Author Topic: Integral Lemmings  (Read 10755 times)

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Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2018, 10:07:05 PM »
@namida

Regarding Delta 2:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote
I also solved Delta 1. This feels extremely backroutey, but I can't see any other way to solve it.

:lem-mindblown:

Well... that certainly is a backroute if I ever did see one! I've updated the op with V3 of integral lemmings.
That backroute for Delta 1 should now be fixed. I also tweaked Epsilon 2 and 4 again to hopefully fix some backroutes there.
This means that the solutions from IchoTolot and namida for those levels will have to be revisited. ;P

Regarding hidden/obscured traps:
After some consideration I tend to agree that, in general, a trap should be made explicit and obvious as an obstacle.
Looking back at the original lemmings levels there are some really irritating occurrences of hidden traps being placed purely to trip up the player.

For example, the rock trap in Rendezvous at the Mountain, and that pointless icicle trap near the start of ICE SPY.
Possibly the worst offender is the icicle trap (again with this thing) in the level LoTs moRe wHeRe TheY caMe fRom.
That is just an insult to the player, having to deal with the annoying terrain and a random trap placed needlessly.

They usually added nothing anyway, since in those levels you are supposed to simply build over the trap.
By removing that trap (and maybe 1 builder), the level is basically unchanged.

I suppose there are arguments for traps that are concealed to a degree.
The level Easy when you know how might at first glance seem suspiciously easy to a new player, so they may anticipate something occurring as lemmings walk through that passage.
One could even make the case that the icicle trap in ICE SPY is foreshadowed by the level title. Although the icicle trap as a whole reeks of poor design decisions.

Further to this, with the advent of such programs as NeoLemmix, the issue of an unforeseen trap can be alleviated using the replay and rewind functionality.
Thus a player doesn't necessarily have to start the level again when their worker lemming dies randomly, they can step back and adjust their approach.

But counter to this yet again, the player may have thought of a specific solution to a level, and the existence of a hidden trap would probably ruin that solution.
This may possibly result in the whole solution being scrapped, leading to frustration since the player has wasted time on something that, in principle, should have worked.
If the trap is made explicit to begin with then this problem goes away completely.

I suppose in the end there are two things to consider:
- If the trap is meant as a true obstacle that the player will have to carefully plan around, make it obvious.
- If the trap is a "simple" trap that could be bypassed with a single builder, remove both it and the builder!


At any rate, I've modified my level Delta 6 to make the traps explicit. I think this actually improves the level visually as well! :thumbsup:


PS. Is anyone else bothered by the fact that the four crushers in the level Easy when you know how aren't aligned with the four pipe columns above?
That never made any sense to me as a kid.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 10:12:27 PM by ∫tan x dx »

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2018, 10:33:27 PM »
Resolved the levels.

Epsilon 2 could be intended now, while 4 should still be a backroute. ;P

Quote
PS. Is anyone else bothered by the fact that the four crushers in the level Easy when you know how aren't aligned with the four pipe columns above?
That never made any sense to me as a kid.

It's probably to fool the player about the masher positions. :P

Online joshescue18

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2018, 11:07:15 PM »
I've finished this pack.

Offline kokopelli

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2018, 05:37:18 PM »
Hello
I've just downloaded the level pack and extracted the files into the levels folder.
I get the attached error message when i try to run a level. What am I missing?

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2018, 05:56:46 PM »
Hello
I've just downloaded the level pack and extracted the files into the levels folder.
I get the attached error message when i try to run a level. What am I missing?

Did you get the styles set that comes with NeoLemmix?

The installer from the mainpage https://www.neolemmix.com/ should get both: player + styles.

Otherwise if you got NeoLemmix from https://www.neolemmix.com/?page=neolemmix or another source you need to download the "NeoLemmix Styles" as well and extract them inside your NeoLemmix folder. Then you can actually see all the different styles inside your "styles" folder.

These styles represent all the different landscapes you can encounter in levels and their objects and terrain pieces are stored in pngs.

