Poll

Should NeoLemmix's hi-res mode have independent tiles for official styles?

Yes, create new ones entirely from scratch
3 (30%)
Yes, double the size of the low-res ones so that they appear identical to their low-res counterparts (as opposed to upscaled, as they are currently)
1 (10%)
Yes, use the WinLemm ones (Fire exit would be corrected in this instance)
1 (10%)
Yes, but none of the above (please state new suggestion in comments if you choose this option)
2 (20%)
I don't mind either way
0 (0%)
No, let NL continue to upscale the low-res ones (status quo)
3 (30%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Author Topic: [NeoLemmix][DISC] Iindependent tiles in hi-res mode for official styles  (Read 17557 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online WillLem

  • Posts: 3219
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2020, 03:39:34 AM »
There is more vertical space available when the skill panel is smaller. This is relevant both in terms of "how much of the level is displayed without vertical scrolling at a certain zoom", and with certain settings combinations, what the initial level zoom will be.

I see, so... because the skill panel takes up less vertical real estate, the level no longer needs to be letterboxed, so fills the screen?

EDIT: Thinking about it, would the recently-implemented variable-res skill panel affect this? i.e. if in high-res with a low-res panel, would the level appear the same size as in low-res due to the vertically increased panel?

And again - how much of the screen / window the high-res panel fills depends on a lot of factors

Out of interest, to what extent will 12.11's DPI-aware feature help with this this? For example, I keep my screen at 1080p / 150%, and tend to use OS scaling on NeoLemmix because it makes the menu a lot easier to read (and I tend to use Windowed mode anyway so don't actually mind the smaller skill panel - a lot of my asking about this has been due to others' comments regarding it being a reason not to use hr).

*Incidentally, I do switch on Application upscaling when I'm recording in Windowed mode on OBS, however, because otherwise I get a ton of black space at the edge of the recording window (that's even if I choose "Resize Output - Source Size), I contacted OBS about it and it is to do with the OS scaling, apparently.

There seems to be no perfect combination of factors, as you've already pointed out! ;P
« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 03:59:18 AM by WillLem »

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12380
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2020, 06:35:52 AM »
Quote
Out of interest, to what extent will 12.11's DPI-aware feature help with this this? For example, I keep my screen at 1080p / 150%, and tend to use OS scaling on NeoLemmix because it makes the menu a lot easier to read (and I tend to use Windowed mode anyway so don't actually mind the smaller skill panel - a lot of my asking about this has been due to others' comments regarding it being a reason not to use hr).

Basically, as far as NeoLemmix is concerned (except in the Windows-style dialogs, like the Level Select), NeoLemmix would act as if your OS's scaling is 100% regardless of what it actually is. In particular, this would mean a 1920x1080 screen (or window) could zoom a hi-res skill panel to 2x, regardless of OS scaling.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1737
  • #RIP Spearer/Grenader (2020 - 2021)
    • View Profile
Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2020, 12:58:17 PM »
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. For example, I'm currently playing Lemminas, and I know it's been made to be enjoyed in HiRes. So that's how I started it. However, the game generally seems more fluent with LoRes (and that's despite me having a new gaming laptop from this year with 16 GB RAM; you know it's a gaming laptop (Lenovo Legion 7) if the keyboard is constantly flashing in all kinds of colours 8-) ).

In general, I prefer NeoLemmix to look like the original game, which did not only feature those low-resolution graphics
, but IIRC was actually inspired by precisely that? Maybe this is just an anecdote, but as far as I know, the origin story of Lemmings went something like this:


As a kid, though, I used to play Lemmings mainly on Mac.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

When HiRes mode was introduced, I understood it as trying to emulate playing Lemmings on Mac. However, in order to do this convincingly, I would need a couple other things as well:
- the Fire exit without horns (looked more like a rodent's face than a devil's face; my father always preferred the former, but he's an avid Mac user anyway)
- the background of the level menu would have to be green instead of brown-red (both my father and my younger self always thought this was supposed to be a crowd of lemmings from the top, so that you would only see their hair; consequently, the brown-red background didn't make any sense to us, and we considered it "ugly". Now I'm of course much more used to the red-brown one due to NeoLemmix)

Apart from that, though, the graphics almost look a bit too polished even for Mac. The lemmings almost have a 3D-character to them.

