Author Topic: Integral Lemmings  (Read 2112 times)

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Offline ∫tan x dx

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Integral Lemmings
« on: September 19, 2018, 09:32:46 pm »
Hi all. I'm a long time fan of the lemmings series and I'd like to present you with my first level pack!

Integral Lemmings

This is a pack for the latest version of NeoLemmix (V12.03.01). It consists of two ranks, each with ten levels.
The rank Epsilon levels use the classic skillset whereas the Delta levels use some of the new features and skills that NeoLemmix provides.
The two ranks are of roughly equal difficulty, and the levels in each pack get progressively harder.

Download Integral Lemmings V3 here!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nyjlrlg7ak1qwb5/IntegralLemmingsV3.zip?dl=1

Changelog for version 2:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Changelog for version 3:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Feedback, suggestions, comments and criticisms are appreciated!

Enjoy!
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 09:39:09 pm by ∫tan x dx »

Offline Flopsy

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2018, 10:19:50 pm »
Welcome to the forums tan x dx :)

This level pack is very well designed and you clearly have worked hard on it at first glance.
I'm interested in recording myself playing this level pack and that will be valuable feedback to yourself, the levels do look very difficult but they look like they will be fun to attempt.

The only immediately critique I have of this level pack in general is it is generally not common practice to have a time limit for every single level in the pack. We usually have an unwritten rule here that time limits should only be used when the challenge of the level warrants it. A couple of good examples to use from the standard Lemmings games are "Just A Minute", "ONWARDS AND UPWARDS", "Welcome to the Party Pal" etc.
I can see a couple of levels in the pack where this rule could apply, the ones where the time limits are generally smaller like 3:00 could be ok. Without playing the levels I don't have a precise answer to this, you rarely get much from adding a 7-8 min time limit to a level though for example.

I think what I'm saying is, the levels look hard enough already without the time limits being there to turn our potential solves into no solves because we weren't quick enough to execute the solution. It can be aggravating and result in the pack not being as much fun and this pack although small looks like it can be a lot of fun so it is such a minor thing which can be easily fixed :).

Maybe you didn't know that having no time limit levels was acceptable, I can assure you they are most welcome :)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 09:12:37 pm by Flopsy »
Don't tell me solutions to levels which I have not solved.

Lemmings: Gotta Go Fast - My NEW (in development) Sonic tileset dedicated level pack :)
SEB Lems - My first level pack (175 levels)
Flopsy's Youtube Channel - Watch Lemmings videos/streams with live commentary
Flopsy's Sonic Graphic Sets - Download Neo Lemmix compatible Sonic tilesets.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2018, 11:09:02 pm »
I am greatly impressed with the pack so far! :thumbsup:  I can even see glances of my own level creation style in some levels! ;)

I've played through Epsilon and will continue with Delta tomorrow, as it is rather late here. ;)

I've attached my replays to this post and will post detailed feedback when I'm through with the pack.

Generally as Flopsy said I can only see 1 level in the first level that benefits from a time limit, that being the 3:00 dirt one.

Great pack so far and welcome to the forums! :thumbsup:

Offline Crane

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2018, 11:15:30 pm »
Welcome to the forums, ln|sec x| + C.  I'll definitely start having a look at your pack.  Good for more people to join our little family!

Offline namida

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2018, 06:45:32 am »
Just a tip - with DropBox links, change the dl=0 to dl=1 at the end, then the link will work as a direct download (instead of having to go through the DropBox splash page).

Going to take a look at this pack. :) Welcome to the forums!



Okay, I played the first three levels.

The first level was pretty clever, took me a while to solve.
I think the second might be a backroute. If it's intended, it's pretty clever.
The third one... holy shit, this level is crazy hard. I'm not sure this isn't a backroute, and even this took me well over an hour to find. If it is the intended solution, that's a lot of precision...

I agree with the sentiment about the time limits being unnecessary, although at least they were set high enough that they weren't a problem.

I'll continue on this later, but I'm definitely very impressed so far.



Okay, I played the rest of Epsilon. I'll play Delta another time, maybe tomorrow.

I'm very impressed. These are all great levels - some easier than others for sure, but they're all very good.

The 4th one, I suspect might be another backroute.
The 5th one is one of my favorites! :D That's a really clever level.
The 6th one is another really neat level. I got the left side almost right away (I've used that trick many times in my own levels), but it took me a while to figure out how to handle the right side.
The 7th one was fairly easy. I saw the solution right away, it was just a matter of figuring out how to make it work, which didn't take too long either. It's still a good level, just relatively easy by this pack's standards.
The 8th one, almost every one of my packs contains (at least one) level using this kind of trick, so I had no trouble at all with this one.
The 9th one was a really fun level. Despite the time limit being low, it didn't really feel particularly tight.
And finally, the final level of Epsilon... this was second only to level 3 in terms of how long it took me to solve, but this time it was purely a matter of figuring the solution out, rather than messing around with precision. This was an INCREDIBLE level! :D A very likely LOTY2018 candidate here!
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 10:16:45 am by namida »
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2018, 10:41:11 am »
I solved the pack and hui the Delta rank was quite a challenge. ;)

I've attached my full set of replays.

Feedback (I left the timer issue out for the most part here):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

All in all this jumps right up into my favorite packs list :thumbsup: and the things I learned could inspire me to create a few more levels for my United pack, which comes slowly close to completion now. ;)

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2018, 10:17:30 pm »
Hi everybody!

Thank you all so, so much for all of your kind words! This is indeed a lovely community! :thumbsup:

I've uploaded a version 2 of integral lemmings based on the feedback I have received so far.
See the op for the change log and updated download link.

A word of warning, those who have found backroutes to levels will have to retry them, although I'm sure they still won't pose too much of a challenge to you crafty folk! ;)

Offline namida

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2018, 04:39:31 am »
I checked over my replays in the new version. Any I don't mention, my old replay still works.

Epsilon 2: Only took some minor tweaks to make my solution work again.
Epsilon 4: Here, too, it just took some slight tweaks to get my solution to work again.
Epsilon 8: I didn't try the talisman again yet, but I think I know the general idea - it's still pretty much the same thing, just a lot more frustrating to execute.
Epsilon 10: Okay, this feels intended. That's a really good level!
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2018, 09:40:03 am »
I've updated my replays.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline namida

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2018, 08:00:38 pm »
Quote
IchoTolot re Epsilon 6 (click to show/hide)

I tried this initially too, figured out it didn't work, then came up with an alternate approach. I don't think two pixels will indicate it very clearly in this case - it's still splat height at the top of the bridge (yet close enough to it that it isn't clearly so without testing or using the distance ruler) either way, while still 24 ~ 26 pixels more from the very bottom. It needs to be moved down by significantly more than that if the intent is to clearly communicate "this is splat height". With that being said - finding that it was splat height didn't invalidate my whole solution, what I did on the other half of the level still remained part of my final solution, so it is one of the less critical cases of this IMO.

I also solved Delta 1. This feels extremely backroutey, but I can't see any other way to solve it.
EDIT: Solved Delta 2. I could see this one being either intended or backroute, not sure. If it's intended, great level.

Spoilers re Delta 2's solution (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 11:49:05 pm by namida »
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2018, 09:15:56 am »
I totally forgot 1 point in my feedback!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2018, 11:38:59 am »
Correction: IchoTolot doesn't like hidden traps! :P Sometimes they are unavoidable by design (boulder trap in the Dirt tileset, grappling trap in the Purple tileset, and so on). I don't think people have come so far yet as to not use these traps at all anymore in new levels (because then Nepster would have culled them, I guess :evil: ).

I guess the general consensus among all forum members is, though: "Don't make traps hidden unless it is absolutely inevitable."
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 01:07:50 pm by Strato Incendus »
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2018, 04:27:01 pm »
Correction: IchoTolot doesn't like hidden traps! :P Sometimes they are unavoidable by design (boulder trap in the Dirt tileset, grappling trap in the Purple tileset, and so on). I don't think people have come so far yet as to not use these traps at all anymore in new levels (because then Nepster would have culled them, I guess :evil: ).

I guess the general consensus among all forum members is, though: "Don't make traps hidden unless it is absolutely inevitable."

Correction: IchoTolot, Simon, Nepster......(insert user name here) don't like hidden traps. Don't act like I am the only one here!

If your design is only possible with hidden traps than it's just plain bad design! If a trap requires it to be hidden it's a badly designed trap! This fact isn't going to change regardless of how many people don't mind them.  :8():
All people can think the earth is flat, but it's not going to change the truth.
New players most likely don't use the true physics that much and will get furios running into hidden traps.

