it can be hard to judge exactly which group of four visual pixels corresponds to which physics pixel.
I guess if you liked the graphics used for Lemmini but you don't like using lemmini there's that
That and I have no way of High rezing the Millas sets
No, I just prefer how the lo-res style looks
I don't like the way the default graphics sets look when upscaled. What I would really like to do at some point is help with importing the Mac graphics so they can be used as hi-res graphics for the default sets
EDIT: Another consideration for me is that I very much like to have the high-quality minimap on, and this is a performance hit even in low-res; even more so in high-res.
EDIT: Another consideration for me is that I very much like to have the high-quality minimap on, and this is a performance hit even in low-res; even more so in high-res.
This surprises me: I would expect your setup to be way more advanced than mine, but my laptop* has no problem with the hr + HQ minimap combo.
*Dell Inspiron 5593, 10th Gen i5, Intel UHD
I think the high-resolution lemmings look great
I have an easier time reading the user interface in low-resolution mode.
Not sure what you mean here... the menus look identical in both resolutions. Do you mean the skill panel? And, if so, is it because the skill panel appears smaller in high res?
There is more vertical space available when the skill panel is smaller. This is relevant both in terms of "how much of the level is displayed without vertical scrolling at a certain zoom", and with certain settings combinations, what the initial level zoom will be.
And again - how much of the screen / window the high-res panel fills depends on a lot of factors
Out of interest, to what extent will 12.11's DPI-aware feature help with this this? For example, I keep my screen at 1080p / 150%, and tend to use OS scaling on NeoLemmix because it makes the menu a lot easier to read (and I tend to use Windowed mode anyway so don't actually mind the smaller skill panel - a lot of my asking about this has been due to others' comments regarding it being a reason not to use hr).
I think it's pretty clear where people stand on this. I'm amazed the option ever got implemented.
Why did this got implemented?
You provided many of the nessesary graphics yourself, the option does not interrupt the status-quo and there was definitly potential for it being used by incoming "Lemmini crowds".
It's nice to have even if it's not essential to the harcore core crowd. And again, you provided a good part of the work here! ;)
on-the-spot switching
I just hate the way it looks
I also hate when something is up scaled and all the edges are all round, bouncy and curvy :sick:
Also it is easier to tell exact measurements and exactly what is going on.
Also that's how it looked when I played Lemmings before NeoLemmix.
I just hate the way it looks
Hate the way what looks?
1. Yes
i didnt like hi-resolution sprites, the lemmings has odd sprites for me, because of the shades
the tiles like dirt for the first level looks awful honestly
I am not familiar with the WinLemm tiles
Personally, I would love to use the Mac tiles, which would just need a bit of tidying-up work as there are some pixels that do not exactly match the low-res tiles
WinLemm tiles ... crystal tileset (and maybe another one) doesn't even have specific hi-res terrain graphics
WinLemm tiles ... crystal tileset (and maybe another one) doesn't even have specific hi-res terrain graphics
Yes, they do. All official styles are hi-res in WinLemm's resources.
What I really meant was that the hi-res terrain graphics for the crystal tileset are just the low-res ones but doubled in size, as in, they are technically hi-res, but they don't have any more detail than the low-res ones. The objects have unique hi-res graphics though.
One way around this would be to resize every piece by x2 so that, even in hi-res, the tiles appear exactly as they would in low-res.
the skill destruction masks themselves, particularly the miner (and I assume the fencer likely looks bad fort the same reasons but I haven't actually checked) look pretty bad in high-res mode in my personal opinion
One potential issue that hasn't been brought up with the Mac tiles that were posted earlier today is that the OhNo tiles are missing: I don't know if they're simply yet to be posted or if there was never actually a Mac version of OhNo. If OhNo is missing, that would tilt things in favor of creating entirely new ones in my opinion
There is also no reason to take the time to do this instead of just using upscaling.nxmi to set the upscaler mode to "zoom" (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4337.0)
Hmm. Good shout. I suppose we could use WinLemm or x2 for ONML styles, and use Mac for the Origs.
I've had a look at the Mac tiles and they really do look amazing. We could absolutely use these for orig, but in some ways I think it might be better to just include them as new styles (i.e. mac_dirt, mac_pillar, etc). That would mean we don't have to go through editing them (obviously, the exits and water graphics would need to be combined into single graphics rather than being split, and the Fire exit can be made-over as Proxima has already suggested).
the skill destruction masks themselves, particularly the miner (and I assume the fencer likely looks bad fort the same reasons but I haven't actually checked) look pretty bad in high-res mode in my personal opinion
Can you elaborate on this please? I took great pains to ensure that every frame of these sprites matched with the destruction mask. The Miner, in particular, should have absolutely no problems. The Fencer was trickier to get right, but even this matches up perfectly.
By the same process (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4078.msg73863#msg73863) of searching through the forums, I found the Mac ONML graphics as well
All styles are required to have low-res terrain, with high-res being optional. Since the Mac graphics are high-res only, we'd have to scale them down for low-res
No matter what happens regarding the official styles, I am absolutely going to do the editing work purely for myself and my own copy of NL. So the question of how much work is involved shouldn't even come into play -- it is going to happen anyway.
As far as the goal of matching the physics goes, it does that pretty much perfectly. I just don't like how it looks. But of course with high-res graphics operating with low-res physics, there's a trade-off between how good it looks and how good it matches the physics
As far as the goal of matching the physics goes, it does that pretty much perfectly. I just don't like how it looks. But of course with high-res graphics operating with low-res physics, there's a trade-off between how good it looks and how good it matches the physics
Frankly, I'm baffled that this is even a problem for some people. Lemmings is a pixellated game. "Hi-res" is something of a misnomer, in all honesty; sure, it's double the resolution, but we're still only dealing with tens of pixels even for quite large pieces.
The problem arises because the low-res masks look blocky compared to the hi-res terrain. Diagonal edges that are implied to be smooth in low-res look jagged in hi-res, simply because there is more detail around it to compare it to.
As I understand it, the hi-res mode was only ever intended to be an aesthetic overlay. The physics will always remain low-res, and so it's important that the masks reflect this.
Perhaps this is, in fact, another argument in favour of using zoomed rather than upscaled low-res graphics when in hi-res mode (at least by default); that way, only the lems themselves will appear "hi-res", and all terrain and masks will appear as they do in low-res. Maybe this will help to reduce the comparitive blockiness of the masks.
Perhaps this is, in fact, another argument in favour of using zoomed rather than upscaled low-res graphics when in hi-res mode (at least by default); that way, only the lems themselves will appear "hi-res", and all terrain and masks will appear as they do in low-res. Maybe this will help to reduce the comparitive blockiness of the masks.
I am confused about why this is even being suggested as an option. Unless I've misunderstood something, you are literally suggesting that users who go into their NL settings and click the "hi-res" box should get low-res graphics.
The physics will always remain low-res, and so it's important that the masks reflect this.
The point of using high-res is a decision to prioritise appearance over pixel precision ... and precisely which pixel a lemming is standing on shouldn't be important
Exactly the same process that leads a user to prefer the high-res curved pillar top tiles (see the Fun 2 screenshot on the previous page) would lead them to prefer a smooth destruction mask
in favour of using zoomed rather than upscaled low-res graphics when in hi-res mode ... Maybe this will help to reduce the comparitive blockiness of the masks.
I am confused about why this is even being suggested as an option. Unless I've misunderstood something, you are literally suggesting that users who go into their NL settings and click the "hi-res" box should get low-res graphics.
I'm not saying that "zoom" shouldn't exist as a possible setting for upscaling.nxmi ... but doing this for the default styles should not be under discussion.
alongside the lack of proper style support
[Zooming] would still give you the high-res lemming sprites, but ... Doesn't that really defeat the whole purpose of having a high-res mode in the first place?
The default upscaler does well sometimes ... but ultimately it's better used as a starting point for creating proper graphics if you ask me - that way, you could touch up the results as needed, keep anything that works well, and get rid of everything else.
It would be nice if NL could dump the upscaler's results to a file for exactly this purpose.
I like the idea of exploring the Mac graphics, and I'm happy to help with that where I can. @Proxima, would you like me to work through a few of the styles alongside you?
the biggest thing I need help with is providing high-res equivalents ... for the pieces that have been newly added in NL and didn't exist in the original styles. Is that something you can help with?
By "lack of proper style support" I don't mean that the engine doesn't properly support high-res styles; rather, the styles themselves don't properly support it; rather, you're just left with upscaling
Meanwhile, I'm wondering whether the Mac pieces might look a bit odd with jagged edges ... someone is bound to point it out eventually
Perhaps you missed the bit where I said I am still working on precisely this?
a full pixel should correspond to a partly or entirely full 2x2
Really, it should be an entirely full 2x2, since the lem may end up looking like they're interacting with empty space otherwise, even if only when zoomed in.
No. That is precisely what causes the jagged appearance. The aim is to keep the nice smooth appearance of the Mac high-res tiles while matching the NL physics.
pixels which appear empty but are actually solid. Does this not constitute misleading visuals?
QuoteOne way around this would be to resize every piece by x2 so that, even in hi-res, the tiles appear exactly as they would in low-res.
There is also no reason to take the time to do this instead of just using upscaling.nxmi to set the upscaler mode to "zoom" (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4337.0)