Which, in turn, will make HiRes mode perfect for my L3D-inspired pack "Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll"!
:thumbsup: As well as, if I or somebody else were to ever create one, a pack trying to emulate Lemmings Revolution. Because Revolution is a game with classic 2D-Lemmings physics, but 3D graphics.

But we'll have to wait for the introduction of Portals for such a pack to even be come possible (as Portals can also simulate wrap, and are part of the standard Lemmings Revolution objects anyway).
« Last Edit: December 23, 2021, 07:45:55 PM by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2087
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2020, 04:03:50 AM »
Multiple reasons for no:

1) I'm used to the low res graphics.

2) The high res graphics are mostly the low-res grpahics auto-upscaled, and while some look fine, many of them don't. For example, marble looks okay, but dirt looks bad.

3) The physics are low res anyway, so the physics won't necessarily match the visuals in high-res.

Online WillLem

  • Posts: 3219
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2020, 04:51:25 AM »
I think it's pretty clear where people stand on this. I'm amazed the option ever got implemented.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 3592
    • View Profile
Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2020, 12:01:05 PM »
I think it's pretty clear where people stand on this. I'm amazed the option ever got implemented.

I think you are addressing the wrong demographic with your poll.

Most people actively posting/discussing here do not really care about resolution/graphics and prefer to clearly see every pixel. High res is more like "nice to have, but I don't really care" to them.

Under newer users who don't actively post here and especially those peeking over from Lemmini, I see this option being used more. Also those, who tend to stick to more casual/ewasy levels. Users who actually care a bit more a bit about graphics in Lemmings (even if they are quite rare) are also addressed.

Why did this got implemented?

You provided many of the nessesary graphics yourself, the option does not interrupt the status-quo and there was definitly potential for it being used by incoming "Lemmini crowds".

It's nice to have even if it's not essential to the harcore core crowd. And again, you provided a good part of the work here! ;)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 06:39:43 PM by IchoTolot »

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12380
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2020, 05:42:54 PM »
Quote
Why did this got implemented?

You provided many of the nessesary graphics yourself, the option does not interrupt the status-quo and there was definitly potential for it being used by incoming "Lemmini crowds".

I would add to this that in least at my case, it is not a matter of "I dislike HR". It's a matter of "both have their strengths, but LR's benefits outweight HR's for me". Indeed, if on-the-spot switching was possible and I had a newer PC that could manage HR + high-quality minimap on large levels, I'd probably play in HR most of the time.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Online WillLem

  • Posts: 3219
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2020, 12:06:41 AM »
It's nice to have even if it's not essential to the harcore core crowd. And again, you provided a good part of the work here! ;)

Thanks for your comments, Icho. Your post cheered me up :lemcat:

on-the-spot switching

CPM? I realise it's not meant to be used too much, but if it was only used for the things you couldn't reasonably eyeball in HR, then... why not? That's pretty much exactly how I use it, to be fair (that and identifying steel and objects in custom styles, which takes seconds).
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 12:42:51 AM by WillLem »

Offline Silken Healer

  • Posts: 184
    • View Profile
Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2021, 09:01:27 PM »
I just hate the way it looks, I also hate when something is up scaled and all the edges are all round, bouncy and curvy :sick: . Also it is easier to tell exact measurements and exactly what is going on. Also that's how it looked when I played Lemmings before NeoLemmix.

Online WillLem

  • Posts: 3219
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2021, 09:30:53 PM »
I just hate the way it looks

Hate the way what looks?

I also hate when something is up scaled and all the edges are all round, bouncy and curvy :sick:

I am particularly fond of NL's upscaler, I like that it looks quite soft and plasticiney. I've also used it outside of NL for other projects (thanks to namida's standalone version of the upscaler). I even decided against creating standalone hi-res images for my styles because I like the results of the upscaling.

Also it is easier to tell exact measurements and exactly what is going on.

Do you mean with hi-res or low-res? If low-res, you can still tell exact measurements in hi-res by using CPM, if a level calls for such precision.

Also that's how it looked when I played Lemmings before NeoLemmix.

I love the Amiga version, which has the same "low-res" appearance as DOS and low-res NL, but I much prefer the "chunkier" appearance of the lemmings in the Windows 95 version. NL's hi-res mode allows players to get that look, if they prefer. I've never been aware of any massive trade-off in physics or anything like that, and if I want nostalgia I can fire up my Amiga emulator.

If anybody thinks that the hi-res mode could be improved in any way, to encourage people to use it, I'd be happy to hear some suggestions. There has often been talk of creating hi-res versions of the official styles, to replace the upscaling. Thoughts?

Offline Silken Healer

  • Posts: 184
    • View Profile
Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2021, 11:24:20 PM »
1. Yes
2. I don't
3. Low-res
4. I didn't play Windows 95 lemmings


Offline NM7 (or just Nico)

  • Posts: 8
  • a peruvian lemmings fan,idk to much english though
    • View Profile
Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2022, 03:46:53 AM »
i didnt like hi-resolution sprites, the lemmings has odd sprites for me, because of the shades, and the tiles like dirt for the first level looks awful honestly, i prefer to play this with original amiga/ms-dos sprites :-\
just wanna be friendly, i just dont know english, i wanna do my best, i can improve later though(el español es una buena lengua) im a intermediate player of lemmings too, i still don't finished original lemmings, but going well actualy

Online WillLem

  • Posts: 3219
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2022, 01:56:25 PM »
i didnt like hi-resolution sprites, the lemmings has odd sprites for me, because of the shades

The sprites are supposed to be shaded, so I guess this is just a matter of personal preference.

the tiles like dirt for the first level looks awful honestly

I quite like the upscaler tbh, I like that it makes everything look soft and plasticiney. However, I've noted that a lot of people tend to comment negatively on the upscaled tiles.

One way around this would be to resize every piece by x2 so that, even in hi-res, the tiles appear exactly as they would in low-res. I might give this a try and see what people think. Recreating the tiles as hi-res tiles would take a lot more work, and borrowing the ones from WinLemm probably wouldn't be a much more popular solution than the upscaled ones.

A poll might help with this.

Online WillLem

  • Posts: 3219
  • Unity isn't sameness, it's togetherness
    • View Profile
Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2022, 02:10:50 PM »
I've added a new poll regarding the hi-res official styles. It's clear that some discussion around this is needed to help decide what to do, if anything, about the styles. I've allowed 2 votes per person so that people can show support for multiple options if necessary.

Personally, I'd be happy to keep the upscaled low-res graphics, but if another option seems more popular then I'd be happy to help bring it into action.

Some quick Pros & Cons discussion for each option:

Create new tiles from scratch - An obvious con is that this could take a long time and be a lot of work, but the pro would be that NeoLemmix would have it's own versions of the official tiles (at least in hi-res), and they could be made to look however we like. Having said that, if I ended up being the person to work on this I would definitely be using the existing tiles as a guide, mainly just adding extra detail here and there.

Double-size the low-res tiles - A pro for this option is that it's easy and could be done in minutes. Everything would look identical to low-res but with hi-res lemming sprites, which could be seen as either a positive or a negative.

Use the WinLemm tiles - The main pro here is that all the tiles are ready to go, no work is needed other than to copy them into NeoLemmix's styles directory. A con is that the WinLemm tiles are very distinctive; opinion is divided as to how good they look, and NeoLemmix would end up looking like WinLemm/Lemmini; at least with the upscaler, NeoLemmix has its own unique look when in hi-res mode.

Keep the upscaled ones - This is of course the path of least resistance, no work required at all. NeoLemmix has its own distinctive look, and some people (myself included) think that the upscaled tiles look more than good enough. The only con here is that those who have already opted away from hi-res mode because of the upscaled tiles will have no reason to give hi-res mode another try.



Here are the results of the previous poll:

Do you use hi-res mode in NeoLemmix?

Yes (no reason) - 9.5% (2 votes)
Yes (reason given in comments) - 4.8% (1 vote)
No (no reason) - 42.9% (9 votes)
No (reason given in comments) - 42.9% (9 votes)
I didn't know NeoLemmix had a hi-res mode - 0% (0 votes)

Due to the results of this poll, I'm happy to look at adding independent hi-res tiles for the official styles in order to help improve the hi-res mode iff that's what most people would want to see.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 02:35:19 PM by WillLem »