It was the very first thing I was taught here by nearly everyone playing my levels back in the days - Don't hide your traps! I will glady pass that torch to everyone new.

Here in this case the mashers on Delta 6 would even look way better if they are just under the steel on the top and visible.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2018, 06:21:23 pm »
And Arty and GigaLem have both made use of hidden traps and/or exits in their respective packs. ;) I think GigaLem has changed his stance on hidden traps pretty drastically since then, though, whereas Arty, in one of his SEB Lems LPs with GigaLem as a guest, said just recently that now with clear physics mode, there is no reason to complain about hidden traps ;) .

The main issue with GigaLems is that it's only available for NeoLemmix 1.43, which does not have clear physics yet. That is what makes hidden traps infuriating! :D So of course, back when you joined the forum, everyone told you not to hide your traps because there was no clear physics mode yet! ;)

That's also the reason why I tried harder to avoid them in Lemmicks.

Quote
If a trap requires it to be hidden it's a badly designed trap! This fact isn't going to change regardless of how many people don't mind them.

That's not a fact; that's your opinion ;) . One can also easily make the case that it's a very cleverly designed trap!

I admit my sentence can be misread as if you were the only one against them; your statement, in contrast, can be read as if "hard-to-see traps are an absolute no-go" was a sentiment shared by everyone on the forum ;) .

As I said, my interpretation of the forum consensus is that people agree traps shouldn't be hidden more than necessary. But I haven't read of any widespread appeal so far to not use the boulder trap anymore ;) .

If the forum stance on hidden traps was that unanimous, I'm pretty sure we would have moved on to making traps "no overwrite"-objects by default (and disable any option to do it any other way). Even then, though, the boulder trap from the Dirt set or the grappling arm from Purple would still not be distinguishable from regular terrain.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 06:32:38 pm by Strato Incendus »
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2018, 07:32:04 pm »
Quote
And Arty and GigaLem have both made use of hidden traps and/or exits in their respective packs. ;) I think GigaLem has changed his stance on hidden traps pretty drastically since then, though, whereas Arty, in one of his SEB Lems LPs with GigaLem as a guest, said just recently that now with clear physics mode, there is no reason to complain about hidden traps ;) .

The main issue with GigaLems is that it's only available for NeoLemmix 1.43, which does not have clear physics yet. That is what makes hidden traps infuriating! :D So of course, back when you joined the forum, everyone told you not to hide your traps because there was no clear physics mode yet! ;)

I say it again : New players most likely don't use the true physics that much and will get furios running into hidden traps.

Using clear physics as a cheap way out argument for every design issue doesn't make it any better, it doesn't change the core problem about lying to users.

Again: The case that some people don't mind it doesn't make bad design any better. The fact that many people smoke doesn't make it healthier.

Quote
That's not a fact; that's your opinion ;) . One can also easily make the case that it's a very cleverly designed trap!

Sorry, that I would call a fact and I stand for that. Hiding things/features/functions/informations from users is bad design in any kind of program. Any kind of invisible trap can be replaced with a visible one and it's a straight upgrade and no, visuals don't matter here. Of course between the visible ones you wanna choose the best looking one.

Cleverly designed in a visual way don't make the bad design in general go away.

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2018, 10:07:05 pm »
@namida

Regarding Delta 2:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote
I also solved Delta 1. This feels extremely backroutey, but I can't see any other way to solve it.

:lem-mindblown:

Well... that certainly is a backroute if I ever did see one! I've updated the op with V3 of integral lemmings.
That backroute for Delta 1 should now be fixed. I also tweaked Epsilon 2 and 4 again to hopefully fix some backroutes there.
This means that the solutions from IchoTolot and namida for those levels will have to be revisited. ;P

Regarding hidden/obscured traps:
After some consideration I tend to agree that, in general, a trap should be made explicit and obvious as an obstacle.
Looking back at the original lemmings levels there are some really irritating occurrences of hidden traps being placed purely to trip up the player.

For example, the rock trap in Rendezvous at the Mountain, and that pointless icicle trap near the start of ICE SPY.
Possibly the worst offender is the icicle trap (again with this thing) in the level LoTs moRe wHeRe TheY caMe fRom.
That is just an insult to the player, having to deal with the annoying terrain and a random trap placed needlessly.

