- quite a few things to choose from on Rocky Road
- i don't remember which one would be most interesting, but i found a few things all of which i remember being quite tricky on Upside Down World
The only changes should be backroute fixes as you said, although what counts as a backroute is questionable - for example, is the Save 47 solution to "Save Me" a backroute? Also, is simply bombing through the thick wall in "The Steel Mines of Kessel" a backroute, instead of only bombing through the thin terrain and taking the low route? (I always saw this level as a 'think ahead' test rather than a brute force test - it would make the talisman more legitimate too since you'll have to manage the water pits)
Also, solutions that take longer than the original time limit should be looked at with care.
it seemed there was a consensus for leaving the blockers in "The Great Lemming Caper", necessitating having a talisman for not using the blockers.
- Take A Running Jump; I do like this level but backroutes are an issue. It would need significant changes to eliminate a certain well-known backroute.
- Take A Running Jump; I do like this level but backroutes are an issue. It would need significant changes to eliminate a certain well-known backroute.
Out of interest, which backroute?
Blocking off the way up to the top by sealing the one-pixel corridors with a builder, rather than building a splatform.
It's also surprising how much building you need to make the splatform safe, you pretty much almost have to start building as soon as the lemming finishes falling down the cliff, or your splatform apparently won't be quite high enough to stop the splatting.
if people actually want to include that level in Redux and yet you're really bothered by the seal-the-corridor route, you could consider changing save requirement to 100% so that the splatform must be done.
One possibility would be to have 6 ranks of 30, 180 in total, but again, that would require finding 20 new levels.
since really we would then be making our own level inspired by the original, and that's beyond the scope of Redux.
Adding an extra rank requires further discussion of how to spread the levels out between ranks; simply keeping the same overall order but changing the cutoff points could end up with rank starters / finishers that don't feel so appropriate for the position, etc.
If any pack enlargement does take place, I'd suggest this [6 x 30] would be the best way to do it as more & smaller ranks is better than fewer & larger.
To be fair, a lot of Redux levels seem to do exactly this by changing skillset, time limit, amount of lems, etc.
opening the pack up to the community once more (particularly now that it's bundled with NeoLemmix) and responding to feedback on what levels people would like to see included definitely seems like a positive thing to do. I'm communicating my thoughts in that spirit more than anything else.
On the one hand "Bomboozal" has been reduced from Taxing to maybe Fun difficulty due to untimed bombers, which makes replacing "A task for bombers" with it an interesting idea at least (you've still got "bomb" in the title for one thing), but on the other hand "A task for bombers" is better known as a tutorial level, so I'm not sure what to lean towards. Just a couple thoughts of my own.
Yes mine has all the music from each level as they are supposed to be, orig, ohno, holiday, genesis, psp, nes and I think even 1 zx spectrum level. I have a folder on my hard drive that has all the music for any lemmings game-dos, amiga, many others(got from various sources online).
if other people want this, I can upload the music. I even have music for 3d lemmings, revolution, all world of lemmings, adventures of lomax, the tribes (amiga, dos, SNES). All are in .ogg form because I use also for Superlemmini. But I won't upload unless others want since redux has a lot of music that would be played often like genesis. I don't mind that's why I changed mine, but others may. Thx Eric.
This is why I wish the neolemmix editor could some how read a music.ini file and you could put the levels and the musictitle in it.
"It's all a matter of timing" duplicates the middle hatch, after a vote was taken specifically on this level.
I suppose it depends on how likely the old level pack would need continued support as the engines evolve? The idea of some levels being lost to time makes me sad. :crylaugh:
My opinion is that we could include consensus fan faves even if they use similar tricks to some other levels.
Secondly, does anyone have any criticism of the current ordering? The one change I will almost certainly make, since I've asked for opinions on this during the LP and there seems to be consensus, is to move Manic 11 "Where Lemmings Dare" later within the rank, most likely switching it with Manic 31 "With a twist of lemming, please".
Proposed fix for "It's all a matter of timing":
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/598671586203271219/717566653508091934/havoc_12.png)
This fix (if accepted) will only be used in Redux.
OK, taking a proper glance, if we want to make one more level switch, I'd agree with this one. All these traps relatively early on in the pack are rather unwelcoming.
I'm leaning towards disagree with this one. If we're going to make this change, we'll need to follow this process for all the other 3 entrance levels
(Lunatic 6 "Which one are you trying to get" is another 3-entrancer I know of that has 4 windows, two in one place).
I propose a backroute fix for Lunatic 23: "The Great Lemming Caper". Bashing under the structure is I think getting too easy at this late stage.
OK, taking a proper glance, if we want to make one more level switch, I'd agree with this one. All these traps relatively early on in the pack are rather unwelcoming.
Yeah, that is pretty much 100% going ahead now, since it's been on the table for a while and no-one has objected. The only question is which level to swap with "Where Lemmings Dare". As I said, my preference is for "With a twist of lemming, please", but I'm open to new suggestions or votes for the alternatives -- for a short while. I would like to make a final decision very soon.
QuoteI'm leaning towards disagree with this one. If we're going to make this change, we'll need to follow this process for all the other 3 entrance levels
No, we wouldn't. All 3-entrance levels have the problem that the original games expect ABCB ordering, but that doesn't mean we have to solve this problem for all levels in the same way. "It's all a matter of timing" is a special case because the puzzle depends on the relative spacing between lemmings, so it's important to preserve the ABCB ordering, and splitting the hatch is the best way to achieve this. There is no reason we would consider this for any other level.
...
Firstly, it's not a backroute because it doesn't bypass the puzzle -- if you take that route, you still have to work out how to get back up after going down (and the trick to this is one of the most elegant in the original games). I also believe this is most likely the intended solution, although we'll never know for sure. Finally, the change doesn't enforce your solution since there are still solutions that don't involve going down to the bottom level at all. This has always been a level known for having a variety of interesting solutions, so there's no reason to privilege any one of them over the others, even if it were possible to do so.
"It's all a matter of timing" is a special case because the puzzle depends on the relative spacing between lemmings, so it's important to preserve the ABCB ordering, and splitting the hatch is the best way to achieve this.
Also, since one of the hatches is displaced horizontally, it affects the level's solution as well.
I'd suggest overlapping them again, but raise one slightly higher, by say... 4 pixels. This will reveal that there is another entrance hatch, but it will be in the same place and will be a lot tidier.
Steel Works (you could limit the skillset and make the save req. 100% to make this more Redux-worthy)
I think only if it's an official or rehash of one as in the redux pack, then it should be abcb order otherwise any other custom level should NOT ever have overlapping hatches, as custom levels are new to a player.
I don't feel that overlapping hatches is a huge issue, and if the solution depends on it, it's probably best to go with overlapping. I would discourage it in new levels, but I have no issues with it appearing in older packs for compatibility reasons where necessary.
But I think we should just let the people vote on it and accept THEIR decision as this is a community of lemmings players. No one person should override that
I don't intend to outright block overlapping hatches, but should a "unfair content detection" feature become a reality in the future, expect overlapping hatches to be something it warns players about.
There is no reason why levels from the official game should have a special rule seperate from any other NeoLemmix level.
I think the point is not that the levels being "official" makes any difference, but more the fact that the level already features a different spawning order prior to its inclusion in a NeoLemmix pack, and therefore the conversation needs to address whether said pack should keep, modify, or remove that particular feature of the level.
Maybe such a detection feature would solve all of these sorts of problems once and for all. Have we talked about this before...? Which thread was it in...?
It is not a feature of the level. It's a feature of some of the engines the level was officially playable on.
I note that you made a proposal then that hatches should have helper indications "A", "B", "C" etc to indicate order (presumably at the start of the level, at the same time the arrow for facing direction is displayed), which would not only solve the unfairness issue here, it would address the fact that hatch order is always hidden information when there are two or more hatches.
some authors would be okay with their content being flagged as unfair; others would say "Fine, you win"... the likely end result is the same as if namida were to outright block release of any levels that don't meet his fairness standards... it's not the solution I want to see happen.
Can you elaborate a bit more
1) How, specifically, does the spawn order affect the solution in this level?
2) Which ports use ABCB and which ports use ABC?
My biggest reasoning is: NeoLemmix uses an ABCABC order for three entrances, always.
NL uses ABCABC order for three entrances unless there are stacked hatches to enforce a different order.
there does not seem to be a community consensus that stacking hatches is always unfair.
The current pack is 5 x 32 (160). If we increase the pack size, the main options are 6 x 27 (162), 5 x 33 (165), or 6 x 28 (168).
we will have a vote on whether or not to increase the number of levels, so "shout outs" are unnecessary.
Removing a level now (for any reason other than intrinsic problems... would undermine the selection process and make it impossible to make clear decisions going forward.
adding "SEGA Five" is also a possibility
One other option - is there any widely-liked L2 level outside the classic tribe that only uses (a subset of) the classic 8 skills? I wouldn't have suggested this originally, but given that the decision is long since made to include L2 classic levels, I don't see why a non-classic one (while still only using the classic skills) couldn't be considered for a special graphics level if a 6th one is needed.
Against "The Boiler Room", there is a previous level ("Don't leave any Lemmings" from Genesis) showing bombing through a ceiling, so it lacks some of the shock value it had in the original game.
Sure, I can do that. I've attached the fixed version of "The Boiler Room" to this post.
May I also suggest the direction of the entrance be changed to left instead of right. Otherwise good job.
In favour of including "It's all a matter of timing", it is substantially different from every other level in the pack, and it's interesting to have a builders-only puzzle
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"It's all a matter of timing", if included, will... keep the four hatches, with the middle two stacked
We will not add miners. I guess the suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, but to remind everyone: Redux is not a pack of derivative levels
I have no preference whatsoever on total amount of talismans, either overall or per-color. Consider quantity my vote to be for, exactly whatever number of worthwhile candidates are brought up.
{8} Haven't done this one yet, because with just two builders and also that you can't use bombers because of 100%, that's a tough order even if you do know where the builders should go.
* Chill out! - No climbers
* Acrophobia - Save 100% or no diggers
* No justice for the hero - Save 100%
* Lemmy in the cold, cold ground - No bashers or no miners
* Going Their Separate Ways - Max 20 skills
{8} Haven't done this one yet, because with just two builders and also that you can't use bombers because of 100%, that's a tough order even if you do know where the builders should go.
Sorry, you've misunderstood. The proposed talisman for ROCKY ROAD is "Solve the level with maximum 2 builders". The note "this would be in addition to the existing 'Save 100%' talisman" means that I am proposing both talismans should exist (even though this would then be the only level in Redux with more than one), not that I am suggesting a talisman with both requirements!
(Indeed, the level's current result for "What skills do you need for 100%?" is 5 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, strongly suggesting that 100% with only 2 builders is impossible. That's for the DOS version, but I expect the NL result would be the same or very similar.)
Other than that, thank you for some great feedback! :thumbsup:
If going for a low-builders talisman on The Boiler Room, I would set it at 7 rather than 6. Cutting out that extra builder is mostly just a matter of "do everything pixel-precise". The overall approach doesn't change. "Save 49" implies no blockers anyway; because you cannot solve it without at least one bomber, and have no other way to free blockers, so I'd think a "no blockers" talisman borders on pointless here.
So - I would say either "Save 49" as a Bronze, or "7 builders" as either Silver or Gold, I'm on the fence as to which. Leaning a bit more towards Silver.
I have no preference whatsoever on total amount of talismans, either overall or per-color. Consider quantity my vote to be for, exactly whatever number of worthwhile candidates are brought up.
* No justice for the hero - Save 100%I got this one now. Yes, this is worthy of being a talisman. Silver, I'd say.
* SNOW JOKE - 1 basherOnly if there's no other similar talisman already. Bronze.
* Worra load of old blocks - No diggersFrom memory, this was really finnicky, I'm not sure if it's the best idea?
* ROCKY ROAD - 2 builders (this would be in addition to the existing "Save 100%" talisman)I'd think it's a bit weird to have exactly one level with multiple talismans, unless it's special in some other way (such as being the final level). However, on a "one or the other" basis, I'd say go with 2 builders, and it's not even close - 100% is not very difficult at all (certianly not worthy of gold!); on the other hand, 2 builders would be a great gold talisman.
* Steel Block Party - No buildersThis is absolutely brilliant! Yes, definitely, and I'd say this is worthy of gold.
* Be more than just a number - Save 100%Neutral on this one. Bronze.
* Fix the road, quick - Save 100% with 10 buildersSure. Silver.
* SEGA Four - No climbersNo climbers is kind of a frustrating timing one. I suggest no diggers as a more interesting possibility - I could see it going either way between Silver and Gold. You could further make this "no diggers, save 19", I'm not sure how much value the save 19 adds here.
* With a twist of lemming, please - No climbersNo, too fiddly.
* Temple of Love - Save 29/30Sure. Silver.
* Save Me - Save 45/50Sure. Bronze or maybe Silver.
I need to check ROCKY ROAD, since namida (in discord) implied that it's possible to save 100% with only 2 builders, which seems improbable.
I also realise I haven't mentioned a colour for the "Acrophobia" talisman in one of my original posts. I don't see this as gold at all, but a silver seems more reasonable. After all, it's only a "one way to get down without a skill" puzzle. Also, it shouldn't be higher than the "Temple of Love" talisman because the former's route is eventually "hold and release" while the latter's is one of those "impeding death" types. So yeah, "Temple of Love" must be gold, and "Acrophobia" silver.
It makes me a bit sad that this is getting so little participation... the question of talismans is obviously messy and most people don't seem to mind
I also need to look over the levels one last time and make some small adjustments -- for instance, during one of the recent challenge sessions, namida noticed that a water object left a 1-pixel gap with the adjacent steel. I want to look over all the levels and make sure that any remaining issues like that get fixed. Then I will be able to release the absolutely final version of Redux. Since Christmas is just a week away right now, that seems like a good day to aim for.
Thank you again to everyone who took part. It's been a long road to get this far, but we are very close to the end :thumbsup:
There are repeat levels in the pack that arguably don't need both versions to be present, and I'm sure that there are other levels which could be seen as filler in the wider context of this pack...
There are only a very, very small number of repeat levels in the pack. From memory - I think the only repeats were "It's Lemmingentry, Watson", "Postcard From Lemmingland", "Come On Over To My Place", "No Added Colors Or Lemmings" and "The Steel Mines Of Kessel"? And if you count it as a repeat, "Just A Minute (Part 2)".
I'm not sure what you mean by "the NeoLemmix Standard", to be honest... I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but maybe it would help if you tried to explain what you mean?
In that spirit, here's a quick overview of what a new player would learn from each Gentle level:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The update for Lunatic 11 "Fix the road, quick" also includes a better X Screen Start position for high res players.
Agree with changing in general, though I do disagree with one particular example you've given - "Don't leave any lemmings", I think it should remain right-facing on this one. The "natural" route would be to go right first, then come back to the left and go under.
..."Don't leave any Lemmings" is supposed to be a right-entrance level despite the right-left layout. It makes more sense to bomb the right side of the starting platform to give the lemmings a safer drop.
G27 "Quest for Kieran" -- Currently flipped. Unflipping it would allow delaying the crowd by mining on the starting platform instead of the large mound, which was possible on the original, so maybe flip back for that reason?This is a pretty trivial difference from doing it on the mound, and I think overall the level feels nicer with them going left.
Q6 "Just a Quicky" -- Feels weird to flip when the trapdoor is so close to the terrain just to its left. What does anyone else think?Do not flip. If flipped, they will not be contained, as they land just on the barrier of the holding area. (Much like what you mention for Q8.)
Q17 "Mr Lemmy Lives Next Door" -- same as Q9, flipping the trapdoor would be a hint, so leave.Not to mention that there are solutions that send a climber to the right first. :)
Z6 "Compression Method 1" (all trapdoors) -- Leave unflipped because flipping would be a hint?Disagree with reasoning, but ultimately agree with decision. It is obvious you have to go left here - there is a fatal fall, off steel (can't reduce the fall) with no floaters or builders (can't survive / avoid it), to the right. However, going right gives options relating to using the first trapdoor to free the second (or to free all the others in some cases), and from there I think for this level it would look weird to not have all four facing the same way.
Z8 "Lemmy in the cold, cold ground" (right trapdoor) -- Leave unflipped because the player may want to bash/mine rightwards.Also because unflipped has them actually going towards the exit. :P
M24 "The race against cliches" -- A weird case as the intended solution involves lemmings going both ways. Exit is on the far left. I'm not sure how I feel about this one.The exit is to the left, and most lemmings go left (though not necesserially right away). I get the feeling that, if DOS mechanics were "always spawn facing left" instead, we'd think that changing it to right-facing is a hint on this one. I think all things considered, left remains the right direction to spawn here, though I'll definitely agree that it's a closer call than most.
L8 "Lemming about town" -- Exit is on the right but you need to climb left. Leave?Agree, leave unflipped.
L16 "SEGA Four" -- Unproblematic.I have a slight feeling that this one should remain unflipped, but can't quite put my finger on why.
L17 "Creature Discomforts" (right trapdoor) -- Some solutions involve the right-side lemmings climbing the far right wall. Leave for that reason?As far as I can tell, you'd usually need to block near the entrance anyway, as you don't send all of them up right away? If so, I see no problem with flipping it.
L22 "Hello John! Got a New Lemming?" (right trapdoor) -- Flipping the right trapdoor would hint that a climber from this trapdoor should be sent left (I think it's actually possible to use a climber from either trapdoor?). Leave, especially as the right trapdoor's exit is to the right.While either way around makes sense, I kind of feel that the two entrances on this level should have opposite directions to each other. That is - either both go towards the direction they send a climber, or both go towards their exit.
Q1 "PoP YoR ToP"I'd lean very slightly towards flip. EDIT: Actually, after further thought, yeah, I would definitely say flip.
Q21 "The Long Way Around"Flipping feels right to me here, but this is another close call, and I would be okay with either outcome.
Q22 "The Far Side"Flip.
Q23 "Emmings! (No L)"It feels right to leave as-is, but this is another one where I don't have any particularly strong feelings either way.
M18 "The gate trap Lemmings."Flip the right entrance.
QuoteQ23 "Emmings! (No L)"It feels right to leave as-is, but this is another one where I don't have any particularly strong feelings either way.
QuoteQ23 "Emmings! (No L)"It feels right to leave as-is, but this is another one where I don't have any particularly strong feelings either way.
That's interesting, because currently the top trapdoor is flipped but the bottom one is not, and that must have been your decision at some point? ;)
* Quest for Kieran: [...] Should this be considered a backroute and fixed (maybe by reducing the number of builders to 2)?
* Everyone's a hard nut: Since this is a Genesis level, it was designed to have a solid ceiling. Should we add terrain in the top-right corner to stop a climber dying if he hits the ceiling there?
* You need bashers this time: As well as reducing lemming counts, we reduced the skillsets on many early levels, for instance trimming the Tame levels from 20 of each to 10 of each. This was mostly done because 20 of each, with the reduced lemming counts, would produce unusable bombers on levels that didn't originally have them, but it does suggest that we felt skillset economy made the levels feel more NL-like. "You need bashers", however, still has an excessive supply of 50 bashers. Should we reduce this to 20?
* Quest for Kieran: ...I noticed that on Amiga and DOS ... it is not possible to cross the gap with 3 builders alone without losing any lemmings, whereas on NL it is. Should this be considered a backroute and fixed (maybe by reducing the number of builders to 2)?
* Everyone's a hard nut: Since this is a Genesis level, it was designed to have a solid ceiling. Should we add terrain in the top-right corner to stop a climber dying if he hits the ceiling there?
* You need bashers this time: ...still has an excessive supply of 50 bashers. Should we reduce this to 20?
"You need bashers this time": I will reduce the bashers to 20. This might have a slight effect on the fastest time, since if you set the RR to 99 at the beginning and spam bashers all the way, it takes 21 -- but since the level doesn't require 100%, it's fine to let one lemming turn around, and the fastest time will only be slightly slower. In any case, preserving the fastest times is really not important at all.
I couldn't find any solution of Manic 12. Can somebody help me, please?
I have read several comments about that level and I know that you have to use some technical tricks in order to get the talisman, but I still can't see it.
The replays by Proxima were very helpful for me, but I couldn't find any solution of Manic 12. Can somebody help me, please?