Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] Skills you can't live without  (Read 8535 times)

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Offline namida

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[NeoLemmix] Skills you can't live without
« on: January 23, 2020, 01:26:57 am »
Most of us know how this challenge works, but for those who don't - the goal is essentially to find the minimum quantity of each skill that the level can be solved with. The key thing here that differentiates this from "minimum skills" is that each skill is considered separately - for example, if a level can be solved with 1 builder + 99 bashers, or alternatively with 99 builders + 1 basher, the ultimate result is "1 builder + 1 basher", because those are the separate minimums for each individual skill.

Only skills assigned count towards the total: lemmings with pre-assigned skills do not, and obtaining a pickup skill does not subtract from the total.

Similar to Proxima's max-saved topic, we'll start with Lemmings Redux.



Lemmings Redux

Lemmings Redux - Gentle (click to show/hide)

Lemmings Redux - Quirky (click to show/hide)

Lemmings Redux - Zany (click to show/hide)

Lemmings Redux - Manic (click to show/hide)

Lemmings Redux - Lunatic (click to show/hide)



Dodochacalo's packs

DoveLems - Plain (click to show/hide)

DoveLems - Coward (click to show/hide)



Geoffster's packs

GeoffLems - Fun (click to show/hide)

GeoffLems - Tricky (click to show/hide)



Namida's packs

Doomsday Lemmings - Outbreak (click to show/hide)

Lemmings Plus I - Mild (click to show/hide)

Lemmings Plus I - Wimpy (click to show/hide)

Lemmings Plus I - Medi (click to show/hide)

Lemmings Plus I - Danger (click to show/hide)

Lemmings Plus Omega - Breezy (click to show/hide)

Lemmings Plus Omega - Puzzling (click to show/hide)



Pieuw's packs

PimoLems - Calm (click to show/hide)

PimoLems - Windy (click to show/hide)



WillLem's packs

Lemminas - Magical (click to show/hide)

Lemminas - Sensational (click to show/hide)

Lemminas - Tricksy (click to show/hide)

Lemminas - Pandemonium (click to show/hide)

MiniLems - Fun (click to show/hide)

MiniLems - Tricky (click to show/hide)

MiniLems - Taxing (click to show/hide)

MiniLems - Mayhem (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 06:00:13 am by Proxima »

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Skills you can't live without
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2020, 01:29:22 am »
Some of the replays for my Gentle results (I've only included ones that are fairly interesting):

Gentle 9 "Get A Little Extra Help", no builders
Gentle 15 "Darkness Of The Royal Family", 3 builders
Gentle 16 "A Beast Of A Level", no builders
Gentle 19 "Where Do You See Lemmings?", no builders
Gentle 23 "Pillar Talking", 5 builders
Gentle 25 "The Crankshaft", no miners
Gentle 31 "Doomsday", 2 builders
Gentle 32 "Going Their Seperate Ways", no climbers + 2 floaters

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Skills you can't live without
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2020, 01:36:55 am »
An improvement already - found a 1-floater solution to "Going Their Seperate Ways". (The previous replay is still useful, as this replay does use climbers; the 2-floater replay doesn't.)

EDIT: And now, found a no-floater solution.

I'm not 100% confident in my result for "Darkness of the Royal Family" yet either. I don't think it can be improved, but I could see myself being wrong here - there might be a 2- or even 1-builder solution out there (I'm 100% sure there's no zero-builder solution).
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 01:48:59 am by namida »

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Skills you can't live without
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2020, 02:08:48 am »
And here it is: Darkness of the royal family, 1 builder 8-)

Online WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Skills you can't live without
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2020, 04:20:48 am »
EDIT: And now, found a no-floater solution.

Please can you explain this challenge further. What is the significance of mentioning a skill if none are required? For instance, I can solve Just dig! with no gliders whatsoever!

if a level can be solved with 1 builder + 99 bashers, or alternatively with 99 builders + 1 basher, the ultimate result is "1 builder + 1 basher", because those are the seperate minimums for each individual skill.

So... if a level requires 99 builders, the goal is to reduce this to as close to 1 builder as possible...? ???

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Skills you can't live without
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2020, 04:55:19 am »
Quote
Please can you explain this challenge further. What is the significance of mentioning a skill if none are required? For instance, I can solve Just dig! with no gliders whatsoever!

Just Dig doesn't give gliders, so that's a bit silly to mention.

Essentially, think of it as doing a seperate minimum-skills run for each skill (within the limits of the level's actual skillset - eg: you can't say "I can solve Just Dig without diggers, by using a basher instead", because Just Dig doesn't give you any bashers). This is something you should keep in mind in general - unless the challenge rules specifically say otherwise, it's assumed that the level's normal skillset, save requirement and time limit still apply. (An example where they didn't would be the "what levels could be solved with 1 of each skill" challenge - that challenge specifically stated that the normal skillset is ignored, and instead is replaced with exactly 1 of each skill.)

Using "Going Their Seperate Ways" as an example:

1. The "normal" solution uses 10 climbers, 10 floaters and 4 builders. So, we can use these as a starting point.

2. I then found a solution which solved the level with no climbers, 2 floaters, and 10 builders. We look at each skill individually:
2a) "No climbers" is an improvement over "10 climbers". Our record for climbers is now 0. (It doesn't matter that we used some floaters and builders here; because we consider each skill seperately.)
2b) "2 floaters" is an improvement over "10 floaters". Our record for floaters is now 2.
2c) "10 builders" is not an improvement over "4 builders", so our record for builders is still 4.

Now our "skills we can't live without" is 2 floaters + 4 builders. (No climbers - this is implied by them not being mentioned at all.)

3. I then found another solution, this one solving the level with 10 climbers + 10 builders, no floaters used.
3a) Climbers is already at zero, we can't improve this any further.
3b) "No floaters" is better than "2 floaters", so our record for floaters is now 0.
3c) We still haven't improved on 4 builders.

Thus, ultimately, our result: just 4 builders. We could solve the level in several different ways, but every possible solution uses (at least) 4 builders - there's no known solution with 3 or fewer builders.

Specifically mentioning that I found a no-floater solution was significant, because this no-floater solution was an improvement over the existing record for floaters (which was 2 floaters).


Often, a level - especially an X-of-everything level - can be approached much more simply than this. Take for example "Turn Around Young Lemmings". I found a solution that only used bombers, and then I found a solution that only used builders. The bomber-only solution uses 0 builders, the builder-only solution uses 0 bombers, and both solutions use 0 of everything else - just like that, the result is found: "None". You of course can't solve the level without using any skills at all, but there is no specific skill you're required to use.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 05:00:20 am by namida »

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Skills you can't live without
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2020, 05:57:44 am »
1. The "normal" solution uses 10 climbers, 10 floaters and 4 builders. So, we can use these as a starting point.

Actually, the normal solution needs 5 builders, because even if the first lemming is a floater and the next ten are all climbers, the floater doesn't have time to bridge all the gaps before the next floater arrives. Do you have a 4-builder solution?

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Skills you can't live without
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2020, 06:50:38 am »
1. The "normal" solution uses 10 climbers, 10 floaters and 4 builders. So, we can use these as a starting point.

Actually, the normal solution needs 5 builders, because even if the first lemming is a floater and the next ten are all climbers, the floater doesn't have time to bridge all the gaps before the next floater arrives. Do you have a 4-builder solution?

Oops, I wasn't aware of this. Then the requirement is 5 builders. I did try a few things but no, it indeed doesn't seem that 4 builders is doable.

I tried a couple of things towards it:
- Having two lemmings work on the path. RR 66 for one lemming (either the first or the second) then RR 50 again, make the 2nd climb, and 3rd becomes the second worker; he'll make it across the bridge, but then the first worker will fall into the gap. (All gaps are equal length, I checked.)
- Assigning a floater to the 12th lemming immediately when he comes out of the entrance. This does add a slight bit of extra delay, but it isn't even nearly enough.
- Doing the first builder from near the entrance, instead of after falling. It falls 2 pixels too short.

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Skills you can't live without
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2020, 07:33:08 pm »
Confirmed that my Lemmix no-bomber solution to It's Lemmingentry Watson also works (with some minor tweaks) on NeoLemmix. Like on Lemmix, it still doesn't allow saving 100%, because you lose the digger despite not bombing him.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Skills you can't live without
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2020, 12:48:21 am »
namida and I had a lot of fun today racing each other to set records for this challenge 8-) We made it up to Quirky 19 before namida got called away, and I did the next three levels on my own. I've attached a few replays for some of the more interesting challenges:

Quirky 4 (Go for it!) no basher
Quirky 11 (DON'T PANIC) no basher
Quirky 16 (MENACING !!) 3 builders -- the main "skills you can't live without" topic has 4 builders, but that's based on the DOS version. Redux uses the Genesis version of this level, with a smaller gap in the middle.
Quirky 18 (One way or another) 6 builders

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Skills you can't live without
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2020, 01:21:49 am »
Here's my interesting replays from today's session.

02 "It's Lemmingentry Watson", no bomber (also posted above)
03 "Vacation In Gemland", 1 basher
03 "Vacation In Gemland", no diggers
04 "Go For It!", 2 builders
04 "Go For It!", no miner
06 "Just A Quicky", 1 builder
12 "Over The Wall", 2 bashers
15 "Plethora of Presents", 2 bashers
18 "One Way Or Another", builders-only

Online WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Skills you can't live without
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2020, 02:18:37 am »
Quote
Please can you explain this challenge further. What is the significance of mentioning a skill if none are required? For instance, I can solve Just dig! with no gliders whatsoever!
Just Dig doesn't give gliders, so that's a bit silly to mention.

It is silly, but I enjoy silliness; It helps me to make sense of things! :lemcat:

Thanks for the detailed explanation Namida, I fully understand this challenge now; essentially finding the minimum skill(s) and their relevant quantities that are required for every known solution. :thumbsup:

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Skills you can't live without
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2020, 04:38:21 am »
I may not have been able to get results quicker than you, but I can at least improve one of your results. :P

Quirky 22 "The Far Side", no basher. :)

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Skills you can't live without
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2020, 10:18:18 pm »
I started on LPI for this as well, since Proxima wasn't up to doing more Redux the other day. Finished Mild off today, here's the results:

Mild 10 "Take Your Time" - 10 climbers
Mild 12 "On The Pier" - 1 builder
Mild 19 "Up To Where They Go" - 1 builder
Mild 22 "Blow Down" - 6 bombers
Mild 27 "The Quarantine" - 2 builders
Mild 28 "The Descending Pillar Scenario" - 1 builder
Mild 30 "You Just Lost The Game!" - 1 builder

All others - None

Replays attached for no builders on Mild 21, no builders on Mild 29, and one builder on Mild 30. No builders on Mild 26 was Proxima's achievement. The rest are relatively simple and shouldn't need replays, but ask if you want any.

EDIT: And Proxima found no builders on Mild 30 - a huge oversight on my part.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Skills you can't live without
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2020, 10:23:59 pm »
Replay for Mild 26 (No Salvation) no builders.

This won't work on later No Salvations as it uses 9 bashers, but with some modifications, the route could work with fewer -- not sure exactly at what point it will stop working. Separately, I have a 1-builder solution that will work on all five levels, but I didn't save a replay of it.