Author Topic: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records  (Read 21627 times)

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Offline LemSteven

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Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« on: June 26, 2011, 07:19:28 am »
I've decided to compile all of the maximum lemmings saved records for the various Lemmings games.  I'm hoping to create a definitive source for all of the lemmings saved records we have established on the forums over the past several years.  Like in Clam Spammer's glitch thread, there will be some variability among the various ports.  If anyone has information on any of the other ports, feel free to contribute below and I'll add it in this post.

DOS Lemmings
(100% unless noted)

Fun 3: 47/50
Fun 6: 48/50
Fun 18: 65/70
Tricky 15: 7/10
Tricky 16: 46/50
Tricky 17: 48/50
Tricky 18: 9/10
Tricky 23: 79/80
Taxing 7: 79/80
Taxing 19: 65/70
Taxing 27: 77/80
Taxing 28: 70/80
Mayhem 5: 76/80
Mayhem 10: 73/75
Mayhem 19: 47/50
Mayhem 26: 76/80
Mayhem 29: 78/80

GameBoy Lemmings
(100% unless noted)

Fun 3: 9/14
Fun 6: 12/14
Fun 23: 13/14
Tricky 1: 13/14
Tricky 3: 13/14
Tricky 6: 12/14
Tricky 13: 12/14
Tricky 17: 9/10
Tricky 18: 13/14
Tricky 19: 2/14
Tricky 25: 13/14
Taxing 7: 13/14
Taxing 10: 13/14
Taxing 11: 10/14
Taxing 20: 13/14
Taxing 21: 12/14
Mayhem 2: 13/14
Mayhem 13: 13/14
Mayhem 15: 11/14
Mayhem 18: 13/14
Mayhem 20: 13/14
Mayhem 25: 12/14

Genesis Lemmings
(100% unless noted)

Fun 3: 47/50
Fun 6: 48/50
Fun 18: 65/70
Tricky 15: 7/10
Tricky 16: 46/50
Tricky 17: 48/50
Tricky 18: 9/10
Tricky 21: 49/50
Tricky 23: 98/100
Taxing 13: 49/50
Taxing 14: 49/50
Taxing 17: 48/50
Taxing 19: 65/70
Taxing 25: 79/80
Mayhem 5: 76/80
Mayhem 14: 48/50
Mayhem 19: 47/50
Mayhem 29: 84/100
Present 2: 45/50
Present 7: 99/100
Present 16: 98/100
Sunsoft 6: 54/60
Sunsoft 22: 49/50
Sunsoft 24: 49/50
Sunsoft 27: 1/4

Macintosh Lemmings
(100% unless noted)

Fun 3: 47/50
Fun 6: 48/50
Fun 18: 65/70
Tricky 15: 6/10
Tricky 16: 45/50
Tricky 17: 48/50
Tricky 18: 9/10
Tricky 23: 76/80
Taxing 6: 49/50
Taxing 7: 79/80
Taxing 19: 65/70
Taxing 27: 77/80
Taxing 28: 70/80
Mayhem 2: 79/80 (100% "should work" but not confirmed yet)
Mayhem 5: 76/80
Mayhem 10: 70/75 (improvable)
Mayhem 19: 47/50
Mayhem 26: 72/80
Mayhem 29: 75/80 (improvable)

Master System Lemmings
(100% unless noted)

Fun 3: 17/20
Fun 6: 18/20
Fun 18: 15/20
Tricky 15: 15/20
Tricky 17: 18/20
Taxing 19: 15/20
Taxing 27: 19/20
Taxing 28: 17/20
Mayhem 19: 13/20
Mayhem 26: 10/20

NES Lemmings
(100% unless noted)

Fun 3: 9/14
Fun 6: 12/14
Tricky 1: 13/14
Tricky 3: 13/14
Tricky 6: 12/14
Tricky 13: 12/14
Tricky 17: 9/10
Tricky 18: 13/14
Tricky 19: 2/14
Tricky 25: 13/14
Taxing 7: 13/14
Taxing 9: 12/14
Taxing 10: 13/14
Taxing 11: 10/14
Taxing 20: 13/14
Taxing 21: 12/14
Mayhem 1: 13/14
Mayhem 2: 13/14
Mayhem 3: 11/12
Mayhem 13: 12/14
Mayhem 15: 11/14
Mayhem 18: 13/14
Mayhem 25: 12/14

Oh No! More Lemmings
(100% unless noted)

Crazy 3: 48/50
Crazy 10: 79/80
Crazy 11: 40/80
Crazy 14: 48/50
Wild 5: 77/80
Wild 13: 77/80
Wild 15: 48/50
Wild 18: 78/80
Wicked 1: 59/60
Wicked 4: 49/50
Wicked 7: 76/80
Wicked 8: 46/50
Wicked 10: 49/50
Wicked 12: 79/80
Wicked 15: 48/50
Wicked 16: 5/6
Havoc 10: 17/21
Havoc 20: 53/60

Holiday Lemmings
(100% unless noted)

Flurry 16: 49/50
Blitz 12: 79/80
Blitz 15: 10/15
Blitz 16: 48/50
Frost 6: 69/70
Frost 14: 45/50
Hail 2: 76/80
Hail 6: 46/80

Covox Lemmings
(100% unless noted)

Tricky 2: 20/21

The Official Lemmings Companion
(100% unless noted)

Fun 2: 79/80
Tricky 2: 73/80
Taxing 4: 79/80
Mayhem 3: 78/80

Lemmings 2: The Tribes (DOS)

All 100%

Lemmings 3D (PC)

Fun
1: 79/80          2: 79/80          3: 29/30          4: 19/20          5: 23/30         
6: 36/40          7: 5/6          8: 38/40          9: 75/80          10: 20/20         
11: 71/80          12: 74/80          13: 20/40          14: 74/80          15: 36/40         
16: 76/80          17: 10/10          18: 70/80          19: 78/80          20: 26/30         

Tricky
21: 8/10          22: 38/40          23: 29/30          24: 27/30          25: 76/80         
26: 18/25          27: 36/40          28: 79/80          29: 36/40          30: 34/40         
31: 36/50          32: 74/80          33: 34/40          34: 76/80          35: 76/80         
36: 37/40          37: 35/40          38: 70/80          39: 57/60          40: 55/60         

Taxing
41: 74/80          42: 73/80          43: 72/80          44: 79/80          45: 74/80
46: 37/40          47: 75/80          48: 72/80          49: 74/80          50: 78/80         
51: 77/80          52: 80/80          53: 77/80          54: 75/80          55: 20/20         
56: 48/50          57: 40/40          58: 69/80          59: 80/80          60: 39/40         

Mayhem
61: 78/80          62: 55/60          63: 77/80          64: 18/20          65: 17/20         
66: 73/80          67: 78/80          68: 38/40          69: 78/80          70: 76/80         
71: 77/80          72: 35/40          73: 63/80          74: 38/40          75: 40/40         
76: 34/40          77: 19/20          78: 30/30          79: 79/80          80: 37/40         

Lemmings Revolution
(100% unless noted)

1-3: 17/20
2-1: 26/30
3-2: 17/20
3-3: 18/20
3-5: 96/100
6-5: 8/10
7-6: 96/100
8-4: 46/50
9-2: 49/50
10-12: 19/20
11-7: 49/50
11-10: 57/60
12-9: 99/100

Last Edit - 11 Aug 19: Improved Lemmings 3D Level 27 from 34/40 to 36/40.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 05:06:04 am by LemSteven »

Offline namida

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2011, 09:46:49 pm »
I'm pretty much the master of backrouting on L3D (although I have to admit I never found the 100% route to Castle Peralus until I was told about it), so I'll have a look when I get a chance and see if I can improve any of those.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2011, 12:06:00 am »
There's definitely a couple in there that I see as having a chance to be improved on.  However I am leaving on vacation tomorrow and so I may not be able to update the scores until I get back in just over a week.

Edit: I just improved one of those scores myself.  L3D Level 30 (Tooten Lemming) is improved to 34/40.

Offline Pooty

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2011, 05:47:53 pm »
You can rescue 77/80 on level 19 of 3D Lemmings (Attack of the 50 ft. Lemmings).

Quote from: Spoilers
Note: The direction to turn the lemmings (in brackets) is always from the perspective of the lemming, and never of the camera.

1: Make the first lemming a turner (left) immediately.
2: Increase the release rate to 69.
3: Wait until 78 lemmings are out.
4: Increase release rate to 79.
5: Commence bashing the wall to your right (towards the 50 ft. lemming's face). 79 lemmings should be out when you begin bashing.
6: After two bashes (when you can see the lemming from outside), convert the basher into a turner (left)
7: Go back inside the lemming's head. Two sets of lemmings should be in there; a single lemming, followed by a bunched up group. Highlight the single lemming (or if it's easier, use Virtual Lemming).
8: Immediately after the highlighted lemming uses the second turner, make him a basher.
9: After one bash, make him dig. Now stop highlighting him.

You now have a long wait. With 2:37 minutes left, some lemmings will drop right in front of the exit. They will drop in two sets of two. Ignore the first set.

10: The second group of lemmings will come in from the left hand side, and walk towards the right. You must hurry and make one of them a turner (left) before they walk off. You have to do this before they're halfway across the block. If you've done it correctly, you'll rescue 77 lemmings. If not, you'll only rescue 40.
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2011, 07:46:37 am »
^ Ooh, nice backroute!  I've added it to the list.  Well done! :thumbsup:

Offline Pooty

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2011, 07:37:31 pm »
A couple of other 3D Lemmings changes.

I improved level 19 (Attack of the Fifty Ft Lemmings) further to 78/80.
Quote from: Spoilers
1. Increase the release rate to 99.
2. Use the first turner to direct the lemmings at the deflector block (as per the usual solution).
3. Highlight the ~50th lemming that comes out.
4. On the 50 ft. lemming's arm, bash into its hair. It'd be a good idea to use Virtual Lemming at this point.
5. When the highlighted lemming drops into the armpit area, bash once, followed by digging.
6. The lemmings will eventually land two blocks in front of the exit. Because of this, there's no rush in using a second turner to direct the other lemmings to the exit.

Level 24 (Fore!) only has 30 lemmings, so it should read 27/30. I haven't found a way to improve on this score.

Level 28 (All Around the Watchtower) can be improved to 79/80.
Quote from: Spoilers
Build into the entrance instead of using a blocker.
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2011, 02:42:11 am »
Nice job!  I've added those scores to the table along with an improvement of my own: L3D Level 18 (Corkscrew Digger) is now up to 68/80 instead of 67.

EDIT 12-May-2014:  Corkscrew Digger now improved to 69/80.  Original post updated.

