Poll

Pick up to 4 of these ideas that you'd like to see kept under consideration.

No-Assignment Field - An area which prevents skill assignments to any lemming inside it. A lemming already performing a skill while entering would continue to do so; only the *assignment* is blocked.
Portals - An always-active teleporter (similar to how fire is always-active compared to a regular trap).
Toggle Buttons - Buttons that turn on / off another object (or a barrier or bridge).
Trampoline - An object which safely breaks a lemming's fall, turning them into a Jumper on impact; and could potentially also have this effect on walkers.
State Changer - An object that turns lemmings into Zombies or Neutrals, or turns such lemmings back into regular ones.
Diagonal One-Way Arrows - Exact properties to be determined, but similar in spirit to existing OWAs.
Downdraft - A "reverse updraft" that increases fall speed and reduces safe fallable distance.
Permanent Skill Applier - An object that adds permanent skills to lemmings.
Linker / Unlinker - An object that "entangles" lemmings, making it so that a skill assigned to a linked lemming is applied to all linked lemmings.
Fuser - Combines two lemmings with permanent skills into a single one with the combined skillset.

Author Topic: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types  (Read 2737 times)

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Offline namida

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[DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
« on: April 11, 2020, 08:50:56 pm »
Similar to the skill for the final new skill, let's discuss the final few object types to add. I'll stress again that this is "types", in this case I am willing to add more than one. I don't have an exact limit in mind, but I'm envisioning perhaps three or four get added - certianly, it won't be "every suggestion gets implemented" or even "every suggestion that has decent potential and isn't too hard to implement, gets implemented". This of course could depend on several factors - if it's something with a "left" and "right" variation, or perhaps two opposing objects (like splatpads vs antisplat pads), then perhaps I count it as "one" object and still add a couple more. Complexity is also a factor, of course.

I'll compile a list of relevant topics later (maybe) - please feel free to suggest topics to add to it (but perhaps PM me or mention them on Discord, so that it doesn't clutter up this topic just with links to others). Likewise, the "ruled out" list is only at this stage a few things that immediately came to mind, and it will likely grow - as might the "willing to consider" or even "strong contenders" - as I think of ideas.

Suggestions don't need to be great right away - good ideas can often be found by refining ones that aren't so great, yet do have seeds of potential. However, let's not post any outright joke suggestions in this topic.

Like with the 20th skill, the earliest any of these will make an appearance will be V12.11.X.

Not relevant to this topic
- Screen wrap - this is a general mechanic, not an object of any kind

Ruled out
- Anything that is not an object (some of these ideas might be accepted in general but this topic not the place for them)
- Anything involving changing the direction of gravity
- Anything that the player directly interacts with / controls (like the moveable blocks in Lemmings Touch / moveable objects in L2)
- Anything capable of infinitely spawning additional lemmings (but I am open to ideas that spawn a limited amount)
- Anything that is very obviously not a fit for the NeoLemmix philosophy (eg. effects that are random or highly chaotic; effects that mess with the UI; etc)
- Slight variations that don't add much value on existing objects
- One way up / down force fields (too many edge cases that need to be individually learnt; and too complicated to implement)
- One-lemming-may-pass trap / door (easily simulated by careful terrain layouts or other suggestions)
- Slippery terrain (too complex)
- Permanent-skill-only exits (already been discussed and rejected before)
- Splat fields / antisplat fields (we already have the pads + updrafts, and while there's a small degree of possibilities that are unique to one or the other, the vast majority of use cases overlap and are just a cosmetic difference)
- Object erasers (too messy, and too open to abuse)
- Trampoline (voted out)
- Fuser / "lemming combiner" (voted out)
- Linker / entangler (voted out)
- Diagonal one-way arrows (voted out)


Willing to consider
- Portals (teleporters that are constant rather than triggered; ie: a portal is to a teleporter, what a fire object is to a triggered trap)
- Toggle buttons or switches (perhaps with a limited scope on what they can toggle; but this could possibly include terrain - with the catch that any toggleable terrain must be steel)
- No-assignment field
- Permanent skill assigner
- Zombifier / Neutral-ifier (and/or reversals thereof)
- Downdraft
- Paint (specific object type for only-on-terrain effect, to replace that effect in general)

Strong contenders
- Permanent skill remover
- No-effect triggered animations (this one will happen unless there's significant opposition to it)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 11:32:04 pm by namida »

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2020, 08:51:07 pm »
(Reserved, just in case)

Online IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2020, 08:53:42 pm »
I would be in favor of the permanent skill remover so far.

It's something that isn't possible until now and I think it could come in handy. :)

Offline DireKrow

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2020, 09:29:31 pm »
Compared to skills - which I'm a bit picky about - there's honestly a lot of objects or modifications to existing objects that I could see being useful:

Non-assignment fields or surfaces
Permanent skill assigner, permanent skill remover
Allowing buttons to toggle hatches/traps/teleporters/etc
Traps (or doors?) that allow one lemming past then exclude all others
Portals, bi-directional teleporters, screen wrap
Blue/green hatches + blue/green exits
Neutralizer, un-neutralizer, un-zombifier
Springs/trampolines
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 09:47:05 pm by DireKrow »
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Offline GigaLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2020, 09:41:56 pm »
Gonna be honest here, I'm in favor in pretty much all that is not only considered but also strong contenders. I can easily see great puzzles being made with them.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2020, 10:46:43 pm »
First of all, I'm very happy to see portals are already on the list! :thumbsup: I thought these were a property of Lemmings Revolution only; little did I remember that this is actually how teleporters work in Lemmings 2: The Tribes as well! Only in Lemmings 3D were they release-rate sensitive.

Both in L3D and L2, teleporters are bidirectional, as far as I remember. Portals in Lemmings Revolution definitely are.

In that sense, I'd definitely need portals for at least some of my L2-style levels in Lemmings Hall of Fame :D !

With trampolines, apparently it's the other way round - release-rate sensitive in L2, non-release rate sensitive in L3D. I prefer non-release-rate-sensitivity for objects anyway (well, aside from triggered traps! :D ), so I'd be happy to see trampolines implemented the L3D way!

Quote
Blue/green hatches + blue/green exits

Since hair colour changes with regular lemming vs. athlete state, how about we turn this into "exits that allow only specific types of permanent skills to enter"? ;) This would become even more interesting with the permanent-skill-removal object. Another instance of NeoLemmix becoming more like the puzzle game Star Wars: Pit Lems!

Quote
Non-assignment fields or surfaces

I support those as well, and I would love to see them implemented specifically as ice / slippery terrain, like in L3D / L2! :thumbsup:



My additional suggestions would be:
- up- and down one-way fields (discussion thread: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4767.0)
- diagonal one-way arrows (discussion thread: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4546.0)
- terrain that can be activated and deactivated with toggles / buttons, like the retractable barriers in Lemmings Revolution (active terrain: contains lemmings, provides a bridge for them, or is an obstacle; deactivated terrain: opens gaps to pass through, or opens gaps that need to be crossed in a different way)

Finally: Screen wrap is technically not an object, but a former gimmick. Yet, it has already been mentioned by others, and I already expressed my support for this as well, so I'll do so here again.

But just in case we're talking about bringing back any other former "gimmicks" besides wrap - since Superlemming has already been ruled out (at least to my understanding) - I would love to see Karoshi mode back! ;) (For the newer forum members: This means an option to enable on individual levels that leads to the player having to kill the lemmings instead of saving them ;) . It's clearly visible from the start of the level, because the title screen then says "N lemmings to be killed", rather than "N lemmings to be saved", and one could probably think of an additional reminder during level playing, like a skull on the panel, next to the save requirement etc.)

After all, the death animations of lemmings were kind of what got the whole game started at DMA in the first place... :evil:
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Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2020, 11:03:05 pm »
My thoughts on all the proposals so far, except the "ruled out" ones. For those who don't want to read a wall of text, I'll use talisman icons:

:tal-gold: Yes please!
:tal-silver: This has definite potential, and I'd be in favour so long as it doesn't result in something I like more missing out.
:tal-bronze: Not sure about this one, and considering we don't want a glut of new object types, that really means I'd probably vote against.
:8(): No. This should be eaten by the clam.

* * * *

:tal-gold: No-assignment field: Extremely handy as a backroute preventer, but can also be the starting point for a puzzle in its own right (e.g. here's a wall you need to get up; there's a NAF in front of it so you can't just build up).

:8(): Ice / slippery terrain: There is a big problem with this idea. We already have ice in some tilesets, and it is not slippery. Introducing new ice that is slippery when old ice isn't would be very confusing.

:tal-gold: Portals: This is what teleporters should always have been, and if we can't just change teleporters to work as portals because of existing content, then adding them as a new object would still be a welcome move. I think it adds enough puzzle potential and (more importantly?) subtracts enough user annoyance to be viable even though it's a variant on an existing object.

:tal-bronze: Trampoline/spring: Back when Lix had these, I was always against them, but then, Lix trampolines had a variable result depending on where the lix jumped or fell from, so it was often hard to know exactly where you could reach and where you couldn't. As I understand, the proposed NL object is a spring that, essentially, gives lemmings the Jumper skill without consuming a skill. While that does remove much of the annoyance of the Lix trampoline, it's still a niche object that will only see occasional use, especially if we do add portals.

:tal-bronze: Zombifier / neutraliser and their converses. For starters, I don't agree that we have to have all four if we have one. (If we have more than one, new users have to learn what they look like and how to distinguish them.) So let's discuss them separately. Lemming -> zombie is the least useful because that's what a zombie already does. Use a preassigned blocker if you want him to be stationary. Lemming -> neutral has some potential if it's unavoidable and you have to babysit the neutral, but does this really add anything we can't already do with neutral preplaced lemmings and hatches?

Neutral -> normal lemming has some potential, because you have to direct the neutral to the object; but "direct the neutral" puzzles can already be done by having to direct them to an exit. Zombie -> normal is the most interesting, because you have to direct the zombie while avoiding being infected. However, this too can already be done, either by having to direct the zombie to its death, or direct a zombie disarmer to a trap.

:tal-silver: Permanent skill remover: I can imagine a lot of different puzzles using this, so it definitely has potential. I just don't feel I'd especially feel the lack of it if it didn't get added, though.

:8(): No-effect animations: Why? This is just lying to the player, something we've agreed again and again is not NL's philosophy. If something visible happens in response to a trigger, it should have an effect.

:8(): Permanent skill assigner: No, this is getting out of hand. Just use a pick-up skill if you want a permanent skill to be only available after reaching a certain point.

:tal-silver: Buttons and gates: This has a lot of potential. How I see it working: a gate is an indestructable rectangular object (i.e. all interactions with it are the same as interactions with steel), and buttons can be assigned to open or close certain gates when stepped on. The gate would have three parts and only the middle part would open, so the "frame" would show the presence of a gate, and it would be possible to have gates that start open.

:8(): Buttons that can affect any object: This is overcomplicated and doesn't really do much you can't already do with buttons and gates. (I know I suggested it in another topic, but that wasn't intended seriously.)

:8(): Gates that only let one lemming past: Not worth being a separate object since this is easy to set up with a button and gate.

:tal-bronze: Blue/green hatches and exits: To spell out what DireKrow is suggesting, the idea is that there are two sets of lemmings, with no difference between them except that some exits can only take one of the two sets. Of course, they shouldn't actually be blue and green, since we already have green to show that a lemming has a permanent skill. I can see some possibilities for this, but it's already possible to set up, with permanent-skill hatches and two (or more) exits that require different permanent skills to reach.

:8(): Permanent-skill-only exits as an object: Redundant. You can already do this with a normal exit.

:tal-bronze: Up and down one-way fields: There are some situations where these would be handy, but I'm not wild about them.

:8(): Diagonal one-way arrows: We have enough one-way arrows already, and the player has to remember different rules for each type. Let's not.

:tal-bronze: Screen wrap: We have this in Lix, and it's mainly a multiplayer feature, with occasional use in single-player puzzles. I don't think it adds enough to be worth considering at this stage, especially since it can be simulated with portals.

