Author Topic: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records  (Read 29717 times)

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Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2012, 08:42:41 pm »
I've recently been having a go at some Mayhem levels of the original game and for this type of challenge I was stuck on 10 and 29. I need some advice on these levels as to how to pull off the old slider trick on 10. (I have done that trick before, but not in this case) As for 29 I don't know where the lemmings need to be turned to blockers. Some hints would be nice but replays are preferable.

I walked Fernito through Mayhem 29 a couple of years ago, and he posted a replay when he solved it.  I believe it's on page 7 of the "Oh No More Challenges" thread.

Mayhem 10 may be the hardest max-% challenge in the original game, with lots of pixel-precision moves and a few release rate changes that I can't remember off the top of my head.  ccexplore will probably be able to help you with that one.

Offline geoo

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2012, 09:23:39 pm »
I happen to have the 73/75 replay for Mayhem 10 lying around, it is due to ccexplore iirc. See attachment.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2012, 09:01:04 pm »
I'd still like to see this updated with definitive results from other versions of the game. Since there's already a nearly complete list for the Genesis, let's start by getting that out of the way, after which I'd like to have a go at the Mac version  :thumbsup:

EDIT: Lists deleted as LemSteven has added them to the initial post.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2012, 01:24:28 am »
I've added the results for Genesis Lemmings to the original post.  However, I've got virtually no familiarity at all with the NES or GameBoy versions, and to be consistent with the other results, it would help to have the number of lemmings in each level.  If I get that information, I'll add those versions to the original post, as well.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2012, 08:09:59 pm »
I only have the Mac emulator on my old laptop, plus I don't have a lot of free time recently.  When I have the chance I'll try and get back to you on Mac results.  And, keep in mind that without the replay features of Lemmix, you'll forgive me that I don't exactly feel highly motivated doing challenge work on the Mac version. ;P

For Tricky 23 you may want to refer back to my Lemmix replay for the lose 1 solution on the PC version, if you haven't already.  It's pretty much a glitch-free solution that should work mostly the same on the Mac, the one critical difference being that on the Mac, subtle differences in the miner terrain-removal shapes lead to more mining strokes required before you can stop the leakage of lemmings (thus you'll definitely lose a few more).

As for NES and Gameboy results, I definitely am not going to spend time anytime soon going back to try and look up individual level stats, if I can't find them already available effort-free on the web somewhere.  Actually I thought Finlay compiled such stats for various versions of Lemmings in his spreadsheets, so he may be able to assist in that regard.

Offline mobius

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2012, 08:42:08 pm »
I happen to have the 73/75 replay for Mayhem 10 lying around, it is due to ccexplore iirc. See attachment.

What is happening here? It doesn't look like the climber glitch to me. (the lemming is moving too fast) Plus, I thought that beam would be too thin for a lemming to get stuck in it.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2012, 11:43:11 pm »
Mac Tricky 23 improved to lose 4. I didn't view the Lemmix replay (I still don't have Lemmix...) but here's what I did, I figure it can't do any harm to let the cat out of the bag now:

Quote
Lemmings 2-11 become athletes, lemming 1 turns back and mines to the left as soon as he touches the foot of the stairs. (Because later lemmings have priority over earlier ones, this is the only place you can give him the miner, since you need him to be the only lemming under the cursor.) As it turns out, lemming 12 reaches the wall at almost exactly the same time, so pause immediately after assigning the miner, have lemming 12 bash, the rest is the normal solution and you'll only lose four.

Offline finlay

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2012, 03:12:51 pm »
As for NES and Gameboy results, I definitely am not going to spend time anytime soon going back to try and look up individual level stats, if I can't find them already available effort-free on the web somewhere.  Actually I thought Finlay compiled such stats for various versions of Lemmings in his spreadsheets, so he may be able to assist in that regard.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15543016/lem/Lemmings%20Levels.xls
I don't have Gameboy stats on it, and the NES stats are very incomplete; I think the number of lemmings and the time limit on each level is there, but I only have stats information for the fun levels and their repeats, and I got that from you. :P

Offline Proxima

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2012, 12:56:05 am »
Mac Taxing 27 lose 3 confirmed. It's tight, but if the first bomber is timed perfectly you can just get "round the corner" with the 10 builders given.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2012, 04:21:51 pm »
I've had a look at Mac Tricky 16, as Ephraim's lose 5 is one worse than this level's record on the PC version. Each bomber, as well as blowing a hole in one strand of the mesh, makes a tiny "dint" in the next strand. If the next bomber explodes while standing on the dint, he will get through two strands at once -- but without making a dint in the fourth strand. That means you need two bombers per three strands, and there are seven strands, so it looks like lose 5 is indeed the best that can be done. (Using a bomber at the start to save the miner for the mesh doesn't seem to help.)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2012, 06:05:50 pm »
Mac Taxing 28 improved to lose 11 (69/80). Not sure about lose 10; some very weird stuff is going on with activating the sliding glitch (and hey, it's my first ever time doing it!) The lemming must be facing left when the climber is assigned, or he can slip out through the hole above the build brick (even though he couldn't escape before climber was assigned) so maybe I was taking too long in waiting for the right moment -- and I may also have waited longer than necessary before bashing. Still, this is a substantial improvement on Ephraim's result!  :thumbsup:

EDIT: 70/80 confirmed!!!

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2012, 12:35:22 am »
(LemSteven, will you add the NES and GameBoy results [further up this page] to the first page please?)

Got it.  Also, I sorted all of the original Lemmings ports in alphabetical order.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2012, 01:29:59 am »
EDIT: 70/80 confirmed!!!

Good job! :thumbsup:

some very weird stuff is going on with activating the sliding glitch (and hey, it's my first ever time doing it!) The lemming must be facing left when the climber is assigned, or he can slip out through the hole above the build brick (even though he couldn't escape before climber was assigned)

First of all, this is actually not the sliding glitch, which doesn't involve climbers.  Let's call this one the stuck climber glitch. :P

Climbers are full of quirks in Lemmings, and in particular, when they hit their head and fall, they actually move two steps away from the wall rather than one step away.  This is what causes the lemming to slip out if the climber is assigned facing right.

One level using the real sliding glitch is Mayhem 10.  I should note that due to subtle differences in the basher mask between DOS and most non-DOS versions (namely, it only extends 7 [lo-res] pixels ahead horizontally in DOS, but 8 in many other versions), that affects the timing enough to require some adjustments to the exact RR changes etc. seen in the Lemmix replay, if you want to try it in other versions like the Mac.  I was able to get it working though on for example the SNES (which also disallows changing RR when paused, so even more restricted in those versions), so it should still be possible.  I think I have noted down the exact RR changes etc. for the bash-8 versions, if I can still find my old notes. :XD:

Offline Proxima

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #43 on: February 29, 2012, 08:09:35 pm »
Good job! :thumbsup:

Thank you 8) I may be a slow pupil, but I get there in the end!

Talking of slowness, the reason I've not yet looked at the remaining three levels that are still in doubt is that looking through the old challenge thread has made me realise that the Mac ONML records are in an absolutely dire state, with over half of the non-Tame levels never even looked at. To remedy this, I've compiled (from the old thread and from memory and some guesswork) a list of my own personal bests, and I intend to go over every non-100%-required level to try to bring these records in line with those achieved for the PC version, or where applicable to prove that this cannot be done. I know, this will take a while, and I know that some solutions (e.g. 100% on Wicked 14, one of the ones I crossed off yesterday) are just obviously version-independent... but I still want to do this for my own personal satisfaction, since the last time I've really played ONML was when I was just trying to complete the levels, and I've never gone back and tried to improve records, except for the few individual levels mentioned on the old thread. Also, I know the glitches now, so I don't need ccexplore to hand-hold me through some of the ones I couldn't solve before :)

Anyway, preamble over. We have our first confirmed result variance: Wicked 1 lose 1 is not possible on the Mac because the steel area extends above the visible steel terrain. (That this is the cause can be seen if you climb-bomb the OWW and try to explode another lemming inside it. If he's too low, no terrain will be destroyed, just as if he was standing on steel. Because he is.) This means you can't get past the OWW with only one bomb, except by digging down the middle and bombing (my original solution) -- but that's not lose 1 either because it's too slow, two will turn round. In fact the optimal solution is the climb-bomb plus another bomb I just mentioned; if placed accurately you can get the second bomber high enough to destroy terrain and far right enough to break through. A digger towards the right of the first dip, RR 99, and this is lose 2 (58/60).

I won't post my results for the other levels just yet, there are still too many listed as non-100% merely because I haven't even tried them yet :)

Offline finlay

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Re: Maximum Lemmings Saved Records
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2012, 02:50:45 am »
Steel areas work differently on the Mac – they're less forgiving than on DOS, where they're implemented quite lazily. I don't think the level is changed at all in the data file, it must just be that the way steel detection works has changed. The lose-1 Wicked 1 solution, IIRC, involves bombing just before the OWW and then bashing through the wrong way – steel detection only occurs on a single row of pixels or something, so the basher isn't detecting either the OWW or the steel area, because the detection pixels are "lower than" the first and "higher than" the second, even though his tunnel overlaps both.

What was your solution to "Compression Method 1"? As i'm aware, this is another one in which the DOS 100% solution involves bashing away the top few rows of pixels of the steel area in a way that you can't do on the Mac.