Offline Pooty

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2011, 09:41:21 pm »
I'm going to dump my findings on the Master System version in this thread. It has been my forum signature since I've joined these forums, but they could do with a home. :D

Master System Lemmings
(100% unless noted)

Fun 3: 17/20
Fun 6: 18/20
Fun 18: 15/20
Tricky 15: 15/20
Tricky 17: 18/20
Taxing 19: 15/20
Taxing 27: 19/20
Taxing 28: 17/20
Mayhem 19: 13/20
Mayhem 26: 10/20

[Edit] Fun 11 is now at 100%.
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline alfonz1986

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2011, 12:54:01 am »
Yo, the records need to be updated for my 100% solution to Wicked 9  :)

As mentioned in my post here http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=12.390

Offline DoubleU

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2011, 07:48:08 pm »
I've decided to compile all of the maximum lemmings saved records for the various Lemmings games.  I'm hoping to create a definitive source for all of the lemmings saved records we have established on the forums over the past several years.  Like in Clam Spammer's glitch thread, there will be some variability among the various ports.  If anyone has information on any of the other ports, feel free to contribute below and I'll add it in this post.

DOS Lemmings
(100% unless noted)

Fun 3: 47/50
Fun 6: 48/50
Fun 18: 65/70
Tricky 15: 7/10
Tricky 16: 46/50
Tricky 17: 48/50
Tricky 18: 9/10
Tricky 23: 79/80
Taxing 7: 79/80
Taxing 19: 65/70
Taxing 27: 77/80
Taxing 28: 70/80
Mayhem 5: 76/80
Mayhem 10: 73/75
Mayhem 19: 47/50
Mayhem 26: 76/80
Mayhem 29: 78/80
I'm curious as to how this can be possible.  Ephraim Vishniac's best results were:
Quote
These are the twenty "imperfect" levels.  I haven't discovered or
heard of better solutions for these in a couple of years, so these
might really be the outer limits.

Fun 3 Tailor-made for blockers Save 47 of 50. Need three blockers to direct traffic.

Fun 6 A task for blockers and bombers Save 48 of 50. Need two bombers to break barriers.

Fun 18 Let's block and blow Save 65 of 70. Need five bombers to break five levels.

Tricky 15 Ozone friendly Lemmings Save 6 of 10. (7 of 10 in PC version.) Need four bombers to dig.

Tricky 16 Luvly Jubly Save 45 of 50.  Need five bombers to dig.

Tricky 17 Diet Lemmingaid Save 48 of 50. Need two bombers to dig.

Tricky 18 It's Lemmingentry Watson Save 9 of 10. Need one bomber to dig. But what are the two builders for?

Tricky 23 From The Boundary Line Save 53 of 80. No way to save the ones that turn around.

Taxing 6 Compression Method 1 Save 45 of 50. Four will be crushed, and blocker is bombed.

Taxing 7 Every Lemming for himself!!! Save 79 of 80. Need to use one blocker/bomber for crowd control.

Taxing 16 Mary Poppins` land Save 79 of 80. Need one blocker/bomber to hold back the crowd.

Taxing 19 Bomboozal Save 65 of 70. Need five bombers to drop five levels.

Taxing 27 Call in the bomb squad Save 75 of 80. Need two blockers, 3 blocker/bombers.

Taxing 28 POOR WEE CREATURES! Save 63 of 80. It takes time to build a landing place. This is the fastest I can do it.

Mayhem 2 The Boiler Room Save 79 of 80. One bomber clears the exit path.

Mayhem 5 Down, along, up. In that order Save 76 of 80.  Four blockers turn the builders as needed.

Mayhem 10 Pillars of Hercules Save 70 of 75.  It takes time to build a landing place. This is the fastest I can do it.

Mayhem 19 Time to get up! Save 47 of 50. Two bombers blast the first barrier, one does the second.

Mayhem 26 The Steel Mines of Kessel Save 72 of 80.  Six blocker/bombers blast the thick barrier, one restrains the crowd, one cuts the thin barrier.*

Mayhem 29 Save Me Save 75 of 80. Two blockers guard the entry landing, one turns the ramp, two guide arrivals at the exit.*

*From the Dfoofnik (Dfoofnik@aol.cam):

The humble student LemDon received praise from the Grand Wizard for finding the True Path on Mayhem 26 : using the many BUILDs as delays, five of a 6-Lem team sacrificed themselves to save the remaining 75. This is the Low-Road solution.

(Then he added: "The actual save is 74, since the initial Blocker sacs as well. Sorry.")

Having received my Master robes, I concentrated on the task of Mayhem 29, where my best had been only 74 saved. I discovered an entirely *new* route to the west, saving 76 of our little friends. The needless sacrifice of Ramp-turners was stopped forever...

A number of these differ, and some aren't on the list.  Care to explain how these records were beaten?  (Oh, and it should be dot-com, not dot-cam, of course.)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2011, 08:15:18 pm »
Ephraim Vishniac's list is as dated as Windows 3.1 is today.  Not only were the glitches not well-known at the time, but in some cases they just plainly overlooked the correct approach altogether (I'm looking at you, Tricky 23).  Also, it's unclear whether Ephraim originally worked with the PC version; the PC version has some important changes that would affect some of the results.  (Taxing 27, Mayhem 26 and Mayhem 29, although even on non-PC versions Ephraim's list is still not optimal for all three)

It's yet another example where it sucks that things posted on the Internet stay there forever. ;P

If you have Lemmix set up, please start with some of the replays posted here.  It probably doesn't cover everything but should address a decent number of the improved results over Ephraim's list.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2011, 12:29:05 am »
Not trying to continually pick on Ephraim and the fine folks back in the ancient days before I was around though I admit it's fun to poke, but to illustrate the weaknesses in that list, here's a replay Taxing 6 going through the lower route with the traps, but saving 46/50 rather than 45/50 as that list reported.

So yeah, let's just say our list pwn theirs and leave it at that. ;P

Offline DoubleU

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2011, 01:10:52 am »
Ephraim Vishniac's list is as dated as Windows 3.1 is today.  Not only were the glitches not well-known at the time, but in some cases they just plainly overlooked the correct approach altogether (I'm looking at you, Tricky 23).  Also, it's unclear whether Ephraim originally worked with the PC version; the PC version has some important changes that would affect some of the results.  (Taxing 27, Mayhem 26 and Mayhem 29, although even on non-PC versions Ephraim's list is still not optimal for all three)
Ephraim used a Mac.  It says in his document...if I could find it somewhere.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2011, 02:22:36 am »
Ephraim used a Mac.  It says in his document...if I could find it somewhere.
Okay, I thought that was the case as well.  This of course further confuses their list, as I'm pretty sure Dfoofnik reported PC Lemmings results under the addendum to Ephraim's list.  In particular, I'm only aware of the DOS version giving you 20 builders rather than 10 in most other versions including the Mac.

I have actually dabbled a little on Mac Lemmings as well.  I think the current status wrt to the Mac version goes something like this:

Tricky 16: needs to be confirmed whether 46/50 works on Mac or not, given the well-known difference (though it's technically a terrain difference arising from Mac's high-res graphics, IIRC) on Tricky 15.

Tricky 23: I think you might lose 1 or 2 more on the Mac due to one more mining stroke needed to stop lemmings lost, I don't remember the result I ended up with.  It's certainly far better than 53/80 as the assertion "no way to save the ones that turn around" is wrong.

Taxing 6: I've fully confirmed that one on the Mac, you can save 49/50.  You can use a falling exploder to take out the upper-right portion of steel, lowering the fall to safety.

Taxing 16: I haven't bother to execute the 100% solution on that one, but I've checked all the relevant game mechanics and they are all the same on the Mac version, so it should be possible on the Mac as well.  This solution is glitch-free.

Taxing 27: the sliding glitch  The no-glitch lose-3 PC solution should work just fine on the Mac as well.  The water doesn't reach high enough to affect the PC solution.

Taxing 28: the climber glitch used here has been confirmed to work on the Mac the exact same way it does on the PC, so the 70/80 solution likely works on the Mac as well.  Although, one thing I might need to check is what shape you end up with for an interrupted bash stroke (again due to hi-res graphics).  In any event, I first reported a lose-14 solution that doesn't use any glitches on the PC, so that solution likely works on the Mac too and is still better than the list's.

Mayhem 2: sliding glitch again, so should work.

Mayhem 10: sliding glitch for the lose 2 solution, should work depending on the interrupted bash stroke (see Taxing 28).  Even if that doesn't work, we've found lose 3 and lose 4 solutions that use other behaviors which also work on the Mac.

Mayhem 26: this one is special because terrain differences (hi-res graphics again) on the Mac forces notably higher usage of bombers compared with other versions, making it nearly impossible just to achieve the 72/80.  So I'm not 100% sure yet what the record should be on that level.  I can tell you though that on other versions with lo-res graphics and only 10 of the 3 given types of skills, you can still achieve lose 5 (as confirmed on eg. SNES).

Mayhem 29: the PC version relies on a glitch and the lack of water.  However, the Mac version allows better bridge-stretching facing left, so the "build west" route actually still works on the Mac even without using the glitch and with presence of water.  So depending on how much builders you need (and thus how many spare left), I think you can still do something like lose 3 if not lose 2.  Will need more testing to confirm.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2011, 12:04:04 pm »
Started play Lemmings Revolution, will see how far I'll get over the Xmas holidays.  Finished 4 columns so far.

Lemmings Revolution
<snip>3-5: 94/100

Typo on this one perhaps?  96/100 is pretty straightforward.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2011, 11:59:41 pm »
Typo on this one perhaps?  96/100 is pretty straightforward.

Sadly, no, that was not a typo, just an embarrassing oversight.  :-[  Somehow I thought that a couple of those falls weren't survivable.

EDIT: Taking another look through my scores, I improved 11-7 (Don't Let them out!) to 49/50, glitch-free.  Fairly straightforward, actually.

EDIT 2: I also improved 11-10 (Lemming be thy name...) to 57/60.  This one takes advantage of the fact that "oh-noers" can survive splat falls, as well as stacking blockers to make the falls survivable for the others.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2011, 09:49:30 pm »
Finally, I have a non-trivial improvement to the Lemmings Revolution records! 8)

5-5: 49/50

(Level name is "One Way Ticket".) Now improved to 50/50. It actually didn't turn out to use much in the way of new glitches, but it's still a bit challenging due to the limited number of skills, and even the time limit forcing you to multitask (mainly because the limited skills force you to do certain parts rather slowly).  Solution given in spoilers below:

Quote from: highlight to read
The basic idea is to send a lemming through and onto the thin platform where the exit is at, and have him ultimately bash to clear away the final obstacle before the exit, the obstacle you normally need to mine, dig, or bomb through.  So you no longer need to use a bomber to clear one of the obstacles.

To send the lemming through the thin platform, send one climber up the one-way wall with the switch, and have him build starting at the right edge of the wall.  When builder hits his head and turns around, let him float down and then climb back up, and then build again at the edge of the build bridge.  Repeat this one more time (so 3 builders used so far).  Finally, instead of building yet one more time to connect with the thin ceiling platform overhead, have the lemming block at the edge of the build bridge.

Now send a second climber up the one-way wall.  As soon as he turns around from the blocker, have him build left to connect with the thin platform overhead.  This lemming will get "stuck" in the thin platform and will be able to climb through it facing right (which we want so it heads away from the exit after emerging).  When he turns around facing left, have him build towards the obstacle overhead.  When he hits his head and turns around, wait for him to head back up to the edge of the build bridge and build one more time.  With this extra build brick, you can finally be high enough to clear the obstacle overhead with a basher.  As for the blocker, use the "reset a bomber" glitch to free him (use a basher as the spare skill).

You've used up 6 builders and 2 bashers at this point, plus a few miscellaneous skills.  This leaves you with just enough to finish the rest of the level normally.  Because the moves above can take a long time to complete (due to the need to wait for the lemming to float back down and climb back up multiple times, to save skills), you'll likely need to multitask "the rest of the level" with some or all of the above moves.
.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2011, 12:05:59 am »
^ Nice job!  I'll go ahead and update the OP.  The sad thing is I knew of that climber trick (I've used it to backroute "The Legend of Smelly Belly"), but somehow never thought to apply it to "One Way Ticket".

I worked out most of the Lemmings Revolution records a few years ago, and I've been making occasional improvements ever since, so most of my records are fairly polished.  But, as you've demonstrated, it sometimes helps to have an extra set of eyes looking at them!

Offline finlay

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2011, 02:29:27 am »
Wait a minute... how do you save 100% on Classic 7 in L2? That's the one that allows you to lose 4 for gold. :XD:

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2011, 05:01:32 am »
Wait a minute... how do you save 100% on Classic 7 in L2? That's the one that allows you to lose 4 for gold. :XD:

That one takes advantage of the crawling trick, in which a lemming stuck in the terrain "crawls" up until he is free.  Using a basher and some builders, you can create a setup that gets all of the lemmings stuck in the wall immediately to the left of the entrance, and they will all crawl up to the top of the steel.  From there, the rest of the level is easy.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2011, 07:31:18 am »
Back to Lemmings Revolution, I'm now around the levels in column 8 at this point, and just found another improvement:  8-2 ("Locked In") improved to 14/14.

This one uses the climber glitch again to build/climb through a thin steel platform, as well as the glitch LemSteven contributed about builders and retractable walls.  It uses all 20 builders (doesn't look like you can use any less, but feel free to prove me otherwise), plus a climber and a floater.  Solution below, with reference screenshots in the attached zip file:

Quote from: highlight to read
After 1 lemming comes out of the blue entrance, immediately lower its RR to 1.  So the first 2 normal lemmings will be the first to emerge from the exiting teleport, followed by the first 2 water lemmings from the other entrance, some distance away from the first 2 normal lemmings.

First lemming should start building when he's roughly a build brick's length away from the (opened) retractable wall.  The goal is to achieve screenshot 08-02_saveall_start_A.png, where half the length of a build brick exists outside the retractable wall.  Due to the way builders interact with retractable walls, as you see in the screenshot, it will immediately turn around and continue building left.

Second lemming should get up on that half a build brick laid and start building immediately.  Again the retractable wall will cause it to continue building left, and you end up with the build bridge stacked against the one started by the first lemming.  See screenshot 08-02_saveall_start_B.png.  The thickness of the stacked bridges will block the rest of the crowd from entering the "locked in" area (and you will be just fast enough to establish the minimum thickness before any lemming can get through).

The first lemming will eventually get sucked back into the teleport in mid-build, but the second lemming, as he started building further to the right, will avoid the teleport.  When he finished building, make him continue build left again, but stretch the bridge (see screenshot 08-02_saveall_start_C.png).  The stretching is necessary so that when you eventually fall off from the bridge, you won't get sucked in by the teleport.  When the lemming hits his head during his building, let him turn and walk into the "locked in" area, then use a climber to get him out, and have him follow the bridge and float down into the bottom area of the level.

Now refer to screenshots 08-02_saveall_A.png thru C for the placement of the remaining builders.  The order goes as follows:

1) build towards the entrance platform until he hits his head and turn around (see screenshot A, lower bridge).
2) build towards the steel wall to seal up the way on the right (see screenshot C, bottom, right-going bridge left of lava pool).
3) repeatedly build left towards the thin steel platform with the laser gate until you're stuck (see screenshot B, the lower bridge under the gate).  Make sure the bridge connects with the platform somewhere to the left of the gate.  When you're stuck, you will climb facing right, going up and through the steel platform, and then walk right to activate the laser gate. opening the retractable wall blocking the way to the exit.
4) Let the hero lemming finish the rest of the path to the exit with 4 builders (see B and C).  Note in C how the opened retractable wall (the one opened by the laser gate) will interfere with your building, although it doesn't do you any harm solution-wise.
5) Finally, release the crowd by building twice to get over and pass the teleport on the entrance platform (see screenshot A, upper bridge).

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2011, 10:02:31 am »
Lemmings Revolution level 8-4 ("Nice shootin' tex!") improved to 46/50.  This one actually turns out to be a nice, tricky challenge-style puzzle with only one miscellaneous glitch at the end (which merely saves 1 more).  Due to the time limit, unfortunately I can't use this method for 47/50.

Quote from: highlight to read
Refer to the screenshots in the attached zip as needed:

1) before any lemmings come out, set RR of both entrances to 99.
2) As soon as one lemming comes out of each entrance (this happens just immediately after timer reaches 3:56), set RR of lower entrance down to 1.  Then when 2nd lemming come out from lower entrance, set its RR back to 99.
3) After 48 lemmings total has come out, set RR of upper entrance to 1.
4) Now set the front of the upper crowd a bomber at the position given in screenshot A.
5) Now at the lower half, set a blocker at the position given in screenshot B.
6) Have the leader of the lower lemmings (call him "X" for later reference) build left starting at the position as shown in screenshot C.  The 1st build brick is strategically placed to match the step on the floor.  The step, plus the 1st 2 build bricks of the bridge, will form a wall just high enough to block anyone walking under the bridge from getting past.
7) When leader finishes 1st building, continue building left as soon as the game lets you.
8.) Immediately prepare to assign bomber at the back of the upper RR99 crowd, at position as shown in screenshot D.
9) The RR1 upper lemming (call him "Y") will fall down late enough to catch the bridge still being built by X (see screenshot E).  Have Y start building 4 times, as seen in screenshot F, to reach the "timed door" area.
10) When the rest of the upper crowd finally fall down, the front of the crowd (call him "Z") should block at the position given in screenshot F.
11) After Y finishes building and can reach the "timed door", assign him floater (screenshot G, though you probably don't need to assign it so late).  Wait until he triggers the meter enough times to reach "03".  Then have the back of the RR 99 crowd build at position given in screenshot H, resulting in a strategically placed build brick (see screenshot I) to finally allow everyone to get past the bridge and start heading the way towards the exit.
12) One lemming (it's X) will be far ahead of the rest of the crowd (see screenshot J), he will eventually trigger the timed door as well, and be sacrificed to allow the meter to go down to "00" faster than waiting for Y to do so.  (This would be unnecessary if the time limit is higher.)
13) After everyone else has turned around at blocker Z to head towards the exit, free blocker Z using the reset-bomber glitch, using basher as the spare skill.  He should make the exit with well more than 10 seconds to spare.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2012, 07:26:09 pm »
Lemmings Revolution level 8-9 ("Bridges") improved to 53/53.  Tested to work on both patched and unpatched versions.

Quote from: highlight to read
All the acid lemmings have to do is to have one mine left, starting from the right edge of the acid pool (see screenshot A, right, for the mining in progress).  As a great example of "underwater mining" on acid glitch, this will allow the lever at the bottom of the pool be reached and activated.  Due to the way acid works, the acid lemmings will snap back up to surface after reaching the end of the underacid mining tunnel.  Therefore the lever doesn't get re-triggered, nor will the mining tunnel block the acid lemmings from reaching the exit eventually.

Now the normal lemmings entrance.  Set RR to about 27 before any lemmings comes out, then set RR to 1 after 1st normal lemming ("X") emerges, and finally RR to 56 after 2nd normal lemming ("Y") emerges.  Assign X blocker after he walks for a few steps (basically, as soon as you can, but not so soon that Y and other subsequent lemmings end up landing on X's head).  Also assign X bomber immediately after assigning him blocker.  Wait for Y to turn around at X, and then turn again at the left steel wall, then assign Y bomber as well.

X will "ohno" at the right time allowing Y to pass through.  Reset X by assigning him blocker.  Y will ohno in mid-fall thus surviving the fall.  When it lands, make him dig (thus canceling the explosion) down 3 times, then bash (see screenshot A, left).  Y will stop bashing when it reaches the steel before thea acid pool.  The digging will lower the floor enough for the steel to wall off anyone from reaching the acid pool from the left.  Y's bashing also effectively releases the acid lemmings to start heading towards the exit.  Now have Y build left to make safe the fall from the normal-entrance platform, as well as to build over the dig-bash pit's left wall, so that lemmings can head to the exit (see screenshot B).

Now wait until everyone has come out.  The acid lemmings as well as Y will all reach the exit by then.  The RR will compress the normal-lemmings crowd into two distinct positions.  Whenever the two walking "sub-crowds" intersect, assign blocker X bomber.  When X ohnos, assign him basher to reset and free him.  He should end up between the two sub-crowds. They now all walk towards the exit, and because of the crowd compression, everyone will make it through the metered door before it retracts and closes.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2012, 11:59:39 pm »
Nice work!  :thumbsup:

I didn't know about the underwater mining glitch until you pointed it out, which is why I couldn't do better than 52/53 on that level.  The 52/53 solution is basically the intended route, saving everyone but the single acid lemming that goes down the drained acid pool and trips the switch.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2012, 07:09:54 am »
I found another (easier) way of getting 46/50 on Lemmings Revolution level 8-4 (Nice shootin' tex).  This one is completely glitch-free, and uses less skills and has more time left over than the one ccexplore presented (which was still very good, incidentally).  Unfortunately, despite the spare skills, I doubt this method can be improved to save 47/50.

Quote from: Hint
The general idea is to catch the lemmings that trigger the timed door counter on a bridge.  To do this, your main bridge will mainly go from right to left underneath the door, except for the final approach, which obviously must go from left to right.  This uses up five bridges, leaving two to cut off the fall for the upper group. 

Quote from: Full Solution
1: Let the lemmings from the lower entrance walk up to the highest part of the lower platform (underneath the exit).  Shortly after the first lemming takes a step down, make him block.
2: The second lemming hits the blocker and must build as soon as he steps back up.  He will build four bridges to the left, and it is important that none of these bridges are "stretched". 
3: Meanwhile, the rest of the lower crowd heads off to the left.  One lemming must build 2x to catch the upper group when they fall.
4: When the first builder finishes his fourth bridge, make him a blocker.
5: When the crowd gets back to the right, they will walk up the bridge and hit the blocker on top.  Make a lemming build right starting at the third brick from the top.  He should just barely make it far enough so that the lemmings falling off his bridge will trigger the timed door counter.
6: Watch the rest of the lower crowd carefully.  If there is a lemming closely following the one who triggers the door to close, make him bash to delay him, otherwise the closing door may knock him off the level.
7: Use two bombers to release the upper lemmings.

All of the lemmings will be saved except for the two bombers and the two blockers.  Unfortunately, the spare skills are insufficient to save either one of them.

Offline mobius

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2012, 01:04:19 am »
Could anyone tell me how you're supposed to win "Two Laps Final" without using the bomber glitch? I mean, I'm assuming there's a way considering the reset bomber glitch is a glitch. In any videos I've seen of people completing the level they always use the glitch.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2012, 01:29:37 am »
Haven't played that level myself, but this walkthrough did offer an alternative for freeing a blocker without using the glitch, it seems.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2012, 06:37:37 am »
I can confirm that "Two Laps Finale" is possible without the bomber glitch.  If you build a bridge at the start and then block on the fourth brick, the blocker can be released later by mining on the first brick.  The remaining 12 bridges are more than sufficient to clear the path to the exit (which can be done a couple of different ways).

Offline mobius

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2012, 10:12:12 pm »
yeah for some reason I thought you had no floaters on that level, so I thought going to the right was impossible. This level isn't really that hard at all now that I think about it.

another solution is to block and after you've cleared a path to the left, free the blocker using the glitch then have him build up to the ceiling to turn around.
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Offline Minim

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2012, 11:07:02 am »
I've recently been having a go at some Mayhem levels of the original game and for this type of challenge I was stuck on 10 and 29. I need some advice on these levels as to how to pull off the old slider trick on 10. (I have done that trick before, but not in this case) As for 29 I don't know where the lemmings need to be turned to blockers. Some hints would be nice but replays are preferable.
The user formerly known as minimac

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2012, 08:42:41 pm »
I've recently been having a go at some Mayhem levels of the original game and for this type of challenge I was stuck on 10 and 29. I need some advice on these levels as to how to pull off the old slider trick on 10. (I have done that trick before, but not in this case) As for 29 I don't know where the lemmings need to be turned to blockers. Some hints would be nice but replays are preferable.

I walked Fernito through Mayhem 29 a couple of years ago, and he posted a replay when he solved it.  I believe it's on page 7 of the "Oh No More Challenges" thread.

Mayhem 10 may be the hardest max-% challenge in the original game, with lots of pixel-precision moves and a few release rate changes that I can't remember off the top of my head.  ccexplore will probably be able to help you with that one.

Offline geoo

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2012, 09:23:39 pm »
I happen to have the 73/75 replay for Mayhem 10 lying around, it is due to ccexplore iirc. See attachment.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2012, 09:01:04 pm »
I'd still like to see this updated with definitive results from other versions of the game. Since there's already a nearly complete list for the Genesis, let's start by getting that out of the way, after which I'd like to have a go at the Mac version  :thumbsup:

EDIT: Lists deleted as LemSteven has added them to the initial post.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2012, 01:24:28 am »
I've added the results for Genesis Lemmings to the original post.  However, I've got virtually no familiarity at all with the NES or GameBoy versions, and to be consistent with the other results, it would help to have the number of lemmings in each level.  If I get that information, I'll add those versions to the original post, as well.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2012, 08:09:59 pm »
I only have the Mac emulator on my old laptop, plus I don't have a lot of free time recently.  When I have the chance I'll try and get back to you on Mac results.  And, keep in mind that without the replay features of Lemmix, you'll forgive me that I don't exactly feel highly motivated doing challenge work on the Mac version. ;P

For Tricky 23 you may want to refer back to my Lemmix replay for the lose 1 solution on the PC version, if you haven't already.  It's pretty much a glitch-free solution that should work mostly the same on the Mac, the one critical difference being that on the Mac, subtle differences in the miner terrain-removal shapes lead to more mining strokes required before you can stop the leakage of lemmings (thus you'll definitely lose a few more).

As for NES and Gameboy results, I definitely am not going to spend time anytime soon going back to try and look up individual level stats, if I can't find them already available effort-free on the web somewhere.  Actually I thought Finlay compiled such stats for various versions of Lemmings in his spreadsheets, so he may be able to assist in that regard.

Offline mobius

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2012, 08:42:08 pm »
I happen to have the 73/75 replay for Mayhem 10 lying around, it is due to ccexplore iirc. See attachment.

What is happening here? It doesn't look like the climber glitch to me. (the lemming is moving too fast) Plus, I thought that beam would be too thin for a lemming to get stuck in it.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2012, 11:43:11 pm »
Mac Tricky 23 improved to lose 4. I didn't view the Lemmix replay (I still don't have Lemmix...) but here's what I did, I figure it can't do any harm to let the cat out of the bag now:

Quote
Lemmings 2-11 become athletes, lemming 1 turns back and mines to the left as soon as he touches the foot of the stairs. (Because later lemmings have priority over earlier ones, this is the only place you can give him the miner, since you need him to be the only lemming under the cursor.) As it turns out, lemming 12 reaches the wall at almost exactly the same time, so pause immediately after assigning the miner, have lemming 12 bash, the rest is the normal solution and you'll only lose four.

Offline finlay

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2012, 03:12:51 pm »
As for NES and Gameboy results, I definitely am not going to spend time anytime soon going back to try and look up individual level stats, if I can't find them already available effort-free on the web somewhere.  Actually I thought Finlay compiled such stats for various versions of Lemmings in his spreadsheets, so he may be able to assist in that regard.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15543016/lem/Lemmings%20Levels.xls
I don't have Gameboy stats on it, and the NES stats are very incomplete; I think the number of lemmings and the time limit on each level is there, but I only have stats information for the fun levels and their repeats, and I got that from you. :P

Offline Proxima

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2012, 12:56:05 am »
Mac Taxing 27 lose 3 confirmed. It's tight, but if the first bomber is timed perfectly you can just get "round the corner" with the 10 builders given.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2012, 04:21:51 pm »
I've had a look at Mac Tricky 16, as Ephraim's lose 5 is one worse than this level's record on the PC version. Each bomber, as well as blowing a hole in one strand of the mesh, makes a tiny "dint" in the next strand. If the next bomber explodes while standing on the dint, he will get through two strands at once -- but without making a dint in the fourth strand. That means you need two bombers per three strands, and there are seven strands, so it looks like lose 5 is indeed the best that can be done. (Using a bomber at the start to save the miner for the mesh doesn't seem to help.)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2012, 06:05:50 pm »
Mac Taxing 28 improved to lose 11 (69/80). Not sure about lose 10; some very weird stuff is going on with activating the sliding glitch (and hey, it's my first ever time doing it!) The lemming must be facing left when the climber is assigned, or he can slip out through the hole above the build brick (even though he couldn't escape before climber was assigned) so maybe I was taking too long in waiting for the right moment -- and I may also have waited longer than necessary before bashing. Still, this is a substantial improvement on Ephraim's result!  :thumbsup:

EDIT: 70/80 confirmed!!!

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2012, 12:35:22 am »
(LemSteven, will you add the NES and GameBoy results [further up this page] to the first page please?)

Got it.  Also, I sorted all of the original Lemmings ports in alphabetical order.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2012, 01:29:59 am »
EDIT: 70/80 confirmed!!!

Good job! :thumbsup:

some very weird stuff is going on with activating the sliding glitch (and hey, it's my first ever time doing it!) The lemming must be facing left when the climber is assigned, or he can slip out through the hole above the build brick (even though he couldn't escape before climber was assigned)

First of all, this is actually not the sliding glitch, which doesn't involve climbers.  Let's call this one the stuck climber glitch. :P

Climbers are full of quirks in Lemmings, and in particular, when they hit their head and fall, they actually move two steps away from the wall rather than one step away.  This is what causes the lemming to slip out if the climber is assigned facing right.

One level using the real sliding glitch is Mayhem 10.  I should note that due to subtle differences in the basher mask between DOS and most non-DOS versions (namely, it only extends 7 [lo-res] pixels ahead horizontally in DOS, but 8 in many other versions), that affects the timing enough to require some adjustments to the exact RR changes etc. seen in the Lemmix replay, if you want to try it in other versions like the Mac.  I was able to get it working though on for example the SNES (which also disallows changing RR when paused, so even more restricted in those versions), so it should still be possible.  I think I have noted down the exact RR changes etc. for the bash-8 versions, if I can still find my old notes. :XD:

Offline Proxima

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #43 on: February 29, 2012, 08:09:35 pm »
Good job! :thumbsup:

Thank you 8) I may be a slow pupil, but I get there in the end!

Talking of slowness, the reason I've not yet looked at the remaining three levels that are still in doubt is that looking through the old challenge thread has made me realise that the Mac ONML records are in an absolutely dire state, with over half of the non-Tame levels never even looked at. To remedy this, I've compiled (from the old thread and from memory and some guesswork) a list of my own personal bests, and I intend to go over every non-100%-required level to try to bring these records in line with those achieved for the PC version, or where applicable to prove that this cannot be done. I know, this will take a while, and I know that some solutions (e.g. 100% on Wicked 14, one of the ones I crossed off yesterday) are just obviously version-independent... but I still want to do this for my own personal satisfaction, since the last time I've really played ONML was when I was just trying to complete the levels, and I've never gone back and tried to improve records, except for the few individual levels mentioned on the old thread. Also, I know the glitches now, so I don't need ccexplore to hand-hold me through some of the ones I couldn't solve before :)

Anyway, preamble over. We have our first confirmed result variance: Wicked 1 lose 1 is not possible on the Mac because the steel area extends above the visible steel terrain. (That this is the cause can be seen if you climb-bomb the OWW and try to explode another lemming inside it. If he's too low, no terrain will be destroyed, just as if he was standing on steel. Because he is.) This means you can't get past the OWW with only one bomb, except by digging down the middle and bombing (my original solution) -- but that's not lose 1 either because it's too slow, two will turn round. In fact the optimal solution is the climb-bomb plus another bomb I just mentioned; if placed accurately you can get the second bomber high enough to destroy terrain and far right enough to break through. A digger towards the right of the first dip, RR 99, and this is lose 2 (58/60).

I won't post my results for the other levels just yet, there are still too many listed as non-100% merely because I haven't even tried them yet :)

Offline finlay

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2012, 02:50:45 am »
Steel areas work differently on the Mac – they're less forgiving than on DOS, where they're implemented quite lazily. I don't think the level is changed at all in the data file, it must just be that the way steel detection works has changed. The lose-1 Wicked 1 solution, IIRC, involves bombing just before the OWW and then bashing through the wrong way – steel detection only occurs on a single row of pixels or something, so the basher isn't detecting either the OWW or the steel area, because the detection pixels are "lower than" the first and "higher than" the second, even though his tunnel overlaps both.

What was your solution to "Compression Method 1"? As i'm aware, this is another one in which the DOS 100% solution involves bashing away the top few rows of pixels of the steel area in a way that you can't do on the Mac.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2012, 01:23:05 pm »
What was your solution to "Compression Method 1"? As i'm aware, this is another one in which the DOS 100% solution involves bashing away the top few rows of pixels of the steel area in a way that you can't do on the Mac.

Thanks for reminding me -- Taxing 6 and Taxing 16 are the other ccexplore records I still need to confirm for myself. For the former, the Mac record is lose 1 and I think I've got the basic method. Make the first lemming from the leftmost trapdoor immediately dig; make the second lemming from this trapdoor immediately bash (using option-click). Because he's only 3px deep, he'll stop bashing when he's connected the first and second groups. Also, make the digger bash when he's deep enough to contain the crowd. He'll stop after just one stroke. Then, wait until all lemmings are out, and make one from the third group bash right. When he's partway across, make one from the fourth group bash right. The idea is that opening the gap between the third and fourth groups at the right time will make the lemmings of the fourth group all be heading left for a while, giving the basher time to explode just after falling off the edge without any other lemmings dying. I've confirmed that the explosion works, I just haven't got the timing right yet (my best is lose 3 -- and hey, that's still an improvement on Ephraim's score for this level!).

EDIT: Confirmed that the basher isolation is possible, and therefore lose 1 is possible with the method described. Now I just need to time the basher and bomber correctly in the same run....

DONE IT! For the record, the correct timing is to start the rightmost basher when the other basher is just past halfway by the tiniest fraction, and likewise, assign bomber when the rightmost basher is just past halfway.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2012, 09:47:04 pm »
Wild 12 doesn't like me. I understand that the key to the 100% solution is to find a precise spot, just after the rise in the ground right of the steam-blower, where with 2 builders you can avoid hitting the icicle and reach a vertical part of the snow wall on the right, high enough to ascend and bash through to the exit. I've worked out all the rest of the details, so I have the 100% solution apart from finding this precise spot. And I've had enough tries at it that I'm beginning to doubt such a spot exists on the Mac version  :'(

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2012, 10:29:30 pm »
One notable game-mechanics difference I recall on the Mac is that the basher can continue bashing even if the terrain is only 5 (low-res) pixels above ground level, whereas most other versions (DOS, Amiga, SNES, etc.) requires 6.  In other words, whereas in most versions you need to dig down 6 times before bashing can continue on unstopped on flat ground, in Mac you only need to dig down 5 times for the same to happen.

On the other hand, in many of those 6-required versions, there's also the quirk that bashers only does the "stop if nothing to bash ahead" check every other stroke, so that discounting steel or falls, a lemming would always bash an odd number of strokes before stopping, always continuing on for at least one more stroke after an even number of strokes.  The Mac version does not have that quirk, thus making it more prone to stopping.

Finally, the DOS version has a very outrageous difference whereby the one-way wall is completely non-functional (note: this doesn't work in Lemmix due to known issue with its emulation).  That said, the 100% solution I found never took advantage of that.

I'm not sure how these differences may or may not play out on the Mac version.  If I have a chance this week I can give it a try and let you know.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2012, 10:51:46 pm »
The one-way wall on Wild 12 is fake on the Mac too.

I'm also stuck on Wild 15, but then, looking back at posts on the old forum, it seems you were stumped by this level on the Mac too :) The main problem is that you can't activate the digger close enough to the steel for him to continue digging all the way down. You said something about having other solutions that might allow lose-3 on the Mac, but I don't know the details. Also, for some reason, I haven't yet succeeded in not "leaking" one lemming in the first part of the level, even when following LemSteven's description of the solution precisely.

These two are the last remaining levels in Crazy and Wild -- for all others, I've confirmed that the PC version results can be duplicated on the Mac.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2012, 11:55:41 pm »
I'm also stuck on Wild 15, but then, looking back at posts on the old forum, it seems you were stumped by this level on the Mac too :) The main problem is that you can't activate the digger close enough to the steel for him to continue digging all the way down. You said something about having other solutions that might allow lose-3 on the Mac, but I don't know the details. Also, for some reason, I haven't yet succeeded in not "leaking" one lemming in the first part of the level, even when following LemSteven's description of the solution precisely.

I believe (not 100% sure though) I eventually got one working solution for Wild 15 lose-2 on the Mac, but aside from that one, all other solutions found on DOS Lemmings does not work on the Mac due to various tiny but critical differences.  For example, the digging doesn't work as you noted, because only DOS Lemmings allows the digging to continue with so few terrain pixels under the digger.  Solutions that involves building up to the top of the steel and bashing through it fails to work on the Mac, IIRC not because of the steel per se, but because of the basher difference I noted in my previous post, that they are more prone to stop on Mac version.  (In this case due to the half-"hole" right above the steel.)

I think the solution I came up with for the Mac requires the glitch of using a blocker to disable the trap.  I forgot the details, but you need to create a setup where you have two lemmings compressed (via blockers and some RR-jiggering) nearly to the same location, walking towards the trap, then have one of them block when close enough to the trap trigger so that the blocker field cancels the trap trigger, allowing the other one to pass safely.  Eventually the blockers are freed with a basher.  You get through the final obstacle using one basher and 2 bombers.

I don't know if I have a Lemmix replay of this solution, but I'll do my best to either find it or re-create it and post it here for reference.

Offline Frevett

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2012, 11:58:18 pm »
The latest game update on the PS3 version removed highscores (I have no idea why), so now you can't see what the most lemmings anyone's saved on each level is (or fastest times, or even how many you've saved). Here's a list of what's possible in each level:

Trial:
1) 5/5
2) 5/5
3) 5/10
4) 5/5
5) 2/3

Fun:
1) 100/100
2) 4/4
3) 8/10
4) 2/2
5) 21/20
6) 10/10
7) 2/2
8) 3/3
9) 19/20
10) 3/3

Tricky:
1) 100/100
2) 5/5
3) 10/10
4) 99/100
5) 2/2
6) 4/4
7) 40/40
8) 2/2
9) 100/100
10) 100/100

Taxing:
1) 5/5
2) 10/10
3) 19/20
4) 4/4
5) 3/3
6) 8/10
7) 10/10
8) 4/4
9) 9/10
10) 10/10

Mayhem:
1) 100/100
2) 100/99
3) 5/4
4) 8/10
5) 100/100
6) 100/100
7) 10/10
8) 100/100
9) 100/100
10) 50/50

Offline mobius

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2012, 09:19:35 pm »
Lemmings Revolution: 11/7 "Don't let them Out" just seems like 100% should be possible.

You have 49/50. If the lemming you loose is the one that has to mine/dig a hole into the water to kill the weasels, this possibly can be saved; using the miner trick where you can build while mining but leave a small hole.
normally, he will turn around and drown but (I need to try this yet) it could be possible if you build near the door he will turn around and keep building and possibly leave a gap for the weasels to go in.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2012, 11:51:41 pm »
I've now separately confirmed all the steps of the 100% solution to Wild 12 on Mac. I used ccexplore's route, bashing underneath the level.

Offline GuyPerfect

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2012, 05:55:29 am »
I was able to complete a level with 100% and no glitches!

Lemmings Revolution 12-5
No clues ...hee hee hee hee!

Skills used:
  • 1 Climber
  • 20 Builder
  • 2 Basher
  • 3 Miner
  • 3 Digger

Here's how I did it, in picture form! Some of these steps require perfect precision, so I've put some notes next to those.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3 - Dig down exactly 16 notches before building to stop the digging.
Part 4 - Dig through the fourth plank from the left on the lower level. Timing is important for the Weasels.
Part 5 - Start building on the third step from the top. Do not allow the bridge to extend when you use the second Builder.
Part 6
Part 7 - Pause for precision here. There's only one spot this can work and if you miss it, you get to start over.
Part 8 - Unlike before, this time the bridge MUST extend when you use the second Builder.
Part 9 - Don't start building too far to the left or it will block Climber access later. I used the fifth step from the top.
Part 10 - The first swing from the Miner needs to cut away only half the wall.
Part 11
Part 12 - There's a slight step down before the hole. Start building on that.
Part 13
Part 14
Part 15

And as that last picture shows, there's still 1:16 left on the clock after it's all said and done!

Offline mobius

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2012, 07:32:03 pm »
Using GuyPerfect's idea, I have a similar method that saves 2 builders but uses more miners. I also used 2 worker lemmings to save time.
(in either case you can now update the list in that this level can be solved 100% without a glitch! (the previous method being freeing a falling/landing bomber glitch  :XD:))
-this method could be possibly be improved to save time and skills-

Skills used:

    2 Climber
    18 Builder (?)
    2 Basher
    8 Miner
    2 Digger(?)

1- first use 2 builders to build up from the entrance area.
2- Here's where there are two ways to separate 1 or 2 (I used 2 to save time) worker lemmings.

-start bashing left and have another lemming mine the steps at the very top so a lemming could climb up later.

-OR let all the lemming come through the bashing tunnel and make a lemming a block at the end letting 2 through. (You can free the blocker later by digging and mining or bashing or building)

3-when 1 of your worker lemmings comes to the end of the steel hallway mine him at the end (just missing the steel)

4- he comes to the area where the weasels are, turns, and walks all the way around, down to the lower area. (see picture) Dig at the spot near the vertical column underneath so he and/or your other worker can climb back up.

5-if you have another worker, make him mine in the spot shown in the picture. (This is to delay the weasels later.) (If you're only using 1 worker you'll have to do this later). build at some point to stop him so he doesn't break through. Now we'll let him walk back and forth safely in the area for a while while the other works.

6- (Lem1 below) mine through the other thin column (you will probably need the 1 basher later)

7-build over the water (this takes 2)

8-build up to the shorter tall platform (this takes 2)

9-build up to the taller tall platform (this takes 2), then build twice again up to the ceiling where the balloon is to turn around.

10-let this lemming walk back the way he came and make him a climber so he climbs up the hole you made and back up to the top. When he gets to the right most wall (underneath where all the other lemmings are, mine into the ground so he can't climb up to a dangerous height

11-While he is walking back, at any time when the first is walking back to the right and away from the weasel's area; have your other worker mine for exactly 1 and only 1 stroke into the wall holding the weasels in. Then immediately build to stop mining and pass by the weasels safely. You'll probably need two builders to pass the weasels.

12- the weasels will walk away and down into the tunnel you mined earlier. While they are doing that, have your worker mine down left into the steps your other worker build underneath. when he gets down build one near the ceiling to turn him around and he will follow the path the other just took. while walking to the right make him a climber to escape.

13-The weasels will come back to the area near the balloon and fall down the mine hole then into the area with the laser gate and trip it.

14-have your two worker lems build over the holes you've made (there should be two, then free the rest of the lemmings by either building over the gap you made at the beginning or freeing a blocker.


notes:

-usually for some reason, (this should be solved easily by timing in the beginning) the worker lemming at the top is always at the exact position relative to the weasels so that if you go through the wall he will come in contact with one of them immediately. So I had to delay him before beginning.

-having one worker saves skills but uses more time.
whew!
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Offline GuyPerfect

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2012, 09:53:05 pm »
Was also able to get a glitchless 100% on 9-5: Hit 'n' Run

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #56 on: May 05, 2012, 01:04:51 am »
I just improved Lemmings Revolution Level 12-9 (Turn on! Tune in! Switch on!) to 99/100!  8)

Quote from: Spoiler
1. Set the RR to 1 for both entrances.
2. Make the first right-facing lemming a miner when he gets off the steel.
3. Make the first left-facing lemming a miner through the diggable floor at the left.  He has to mine as soon as he can without hitting steel.
4. When the first miner finishes, assign climbers to him and the lemming immediately behind him.  You can now safely set the left entrance RR to 99.
5. When the second miner finishes and turns around, make him bash.  He should be just below the steel on the right.
6. All of the lemmings from the left entrance are heading to an emptied water tank with an anti-gravity pad.  The last lemming going this way has to build over the pad so that he's not inverted.  Also make him a climber+floater.
7. When your basher from step 5 is finished, let him drop down to the steel and make him block (don't let him wander too far -- you need to keep the crowd compressed).  At this point you can set the right entrance RR to 99.
8. The two climbers you assigned earlier should climb a wall that the others will turn around on.  When the first reaches the ceiling with the switch to the right, make him a blocker.
9. The second climber turns off the blocker, drops one level, and builds from the small step.  When he is done, he will eventually head back toward the crowd, but keep an eye on him.
10. The bridge you just built will catch the third climber when he falls.  This lemming will go into the area with the three switches.  He must hit all three switches, digging when necessary.  He will eventually be trapped by the third switch.  Ignore him for now.
11. Watch the second climber, who is heading back toward the crowd.  When he reaches the anti-gravity pad and flips right-side up, immediately bomb the first climber/blocker.  Make him a builder before he goes off so that he doesn't die.
12. Make the third climber bash to free him from his prison.
13. When the builder runs out of bricks and "drops" (rises?) off his bridge, bomb the blocker holding back the crowd.  If all of the timing is right, the bomber should go off right as the second climber returns, and the first climber will flip all of the switches at the right time.
14. Use one final builder to get to the exit.


Offline GuyPerfect

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #57 on: May 05, 2012, 01:20:52 am »
I did ample experimentation on that level just a couple nights ago. What I found was that A) both diggers were required to open up the path to the exit and B) no other combination of digging and/or bombing could group the Lemmings together tightly enough to allow them all to cross the on/off platforms in time without losing any. If you could delay the inverted Lemming that'd be fine, but there aren't enough skills for that.

It is my belief that you absolutely, undoubtedly, without exception *must* blast a Blocker on steel in order to keep all of the Lemmings in a wad. I don't believe 100% is possible.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2012, 05:05:54 pm »
Here are my results from Covox Lemmings and the Official Lemmings Companion:

Covox Lemmings

Tricky 2: 20/21

The Official Lemmings Companion

Fun 2: 79/80
Tricky 2: 73/80
Taxing 4: 79/80
Mayhem 3: 77/80

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2012, 04:51:29 am »
Ack! I found a typo in my original post: Lemmings 3D level 31 (A Head Above the Rest) should have been 31/50 instead of 41/50, since the regular route uses 19 turners.

However, that score is now improved to 36/50 because I found a backroute.  I can provide details if anyone is interested.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #60 on: September 10, 2012, 11:02:07 pm »
Tseug missed one. On Genesis Present 2, you can save 45/50.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2012, 11:14:36 pm »
Now that I've got Lemmings Revolution working on my new computer (thanks once again to GuyPerfect), I was able to find a new record:

Level 11-8 (Speedy Gonzalez): 100% (Previous record was 52/53).

The lemming that was lost in the 52/53 solution was the blocker that restrained the crowd at the top left while a lemming from below built a catch bridge to break their fall and ultimately hit the switch to drain the water.  This lemming can be saved as follows:

1.  Make him block as far to the left as possible.
2.  The lemming that builds the catch bridge only builds just once from a pixel-precise spot, such that the lemmings from above will fall on his top brick.
3.  When the blocker is bombed and the countdown reaches zero, he will fall off the left edge of the platform and land on the bridge you built earlier.  He lands just before he goes off, giving you an instant during which you can reset him with a builder, which will ultimately get the top group to trip the switch.

The bomber resetting glitch has been used in numerous other solutions, so there is nothing new with that.  The falling off the left side of the platform glitch is one that I've known about for a while (I once alluded to it here), but I'm pretty sure this is the first case of it actually being needed for a max-% solution.

The rest of the solution is largely the same as the intended 52/53 solution.  The only other tricky part is getting the timing right so that nobody falls in the water before it is drained.

Offline lyygak

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2013, 09:51:37 am »
Oh no! More Lemmings
Wicked 7: 76/80

How on earth can you turn the right hatch lemmings to left without blocker?
So isn't it possible to save only 75/80? Or is there some megatrick involved?
Could someone explain the solution to me, I tried hard for half an hour and didn't manage to come up with a way...

Offline mobius

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2013, 10:30:05 pm »
Oh no! More Lemmings
Wicked 7: 76/80

How on earth can you turn the right hatch lemmings to left without blocker?
So isn't it possible to save only 75/80? Or is there some megatrick involved?
Could someone explain the solution to me, I tried hard for half an hour and didn't manage to come up with a way...

I have a possible theory... block the lemming in on the top and somehow use the blocker to create a hole. I really have no idea this would be nice to have an explanation. I assure you it is most-likely possible. Some of the players here have god-like powers...  ;P
"All things are empty... Whoever can see this no longer needs anything to attain."
-The Heart Sutra

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
-the Dude


Offline Akseli

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2013, 11:10:26 pm »
Oh no! More Lemmings
Wicked 7: 76/80

How on earth can you turn the right hatch lemmings to left without blocker?
So isn't it possible to save only 75/80? Or is there some megatrick involved?
Could someone explain the solution to me, I tried hard for half an hour and didn't manage to come up with a way...

ccexplore revealed this one here, nothing too easy or obvious. :P

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2013, 10:52:33 am »
Yeah, it uses a glitch that basically allows you to use the same lemming to both block as well as explode the terrain, even though normally you would lose the blocking if a lemming explodes.

Offline lyygak

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2013, 11:57:26 am »
Anyone have a more detailed explanation of exactly how to do it?
I tried to blow a walker as close to a blocker as possible so the blocker shudders in the air and blows the next floor down.
Still there seems to be no "area" in the air that would turn the lemmings around :(
(A video of the solution is maybe too much to ask :P)

Offline Luis

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2013, 12:15:34 pm »
In the PSP Lemmings, a bomber can turn a Lemmning around, when he's about to explode, but this is a normal thing and not a glitch.
Mr. Lemmings PSP user.

Offline lyygak

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2013, 08:13:44 pm »
In the PSP Lemmings, a bomber can turn a Lemmning around, when he's about to explode, but this is a normal thing and not a glitch.

Sure but that is not the case here. I know you can blow the floor from under a lemming after you turn him around.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #69 on: February 17, 2013, 03:18:00 pm »
Anyone have a more detailed explanation of exactly how to do it?
I tried to blow a walker as close to a blocker as possible so the blocker shudders in the air and blows the next floor down.
Still there seems to be no "area" in the air that would turn the lemmings around :(
(A video of the solution is maybe too much to ask :P)

I have a Lemmix replay somewhere, as well as screenshots from way back when I found the solution before Lemmix ever existed.

But I'll have to turn on my old computer to find them, and you're so close anyway so I'll just try to explain with words:

Set it up so that the lemmings fall down to the blocker's arms, you'll notice that they get turned even as they are still falling, before they actually land.  Now apply the trick more or less like you did above.  The end result: lemmings fall down three levels, getting turned in mid-fall where the blocker used to be.

Offline lyygak

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #70 on: February 17, 2013, 10:48:48 pm »
Okay now I finally made it happen! It's extremely tricky!

Here's the solution (is this the same as yours ccexplore?):

Set Release Rate to 21 at start.
Set bomber to the first right-hatch lemming right as it comes out.
Set blocker to that lemming right on the edge of the floor.
Set bomber to the first left-hatch lemming about 1 tile before the right hatch.
About one second after that, set bomber to the second right-hatch lemming right as it comes out.
(The right-hatch lemming should be walking a bit ahead of the left-hatch lemming).
Set blocker to the right-hatch lemming after it falls so that its left hand is directly under the hole.
Now the left-hatch lemming should be blowing as close to the other one as possible so it falls before it explodes.
There is now an invisible "blocking-area" in the air that turns the rest of the lemmings to left as they fall.

Again, it's very difficult, took me over 20 minutes figuring out and 20 minutes trying to get it right.

Offline lyygak

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #71 on: February 17, 2013, 11:32:45 pm »
Video of the solution attached. DOSBox recording (you need its video codec to view).

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #72 on: March 18, 2013, 05:17:14 am »
New Lemmings 3D record!  8)

Level 27 (Follow the Yellow Brick Road): 34/40 (the old record was 33/40).  The blocker at the beginning to save the lemmings that turn around before the bridge is completed is not necessary.  The first lemming climbs and digs while the second builds.  The third and fourth must also climb, and then a whole bunch of delay tactics are needed to keep them from climbing out of the tunnel.  What's worse is many of these moves must be made inside the tunnel, which means they essentially have to be done in VL mode.

I also fixed Level 33 (Shadow Maze) which erroneously said 36/40, when it should be 34/40.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #73 on: May 20, 2014, 03:38:25 am »
I wasn't expecting to be updating this thread, but a recent playthrough of L3D has yielded a couple more records:

Level 52 (Team Work): 80/80 (previously 79/80), involving a ridiculous backroute (see spoiler).

Quote from: Spoilers
The first lemming builds 2x immediately after turning off of the OWW.  Another bashes through his bridge so that nobody follows.  The builder hits his head and turns around, at which point he immediately builds in the opposite direction.  He should reach the top of the OWW and slide down the rope slide.  Bash through the OWW to free the crowd and build 2x over the second OWW to the exit.

Also, last week I updated the record for Level 18 (Corkscrew Digger) to 69 70/80 (previously 68/80).  This one is much more complex and precise, so I'm not going to waste time writing up the solution unless it is requested.

Edit: Got another one, Level 70 (The Hanger): 76/80 (previously 75/80).  Again, solution available upon request.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 05:43:58 am by LemSteven »

Offline DoubleU

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #74 on: September 10, 2014, 05:42:37 pm »
Call me a stick-in-the-mud or whatever, but I wouldn't count anything that required a glitch to solve, unless that "glitch" was absolutely necessary to merely pass the level.  (I imagine that discounts a number of solutions, but I'm fine with that, unless someone can explain why I shouldn't be.  I'm open to suggestions.)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #75 on: September 10, 2014, 06:31:38 pm »
Quote
Call me a stick-in-the-mud or whatever, but I wouldn't count anything that required a glitch to solve, unless that "glitch" was absolutely necessary to merely pass the level.  (I imagine that discounts a number of solutions, but I'm fine with that, unless someone can explain why I shouldn't be.  I'm open to suggestions.)

I have sympathy with that viewpoint, but this and the other challenge topics are records of what is possible to achieve, regardless of the developers' intentions, and it's just a brute fact that DOS Lemmings and various other versions have glitches that make certain records achievable (just as it's a fact that on that one Holiday level, all the steel doesn't work and you can just bash through it). In some of the challenge topics, we've kept separate lists of the best glitch-free records or at least noted which solutions depend on a glitch. That hasn't been done for this topic, though I have no objection to adding the information if anyone has time to go over the levels and confirm all the solutions  :P

One thing I have done, in a separate topic, is listed the maximum saved records for the original levels when played in Lix, the closest thing we have to a glitch-free environment. However, due to other gameplay differences, the maximum saved in Lix is not always the same as the maximum glitch-free in DOS Lemmings.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #76 on: September 10, 2014, 08:11:10 pm »
There are a few challenge threads (mostly the ones started by namida) where we try to report no-glitch results alongside glitch results.

For maximum % saved though, you may be surprised at how few solutions require glitches (actually shouldn't really be that much of a surprise, given that in many ways this has always been one of the easier challenges IMO), especially with the original Lemmings levels.  Cascade 100% is glitch free.  Mary Poppins' Land 100% is glitch free.  The lose-1 solution for Tricky 23 ("From the Boundary Line") is nearly glitch-free, minus one move [edit: actually I'd argue even that move might not count as a glitch, but regardless...] which even when discarded, still leaves you at lose 2.  100% solution for ONML Wicked 9 ("How on Earth?") is glitch-free.  And so forth.

Here are a number of things to consider:
- In general, if you look across all different video games for challenge-style plays (eg. speedruns), you will find that most of them do accept use of glitches.  At the very least, there will typically exist a variant where glitches are allowed.
- Glitch solutions can often be more spectacular, especially if the use of no-glitch leaves you with a more conventional solution that doesn't really do much better than the normal ways the level gets solved.  This feeds into previous point as well--glitch solutions can be more interesting to watch so it's hard to discount them.
- Using a glitch doesn't mean an automatic easy shortcut, if anything, solutions using glitches are often harder to execute partly because glitches can be difficult to set up and exploit effectively.  This goes in general for video games as well, and also adds to the "it can be spectacular to watch" point above as well.
- It can be harder than you think to decide on what is or isn't a glitch.  In some cases it is pretty clear cut, but in other cases it is a lot more subtle.  If you read through some of the glitch threads in the forum you will see what I mean.  And oftentimes it is enough to merely employ behaviors or combination of normal behaviors in unusual ways, rather than outright glitch behaviors.
- As Proxima pointed out when he talked about playing the levels in Lix, oftentimes a solution will hinge on things that have nothing to do with glitches anyway.  This is especially true with challenge solutions which often depends on timing or precision down to the frame/pixel level.

Anyway, I guess when time permits I can at least list out which levels' max-% solutions in DOS Lemmings and ONML requires glitches and what the no-glitch results would be.

Offline namida

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #77 on: January 07, 2015, 12:31:26 pm »
Quote
The Official Lemmings Companion
(100% unless noted)

Fun 2: 79/80
Tricky 2: 73/80
Taxing 4: 79/80
Mayhem 3: 77/80

Here's a replay for 78/80 on Mayhem 3. :)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 12:44:18 pm by namida »

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #78 on: April 18, 2016, 05:10:35 pm »
Just when you thought this thread was dead, I just achieved a new record in Lemmings 2:

Polar 8: 60/60 -- Be warned that this one requires glitches, and in terms of difficulty, it is one of the toughest 100% solutions in the game.

Hints (click to show/hide)

Solution (click to show/hide)

This leaves Classic 5 as the only non-100%-able level in Lemmings 2.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #79 on: May 01, 2016, 03:49:19 am »
This leaves Classic 5 as the only non-100%-able level in Lemmings 2.

And now, Classic 5 can be crossed off the list.  This one is basically the regular solution, but without the blocker/bomber for crowd control.  The trick is getting the lemmings as bunched up as possible, so that as few lemmings as possible are in the final digger's hole when he breaks through and all of them end up walking right towards the exit.  This just barely works -- the last lemming from the crowd steps out of the digger's hole just before it gets too deep, and the crowd returned to the digger just as he was finishing.

I can't really elaborate on the solution without going into several paragraphs of intrinsic detail, but I will say that it took several hours of trial and error to figure out how to optimally bunch up the crowd.  I did end up with one straggler that paced back and forth several times in the digger's hole, but fortunately I was able to get him facing right when the digger finished.

Anyway, this now means that it is possible to save all 60 lemmings in all 12 tribes in Lemmings 2. 8-)

Offline namida

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #80 on: May 01, 2016, 03:55:43 am »
So, L2 then is the first full-sized Lemmings game (at least as far as official ones go) where it's possible to save every lemming in the game...

Offline Leo

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #81 on: May 01, 2016, 04:44:32 am »
@LemSteven And that's it? You are just declared 100% solution on the level without recorded video, no pictures to show us what to do (and where, and when to do). And you even don't want to bother us with the detailed explanation? Hey man, that's not enough! I want as much details as possible. If you can't record all this on video, I expect some very detailed explanation and schematic pictures.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #82 on: May 01, 2016, 06:08:38 am »
To be quite fair, if you spend hours restarting the level over and over tweaking over little things here and there, you're likely too tired by the time you actually reach success to want to spend more time creating evidence to share.

I think LemSteven plays the game in an actual DOS computer rather than something like DOSBox, so even getting a screenshot would not really be possible (unless maybe you snap a photo w/ your phone).  It is precisely one of the reason why I worked with Eric to get Lemmix to emulate DOS Lemmings as closely as possible, so full replays can be easily captured for doing challenges.  Unfortunately Lemmings 2 is just a lot more complex to disassemble and re-implement for something like Lemmix.  In the past I would use DOSBox's screen capture and video capture features to provide some evidence, but even doing so often require replaying the level over a few times, which is not something you want to do after spending already enough time and effort to find and execute the solution successfully the first time around.

Describing verbally is almost never effective except for the broad general outline, which LemSteven did provide.  Maybe if I ever have free time I could try to go from those descriptions to a working attempt in DOSBox that can be screen- or video-captured.  Or you know, you can try the same yourself. :P

For levels like Classic 5 where the key is to tweak the timing of some of the lemmings "in the crowd" so they don't end up going the wrong way, one approach that works in Lemmix is to find out from the text version of replay exactly which lemmings went the wrong way, then restart again but make those lemmings do other stuff beforehand to delay them so their timing works out instead.  You can't quite as easily do that (figuring out from a replay which lemming did what) in the actual game, but some variation of that approach would hopefully let you trial-and-error your way to eventually get a working solution.

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #83 on: May 01, 2016, 07:15:40 am »
I know I can try myself. I did, I failed. I don't see how to follow this explanation: "trick is getting the lemmings as bunched up as possible"? How to bunch them? How to "tweak the timing of some of the lemmings"? There is nothing left except the 3 floaters. That's not enough to tweak the bunch of 59 lemmings. And I didn't ask for the proof, I didn't say I doubt him. I just want some detailed explanation and schematics.
And one thing not related to this, why DOS Lemmings should be considered 'the original one'? I always thought the Amiga version is ' the real one'.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #84 on: May 01, 2016, 11:34:50 am »
Fair enough about wanting more details.  If LemSteven doesn't respond, I could take a look again at the level myself and see if I can provide a better answer.

And one thing not related to this, why DOS Lemmings should be considered 'the original one'? I always thought the Amiga version is ' the real one'.

Since when did anyone here say anything about DOS Lemmings being the "original one"? ??? For me, I usually take the Amiga, Atari ST and DOS versions of Lemmings to all be "original" as they were co-developed in parallel at the same time by DMA.  Basically when I do use the term "original" (which seems rare actually), I mean they are not done as ports of an earlier version. It is true that I think the Amiga version had the earliest release date, as well as having the most features (eg. opening sequence movie, 2-player mode, two things not available in DOS version for example).  Those are quite reasonable criteria for considering the Amiga version as "original".  I can't speak to how other people may be using the term "original".

I'm less familiar with the development details for other games in the series, but I'm reasonably sure at no point did we have a situation where DMA actually completed the Amiga version and only then ported it over to DOS; the developments were done in parallel with relatively close release dates.  But feel free to correct me on those since as I said, less familiar with the details past Lemmings 1 (not that I'm all that familiar with the details on Lemmings 1 in the first place!).

As far as challenges and records go, they need to be (and are in fact done so on this thread) tracked on a per-version basis, since especially when challenge solutions, even the tiniest difference in game mechanics can have an impact, to say nothing of actual changes to the levels themselves.

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #85 on: May 01, 2016, 04:30:21 pm »
All right, I wasn't sure how much interest this would generate.  Since there seems to be some demand, I'll provide a more detailed solution.  Screenshots are attached.

Solution (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 05:51:18 pm by LemSteven »

Offline Leo

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #86 on: May 02, 2016, 04:27:44 am »
@LemSteven Thank you. It's very nice to see that explanation. But, I think it's too hard for me, so I won't dare to even try this solution. There is also one other (but only possible on the Mega drive) solution for that level:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rMxSC2nalc
Your solution is much 'cleaner', but looks like very hard to achieve.

@ccexplore I asked you because you said here "emulate DOS Lemmings as closely as possible". I holding back this question for a long time. Why DOS? Is it the first? Is it the best?
I can forgive a lot of things done (or not done in the DOS version). Very annoying is lack of water/lava on the some levels (e.g. Fun 4, 6, 8, 9, 10, etc).
But, number of max 80 lemmings per level in DOS, instead of the 100 in Atari/Amiga version is something that bothers me a lot.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #87 on: May 02, 2016, 09:09:46 am »
@ccexplore I asked you because you said here "emulate DOS Lemmings as closely as possible". I holding back this question for a long time. Why DOS? Is it the first? Is it the best?

None of the above really.  I'm much more familiar with the x86 instruction set than Amiga's Motorola 68000 CPU.  Moreover, at the time (something like 10-15 years ago) it was much easier to run DOS Lemmings on Windows PCs (Windows hasn't gotten to the point where you need to use DOSBox), and I have tools like debuggers for DOS that I can use to help with disassembling.  Also, efforts like Customized Lemmings document the file formats but for DOS Lemmings and not some other version's.

In contrast, I'm not sure at the time whether I would be able to even find a decent Amiga emulator had I wanted to.

So basically from a technical perspective, the DOS version was the most feasible for me to work out all the information necessary for near-100% emulation.  It also doesn't hurt that it was IBM-compatible PCs running DOS and later Windows that "took over the world" rather than Amiga, so the effort would clearly be applicable to a version that is at once "original" (in the "not a port" sense) and seems most accessible to most people.  It also wasn't lost on me that the few lists on the Internet at the time on "most saved" or similar (ie. lists well predating the existence of these forums for example) were all referring to the DOS version or at least have the best solution reported on that version.

In terms of playing the game, I absolutely find the Amiga version superior in many ways, starting with the MOD music that I tend to prefer over the Adlib version in DOS.  Some levels in Amiga also are more properly challenging and "in the spirit of the level", like "The Fast Food Kitchen" (DOS version gives you an extra minute and only requires 75%), and "Just a Minute" (DOS version's timer progresses slower making things easier).  I'm not so bothered by the number of lemmings (the fact is, in almost all levels, having 20 more lemmings just means you have to wait longer for them to all exit), but it was definitely eye-opening to see how much water and lava etc. they removed from the DOS version presumably for performance reasons.

The one thing I do like about the DOS version is the ability to change RR while paused.  It might perhaps not be something DMA intended, but it sure makes utilizing precise RR changes in challenge solutions a lot more versatile.

Offline Simon

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #88 on: May 02, 2016, 12:14:42 pm »
Lovely read. We did challenges on Dos L1 and L2 because of Lemmix & Dosbox familiarity.

The Lemmings devs had a half-baked networking mode for 2-player L1 on Amiga. The walker demo in 1989 was for Dos. They had a specialist for either system, and did the development largely in parallel.

I've written about the attitude of true. I find this extremely common. Even among newcomers, I deem the attitued more common than Proxima suggests.

-- Simon

Offline geoo

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #89 on: May 03, 2016, 05:54:14 am »
Wow. This is incredible. In particular after such a long time of no progress. I certainly didn't expect there to be any more progress on L2's saving records. And not just one level, but two! It's amazing to think L2 has been thought to be done with no more improvements possible quite a few times already, and then after a lull unlikely improvements like this happened.

But now it's really done. No more potential for improvements. Every single lemming has been saved. :D

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #90 on: July 13, 2019, 11:48:58 pm »
3D Lemmings: Fun 14 has been improved to 74 via a hidden route. Please see attached screenshot.
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #91 on: July 14, 2019, 04:07:18 am »
Well, that was certainly unexpected!  "Hidden" is definitely the right word for that route!  I guess having a level editor does help expose some hidden level features.  I certainly wouldn't have thought to look over there for hidden non-ice blocks.

On that note, here's a slightly less unexpected improvement to Level 51 (Chaos Maze): 77/80.  No hidden features here - just an embarrassing oversight of a blatantly obvious backroute.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 04:20:18 am by LemSteven »

Offline namida

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #92 on: July 14, 2019, 04:23:50 am »
Well, that was certainly unexpected!  "Hidden" is definitely the right word for that route!  I guess having a level editor does help expose some hidden level features.  I certainly wouldn't have thought to look over there for hidden non-ice blocks.

On that note, here's a slightly less unexpected improvement to Level 51 (Chaos Maze): 77/80.  No hidden features here - just an embarrassing oversight of a blatantly obvious backroute.

Saving 76 with that route is trivial, but saving 77 seems to require a bit of tricky timing, so here's a replay that shows how to do it.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #93 on: July 14, 2019, 04:42:56 am »
Yep, that's not the first time I've used that trick to squeeze out an extra lemming.  The records for "Land Ahoy" and "It's the Name of the Game" also involve the same general idea to separate the worker from the crowd.

Speaking of L3D records, if anyone wants hints/solutions for any of them, I can provide them upon request.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #94 on: July 15, 2019, 05:49:39 am »
Another L3D improvement:

Level 35 (Chocolate Drop): 76/80 -- Basically this is the same backroute as the 75/80 solution, but with some precise maneuvers and a release rate change to get the lemmings spaced optimally.  Be warned that the timing on this is incredibly tight, and a couple of assignments need to be done at precise moments.

Solution (click to show/hide)

Offline Pooty

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #95 on: July 15, 2019, 03:19:58 pm »
3D Lemmings: Fun 10 has been improved to 20/20 (100%). I have uploaded a video of the solution here, and an explanation below.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 03:36:06 pm by Pooty »
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline Pooty

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #96 on: July 21, 2019, 01:26:23 am »
3D Lemmings: Taxing 06 (Level 46: Ricochet) has been improved to 37/40. Here's a video of the solution.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 01:37:16 am by Pooty »
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline Pooty

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #97 on: July 23, 2019, 02:23:18 am »
3D Lemmings: Taxing 18 (Level 58: Snake) has been improved to 56/80.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #98 on: July 24, 2019, 04:41:40 am »
^ I can't believe I've had L3D for over 20 years and never came up with that idea.  I could have sworn that drop was a splat fall without the bomber, but it looks like it's just barely survivable.

Good catch! :thumbsup:

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #99 on: July 24, 2019, 09:16:33 am »
Did anyone try to save the maximum rodents in Atari Lynx Lemmings? I am planning to do it, if there is not a WIP challenge in this port by another user :thumbsup:

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #100 on: July 25, 2019, 04:14:29 am »
Pooty's improvement to L3D Level 58 (Snake) inspired me to take another look at that level.  A bit of lateral thinking ended up yielding another solution that saves 60/80.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #101 on: August 09, 2019, 01:07:48 am »
L3D Level 72 (Raiders of the Lost Lemming) has been improved to 35/40 (previously 33/40).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline Pooty

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #102 on: August 10, 2019, 07:43:44 pm »
3D Lemmings: Taxing 18 (Level 58: Snake) has been improved to 67/80.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #103 on: August 10, 2019, 10:06:09 pm »
Congratulations, Pooty, you may have just achieved the most annoying max-% solution to execute in the history of Lemmings!  ;P  I used to think the bomber timing for max-% in Havoc 20 of ONML was rough, but this takes it to a whole new level.  I just got it to work myself, and I guarantee I never would have gotten it without the built-in auto-replay feature.

Good job finding (and executing) that one! :thumbsup:

Offline namida

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #104 on: August 10, 2019, 10:40:08 pm »
Improved to save 68 save 69. For the purpose of the skills you can't live without, this also improves to 4 turners.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 11:15:34 pm by namida »

Offline namida

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #105 on: August 11, 2019, 02:05:23 am »

EDIT: And now 36, although Pooty beat me to it by a few minutes (as mentioned on Discord).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 03:39:46 am by namida »

Offline Pooty

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #106 on: August 11, 2019, 03:40:04 am »
3D Lemmings: Tricky 7 (Level 27: Follow the Yellow Brick Road) improved to 36/40. The solution is complex, so a replay is attached.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline WillLem

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #107 on: October 17, 2019, 04:57:54 pm »
Just thought I'd share a few of my 100% replays! Lemme know what you think!

Lemmings Tricky 25 - Cascade 100%
Lemmings Mayhem 7 - Poles Apart 100%
Oh No! More Lemmings Crazy 19 - DON'T PANIC 100%
Oh No! More Lemmings Wicked 17 - Down the tube 100%
Oh No! More Lemmings Havoc 7 - Creature Discomforts 100%

- WillLem 8-)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 05:09:18 pm by WillLem »

Offline namida

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #108 on: October 17, 2019, 06:02:56 pm »
Just thought I'd share a few of my 100% replays! Lemme know what you think!

Lemmings Tricky 25 - Cascade 100%
Lemmings Mayhem 7 - Poles Apart 100%
Oh No! More Lemmings Crazy 19 - DON'T PANIC 100%
Oh No! More Lemmings Wicked 17 - Down the tube 100%
Oh No! More Lemmings Havoc 7 - Creature Discomforts 100%

- WillLem 8-)


We don't use clone engines for these challenge topics, only the official games. (The one exception is Lemmix, which we allow due to the fact that it - by design - has identical gameplay physics to DOS version, even down to the really fine details and glitches. And to be clear - that's regular vanilla Lemmix only; not NeoLemmix.) EDIT: To be clear, use of framestep / etc features in Lemmix is considered acceptable, because they don't allow you to do anything you couldn't theoretically do in the legitimate DOS game, they just make it a whole lot easier to do it. However, if some Lemmix-exclusive glitch were to show up, use of it would not be considered acceptable.

A challenge topic relating specifically to clone engines (or rather, to be fair, I'd think it would have to be limited to one specific clone engine - and in turn, I suspect that unless that engine is NeoLemmix, there wouldn't be much interest) could absolutely be started if you like, but yeah, it would need to be kept separate for the sake of fairness.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 07:51:44 pm by namida »

Offline Minim

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #109 on: October 17, 2019, 06:12:03 pm »
Thanks for clearing that up, namida. It's nice to see someone taking an interest in this board though, but still, it really does need an update which will hopefully help any more new users fully understand what this board is all about. I'll send a PM.
The user formerly known as minimac

Offline WillLem

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #110 on: October 17, 2019, 07:49:14 pm »

We don't use clone engines for these challenge topics, only the official games. (The one exception is Lemmix, which we allow due to the fact that it - by design - has identical gameplay physics to DOS version, even down to the really fine details and glitches. And to be clear - that's regular vanilla Lemmix only; not NeoLemmix.)

A challenge topic relating specifically to clone engines (or rather, to be fair, I'd think it would have to be limited to one specific clone engine - and in turn, I suspect that unless that engine is NeoLemmix, there wouldn't be much interest) could absolutely be started if you like, but yeah, it would need to be kept separate for the sake of fairness.

Understood. I'll bet that the solutions shows in my replays would work in the original games though... I'll have to test it out!

Edit - when you say "original games", do you mean any of the DOS, Amiga, SNES, etc ports? Just to clarify.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #111 on: October 17, 2019, 08:36:56 pm »
All topics on Challenges except this one refer to the DOS version, and only the DOS version. (Unless another version is explicitly named in the topic title -- and there are even a couple for NeoLemmix.) That's because for most challenges, discovering the minimum number of skills, minimum types of skill and so forth is interesting enough to do once, but not interesting enough to maintain records for each version separately. (And merging results from different versions doesn't seem fair, since some of them have quite drastic gameplay differences.)

As for why the DOS version has primacy: DOS is one of the original versions (alongside Amiga); it's a version many of our members are more familiar with; and it's easier to test and share results for DOS thanks to the existence of Lemmix.

However, for this topic only, we track records for every version that we have information about, and we're happy to add results from another port if anyone posts them. That's because saving a certain number of lemmings is the main goal of the game, and seeing how many can be saved the most interesting challenge. The possibilities vary quite a bit between versions (e.g. Tricky 15 and 16 and Mayhem 26 on the Mac, thanks to the high-res graphics), so it makes sense to maintain a list for each version.