 19, 2020, 08:38:16 pm »
From what I recall, Win95 / PS1, as well as any DOS versions that also have the higher fall distance bug, will have the ABCABC order on that level.

With all this being said, I'll stress my point isn't "let's go by what Version B does instead of what Version A" does, and even "official ports don't agree" is really more of a footnote.

My biggest reasoning is: NeoLemmix uses an ABCABC order for three entrances, always. This may not have been true in the past - but the feature that allowed for a different order was specifically culled. Therefore, if a player sees three entrances, while they currently would have to specifically let the game run in order to see which order the three spawn in, they should be able to assume that once the third lemming's out, they won't be caught out by a hidden 4th one. Doubly so when the major selling point of the pack is that it specifically adapts the levels to NeoLemmix. It just makes no sense that, while exposing every other hidden object, and otherwise bringing levels up to NL standards where they don't already meet them; in the case of this one level, steps are specifically being taken to take it away from NL standards.

(In hindsight, I should have avoided all this by adopting a Master System / L3D -like means of handling multiple entrances - in these games, all entrances spawn simultaneously - but it's far too late for that now, the damage to existing content would be way too severe.)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #97 on: July 19, 2020, 09:14:46 pm »
I see what you're saying, but in a pack where the aim is to make decisions on community consensus, it's hard to go against two votes that have both clearly favoured a different option. Also:

My biggest reasoning is: NeoLemmix uses an ABCABC order for three entrances, always.

That isn't really true. NL uses ABCABC order for three entrances unless there are stacked hatches to enforce a different order. And stacking hatches to enforce a desired order (or just to have more lemmings come out of one hatch than the other) has a long history, and there will be a lot of examples in older content that should eventually be ported to NL, since it's desirable to port as much older content as possible so that it doesn't have to be played on obsolete engines. (There may also be examples among content created in the NL era, although the only one I know of is "Tame Gone Wild", which is not a shining example, as the use there is very trollish.)

It's true that when porting older content, we could remove stacked hatches, maybe making whatever concomitant changes are necessary (as we did on "Triple Trouble", for example). But at the moment, there doesn't seem to be much reason why we should do this, since there does not seem to be a community consensus that stacking hatches is always unfair. This may change as debate on the issue continues.

So, I think what I'll do for now is end the current vote and move on to a vote for level inclusion. Who knows, we might still end up dropping Havoc 12 as a result of this vote :P

For the record, these are the standings of the Havoc 12 vote:
* Three hatches, ABCABC order: 3
* Duplicate the middle hatch without moving it: 6
* Duplicate the middle hatch and separate them: 1

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #98 on: July 19, 2020, 09:52:07 pm »
Quote
NL uses ABCABC order for three entrances unless there are stacked hatches to enforce a different order.

Incorrect. NL does not have any special handling for when multiple entrances overlap. What you are describing is a four-entrance level, which (as all four-entrance levels in NL do) has an ABCDABCD spawn order, with one of the entrances hidden behind another; not a three-entrance level.

Quote
there does not seem to be a community consensus that stacking hatches is always unfair.

There is consensus that hiding objects is unfair. I don't see why hatches specifically need their own seperate consensus from everything else.

Would you consider it fair to overlap multiple traps, so that it's harder / impossible to slip lemmings through via compression even though visually it looks like that's an option? Or to overlay multiple pickups so that the fact that the player gets more than the displayed count (and/or some other skills as well as the displayed one) is fair? I do not see any logic by which overlapping multiple hatches is different.

I could see an argument that exits (provided they don't have a lemming limit), water, etc are fair to overlap - because it makes no physics difference (though it could result in some minor graphical oddities - but not severe enough to obscure what's what, generally). However, for obvious reasons, they are also very pointless to overlap.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 10:04:53 pm by namida »

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #99 on: July 19, 2020, 10:01:27 pm »
The vote result shows that a decent number of people are willing to accept stacked hatches. You can ask why if you like (although please let's move the general debate out of the Redux thread) but that just seems to be how things are at the moment.

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #100 on: July 19, 2020, 11:56:10 pm »
Anyway, shelving this for now, let's get back to whether or not to (slightly) expand the pack. I've thought a bit more about this, and I think the best way to move forward would be to vote on the levels first, and then have a vote to make a decision on including more levels once we have a clearer picture of which levels we're seriously considering.

Please read carefully before voting: For this vote, I'd like everyone to imagine we're back in the early phase of putting the pack together, when we narrowed the selection of levels down by considering whether each one was worthy of being included, before we had very much idea of the total number of levels we would end up with.

So, I'd like you to vote yes/no on whether each level would be on your shortlist, and we'll see how things look once we have a decent number of votes. Also, if there's any other level you'd like to consider that hasn't been mentioned yet, feel free to bring it up -- this is the absolutely last chance to include any other levels in the pack.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #101 on: July 20, 2020, 01:47:58 am »
For me - Taxing 16, Taxing 18 and Mayhem 2 are all candidates. Mayhem 2 is the clear favorite of the three for me; I'm not sure which way around the other two would be.

Taxing 24 is somewhat interesting, and was borderline as to whether or not I selected it. Eventually it came down to - I'd rather not contribute to it distracting from three far better candidates here. I certainly wouldn't object to it though, I just don't see it as worth actively supporting. If it were included, it would need to be much closer to the start of the pack than it was in Orig, though. I think I would have thought similarly during the initial phase too, if we were conducting that now - that it's not a level that's a bad fit per se, but there's simply too many levels that are far better that I'd think it was a distraction, if that makes sense?

Wicked 4 I'm pretty neutral on. It's one of those "not particularly noticable, but that includes not noticable in a bad way" levels for me.

I personally don't think either Taxing 3 or Taxing 11 should be considered. However, I'd even more strongly say that if they are being considered, it should be on a "one or the other, not both" basis - and in such a case my preference would be Taxing 11, because it at least adds a little bit of extra stuff to do rather than purely just "build, build, build, don't run out of time". (And for Taxing 11, it could also be considered viable to remove the time limit; whereas I can't see that going down well for Taxing 3.) I would object to both, Taxing 3 a bit more so than 11, but not super strongly.

Which brings us to Mayhem 1, which is the only one on this list that I strongly oppose. The slightly interesting start and end do not make up for the tedious builderfest that comes inbetween, even when looked at only as a single level (rather than in comparison to several better candidates). A cut down version would be okay, but still not a particularly strong candidate - but the required cutting down would go far beyond what's generally being considered acceptable for Redux.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #102 on: July 20, 2020, 02:14:00 am »
I appreciate that the current vote is a bit simplistic in that it only allows saying yes or no, and not yes / neutral / strongly oppose, but I won't make any inclusion decisions just on the basis of this vote -- this one is mainly to see if we can eliminate some of the contenders from consideration, whether there are any that have particularly strong support, and whether there's enough overall support for additional levels to make it worth while continuing this line of inquiry at all.

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #103 on: July 20, 2020, 09:21:42 pm »
Steel Works only if the latter portion is significantly altered. (that is removing the entire build up to the exit in the tight corridor and danger of running out of builders in that way). Even if the exit was just on the bottom beyond the pool; it would be easier but significantly more fun.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #104 on: July 20, 2020, 09:40:29 pm »
Conversely, I think the build up to the exit is the most interesting part of "Steel Works" and the main reason for even considering it. The middle section is just straightforward building; the first part is quite interesting but there are plenty of other levels where the main challenge is to make a landing platform under a splat fall.

That said, with six votes so far and none in favour of "Steel Works", it's safe to say it will be bowing out at this stage. "Heaven can wait (we hope)" is in the same boat.

Offline WillLem

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #105 on: July 21, 2020, 03:54:02 pm »
Another quick shout out for increasing the number of levels in the pack, adding an extra rank, and decreasing the number of levels in each rank.

When LPing the first rank of Redux for the series, it felt waaayyy too long to be honest. Since it was the first episode and I was excited to be filming a full-length LP, I kind of overlooked this and so didn't mention it, but yes: 5 ranks of 26 (130) or 28 (140) would be better than 4 of 32 (128).

The best thing might be to have another look at which levels could be culled, and then have 5 of 25... buuut I get the feeling that means Mary Poppins' Land definitely won't be included, so go with 5 of 26 or 28! 8-)

Regarding the non-inclusion of Steel Works, that's fine... I suppose this and Nessy gives us reasons to go back to the original pack every now and then. ;P

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #106 on: July 21, 2020, 04:03:04 pm »
The current pack is 5 x 32 (160). If we increase the pack size, the main options are 6 x 27 (162), 5 x 33 (165), or 6 x 28 (168). We could go above that to 175 or 180 if we could find enough worthwhile levels, but since we just had an open discussion and only the ones in the current vote were suggested, I don't think that's a possibility any more.

And just to be clear: as soon as this vote ends, or if the result is clear enough to call early, we will have a vote on whether or not to increase the number of levels, so "shout outs" are unnecessary.

If the vote goes against increasing the pack size, then we'll have a final vote on whether to replace "It's all a matter of timing" with one of the front runners of the current vote, but other than that, culling any levels that are currently in the pack is absolutely not on the table. We went through a very long selection process, and one of the guiding principles all the way along was that in terms of establishing community consensus, everything said for or against a level, even across different stages of the discussion, still counted. Removing a level now (for any reason other than intrinsic problems, such as when we removed "Oh No! Squish!" due to unfixable backroutes) would not only be disrespectful; it would undermine the selection process and make it impossible to make clear decisions going forward.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 05:01:01 pm by Proxima »

Offline WillLem

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #107 on: July 22, 2020, 01:12:02 am »
The current pack is 5 x 32 (160). If we increase the pack size, the main options are 6 x 27 (162), 5 x 33 (165), or 6 x 28 (168).

OK, I'd suggest 6 x 28 then. Maybe even 7 x 24...

we will have a vote on whether or not to increase the number of levels, so "shout outs" are unnecessary.

My apologies - perhaps my choice of wording wasn't quite right. What I meant was that since the current discussion may lead to an increase in the number of levels in the pack, I felt it necessary to bring attention to the fact that doing so will also, by default, increase the number of levels in each rank. Since my opinion is that the ranks are already way too long at 32 levels each, it seemed relevant to include this point as a factor for consideration in the current discussion.

Removing a level now (for any reason other than intrinsic problems... would undermine the selection process and make it impossible to make clear decisions going forward.

Yes, I can see how that would be an issue. Since discussion regarding the levels has been opened up again, it initially seemed to make sense to include as many opinions regarding level selection at this stage as possible, especially now that Redux is bundled with NeoLemmix and therefore represents the current community.

However, if removing levels is already a no-go, then of course I agree on the basis of the reasons you presented (i.e. preserving previous decisions regarding the levels.)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #108 on: July 22, 2020, 01:24:54 am »
No, there's no default. The next vote will explicitly be between the options of 160, 162, 165 and 168.

They all have pros and cons. As well as the fact that 168 would require a bit more digging around to find suitable levels (although I do have ideas for that), going up to six ranks would require rethinking which levels go in each, with particular care at the end of each rank and the start of the next. I'll probably end up doing most of this work myself, since it would take a very long time to do it by consensus.

Another consideration that I only just thought of: six ranks would require six special graphics levels, presumably with "SUNSOFT Special" as the sixth (although since the pack currently treats "SEGA Four" as a special graphics level, adding "SEGA Five" is also a possibility). That means that 162 would only introduce one other new level, so that option would only really be worth considering if there was one level that had really strong support, which, at the moment, there isn't.

Another minor point: I don't have any really great ideas for a sixth rank name that fits nicely with the five we have. Of course, the extra rank name need not go at the end but could be slotted anywhere in the middle.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #109 on: July 22, 2020, 02:14:08 am »
Quote
adding "SEGA Five" is also a possibility

The only other SEGA level that's much of a worthwhile candidate would be the other version of SEGA Four.

Maybe a version of SEGA One or SEGA Two as an early-pack easy level could work, I guess - they're decent as early-game easy levels (but the repeats aren't much harder outside of a nasty time limit on one of them).

Another option is The Prima Publishing Level, though there isn't any obvious choice of special music to go with that one. I'd say The Covox Level isn't really unique enough, while The Apple Computer Level has obvious reasons against it.

One other option - is there any widely-liked L2 level outside the classic tribe that only uses (a subset of) the classic 8 skills? I wouldn't have suggested this originally, but given that the decision is long since made to include L2 classic levels, I don't see why a non-classic one (while still only using the classic skills) couldn't be considered for a special graphics level if a 6th one is needed.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #110 on: July 22, 2020, 02:37:04 am »
One other option - is there any widely-liked L2 level outside the classic tribe that only uses (a subset of) the classic 8 skills? I wouldn't have suggested this originally, but given that the decision is long since made to include L2 classic levels, I don't see why a non-classic one (while still only using the classic skills) couldn't be considered for a special graphics level if a 6th one is needed.

Interesting thought, but no. I had a look on The Lemmings Encyclopedia, and didn't find any levels (widely liked or not) using only the classic 8 skills. The closest is Caveman 1, which uses only stompers, builders and club bashers; but it has an object that (I'm guessing from the screenshot) flings the lemmings, which we can't replicate. In addition, nearly all L2 levels outside Classic are vertical scrolling.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #111 on: July 22, 2020, 02:11:02 pm »
Okay. The current vote is stable enough to call. "Heaven can wait (we hope!)", "The ascending pillar scenario" and "Steel Works" are rejected and won't appear in the pack or in any subsequent votes.

The other levels ("Mary Poppins' Land", "Tribute to M. C. Escher", "Take a running jump", "The Boiler Room" and "Oh No! It's the 4th Dimension") all got 5 or 6 votes out of 9 -- enough support for them to remain in contention, but not enough that any of them must be included.

Therefore I don't feel it's necessary to expand the pack beyond 160 levels, but it's certainly possible if enough people feel it's desirable. Thus, time for another vote 8-)

There are two orthogonal questions here. Firstly: should the pack have five ranks or six? At five ranks, it's been felt that the number of levels per rank is a bit high, so spreading them out among six ranks makes sense. The main downsides to six ranks are the work involved in coming up with a level ordering; choosing a sixth special graphics level (although we could choose not to have one) and finding a good rank name. Secondly: should we stick with 160 levels (or 162, if we go up to six ranks) or should we let in a few more?

Please note: If the vote ends up favouring adding more levels, I will spend some time going over the old Redux topic to look for possibilities, in addition to the ones involved in the previous vote; we won't just blindly add the top two, five or eight of this vote. In particular, if 168 is the winning option, that does not re-add the three levels that were just rejected.

Offline WillLem

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #112 on: July 23, 2020, 01:39:17 pm »
Official WillLem Suggestion:

6 ranks of 27
Replace Matter of Timing with 4TH DIMENSION
Replace Old MacDonald with Mary Poppins' Land
Add Running Jump and Boiler Room to bring the total levels to 162 8-)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #113 on: July 29, 2020, 01:54:51 pm »
Okay, time to wrap this up.

Eight people voted, which is fewer than I would like for such an important decision, but just about enough to give me confidence in making the call.

Six voted for keeping the pack at five ranks, which is a sizable majority, so that is the final decision. Five voted for a smaller number of levels (160 or 162) and the other three voted for both a fewer-levels and a more-levels option, so again, that's enough of a majority to call it for sticking to a smaller number.

So, we will stick with the current setup of five ranks, 32 levels each, and that is absolutely final from here on.

Regarding the recent discussion of possible levels to add if we did add some more: several decent suggestions came up, but none that stood out as must-haves, especially as it's now agreed that the official conversions of the full original levelpacks will remain, so all the levels excluded from Redux will still be maintained in NeoLemmix.

However, there's one possible inclusion/exclusion I want to settle with a separate vote, and then this discussion is completely wrapped up and we can move on to talismans (as well as other possible changes, if any). Of all the proposed inclusions, "The Boiler Room" stood out as having fairly strong reasons for inclusion, and ranked joint highest in the recent vote. "It's all a matter of timing" is the one level I would consider dropping, partly because it's not especially interesting as a puzzle; partly because it's problematic because of the stacked hatches (although the separate discussion topic seems to have reached a consensus that stacked hatches are okay, it's a bit weird to do this for just one level).

Obviously, there are arguments on the other side as well. In favour of including "It's all a matter of timing", it is substantially different from every other level in the pack, and it's interesting to have a builders-only puzzle. Against "The Boiler Room", there is a previous level ("Don't leave any Lemmings" from Genesis) showing bombing through a ceiling, so it lacks some of the shock value it had in the original game.

So, yes/no vote on whether we replace "It's all a matter of timing" with "The Boiler Room".
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 02:08:51 pm by Proxima »

Offline Minim

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #114 on: July 29, 2020, 05:35:07 pm »
If this is OK, I thought I might just add the downloads for these levels for everyone to try. Just be warned that there are steel bits lurking around the exit platform in "The Boiler Room", but with Clear Physics Mode on this shouldn't be enough of a nuisance.
Musical fact: All of Tim Wright's compositions for Original Lemmings are 125 BPM.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #115 on: July 29, 2020, 06:05:03 pm »
Thank you, that's a good idea. If we use "The Boiler Room" then I'll tidy it to meet NeoLemmix standards as we've done for every other level in the pack.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #116 on: July 29, 2020, 08:06:15 pm »
Quote
Against "The Boiler Room", there is a previous level ("Don't leave any Lemmings" from Genesis) showing bombing through a ceiling, so it lacks some of the shock value it had in the original game.

As I mentioned on Discord - I don't feel this is a particularly strong argument. "Don't Leave Any Lemmings" is a lot more clear in what needs to be done; "The Boiler Room" it's well hidden. Additionally, there are routes on DLAL that do not involve (at least, not intentionally) ceiling-bombing, at least not in any way that has a similar feel to Boiler Room.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #117 on: July 29, 2020, 09:30:54 pm »
Sure. Just doing my best to summarise all the arguments, strong and weak, so that I'm not favouring either side in the vote. It's interesting to see that it's pretty evenly split so far!

Offline WillLem

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #118 on: July 31, 2020, 12:56:08 pm »
It's a difficult one to call since these two are such different levels. Can you give more specific details, i.e. what will the save requirements / skillset be for each level, what changes will be made? It might be easier to vote if there's more info about what the final product will look like.

Incidentally, for Boiler Room I'd suggest including miners and making a 100% save talisman ;P


Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #119 on: July 31, 2020, 01:43:22 pm »
Sure, I can do that. I've attached the fixed version of "The Boiler Room" to this post. (For "It's all a matter of timing", either look at the current Redux pack, or Minim's post further up.)

"It's all a matter of timing", if included, will have no changes from the current version. It will keep the four hatches, with the middle two stacked, because this was the outcome favoured by two votes, and namida's separate discussion seems to have resulted in the outcome that a majority feel stacked hatches are okay.

"The Boiler Room" will have 50 lemmings (to save 40), no time limit, steel only where there is visible steel, and the fire traps along the bottom adjusted so that lemmings walking down the spikes burn rather than drop off the level. The skillset will be unchanged.

We will not add miners. I guess the suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, but to remind everyone: Redux is not a pack of derivative levels. It may sometimes seem that way with the changes we have made, but all the changes are either to NeoLemmix-ise the levels (e.g. removing time limits, removing unnecessary blockers) or to improve the playing experience (revealing traps, fixing glaring backroutes). A change that permits a solution that wasn't possible on the original level would not be okay, except where this is an unavoidable consequence of time limit removal -- and even then, we would take a serious look at whether the new solution was different enough that it might be worth making an exception and keeping the time limit on that one level.

Finally, I know you are keen on your 100% saves, but this being possible on all levels was never part of the original game and there's no reason it should be on Redux either. 100% on "The Boiler Room" was only ever possible with an unintended glitch.

I accept that at the moment, there is no level that really shows breaking through a ceiling with non-bomber destructive skills; if we felt it urgent to have such a level, we could have included Wild 9 "Ice Station Lemming" or Blizzard 7 "Break on through". But at this stage, I feel it's too late to consider either level, when we've just voted to keep the pack at 160 levels; those two levels lost out in the original selection process; and both are execution-over-puzzle types that would be unlikely to win a vote-off against any currently included level.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 02:03:05 pm by Proxima »

Offline Minim

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #120 on: July 31, 2020, 09:03:18 pm »
Sure, I can do that. I've attached the fixed version of "The Boiler Room" to this post.

Just played it now. Nice work! :thumbsup: However, the Author's name "Amiga Lemmings" wasn't filled in. That should be easy to fix. May I also suggest the direction of the entrance be changed to left instead of right. Otherwise good job.
Musical fact: All of Tim Wright's compositions for Original Lemmings are 125 BPM.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #121 on: July 31, 2020, 09:04:53 pm »
May I also suggest the direction of the entrance be changed to left instead of right. Otherwise good job.

That would make it harder to trap the lemmings with a builder wall, in case the player wants to do that.

Offline WillLem

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #122 on: August 02, 2020, 03:01:49 pm »
Quote from: Proxima
In favour of including "It's all a matter of timing", it is substantially different from every other level in the pack, and it's interesting to have a builders-only puzzle
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"It's all a matter of timing", if included, will... keep the four hatches, with the middle two stacked

I voted this way principally because I agree that it's good to have a builders-only level, and this is both an interesting puzzle and a great level to play pause-free. It does kind of stand out as a "naughty" level because of the stacked hatches thing, but as you've mentioned most of the community seem to be generally OK with stacked hatches, depending on how they're used.

The Boiler Room is a great level, though, and the Redux version of it is decent. So... either way is good, but I've voted Timing because I just have more solid reasons for thinking it should be included.

We will not add miners. I guess the suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, but to remind everyone: Redux is not a pack of derivative levels

Yeah, fair enough. Redux is not really a remix pack and I suppose what I'm suggesting constitutes a remix level. Redux is more like a remastered greatest hits :)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #123 on: August 05, 2020, 12:20:11 pm »
"The Boiler Room" wins 7-5 after a very exciting contest :P It was neck and neck for a long while, then TBR pulled ahead, then WillLem's vote closed the gap a little so I couldn't call it early, but still, a clear enough winner.

For fans of "It's all a matter of timing", I've made a decision. Not only will the level still appear in the NeoLemmix conversions of the full levelpacks, but since the ABC and ABCB versions are substantially different and both did appear in official versions of ONML, I will keep both as separate levels. (Right now currently leaning towards ABCB for Havoc 12 and the ABC version in Extra Levels, but that's a decision for later.)

So, to recap, the level selection and ordering are absolutely final now. We will keep to 160 levels, with "It's all a matter of timing" replaced with "The Boiler Room" and no other selection changes. Manic 11 "Where Lemmings Dare" and Manic 31 "With a twist of lemming, please" will switch places, with no other ordering changes.

All that's left is to make a final decision regarding talismans. I'll make another post going over the options and put up a poll later today.