Poll

Should NeoLemmix's hi-res mode have independent tiles for official styles?

Yes, create new ones entirely from scratch
3 (30%)
Yes, double the size of the low-res ones so that they appear identical to their low-res counterparts (as opposed to upscaled, as they are currently)
1 (10%)
Yes, use the WinLemm ones (Fire exit would be corrected in this instance)
1 (10%)
Yes, but none of the above (please state new suggestion in comments if you choose this option)
2 (20%)
I don't mind either way
0 (0%)
No, let NL continue to upscale the low-res ones (status quo)
3 (30%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Author Topic: [NeoLemmix][DISC] Iindependent tiles in hi-res mode for official styles  (Read 12063 times)

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Offline Will

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I'm hoping to get some feedback on NeoLemmix's high-resolution (hr) graphics feature, which has now been available since V12.8.

Please indicate whether or not you use this feature by responding to the above poll, and it would be great if you could expand on this by providing some reasons, thoughts and opinions regarding your choice.

If you do use high-res, please explain what you like about it, to perhaps encourage other users to try it out if they haven't already done so.

If you don't use high-res, please be as specific as you can as to the reasons for this choice.

Thanks! :lemcat:
« Last Edit: February 25, 2022, 04:05:29 PM by WillLem »

Offline namida

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2020, 09:09:29 PM »
Generally, no. Even with the focus put on retaining accuracy between visuals / physics, it's always a tad harder to judge distances simply because each physics-pixel is represented by multiple visual pixels, so it can be hard to judge exactly which group of four visual pixels corresponds to which physics pixel.

The only time I tend to use high-res mode is when testing code that does / could affect high-res mode, personally.

I should clarify that I do like high-res from an aesthetic point of view, but being able to judge physics more accurately in low-res outweighs this for me. I'd perhaps be likely to change if a hotkey to switch while in-game existed, but this is not feasible to implement without basically having full GPU rendering (too much of a performance hit, as to achieve this it would essentially need to render both resolutions most of the time).

EDIT: Another consideration for me is that I very much like to have the high-quality minimap on, and this is a performance hit even in low-res; even more so in high-res.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 10:11:10 PM by namida »
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Offline Will

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2020, 09:11:23 PM »
I use it because I prefer a more lush, detailed, textured appearance to the game.

NeoLemmix's high-resolution mode allows lemmings, objects, terrain, skill panels and even the cursor to appear "fuller" and more detailed. Making things appear 3D, for example, is easier when working on higher resolution graphics - you literally have twice the number of pixels to work with.

Furthermore, namida's custom-designed upscaler provides low-res versions of graphics with a more lush, textured appearance, so even those styles that don't provide high-res graphics still look great.

Finally, I spent many hours editing, designing and modifying the high-resolution default (and xmas) lemmings sprites, so I do of course wish to enjoy the fruits of my work - and for others to do so as well! :lemcat:

Offline Will

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2020, 09:16:11 PM »
it can be hard to judge exactly which group of four visual pixels corresponds to which physics pixel.

Can you give an example of this happening, in particular where it could be an issue?

I personally have never noticed it, and that's in many months of playing challenges which require pixel-perfect precision (such as bash-cancelling, perfect bomber placement, etc). It's possible that there could be something happening here that I don't realise is happening, but it's never really been an issue either way.

Offline GigaLem

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2020, 09:19:36 PM »
Personally while the idea is nice, I don't really have a reason to. I guess if you liked the graphics used for Lemmini but you don't like using lemmini there's that but asside from that I'm perfectly fine with the original rez. That and I have no way of High rezing the Millas sets

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2020, 09:26:43 PM »
No, I just prefer how the lo-res style looks, even if I spent ages playing lemmini and grew up playing the mac version of lemmings which is also high res.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2020, 09:27:28 PM »
I don't like the way the default graphics sets look when upscaled. What I would really like to do at some point is help with importing the Mac graphics so they can be used as hi-res graphics for the default sets -- I think someone started on this, but they would have to be edited to make sure they comply with the physics inherited from the low-res graphics, so that would be a lot of work. I'd be happy to help out, but at the moment I have too many projects on the go and not enough time, so that one will have to wait.

Offline Will

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2020, 09:38:52 PM »
I guess if you liked the graphics used for Lemmini but you don't like using lemmini there's that

Whilst the high-res sprites I designed are based on the Lemmini (and thus WinLemm) ones, some of them are completely original and unique to NeoLemmix, in particular the new skills ones, and all of the xmas ones.

Also, NeoLemmix now allows users to create fully high-res styles, and mix them with other styles as well. Not to mention the ease with which this can be done. There's so much more to it than it just being a "(Super)Lemmini alternative" - and that's coming from someone who still uses SuperLemmini!

That and I have no way of High rezing the Millas sets

If you have a PNG editor, you can 200% resize them using Nearest Neighbour - that will give you a graphic double the size of the original, but identical in appearance. From there, you can edit the graphic to give it a bit more shape and detail, if desired. It's much easier than creating the graphics from scratch, anyways.

Here's a high-res millas ascender I made earlier 8-)



No, I just prefer how the lo-res style looks

Fair enough :lemcat:

I don't like the way the default graphics sets look when upscaled. What I would really like to do at some point is help with importing the Mac graphics so they can be used as hi-res graphics for the default sets

I actually don't mind the upscaling, but I agree it would be nice to have a full set of hr graphics for the defaults. How might one go about obtaining the Mac ones?

And, how do they differ from the hr WinLemm ones?

« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 09:47:49 PM by WillLem »

Offline Will

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2020, 11:01:14 PM »
EDIT: Another consideration for me is that I very much like to have the high-quality minimap on, and this is a performance hit even in low-res; even more so in high-res.

This surprises me: I would expect your setup to be way more advanced than mine, but my laptop* has no problem with the hr + HQ minimap combo.

*Dell Inspiron 5593, 10th Gen i5, Intel UHD

Offline namida

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2020, 11:19:26 PM »
EDIT: Another consideration for me is that I very much like to have the high-quality minimap on, and this is a performance hit even in low-res; even more so in high-res.

This surprises me: I would expect your setup to be way more advanced than mine, but my laptop* has no problem with the hr + HQ minimap combo.

*Dell Inspiron 5593, 10th Gen i5, Intel UHD

Not at all. Your CPU (or at least, the specific model I'm guessing you'll have) is better than mine for any task that isn't designed to use 8 (or more) cores: https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i7-6700HQ-vs-Intel-Core-i5-1035G1/m34954vsm895407

NeoLemmix is basically a single-core deal. A second thread (which would generally run on a different core, I believe) is used for audio and for downloading files, but those barely register performance-wise so single-core performance is what really matters.

On top of that, my laptop has older DDR3 RAM, which is slower than the DDR4 that yours almost certianly has.