:8(): Karoshi: Sure, it was fun as a one-off, but the decision that was made when we scrapped gimmicks is that the rules of play should not vary from level to level. That's why zombies were promoted to a main feature instead of a gimmick: they don't violate that rule. Namida has made clear that screen wrap will only be coming back if it's also in a non-violating way: allowing the player to scroll continuously instead of surprising them when a lemming walks off-screen and comes back on the other side.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2020, 11:12:26 pm »
Great topic, Namida. A few +1s from me, in order of preference (my "definite-support-for-this-idea" items are in bold, the others I think would be cool):

Portals
Colour-specific hatches + exits
Allowing buttons to toggle hatches/traps/teleporters/etc
Un-zombifier & un-neutralifier
Permanent skill assigner/remover

No-assignment field
Springs/trampolines

Also:

TurboLemming Maker! :lemcat: ;P :forehead: (I'm sorry: no more joke ideas, I promise!)

Quick question: what are "no-effect triggered animations"?

---

And, last but by no means least, I'd like to take this opportunity to re-state my case for the splat/anti-splat fields, and how it's different enough from the pads to justify implementation alongside them:

Benefit 1: The fields can be easily resized to cover entire areas of terrain: even if dug into, or built over, the field remains active throughout the block - the puzzle potential for this is massive.

Benefit 2: Fields are clearer and neater than pads, which can make a level look a bit messy if there are too many of them.

Benefit 3: They can cover irregular-shaped terrain such as spikes, crystal clumps, staircases, and other decorative terrain.

Benefit 4: I'd probably assert that a field is easier to quickly understand than a pad (for new players) - not only because it's a familiar concept to existing Lemmings players, but also more specifically because lemmings fall through the pads, and it's actually the terrain below it that is the point of contact.

I'd also state that the idea seemed to be popular when I made the original topic, and so may be worth looking into; ccexplore also posted with some ideas for how it could be made possible. Since posting the topic I've redesigned the fields so that they have smiley faces on them rather than "SPLAT" and "NO SPLAT", but they could theoretically be any colour and have any design.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2020, 11:24:37 pm »
Quote from: WillLem
TurboLemming Maker!

Quote from: namida
However, let's not post any outright joke suggestions in this topic.

:P

Quote
Ice / slippery terrain: There is a big problem with this idea. We already have ice in some tilesets, and it is not slippery. Introducing new ice that is slippery when old ice isn't would be very confusing.

No, we have snow on various tilesets, not ice... :P

Ice as in "the thing that makes lemmings trip and fall on their backside" in Lemmings 2 has a distinct animation (frozen water-pond with sparkling star reflections at the top) that can be easily distinguished from the regular snow landscape that is made up of terrain. This animation could be used, even if the ice behaved not like in Lemmings 2 but like e.g. the slippery blocks in L3D.

Quote
Screen wrap: We have this in Lix, and it's mainly a multiplayer feature, with occasional use in single-player puzzles. I don't think it adds enough to be worth considering at this stage, especially since it can be simulated with portals.

Yes, when it comes to the "time-economic" aspect of "how many objects can namida reasonably introduce before the final version hits?", i.e. if some features need to be discarded simply because time won't allow them, then wrap could be sacrificed for portals because that feature can be "nested" within portals. The thing with portals is that they limit the wrap to the specific locations they're in.

Of course you could technically simulate a perfect wrap by surrounding the entirety of the level edges in portal trigger areas, but it would probably look pretty dumb and confusing. Especially since the player technically can't rely on the idea that every single one of these portals takes the lemming to the opposite site of the level, instead of somewhere else. Leaving level wrap to be done with portals can thus bear huge trolling potential (you have an entire level border full of "wrapping" portals, and then one random portal hidden somewhere among them that leads straight to the exit, or into a trap, etc.).
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Offline DireKrow

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2020, 11:47:43 pm »
:8(): Permanent skill assigner: No, this is getting out of hand. Just use a pick-up skill if you want a permanent skill to be only available after reaching a certain point.

I disagree with "just use a pickup". The assigner works on all lemmings so it avoids having to assign all 30 lemmings with whatever skill. Having a pickup of 30 climbers would be pretty tedious. Next, the fact the lemmings have to go to the position of the assigner rather than being able to assign the skills anywhere is very significant. It makes it stronger at preventing backroutes than a pickup, and it can be incorporated into the puzzle itself, if the challenge is getting the crowd to the assigner. It can also be a puzzle to avoid the assigner, either completely or with select lemmings

:8(): Gates that only let one lemming past: Not worth being a separate object since this is easy to set up with a button and gate.

You're assuming button activated gates get in, though. A trap which arms once one lemming goes past is a different thing and is worth including on its own in the event that gates do not. While I was making my LDC 20 levels, there was a couple of occasions where I really wish I could allow one lemming through an area without allowing the crowd access. Currently there's no easy way to do this without making the single worker a climber, floater, etc, but what if you don't want to or can't do that?

Quote
Namida has made clear that screen wrap will only be coming back if it's also in a non-violating way: allowing the player to scroll continuously instead of surprising them when a lemming walks off-screen and comes back on the other side.

Why can't we just have a glowy effect on the map edges if wrap is in play, or something?
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Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2020, 12:03:14 am »
Quote
Why can't we just have a glowy effect on the map edges if wrap is in play, or something?

This is also an option, though not my preference. The important thing is that it's clearly communicated to the player.

But at any rate, "screen wrap" is not an object, and discussion of it does not belong in this topic, except maybe in terms of how it directly interacts with (or makes redundant, or is made redundant by) proposed objects.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2020, 12:06:25 am »
You're assuming button activated gates get in, though.

No, I'm saying that given a choice between the two, buttons-and-gates is a clear winner, because it can do everything a one-lemming gate can and more. (Although there is an issue with multiple lemmings in exactly the same place; but wouldn't a one-lemming gate also have that problem?)

Quote
Why can't we just have a glowy effect on the map edges if wrap is in play, or something?

That would be inconvenient on large levels, where it would be hard to judge where the lemmings will end up when they wrap at a certain point. But my point was that we don't want the rules of play to change from level to level; nothing to do with making it visible. You would have a stronger objection if you'd said "actually, any kind of wrap is in violation of that principle", and that is more or less true; I should modify my claim to say that if we introduce wrap, we want to make it feel like less of a violation by making it as consistent with the feel of a normal level as possible.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2020, 12:32:06 am »
Quote
Why can't we just have a glowy effect on the map edges if wrap is in play, or something?

This is also an option, though not my preference. The important thing is that it's clearly communicated to the player.

But at any rate, "screen wrap" is not an object, and discussion of it does not belong in this topic, except maybe in terms of how it directly interacts with (or makes redundant, or is made redundant by) proposed objects.

Just whilst it's come up: it's still my general feeling that screen wrap's implementation in-game ought to be the choice of the player: if they'd prefer the level to scroll continuously, that's what they'll see. If they'd prefer a glowing edge and lems walking off one side and reappearing the other, same again.

But yeah, maybe a separate topic to discuss wrap? I think there already is one somewhere...

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2020, 07:07:58 am »
New idea:

Downdraft

The downdraft is to the splat-pad what the updraft is to the anti-splat pad. Any faller that enters a downdraft instantly has its fall distance set to a fatal height. Floaters, gliders, and swimmers that will land in water can safely pass through a downdraft (unless the falling lemming lands on an anti-splat pad or enters an updraft before landing), and walkers can freely enter as long as they don't fall. This object would solve a lot of frustrations I've had patching backroutes in levels with constructive skills that can be abused to create safe landing pads (vertical scrolling can be a workaround, but I like to avoid excessive scrolling when possible - it pains me to introduce vertical scrolling into a level that didn't otherwise need it simply because not making the level tall resulted in backroutes). Splat pads are difficult to use in this way due to their limited trigger areas, and in some cases their placement can interfere with the intended solution. Plus, they're harder to use with long fall into water set-ups with Swimmers.

Since the floater and glider are affected by updrafts, they probably should be affected by downdrafts too for consistency, but it's not necessary. They shouldn't splat if they hit the ground while they're in the field, though, since it's cleaner and simpler if the rule is that floaters/gliders never splat (it's also consistent with how splat pads work).

It likely wouldn't even require new graphics, as it could play the updraft animation backwards.
Downdrafts cannot overlap with updrafts (this should probably be handled comparably to how overlapping one-way-walls are handled).
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 07:15:16 am by Dullstar »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2020, 01:13:21 pm »
Splat pads are difficult to use in this way due to their limited trigger areas

Have you seen the splat/anti-splat fields idea?

I like the idea of downdrafts too, btw. :thumbsup: