Author Topic: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion  (Read 25795 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 3348
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #90 on: December 26, 2020, 05:06:08 PM »
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Solved "Eternal Flame," plus scored 100% on "Morning Rescue" :)

Still can't figure out "Keep Off The Grass", though; managed to save 8 by using
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
, but there's clearly something that I'm missing with regards to this one...

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1747
  • #RIP Spearer/Grenader (2020 - 2021)
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #91 on: December 26, 2020, 06:06:09 PM »
Okay, I notice that people are starting to refer to their new-skills levels collections as "packs". :D Mobius also called my own selection of levels that, even though I didn't intend them to be (in fact, the four Pillar levels would end up in a different pack than the one Marble level I made). WillLem has even made an LP of one of these packs already, and Proxima just provided some background info on some of the levels, like in a creator's-commentary series.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing. I'm just interpreting this as people getting somewhat emotionally attached to the levels they made
with these new skills, before any of them have actually been confirmed yet.

Or... can we take this as silent community consensus that the four skills should all be introduced, and we're only discussing about the physics details now? ;)


@mobius: Your solution to "Microcosm" is an alternative one; I don't think one-way arrows can do much to enforce my intended one, because that intended solution requires two Laserers in opposite directions. Your solution to "Boom! Beer Me" doesn't work on my latest version of the level (V5). Maybe you still played an earlier one? The pioneer lemming slides back into the water and dies if I run your replay.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2020, 06:15:18 PM by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4562
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #92 on: December 26, 2020, 06:25:26 PM »
I'm just interpreting this as people getting somewhat emotionally attached to the levels they made with these new skills, before any of them have actually been confirmed yet.

Eh, not on my part. While the layouts are from GemLems and have had a lot of care put into them, the new-skills versions are just for playing around and getting to know the new skills better, and there's no question of keeping them or ever putting them in a pack. (And the trivia post mostly consists of comparisons with the GemLems originals, to tease people about that pack....)

"You Scratch My Brick", though, I am happy with, and will probably donate it to the community pack if we do end up keeping all the new skills.

Quote
Or... can we take this as silent community consensus that the four skills should all be introduced, and we're only discussing about the physics details now? ;)

I mean, it looks like we've largely had vocal consensus that all four skills should be kept for some time now, with only kaywhyn (as far as I've noticed) being a doubter (and I guess you could say me, but I only doubt the Laserer, and that one seems to be the most likely to be kept...).

However, ultimately it's up to namida, and he knows a lot more than we do about behind-the-scenes difficulties the new skills might cause, so I will accept his decision even if it's not the one I want.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2020, 06:32:09 PM by Proxima »

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12398
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #93 on: December 26, 2020, 11:06:00 PM »
Quote
Or... can we take this as silent community consensus that the four skills should all be introduced, and we're only discussing about the physics details now? ;)

None of them are decided for sure yet, not even the laserer (yes, I've said it's "very likely" to make the cut; I haven't said it's "certain" to).
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline kaywhyn

  • Global Moderator
  • Posts: 1846
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #94 on: December 26, 2020, 11:13:27 PM »
I mean, it looks like we've largely had vocal consensus that all four skills should be kept for some time now, with only kaywhyn (as far as I've noticed) being a doubter (and I guess you could say me, but I only doubt the Laserer, and that one seems to be the most likely to be kept...).

Doubter isn't very accurate here to describe my take, especially since you based it off on how I simply only posted once about the new skills. Undecided would had been a better way to describe my stance on the new skills, in particular the spearer and the grenader. I'm still of the belief that if the new skills do make it in, it should be a maximum of two new skills added. This means that I'm happy with 0, 1, or 2 new skills making it in. Definitely no more than 2. I'm quite content with the 19 skills we currently have, including the shimmier and the jumper which are the most recent new additions that are currently in the stable release and which I felt are great additions to NL. If two new skills are to make it in, then my vote goes towards the laserer and the slider, as these seem to be quite simple compared to the other two. It's mostly due to how in my eyes the game is already quite complex, especially since Neolemmix adds far more than the engines that only support the 8 classic skills.

I simply haven't cared too much about playing around with the new skills in the new levels in the experimental as much as some people, let alone thought about the new skills too much. I have played and solved several of the new skills levels, and I was going to give feedback on the skills after I have solved everything from way back in the last week of November, but some I haven't been able to solve. I haven't really came back to those levels since, so I think it's more that I gave up in frustration, especially with the levels that involve the spearer. In my eyes, I still think the skill is fiddly, but here I think it's more due to how I'm just not so good with using the spearer. In the same way that out of the Neolemmix skills, I tend to have an extremely hard time with levels that provide a lot of stackers.

Quote
However, ultimately it's up to namida, and he knows a lot more than we do about behind-the-scenes difficulties the new skills might cause, so I will accept his decision even if it's not the one I want.

My thoughts exactly.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 3348
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #95 on: December 27, 2020, 12:15:42 PM »
Decided to LP my own 8 levels, hopefully this will be useful for showcasing the new skills in action. Also, played through NieSch's 2 levels as a bonus. Enjoy! :lemcat:

Link to video.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12398
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #96 on: December 28, 2020, 08:49:18 PM »
Keeping in mind that as we discuss other points, this may change, here is my current guess as to what will be the final outcome for each skill. Again - this is NOT a final judgement, just my leanings at this point. Even more so when taking into account that the skills' workings could still be changed.

Slider (click to show/hide)

Grenader (click to show/hide)

Spearer (click to show/hide)

Laserer (click to show/hide)
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1747
  • #RIP Spearer/Grenader (2020 - 2021)
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #97 on: December 28, 2020, 09:46:46 PM »
Thanks for the update, namida! I understand your points against the Grenader. I'm just wondering: What makes this skill so much more backroute-prone in NeoLemmix that doesn't apply to the Mortar / Bazooker in Lemmings 2: The Tribes? ;)

If it's just the smaller crater, I'd reiterate that I'd rather have a Grenader with a smaller, Bomber-sized crater than not having it at all. ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4562
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #98 on: December 28, 2020, 11:31:38 PM »
Thanks for the update, namida! I understand your points against the Grenader. I'm just wondering: What makes this skill so much more backroute-prone in NeoLemmix that doesn't apply to the Mortar / Bazooker in Lemmings 2: The Tribes? ;)

Maybe it does apply to the L2 skills? Not many people here have ever even tried making custom L2 levels.

That said, one obvious difference -- and it has been mentioned before -- is that the L2 skills have knockback, making them harder to use at close range. Since the Grenader and Spearer are most interesting when used at long range, limiting their short-range capabilities seems like a sensible way to make them less backroute prone. It's just hard to think of a suitable way to do this in NL, since we are certainly not going to introduce knockback.

We've already considered and rejected the other obvious possibility, that a grenader's explosion should be lethal. (And since that would prevent the grenader being used as a blocker-release tool, I would now be against that even if it were still up for discussion.)

I had a brief thought, inspired by the grenade from Worms, that the grenader's projectile could bounce back (or fall straight down) if it hits a wall too soon. But that introduces a weird special case, and would be prone to abuse, and even if it caused fewer backroutes, they would be more pernicious ones because they'd be harder for the designer to spot. (In short, this idea is a complete non-starter.)

Other than that, I can't think of anything. I think we have to accept that if we keep the Grenader, it can be used close up as well as at range. That does make me like it a bit less, but I think it's still very much worth keeping.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12398
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #99 on: December 29, 2020, 12:04:11 AM »
Thanks for the update, namida! I understand your points against the Grenader. I'm just wondering: What makes this skill so much more backroute-prone in NeoLemmix that doesn't apply to the Mortar / Bazooker in Lemmings 2: The Tribes? ;)

Maybe it does apply to the L2 skills? Not many people here have ever even tried making custom L2 levels.

I can't say for sure how things are in L2, but my guess is that Proxima is most likely correct.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 3348
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #100 on: December 29, 2020, 03:50:41 AM »
One point in favour of the Grenader is that it's the only one of the "NeoLemmix skills" that can create downwards destruction.

However, one distinction between this skill and the Bomber is that it can only create a constantly-downwards path when used at range. Using the Grenader to make a path up close always results in an upwards incline for the path itself. This is of course due to the trajectory of the skill, and is worth keeping in mind when assessing its backroute potential: it is useful up close, but not quite as useful as you might think.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12398
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #101 on: December 29, 2020, 04:01:38 AM »
Quote
One point in favour of the Grenader is that it's the only one of the "NeoLemmix skills" that can create downwards destruction.

NeoLemmix has three other skills that can do this - bomber, miner and digger. The fact that they are not unique to NeoLemmix does not make them the slightest bit less relevant in determining "does another skill already cover this?"; they would only be irrelevant if NeoLemmix did not have them at all. (And, if you want to only count skills that are unique to NeoLemmix, the Grenader is similar enough to some L2 skills that it should not count as "unique to NeoLemmix" either. Indeed, the only skills that really can be considered outright unique to NeoLemmix are the Disarmer and the Cloner.)
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 3348
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #102 on: December 29, 2020, 04:21:42 AM »
NeoLemmix has three other skills that can do this - bomber, miner and digger. The fact that they are not unique to NeoLemmix does not make them the slightest bit less relevant in determining "does another skill already cover this?"

It does for challenge purposes, which is one of the main attractions of NeoLemmix as a platform and therefore worth considering.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm simply using the phrase "NeoLemmix skills" as a shortcut to refer to everything beyond the classic 8. I am well aware that many of these are not, in fact, unique to NeoLemmix, so perhaps I should have been more clear.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 08:01:45 AM by WillLem »

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12398
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #103 on: December 29, 2020, 06:24:15 PM »
Sure, but "disallow the original 8" is an arbitrary restriction of one challenge (and a fairly niche one at that), and the fact that such a challenge exists should not in any way be taken into account for deciding which new skills make the cut.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Gronkling

  • Posts: 483
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #104 on: December 29, 2020, 08:42:39 PM »
The grenader makes that challenge much more boring anyway IMO