I'm quite overdue for an upgrade, to be fair. (Dell Inspiron 7559, 6th gen i7; GPU doesn't matter for NL).
« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 11:24:52 PM by namida »
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Offline Pooty

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2020, 12:35:15 AM »
I don't currently use high-resolution mode, for two reasons.
  • As it stands, I think the game looks better in low-resolution mode (except for the lemmings themselves; I think the high-resolution lemmings look great).
  • I have an easier time reading the user interface in low-resolution mode.
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Offline Will

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2020, 01:27:12 AM »
I think the high-resolution lemmings look great

Good to know, thanks! Maybe when we have hr versions of the default sets, more people will give it a try. It seems that the upscaler is an acquired taste. I personally really like it, but I can understand why others would prefer the more "pixellated" look.

I have an easier time reading the user interface in low-resolution mode.

Not sure what you mean here... the menus look identical in both resolutions. Do you mean the skill panel? And, if so, is it because the skill panel appears smaller in high res?

Offline Pooty

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2020, 01:54:48 AM »
Not sure what you mean here... the menus look identical in both resolutions. Do you mean the skill panel? And, if so, is it because the skill panel appears smaller in high res?

Yeah, I'm referring to the skill panel, and also the text that appears when you hover your mouse over objects in Clear Physics Mode. The size seems fine to me. I think it's because it looks a bit smudgy in high-resolution mode, and some of the black outlines seem a touch too thick here and there as well.
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Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
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Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline Will

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2020, 02:45:49 AM »
OK... there's definitely something going on here. I've been exclusively using high res since 12.8 was released, and I never noticed this before, but there is a discernable, noticeable difference in how the levels and skill panel are displayed in each resolution.

After Pooty's comments, I decided to try and get to the bottom of this once and for all. I did a fresh install of NL and changed no settings other than the resolution. What you see here is full-screen screenshots.

Here's what to look out for:

1. The skill panel fills the screen in low resolution, and shrinks to almost half the size in high resolution. This has already been noted in recent topics, but it's worth paying attention to.

2. The actual level itself actually appears slightly bigger in high resolution: note that the edges of the level are different, even though the zoom is identical. You can also see from the minimap that less of the level is being displayed, and yet the level is not vertically scrolling.

3. The CPM text (and indeed the skill panel) appear to be using upscaled graphics in hr. Whilst the upscaler looks great for terrain and objects, I wouldn't suggest using it for the helper or panel graphics. I am more than happy to produce hr graphics for these items, so that they are easier to read and look better (I never noticed this before since I use my own custom-designed panel).

4. As already noted, I like the results of the upscaler in high-res. However, I can see why some people would prefer the low-res terrain and objects, because they have been designed for that resolution, after all. I think Proxima's suggestion of using high-resolution graphics for the default styles needs to happen soonish.

Here are the screenshots. Note that they have been resized by 50% for ease of comparison in this post, so I have also attached the originals for more detailed comparison if needs be:


Low resolution, full screen, 1x zoom (automatically increased to 2x)


High resolution, full screen, 1x zoom (automatically increased to 2x)


Low resolution, full screen, 1x zoom (automatically increased to 2x), CPM enabled


High resolution, full screen, 1x zoom (automatically increased to 2x), CPM enabled

« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 02:54:23 AM by WillLem »

Offline namida

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2020, 02:55:41 AM »
There is more vertical space available when the skill panel is smaller. This is relevant both in terms of "how much of the level is displayed without vertical scrolling at a certain zoom", and with certain settings combinations, what the initial level zoom will be.

And again - how much of the screen / window the high-res panel fills depends on a lot of factors and there is no single universal answer to what it will do.
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Offline Will

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2020, 03:39:34 AM »
There is more vertical space available when the skill panel is smaller. This is relevant both in terms of "how much of the level is displayed without vertical scrolling at a certain zoom", and with certain settings combinations, what the initial level zoom will be.

I see, so... because the skill panel takes up less vertical real estate, the level no longer needs to be letterboxed, so fills the screen?

EDIT: Thinking about it, would the recently-implemented variable-res skill panel affect this? i.e. if in high-res with a low-res panel, would the level appear the same size as in low-res due to the vertically increased panel?

And again - how much of the screen / window the high-res panel fills depends on a lot of factors

Out of interest, to what extent will 12.11's DPI-aware feature help with this this? For example, I keep my screen at 1080p / 150%, and tend to use OS scaling on NeoLemmix because it makes the menu a lot easier to read (and I tend to use Windowed mode anyway so don't actually mind the smaller skill panel - a lot of my asking about this has been due to others' comments regarding it being a reason not to use hr).

*Incidentally, I do switch on Application upscaling when I'm recording in Windowed mode on OBS, however, because otherwise I get a ton of black space at the edge of the recording window (that's even if I choose "Resize Output - Source Size), I contacted OBS about it and it is to do with the OS scaling, apparently.

There seems to be no perfect combination of factors, as you've already pointed out! ;P
« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 03:59:18 AM by WillLem »

Offline namida

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2020, 06:35:52 AM »
Quote
Out of interest, to what extent will 12.11's DPI-aware feature help with this this? For example, I keep my screen at 1080p / 150%, and tend to use OS scaling on NeoLemmix because it makes the menu a lot easier to read (and I tend to use Windowed mode anyway so don't actually mind the smaller skill panel - a lot of my asking about this has been due to others' comments regarding it being a reason not to use hr).

Basically, as far as NeoLemmix is concerned (except in the Windows-style dialogs, like the Level Select), NeoLemmix would act as if your OS's scaling is 100% regardless of what it actually is. In particular, this would mean a 1920x1080 screen (or window) could zoom a hi-res skill panel to 2x, regardless of OS scaling.
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Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2020, 12:58:17 PM »
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. For example, I'm currently playing Lemminas, and I know it's been made to be enjoyed in HiRes. So that's how I started it. However, the game generally seems more fluent with LoRes (and that's despite me having a new gaming laptop from this year with 16 GB RAM; you know it's a gaming laptop (Lenovo Legion 7) if the keyboard is constantly flashing in all kinds of colours 8-) ).

In general, I prefer NeoLemmix to look like the original game, which did not only feature those low-resolution graphics
, but IIRC was actually inspired by precisely that? Maybe this is just an anecdote, but as far as I know, the origin story of Lemmings went something like this:


As a kid, though, I used to play Lemmings mainly on Mac.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

When HiRes mode was introduced, I understood it as trying to emulate playing Lemmings on Mac. However, in order to do this convincingly, I would need a couple other things as well:
- the Fire exit without horns (looked more like a rodent's face than a devil's face; my father always preferred the former, but he's an avid Mac user anyway)
- the background of the level menu would have to be green instead of brown-red (both my father and my younger self always thought this was supposed to be a crowd of lemmings from the top, so that you would only see their hair; consequently, the brown-red background didn't make any sense to us, and we considered it "ugly". Now I'm of course much more used to the red-brown one due to NeoLemmix)

Apart from that, though, the graphics almost look a bit too polished even for Mac. The lemmings almost have a 3D-character to them.

