NeoLemmix Community Pack

[namida]

This topic is now closed. IchoTolot has taken over this project and created a new topic for it, which can be found here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4148.0


I suggested this idea once before, but now that NeoLemmix is a bit more stable (with updates not occurring on an almost-daily basis, and when they do, generally not changing or adding to gameplay mechanics but only interface-related or graphical features), perhaps it's a better time to suggest this project now.

So... who would be interested in such a thing? I'd like to aim to create something similar to the official games / Lemmings Plus packs in size; with contributions from a variety of authors. Of course, I'll contribute too. I think for stylistic reasons it's probably best we leave out the Horror, Xmas and Sega graphic sets (though if you disagree feel free to debate it), but all the others (official ones and LPII / LPIII sets) should be alright. The Xmas style in particular is out of place due to the different theme (and otherwise similarity to the Snow style); for Horror it's a matter of the much higher graphics quality than the others. Thinking more about it, Sega is probably fine...

I won't say this project is started yet, but if there's interest, then I'd say we should get this going! Obviously, NeoLemmix-based contest entries would mostly be good candidates to include here, as well as new levels. Existing levels that work particularly well under NeoLemmix mechanics, perhaps with some adjustments to make more use of NeoLemmix features, could also be good. One thing I do wonder about though is if the new skills will see much use; I'd rather either have them used regularly, or not at all, instead of just being these things used occasionally in the odd level here and there (though of course, at least Mechanic and Cloner will probably end up like that anyway; even in my own packs they've done so as they're quite situation-dependant and very vunerable to causing backroutes or being avoided themself).


So yeah. What do you guys think? Should we try and put together such a project?


Read before submitting!
Levels that were originally designed for other engines (including traditional Lemmix) are generally fine, but be sure to test them UNDER NEOLEMMIX before submitting. Although at a quick glance everything may appear to work the same, a lot of subtle mechanics differ - for example, a climber cannot pass through a small overhang at the top of a short wall in NeoLemmix. Also please tidy up skillsets (remove any skills that are unused rather than just setting them to zero), and if there's no reason the level needs a time limit, remove the time limit altogether. In short - this is a NeoLemmix pack; so while your levels don't have to go out of their way to make use of new NeoLemmix features, these kind of small tweaks to be consistent with the general approaches used in NeoLemmix should be made.

Also, make sure to put your name in the Author field!

Levels submitted so far:

All submitted levels can be found in this Dropbox folder: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/aig6srv3mtvvk39/AACnOIdWRlOWqkDQN_w7Lyt1a

[IchoTolot]

Sounds like a great idea!    Personally I still must get into NeoLemmix one day (I think you use the "NeoCustLemmix" setup in the editor to create new levels) and will probably try it out after I finished my own pack for Lemmini (2/3 done 100/150).
But after that is done and released; I would participate in creating levels for the pack.

[namida]

Yep, that's right. Although the editor contains presets for some other NeoLemmix-based games, you don't usually need to worry about this anymore, as unlike traditional Lemmix which relies on a graphic set number, NeoLemmix relies on a graphic set name and only uses the number as a fallback (if for example, the name isn't recognized, or when loading a traditional Lemmix level). Thus, I recommend just using NeoCustLemmix, as it contains all the graphic sets and VGASPECs from the official games (even including the Genesis ones), as well as those from Lemmings Plus and Doomsday Lemmings.

[GigaLem]

So level pack made by more than 1 person if im correct?
Sounds like a dapper idea 

[namida]

Yep; that's the idea. There's been several packs like this done on Lemmix and Lemmini already, and I believe mobius is managing a SuperLemmini one, but there hasn't been any for NeoLemmix yet.

[GigaLem]

Well if community pack many packs made by various users to certain lemmings players
Could i contribute with GigaLems

[namida]

I was hoping to mostly make it from levels that are either completely new, or were only released in small packs rather than as part of existing fangames, but if there isn't enough content this way, then including some from existing large packs could be an option. And, being a community pack, other people's input on what we should do in this regard also needs to be considered, so just because I say something doesn't nessecerially mean "that's final, this is how we're going to do it" (apart from the "we're using NeoLemmix", because otherwise it wouldn't be a NeoLemmix community pack ).

[namida]

So, here's some things I'd like to start thinking about; anyone can feel free to give their input:

1. Difficulty ranks. How many should we go for? I'm thinking 4 or 5 is probably ideal, though 3 might work.
2. Gimmick / Frenzy levels. As these are one of the most noticable NeoLemmix features, I think it'd be a shame not to include some. The bigger question is how - LPII-style where they're just mixed in (at a low frequency) with regular levels? LPIII style where they're the secret levels? LPO-style where there's a dedicated extra rank for them?
3. Repeats, or no-repeats? Having them would reduce the number of unique levels we need; we could just fill in early spaces with 20-of-everything versions of harder levels (and there's also the option of cases like with Danger 27 / Psycho 12 from LPI, where the two levels use the same map but have very different solutions).
4. Secret levels or not? Assuming we don't go with the LPIII-style for gimmick levels, then should we still have secret levels? On one hand, they're a pretty unique NeoLemmix feature, but on the other hand, while they were novel at first, I kinda feel they're more annoying that anything else now (hence the complete lack of them in Omega).

[IchoTolot]

4 or 5 ratings are fine I think, but personally I'm more of a fan of seperating the gimmik/frenzy levels into an extra rank.
Repeats should be done or not depending on how many levels (of each difficult) get together, or if a level is just born to be repeated (just my opinion). Having more different levels from more creators would be nicer than too many repeats.
Personally I an not a fan of secret levels. I think you should be able to play all the levels through beating them and not finding secrets.

[Wafflem]

I feel it should be 4 regular ranks, with the 5th rank being a gimmick/frenzy rank, very much like Lemmings Plus Omega. I also think that all levels should be unique (no repeats).

How many levels should there should be for each rank? 30?

Secret levels, hmm, there should be a poll on that. They can be fun to find, but at the same time they can be frustrating. I wouldn't use the LPIII method, however. In Lemmings Plus III, all gimmicks are secret levels, which I felt did not work for a couple of reasons:

• I don't think everyone took the effort to find the secret levels, most especially since it can be hard to find the secret levels in Rough and Fierce because they are among normal levels that are extremely difficult to pass.
• The Bonus Pack uses the Backwards and One Skill gimmicks, which both come from Rough and Fierce; it would be quite hard to accomplish those levels without firsthand experience with them in LPIII, but that experience cannot be reached unless the secret level is found. This was probably why I was the only one who took the effort to play the Bonus Pack (though I accessed the secret levels in LPIII by cheat).

In my opinion, the pack should also use all the gimmicks that have not been used in Lemmings Plus at all. The unused gimmicks are:
Reverse Count - skills go up instead of down, but stop counting up at 99.
Invincible - Lemmings don't die except the bottomless pit.
Steel Invert - Terrain is steel and vice versa
Solid Floor - the abyss is covered up, so lemmings do not disappear when they reach the bottom of the screen.
Disobedience - Lemmings shrug at you until you click on them a second time (while this appears in my first pack, it still needs to be used here)
Turnaround - Lemmings turn the opposite direction before performing the skill.
Other Skills - instead of the skill being used, all other skills count down by one.
Assign All - Every lemming is assigned a skill (except cloners).

What about NeoLemmix objects? For me, I'd like more locked exit puzzles (you know me, I enjoy locked exit puzzles and they add a very new puzzle element to the Lemmings game, with Secret 4 "Seven-Way Security" and Puzzling 30 "Drop Them Lems" being great examples; however they were severely underused in Omega). Slowfreeze and Radiation can be very frustrating though, so maybe those shouldn't really be used (though Rough 4 "I'm Gonna Try Science" makes great usage of the Radiation object).

[Nepster]

Some thoughts of mine:
Gimmick/Frenzy levels: I prefer having an extra rank to warn players, that unusual mechanics apply. But I do not see the reason why all non-used gimmicks should appear in this level pack? Only because there is the possibility to use something, it does not mean that it has to be used. In my opinion our criterium should be, that the levels make creative use of the gimmick. Unfortunately I do not see any way that a level with gimmicks "Reverse Count", "Solid Floor" or "Other skills" meets this criterium, but I like to be surprised by you!
Btw. "Invincible" seems almost equivalent to "Surviving bombers" + preassigned floaters + simply not adding any traps to the level. Do I miss anything here?

Repeats: I am against filling the first rank with 20-of-each versions of harder levels. But if one level admits two different solutions, I am in favour of including repeats featuring the alternative solutions.

Secret levels: Personally, I do not like searching the triggers of secret levels, but I would like to play these level themselves. So I would accept secret levels only if there is another possibility to reach these levels.

[namida]

One idea I had thought about, but didn't include, for Lemmings Plus Omega, was indeed secret levels based on a different concept; specifically based on completing certain challenges (to use the original game as an example, 100% on Tricky 25 "Cascade" could be an example of something that might unlock one). This idea could possibly be used for the community pack, although IMO if I was going to do this, I'd have to implement this as a standard NeoLemmix feature that anyone can use in their packs (which to be fair, I don't have a problem with doing beyond that it might be tricky to come up with an exact method of handling it).

Indeed, some of these gimmicks are little more than novelty things without much use for a real level; a lot of the weird ones involving skill counts were done back when I was accepting virtually any gimmick request, while the "reverse skill counts" was originally intended for LPII but I ended up creating the Overflow gimmick and using that instead; there's no real reason why RSC was left in the code, but it was, so it survives still. The "Invincible" one, specifically, wasn't really intended for use in actual levels, but more for testing purposes with various things. Though in comparison to the combo Nepster mentions, there would be slight timing differences due to them falling faster than floaters, as well as that it's possible to assign them Gliders.

I do agree though on the "don't use it just because it's there" option. Sure, if a good way to use it can be found, then go ahead, but if it can't, then I don't see the point in using it just for the sake of using it... At the same time, the "good way" of using it doesn't nessecerially have to be relating to a puzzle. It could just as easily be related to the theme of a level, especially in easier levels.

[Wafflem]

I really like the idea of accessing secret levels by completing certain challenges. I may do something like that for my packs. I plan for some of my future packs to be about 20 levels, which means FlexiLemmix will be needed to create such packs (since I'm not sure if CustLemmix can do that). This will be a great idea, and it could also work very well for the community pack.

How about Cheapo levels? Can those be included?

[namida]

Some of them may be good candidates; teleporters exist in Cheapo (though not in any of the styles based off official ones) so that already gives some use of NeoLemmix features.

And yeah, you'll need to use Flexi. CustLemmix only supports 10 regular levels + 5 secret levels.

[GigaLem]

If i could change the menu
i would do something like this

[namida]

I do plan to do some major overhauling to the menus at some point (for all players, not just this pack), but it won't be the next release. Possibly the one after that, though.

[namida]

So, I've made an original level that could possibly be used for this. It doesn't really make much use of NeoLemmix features though, apart from having an infinite time limit and having the unused skills entirely removed from the skill bar - it could definitely be designed in traditional Lemmix, and I'm more or less certain it'd be solvable there too. Hard to rank the difficulty, but if I had to guess I'd say late-Taxing?

If anyone else has any levels they'd like to submit, let me know. I'll also probably ask all submitters of NeoLemmix levels to the contests if they want to put their levels up for possible inclusion.

[Nepster]

Nice little level, but it took me three tries to position the blocker correctly, so that the third basher frees it. You are correct with your guess for the difficulty.

PS: I still don't understand why you include bombers in levels with 100% save requirement? Same goes for the newly replaced level in LPII btw.

[namida]

That's a backroute. >_> I thought of another backroute too, time to fix 'em both...

EDIT: Okay, here's a version that should fix both your backroute and my one. I'd have to say, if you thought that the solution you found was "late-Taxing", then maybe I really did underestimate this level... though I still wouldn't say it's harder than Mayhem at most.

As for the bomber thing... there's really no reason to it at all. I guess in some cases, it's just to catch people who aren't paying attention and don't realise the level requires 100%, in other cases there's no reason other than "it makes the level look like it has more skills than it really does". And then of course there's...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fierce 1, which despite requiring 100%, cannot be solved without using a bomber. But that's a very unique case. But that level is actually the reason why a lot of LPIII 100% levels have bombers, too - so that when the player gets to this level, they might think "oh, just another decoy bomber".

(I guess there's also "any 100%-required level that uses the non-fatal bombers" gimmick, but that's a bit different...)

EDIT: Found yet another backroute, uploaded yet another fixed version. No one downloaded V2 so I guess not much is lost...

EDIT: And already found a backroute in this version too... this solution looks pretty tricky to enforce...

EDIT: Think I've got it. The only change needed from V3 to fix the backroute was actually very small. So, here's V4. Fingers crossed...

EDIT: Seems solid now. Any potential backroute I can think of doesn't work out in practice.

Just for reference, the execution for this shouldn't be very fiddly. It's definitely not one of those levels where you have to keep trying adjusting moves by one or two pixels until everything lines up perfectly; it's one of the ones where once you know what to do, you shouldn't have much (if any) trouble pulling it off.

[Nepster]

Here two more solutions. V4_1 is hopefully pretty near to the intended one, but V4_2 is using the floater a little bit more than is probably wanted.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Solution V4_1 reminds me of möbius's level Conundrum found in mobius2.dat or in MobiLems or in the Lix Community level pack).

I'd have to say, if you thought that the solution you found was "late-Taxing", then maybe I really did underestimate this level... though I still wouldn't say it's harder than Mayhem at most.

I don't consider (late-)Taxing to be hard, e.g. I would consider the first half of Medi in LPDos (late)-Taxing as well.
If solution V4_1 is intended, then it is certainly Mayhem: It uses one trick, that is neither obvious nor used in many other levels.

... I guess in some cases, it's just to catch people who aren't paying attention and don't realise the level requires 100%, in other cases there's no reason other than "it makes the level look like it has more skills than it really does". ...

Well, when I first start the level, additional bombers make me quit the level again just to check the save requirements ("Was it really 100%?").
And what is the intention behind "making the level look like it has more skills than it really does"?
Of course, there are special levels that might require such bombers and if you have an x-of-each-skill level it is certainly OK to include bombers as well. But if you have an odd assortment of other skills, additional bombers just tend to confuse me.

[namida]

Solution 2 shouldn't be too hard to fix. Solution 1 is the intended one.

[Wafflem]

The Xmas style in particular is out of place due to the different theme (and otherwise similarity to the Snow style); for Horror it's a matter of the much higher graphics quality than the others. Thinking more about it, Sega is probably fine...

Yes, I would also like the Sega style to be allowed in the community pack.

Are the Genesis versions of the official styles also okay to use for this pack?

Also, how about VGASPECs? Although, for me, I don't think we should use them since we already have so many styles that we can use for the pack.

[Wafflem]

Found a backroute for the Winning Edge.

[namida]

That backroute is the same as Nepster's second solution, so I'm already aware of it. Just haven't got around to doing a fixed version yet.

EDIT: Okay, this should be solid. And in keeping with several other now-patched backroutes, it also makes that one just not work.

Also, I got the okay from Crane to include the two versions of "Precarious Construction" in this pack. DynaLem; any levels from your small packs that you would like to put forward for inclusion? (I'll also go through them again to see if there's any in particular that stand out to me as possible candidates).

[namida]

Got the okay from Nepster to include "Lost in Colourland". This brings us to four levels so far.  I PM'd everyone who's submitted a NeoLemmix level to the contest to ask how they feel about including their submissions, apart from Giga, since I know the only level he's entered comes from a large pack he's working on.

In response to DynaLem's questions above (sorry, didn't see them before):

Genesis styles should be fine. I don't know if it's maybe a bit pointless, but the other thing is that they can always be quickly switched to the regular versions later if there's any decision against it at some point.
VGASPECs, I don't have any problem with them in general, but I don't know that we'd want to have too many of them.


As always, if anyone feels differently about anything I've said, speak up! I don't want to just be setting all the rules here, it is a community pack after all.

[Wafflem]

Sure! You can use any of my levels in any of my packs (including the Unused Gimmick one) for the community pack. 

I'll get back to you on which levels to submit, but if there's any levels you like, let me know and I'll PM them to you since my packs are encrypted.

However, some of these levels use the NeoLemmix skills (most of the ones in pack 2, specifically), so I'm not sure if they should be included.

If you use any of the secret levels, I'm fine with them being among regular levels.

[namida]

NeoLemmix skills are fine, if there's enough levels using them. If I create more, they're likely to use them; it just so happens that for The Winning Edge, it worked better without them IMO.

[Wafflem]

For the NeoLemmix Skills Levels, I think levels from my packs like "The Ice Bucket Challenge," "The Cracks," "Level Nein" (I may likely make a harder version of this one), "Under the Boardwalk," "Unlock Your Lemmings" and "The GAURDIEN" could work.

Then again, I'm the only one aside from you who's made levels with the NeoLemmix Skills so far.

Some level suggestions for you to add:
1. This Cheapo test level, which looks like a very fun level that's not hard. If you won't allow the Cheapo graphics since they have the same RGB quality as the Horror tileset, then this level can easily be remade in the Tree style.

2. (warning, this is Neo Lemmings Plus II-related for those who haven't seen the changes in the Genius rating yet):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I was surprsied that you replaced Genius 18 "A Little Breather" with a harder level. While I do agree that it's can be awkward for an easy level to be in the Genius rating, I felt that this level should not be removed entirely (especially since the Tree style is rarely used for this pack). I still felt that this one was a decent challenge, and should come back in this pack.

[namida]

That could be worth considering. The old Medi 8 may also make a good addition; this was a level I personally didn't care much for but a lot of people seemed to like it, at least enough to question why I removed it rather than certain other levels in the V7 update.

[namida]

Got one more submission, from DynaLem. "The GAURDIAN!" from his new level pack.

That aside, I also made another level. Even though I haven't been able to find any, I have a strong suspicion there's some backroutes hiding in this one; intended solution should be approximately the same difficulty-wise as (or maybe a little bit harder than) "The Winning Edge". This one's also a bit more "NeoLemmix-y"; it has vertical scrolling and uses Platformers.

That's 6 submissions so far. 1 Fire, 1 Brick, 1 Rock, 2 Tree and 1 Psychedelic.

Remember, anyone is welcome to submit levels! And if you don't agree with one of the rules, discuss it! In particular, I'm thinking of loosening up the "no levels from big packs" to simply "no levels from big Lemmix/NeoLemmix packs" (ie: allowing converted levels from big Lemmini packs; of course it goes without saying that it has to be your levels (or with the author's permission) that you submit). Of course in this case, you're encouraged to modify them to make use of NeoLemmix features, but it isn't essential for every level.

[Wafflem]

In particular, I'm thinking of loosening up the "no levels from big packs" to simply "no levels from big Lemmix/NeoLemmix packs" (ie: allowing converted levels from big Lemmini packs

That's a great idea and will really help with this pack. What about levels with custom graphics (like the Castle levels from Pieuw's PimoLems, the Lemmini version of the Tribes styles, etc.)?

...of course it goes without saying that it has to be your levels (or with the author's permission) that you submit).

What about levels that are really good, but there is no way to contact the author on if it's okay to include them (such as the VTM levels, Ben Conway, Juanjo, tumble_weed, etc.)?

Also, I've PM'd you some more levels for submission from my three packs. I might include some levels from my unused gimmick pack. If I were to submit "Turn Around Bright Eyes", however, I need to remake this level in an LP style since the Horror style is not accepted; this shouldn't be a problem, though.

Are you still willing to accept Sega submissions? I did make a lot of good levels using that style (especially Super Starship, which made it to the finals).

[namida]

There's no means of converting Lemmini styles to NeoLemmix at the moment (other than doing it manually), so that could be problematic. Of course, with the NeoLemmix graphic set format documented, and LemSet being open source, there's nothing to stop anyone who feels confident with doing some coding from making a tool to convert them. (Yeah, I know, I'll probably end up making the tool eventually. xD)


Simply throwing the levels in as-is somewhat defeats the purpose of using NeoLemmix; at the very least they should be modified for accurate steel, cutting out empty space, etc. While I might be okay with merely including levels from such people, I definitely think I draw the line at modifying them. It may take longer to get the pack done this way, but I think it's a bit more ethical too. And besides, the more original content, the better; and if that doesn't happen, then at least the more intended-for-NeoLemmix content, the better. At the very least, at least levels should have blank space removed (by using the resizing / shifting the level), and all skills with zero count removed.

Yep, Sega style is fine. Beyond the unusual colour scheme (which could also be said about Psychedelic and maybe even Circuit styles), it doesn't really stand out any more than any other specific style does, so I don't think it'll look too out-of-place.


One thing I'm wondering about is training levels. Should we have some kind of training levels in this? Perhaps a dedicated rank for them, covering not just the new skills, but also the new types of objects?


Also, thanks to a batch-submission from DynaLem, we now have 10 levels total (including my new one posted above). I'm willing to bet the current contest will result in at least one or two more potential submissions too. 11 if you count "A Little Breather" (from older versions of LPII); I didn't think of that at first because I haven't extracted it from the old data files and put it into my "collection of potential levels" folder yet. That one aside, you're probably only going to see completely-new levels from me in this (and if this project doesn't go anywhere, I'll either distribute them as a NeoCustLemmix pack, or include them in a new project).

[exit]

Would christmas levels be allowed as entries?

Here's three levels that I made. One of them is a Christmas level.

I know this "isn't very believable", but all of them are 100% possible(I have replays for one).
They're mostly harder levels.

Okay, I attached them.

[namida]

Personally I was thinking avoiding using that set (we could always use Snow instead), but no one else has said much either way about it. If in general people don't see too much of a problem with it, then I guess it's okay.

However - looks like you forgot to attach the levels.

[namida]

"A Brilliant Facade" and "The Wall" don't seem to be possible under NeoLemmix, due to differences in basher and climber mechanics respectively. "At Night" works fine, but it's very simple - not that that's a bad thing; the pack obviously needs easier levels too (though I'd say this one is more mid-range, not "easy" as such). I do notice that these are actually regular Lemmix levels, not NeoLemmix ones - that's fine (since NeoLemmix can use traditional Lemmix levels, and converting them to native NeoLemmix format is very simple too), but make sure you test them under NeoLemmix, especially when relying on precise details of the mechanics - while any level that doesn't rely on over-precise details will generally work fine under either, those that rely on finer details may not (eg. any that involves building through the bottom of a platform, any that involves a climber passing through terrain at the top of a short wall, any that involves bashers stopping due to lack of terrain from interactions with other skills). "A Brilliant Facade" might actually be possible by lining things up perfectly, but unless there's something major I'm missing, "The Wall" isn't.


I would also recommend removing any skills that aren't used from the skillset, rather than just leaving them there as zero. It looks tidier. (You'll be able to do this once the levels are in NeoLemmix format; the NeoLemmix Editor won't let you do it in traditional Lemmix levels because traditional Lemmix doesn't have such a function.)

[namida]

By the way, since I hadn't posted these yet, here are the intended solutions to my two submissions.

[Wafflem]

Just to make sure, are levels using Cheapo styles accepted, or rejected in the same vein as the Horror style since the Cheapo graphics are pretty much on-par in quality with the Horror graphics?

[Nepster]

I haven't looked at the intended solution to "Try To Be A Lemmings", but here is a replay using only one of the three climbers. The last gap requires pixel-precise assignment of the platformer btw.

[exit]

I changed At Night to have less skills(which might make it a bit easier) and converted it to the snow style.

I attached replays for both levels(I solved A Brilliant Facade in NeoLemmix, but you might notice on the replay that I forgot to put up the release rate in on time).

[namida]

Seems you forgot to attach the files again... (<--- not like I haven't done that myself a million times or anything )

[namida]

Okay, I checked your replay Nepster, and it should be easy enough to fix.

I do need to tone down the precision of that platformer a bit. Problem is, it needs to stay impossible to make the lemming turn around; there's about a two pixel difference between pixel-precision and able-to-turn-around with platformers. Though I guess this could also be worked around by simply making the other side a bit lower.

[namida]

Here's V2 of "Try To Be A Lemming". It removes the need to be pixel-precise with that final platformer, as well as hopefully patching up that backroute.

[namida]

Okay, I checked these out. Indeed, I'd overlooked something in A Brilliant Facade. As you mention, your replay doens't quite work - not due to release rate issues, but rather, one lemming slips out the bottom. I've managed to slightly modify your solution to get it to work.

I really like the new version of "aT NiGHt". Although I was able to solve it without the blocker; not sure it that was intended or not. By the way, your replay for this level doesn't work - it appears you saved the replay before actually doing anything.

[Nepster]

Author guess: Nepster – A small, hard, technical level.

As it seems that I already have a certain reputation, I may as well post another such level . Not sure, whether it is suitable for a Community Level Pack, but that is for others to decide...

PS @namida: May I remind you of

Currently noted suggestions [for NeoLemmix Editor]
> Handling deleted pieces in the fashion the original Lemmix editor

If you want to know why, then try to count how many terrain pieces I needed for that branch and how deeply they are stacked. Or even better: Try to recreate it.

[GigaLem]

I am going to contribute some levels to this (About 15 i'll post when im done)
But i have an idea for a name
"Neo-Lemmings" what do you think
like it? or do you have an idea yourself?
go ahead and tell me

[exit]

I like that name , but it doesn't seem to be the kind for a community pack(not that I have experience with naming community packs, it's a fitting name, in my opinion).

[GigaLem]

Another name pop'd up in my head
"Lemmings Megamix"
what do you think?
speaking of names i wonder how many ratings we'll have but i was thinking up some names
"Soothing"
"Cautious"
"Supreme"
"Punishing"
Have any ideas i'd like to hear it
(I wish i can be as creative as mobilems)

[namida]

Personally, I'd like to see it have something in the name that reflects that it's a NeoLemmix pack. "Lemmings Neo-Mix" would be a possible one derived from your suggestion, although I also feel that's a kinda awkward name. Anyway, feel free to keep the suggestions coming.

As for the rank names, I do quite like those, although I'd swap "Punishing" and "Supreme" around.


By the way - I realised I should've done this sooner; but I made a Dropbox folder (and linked it in the first post) containing all submissions so far.

[GigaLem]

Aaaaaaaaaand its done
hope you enjoy these levels

[namida]

Playing them now, and so far, they seem pretty good! I'm playing in alphabetical order by filename (not by level name).

Son of a Birch was fairly simple; I don't really know that Frenzy adds much to the level though.
Tip of the Blade is definitely a very clever puzzle!
I'm currently stuck on "Special Beam Cannon". I've managed to save 88%, but that isn't quite enough... EDIT: Got it. I just needed to swap two skills around. Great level!
Clockwork Grey, I'm pretty sure I backrouted. I saved one lemming more than the requirement, and the Cloner served no purpose in my solution apart from getting that one extra lemming.
Coarse, Grain etc, not a bad level. The time limit is a bit tight, and doesn't seem to serve much purpose, though.
Up a creek without a Basher, this one I'm almost certian is a backroute, unless most of the level just serves as a distraction. I'd also say this is another one where a time limit is unnessecary.
Harder Better Faster Stronger, while visually it's very impressive, if my solution is the intended one it's pretty much just a pixel-precise miner followed by a fairly obvious remaining solution. It could be a good early(ish) level if the miner didn't need to be so precise. But this might be a backroute, too.
Try To Keep Him Digging, you've overlooked a MAJOR backroute here.
No Brakes On The Lemming Train, I think this may be a backroute too, but even if not, it's a pretty good level.
Into The Builderless is another one with a major backroute.
Lemming No Climb Stairs is a solid medium-difficulty level.
Quarantine is another one I'm fairly sure I've backrouted. Didn't need to go anywhere near the zombies, and had plenty of skills left over.
Quick Pyramid is a very interesting concept for a Frenzy level. I like it!
Mobi Did You Shrink The Levels?, this is fairly nicely done. The time limit actually works well here, and while I had skills spare, I get the feeling this is meant to happen. However, in case you weren't aware, this concept is originally Insane Steve's idea (as far as I know), not Mobius's.
Slap Me Lemming Sideways is a very nice level, though the exit's position is very unforgiving. I'd suggest moving it up a few pixels; currently you have to build right at the edge of the platform and stretch the builder almost perfectly at each shrug in order to reach it.

[GigaLem]

I have to say I love your solution to No brakes on the lemming train i wouldn't call it a backroute
i updated the levels hopefully with no backroutes

[namida]

I'll check them out later. Currently trying to fix that fucking replay release rate bug. >_>

[namida]

Okay; first: It'd help if you added "_V2" or something to the end of the levels you've changed, so I know which ones to check again.

Clockwork Grey - All I had to do was use the Cloner where I previously used the Walker. This does mean it no longer saves every lemming, but it does still work. However, I did notice a minor bug relating to Cloner-adjusted percentages when playing this level (specifically, that it doesn't take pickup skill cloners into account), so thanks for that.
Up A Creek Without A Basher - You haven't actually fixed the backroute; just made it a lot harder to pull off. With that being said, it looks like your intended solution involves setting up a miner to go through not one but several builder bridges, which would be quite annoying - on the other hand, the solution I've found would actually make it quite a good level anyway.
Try To Keep Him Digging - The backroute still works; you just have to use a digger instead of a miner for it now.
Into The Builderless - This is a pretty good level now! I don't think my solution is a backroute (although it does save 100% when the level only requires 96%); at any rate it definitely doesn't break the level in the same way the first backroute did.
Slap Me Lemming Sideways - Same solution works with minor adjustments, though I'm not sure if this is intentional. The exit's position is much better now.

All the levels not mentioned here, my V1 replays still worked fine, so they either weren't (and possibly didn't need to be) updated or the backroutes weren't fixed at all. By looking at the filesizes, it looks like you may have also updated "Son of a Birch" and "Special Beam Cannon", but my V1 replays for both still worked.

[GigaLem]

Yeah that though just ocurred in my head
Hopefully this works

[GigaLem]

Shall we set up a poll for the Level pack's Name?

[exit]

Here's a new level I made, not sure how quickly it'll be solved.

[namida]

I had a quick look at it - I was able to solve 70%, but haven't yet worked out how to solve the required 90%. I'll try more tomorrow. I've placed it in the collection of submitted levels.

Giga - I didn't look at your new-updates yet, but considering that my replays haven't been downloaded yet, don't you think it's worth checking those out before assuming you've fixed the (currently unknown to you) backroutes I found?

Nepster - I finally took a look at Stonerhenge, didn't solve it yet though. I see this level as potentially being quite annoying, though I'll reserve a final judgement until I've actually solved it. (Maybe there's a trick you've thought of that I haven't)

[GigaLem]

Another update to "up a creek without a basher"
Plus another level known as "Back and Forth"

[namida]

Alright; despite the fact you didn't actually view the replays of my last backroutes, I had a go on your updated levels:

Try To Keep Him Digging - Well, the *exact* solution I used last time is now fixed, but something very similar still works.
Up a Creek Without A Basher - Again, the exact solution I used before still works, but I just had to change it a little bit to get it to work again. It's actually easier to do my backroute with this update.
Back and Forth - I'm not sure what the Miner was meant for, but I get the feeling I still found the intended trick even if I executed it slightly differently. This level is quite easy, but it's a solid one that shows off a useful trick.


exit, I still haven't been able to solve your level. This is quite a tough one! I have managed to improve it to 80%, but not to the required 90% yet...
EDIT: Got it! Okay, that was a really good level!

[GigaLem]

HOW DO I FIX THAT?!
i can't de-back route this level becuase when i though i remove it another one appears
i can't remove the stone becuase you'll use the stacker just
how do i fix the level just HOW?!?

[namida]

I'm away until Saturday, but if you send me a replay of your intended solution I'll see if I can work something out. Perhaps use preplaced lemmings?

[GigaLem]

the problem is where?

[namida]

I don't know what your intention is, but might it work if you replace the top entrance with one or two preplaced lemmings?

[GigaLem]

But how would i make the solution work
because you need stackers to keep the digger digging and the climbers climbing

[namida]

Let me make this very blunt. If you want anyone to be able to tell you how to make your intended solution work, without backroutes, they will need to know exactly what your intended solution is. As in post a video (or better yet, a replay) of the whole solution. Not just "how do I make this work?" or vaguely menyioning one trick.

[IchoTolot]

I've gotten an idea for a level while relaxing with some music in my bed and I thought this would be a good one for the pack!

[namida]

Had a quick look at that level, and it looks very challenging indeed! I'll get back to you tomorrow with an actual attempt at solving it.

[IchoTolot]

Quick fix:   Forgot about Screen sart

[namida]

Finally managed to beat IchoTolot's level! Definitely a great challenge!

[IchoTolot]

Backroute A "Central Trick" wasn't used by namida.

Fixed it! A few pixels ereased at the sides of the middle block.

[Nepster]

Here is an alternative version of Fourtissimo, removing the solutions by Giga, IchoTolot and Akseli and (hopefully) enforcing the intended one.

[Nepster]

I just tried the levels by exit, Giga, namida and IchoTolot. Here are replays (using Player V1.33n).

@exit

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A brilliant facade: Not yet solved. I expect some major fiddling is required.
aT niGHt: Good level, except for the ONML-stYLe tITlE .
Skullduggery: My solution is pretty straight-forward and not that interesting. Might be a backroute though.

@GigaLem

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Overall I wonder about the many (ofter rather harsh) time limits. Do you really feel that the levels get more interesting with all these time limits?
Back and Forth: VERY similar to finlay's Fiery Depth in finpack01.dat. Both levels are very good though.
Son of a birch!: Easy level, except for the combination of frenzy gimmick and skill assignments on different parts of the level nearly at the same time...
Tip of the Blade: The time limit is very annoying here. Otherwise a good level, that allows for a solution saving 21/20.
Special Beam Cannon: HIDDEN TRAP ! Otherwise an interesting level.
Clockwork Grey: Good level. The one-way-field extends into the terrain above. This is slightly annoying if one bashes away parts of this terrain and instead of continuing ahead, the worker lemmings gets trapped!
Coarse, grain, ...: Just build over any obstacle and you will be fine...
Up a creek...: Most likely a backroute.
Harder, Better, ...: I have one builder spare . Good level, though I wonder at the use of some parts of the terrain.
Try to keep him digging: I tried, but failed . Feels like a backroute.
Lemming Train: Excellent level .
Into the Builderless: Not really a fan of this one. namida has more interesting no-builder levels in his LemPlus series and the level is not really beautiful.
Lemming climb no stairs: Nice interplay between climber/cloner/bomber.
Quarantine: Far too straight-forward builder level for my taste.
Quick Piramid: Another Frenzy gimmick level...
Mobi, did you shrink the levels?: Excellent design and puzzle .
Slap me... Not my favourite.

@namida

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Still one climber spare, but now I made use of the little brick floating in the middle, so I guess I am pretty near the intended solution. The time limit is evil though.

@IchoTolot

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Glider assignment is somewhat frustrating, especially as the ones facing left require quite a bit of precision. Otherwise a very good level that needs quite a bit of planning. At first, I missed the small terrain pieces on top of the exit though...

[IchoTolot]

Ah another backroute to fix!   That precision on the left side is not needed.  Adjusted the flamethrowers and cutted the digging area again + a little less save req 

[exit]

I fixed skullduggery, so now the intended solution is completely enforced(as far as I know, at least, but I can't find any other backroutes). The fix is somewhat crude, but hopefully the level still looks aesthetically pleasing.

[exit]

Here's a new level that I just quickly made. It's quite simple, and I would probably rate it in the first or second rating(depending on the difficulty curve of the pack).

[namida]

Oops, seems I missed that one until now. Here's a replay; this is almost certianly a backroute though.

EDIT: And a different solution, this time saving 100%.

[namida]

Here's a new level I made that could go into the pack. I'd say this one's a bit on the harder side, though not extreme.

[Wafflem]

Looks like I've backrouted the level.

Also, now that the LPIV styles are released, will those be accepted, or not accepted since they are RGB-palette-based like the Horror graphic set? And would this also apply to the converted Cheapo graphic sets?

[namida]

I really don't know if I'm too worried about that anymore. The quality of the levels is the most important factor.

Regarding the backroute, it's fairly simple to fix. (In fact, this fix may render the one-way walls unnessecary too, but I'll look more into that tomorrow.)

[Wafflem]

How's this one?

[namida]

That's the intended solution.

[namida]

So, we've just reached... 40 levels. xD

Just for the record, this isn't an abandoned idea. Submissions are still welcome.

[IchoTolot]

Remember all of my recent contest entries are free to use for the pack.
Inclodes:  T=0K (if DynaLem has nothing against it)
                 Deserted Cities of the Heart  (if möbius has nothing against it)
                 True Grid
                 Escape from Lemlab

As well as: Apocalypse Maintement  (the second updated version)

And in the next days I will have enough time again to create stuff, but I will see what I will give to the community pack and what I will keep for possibly future packs of my own (and there is also the new contest) .

[namida]

We're down to 39 levels now. DynaLem withdrew his submissions since he plans to use them in his own large level pack (which is fine, of course).

I added "A Little Breather" (a level formerly in Lemmings Plus II which was removed in one of the more recent updates) to my submissions. Some of the removed LPI levels could also be used in here maybe, although the only one I can see as being worthy of submission is "Take Us All Home" (Pre-V7 2; formerly Medi 8). Though if I come up with any good non-Zombie levels in the near future, that'll be more submissions for this, since I'm not working on any packs aside from Doomsday Lemmings II at the moment.

[namida]

I had an idea for a level based on a backroute I found in Revenge of the Lemmings. Since I couldn't think of a way to work it into a Doomsday Lemmings II level, I decided to make a level for this instead. Enjoy!

If you need a hint...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The key to crowd control (and release) is a variation on the Medi 6 trick. This version of the trick would not work on most other clones, but it's probably doable on Lix.

[namida]

Made another level that can go towards this project.

[Wafflem]

Hmm, looks like I've backrouted Blessed By a Curse.

Also, ther has been a lack of contribution to this lately as there are only 41 levels. I'd like to contribute some levels once I am done with my pack (or if I make some levels that I feel end up not fitting in DynaLems). Due to this, how many levels should we aim for? I'm thinking 80 or 100.

Also, I'm strongly thinking we should include Button Mashing For Experts, which is created by (in order) möbius, me, Nepster, namida and IchoTolot.

[namida]

I'm not sure about the total. If submissions continue to be slow, maybe around 50 - 60 is ideal (taking into account that some may end up being culled for whatever reason). If they pick up a bit, perhaps 100 is a better goal.

This should fix that backroute.

[Wafflem]

Hopefully, this should be the solution.

60 sounds like a reasonable number, considering the lack of contribution.

What about the levels from the seventh and eighth contests? I noticed that there aren't any in the Dropbox folder.

[namida]

I don't think I ever got around to asking the contestants about those (I think a lot of them were from large packs, anyway?).

Anyway, you're getting closer to the intended solution. Hopefully this one enforces it.

[Wafflem]

This one seems to be another backroute.

[namida]

Hmm... not entirely sure how I could block that one without affecting the intended solution. I'll have to think about it. You are getting even closer, though.

[Wafflem]

I did some brief skimming through all the levels submitted so far, and I have to say - a lot of them are super-hard and I'd say over even Mayhem difficulty.

I might need to contribute some Tricky-difficulty levels to balance this out.

A very small number of levels use gimmicks (in fact, only about two Frenzies and one Zombie). Because of this, I'm not sure if the Community pack should use gimmick/frenzies at all.

Also, I cannot open Nepster's Fourtissimo, because of the vgagr5.dat error and that NeoLemmix no longer supports old formats.

Just a thought: we have some styles that are based on games such as Supaplex, Super Mario, Sonic the Hedgehog (Green Hill), and Nicky Boum (Pieuw's Castle tileset). What do people think of creating a special level for each rank, much like A Beast of a Level etc. in Orig Lemmings?

[Nepster]

Here is Fourtissimo again. I can open it with V1.37; please tell if you still have problems.

[Wafflem]

It works now, thanks!

[namida]

In general, for older levels like that that won't load directly in the player, they should still load correctly in the editor (and if re-saved from there, will be upgraded to the latest format). Although I did put code into the player that should detect the correct graphic set to use, so I'll have to look into why that's not working...

EDIT: Now that I think about it, this code wasn't in V1.37n itself. It is in the latest experimental version, but hasn't been tested (at all) yet.
EDIT: Tested the feature in the experimental version. It appears to work for traditional Lemmix / DOS levels, but not with older NeoLemmix levels. So I guess I need to fix that up.
EDIT: Fixed. Haven't uploaded a new experimental version yet; want to get in more than one fix before I do.

[namida]

I moved this topic to the Other Projects board; I feel that's a more appropriate place for it.

Anyway, I still haven't come up with a way to fix that level (without breaking the intended solution) yet. But I did make this quick, easy level earlier to test rotation of pieces out; it could maybe be included as an easy level, or alternatively, someone might want to use it as a base to build a harder level from.

This level requires NeoLemmix V1.38n, it will not work on V1.37n or earlier due to using terrain rotation!

[namida]

Finally fixed up "Blessed By A Curse". I was hoping to avoid pickup skills for this one, but it doesn't seem there's any other way to enforce the intended route.

[mobius]

Blessed by a curse is a very interesting level. I haven't solved it yet but it's one of those where part of the solution seems obvious but there's many possibilities and working out the details is really tough.

I know I said many times I haven't been in level making mood lately; but it's up and down. If anyone wants me to make levels for this pack I can try. DynaLem said we need easy levels so I can try to make some of those.

[namida]

Here's a hint:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The solution involves three workers. Two of them die; the third death is one of the crowd lemmings.

[Nepster]

Nice level! This should be the intended solution.

[namida]

That is indeed the intended solution.

[Nepster]

Here is tseug's level NULL with a slightly changed save requirement of 77 lemmings, no time limit and a totally new solution.

[IchoTolot]

I noticed that "Apocalypse Maintenant" will/is broken, but it was a simple fix (adding 1 steel block and my old replay still works ).
Attached is the new version.

[namida]

^ Added/updated both these levels in the Dropbox folder. I put NULL under the "Multiple Authors" folder.

[namida]

Here's a "level" which I made to use in an image, rather than for gameplay purposes. If anyone wants to try and make an actual level out of it, be my guest.

[Wafflem]

What image is the level meant for?

[rtw]

So I made a level that I ended up being kind of proud of that I think I'd like to submit. Note that it uses the Rising Water gimmick.

I also seem to recall that you noted a distinct lack of easier levels being submitted, so I'll chip in my level "Supply and Demand" as well.

[IchoTolot]

So I made a level that I ended up being kind of proud of that I think I'd like to submit. Note that it uses the Rising Water gimmick.

I also seem to recall that you noted a distinct lack of easier levels being submitted, so I'll chip in my level "Supply and Demand" as well.

The gimmicks will be culled except for zombies in the next big update, due to underusage of these + they made the code a big mess

But the other level seemed very neat on YT and as mentioned: We need some easy ones!

Maybe the timer can be cutted though as it already has a timer in form of the walkers.

[IchoTolot]

As i am here right now :  Attached is a new version of "Escape From Lemlab" (+ replay) without usage of the "Fake" option + removal of 1 platformer.

[rtw]

Awww. Sucks about the gimmick thing. I get it, though.

Resub of "Supply and Demand" sans timer attached, plus another new one I just finished.

[Flopsy]

Maybe if the level I submitted for rtw's stream does well then I could submit it to this community pack

[namida]

For rtw's levels (excluding 100 Year Flood), here's my replays.

"Half The Man I Used To Be" is almost certianly a backroute.
"Supply and Demand", the walkers aren't a huge limit. I solved it here using only two of them. Nice level, anyway!

I am wondering though - is there any reason you chose to use the Cheapo Snow style over the regular one? This is generally not recommended.

[rtw]

How do you watch replays?

I didn't realize I'd used the Cheapo style; I can change it.

[namida]

To watch a replay, press the Load Replay hotkey during gameplay (if you haven't reconfigured the hotkeys, it'll be L).

On that note - to save one, press (by default) U. You can also in the config menu set it to automatically save replays of all successful level attempts. (Note: Do not rely on auto-saving of replays if you have a version between (inclusive) V1.38n-B and V1.43n-D; these versions have a bug that sometimes causes them to save an emtpy replay instead. V1.43n-E fixes this bug.)

[rtw]

"Well, shucks" on the "Half the man" level. Though for what it's worth, the intended solution looks way cooler.

Mind = BLOWN by the S&D replay. I'd actually suggest that as a talisman thing, i.e., "Complete 'Supply and Demand' using only 2 walkers."

[mobius]

Half the Man I used to be looks to have a complicated solution. But it clearly has some major loopholes. I attached a solution that saves two more than necessary. If you have the time I'd love to see it fixed/ to see the intended solution. To be fair, fixing a level is sometimes hard work and aggravating.

fyi The Cheapo set has things the 'regular' set does not; like the larger steel blocks and differently shaped snow pieces.  This goes for all the Cheapo/ONML conversions.

It's unrelated but did Peter Spada draw these graphics himself or somehow create them using the originals? Or did they come from another game?

[namida]

The Ohno Cheapo sets appear to be direct rips from ONML, with some extra things (eg. rotated versions of pieces added; which is not critical for NeoLemmix now that it has a Rotate option). The only exception is the steel in the Bubble set, which I think he made from scratch.

The Orig Cheapo sets, on the other hand, I believe are Essman's own work.

[rtw]

For what it's worth, here is the intended solution to "Half the man". If it helps anyone with backroute-proofing, that'd be awesome.

[Nepster]

Here another level for the community level pack. The original level by Leviathan required not only one, but several glitches. But the terrain layout was quite interesting, so I added some more skills and changed the terrain slightly to make the level solvable.

[Flopsy]

Submitting the updated version of the contest #9 winner for this community pack

Thanks to everyone who voted for it

[Apjjm]

I'll submit my contest #9 level too (attached) - Had fun making it . Though i did read you wanted to avoid the sega tileset, I can remake the level in another tileset, but if i'm going to do that i might just end up making a different level altogether anyway at that point.

[namida]

Though i did read you wanted to avoid the sega tileset

Tileset concerns have long since been dropped. That was written back when pretty much only the official tilesets, the LPII ones and the LPIII ones existed.

[Dullstar]

How are you guys doing for easier levels?  My levels have never been particularly difficult, but I think I might be able to make anywhere between Fun and up to about mid-Taxing difficulty levels.

[Flopsy]

Dullstar, we might have a lot of Fun/Tricky type levels incoming after the contest, one of the rules is to create a Fun/Tricky/Tame type level.

That is of course if people want to donate their entries to the community pack, I will definitely donate mine

[namida]

Even if we get a few from this contest, we still will have room for plenty more. So if you've got levels you think are suitable and you don't plan to use in your own packs, submit 'em!

[Ron_Stard]

After many years of just playing with your levels, finally I have dared to create one by myself! This miscelaneous level project encourage me to do it.

I hope you like it, it's no big deal. Please, notice that it only will work on NeoLemmix. Comments and fierce critics are welcome!


Honi Soit

[Wafflem]

I'd like to request the removal of The Sweltering Warehouse and T=0K, as those will be used in my upcoming pack.

Also, just a thought, but I'm wondering if we can include some the levels from the canceled Epic Lemmings Fangame that Dullstar originally started?

The levels submitted for that fangame were:
Dullstar: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3
GigaLem: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3
Fernito: Pack (Clonic Inferno and Dilemma cannot be used as they are already part of Revenge of the Lemmings)

[Ron_Stard]

I've made a second level. I had a lot of fun designing it! . Hope you like this one, too.


Marooned

[Colorful Arty]

That looks beautiful! I especially like the palm trees you made. Very well done!

[Minim]

Indeed, I like the innovative design of the tree as well. However, lots of water to travel across also means lots of repetitive building.

[Ron_Stard]

That looks beautiful! I especially like the palm trees you made. Very well done!

Thank you!

[L]ots of water to travel across also means lots of repetitive building.

Oh, don't worry: I took advantage (partially) of the new tasks NeoLemmix offers.

[Wafflem]

Here's a replay for Marooned, which I'm not sure is the intended solution. If it is, the building wasn't really fun (especially since I had to use the builders in a precise part to be able to go over the 10-ton-trap without getting crushed). Otherwise, the level is interesting and quite challenging, and I feel that it could work in about late-Tricky to early-Taxing.

I haven't beaten Honi Soit yet. However, is there any reason that the thin terrain next to the two trapdoors is made of steel? I feel this will only confuse people.

[Ron_Stard]

Here's a replay for Marooned, which I'm not sure is the intended solution. If it is, the building wasn't really fun (especially since I had to use the builders in a precise part to be able to go over the 10-ton-trap without getting crushed).

All the precision and limitations are totally intended: I think there must be a little challenge in hard-building levels, in order to make them not so trivial as usual. The solution is the one I was thinking of, but with my NeoLemmix editor, I just couldn't walk across the initial ropes, so that's why I included a basher (and by the way, having to waste it so soon prevent possible backroutes from the trapped lemmings -or at least, that's the way I thought while I was designing the level).

Anyway, I accept suggestions to modify and improve it. After all, I'm just a begginner

I haven't beaten Honi Soit yet. However, is there any reason that the thin terrain next to the two trapdoors is made of steel? I feel this will only confuse people.

Yes, there is a reason for it, and is to prevent an evident backroute that I totally forgot to fix. I admit that there are a lot of annoyances, apart from that one, but I think the intended solution is interesting.

Do you want me to send you a PM with the replay of my intended solution, and a slightly different version of the level? The replay works with both versions, but the second one definitely forces the player to segregate the routes of the herds. Perhaps when you see what I was trying to do, you could help me to improve it.

[Wafflem]

You can send me the slightly modified version of Honi Soit. I don't look at replays of the intended solution as I don't want to spoil myself with the solution yet. If I do get really stuck, I'll send you an attempt replay.

I think I know what to do about the thin terrain steel, but I'm not sure if it will work.

Even if you say that you're a beginner at designing levels, your levels so far are already pretty challenging! I think this all comes from playing others' levels and using this experience to make your own.

[Ron_Stard]

You can send me the slightly modified version of Honi Soit. I don't look at replays of the intended solution as I don't want to spoil myself with the solution yet. If I do get really stuck, I'll send you an attempt replay.

PM sent!

[Dullstar]

I'd like to request the removal of The Sweltering Warehouse and T=0K, as those will be used in my upcoming pack.

Also, just a thought, but I'm wondering if we can include some the levels from the canceled Epic Lemmings Fangame that Dullstar originally started?

The levels submitted for that fangame were:
Dullstar: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3
GigaLem: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3
Fernito: Pack (Clonic Inferno and Dilemma cannot be used as they are already part of Revenge of the Lemmings)

Any of my levels from that project are fine for it except "To The Death" just because I don't like that one.  If you're interested in using any of those levels, though, do let me know, because I think I can bring some minor improvements to some of them (e.g. removing unnecessary space in "Suicidal Lemming x2," removing all time limits, anti-frustration terrain modifications, removal of *blatant* backroutes (I tend not to mind if my levels have alternate solutions but there's one that's got an egregiously bad backroute in it).

[GigaLem]

I'd like to request the removal of The Sweltering Warehouse and T=0K, as those will be used in my upcoming pack.

Also, just a thought, but I'm wondering if we can include some the levels from the canceled Epic Lemmings Fangame that Dullstar originally started?

The levels submitted for that fangame were:
Dullstar: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3
GigaLem: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3
Fernito: Pack (Clonic Inferno and Dilemma cannot be used as they are already part of Revenge of the Lemmings)

Any of my levels from that project are fine for it except "To The Death" just because I don't like that one.  If you're interested in using any of those levels, though, do let me know, because I think I can bring some minor improvements to some of them (e.g. removing unnecessary space in "Suicidal Lemming x2," removing all time limits, anti-frustration terrain modifications, removal of *blatant* backroutes (I tend not to mind if my levels have alternate solutions but there's one that's got an egregiously bad backroute in it).

Gonna get this off my chest, I kinda cringe looking at my old levels and i mean very old ,so count my epic levels out

[namida]

I haven't actually played these levels, but they look very good visually at least. o_O

[Nepster]

I'd like to request the removal of The Sweltering Warehouse and T=0K, as those will be used in my upcoming pack.

Also, just a thought, but I'm wondering if we can include some the levels from the canceled Epic Lemmings Fangame that Dullstar originally started?

The levels submitted for that fangame were:
Dullstar: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3
GigaLem: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3
Fernito: Pack (Clonic Inferno and Dilemma cannot be used as they are already part of Revenge of the Lemmings)

Having recently played Dullstar's and Fernito's level packs to update them, here is (what I consider to be) a best-of list:

• Dullstar - epic01.dat - level 1 - Attack of the Killer Toddlers: If we don't yet have a similar level, then this one is an easy and fun version of the trick. The decoration on the sides should be made smaller though.
• Dullstar - epic01.dat - level 4 - The Ice Palace : Very nice, little and relatively easy level.
• Dullstar - epic01.dat - level 10 - The Lemmings Plead for Help: Nice level around the question "How do I distribute my skills?". Some walking distances could be shorter though.
• Dullstar - epic02.dat - level 9 - The Waffle Express: Very good looking and fun level with multiple (though similar) solutions.
• Dullstar - epic03.dat - level 4 - One-Way Rock: This has a shortcut by going directly through/over the block in the middle. Without this, this level had the potential to become a very good one.
• Dullstar - epic03.dat - level 5 - Save the top, free the bottom: Nice, easy level.
• Fernito - epic - level 3 - Lemmings cemetery: Very clever level. Good looking as well.
• Fernito - epic - level 10 - Wish it was 13...: Hard and interesting level. It admits multiple variations of the solution while keeping the main idea.

[Dullstar]

I'm not certain, and I'd have to test in regular Lemmix, but I think the backroute in One-Way Rock might be NeoLemmix-only because of the different OWW handling. Experimentally I gave the pieces above the rock the one-way tag as well, and now the backroute doesn't work/isn't as easy to pull off.  I'm going to update it, however, so this change won't be needed.

-------

EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE POST:

I've updated two of the levels Nepster mentioned. They are based off of Nepster's NeoLemmix conversions (hope you're okay with that) but have additional fixes.
In addition, I've provided an additional level from these NeoLemmix conversions, that I'm thinking of redesigning, so I'd like to see what people like/don't like about it.

A note about the backroute definition: Just because a solution isn't covered by the backroute definition doesn't guarantee that the solution isn't a backroute. It just sets an idea of what would definitely be considered a backroute, and how lenient the solution may be. Some levels are, of course, more open ended than others.

Changelog for "Save the top, free the bottom"

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Removed time limit
Added tops to the exits
Removed unused skills from skillset

Backroute Definition:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This level is open ended; any solution that works goes.

Changelog for "One-Way Rock"

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Can no longer bypass one way arrows.
Removed time limit
Redesigned much of the level around one of the possible solutions for the original.
Added one-way down arrows to the first obstacle to the right of the entrance to prevent backroutes.
Design no longer relies on the top edge of the map being solid.
Removed unused skills from skillset.
Facelift

Backroute Definition:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Any solution that does not use a climber on both sides of the entrance is a backroute (one to climb over the one-way down arrow obstacle, one to climb up the gap to the left of the entrance). (I don't believe you don't need to use both provided climbers, but it is faster)
Any solution that deviates SIGNIFICANTLY from the intended solution (see replay of intended solution) is a backroute.
Note that the floaters are there for safety, and are not actually required to solve the level.
There should be slightly more builders than are needed to solve the level to give the player a little breathing room, so don't worry if you have a few extra.

[Dullstar]

I found a minor issue with the updated version of "Save the top, free the bottom" so I have fixed it.  There is no functional difference between the two versions; this updated version has simply been given a ceiling so that if you choose to use the provided climbers, the behavior of the top of the screen won't matter.

[Wafflem]

Here are my replays to the two levels. Not sure if One-Way Rock is a backroute, but it looks like it follows most of your guidelines on how the solution should not be a backroute.

[Dullstar]

Here are my replays to the two levels. Not sure if One-Way Rock is a backroute, but it looks like it follows most of your guidelines on how the solution should not be a backroute.

TL;DR for the upcoming description of your solution for One Way Rock:
It is not a backroute.  I got carried away in my description of why it's an acceptable solution (complete with screenshots!), so if you want to read it, there's a nice long explanation about it.

Close enough on One Way Rock.  My intended solution digs slightly further down the one-way-down obstacle and uses the miner from the left side of it, but I typically don't mind minor variations on my intended solutions, and your solution definitely counts as a minor variation.  It doesn't look like it would be too difficult to modify the level to enforce what I'd intended over your solution if I really wanted to but I don't think there's any reason to do so, since they're so similar.

Screenshots:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

My solution is on the left, yours is on the right.  They are similar enough that I don't consider your solution to be a backroute.

You might notice that I used an extra basher.  When I choose my skillsets, I prefer to make things generous enough to avoid precise assignments when doing so won't create backroutes, so that basher is only there so you don't have to worry about the miner placement as much.

Your solution to the other level is pretty much identical to mine.

----

I don't believe I mentioned this in the post where I submitted the levels, but I'm not horribly attached the names of them.  If anyone has a better idea for the names, just run it by me. If I'm okay with the alternate suggestion, it's perfectly fine with me to rename them.

---

Should I avoid specifying music tracks?  I didn't really think about it when I originally submitted the levels, but since NeoLemmix has the ability to do so, I usually specify a track that I feel goes well with the level rather than using randomness or a set order.

For reference, One-Way Rock is set to orig_17 (Coming Around the Mountain).  The other level doesn't specify a track, probably because I made minimal changes to it, and therefore it required minimal testing.

[Wafflem]

Specifying music tracks is acceptable. Flopsy intentionally specified his music track for "Tell me the way to DMA" as the second music to Oh No More Lemmings, while Apjjm's "Thrown Out With the Bathwater" is specified as the sixth music to ONML.

Some people even like to put custom music; IchoTolot did this for many of his levels.

[Dullstar]

One thing I'm wondering about is training levels. Should we have some kind of training levels in this? Perhaps a dedicated rank for them, covering not just the new skills, but also the new types of objects?

Was scrolling through the posts in this thread, and am wonder if this was this ever decided?  If you want some training levels, I've got a pile of them lying around we could use.  I've made ones for all of the skills, plus a few relatively simple tricks that can be done with them.  There are also some for some of the new objects, although I did not finish them (the levels I have made with the new objects are finished, but I didn't get to all of the objects.  The radiation and slowfreeze objects have given me the most trouble; there's a level for slowfreeze, but I don't like it.

If anyone's interested in taking a look at these levels, I'll upload them.

[Wafflem]

Hmmm...we already have training levels in the NeoLemmix Introduction Pack. But I'm still interested to see the training levels, most especially the ones with the tricks.

If we want training levels to be part of the pack, I think they'd work in a "Training" rank.

[Nepster]

I found the interesting level "Panic Attack" by Sever in SeverSet4.dat and modified it slightly. The (intended) solution of the attached level works (up to minor modifications) already in the original level.

[Dullstar]

Level (not the tutorial ones I was talking about earlier though)!

I feel like this one's probably the hardest I've been able to come up with.  I can't decide if the skillset should contain an extra floater, but for the time being I've opted not to.

I wanted it to use builders instead of platformers, but the builders were causing a really egregious backroute that I couldn't figure out how to remove in a visually pleasing manner.  But I've uploaded both versions in case someone wants to see if they can edit the backroute out.

Dullstar-TestChamber.lvl is the version with the platformers - this does not have the backroute I found, but that doesn't mean there aren't others.
Dullstar-TestChamber-Experimental.lvl has builders instead of platformers, and an egregious backroute.  Like I said, I've uploaded in case someone wants to try their hand at removing it without making the level ugly or changing most of the builders to platformers.

I hope it's okay if it uses one of the auto-downloading tilesets.  One of the contest levels used this set and I liked how it looked.

[Nepster]

Not sure, what is intended... but almost certainly not this solution. (recorded with the experimental version)

[Dullstar]

I made the obstacle thicker. This should hopefully fix Nepster's backroute.

[Wafflem]

Here's my solution to the latest version (V3) of Test Chamber.

[Dullstar]

Well

I went ahead and added some steel pieces to the level.  Makes the layout a little busier, but it should seal off some stuff.


Also, here are those tutorial type levels I mentioned earlier.  I intend to redo some of them (I want to make a new swimmer level using the beach style, for one), and "Climber Shortage," one of the two cloner application levels, needs work - there's a level illustrating the same concept in the NeoLemmix introduction pack that works a lot better.  The radiation and slowfreeze objects have also given me a lot of trouble; Frostbite Mountain illustrates slowfreeze, but I can't say I'm a huge fan of the level.

My original goal with these levels was to create a pack at around the fun/tricky difficulty level to allow a little more experimentation with the new skills and objects than the NeoLemmix Introduction Pack does, with the new tutorial levels there mostly for completion's sake, but I have for the time being tabled the project.  Any of the tutorial levels that were going to be used with it can be used here; I don't mind, because if I ever decide to go back to the project I made these for, I can always make new ones.

Out of these levels I think the most notable one is "Stacker Ascent," as it shows off something I've seen done with stackers a few times but never thought of trying in levels that called for it until I'd seen it done once.  I think "Clone Your Workers" is the best level out of the pack, but there is a similar one in the NeoLemmix Introduction Pack.

The main difference between these levels and the NeoLemmix Introduction Pack is that I've tried to make these similar in feel to the original game's tutorial levels, where the puzzle elements in the level are generally the absolute minimum required to get the point across, whereas a few of the NeoLemmix Introduction Pack levels do take a small amount of thought - not much, mind you, but I like the idea of tutorial levels where you mostly use the skill and see what happens.

If you want to use these (in full or in part), be warned that I didn't finish making levels for objects.  I'll create levels for the remaining objects on request (except radiation).


I have some levels that use the lemmings 2 sets and would like to use the lemmings 2 music with them.  I know it's possible to do custom music, but since I figure I might not be the only one who wants to use the lemmings 2 music, what should we call the tracks?  I currently have them in my music folder under the name l2-[tribenamehere].mod, but I can easily change it since I've only briefly messed with them, so it wouldn't take long to update content to allow a change in the names.
(Or do we want to avoid custom music entirely with this set?)


EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE POST:
I've added one more level to the tutorial pack.  This one should have been there initially, but the level was deleted by mistake about a week or so ago, and so I had to remake it - although I did it in a different style and gave it a different name this time.  Since it's just one level, instead of updating the zip, I've just added it on as an extra attachment.

[mobius]

I'd I'd like to submit my older contest level "Copenhagen Interpretation" for inclusion here if that's allowed. Once the current contest is over [and I get all the problems ironed out] I'll submit that level as well.
[my solution attached as well]

[Wafflem]

Dullstar: Sure, I'd be happy to see the objects tutorial levels as well!

Yeah, the slowfreeze tutorial level doesn't look fun, but I really love the level design. I think you can also make a version of the level with that design that doesn't have the slowfreeze in it.

Blocker Rescue Operation is a very good level as well as I don't believe I've seen a tutorial level before that removes terrain to free blockers.

[Dullstar]

Updated version of Blocker Rescue Operation that lowers the amount of skills so you can't spam platformers to avoid using a blocker.

[Nepster]

Here are two more levels for the community level pack:

Holy Cow! The terrain layout was already used for a glitch-highlighting test level. But now that it has done its job, I felt that it should be used for some real level as well. The level is of easy-to-medium difficulty.

Underwater Operation: Originally a level by John Walker, that got completely broken by bigger trigger areas for water objects: Now the lemmings can no longer walk on the steel bottom of the lake. So I took the liberty to change it to a honest level with a completely new solution and skill set.

[Dullstar]

I made a relatively straightforward, simple level that's intended to be a simple intro to having to plan where certain skills need to go.

As to what I mean by this,

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If you do what seems the most obvious, you'll find yourself either short a digging tool, or you'll lose too many lemmings.

It uses my one of my updated Genesis sets, but since it doesn't use any of the features I added, it should be fully compatible with the old versions of the sets.


On another subject, does anyone have a replay of Test Chamber v4? I'd like to know if I've patched out all the backroutes, and also if anyone's managed to solve it properly...

Speaking of replays, I have some of the two levels Nepster updated.  I'm not certain, since I don't know what the intended solution is, but I highly suspect I backrouted Underwater Operation quite badly.

[Wafflem]

Here's a replay for Plan B. This one didn't use the builders, so it might be a backroute.

I haven't beaten Test Chamber yet; I feel this is the hardest level you've made so far.

[Nepster]

Here updated versions of "Holy Cow!" (fixes Simon's backroute; Dullstar's solution is fine) and "Underwater Operation" (fixes Dullstar's backroute).

[Dullstar]

Here's a replay for Plan B. This one didn't use the builders, so it might be a backroute.

The builders are supposed to be used, but you did correctly notice that

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

you have to go underneath the water rather than over it.

 
If you want to get a little closer to the intended solution before I figure out a decent-looking way to fix the level,

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

only use the miner to free the blocker; do not continue mining afterwards. I'm a little new to backroute testing so I still overlook stupid things.

[namida]

Well, we have 61 candidate levels now - and maybe a fair bit more if enough entries from the latest contest get donated to the pack! It's progressing slowly, but surely.

I'm wondering if - even though we probably won't reach it for a while - we should consider setting a goal for the number of submissions we try to get. This should be higher than the number of levels we actually intend to include, as we'll probably decide that some submissions aren't suitable (though on the other hand, it's very possible we'll want to add a few more easy levels to fill the gaps - this could be done with repeats if need be, but I would prefer unique levels; of course, it's easy enough for me to throw some together myself if the need arises).

[Nepster]

Do we need an official goal for the number of levels? Why not announce a date to migrate to the new NeoLemmix version and we try to compile a pack at that time using whatever levels we have. If it is still a rather small pack by that time, we can add further levels in subsequent versions, especially as adding new levels will be much easier with the new file system as it is in the current one (as far as I understand the plan).

[namida]

My reasoning was that, if we have a goal and we're getting close to it, it may lead to more motivation to push for that goal, especially if what we primarily need are more easy levels.

[Apjjm]

I would like to submit my contest level & its harder variant (Crosstalk Conundrum) to the pack - even if ultimately one (or neither) end up getting used.

Edit: Replays attached

[Wafflem]

Since this level is pretty much finished without any further comments, here is Spires of Mire, by Wafflem, Flopsy, Colorful Arty, Minim, IchoTolot and Nepster. This version is the latest version by Nepster, complete with the replay and the music chosen by Colorful Arty.

Also, looking through the Dropbox, Dullstar's tutorial levels aren't in there.

[Minim]

I'm wondering if - even though we probably won't reach it for a while - we should consider setting a goal for the number of submissions we try to get. This should be higher than the number of levels we actually intend to include, as we'll probably decide that some submissions aren't suitable (though on the other hand, it's very possible we'll want to add a few more easy levels to fill the gaps - this could be done with repeats if need be, but I would prefer unique levels; of course, it's easy enough for me to throw some together myself if the need arises).

Well, IMO, my first priority is to make sure all the different types objects and skills are available, like in the NeoLemmix Introduction Pack for example. So, I'm going to download all the levels and then create a large spreadsheet. If I discover any notable missing combinations then I probably won't hesitate to add a few more levels to this pack.

Edit: OK. I've compiled all the levels in a spreadsheet so here are some results I've found.

In terms of new NeoLemmix objects my spreadsheet shows so far that there are no levels that include One-Way Fields, Radiation, Splat and Anti-Splat pads or Single use traps. (Although the latter two are only available in the Wasteland graphic set, it would be nice if we could use them in other sets, or even better, if namida decides to release the honeycomb set early so that we can make use of that trap better) Also, I only see the Slowfreeze in one of Dullstar's tutorial levels and nowhere else. The Updraft and Splitter are also only seen once - in 'The Copenhagen Interpretation' and 'Lemming of the Century' respectively.

In terms of skills the disarmer skill is only used once - also in a tutorial level - and nowhere else. The Stoners and Stackers aren't too far ahead, although understandably, the mask images of both skills are quite similar.

Have to praise whoever re-edited 'Underwater Operation' to add swimmers to the skillset! Still, it would be nice if somebody can put these objects and the disarmer skill in at least one level before we compile the pack together. I'm going to try and re-release one of my contest levels with the radiation object, as long as its in a graphic set that has water.

[IchoTolot]

Update for "Apocalypse Maintenant", some fire pits were dislocated and the replay breaks in the exp version.

Also updates for the replays for those entries whose replays will fail in the new version.

Everything attached

+ notice to namida: As I last checked the last contest entries were not in the Dropbox      At least my stuff  (Clausthal + Overload) and Flopsy's level were missing as I recall.

[mobius]

I don't know if you guys decided to use my level "Copenhagen Interpretation" or not but if you do; I'm changing the title to "Push the button, Max"

I'm also going to redo "In the Pale Moonlight" in a new graphic set; probably Gronklings Slime set, and attempt to fix the backroutes; which will probably alter the layout significantly.

[Dullstar]

OK. I've compiled all the levels in a spreadsheet so here are some results I've found.

In terms of new NeoLemmix objects my spreadsheet shows so far that there are no levels that include One-Way Fields, Radiation, Splat and Anti-Splat pads or Single use traps. (Although the latter two are only available in the Wasteland graphic set, it would be nice if we could use them in other sets, or even better, if namida decides to release the honeycomb set early so that we can make use of that trap better) Also, I only see the Slowfreeze in one of Dullstar's tutorial levels and nowhere else. The Updraft and Splitter are also only seen once - in 'The Copenhagen Interpretation' and 'Lemming of the Century' respectively.

I'd just like to mention that I'm not surprised radiation and slowfreeze aren't used much. I had a lot of trouble coming up with a tutorial level for slowfreeze and I'm not completely satisfied with the result. I might try again at it later; and I still need to do radiation. I'd honestly forgotten about Splat/Anti-Splat pads and Single Use Traps since most of the tilesets I've used don't have them at all.
I'm surprised updrafts are only seen in one level though, but I'll fix that - I never specified whether or not Lem-17 Bomber from an earlier level design contest can be used for this, and that level uses updrafts, so that should solve that problem. I'll get on a tutorial level for them right now.

EDIT: Here's a picture of Lem-17 Bomber

In terms of skills the disarmer skill is only used once - also in a tutorial level - and nowhere else. The Stoners and Stackers aren't too far ahead, although understandably, the mask images of both skills are quite similar.

...

Still, it would be nice if somebody can put these objects and the disarmer skill in at least one level before we compile the pack together. I'm going to try and re-release one of my contest levels with the radiation object, as long as its in a graphic set that has water.

I'll see if I can do anything with the disarmer as well, but I'm not so sure about that.

By the way, earlier in this thread I released a level called Test Chamber. I never got any replays back for whatever the latest version of it was so I don't know if it has any backroutes (or if anyone's even found the intended solution!) or not.  It is attached, along with some other stuff, to this post.

EDIT: The version of Test Chamber in the dropbox doesn't seem to be labelled v4, but is in fact the correct version. Also, picture!



EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE POST:
Completed an Updraft Tutorial Level!

If you can't play it, you've got outdated versions of the Genesis tilesets. They should autodownload but I'm not sure what happens if you have already have an older, incompatible version of the set.  I needed it because those sets have updrafts in them; the normal versions of the sets, except fire, do not - and I didn't want to use the fire set for this level.

EDIT 2: It would help if I actually attached the level.  Added a picture of it while I'm at it.

[Minim]

EDIT 2: It would help if I actually attached the level.  Added a picture of it while I'm at it.

Hey, that pink updraft looks lovely! I'm gonna try and play it when I get the chance.

Anyway, I've come up with some ideas for levels to try and fill in those gaps. The first two levels are remakes of OhNo and modified so that traps are included and thus we can make use of disarmers.

The third one (and, the biggest level I've created so far) makes use of radiation and splat pads. The final one is my remake of the 'if you can't reach 'em' level with the sensible radiation object. It uses the psychedelic graphic set, the set that makes the best use of NeoLemmix features.

So, the only objects left for use in proper levels are one-way fields, slowfreeze and single use traps.

[namida]

If you can't play it, you've got outdated versions of the Genesis tilesets. They should autodownload but I'm not sure what happens if you have already have an older, incompatible version of the set.  I needed it because those sets have updrafts in them; the normal versions of the sets, except fire, do not - and I didn't want to use the fire set for this level.

If you already have a copy, it won't redownload. Just delete the copy you have (in NeoLemmix's "styles" folder), which will force it to re-download and get the up-to-date one.

With that being said, have you tried the experimental player / editor versions? These now allow mixing graphic sets together in a single level, and it shouldn't be too much longer before they become the main (stable) release. Cases like this - needing an object that doesn't usually exist in the graphic set you're primarily using - is the main reason such a feature was implemented.

[IchoTolot]

As I see that in the dropbox the contributed levels from the last contest are still not included I post mine here again.

I recall some more people offering them for the community pack as well, so it might be a good idea to include them at the same time.

[namida]

All of these ones have been added.

To those who have offered levels but don't see them in the Dropbox - can you let me know which ones, and either link to or reupload them?

(Please keep in mind that I don't automatically put all NL contest submissions into this pack, since a lot of them are ones that people plan to use in their own packs.)

[Dullstar]

If you can't play it, you've got outdated versions of the Genesis tilesets. They should autodownload but I'm not sure what happens if you have already have an older, incompatible version of the set.  I needed it because those sets have updrafts in them; the normal versions of the sets, except fire, do not - and I didn't want to use the fire set for this level.

If you already have a copy, it won't redownload. Just delete the copy you have (in NeoLemmix's "styles" folder), which will force it to re-download and get the up-to-date one.

With that being said, have you tried the experimental player / editor versions? These now allow mixing graphic sets together in a single level, and it shouldn't be too much longer before they become the main (stable) release. Cases like this - needing an object that doesn't usually exist in the graphic set you're primarily using - is the main reason such a feature was implemented.

I thought about trying the experimental but decided against it; besides, I've taken care to recolor those updrafts so they have the same color palettes as the tilesets . I made recolors for the normal sets as well, but in order to use them with the experimental I'd need to create and release a tileset with them.


That said, I should probably at least download the experimental and make sure my levels still work on it - though I don't think any of the solutions are precise enough to be affected by any of the changes.

[Dullstar]

Made another tutorial level; this one for the splitter.

I think I can do better, though, so I might try again later - after all, a larger crowd of lemmings than this level has would probably demonstrate the object better, but I came up with a little "story" of sorts to go with the level.

It happens to fit Rule 1 for the contest, but I'm not submitting it even though I still could if I want to, since it's a tutorial level and therefore probably won't stand a chance against other more serious contenders, even if it does have a little story to go with it.

You can feel free to try to interpret it yourself, or you can read the spoiler here:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A lemming couple is experiencing a rough patch in their relationship and end up breaking up, because one of the lemmings is a terrible person lemming. That jerkface of a lemming carries on with his/her life, while our hero is left devastated and considers jumping into the nearby polluted river to end his/her life. At the last minute, he/she changes his/her mind (represented by a swimmer pickup skill) and climbs out of the river and goes on to have a better life without that jerk (represented by a fancier exit).

I have no idea how or why I came up with this, but don't worry - this is not based off of any real life experiences of mine, though with the very large number of people in the world I'm sure at least one has gone through something similar to what is depicted here.

Potential modifications:
 - Might add 1 additional of each skill to make it a bit harder to screw up, since it is a tutorial level after all.
 - Alternatively: might scrap it and make something better demonstrating the behavior of a splitter in a large crowd of lemmings. This level was very much "first thing I came up with."
 - In addition, I might try to draw splitters for another tileset so I don't have to use bricks  (but can still use an original game tileset). But even ignoring my bias towards official-game tilesets, I don't know any others off the top of my head that have the object. That would have to be done for the experimental version though since that won't work in the stable version.

[namida]

- In addition, I might try to draw splitters for another tileset so I don't have to use bricks  (but can still use an original game tileset). But even ignoring my bias towards official-game tilesets, I don't know any others off the top of my head that have the object. That would have to be done for the experimental version though since that won't work in the stable version.

Off the top of my head, splitters also exist in Psychedelic, Metal, Horror and Clockwork. The last two would look very out-of-place mixed with default graphic sets (as Horror and Clockwork are both full-color graphic sets, rather than using a very limited palette like the official / LPII / LPIII sets), but the first two should work alright.

[namida]

Since secret levels are no longer a thing in NeoLemmix, I've removed the secret levels from NeoLemmix Introduction Pack. Since (aside from the no-longer-usable gimmick one) these are actually fairly decent levels, I've submitted them for this pack.

[mobius]

Here's a remake of my contest level "In the Pale Moonlight" with a possible backroute fix. I'm not at all confident that this removes the backroutes, but it's a start.

Note: This only works with the experimental version of editor and player.

[IchoTolot]

Removed the background objects from 2 of my levels.

Only works with the newest tileset update!

[Dullstar]

I've just verified that Test Chamber works in 1.47.
Since apparently no one's solved it yet, I'm going to release a few hints as well. Nested spoilers elaborate further on the initial hint; separate spoilers are separate hints.

Hint about blocker placement:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

When exactly three lemmings are on the left side of the trapdoor, make the next lemming to land (from the trapdoor) a blocker.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The blocker must be facing right. If it is facing left you will have problems later.

Hint about number of skills needed to solve:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

All but one skill is used in the intended solution. The remaining skill is helpful but not required.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The optional skill is a climber. Without it, a much greater amount of precision is required.

Also: if you can get close to the save requirement, send the replay anyway. I've thought of a possible skillset modification that might make the level slightly easier to execute without damaging the core puzzle but I don't know if I should actually do it or not.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The modification would be changing the number of floaters from 1 to 2. By doing this,

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

it wouldn't matter what direction the blockers are facing.

[Wafflem]

Looks like I've finally beaten Test Chamber! (I didn't open the spoilers when trying to solve it). If this is intended, that's a VERY clever and well-hidden solution that should go as the first level of the hardest rank!

[Dullstar]

Looks like I've finally beaten Test Chamber! (I didn't open the spoilers when trying to solve it). If this is intended, that's a VERY clever and well-hidden solution that should go as the first level of the hardest rank!

Yep, that's it! I first created the level to test something unrelated, and modified its solution to be less obvious. Apparently I did a good job covering it up.
I actually had a solution in mind when I created the level, so that's probably why I was able to do that so well. Most of the time I figure everything out as I go along.

[IchoTolot]

With the last update I noticed "Welcome to the Spiderdance broke". Altered the level and reattached it. Replay is still fine!

Also I would like to offer my assitance in taking care of the Dropbox folder. So not everything has to flow through namida's hands and would ease a little bit of work, as there is another (or maybe even some) person(s) who can take care of this.

[namida]

Also I would like to offer my assitance in taking care of the Dropbox folder. So not everything has to flow through namida's hands and would ease a little bit of work, as there is another (or maybe even some) person(s) who can take care of this.

I have no objection to this, but am not entirely sure how to set up such a thing.

EDIT: It would seem I just need your Dropbox username, or maybe email address? PM me (or come on #neolemmix) and we'll try to sort this out.

[IchoTolot]

This should work nicely as I had to do this a few times for university stuff. PMed you.

[Dullstar]

Kinda felt like messing with the editor today but didn't feel like making anything new, so I went and looked for something to modify/finish up/touch up etc.

In the process of looking for something to mess with I found this level I modified from the disarmer tutorial. It doesn't appear I ever submitted it: "Skeleton's Cave."
I also noticed that some levels I've submitted are missing from the Dropbox, so I've resubmitted them.

I also finally got around to touching up that old Attack of the Killer Toddlers level...  or, more accurately, completely redoing it. It's not quite done though, as I'm not quite satisfied with the result yet. So far, solution-wise I've replaced the entrance's fatal fall w/ 2 floaters setup with a drop into water w/ 2 swimmers. Might replace some of the builders with platformers as well.

[IchoTolot]

Kinda felt like messing with the editor today but didn't feel like making anything new, so I went and looked for something to modify/finish up/touch up etc.

In the process of looking for something to mess with I found this level I modified from the disarmer tutorial. It doesn't appear I ever submitted it: "Skeleton's Cave."
I also noticed that some levels I've submitted are missing from the Dropbox, so I've resubmitted them.

I also finally got around to touching up that old Attack of the Killer Toddlers level...  or, more accurately, completely redoing it. It's not quite done though, as I'm not quite satisfied with the result yet. So far, solution-wise I've replaced the entrance's fatal fall w/ 2 floaters setup with a drop into water w/ 2 swimmers. Might replace some of the builders with platformers as well.

Uploaded your 4 levels into the folder

[GigaLem]

my levels from the Autumn LD contest, since the contest is over

[namida]

A couple of large(ish), mostly-classic-style levels I made recently. I had thought about making a moderate-sized pack of such levels, but don't really find myself having enough ideas, so I'll just submit them here instead.

I've done a fair bit of de-backrouting, but given that these levels' solutions are fairly complicated, I wouldn't be surprised if there are more backroutes still in them (especially Tag Team).

[namida]

I also notice that we've got nearly 100 levels now. While we may not want to use all of them (so it's useful to have a few extras), maybe it's time to start thinking about ordering etc?

[Ron_Stard]

I also notice that we've got nearly 100 levels now. While we may not want to use all of them (so it's useful to have a few extras), maybe it's time to start thinking about ordering etc?

As far as I'm concerned: I don't know if my -only two- levels will finally pass the final cut, but I must re-work them before.

[Nepster]

Some time ago I made the attached Any-Way-You-Want level, because I wanted to try out Gronkling's Beast style. I always planned to contribute it to the community level pack, but completely forgot about it.

[namida]

Here's a few levels I salvaged, touched up, NeoLemmix-ized and in some cases made significant changes to, originating from that Win95 Lemmings pack I made a long time ago.

I'm currently doing the same for discarded levels from the Lemmings Plus series, which could also be used for this pack. (Some of these cases include levels that were removed due to having gimmicks, and I've now made regular levels out of the maps.)

[namida]

As promised, here's some salvaged levels formerly from the Lemmings Plus series (as well as a couple such levels from the NeoLemmix Introduction Pack and one from Doomsday Lemmings II).

[namida]

Also, I made an actual puzzle out of Lemming Rotation Club, rather than just having it as a "use this if you want to make something from it" or X-of-everything level.

[namida]

One more level I missed. Originally from Lemmings Plus III Bonus Pack (thus, I had it under "Lemmings Plus Repeats" and overlooked it in the previous submissions); it was a repeat of a now-removed level. Since neither version is in any Lemmings Plus pack anymore, it's available for NLC.

EDIT: This submission has been retracted, as it ended up replacing a broken-by-new-formats level in Lemmings Plus Omega.

[GigaLem]

Three more levels from me
one is a vgaspec level
everything is in the Attachment below

[namida]

Ouch, got the "this topic has not been posted in for 365 days" note on this topic. IchoTolot - what's the plan with this pack?

If it's still going ahead, all good. If not, I might re-use some of my submissions as LPVI levels (remade in the new graphic sets, of course) - some are too hard, but there's a few that might be good candidates.

At any rate, I've made new-formats conversions (with up-to-date replays) of all my submitted levels, including the two that were submitted via level design contests. Note that while I did fix up anything that breaks the level (such as levels breaking due to the now-deadly top edge), I did not extensively test for any new backroutes that may have arisen (and many of these levels didn't get very much backroute checking in the first place).

ZIP includes all the musics (yep, all one of them) that are unique to my levels, rather than just "not standard but taken from another pack".

I also have a few more potential candidates (normal levels I made out of old gimmick levels, or still-functional levels from retracted packs (LP2Bonus, LP3Bonus, Doomsday2)), but I'd rather hold onto them so I can quickly swap them in if future NL updates break any more levels beyond (reasonable) repair. But if NLC ends up needing one or two extra levels, let me know and I'll see what of those might be suitable.

[IchoTolot]

Ouch, got the "this topic has not been posted in for 365 days" note on this topic. IchoTolot - what's the plan with this pack?

Well, I still got all the level files and will continue managing them.

Currently though I am focusing on bringing out United and managing the contests. So I will keep this in a managing and gathering state for now.

When United is finally out, I will get this going actively again - I don't half ass 2 things, I 1 ass 1 thing.

I will go through all collected levels and send them to the authors to convert them and let them send me solving replays for all. Then I will pre-judge the difficulty of the levels to get a rough feeling for what we have.

Then more goal-directed gathering will continue and we can discuss details like ranks size, actual difficulty of the levels  etc.

[Strato Incendus]

I don't half ass 2 things, I 1 ass 1 thing.

Psychologist approves!

Multitasking - the art of messing up several things at once .

[namida]

I made this level to demonstrate a trick, but it might be a worthwhile addition in its own right.