After you got these styles the player will actually find all landsacpes and you won't encounter any more missing objects in this pack. ;)

Offline kokopelli

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2018, 04:18:50 PM »
Hello
I've just downloaded the level pack and extracted the files into the levels folder.
I get the attached error message when i try to run a level. What am I missing?

Did you get the styles set that comes with NeoLemmix?

The installer from the mainpage https://www.neolemmix.com/ should get both: player + styles.

Otherwise if you got NeoLemmix from https://www.neolemmix.com/?page=neolemmix or another source you need to download the "NeoLemmix Styles" as well and extract them inside your NeoLemmix folder. Then you can actually see all the different styles inside your "styles" folder.

These styles represent all the different landscapes you can encounter in levels and their objects and terrain pieces are stored in pngs.

After you got these styles the player will actually find all landsacpes and you won't encounter any more missing objects in this pack. ;)

Thank you very much! This helped me a lot :thumbsup:

Offline Akseli

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2019, 09:54:24 PM »
Heya, I played 11 levels from v2 last autumn, and now updated my solutions for 18 levels for Integral Lemmings v3, my solutions are attached. I didn't yet solve the demanding feeling levels Epsilon 3: "A different kind of problem" and Delta 10: "Curse of the Lemmings!".

Yes, this is a remarkable little level pack release with rather ingenious solution elements. Especially with the new NeoLemmix skills there were impressively original ideas, and I have to agree with Icho that my favourite is Delta 5: "12 Steps to Success". I'm not sure if all of my solutions are acceptable or backroutes.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2021, 10:40:24 PM »
Hi tan x,

I have solved all the levels, so here are my replays and feedback, as well as the link to the LP: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbp2m4KlFpJumrLs0c9wtHb1Yey95r8Rs. Enjoy, and I'm happy to hear that you're enjoying it so much :)

General Feedback

Wow, this is a really well-done first pack! I was very impressed. Even though it's only 20 levels, it's still a hard pack! Immediately from the get-go, the pack doesn't pull any punches whatsoever. The entire pack is puzzly, and I think there's only 1 or 2 breathers in the entire pack. The levels are generally small, but most of them are deceivingly difficult. This pack requires some very neat tricks that will be needed in some other level packs, so I absolutely recommend giving this one a go! In particular, I saw all of these in some form in Icho's United pack, so it's clear that he got a lot of inspiration for his levels from your pack. Quite honestly, I don't know if I would had been able to figure out some of these tricks if this happened to be one of the very first level packs I've ever played. Because I started playing this pack long after I have solved so many other level packs, this explains why I'm already very familiar with the tricks and therefore I had an easier time on those levels that require them, in contrast to those who might not be as familiar with them or haven't seen them before.

Epsilon Rank Feedback

Quite a nice rank here, although not an easy one despite being the first one of the pack In particular, the pack immediately starts off very puzzly. Also, I unfortunately found out after the first 5 levels that some of the levels have ONML tracks preassigned, so I fixed that by adding in the Dos ONML tracks in after a few LP videos. I even had to check to see if there was anything wrong with the music, as I expected the Can-Can to play on Epsilon 1. However, when I opened it in the editor, that track that plays on it is indeed intended, so good to know there wasn't anything wrong with the music :laugh: Other than ONML, the tracks are from the Genesis port.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Delta Rank Feedback

I will have to agree with Icho here as well, this was a really difficult rank.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Once again, a job well-done on this pack, and I look forward to playing your second pack, All Hallow's Eve, in about a month or two, after I get some of my other planned LPs of level packs done. I especially love the level pack name, as it's kind of a reference to your user name, with the integral symbol, as well as calculus, one of my huge math area favorites, along with algebra! :) Looking forward to your remarks on my solutions, although as Icho said, no hurries at all. I myself will likely be very busy in the coming weeks once I start work and therefore I won't have as much time to play Lemmings. Still, I'm going to do the best I can with the huge amount of content I still need to play through.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2021, 09:18:18 PM »
Hi Kaywhyn,

I'm so very glad you enjoyed playing though my level pack! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
It's been a pleasure to watch you play through each level and share your thoughts.

Epsilon Rank Responses:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Delta Rank Responses:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2021, 11:05:14 PM »
Hi all! I'm pleased to announce an update to Integral Lemmings!

Recently, there has been some interesting discussions about the design philosophies of lemmings levels. Namely, many level packs are released with "specific solutions only", and an exact skillset.
While this is certainly very popular amongst designers and solvers, it does have the potential to reduce the creativity of a player. If a player discovers a solution other than what was intended, this leads to the dreaded backrouting that all designers fear.

Now, usually these alternative solutions come in the form of tricks or terrain exploits that the designer overlooked or did not consider (which happens very often in my case... :P).
But at the same time, part of the joy of solving a level comes from finding your own solution, even if it's not intended!

Thus, I've created 10 levels which seek to defy this trend. The levels in the new Alpha rank are all opened ended levels, with somewhat generous skillsets. They have no set solution, but are by no means a walk in the park! :evil:
The player is invited to find their own solutions, the more interesting the better!

Download link and changelog is available in the OP.

Enjoy! :thumbsup:

Offline Armani

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2021, 10:27:20 AM »
played newly added Alpha rank. 8-) I will hopefully play the rest of the pack next time.
Pretty much most of the levels are open-ended with more than enough skills, so for extra fun and challenges, I set some rules for myself while playing several levels. 8-)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It seems like I prefer levels with limited skillset  :P But there were still some decent levels.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2021, 03:59:22 PM by Armani »
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2021, 09:02:52 PM »
Hi Armani! I've had a look at your replays, and I am extremely impressed by the creativity of your solutions! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

My thoughts on your replays are in the spoiler:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I've really enjoyed watching your replays! Well done! :thumbsup:

Offline Swerdis

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2021, 01:43:45 PM »
Hi tan x,

having finished "Integral Lemmings" today, I want to write down some notes. First thing I want to say is, it's a magnificent pack. Almost all of the levels are of a high standard and absolutely well-thought. I didn't see many differences in terms of difficulty throughout the ranks, though. I like "Delta" and "Epsilon" a bit better than "Alpha", but that's mainly because I prefer the original eight skills over the new ones.

Some thoughts about the individual levels:

Epsilon:

Unconventional Techniques: It's always a good thing when a level pack starts with an outstanding level and this here surely is one. Maybe it's even the best level of the rank. The key trick is well-hidden and, at least in my opinion, can not be bypassed - which makes the level even better. To be honest, while doing this level, I didnt think that I could ever solve the pack.
What Lems beneath: Also a hard one. I tried to build from the bottom but it didn't come to a good end. Not sure if the bomber in the middle is needed there, but if so, it's an amazing little trick.
A different kind of problem: I agree with Icho here - this exits here are obstacles and goals in one which is a great idea. For me, this was the hardest level in the epsilon rank. For a long time, I was always one builder short.
Send only the finest Lemmings: This level reminded me a little  of "Circular Wavelength" from Lemmings Plus I. It's fun to play though not on the very hard side. Most difficult part is the beginning. Overall, one of my favourites.
Precission engineered Lemming: I knew immediately what do here, so that only the execution was the problem, especially with the hatch at the right side. Having solved the level, I looked what Icho and Kaywhyn had done here, and that's when I realised that my solution is probably a backroute.
Round the bend: A breather for many, that's why you moved it back to position 3. For me, this level was not THAT easy.
Don't forget the builders... Probably my least favourite level of the rank. Having played so many levels pack, I've seen everything here too often. Which does not mean it's a bad level. I see big problems here for novice players (but they wouldn't even reach this level)
Tarry not!: Another favourite of mine and a real time-cruncher. Took me a while to bring things in the right order here.
What have we learned so far: A fantastic closer of the first rank. Surprisingly it was a quick solve for me. Figuring out the left side was hardest for me. A very good level title, too!

Delta:

Entrapment: Entirely trick based. Stunned me at first, but when I found out what to do with the stoner, the rest was a  walk in the park.
Panic room: One of the best. Many different solution, but none of these is trivial to figure out  - although this level looks so simple. This is really great art.
Any suggestions: Icho considered this one the weakest in the pack, but I like it. I had no idea how to stop the platformer at the top, so I used a builders there and had to spare one later. So I backrouted this level.
A Humdrum Conundrum: This was a quick solve, but only since I knew this trick from a level in "Art Lems". (which wasn't required there, but I found it out by myself)
Oh, those talented Lemmings: Along with Panic room the best level in "Delta" for me. I love how everything falls into line here. and there is still variety. For example, Icho, Kaywhyn and I used the blocker at three different spots. 
12 Steps to Success: Solving this was hard work! I'm not good with stackers, so maybe that's why its not among my favourites levels here, but I can definitely see why it is for others.
The Incredible Squashing Machine: Easy one which is nice from time to time. It's also a good one and I thin I found the intended solution here.
Make the most of your Lemmings: This was the easiest levels of the entire pack for me (including Alpha). Like others, I love 1-of-everything-levels and this one is no exception.
DEAR LITTLE BEASTIES: A lot of precision is required here. I exhausted everything to the max to save this dearly needed Extra-Lemming and it finally worked.
Curse of the Lemmings: This one was easier than I thought. I found a relatively clean solution, so I could spare some skills in the end.

Alpha:

The Locked Room Mysteries: It was pretty clear what to do here. I must say I don't like this digger-trick that much, I think it's pretty repetitive. Easy level, though.
Unfriendly Neighbours: This really caused me some trouble. In lots of Zombie-based levels it's easy to find way to get rid of these beasties, but this was not the case here. So my solution is completely timing-based which makes this level - if it's intended - absolutely great!
These Lemmings and those Lemmings: I bombed through the block and used the lower part of the level in the end only. So I probably missed something - it felt like a backroute.
Crowd Control: I didnt' find this level easy at all and had a hard time to squeeze the Lemmings. Since it turned out to be impossible with the skills available, I played with the Release-rate a lot. But this was not necessary as I found out eventually.
Thick and thin: Phew, this was a mess. To be honest, I still don't know how to get all these Lemmings up to the exit. What saved me was the fact that I could lose some. The hardest level in the Alpha rank, at least for me.
A Sorting problem: My favourite level from the Alpha rank. I was clear from the beginning which exit the swimmers had to use, but I could isolate them in the beginning - everyhting else fell in line then.
The Big Dig: I feel that I backrouted this one since I just made it right on time and with a totally direct approach.
Equivalent Exchange: They first level I EVER played with laserers. I really wonder how Armani solved this with both sides not interacting with each other. It was a difficult one, especially with the "new" skill for me, but I found a quite elegant solution. I like this one!
Fun with Lasers: Compared with the level beforce, I made a big mess out of this. I don't know if my solution has something to do with what you had in your mind, but at least, it worked.
Escape from Zombie Island: A worthy conclusion of great pack. I was familiar with this basher-trick and used the digger-trick form Alpha 1 again, but at the wrong side of the level, at first.

All my solutions can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/user/Vidusaka/playlists
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 08:39:26 PM by Swerdis »

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2021, 11:08:28 PM »
Hi Swerdis! I'm glad to see your solutions for my pack! I must admit, when I saw the link to your playlist, I immediately binge watched all the solutions. :P

Here are my thoughts on your solutions:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Thank you very much for all your kind words! I'm glad you enjoyed the pack. :thumbsup:

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Integral Lemmings
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2021, 11:11:58 PM »
Hi all!

An update to Integral Lemmings has been posted. Check the OP for a download link and changelog!

Thanks! :thumbsup: