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Offline namida

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[DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« on: November 21, 2020, 12:15:36 am »
This topic was created around the time of the first public release of a new-skills experimental build.

For any general discussion of your opinions on the new skills, potential uses or substitutes for them, etc, please use this topic. This may include sharing levels you have made with the new skills.

Do not use this topic for bug reports or suggestions to change the skills. Create a new topic for those, tagging them as appropriate.

Please post levels in the New Skills Levels topic.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 05:38:58 am by namida »

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2020, 12:23:37 am »
And to start this off, here's a couple of levels that I've made so far.

( EDIT: Attachments removed, get them in levels topic: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5227.0 )
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 05:39:15 am by namida »

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2020, 12:24:57 am »
Here's my first new-skills level 8-) Already on version 3 after backroutes by IchoTolot and namida!

Online Gronkling

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2020, 03:41:42 am »
My opinions from a graphics/design rather than game-play viewpoint, just throwing out my ideas
  • Slider - This one fits 100% perfectly in line with other skills
  • Laserer - A laser seems too futuristic compared to other skills. A fun idea I had would be to make it just be a lemming yelling really loudly, with the sound acting as the laser, though this might be hard to visualise. Something like a water cannon or hosepipe is another idea to think about as a more original lemming-y feeling laser that can be visualised more easily.
  • Grenadier - To me this one feels the most out of place, again it too hi tech, but also too 'dangerous' feeling for a lemming. I think it'd be fun if they threw a piece of their green hair rather than a grenade, which would match the exploder skill and nuke in that lemmings are strangely explosive. A different approach would be using grenades, but simpler ones made of wood or dirt or something.
  • Spearer - I think this one fits well since they're similar to builders etc.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2020, 09:48:23 am »
After briefly playing around with them over the last 2 days here is my stance:

1.) I'm ok with all 4 making the final cut.

2.) My preference list would be: Laserer --> grenader/spearer --> slider. So if a skill needs to go my vote is still placed on the slider as during my testing around this is still the skill I can replace the easiest or is the least flashy. On the other hand I would still be ok with it existing and would still use it. It's just if we can't have all it wouldn't get my vote.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2020, 11:14:18 am »
Alright, here's my first level (I had this idea in mind for a while), and two ways to solve it.

The first solution involves two Laserers and doesn't use the Spearer. The second solution replaces the first Laserer with two Spearers, with the Shimmier landing on top of those spears to fence instead. Note that one Spearer is not enough, because the Shimmier will shimmy into the spear and slide down instead (given that it's also a Slider).

Note that the replay using the Spearer still requires one Laserer to free the Blocker at the end. Doing this with another Fencer would require an additional Builder to connect to the wall, plus an additional destructive skill to remove that staircase again later on.

The Spearer solution is a 100% solution. This is because the Spearer causes the Slider to turn around an additional time, thereby preventing him from walking off into the water and dying.

There you go: Interactions of the new skills! :thumbsup: The Spearer improves the solution even further!

All four new skills have to stay in my book!


PS: Yes, I'm aware that the Spearer allows you to backroute the level as it currently is, by simply using it to break the fall on the right side. ;) I just put it into this level to allow for both solutions. If all the skills do indeed remain in the stable version and this level can thus become an actual level, I will obviously make further changes to it to either enforce the Spearer use at the right spot, or go with the 2-Laserer solution instead (i.e. not providing any Spearers).
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Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2020, 11:44:01 am »
...and here's another one using the Grenadier as well!

Turning around Sliders anywhere you want just by using a Builder is a really nice thing to have.
Especially when they're also Climbers, so that you can't simply place a Stacker in front of them as with regular lemmings.

Note that the pioneer lemming would die at the end of this solution if he weren't a Slider. Because he's a Climber as well, which would cause him to go over the stack he placed for the crowd, and walk into the trap.

Some curious cases about this level, I just want to clarify whether this is intended:

- When a Climber-Slider reaches the top of a wall and falls back down again, he slides. This is great to break a Climber's fall, of course (not relevant in this level), but is it intended? How is this handled in Lemmings 2: The Tribes? I thought a Climber bumping his head would always turn back into a regular Faller? (Not that we would have to stick to L2 behaviour, of course. As long as the Slider turns around when reaching a "closed" wall at the bottom, so that he doesn't get stuck in a loop of going up and down the same wall, everything is fine.

- You can try out the nuances about this "does the Slider turn around or not?" depending on where you place the Stacker on the stairs on the left side of the level:
Stack on flat ground and the Slider will turn around when reaching the bottom of the stack.
Stack in such a way that the stack is protruding over the staircase, and the Slider will have his feet in the air when reaching the bottom of the stack. He will thus turn into a Faller briefly, still looking into the direction he was facing while sliding, and walk back into the direction where he came from (in this case, into the trap).

- When a Slider slides into the water pool and is also a Swimmer, he immediately hops out of the water again, because sliding causes him to face the shoreline. :thumbsup:


PS: If you use the Grenadier close to a wall, it technically acts very similar to an L2 Bomber (=the one that doesn't kill the lemming, because the original Bomber has been renamed to Exploder in L2). Very useful to have / know as well! ;) Almost two skills for the price of one.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 11:52:49 am by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2020, 01:47:43 pm »
Icho has done some thinking!

While I still have the opinion that from the new 4 skills the slider is the weakest, I can see it making a bunch of situations more conveniant that involve multiple tight turns. While they all can be be subsituted more or less easily in some combination by other skills, as I could try to show here again and again, I think all 4 skills have their reasons to stay and my energy is used better elsewhere. ;)

That would still leave the problem of the workload of finalising the implementation, the added complexity and maintenance of those skills.

That lead me to the following thought: Why don't we cut down on new things somewhere else? ???

The answer here are the new objects we are discussing about:
https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4772.0

Namida stated there:
Quote
...I am willing to add more than one...

So why not having just 1 additional object type and as a result keep those 4 skills in which coding work was already invested! ???

Another big reason here is:

- New skills usually brought in more new levels than new objects!

I have seen more shimmier levels already than splitter or one-way field levels! I have even seen more disarmer levels!

Also, I think new skills are easier to introduce to players!

New objects have to be reached and experimented with first while skills can just be assigned and experimented with from the get-go. On top of that, new design guidelines for a new object type must be developed and actually followed to make the object as clear as possible and even after that it is not so clear that new players will get them from the start.

Generally I consider the entry complexity load from new objects greater than the one from new skills.
Skills are more "easy to lean hard to master" types while objects can struggle a lot more with the initial hurdle but after that lacking the overall depth of skills.

So why not keep all 4 new skills and as a compromise cut down on the new objects? ???

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2020, 01:53:35 pm »
I have forgotten to attach my new solutions to namida's and Proxima's levels. :P

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2020, 02:16:03 pm »
I fully agree with everything IchoTolot has outlined in his second-to-last post! :thumbsup: (Well, except of course that I have always liked the Slider from the getgo, but since we're both endorsing the "keep all four skills" position now, in the absence of "skill-slot scarcity", we won't have to argue about the Slider anymore :P .)

I've been maintaining for the longest time that the main problem with Lemmings 2: The Tribes was not the abundance of skills itself (even though the game is infamous for that), but
a) the redundancy of some of them (Basher / Club Basher being the most glaring example) and
b) the execution difficulty, especially for skills involving the fan (which we don't have in NeoLemmix anyway, so that problem is irrelevant)

I don't see any redundancy with the skills we have in NeoLemmix so far. Not even for Laserer vs. Fencer - and if somebody wants to make that case, I'd still consider Stacker and Stoner as having much more overlap than those two. And yet, Stacker and Stoner have been a staple of NeoLemmix for many years now, and the community has found enough cases where the difference between them is indeed very much relevant.



So I'd definitely rather have more skills (that is, all we have now in the latest experimental, not "more in addition to those" ;) ) than new objects.

In fact, I could do without most of the objects that are being proposed in that new-objects thread. Of my favourites, only 2-3 are remaining as possible contenders. But I'll outline those in the appropriate thread.
My packs so far:
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Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2020, 02:39:05 pm »
Looks like that's it for my first level. I can accept Icho's solution, which uses the main trick, and even shows off another interesting trick with the new skills that I didn't intend; but I can't see any way of fixing Armani's without breaking the intended solution.

I guess it just goes to show how powerful the new skills are :P

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2020, 06:26:10 pm »
Since others are already giving their opinions of the new skills, I will too, with the obvious caveat that this may change as I spend more time playing with them.

The spearer and grenader are huge fun -- for some reason, it is really satisfying to see the projectiles flying around, and to construct solutions where lemmings in one place affect things in another place. The two skills complement each other really well; spearer is the more versatile of the two, but the grenader is not far behind and also has a very interesting unique use case, being able to release a blocker without having to give the player any of the line-based destructive skills. In short, both skills are great and I'd love to keep both.

However, I still feel the arc is too broad, making these skills a bit too powerful, which will be a continuing nightmare from the backroute-prevention point of view. My preference would be roughly what I suggested earlier: same height, about 3/4 of the current width. But if they make it in with the current arc, they are still great skills and I'll be happy to use them.

I don't like the laserer at all; I just can't think of anything interesting to do with it. Its two main uses -- digging diagonally upwards, and affecting ceilings from a distance -- are covered by the fencer and grenader respectively. I still think a steeper laserer (such as 3:1) would be more interesting. But I guess we're not going to get to play with that possibility now.

The slider is still the best of the new skills :P

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2020, 06:49:52 pm »
I was skeptical about the Laserer at first, too, fearing that the angle might be too flat. But now, seeing it in direct comparison to the Fencer (especially with the two different solutions for my level Microcosm, where you can see the Fencer comes out of the wall quite a bit lower), I don't think any longer that it's a problem: For any case where I want to apply the Laserer in its traditional L2 manner, i.e. more akin to an upward Digger, the tunnel is still steep enough. Because the Fencer only has a 2:1 ratio, the Laserer a 1:1 ratio (=45°).

Regarding projectiles, I'd agree that the Spearer is more useful than the Grenader, but maybe I'm just personally more creative (pun intended :P ) with the former. I'm with IchoTolot though that a long horizontal range (as it currently is) is what makes this skill useful. Especially when working within the confines of a "classical Lemmings level", which does not include vertical, but only horizontal scrolling. Having a steep arc for the projectiles is just not nearly as useful as a longer horizontal rage in those standard and very frequent cases. Indeed, I think this is the case you're making: That this horizontal range makes the projectiles [i}too[/i] powerful. I would argue that we will probably just have to learn to limit their location of applicability by making them pickup skills, if need be - just like with any other skill.

That is, unless we get no-assignment fields on top of that, of course. ;)

Quote
The slider is still the best of the new skills

Here, in contrast, I'm completely with you. ;) And I haven't even made any levels yet that feature my much-anticipated Slider-Shimmier or Slider-Jumper / Jumper-Slider transitions... :thumbsup:
My packs so far:
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Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline mantha16

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2020, 09:17:32 pm »
first attempt at some experimental levels very easy ones

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2020, 02:37:14 am »
+1 for all 4 skills.

My preferences are, in this order:

1 (Joint position) Slider, Grenadier, Spearer, Laserblaster
2
3
4

Attached replays for people's levels that I managed to solve (including 2 of Armani's!) :lemcat:

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2020, 04:38:15 am »
For my levels: Every solution that's been posted to Grand Heist is a backroute (and, three different backroutes, too). Pedantic Phaser, on the other hand, everyone has gotten the intended solution.

Offline Minim

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2020, 06:00:54 am »
I thought I'd give these new skills a try too and give my thoughts.

I'm pretty much agree with Proxima about the usefulness and the funness of the Grenadier and Spearer. I think the colour of the Grenade should be different (Maybe Purple, Red, Dark Grey or Brown?) otherwise the icon just looks like he's throwing Lemming's hair. :sick: Also, the Grenade's radius is surprisingly big (It's been a long time since the "Giant Bombers" gimmick that I saw a crater this large, and I remember how big that was :o). Makes me curious to find out why.

The laserer's kinda redundant because you have the fencer, and also, you can't create or destroy steel.

The slider certainly has confused me with the mechanics, particularly as they face the opposite direction after falling down a wall, but I see plenty of potential. (It'd certainly be useful for the level "Save Me", but you'll need several lemmings for this)
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

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Offline Dullstar

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2020, 10:35:51 am »
There have been concerns that the Laser Blaster may be redundant with the Mortar/Grenadier and/or the Fencer, particularly with the current angle as opposed to a steeper one. I disagree with this perspective.

This level is designed to demonstrate a situation where the Laser Blaster is of use, but the other destructive skills are not, in such a way that the desired outcome is not easily replicated with the existing skills. The interaction showcased in this level would also outright break in a way that cannot be fixed with a steeper Laser Blaster. All destructive skills are present, including the new ones - feel free to try to get up there using any destructive skill other than the Laser Blaster - I can't think of a way to create a suitable terrain grade with any other skill (and if you do find another way, I want to know about it, because I'd like to use that).

That said, I do feel the Laser Blaster's range is a bit too long - I'm not sure if there is a maximum right now, but if there is this level was too small to show it off; I feel like if I were to include it in a proper level I'd probably want to put in a lot of steel. If we're concerned it doesn't make sense for a laser to eventually stop, we could always make it something else visually.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2020, 10:40:11 am »
Quote
The laserer's kinda redundant because you have the fencer, and also, you can't create or destroy steel.

Why should any skill be able to destroy steel? ??? Not even Bombers can do that. Bombers (and now Grenaders) already have the dedicated power to get through one-way arrows. (Especially with the Grenader, this is something we always have to be aware of from now on, because its crater is larger than the Bombers. Which is a little weird - normally you'd expect a bomb to cause a larger crater than a grenade, I guess. :evil: But a Bomber is not the same thing as dropping an actual bomb; it's more like a lemming with a dynamite belt.)

Especially considering the long range of the Laserer, steel absolutely needs to be able to stop it. If haven't tried going against one-way arrows or one-way fields with the Laserer yet.



@Dullstar: Indeed, when providing only destructive skills, there is no other way to get up there. If you don't include any constructive skills but the Spearer, you could do the same thing I did in my level "Microcosm", where you throw two spears into the ceiling so that a Shimmier can land on them and start fencing from there. You need two spears, because a single one has too flat of an angle when landing in the ceiling, so that the Shimmier will simply bump against it and fall off.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2020, 10:46:22 am by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2020, 12:20:51 pm »
Here's another one! ;)

I hope I could enforce the solution in such a way that it can't be solved by just a single pioneer lemming... that's why I had to make the Jumper a pickup skill, so the first worker lemming can't just jump towards the ceiling and shimmy up to the final part himself.

Also, I made the drop into the water a little higher on purpose, to avoid the quirky Slider-Swimmer behaviour discussed in the neighbouring thread. Also, this higher wall helps to keep the lemming trapped in a loop as long as needed, so that he doesn't walk off to the right and fall into the abyss.

Thus, whatever comes out of that Slider-Swimmer discussion, the drop is now high enough that this level should remain unaffected by any possible change regarding that matter.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2020, 05:26:18 pm »
Okay... "You Scratch My Brick" may not be completely unfixable. Here's version 4.

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2020, 06:40:02 pm »
Quote
Especially considering the long range of the Laserer, steel absolutely needs to be able to stop it. If haven't tried going against one-way arrows or one-way fields with the Laserer yet.

Like all other destructive skills, force fields (and splitters) do not affect the skills - they may affect the lemming using it, but not the skill itself, until the lemming enters the one way field and himself turns around.

The laserer is indeed affected by one-way walls, on the other hand - a left-facing laserer can destroy one-way left but not one-way right and vice versa; while the laserer can destroy one-way up and cannot destroy one-way down.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2020, 08:52:25 pm »
I just downloaded the experimental neolemmix player to see the new proposed skills. Not sure how I feel about them. At first I liked the laser blaster, but after trying the test level, this skill seems
kinda futuristic for a neolemmix game. Also the other ones not really sure either. Maybe it's because some of these were in L2 the Tribes, and they to me felt kinda silly.

I'm kinda happy with just the skills we have now. Also I'm kinda used to the original game where there is just the classic 8, also why I like Superlemmini.

But to me it doesn't matter which new proposed skills makes it in. Also maybe after a while, I'll get used to them and perhaps like them more. This is just my initial reaction to them, but after seeing
them more in peoples packs, then perhaps I'll be glad there availiable.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2020, 03:26:28 am »
Replays for the more recent levels/versions of levels. I'm sure some of these are backroutes, and I can no longer solve Proxima's! :P

These new skills are brilliant, there is definitely a lot of potential here! :thumbsup:

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2020, 05:38:18 am »
Just a heads up - I've created a separate topic for actually posting levels in, just so it's easier to find them (and in particular to find the latest versions).

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5227.0

Please move all existing level postings to that topic when you get a chance, and post new / updated levels in there from now on.

Offline Minim

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2020, 06:56:39 am »
Hey, thanks for this useful link. The number of levels that everybody's created is amazing to the point of getting out of hand really. I will have a look into each and every one of them.

By the time we get a stable version, I'm thinking of reviving the Level Solving Contest, using some of the new skills. However, I haven't got any levels in mind. If anybody simply has a large enough level to be worthy of sheer experimentation then speak up.
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Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2020, 03:49:54 am »
OK, so here are my replays for the levels I've managed to solve so far. I came close to solving Strato's The Creation, but there is one key element to this level which eluded me, and it's to do with Slider behaviour:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This behaviour is very unique to the Slider skill, and definitely lends itself well to puzzle creation. It makes it more than just another way to get down from a height: it's also
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
.

Therefore, the Slider is definitely top of my list from this bunch of new skills. That's not really saying much though coz they're all great! :thumbsup:

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2020, 11:53:12 am »
Yes, that is one possible backroute to "Microcosm". I guess I will eventually have to enforce the 2-Laserer solution and cut the Spearer from this particular level. ;)

"Thus spoke Zarathustra" was solved, as feared, with just one worker lemming instead of two. However, this is only possible due to the high ramp, which is needed as long as we have the current Slider-Swimmer behaviour. If this is changed, I can lower that ramp. If now, I'll have to dent the ceiling in such a way that you can't jump off the ramp to reach for the ceiling.

Have you seen my level "The Creation"? It wasn't in your "Strato Exp Skills levels" ZIP. And that one should definitely need the Spearer to work.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2020, 05:00:24 pm »
I've taken a look at the solutions Strato's 3 levels now:

Microcosm

The slider confuses me here I must say. It only really turns around and gets a lemming down twice and that could be easily emulated with a slight level layout change:
Extending the water area to the area where he would land and give him a swimmer. Remove the ramp to the water pit so he can get out and a wall on the right so he can turn. That way it's secured that only the swimmer can turn there.
This would also make 1 builder not nessesary so it can be culled and make the level more backroute proofed.
The other 2 turnarounds at the spears and the builder cancel each other out and are just for looks.

Otherwise it nicely shows the spear serving as a ramp to land on for a shimmier. :)

--------------------------------

The Creation

Again, the slider usage seems a bit basic here as it just turns around a lem 2 times and not even bringing him down on another level. You also need into invest another builder just for turnarounds! And this results in me breaking the level wide open - attached a replay. 8-)

I think using another grenader or a well thrown spearer could be more backroute proofed there and you can cull that 2nd builder + the stacker!

--------------------------------

Thus spoke Zarathustra

This uses the slider better with the shimmier interaction. In general shimmiers tend to act well together with 3 of the 4 new skills. Although placing the big pillar at the right side just screams "simply glide into it to get down" instead of giving 2 extra shimmiers and the slider! This can be done by 1 glider if the terrain below is slightly extended.

But the slider shimmier transition is still one of the stronger points of the skill in my opinion.

The infinite holding pit at the bottom only would need 1 terrain block at the left and the top slider usage could be emulated with a lem jumping up again when he turned around at the right though.

--------------------------------

All in all, you showed nice tricks with the slider but especially the turning around one has a major flaw in your examples: You need extra skills to make it happen and especially the case of using the builder only to turn around a slider has so many possibilities for exploits as extra builders are easily exploitable. And the turning around part can easily be emulated by so many other interaction or slight terrain changes. My replay here would serve as an example.

This could be improved thogh: I suggest if you use a skill only to turn around a slider, make the skill do something else on top of that! This way the slider interaction helps making another nessesary skill in the level even more important!

I think this rule could be used to make better levels highlighting the uniqueness of the slider! :)

Again, I take the slider over a new object any day! I just see that it still can easily substituted in many cases by existing behaviors so the better levels will likely find ways to highlight unique features without giving out extra skills that lead to easy exploits. Namida's "Pendantic Phaser" would be a good example here.

Your levels made very good showcases for the spearer and laserer though. Especially in combination with the shimmier. :)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2020, 05:57:23 pm »
Quote
This could be improved thogh: I suggest if you use a skill only to turn around a slider, make the skill do something else on top of that! This way the slider interaction helps making another nessesary skill in the level even more important!

Yeah, indeed I tried to do exactly that on "Microcosm": I wanted the staircase to both turn around the Slider and simultaneously break the fall from above out of the Laserer tunnel.
But I couldn't see a way to make the drop higher without breaking the path for the Shimmier. At least not initially. ;)
Now, instead of moving everything up, including the exit (which would have broken the Basher trick on the left), I've connected the different altitudes with a slope of the maximal possible Shimmier-friendly increase (45°).

I've attached an edited version of the level and a new replay. Removed the Fencer, the Spearers (because they could be used like Stoners to break the fall on the right), as well as one Builder, because stacking at the end of the Laserer tunnel is enough to prevent the crowd from falling out.

Interestingly, the Slider survives a drop out of the Laserer tunnel, even when not landing on the staircase - but if the crowd falls from the same height, it does not survive. ;)
However, this should not be a matter of 1 pixel, i.e. precision:
I think it's because the Slider's feet are actually already much lower (8 pixels) when he turns into a Faller? Since he's dangling from the ceiling before he falls, whereas a regular Walker turns into a Faller immediately after losing ground.

It's kind of similar to how, as a kid, jumping down from something high seems much more dangerous when you're standing upright, compared to when you're crowching down before you jump... at least it took me a while as a kid to understand that the height I was jumping down was actually the same. :D

This could be a devious little trick, where you can use Sliders to break falls even in such cases where there isn't actually a straight wall to slide down... :evil:

I will also put the update in the levels thread where we collect them all; this is just to respond to IchoTolot's point.

Quote
Although placing the big pillar at the right side just screams "simply glide into it to get down" instead of giving 2 extra shimmiers and the slider!

In fact, I originally intended for the lemming to have to jump over to the pillar to slide, instead of sliding down the steel and transitioning straight into a Shimmier. The pillar remained in there as a red herring. :P


Your minor backroute to "The Creation" was also interesting; this shows how the Spearer can create shortcuts similar to the Stoner. Not quite as powerful, of course, because you still need another lemming to place the spear correctly first, whereas Stoners can just break falls and provide a "foothold" for Builders when coming from the same side as the worker lemming. But still... these types of "drop down and go around the obstacle (in this case the steel wall that's supposed to prevent you from building from the right) from below" shortcuts are easy to overlook. Or rather, so far I only ever thought of them when providing Stoners.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2020, 04:56:19 am »
Quote from: Strato
Have you seen my level "The Creation"? It wasn't in your "Strato Exp Skills levels" ZIP. And that one should definitely need the Spearer to work.

Yes, I've tried it several times and was unable to come up with a solution. After watching your replay, I'm certain that the reason for the no-solve was because
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is a clever trick, and makes it a particularly interesting level amongst this bunch. The more of these sorts of tricks we learn, the better our ability to solve levels! :lemcat:

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2020, 08:48:17 pm »
So, now that I have made my own post in the Feedback thread, I have read the other ones.

Apparently, and as expected, each of the four members who have posted so far has a different least favourite skill (i.e. the one they would cut if they had to cut one).

IchoTolot: favourite Laserer, least favourite Slider
Proxima: favourite Slider, least favourite Laserer
WillLem: favourite Slider, least favourite Spearer
Me: favourite Laserer, least favourite Grenader

So one "cull-if-it-has-to-be" vote for each skill. :D In other words, no overwhelming dislike for any particular skill.

Sounds to me like more evidence that we should keep all four :thumbsup: !
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2020, 09:23:12 pm »
Just a few gently burning comments after reading the replies to namida's New Skills Potential post:

A quick glance at the "Favourite Tricks" comments has made me realise that these skills are even better than I thought! In particular,
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

We'll definitely need some decent tutorial levels to demonstrate the most likely possibilities.

The Slider>Shimmier transition possibilities are particularly worthy of note: this is doable from any type of overhang, and cannot be emulated by any other skill/object combination.

The extensive range of the Laserblaster is one of the many things that makes it such a good skill, I definitely wouldn't want to see the range shortened from what it is now, at least not by any significant amount.

The fact that the Grenadier blast radius is larger than that of the Bomber is, again, a very good thing. Anything that can make such light work of OWW is OK in my book! ;P But seriously - yes, it's a powerful skill, but due to the intensity of its arc, it's one you still have to be fairly careful with.

I've said the Spearer is my least favourite, but I could definitely get used to it. I think we're all in the "All Four Skills" club, really :lemcat:

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2020, 10:17:52 pm »
I also think that the likes and dislikes of the new skills are quite distributed and not too centered. You can't really make out a skill hated by the majority for example.

Although this isn't just a popularity contest as the general potential can be different from the popularity.

Different levels from different people have been made with all skills showing all sorts of different behaviors and I think I need to make even more videos in the fututre as my 9 test levels are not enough. :D

This especially, I think, is a good point for the inclusion of all and again I prefer all of those skills above any of the new object ideas.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2020, 12:30:57 am »
Quote
Although this isn't just a popularity contest as the general potential can be different from the popularity.

That may be technically true - theoretically, a lot of people could enjoy something that would enable e.g. bad puzzle design - but in practice, I'd say those two things go hand in hand:

1) If a skill is popular, a lot of people will use it, therefore lots of level ideas will be created. That's already loads of potential by itself, but you're pretty much also guaranteed to get quite a lot of decent puzzles out of this if so many different minds throw their hats in the ring.
2) If there were really something we would consider "bad for the game but popular"... well, wouldn't that just mean that the community consensus on what makes good level design shifts? :D

Just like we see it happening now already: Initially, this whole idea came from the shared feeling "19 is a weird number, let's wrap NeoLemmix up with one 20th skill".
The somewhat unspoken consensus also seemed to be "NeoLemmix is already complex enough, let's not overdo it with too many skills."

Now there are more voices than I would ever  have expected on team "4 more skills!" (insert Trump joke here). As if this experimental version had brought out the inner Lemmings 2: The Tribes player in all of us. ;)


One more thing I realised about the Laserer:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2020, 12:59:14 am »

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2020, 08:31:17 am »
Quote
1) If a skill is popular, a lot of people will use it, therefore lots of level ideas will be created. That's already loads of potential by itself, but you're pretty much also guaranteed to get quite a lot of decent puzzles out of this if so many different minds throw their hats in the ring.

Quantity does not automatically indicate quality. The base of what is used must have value in order to give the possibility of quality a chance.

Quote
2) If there were really something we would consider "bad for the game but popular"... well, wouldn't that just mean that the community consensus on what makes good level design shifts?

Not really. Even if we would get 1000 new members who would all be fire and flames for hidden objects and won't be convinced it doesn't make the concept any better. Just because a lot of people are on the side of A doesn't mean that A is good - you can see that on many examples in the real world.


Again, this just a statement on why popularity does not automatically go hand in hand with quality/potential/...... and nothing more.:8():

To underline my points here, here is an article about this: https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/9/11/e027536

They tried to proof a relationship between popularity and likely efficacy of an app. Quote of their conclusion:

"No relationship was found between popularity and likely efficacy suggesting that popularity does not assure high quality, and what is liked may not be what is likely to be effective."

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2020, 10:22:58 am »
Well, I wouldn't really measure level quality in efficacy ;) . It's a matter of personal taste. We as a community have just become pretty good at eventually convincing most new members of our position. :evil:

So I agree with you that yes, if we were to get a huge influx of new players all at once, that might tip the "democratic" opinion on what makes a fun level...
...which us, the established player base, would probably consider the "ignorance of the common plebs" :P .



@namida: Fair enough. As I said, if the distance at which the second Laserer is assigned matters because of range, then I could imagine quite a few cases where this would be relevant. But with the current long range of the Laserer (which I don't mind, btw!), there probably wouldn't be a lot of cases where a close-up Laserer can reach terrain that the first one couldn't reach from further away. And in those cases, the difference between Walker --> Laserer, Cloner --> Laserer, and Laserer --> Cloner should be negligible.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels