Author Topic: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion  (Read 894 times)

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Online namida

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[DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« on: November 21, 2020, 12:15:36 am »
This topic was created around the time of the first public release of a new-skills experimental build.

For any general discussion of your opinions on the new skills, potential uses or substitutes for them, etc, please use this topic. This may include sharing levels you have made with the new skills.

Do not use this topic for bug reports or suggestions to change the skills. Create a new topic for those, tagging them as appropriate.

Please post levels in the New Skills Levels topic.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 05:38:58 am by namida »

Online namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2020, 12:23:37 am »
And to start this off, here's a couple of levels that I've made so far.

( EDIT: Attachments removed, get them in levels topic: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5227.0 )
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 05:39:15 am by namida »

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2020, 12:24:57 am »
Here's my first new-skills level 8-) Already on version 3 after backroutes by IchoTolot and namida!

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2020, 03:41:42 am »
My opinions from a graphics/design rather than game-play viewpoint, just throwing out my ideas
  • Slider - This one fits 100% perfectly in line with other skills
  • Laserer - A laser seems too futuristic compared to other skills. A fun idea I had would be to make it just be a lemming yelling really loudly, with the sound acting as the laser, though this might be hard to visualise. Something like a water cannon or hosepipe is another idea to think about as a more original lemming-y feeling laser that can be visualised more easily.
  • Grenadier - To me this one feels the most out of place, again it too hi tech, but also too 'dangerous' feeling for a lemming. I think it'd be fun if they threw a piece of their green hair rather than a grenade, which would match the exploder skill and nuke in that lemmings are strangely explosive. A different approach would be using grenades, but simpler ones made of wood or dirt or something.
  • Spearer - I think this one fits well since they're similar to builders etc.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2020, 09:48:23 am »
After briefly playing around with them over the last 2 days here is my stance:

1.) I'm ok with all 4 making the final cut.

2.) My preference list would be: Laserer --> grenader/spearer --> slider. So if a skill needs to go my vote is still placed on the slider as during my testing around this is still the skill I can replace the easiest or is the least flashy. On the other hand I would still be ok with it existing and would still use it. It's just if we can't have all it wouldn't get my vote.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2020, 11:14:18 am »
Alright, here's my first level (I had this idea in mind for a while), and two ways to solve it.

The first solution involves two Laserers and doesn't use the Spearer. The second solution replaces the first Laserer with two Spearers, with the Shimmier landing on top of those spears to fence instead. Note that one Spearer is not enough, because the Shimmier will shimmy into the spear and slide down instead (given that it's also a Slider).

Note that the replay using the Spearer still requires one Laserer to free the Blocker at the end. Doing this with another Fencer would require an additional Builder to connect to the wall, plus an additional destructive skill to remove that staircase again later on.

The Spearer solution is a 100% solution. This is because the Spearer causes the Slider to turn around an additional time, thereby preventing him from walking off into the water and dying.

There you go: Interactions of the new skills! :thumbsup: The Spearer improves the solution even further!

All four new skills have to stay in my book!


PS: Yes, I'm aware that the Spearer allows you to backroute the level as it currently is, by simply using it to break the fall on the right side. ;) I just put it into this level to allow for both solutions. If all the skills do indeed remain in the stable version and this level can thus become an actual level, I will obviously make further changes to it to either enforce the Spearer use at the right spot, or go with the 2-Laserer solution instead (i.e. not providing any Spearers).
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2020, 11:44:01 am »
...and here's another one using the Grenadier as well!

Turning around Sliders anywhere you want just by using a Builder is a really nice thing to have.
Especially when they're also Climbers, so that you can't simply place a Stacker in front of them as with regular lemmings.

Note that the pioneer lemming would die at the end of this solution if he weren't a Slider. Because he's a Climber as well, which would cause him to go over the stack he placed for the crowd, and walk into the trap.

Some curious cases about this level, I just want to clarify whether this is intended:

- When a Climber-Slider reaches the top of a wall and falls back down again, he slides. This is great to break a Climber's fall, of course (not relevant in this level), but is it intended? How is this handled in Lemmings 2: The Tribes? I thought a Climber bumping his head would always turn back into a regular Faller? (Not that we would have to stick to L2 behaviour, of course. As long as the Slider turns around when reaching a "closed" wall at the bottom, so that he doesn't get stuck in a loop of going up and down the same wall, everything is fine.

- You can try out the nuances about this "does the Slider turn around or not?" depending on where you place the Stacker on the stairs on the left side of the level:
Stack on flat ground and the Slider will turn around when reaching the bottom of the stack.
Stack in such a way that the stack is protruding over the staircase, and the Slider will have his feet in the air when reaching the bottom of the stack. He will thus turn into a Faller briefly, still looking into the direction he was facing while sliding, and walk back into the direction where he came from (in this case, into the trap).

- When a Slider slides into the water pool and is also a Swimmer, he immediately hops out of the water again, because sliding causes him to face the shoreline. :thumbsup:


PS: If you use the Grenadier close to a wall, it technically acts very similar to an L2 Bomber (=the one that doesn't kill the lemming, because the original Bomber has been renamed to Exploder in L2). Very useful to have / know as well! ;) Almost two skills for the price of one.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 11:52:49 am by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2020, 01:47:43 pm »
Icho has done some thinking!

While I still have the opinion that from the new 4 skills the slider is the weakest, I can see it making a bunch of situations more conveniant that involve multiple tight turns. While they all can be be subsituted more or less easily in some combination by other skills, as I could try to show here again and again, I think all 4 skills have their reasons to stay and my energy is used better elsewhere. ;)

That would still leave the problem of the workload of finalising the implementation, the added complexity and maintenance of those skills.

That lead me to the following thought: Why don't we cut down on new things somewhere else? ???

The answer here are the new objects we are discussing about:
https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4772.0

Namida stated there:
Quote
...I am willing to add more than one...

So why not having just 1 additional object type and as a result keep those 4 skills in which coding work was already invested! ???

Another big reason here is:

- New skills usually brought in more new levels than new objects!

I have seen more shimmier levels already than splitter or one-way field levels! I have even seen more disarmer levels!

Also, I think new skills are easier to introduce to players!

New objects have to be reached and experimented with first while skills can just be assigned and experimented with from the get-go. On top of that, new design guidelines for a new object type must be developed and actually followed to make the object as clear as possible and even after that it is not so clear that new players will get them from the start.

Generally I consider the entry complexity load from new objects greater than the one from new skills.
Skills are more "easy to lean hard to master" types while objects can struggle a lot more with the initial hurdle but after that lacking the overall depth of skills.

So why not keep all 4 new skills and as a compromise cut down on the new objects? ???

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2020, 01:53:35 pm »
I have forgotten to attach my new solutions to namida's and Proxima's levels. :P

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2020, 02:16:03 pm »
I fully agree with everything IchoTolot has outlined in his second-to-last post! :thumbsup: (Well, except of course that I have always liked the Slider from the getgo, but since we're both endorsing the "keep all four skills" position now, in the absence of "skill-slot scarcity", we won't have to argue about the Slider anymore :P .)

I've been maintaining for the longest time that the main problem with Lemmings 2: The Tribes was not the abundance of skills itself (even though the game is infamous for that), but
a) the redundancy of some of them (Basher / Club Basher being the most glaring example) and
b) the execution difficulty, especially for skills involving the fan (which we don't have in NeoLemmix anyway, so that problem is irrelevant)

I don't see any redundancy with the skills we have in NeoLemmix so far. Not even for Laserer vs. Fencer - and if somebody wants to make that case, I'd still consider Stacker and Stoner as having much more overlap than those two. And yet, Stacker and Stoner have been a staple of NeoLemmix for many years now, and the community has found enough cases where the difference between them is indeed very much relevant.



So I'd definitely rather have more skills (that is, all we have now in the latest experimental, not "more in addition to those" ;) ) than new objects.

In fact, I could do without most of the objects that are being proposed in that new-objects thread. Of my favourites, only 2-3 are remaining as possible contenders. But I'll outline those in the appropriate thread.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2020, 02:39:05 pm »
Looks like that's it for my first level. I can accept Icho's solution, which uses the main trick, and even shows off another interesting trick with the new skills that I didn't intend; but I can't see any way of fixing Armani's without breaking the intended solution.

I guess it just goes to show how powerful the new skills are :P

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2020, 06:26:10 pm »
Since others are already giving their opinions of the new skills, I will too, with the obvious caveat that this may change as I spend more time playing with them.

The spearer and grenader are huge fun -- for some reason, it is really satisfying to see the projectiles flying around, and to construct solutions where lemmings in one place affect things in another place. The two skills complement each other really well; spearer is the more versatile of the two, but the grenader is not far behind and also has a very interesting unique use case, being able to release a blocker without having to give the player any of the line-based destructive skills. In short, both skills are great and I'd love to keep both.

However, I still feel the arc is too broad, making these skills a bit too powerful, which will be a continuing nightmare from the backroute-prevention point of view. My preference would be roughly what I suggested earlier: same height, about 3/4 of the current width. But if they make it in with the current arc, they are still great skills and I'll be happy to use them.

I don't like the laserer at all; I just can't think of anything interesting to do with it. Its two main uses -- digging diagonally upwards, and affecting ceilings from a distance -- are covered by the fencer and grenader respectively. I still think a steeper laserer (such as 3:1) would be more interesting. But I guess we're not going to get to play with that possibility now.

The slider is still the best of the new skills :P

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2020, 06:49:52 pm »
I was skeptical about the Laserer at first, too, fearing that the angle might be too flat. But now, seeing it in direct comparison to the Fencer (especially with the two different solutions for my level Microcosm, where you can see the Fencer comes out of the wall quite a bit lower), I don't think any longer that it's a problem: For any case where I want to apply the Laserer in its traditional L2 manner, i.e. more akin to an upward Digger, the tunnel is still steep enough. Because the Fencer only has a 2:1 ratio, the Laserer a 1:1 ratio (=45°).

Regarding projectiles, I'd agree that the Spearer is more useful than the Grenader, but maybe I'm just personally more creative (pun intended :P ) with the former. I'm with IchoTolot though that a long horizontal range (as it currently is) is what makes this skill useful. Especially when working within the confines of a "classical Lemmings level", which does not include vertical, but only horizontal scrolling. Having a steep arc for the projectiles is just not nearly as useful as a longer horizontal rage in those standard and very frequent cases. Indeed, I think this is the case you're making: That this horizontal range makes the projectiles [i}too[/i] powerful. I would argue that we will probably just have to learn to limit their location of applicability by making them pickup skills, if need be - just like with any other skill.

That is, unless we get no-assignment fields on top of that, of course. ;)

Quote
The slider is still the best of the new skills

Here, in contrast, I'm completely with you. ;) And I haven't even made any levels yet that feature my much-anticipated Slider-Shimmier or Slider-Jumper / Jumper-Slider transitions... :thumbsup:
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline mantha16

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2020, 09:17:32 pm »
first attempt at some experimental levels very easy ones

Online WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2020, 02:37:14 am »
+1 for all 4 skills.

My preferences are, in this order:

1 (Joint position) Slider, Grenadier, Spearer, Laserblaster
2
3
4

Attached replays for people's levels that I managed to solve (including 2 of Armani's!) :lemcat: