Lemmings Redux [Easy-Medium]

[Proxima]

Welcome to new-formats Lemmings Redux!

If you're new to the Lemmings series and want to get to know the levels that started it all, or if you played the games a long time ago and want to revisit your childhood memories, this might be the pack for you.

Lemmings Redux is a compilation of 160 levels, selected and edited by the community, that are representative of the best of the original Lemmings games. We've cut out most of the levels that had you hold back the crowd and do a lot of building, and the ones that were all about difficulty of execution and timing those pernicious walking bombers. With more regret, a few levels that were fine puzzles but don't work as intended under NeoLemmix mechanics also had to go. The remaining levels have been arranged into a pack that can be played just like one of the original games, starting with simple but fun levels to ease you into the game, and ramping up to fiendish puzzles near the end.

The levels have also been improved and edited. We know these changes won't please everyone, but we've tried to find the best balance between faithfulness to the originals and streamlining the playing experience. Time limits have been removed (except when the time limit is an essential part of the level), lemming counts reduced, hidden traps revealed, and so on. We've also fixed backroutes on some levels, so that the player has to engage with the puzzle, hopefully leading to a greater appreciation of some of the beautiful solutions

All aspects of the pack, from level selection and ordering to the smallest changes, have been decided on by group discussion -- no wonder that it took us 18 months to finish putting the pack together! Early on, bsmith and namida were responsible for coordinating the discussion and compiling the pack according to group consensus; after namida's departure, I took over this role.

Lemmings Redux contains 160 levels, in five ranks of 32 levels each:

Gentle


Let's go to the moon!

Quirky


Haunted botanical garden

Zany


Mutiny on the Bounty

Manic


ROCKY VI

Lunatic


The Great Lemming Caper

Enjoy!

[Proxima]

Attached here is the "sunsoftspecial" music, used by Lunatic 16, Sega FOUR. All other levels use the default tracks.
(Note: Lunatic 16 now uses the "smstitle" music, which is included with NeoLemmix.)

I've made a few changes to the pack since the last version, and I want to get forum feedback on these before we decide that the pack is ready to be included in the NeoLemmix Installer.

Firstly, Manic 11, Oh No! Squish was replaced by Havoc 17, Where Lemmings Dare from ONML, for reasons I went into in this discussion topic. (In short: Oh No! Squish has backroutes that may be unfixable, and Where Lemmings Dare is a well-liked level that may have originally been left out of the Redux pack accidentally.)

I've added four new talismans, bringing the total up to 36:
* PoP YoR ToP: Solve with only bombers
* Where Lemmings Dare: Save 100%
* Water processing plant: Save 100%
* I am A.T.: Save 100%

This has caused some difficulty, since I strongly feel that the talismans for Water processing plant and I am A.T. should be gold, but I also wanted to rank Creature Discomforts back up to gold (which it was originally, and was demoted just because we wanted to have an 8-16-8 split). But that would give the pack 11 gold talismans, and I preferred to have either an 8-16-12 or 8-18-10 split.

So, on discord, Nessy and I have been considering a few different options, but we can't decide between them, so I would really like it if more people gave their opinions on this so we can come to a rough consensus. If necessary, I'll put up a poll.

* Promote Where Lemmings Dare to gold for 8-16-12 (this is the current state of the pack);
* Promote a different silver talisman to gold; Nessy suggests The Great Lemming Caper;
* Demote Cascade to silver for 8-18-10.

[Minim]

BTW this is the first time I'm playing the redux: Great job! I like most of the levels on there and most of the talismans are pretty good too.

Here are some of my opinions for talismans, i.e. the bottom three bullet points:

* In agreement to promote Where Lemmings Dare to gold.
* I personally think that either the Beast level or It's hero time should be promoted to gold instead of The Great Lemming Caper. The former because I was stumped, and the latter because I consider climbers to be as valuable as builders. A no-climber solution is also rare in Lemmings levels that usually require them. Mayhem 7 (Which as far as I know, only works in DOS mechanics) is one of my favourite examples. For the Caper level, I use the no-blocker solution every time I'm asked to solve it. Despite the eye-catching solution, there's too little effort required to get gold.
* Unsure about the demotion of cascade to Silver. I can't remember if I did this or not but one thing is for certain, the 99 release rate doesn't help with the execution, particularly with trapping the lemmings. Looking at the level though, it looks pretty obvious what the solution should be. If there's no consensus however keep this level at gold. Even saving 11 lemmings in Cascade is also quite a challenge.

I also think Quirky 32 should go up to silver, personally because there are so many groups to deal with with so little time. I found the Gentle 11 talisman too easy for silver, because it's only one obstacle, even though the trick needed is pretty impressive to watch. So I'd demote that to bronze.

[Proxima]

The first question is whether to promote Where Lemmings Dare or The Great Lemming Caper. If we promote WLD, then the 12 slots are filled and promoting another level is not on the table -- unless you propose that we promote WLD and one more level and demote Cascade.

In other words, the question is, assuming WLD stays gold, which of these three most deserves to be gold (bearing in mind only one can be): A Beast of a Level, It's hero time or Cascade? It's not clear from your post how you would answer that, so I need a clear answer before I can count your post as a vote. Of course, everyone else is welcome to give their opinions too.

* * *

At the other end, it's certainly possible to promote Quirky 32 (And then there were four) and demote Gentle 11 (Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming), since doing both keeps the numbers the same. Does anyone else think we should do this, or does anyone disagree?

[namida]

I've decided to have a go at all of the talismans under discussion to see what I think of them. I'm not going to focus too much on the numbers, more what I think each one individually should be, but I will list these from easiest to hardest IMO, so feel free to take that into account.

Quirky 32 "And Then There Were Four"

This is not a difficult one, it's mostly just a matter of multitasking. Aside from a little bit at the start, you only really need to focus on two groups at any given time, as taking care of them will make a safe path for the others anyway. NeoLemmix features make it easy to undo mistakes, and you've got plenty of surplus skills. This is definitely a bronze.

Gentle 11 "Keep Your Hair On Mr Lemming"

I spotted the solution almost right away, but I did rely on a fairly advanced trick for this (the digger-blocker trick). It's definitely very hard relative to the level's normal solution, so I feel silver could be justified here.

Manic 11 "Where Lemmings Dare"

This one involves a bit of precision, but it isn't particularly hard relative to just solving the level in the first place. I'd say it's a solid silver.

Lunatic 1 "It's Hero Time"

I don't know about anyone else, but for me, this was a slight variation on how I originally solved this level. Though I do understand that my solution isn't a particularly common one. I'd say this works as Silver.

Quirky 31 "Cascade"

It's a bit hard to judge this one objectively. It definitely is a lot easier under NeoLemmix, I'll give it that. But the solution is well known now, and at the same time, this level almost has an infamy for being difficult but possible to 100% that can cloud judgement - but I do ultimately think, silver is right for this, though gold is not completely unjustified.

Lunatic 23 "The Great Lemming Caper"

I'd say this one's slightly harder than Cascade. It's another one that could go either way, but leaning a bit more towards Gold this time. The reduced availability of destructive skills is a factor here - with the original counts, I'd put it slightly easier than Cascade, due to the possibility of using some of these spare skills to help set up the timing.

Gentle 16 "A Beast Of A Level"

This one is really hard, and took me by far the longest of any of these. There's so many things that seem like they might work but don't, which adds to this one's challenge. I'd very strongly say this one is worthy of Gold.

[Proxima]

Thanks both of you for your input, and Nessy for input given on discord. I've also gone back to the original Redux topic to see what was said about talismans there, since some of the contributors aren't around at the moment, but their feedback should still be taken into account.

Putting what everyone has said together, I think we are very close to a final decision, but I'd still like to wait a little longer to see if anyone (especially Minim) has anything else to say.

Bronze talismans will stay as they are -- And Then There Were Four remains bronze, Keep Your Hair On, Mr Lemming remains silver.

Also, A Beast of a Level will be up-ranked to gold.

We then need to choose one more gold, from the other four levels in namida's post. Right now, my personal inclination is towards Cascade, but The Great Lemming Caper is a strong contender, and Where Lemmings Dare isn't out of the running.

I don't want this to take too much longer to decide, so please everyone get your thoughts in

[Minim]

I'm in agreement with Proxima that Cascade should go up to gold.

As for Gentle 11, I was basically talking about an alternate solution that doesn't use the blocker, but looking at my method again, I've realised how obscure that solution is as well, so I'm going to change my mind and agree that it stays at silver.

[Proxima]

Thank you. Okay, I think we have enough for a final decision.

I take Minim's post as withdrawing his vote for Where Lemmings Dare, since I stated that only one of the three can be gold; so WLD is out of the running with no-one really being in favour.

That leaves just Cascade and The Great Lemming Caper, and votes in this topic are split 2-2 between those, so taking previous feedback into account as well, Cascade wins and will remain gold. (Also, I have two additional reasons for this decision. I think veterans tend to underestimate the Cascade 100% talisman, because we are all familiar with the solution now; but it really is difficult for new players to work out. The Great Lemming Caper has a very elegant solution, but it also has hacky solutions such as turning one lemming around so he goes in the holding area on the left, making it less worthy of gold in my eyes.)

I've updated the zip in the first post with these decisions. I believe the pack is now ready to be included in the automatic installer. Huge thanks to everyone who helped to bring us to this point!

[chrisleec728]

"Chill out" is also somewhat backroutable, as is MAYBE "Steel Block Party".

[Proxima]

Chill out: If you're talking about the no-climber solution, that's a challenge, not a backroute, as it's harder in both concept and execution than the intended solution. It could have been a talisman, but we're not adding more talismans now.

Steel Block Party has two different solutions and I am not enforcing either one as we don't know which was intended:

Spoiler

1. Make a 3-bridge wall under the hatch.
2. Use diggers just in front of the basher to lower his path so he passes under the steel.

[chrisleec728]

Yeah, I think I read that about "Steel Block Party" in a different post; I used the second solution. I can't imagine how you could solve "Chill out" without a climber; the way I solved it DID involve one, but it still felt very much like a backroute (I think I know the intended solution).

Spoiler

I had the first lemming dig and then bash at a certain point. Then I had a second lemming turn around while the first was still bashing. The second lemming then built to the exit. After the second lemming came out of the hatch I then raised the release rate to 99 and all of the rest of the lemmings just barely turned around before the first lemming finished his tunnel. Finally I made the first lemming a climber as soon as he turned around.

[Swerdis]

Solved it today. A great and not too difficult pack. I was surprised how well i reminded the solutions of the old Lemmings 1 and ONML-levels, all in all. I had the most fun with the Genesis and PSP levels, though, for they were new to me. Didn't bother to get all the talimans - maybe later. All my solutions can be found here.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Vidusaka

[Proxima]

Fix for "Let's go camping", hopefully once and for all this time. The zip in the first post has also been updated.

[Proxima]

Lemmings Redux has been updated once more (zip attached to the first post), and this is the definitive, final version unless a major bug turns up that requires fixing.

Changelog:

* Removed moss from steel on the following levels: One way or another; The Far Side; And then there were four; Where Lemmings Dare; Jump down; Over the wall. (I have not done this identically to namida in the conversions of the original level packs. I have left some moss along the bottom of the steel, especially in "One way or another", where namida preferred to put it all behind the steel. This means some pixels are non-steel in the Redux version, but with no real effect on the gameplay.)
* "ONML" changed to "Oh No! More Lemmings" in the author field of levels originating from ONML. (Let me know if I missed any.)
* Levels have been cleansed.

I'm pleased to report that the fix for "Let's go camping" seems to be robust. Even joshescue has sent a replay of the intended solution!

[WillLem]

Enjoying this pack, here are my replays for Gentle.

Mostly 100% saves and got a few Talismans! Can't quite figure out how to save 50 for the Talisman on 30 Turn around, young lemmings! though...