They usually added nothing anyway, since in those levels you are supposed to simply build over the trap.
By removing that trap (and maybe 1 builder), the level is basically unchanged.

I suppose there are arguments for traps that are concealed to a degree.
The level Easy when you know how might at first glance seem suspiciously easy to a new player, so they may anticipate something occurring as lemmings walk through that passage.
One could even make the case that the icicle trap in ICE SPY is foreshadowed by the level title. Although the icicle trap as a whole reeks of poor design decisions.

Further to this, with the advent of such programs as NeoLemmix, the issue of an unforeseen trap can be alleviated using the replay and rewind functionality.
Thus a player doesn't necessarily have to start the level again when their worker lemming dies randomly, they can step back and adjust their approach.

But counter to this yet again, the player may have thought of a specific solution to a level, and the existence of a hidden trap would probably ruin that solution.
This may possibly result in the whole solution being scrapped, leading to frustration since the player has wasted time on something that, in principle, should have worked.
If the trap is made explicit to begin with then this problem goes away completely.

I suppose in the end there are two things to consider:
- If the trap is meant as a true obstacle that the player will have to carefully plan around, make it obvious.
- If the trap is a "simple" trap that could be bypassed with a single builder, remove both it and the builder!


At any rate, I've modified my level Delta 6 to make the traps explicit. I think this actually improves the level visually as well! :thumbsup:


PS. Is anyone else bothered by the fact that the four crushers in the level Easy when you know how aren't aligned with the four pipe columns above?
That never made any sense to me as a kid.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 10:12:27 pm by ∫tan x dx »

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2018, 10:33:27 pm »
Resolved the levels.

Epsilon 2 could be intended now, while 4 should still be a backroute. ;P

Quote
PS. Is anyone else bothered by the fact that the four crushers in the level Easy when you know how aren't aligned with the four pipe columns above?
That never made any sense to me as a kid.

It's probably to fool the player about the masher positions. :P

Offline joshescue18

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2018, 11:07:15 pm »
I've finished this pack.

Offline kokopelli

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2018, 05:37:18 pm »
Hello
I've just downloaded the level pack and extracted the files into the levels folder.
I get the attached error message when i try to run a level. What am I missing?

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2018, 05:56:46 pm »
Hello
I've just downloaded the level pack and extracted the files into the levels folder.
I get the attached error message when i try to run a level. What am I missing?

Did you get the styles set that comes with NeoLemmix?

The installer from the mainpage https://www.neolemmix.com/ should get both: player + styles.

Otherwise if you got NeoLemmix from https://www.neolemmix.com/?page=neolemmix or another source you need to download the "NeoLemmix Styles" as well and extract them inside your NeoLemmix folder. Then you can actually see all the different styles inside your "styles" folder.

These styles represent all the different landscapes you can encounter in levels and their objects and terrain pieces are stored in pngs.

After you got these styles the player will actually find all landsacpes and you won't encounter any more missing objects in this pack. ;)

Offline kokopelli

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2018, 04:18:50 pm »
Hello
I've just downloaded the level pack and extracted the files into the levels folder.
I get the attached error message when i try to run a level. What am I missing?

Did you get the styles set that comes with NeoLemmix?

The installer from the mainpage https://www.neolemmix.com/ should get both: player + styles.

Otherwise if you got NeoLemmix from https://www.neolemmix.com/?page=neolemmix or another source you need to download the "NeoLemmix Styles" as well and extract them inside your NeoLemmix folder. Then you can actually see all the different styles inside your "styles" folder.

These styles represent all the different landscapes you can encounter in levels and their objects and terrain pieces are stored in pngs.

After you got these styles the player will actually find all landsacpes and you won't encounter any more missing objects in this pack. ;)

Thank you very much! This helped me a lot :thumbsup:

Offline Akseli

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2019, 09:54:24 pm »
Heya, I played 11 levels from v2 last autumn, and now updated my solutions for 18 levels for Integral Lemmings v3, my solutions are attached. I didn't yet solve the demanding feeling levels Epsilon 3: "A different kind of problem" and Delta 10: "Curse of the Lemmings!".

Yes, this is a remarkable little level pack release with rather ingenious solution elements. Especially with the new NeoLemmix skills there were impressively original ideas, and I have to agree with Icho that my favourite is Delta 5: "12 Steps to Success". I'm not sure if all of my solutions are acceptable or backroutes.