Poll

Which of these two levels should be in the pack?

Havoc 12 "It's all a matter of timing"
5 (41.7%)
Mayhem 2 "The Boiler Room"
7 (58.3%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Voting closed: August 05, 2020, 01:56:08 pm

Author Topic: Lemmings Redux  (Read 5743 times)

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Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2020, 09:43:50 pm »
namida and I, with help from DireKrow and WillLem, have finished looking through Lemmings Redux for the "skills you can't live without" challenge. We've also (with help from ccexplore) looked through the pack for the max saved challenge.

This has confirmed that there's nothing major that requires fixing, so I stand by my decision that the 18/1/20 revision is final, except for a couple of small things:

* Now that we've decided on changes to trigger areas of traps in the official styles, the trap used in "Electric circuit" can be moved up one pixel so it's more visible (which was, after all, the main reason for the trigger area change!)
* We may want to add more talismans. The max saved and SYCLW challenges include a lot of individual challenges (every skill type on every level), so we have to be careful not to go overboard, but we definitely found some interesting solutions along the way, and some of them might be worth including as talismans. I'll ask for opinions here especially from the people who took part in the challenge, but anyone is welcome to give feedback.

I'll leave this for a while until I've had time to look over our results before I can give my own opinion on adding talismans.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2020, 10:10:38 pm »
Copy/pasted from Discord:

- something on Going Their Seperate Ways, there's a few options here. no floaters was quite messy IIRC, but no climbers might be a bit more interesting
- Snow Joke with 1 basher maybe? although it's a bit on the tedious side
- Worra Lorra Old Blocks with no digger
- quite a few things to choose from on Rocky Road
- i don't remember which one would be most interesting, but i found a few things all of which i remember being quite tricky on Upside Down World
- Watch Your Fingertip, 100% might be a good talisman
- With A Twist Of Lemming Please, no climber
- Fix The Road, Quick - a builder limit, maybe not necesserially 8 (that's a bit messy) but 9 or 10 perhaps?
- Sega Four, no climbers - purely because this is a heavily climber-dependent level so the "whoa, you can do that?!" value of it
- Lemmings' Ark, 1 climber

Also - Acrophobia, 3 builders. (I achieved 2, but 2 is basically just an insanely optimized variation on 3 - and 3 is still gold-worthy as it is, IMO.)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2020, 12:22:46 am »
I had a go at all of the above today, and solved most of them. Replays attached. (Note: I haven't ruled out talismans other than the ones in namida's post; I'm just looking at these first. In particular, max saved results and my own SYCLW replays may provide some worthy challenges.)

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« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 12:33:28 am by Proxima »

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2020, 03:44:35 pm »
Got the two I was missing.

Worra load of old blocks (no diggers): Only just achievable, but not that demanding in execution. Could well be a silver talisman.

SEGA Four (no climbers): The specifics of the terrain near the exit allow a much more skill-efficient trick here, saving enough skills for the rest of the solution. This is a good talisman (probably also silver).

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2020, 03:59:47 pm »
We currently have 36 talismans, and there are definitely at least five from the list above I am interested in adding (Going Their Separate Ways, SNOW JOKE, Worra load of old blocks, With a twist of lemming please, SEGA Four) so I think we will go past 40, in which case the next "nice" number to aim for is 48. That doesn't seem unrealistic, as the max saved challenge and my own contributions to SYCLW will provide other ideas.

Since I like the bronze-silver-gold split to consist of "nice" numbers as well, there are two main options I'm considering: keep the current 1:2:1 ratio (so, 12 bronze, 24 silver, 12 gold) or go for 8 bronze, 24 silver, 16 gold. I think I'll decide first on exactly which talismans we are adding, then choose one of these ratios and then consider the rank of each talisman, but feedback on both the selection and ranking is welcome at any point.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2020, 08:19:54 pm »
I was going to post this in "Talisman Ideas", but that got locked, so here we are.

"Flow Control" is an obvious candidate for RR talismans (if they were to be re-added); both "solve without changing the RR from its initial value" and "solve at constant RR 99" are interesting, difficult challenges that require puzzling out how they might be achievable, not just repeating the usual solution with more fiddly execution.

However, that is only one level, so I agree with namida's assessment that this talisman type will probably continue to have low usage and not be worth re-adding. In any case, "Flow Control" already has a talisman for saving at least 15 (and in fact, the initial-RR solution achieves this).

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2020, 10:39:06 pm »
Another possible candidate, if boosting the numbers is desired, is of course fewer diggers on I Am AT. I don't suggest making a talisman for 8 - that relies on a LOT of precision - but the same general concept could be done, with a bit more leniency, with perhaps 10 to 12 diggers.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2020, 11:43:52 pm »
How come multiples of 8 is a "nice" number for total number of talismans here? ???  (Or is it just multiples of 4 for each of gold/silver/bronze?)

Offline DireKrow

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2020, 12:14:28 am »
Highly divisible numbers are aesthetically appealing.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2020, 12:18:36 am »
Well, the simple answer is that it fits with Redux having 32 levels per rank.

I remember that at some point, probably in my teenage years, I did an experiment. I had noticed that when it came to things like tempo markings in my musical compositions, I would choose the nearest "nice" number to the tempo I wanted, where "nice" meant a number like 32, 40 or 48 -- I couldn't exactly put my finger on what made some numbers "nice" and others not, but I instinctively knew which numbers were "nice" to me. So I drew up a list of "nice" numbers up to about 200 and tried to see if I could find a pattern.

It turned out that my "nice" numbers were almost exactly the practical numbers -- numbers such that any smaller number can be represented as the sum of some of its factors, so they must have a prime factorisation with predominantly small primes. I was very happy to discover that my aesthetic sense had a hidden mathematical basis :P

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2020, 09:08:29 pm »
- quite a few things to choose from on Rocky Road
- i don't remember which one would be most interesting, but i found a few things all of which i remember being quite tricky on Upside Down World

ROCKY ROAD already has a talisman for 100%, which eliminates bombers and blockers. Each destructive skill is fairly easy to eliminate separately, and I wouldn't consider any of these talisman-worthy.

2 builders, however, is very hard -- it's obvious enough where the builders go, but then you have to work out the skill allocation for the rest of the route, with the final linchpin being that the crowd should not be controlled, but kept out of danger by bridging the gaps while they are heading back towards the left.

I would consider this level the strongest argument so far for occasionally allowing multiple talismans per level.

I'll have a look at Upside-down World later.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2020, 01:27:47 am »
Upside-down World already has a talisman for 100%, which can be done with or without the blocker, but "100%" and "no blocker" are closely enough related that I wouldn't have a talisman for both.

No digger is trivial, and "1 basher" and "1 miner" are fairly simple rearrangements of the normal solution.

No builder is a little harder, requiring a trick with the one-way wall. No climber is the really interesting skill reduction; I don't think I would drop "save 100%" in favour of "no climber", but if we allow multiple talismans per level, we could definitely have both (and I would rate both as silver).

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2020, 01:31:22 am »
If 100% vs No Blocker are closely related enough, but No Climber would just be a second silver: Would having "no blocker" instead of "100%" (thus allowing a lose-1 blocker route) be Bronze-worthy, without losing too much of what makes the talisman interesting?

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2020, 01:59:02 am »
I guess so, but is there a reason against having two talismans of the same standard on the same level? (The two I'm considering on ROCKY ROAD, "save 100%" and "2 builders", would both be gold if we have both.)

I've started going over results from the max saved challenge, and solving for myself the results contributed by namida and ccexplore.

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« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 02:15:48 am by Proxima »

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2020, 11:02:15 pm »
Okay, the talisman update isn't ready yet (I still need to match ccexplore's max saved results and then take a look over my own SYCLW achievements), but since roundthewheel is playing Redux at the moment, I decided to slip in a small update.

* Lunatic 15 "Evil whisper": Enlarged the long vertical steel area to prevent a backroute.
* Lunatic 16 "SEGA Four": Changed the music to the title screen music from the SMS version (provided by namida).
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 11:48:48 pm by Proxima »