Which, in turn, will make HiRes mode perfect for my L3D-inspired pack "Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll"!
:thumbsup: As well as, if I or somebody else were to ever create one, a pack trying to emulate Lemmings Revolution. Because Revolution is a game with classic 2D-Lemmings physics, but 3D graphics.

But we'll have to wait for the introduction of Portals for such a pack to even be come possible (as Portals can also simulate wrap, and are part of the standard Lemmings Revolution objects anyway).
« Last Edit: December 23, 2021, 07:45:55 PM by Strato Incendus »
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Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2020, 04:03:50 AM »
Multiple reasons for no:

1) I'm used to the low res graphics.

2) The high res graphics are mostly the low-res grpahics auto-upscaled, and while some look fine, many of them don't. For example, marble looks okay, but dirt looks bad.

3) The physics are low res anyway, so the physics won't necessarily match the visuals in high-res.

Offline Will

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2020, 04:51:25 AM »
I think it's pretty clear where people stand on this. I'm amazed the option ever got implemented.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2020, 12:01:05 PM »
I think it's pretty clear where people stand on this. I'm amazed the option ever got implemented.

I think you are addressing the wrong demographic with your poll.

Most people actively posting/discussing here do not really care about resolution/graphics and prefer to clearly see every pixel. High res is more like "nice to have, but I don't really care" to them.

Under newer users who don't actively post here and especially those peeking over from Lemmini, I see this option being used more. Also those, who tend to stick to more casual/ewasy levels. Users who actually care a bit more a bit about graphics in Lemmings (even if they are quite rare) are also addressed.

Why did this got implemented?

You provided many of the nessesary graphics yourself, the option does not interrupt the status-quo and there was definitly potential for it being used by incoming "Lemmini crowds".

It's nice to have even if it's not essential to the harcore core crowd. And again, you provided a good part of the work here! ;)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 06:39:43 PM by IchoTolot »

Offline namida

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2020, 05:42:54 PM »
Quote
Why did this got implemented?

You provided many of the nessesary graphics yourself, the option does not interrupt the status-quo and there was definitly potential for it being used by incoming "Lemmini crowds".

I would add to this that in least at my case, it is not a matter of "I dislike HR". It's a matter of "both have their strengths, but LR's benefits outweight HR's for me". Indeed, if on-the-spot switching was possible and I had a newer PC that could manage HR + high-quality minimap on large levels, I'd probably play in HR most of the time.
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Offline Will

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2020, 12:06:41 AM »
It's nice to have even if it's not essential to the harcore core crowd. And again, you provided a good part of the work here! ;)

Thanks for your comments, Icho. Your post cheered me up :lemcat:

on-the-spot switching

CPM? I realise it's not meant to be used too much, but if it was only used for the things you couldn't reasonably eyeball in HR, then... why not? That's pretty much exactly how I use it, to be fair (that and identifying steel and objects in custom styles, which takes seconds).
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 12:42:51 AM by WillLem »

Offline Silken Healer

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2021, 09:01:27 PM »
I just hate the way it looks, I also hate when something is up scaled and all the edges are all round, bouncy and curvy :sick: . Also it is easier to tell exact measurements and exactly what is going on. Also that's how it looked when I played Lemmings before NeoLemmix.

Offline Will

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2021, 09:30:53 PM »
I just hate the way it looks

Hate the way what looks?

I also hate when something is up scaled and all the edges are all round, bouncy and curvy :sick:

I am particularly fond of NL's upscaler, I like that it looks quite soft and plasticiney. I've also used it outside of NL for other projects (thanks to namida's standalone version of the upscaler). I even decided against creating standalone hi-res images for my styles because I like the results of the upscaling.

Also it is easier to tell exact measurements and exactly what is going on.

Do you mean with hi-res or low-res? If low-res, you can still tell exact measurements in hi-res by using CPM, if a level calls for such precision.

Also that's how it looked when I played Lemmings before NeoLemmix.

I love the Amiga version, which has the same "low-res" appearance as DOS and low-res NL, but I much prefer the "chunkier" appearance of the lemmings in the Windows 95 version. NL's hi-res mode allows players to get that look, if they prefer. I've never been aware of any massive trade-off in physics or anything like that, and if I want nostalgia I can fire up my Amiga emulator.

If anybody thinks that the hi-res mode could be improved in any way, to encourage people to use it, I'd be happy to hear some suggestions. There has often been talk of creating hi-res versions of the official styles, to replace the upscaling. Thoughts?

Offline Silken Healer

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2021, 11:24:20 PM »
1. Yes
2. I don't
3. Low-res
4. I didn't play Windows 95 lemmings


Offline NM7 (or just Nico)

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2022, 03:46:53 AM »
i didnt like hi-resolution sprites, the lemmings has odd sprites for me, because of the shades, and the tiles like dirt for the first level looks awful honestly, i prefer to play this with original amiga/ms-dos sprites :-\
just wanna be friendly, i just dont know english, i wanna do my best, i can improve later though(el espaƱol es una buena lengua) im a intermediate player of lemmings too, i still don't finished original lemmings, but going well actualy

Offline Will

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2022, 01:56:25 PM »
i didnt like hi-resolution sprites, the lemmings has odd sprites for me, because of the shades

The sprites are supposed to be shaded, so I guess this is just a matter of personal preference.

the tiles like dirt for the first level looks awful honestly

I quite like the upscaler tbh, I like that it makes everything look soft and plasticiney. However, I've noted that a lot of people tend to comment negatively on the upscaled tiles.

One way around this would be to resize every piece by x2 so that, even in hi-res, the tiles appear exactly as they would in low-res. I might give this a try and see what people think. Recreating the tiles as hi-res tiles would take a lot more work, and borrowing the ones from WinLemm probably wouldn't be a much more popular solution than the upscaled ones.

A poll might help with this.

Offline Will

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2022, 02:10:50 PM »
I've added a new poll regarding the hi-res official styles. It's clear that some discussion around this is needed to help decide what to do, if anything, about the styles. I've allowed 2 votes per person so that people can show support for multiple options if necessary.

Personally, I'd be happy to keep the upscaled low-res graphics, but if another option seems more popular then I'd be happy to help bring it into action.

Some quick Pros & Cons discussion for each option:

Create new tiles from scratch - An obvious con is that this could take a long time and be a lot of work, but the pro would be that NeoLemmix would have it's own versions of the official tiles (at least in hi-res), and they could be made to look however we like. Having said that, if I ended up being the person to work on this I would definitely be using the existing tiles as a guide, mainly just adding extra detail here and there.

Double-size the low-res tiles - A pro for this option is that it's easy and could be done in minutes. Everything would look identical to low-res but with hi-res lemming sprites, which could be seen as either a positive or a negative.

Use the WinLemm tiles - The main pro here is that all the tiles are ready to go, no work is needed other than to copy them into NeoLemmix's styles directory. A con is that the WinLemm tiles are very distinctive; opinion is divided as to how good they look, and NeoLemmix would end up looking like WinLemm/Lemmini; at least with the upscaler, NeoLemmix has its own unique look when in hi-res mode.

Keep the upscaled ones - This is of course the path of least resistance, no work required at all. NeoLemmix has its own distinctive look, and some people (myself included) think that the upscaled tiles look more than good enough. The only con here is that those who have already opted away from hi-res mode because of the upscaled tiles will have no reason to give hi-res mode another try.



Here are the results of the previous poll:

Do you use hi-res mode in NeoLemmix?

Yes (no reason) - 9.5% (2 votes)
Yes (reason given in comments) - 4.8% (1 vote)
No (no reason) - 42.9% (9 votes)
No (reason given in comments) - 42.9% (9 votes)
I didn't know NeoLemmix had a hi-res mode - 0% (0 votes)

Due to the results of this poll, I'm happy to look at adding independent hi-res tiles for the official styles in order to help improve the hi-res mode iff that's what most people would want to see.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 02:35:19 PM by WillLem »

Offline Proxima

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I am not familiar with the WinLemm tiles. Personally, I would love to use the Mac tiles, which would just need a bit of tidying-up work as there are some pixels that do not exactly match the low-res tiles (which is why, most infamously, the Mac's version of Steel Mines of Kessel has issues). I think the tiles have been ripped and are somewhere on the forum; it shouldn't be too hard to locate them. I'm happy to help out with the work involved.

To forestall an obvious reply: no, this does not mean I want to use the Mac's dreadful version of the Fire exit. We can easily do better than that, either by taking this exit from another version or maybe by editing the graphics to get the best version of the exit we can. But my main concern is the terrain graphics, so let's sort those out first and worry about objects afterwards.

I'm a bit split on this. I personally don't think WinLemm tiles (the ones for terrain, anyway) look that great, not to mention that the crystal tileset (and maybe another one) doesn't even have specific hi-res terrain graphics, but since they all have edges that line up exactly with low-res pixel boundaries, they wouldn't result in any added ambiguity. Plus, WinLemm has fully hi-res objects which generally look pretty good, and personally, I feel that there is no negative with including them no matter what broader option is chosen (except for maybe the double-size low-res option).

As for terrain, both WinLemm tiles and upscaled tiles have their pros and cons for me. WinLemm tiles have some finer detail (if only on the interior of terrain pieces) but they also look kinda dark and murky, generally. Upscaled tiles are fuzzier with less detail, but they are, pretty much by definition, just as bright and colorful as the low-res tiles. I think it really depends on how important physics pixels being visible without CPM is to people.

Offline Will

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I am not familiar with the WinLemm tiles

(Super)Lemmini uses them, albeit with a corrected version of the Fire exit. They basically look exactly like the DOS/Amiga tiles but with more detail (since they're twice the resolution per tile); however, the colours are very bold which some people don't like.

Personally, I would love to use the Mac tiles, which would just need a bit of tidying-up work as there are some pixels that do not exactly match the low-res tiles

My main concern with the Mac tiles is the work that would need to be done to make them the same shape as the DOS ones; in some ways, this would be even more cumbersome a task than creating them from scratch using shape masks.

Having said that, I could be totally wrong about how much work this would actually be. If someone is happy to locate the graphics and either PM them to me or attach them to a reply post, I'll definitely take a look at them.

WinLemm tiles ... crystal tileset (and maybe another one) doesn't even have specific hi-res terrain graphics

Yes, they do. All official styles are hi-res in WinLemm's resources. I get your point about the colours, though. I'm not sure how big a task it would be to correct this for all tiles, but it's a possibility.

WinLemm tiles ... crystal tileset (and maybe another one) doesn't even have specific hi-res terrain graphics

Yes, they do. All official styles are hi-res in WinLemm's resources.

Ah, sorry, I should have been more clear. What I really meant was that the hi-res terrain graphics for the crystal tileset are just the low-res ones but doubled in size, as in, they are technically hi-res, but they don't have any more detail than the low-res ones. The objects have unique hi-res graphics though.

Offline Will

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What I really meant was that the hi-res terrain graphics for the crystal tileset are just the low-res ones but doubled in size, as in, they are technically hi-res, but they don't have any more detail than the low-res ones. The objects have unique hi-res graphics though.

Confirmed! I hadn't realised this before, well spotted!

I guess this shows though that simply doubling the low-res graphics in size could be a decent enough solution...

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Personally, I'd likely continue to use low-res mode most or all of the time - ultimately even if proper tiles were created (which would make it look a lot better if done right), the skill destruction masks themselves, particularly the miner (and I assume the fencer likely looks bad fort the same reasons but I haven't actually checked) look pretty bad in high-res mode in my personal opinion.

That said: I think the best options are to use the Mac tiles, or to create entirely new ones (I only specified the "other" vote in the poll). One potential issue that hasn't been brought up with the Mac tiles that were posted earlier today is that the OhNo tiles are missing: I don't know if they're simply yet to be posted or if there was never actually a Mac version of OhNo. If OhNo is missing, that would tilt things in favor of creating entirely new ones in my opinion.

I think I've posted my thoughts on the WinLemm tiles before, but since that's probably super buried, I'll reiterate. It is my opinion that the WinLemm tiles have bad texturing: overall, most of them are too shiny, which gives everything a rather metallic look, even though steel is the only metallic tile in the game - dirt and pillar being some of the worst sets from what I recall. Other than Dirt, which is a bit of a wash because it doesn't upscale that well but the WinLemm ones also look very much unlike dirt, I do think the upscaled graphics look better than the WinLemm ones, not because I like the upscaled graphics, but because I really don't like the WinLemm ones. The lemming sprites are okay, but the tiles suck.

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Quote
One way around this would be to resize every piece by x2 so that, even in hi-res, the tiles appear exactly as they would in low-res.

There is also no reason to take the time to do this instead of just using upscaling.nxmi to set the upscaler mode to "zoom".

(I am not at this stage going to change what NL defaults to for styles that don't specify anything, but I'm open to adding an explicitly-set setting for the official styles if there's enough demand.)
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Offline Will

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the skill destruction masks themselves, particularly the miner (and I assume the fencer likely looks bad fort the same reasons but I haven't actually checked) look pretty bad in high-res mode in my personal opinion

Can you elaborate on this please? I took great pains to ensure that every frame of these sprites matched with the destruction mask. The Miner, in particular, should have absolutely no problems. The Fencer was trickier to get right, but even this matches up perfectly.

One potential issue that hasn't been brought up with the Mac tiles that were posted earlier today is that the OhNo tiles are missing: I don't know if they're simply yet to be posted or if there was never actually a Mac version of OhNo. If OhNo is missing, that would tilt things in favor of creating entirely new ones in my opinion

Hmm. Good shout. I suppose we could use WinLemm or x2 for ONML styles, and use Mac for the Origs.

I've had a look at the Mac tiles and they really do look amazing. We could absolutely use these for orig, but in some ways I think it might be better to just include them as new styles (i.e. mac_dirt, mac_pillar, etc). That would mean we don't have to go through editing them (obviously, the exits and water graphics would need to be combined into single graphics rather than being split, and the Fire exit can be made-over as Proxima has already suggested).

Of course, if the consensus is to use these as the officials, then I'll help with the conversion work wherever I can.

There is also no reason to take the time to do this instead of just using upscaling.nxmi to set the upscaler mode to "zoom"

Yes, tbh I forgot about this option.

The upscaling.nxmi file allows everyone to have the best of both worlds, at least in terms of being able to make the hi-res graphics look identical to low-res and/or being able to use the Pixelart upscaler. However, there are very probably users who are unaware that they can set this themselves - could it be a menu option, perhaps? (If this falls into "no new suggestions" territory then ignore this, obvs)

I'm guessing that NeoLemmix will continue to keep this ability even if new graphics are introduced, so... really, all options remain available to us, which is great! :thumbsup:

Offline Proxima

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Hmm. Good shout. I suppose we could use WinLemm or x2 for ONML styles, and use Mac for the Origs.

I've had a look at the Mac tiles and they really do look amazing. We could absolutely use these for orig, but in some ways I think it might be better to just include them as new styles (i.e. mac_dirt, mac_pillar, etc). That would mean we don't have to go through editing them (obviously, the exits and water graphics would need to be combined into single graphics rather than being split, and the Fire exit can be made-over as Proxima has already suggested).

By the same process of searching through the forums, I found the Mac ONML graphics as well.

I don't think they should be included as separate styles, for a few different reasons:

* All styles are required to have low-res terrain, with high-res being optional. Since the Mac graphics are high-res only, we'd have to scale them down for low-res. Then we have the complication that the "Kessel root" and the normal root both exist in different styles and could both be used on the same level!

* High-res users wouldn't get to have the tiles when playing the original levels or usermade levels using the original styles, which was the main draw of ripping the graphics in the first place. Knowledgeable users could merge the styles on their own copies, but this is tedious busywork that has to be done over with every new NL installation, and won't help to make high-res more attractive to new users.

* It's very unlikely that anyone would bother to use the styles in preference to the default styles when making new levels.

* No matter what happens regarding the official styles, I am absolutely going to do the editing work purely for myself and my own copy of NL. So the question of how much work is involved shouldn't even come into play -- it is going to happen anyway.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 03:18:50 PM by Proxima »

Offline Proxima

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For those who haven't looked at the Mac graphics yet, here's a demonstration:

I've started work on formatting the Mac graphics so NL can recognise them, so two of the tiles in this screenshot are Mac graphics; the rest are the low-res graphics with NL's default upscaler. The difference is quite dramatic 8-)


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Still more, but not all, of the tiles replaced with the Mac graphics:


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Sorry for the quadruple post, but I figured people might want to take a look at this and test it out.

This zip contains all the Mac terrain for orig_pillar, formatted so that NL recognises it as counterparts of the original pieces. Simply unzip this folder into orig_pillar so that you have a "terrain-hr" folder containing all the tiles, set NL to high-res mode, and you can play any pillar level with Mac graphics! :thumbsup:

Caveats:

* I have not yet thoroughly gone over the pieces to check that pixel solidity is as it should be. There will be no problems with rectangular terrain (blocks, pillars and wood) but there may be issues with other pieces. I'll make looking over these my next task, before moving on to the next style.
* There is no high-res counterpart for pieces that didn't exist in the original style: block_09, wood_16 and the diagonal wood pieces (17 through 25). No problem for the original levels -- but for the sake of custom levels, I intend to make high-res counterparts for these (or maybe outsource the task :P )
« Last Edit: January 16, 2022, 12:42:16 AM by Proxima »

Offline Dullstar

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the skill destruction masks themselves, particularly the miner (and I assume the fencer likely looks bad fort the same reasons but I haven't actually checked) look pretty bad in high-res mode in my personal opinion

Can you elaborate on this please? I took great pains to ensure that every frame of these sprites matched with the destruction mask. The Miner, in particular, should have absolutely no problems. The Fencer was trickier to get right, but even this matches up perfectly.

As far as the goal of matching the physics goes, it does that pretty much perfectly. I just don't like how it looks. But of course with high-res graphics operating with low-res physics, there's a trade-off between how good it looks and how good it matches the physics.


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Offline Will

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By the same process of searching through the forums, I found the Mac ONML graphics as well

Nice find! It's good to know we have all of these now :thumbsup:

All styles are required to have low-res terrain, with high-res being optional. Since the Mac graphics are high-res only, we'd have to scale them down for low-res

Sure, good point.

Maybe once the tilesets are ready (I'm happy to help with the conversions wherever I can), we can have a poll to see if people prefer the Mac graphics vs. zoomed or upscaled DOS/Amiga graphics for hi-res. Sure, they're similar, but there are enough differences in the details that the tiles create quite a different look and feel which people may not prefer.

I myself am not 100% sure I'd want these all the time, hence my suggestion to include them as separate styles. Since I use hi-res exclusively, it's of particular interest to me that we get this right; whilst I'm savvy enough to be able to mod the official styles for my own copy of NL, other users may not be.

They do look amazing though, and you're doing a grand job so far with the conversion. Be assured that the Mac graphics have my support, FWIW.

No matter what happens regarding the official styles, I am absolutely going to do the editing work purely for myself and my own copy of NL. So the question of how much work is involved shouldn't even come into play -- it is going to happen anyway.

Great! :lemcat: Don't feel like you have to do everything though. By all means give me a shout if you need any help.

As far as the goal of matching the physics goes, it does that pretty much perfectly. I just don't like how it looks. But of course with high-res graphics operating with low-res physics, there's a trade-off between how good it looks and how good it matches the physics

As a hi-res user, I don't mind the way it looks at all. And, it's far more helpful to have the mask show what's actually going on physics-wise (which has always been the point, as I understand it). It means I never have to use CPM for this sort of thing (incidentally, I only ever use CPM for trigger points and to see what's what in new styles).

Frankly, I'm baffled that this is even a problem for some people. Lemmings is a pixellated game. "Hi-res" is something of a misnomer, in all honesty; sure, it's double the resolution, but we're still only dealing with tens of pixels even for quite large pieces.

I'm not saying your point is invalid, but it's hardly a comprehensive reason not to use the hi-res mode. You have stated that it's a matter of personal preference though, so... fair enough.

As far as the goal of matching the physics goes, it does that pretty much perfectly. I just don't like how it looks. But of course with high-res graphics operating with low-res physics, there's a trade-off between how good it looks and how good it matches the physics

Frankly, I'm baffled that this is even a problem for some people. Lemmings is a pixellated game. "Hi-res" is something of a misnomer, in all honesty; sure, it's double the resolution, but we're still only dealing with tens of pixels even for quite large pieces.

I think his problem is less about the absolute resolution, and more about how the lower resolution of the masks and the higher resolution of the terrain clash with each other, and I'd have to agree with him. Being able to see the pixels, even in hi-res, is fine. The problem arises because the low-res masks look blocky compared to the hi-res terrain. Diagonal edges that are implied to be smooth in low-res look jagged in hi-res, simply because there is more detail around it to compare it to. It's all about context. This is, in fact, the main reason I don't much care for the Windows version graphics. All diagonal edges look jagged because there's more detail on the interior of terrain to compare it to. Now, of course, Mac terrain pieces and NL upscaled terrain pieces don't have this issue, but the destruction masks still do.

Offline Will

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The problem arises because the low-res masks look blocky compared to the hi-res terrain. Diagonal edges that are implied to be smooth in low-res look jagged in hi-res, simply because there is more detail around it to compare it to.

As I understand it, the hi-res mode was only ever intended to be an aesthetic overlay. The physics will always remain low-res, and so it's important that the masks reflect this.

Perhaps this is, in fact, another argument in favour of using zoomed rather than upscaled low-res graphics when in hi-res mode (at least by default); that way, only the lems themselves will appear "hi-res", and all terrain and masks will appear as they do in low-res. Maybe this will help to reduce the comparitive blockiness of the masks.

As it stands, I generally don't mind this aspect of the hi-res mode and I personally still plan on using the upscaled graphics. But, I would support a move towards having zoom as the default if this would help.

Meanwhile, we have 3 votes for a completely new set of hi-res graphics! I'm not sure how likely this is to happen, in all honesty. We have a conversion of the Mac graphics well underway and I personally support the options that are, in fact, already currently available (i.e. zoom/upscale), so it's highly unlikely I'll be creating anything new myself (although I'd be happy to help with such a project if someone else were doing most of the work!). Maybe Zanzi or someone equally artistically skilled could have a look at it.

Offline Proxima

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As I understand it, the hi-res mode was only ever intended to be an aesthetic overlay. The physics will always remain low-res, and so it's important that the masks reflect this.

I can't agree. The point of using high-res is a decision to prioritise appearance over pixel precision, taken in the hope that level design should be about macroscopic decisions, and precisely which pixel a lemming is standing on shouldn't be important (outside of specialised situations found when attempting challenge solutions). Exactly the same process that leads a user to prefer the high-res curved pillar top tiles (see the Fun 2 screenshot on the previous page) would lead them to prefer a smooth destruction mask.

(Unfortunately, high-res destruction masks would definitely fall under the "no new suggestions" clause :'( )

Perhaps this is, in fact, another argument in favour of using zoomed rather than upscaled low-res graphics when in hi-res mode (at least by default); that way, only the lems themselves will appear "hi-res", and all terrain and masks will appear as they do in low-res. Maybe this will help to reduce the comparitive blockiness of the masks.

I am confused about why this is even being suggested as an option. Unless I've misunderstood something, you are literally suggesting that users who go into their NL settings and click the "hi-res" box should get low-res graphics.

(I'm not saying that "zoom" shouldn't exist as a possible setting for upscaling.nxmi; there could be individual styles and terrain pieces for which the designer doesn't want the upscaler's result and prefers to disable it, but doing this for the default styles should not be under discussion.)
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 02:08:50 AM by Proxima »

Offline Dullstar

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Perhaps this is, in fact, another argument in favour of using zoomed rather than upscaled low-res graphics when in hi-res mode (at least by default); that way, only the lems themselves will appear "hi-res", and all terrain and masks will appear as they do in low-res. Maybe this will help to reduce the comparitive blockiness of the masks.

I am confused about why this is even being suggested as an option. Unless I've misunderstood something, you are literally suggesting that users who go into their NL settings and click the "hi-res" box should get low-res graphics.

It would still give you the high-res lemming sprites, but honestly if that were all that high-res mode had been designed to do in the first place, I doubt it would have gotten in at all (and could be a potential juicy target for culling). Doesn't that really defeat the whole purpose of having a high-res mode in the first place?



That said, WillLem -- you don't have to try to convince me regarding the skill masks. I've stated my opinion regarding them, but it's not like it's a situation where I want to use high-res mode except this one thing is bothering me too much (though it, alongside the lack of proper style support, are certainly factors that push it from "I prefer low-res but high-res mode looks nice too" to "I dislike the way high-res mode looks"). For the graphic style used by Lemmings, more resolution isn't necessarily better (though not necessarily worse, either). It's just different, at least when good high-res graphics are provided.

The default upscaler does well sometimes (lots of the marble pieces look nice, though not all of them), but ultimately it's better used as a starting point for creating proper graphics if you ask me - that way, you could touch up the results as needed, keep anything that works well, and get rid of everything else. It would be nice if NL could dump the upscaler's results to a file for exactly this purpose.



Basically: I'm happy to share my opinions on what I think can make the high-res mode the best that it can be, but ultimately I'll probably keep using low-res mode regardless out of personal preference.

Offline Will

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The physics will always remain low-res, and so it's important that the masks reflect this.

The point of using high-res is a decision to prioritise appearance over pixel precision ... and precisely which pixel a lemming is standing on shouldn't be important

Maybe it shouldn't. But since NeoLemmix is a pixel-precise platform (and offers plenty of helper tools to deal with this), it's an unavoidable part of the game and its interface. If masks were given a hi-res counterpart that was physically inaccurate, that wouldn't be a good move and I would likely oppose it. Good thing that it most likely won't be happening!

Exactly the same process that leads a user to prefer the high-res curved pillar top tiles (see the Fun 2 screenshot on the previous page) would lead them to prefer a smooth destruction mask

Not necessarily, and I'm an example of a person to whom this doesn't really apply. Sure, I want the nicer looking lems and style pieces, but anything that reflects actual physics should ideally be as visually accurate as possible, even at the expense of aesthetics.

in favour of using zoomed rather than upscaled low-res graphics when in hi-res mode ... Maybe this will help to reduce the comparitive blockiness of the masks.

I am confused about why this is even being suggested as an option. Unless I've misunderstood something, you are literally suggesting that users who go into their NL settings and click the "hi-res" box should get low-res graphics.

Not exactly. I'm suggesting that those who are bothered by the blockiness of the masks may prefer "zoom" to be the default in the absence of actual hi-res counterpart graphics as opposed to "upscale". Of course, they may not.

Obviously, the ideal is to have actual hi-res graphics when in hi-res, and users who choose this option have to accept that because the physics are low-res, the masks will be also. It's a small price to pay for an overall better-looking game.

I'm not saying that "zoom" shouldn't exist as a possible setting for upscaling.nxmi ... but doing this for the default styles should not be under discussion.

Yes, but at present the official styles don't have hi-res counterparts. And, zoom/upscale are currently essential for all styles that don't have hi-res counterpart graphics. Therefore, it does need to be discussed whether we:

a) Include hi-res counterparts, whether by making them from scratch or using existing ones from elsewhere
b) Zoom by default with the option to upscale
c) Upscale by default with the option to zoom

I think most of us can agree that (a) is the best option, but if no suitable tiles are created (or if the Mac ones end up being the only ones presented and people don't like them), then (b) and (c) each have their pros & cons.

alongside the lack of proper style support

I'm not sure what "lack of proper style support" you're referring to here. The option is there for people to make hi-res tiles for their styles, if they wish. If they don't want to or don't have time, then NL provides no fewer than 2 options for rendering the tiles in hi-res. I don't see how this constitutes a lack of support.

[Zooming] would still give you the high-res lemming sprites, but ... Doesn't that really defeat the whole purpose of having a high-res mode in the first place?

No, because it gives you hi-res lemming sprites and a hi-res skill panel/interface; for me personally, that's enough, and I was pleased to help with bringing that into fruition.

As it stands, hi-res style pieces is a nice bonus which hi-res mode offers us the option of exploring. And, of course, there are users who feel that these ought to be an integral part of the mode anyway, at least for the official styles. Hence this topic.



Just to summarise the topic at this point:

:lemming: We currently do not have hi-res counterpart graphics for the official styles. Lots of people don't use hi-res, for various reasons. Maybe if we included hi-res graphics for the official styles, more people would take an interest in hi-res mode.

Proxima is currently working on transposing the official Mac styles to NeoLemmix, so this is one possibility (and an exciting one!), but there are others. A majority of people have stated that they would like to see something made entirely from scratch, so it's at least worth discussing this possibility as well as any others that may arise.

:lemming: Meanwhile, in the ongoing absence of hi-res graphics (current situation), which is the best option to have as the default between zooming and upscaling? I personally prefer upscaling, but many have stated that they don't like the way this looks. It has also come to light that it clashes with the destruction masks, so maybe zooming is the way to go - again, in the absence of actual hi-res graphics.

Obviously, if a style does have hi-res graphics, then people will just have to live with the relative blockiness of the masks. If that's enough of a reason for you not to bother with the mode, then so be it. But, hopefully, most people will agree that it's a minimal enough trade-off for the possibility of having a mostly great-looking game.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 02:24:54 PM by WillLem »

Offline Will

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So, to move the discussion forward.

I like the idea of exploring the Mac graphics, and I'm happy to help with that where I can. @Proxima, would you like me to work through a few of the styles alongside you?

The default upscaler does well sometimes ... but ultimately it's better used as a starting point for creating proper graphics if you ask me - that way, you could touch up the results as needed, keep anything that works well, and get rid of everything else.

I love it when we agree; this is something I've actually done myself (i.e. this is the way I processed most of the graphics for the Lemminas style in SuperLemmini).

The more I think about it, I like this as a way to go for the hi-res mode; this would give NeoLemmix its own look and feel, so it's definitely a favourable option. That said, it would be a lot of work. It's probably worth seeing how the Mac graphics turn out first.

It would be nice if NL could dump the upscaler's results to a file for exactly this purpose.

+1 for adding this capability to NL (although, it probably belongs in "new suggestions" territory, unfortunately).

Thankfully, Namida has already released NL's upscaler as a separate tool (this is what I used it to recreate the Lemminas style for SuperLemmini), but it does require processing each image individually. Better than nothing, though! :lemcat: I've attached it here.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 12:21:47 PM by WillLem »

Offline Proxima

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I like the idea of exploring the Mac graphics, and I'm happy to help with that where I can. @Proxima, would you like me to work through a few of the styles alongside you?

Right now, the biggest thing I need help with is providing high-res equivalents (that fit in with the Mac style, rather than the NL upscaler) for the pieces that have been newly added in NL and didn't exist in the original styles. Is that something you can help with?

Offline Will

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the biggest thing I need help with is providing high-res equivalents ... for the pieces that have been newly added in NL and didn't exist in the original styles. Is that something you can help with?

Absolutely. If you'd be happy to compile them all into a zip, I'll have a look at them as soon as I can.

Meanwhile, I've had a look at 2 of the pillar pieces which I thought could do with a touch-up. The first is block_07, which I think looks a bit too orange, particularly compared with the original.

Mac version, DOS/Amiga version (zoomed for comparison), new alternative which aims to match the DOS/Amiga colours more closely:


Also, the pillar ends look too "perfect" in the Mac version. I prefer the look of the DOS/Amiga ones, in which the circular orbs are more subtle, giving the pieces a more "ancient" look:

Mac version, DOS/Amiga version (zoomed for comparison), new alternative which gives the orbs a more "implied" look:


Let me know what you think. Happy to give other pieces similar treatment.



For reference, block_07 is Color Balanced with values -8, 0, +16 for RGB and +10, +10 for Brightness & Contrast

Offline Proxima

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Attached zip contains all the pieces in the NL original styles with no Mac counterpart. I'll do ONML later.

marble/steps_04 is included because it has no Mac counterpart in the zip ccexplore posted; since there is a gap in the piece numbering, I assume its counterpart did exist and was left out somehow. In any case, this is just a piece made up of smaller bricks that exist separately in the style, so there's no problem putting it together.

Offline Proxima

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I've updated the zip attached here with the diagonal blocks, bumps, circles and stairs all checked for pixel matching, i.e. an empty pixel in low-res should correspond to a completely empty 2x2 in high-res, and a full pixel should correspond to a partly or entirely full 2x2.

Pillar ends still remain to be done. I've given WillLem's modification a try, and here's how it looks on the actual level (contrast with the screenshot on the previous page):

Offline Dullstar

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By "lack of proper style support" I don't mean that the engine doesn't properly support high-res styles; rather, the styles themselves don't properly support it; rather, you're just left with upscaling. Note: here, when I say upscaling, I'm not referring to any specific method of upscaling - nearest neighbor (what we've been referring to as "zoom") and what NL currently does would both fall under the upscaling umbrella.

Offline Will

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By "lack of proper style support" I don't mean that the engine doesn't properly support high-res styles; rather, the styles themselves don't properly support it; rather, you're just left with upscaling

OK, I see what you mean.

Upscaling isn't necessarily a bad thing, though. In my honest opinion, I like the way the upscaled pieces look in hi-res and probably wouldn't have done much differently with them if tasked with the job of reproducing the pieces manually. They could have been a lot worse, in fairness!

I'm really only opening up this topic of discussion because the upscaled look puts a fair few people off, and a new look for the hi-res mode might help a few more people to get on board and give it a try. Why is it important? Well, if a content creator takes the considerable time and effort to create hi-res styles, I would hope that a fair few people would get to appreciate it.



Meanwhile, I'm wondering whether the Mac pieces might look a bit odd with jagged edges, thus moving the problem of the skill masks to the edges of basically every single tile which isn't straight-edged. I did a very quick fix on this one to demonstrate the effect (the edge pixel colours could maybe be re-jigged a bit to lessen this slightly):



Personally, I don't mind this and wouldn't see it as a strong enough reason not to use them. However, someone is bound to point it out eventually so let's see if we can address it early on. Ideally the hi-res tiles would take this into account wherever possible.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 08:09:15 PM by WillLem »

Offline Proxima

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Meanwhile, I'm wondering whether the Mac pieces might look a bit odd with jagged edges ... someone is bound to point it out eventually

Perhaps you missed the bit where I said I am still working on precisely this?

Offline Will

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Perhaps you missed the bit where I said I am still working on precisely this?

Ah yes. You said "Pillar ends still need to be done," but to be fair I didn't realise that you meant exactly this.

Anyways, at least we're all aware it needs to be fixed now.

a full pixel should correspond to a partly or entirely full 2x2

Really, it should be an entirely full 2x2, since the lem may end up looking like they're interacting with empty space otherwise, even if only when zoomed in.

I realise it makes very little difference, but... wherever possible, we should aim to completely fill all physics pixels. The tiles should match CPM exactly, in other words.

Offline Proxima

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Really, it should be an entirely full 2x2, since the lem may end up looking like they're interacting with empty space otherwise, even if only when zoomed in.

No. That is precisely what causes the jagged appearance. The aim is to keep the nice smooth appearance of the Mac high-res tiles while matching the NL physics.

Offline Will

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No. That is precisely what causes the jagged appearance. The aim is to keep the nice smooth appearance of the Mac high-res tiles while matching the NL physics.

I realise that, but what you're suggesting is that there be pixels which appear empty but are actually solid. Does this not constitute misleading visuals?

I'm aware that I may be wrong here and that it may not be an issue in practice - maybe I'd need to see an example of it working. I'm just making sure that we're on the right track.

Offline Simon

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pixels which appear empty but are actually solid. Does this not constitute misleading visuals?

Solid/air is a question about the lo-res physics pixels, which are composed of 2x2 hi-res pixels in the image. If, e.g., 3 out of the 4 hi-res pixels are colorful, we can argue that players interpret these 2x2 hi-res pixels as a solid lo-res pixel.

Proxima wants to make nice gentle slopes with hi-res pixels that produce near-full 2x2 terrain pixels or near-empty 2x2 air blocks.



Still, the devil will be in the details how we put these 2x2 blocks next to each other.

## #. .. ..
## ## #. ..

In this example, one argument is that the left 2x2 block produces a solid pixel, the second 2x2 block produces another solid pixel, and the third 2x2 block is air.

But the second argument is, due to lack of clear visual grid during play, the player can see this landscape as:

# ## .. .. .
# ## ## .. .

This you can interpret as a step of 0.5 lo-res pixels, which is not possible in NL physics.

I don't know how problematic this is. Such kind of gentle slope appears necessary to draw perfectly rounded pillars, but I'm
wary of the ultimate 2x1 abuse. (click to show/hide)

-- Simon
« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 07:40:31 PM by Simon »

Offline Will

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One way around this would be to resize every piece by x2 so that, even in hi-res, the tiles appear exactly as they would in low-res.

There is also no reason to take the time to do this instead of just using upscaling.nxmi to set the upscaler mode to "zoom"

Unfortunately, I couldn't get this to work. I have attached an upscaling.nxmi file with the upscaling set to ZOOM, and I tried placing this into several styles folders to no avail. It's very possible that I'm not doing something correctly, but I have followed the instructions as closely as possible.



Meanwhile, I have prepared a full set of PNGs which are essentially the default tiles doubled in size using Nearest Neighbour, so that they appear exactly the same in both high-res and low-res. If nothing else, these will be useful as templates for anyone who wishes to provide their own high-res modifications of these styles. At the very least, those who want the high-res lem sprites but want to keep the low-res tiles can do so using these.

To install, simply drag and drop the contents of the zip to your NL styles folder and choose "replace". NOTE: Using these styles in your copy of NeoLemmix will override the upscaling in high-res - you can revert to default behaviour by removing the "-hr" suffixed folders if you wish.

NOTE 2: These copies of the styles contain modded trap animations
- some of them are improvements of the existing default animations, others remove the secondary animation altogether. If this is not something that you want, then I don't recommend using these copies of the styles at all. DO NOT use only the "-hr" suffixed folders, as this will mess up some of your trap animations.

Offline Will

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Re: [NeoLemmix][DISC] Iindependent tiles in hi-res mode for official styles
« Reply #62 on: February 26, 2022, 04:49:56 PM »
I'm currently creating hybrid versions of the orig styles which use pieces from both Amiga/DOS and WinLemm, and in some cases even merge details from the WinLemm pieces into the Amiga pieces to create a more detailed, hi-res graphic which retains the generally more soft, pixellated look of Amiga.

The results so far are quite pleasing, and this has been a lot quicker to do than you might think. Resizing the pieces took a few minutes thanks to FastStone PNG editor, and now it's a case of choosing which pieces look best in which styles, and merging them in some cases, to create the hybrid style.

So far I've finished dirt and pillar. For reference, here's how Just Dig looked with WinLemm graphics:


And here it is with the "AmWin" hybrid graphics:


Only Floaters with WinLemm graphics:


And with "AmWin" hybrid graphics:


I'll be finishing these hybrid styles off anyway, so when I've finished I'll upload them as NeoLemmix-usable PNGs so people can try out the styles in NL hi-res mode.

Offline Will

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Re: [NeoLemmix][DISC] Iindependent tiles in hi-res mode for official styles
« Reply #63 on: February 27, 2022, 08:25:26 AM »
Marble is done; this one was the easiest because the WinLemm version mostly looks great anyway, all I did was swap in the Amiga graphic for the pink "stuff" (the splodgy clumps of plasticine-looking stuff at the base of the level), and even that I'm not 100% sure is necessary. Let me know which you prefer:

Konbanwa Lemming-san with WinLemm graphics:


Konbanwa Lemming-san with "AmWin" hybrid graphics (only the pink stuff replaced):


Fire, on the other hand, was a fair bit more work to get right. I've replaced most of the terrain pieces with Amiga ones, and the steel pieces are the two blended together. I liked the more solid look of the WinLemm ones, but prefer the softer shading of the Amiga ones. Blending them achieves the best of both worlds. Here's Triple Trouble with WinLemm graphics:


Triple Trouble with AmWin hybrid graphics:


And, to show the lettering, here's Running Jump with WinLemm graphics:


And with AmWin hybrid graphics. The lettering used is WinLemm but with the shading dimmed slightly, to make it less "glossy plastic" looking. This way, it looks more like the Amiga lettering but with some of the extra shading and depth of the WinLemm version:


Finally, Crystal is actually already a hybrid style even in WinLemm! Crystal is the only style to use original terrain, but with redesigned hi-res objects. All I did here was give the entrance hatch and exit a bit more detail, since I think that whoever did the WinLemm styles missed a trick in not doing so. Here's POOR WEE CREATURES, with new entrance hatch and exit detail (the blur in the centre of the graphic is where the centre of the level has been trimmed out, in order to get both objects in the same image):


I'm currently using these hybrid styles in my copy of SuperLemmini, but I'm happy to make NeoLemmix versions of them as well if people like them.



EDIT: I'll probably use some pieces from NeoLemmix's upscaler as well, since I particularly like how the large crystal pieces appear: