Poll

Should NeoLemmix's hi-res mode have independent tiles for official styles?

Yes, create new ones entirely from scratch
3 (30%)
Yes, double the size of the low-res ones so that they appear identical to their low-res counterparts (as opposed to upscaled, as they are currently)
1 (10%)
Yes, use the WinLemm ones (Fire exit would be corrected in this instance)
1 (10%)
Yes, but none of the above (please state new suggestion in comments if you choose this option)
2 (20%)
I don't mind either way
0 (0%)
No, let NL continue to upscale the low-res ones (status quo)
3 (30%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Author Topic: [NeoLemmix][DISC] Iindependent tiles in hi-res mode for official styles  (Read 17525 times)

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Offline WillLem

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I'm hoping to get some feedback on NeoLemmix's high-resolution (hr) graphics feature, which has now been available since V12.8.

Please indicate whether or not you use this feature by responding to the above poll, and it would be great if you could expand on this by providing some reasons, thoughts and opinions regarding your choice.

If you do use high-res, please explain what you like about it, to perhaps encourage other users to try it out if they haven't already done so.

If you don't use high-res, please be as specific as you can as to the reasons for this choice.

Thanks! :lemcat:
« Last Edit: February 25, 2022, 04:05:29 PM by WillLem »

Offline namida

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2020, 09:09:29 PM »
Generally, no. Even with the focus put on retaining accuracy between visuals / physics, it's always a tad harder to judge distances simply because each physics-pixel is represented by multiple visual pixels, so it can be hard to judge exactly which group of four visual pixels corresponds to which physics pixel.

The only time I tend to use high-res mode is when testing code that does / could affect high-res mode, personally.

I should clarify that I do like high-res from an aesthetic point of view, but being able to judge physics more accurately in low-res outweighs this for me. I'd perhaps be likely to change if a hotkey to switch while in-game existed, but this is not feasible to implement without basically having full GPU rendering (too much of a performance hit, as to achieve this it would essentially need to render both resolutions most of the time).

EDIT: Another consideration for me is that I very much like to have the high-quality minimap on, and this is a performance hit even in low-res; even more so in high-res.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 10:11:10 PM by namida »
My Lemmings projects
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Offline WillLem

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2020, 09:11:23 PM »
I use it because I prefer a more lush, detailed, textured appearance to the game.

NeoLemmix's high-resolution mode allows lemmings, objects, terrain, skill panels and even the cursor to appear "fuller" and more detailed. Making things appear 3D, for example, is easier when working on higher resolution graphics - you literally have twice the number of pixels to work with.

Furthermore, namida's custom-designed upscaler provides low-res versions of graphics with a more lush, textured appearance, so even those styles that don't provide high-res graphics still look great.

Finally, I spent many hours editing, designing and modifying the high-resolution default (and xmas) lemmings sprites, so I do of course wish to enjoy the fruits of my work - and for others to do so as well! :lemcat:

Offline WillLem

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2020, 09:16:11 PM »
it can be hard to judge exactly which group of four visual pixels corresponds to which physics pixel.

Can you give an example of this happening, in particular where it could be an issue?

I personally have never noticed it, and that's in many months of playing challenges which require pixel-perfect precision (such as bash-cancelling, perfect bomber placement, etc). It's possible that there could be something happening here that I don't realise is happening, but it's never really been an issue either way.

Offline GigaLem

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2020, 09:19:36 PM »
Personally while the idea is nice, I don't really have a reason to. I guess if you liked the graphics used for Lemmini but you don't like using lemmini there's that but asside from that I'm perfectly fine with the original rez. That and I have no way of High rezing the Millas sets

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2020, 09:26:43 PM »
No, I just prefer how the lo-res style looks, even if I spent ages playing lemmini and grew up playing the mac version of lemmings which is also high res.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2020, 09:27:28 PM »
I don't like the way the default graphics sets look when upscaled. What I would really like to do at some point is help with importing the Mac graphics so they can be used as hi-res graphics for the default sets -- I think someone started on this, but they would have to be edited to make sure they comply with the physics inherited from the low-res graphics, so that would be a lot of work. I'd be happy to help out, but at the moment I have too many projects on the go and not enough time, so that one will have to wait.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2020, 09:38:52 PM »
I guess if you liked the graphics used for Lemmini but you don't like using lemmini there's that

Whilst the high-res sprites I designed are based on the Lemmini (and thus WinLemm) ones, some of them are completely original and unique to NeoLemmix, in particular the new skills ones, and all of the xmas ones.

Also, NeoLemmix now allows users to create fully high-res styles, and mix them with other styles as well. Not to mention the ease with which this can be done. There's so much more to it than it just being a "(Super)Lemmini alternative" - and that's coming from someone who still uses SuperLemmini!

That and I have no way of High rezing the Millas sets

If you have a PNG editor, you can 200% resize them using Nearest Neighbour - that will give you a graphic double the size of the original, but identical in appearance. From there, you can edit the graphic to give it a bit more shape and detail, if desired. It's much easier than creating the graphics from scratch, anyways.

Here's a high-res millas ascender I made earlier 8-)



No, I just prefer how the lo-res style looks

Fair enough :lemcat:

I don't like the way the default graphics sets look when upscaled. What I would really like to do at some point is help with importing the Mac graphics so they can be used as hi-res graphics for the default sets

I actually don't mind the upscaling, but I agree it would be nice to have a full set of hr graphics for the defaults. How might one go about obtaining the Mac ones?

And, how do they differ from the hr WinLemm ones?

« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 09:47:49 PM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2020, 11:01:14 PM »
EDIT: Another consideration for me is that I very much like to have the high-quality minimap on, and this is a performance hit even in low-res; even more so in high-res.

This surprises me: I would expect your setup to be way more advanced than mine, but my laptop* has no problem with the hr + HQ minimap combo.

*Dell Inspiron 5593, 10th Gen i5, Intel UHD

Offline namida

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2020, 11:19:26 PM »
EDIT: Another consideration for me is that I very much like to have the high-quality minimap on, and this is a performance hit even in low-res; even more so in high-res.

This surprises me: I would expect your setup to be way more advanced than mine, but my laptop* has no problem with the hr + HQ minimap combo.

*Dell Inspiron 5593, 10th Gen i5, Intel UHD

Not at all. Your CPU (or at least, the specific model I'm guessing you'll have) is better than mine for any task that isn't designed to use 8 (or more) cores: https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i7-6700HQ-vs-Intel-Core-i5-1035G1/m34954vsm895407

NeoLemmix is basically a single-core deal. A second thread (which would generally run on a different core, I believe) is used for audio and for downloading files, but those barely register performance-wise so single-core performance is what really matters.

On top of that, my laptop has older DDR3 RAM, which is slower than the DDR4 that yours almost certianly has.

I'm quite overdue for an upgrade, to be fair. (Dell Inspiron 7559, 6th gen i7; GPU doesn't matter for NL).
« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 11:24:52 PM by namida »
My Lemmings projects
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3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Pooty

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2020, 12:35:15 AM »
I don't currently use high-resolution mode, for two reasons.
  • As it stands, I think the game looks better in low-resolution mode (except for the lemmings themselves; I think the high-resolution lemmings look great).
  • I have an easier time reading the user interface in low-resolution mode.
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Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline WillLem

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2020, 01:27:12 AM »
I think the high-resolution lemmings look great

Good to know, thanks! Maybe when we have hr versions of the default sets, more people will give it a try. It seems that the upscaler is an acquired taste. I personally really like it, but I can understand why others would prefer the more "pixellated" look.

I have an easier time reading the user interface in low-resolution mode.

Not sure what you mean here... the menus look identical in both resolutions. Do you mean the skill panel? And, if so, is it because the skill panel appears smaller in high res?

Offline Pooty

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2020, 01:54:48 AM »
Not sure what you mean here... the menus look identical in both resolutions. Do you mean the skill panel? And, if so, is it because the skill panel appears smaller in high res?

Yeah, I'm referring to the skill panel, and also the text that appears when you hover your mouse over objects in Clear Physics Mode. The size seems fine to me. I think it's because it looks a bit smudgy in high-resolution mode, and some of the black outlines seem a touch too thick here and there as well.
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline WillLem

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2020, 02:45:49 AM »
OK... there's definitely something going on here. I've been exclusively using high res since 12.8 was released, and I never noticed this before, but there is a discernable, noticeable difference in how the levels and skill panel are displayed in each resolution.

After Pooty's comments, I decided to try and get to the bottom of this once and for all. I did a fresh install of NL and changed no settings other than the resolution. What you see here is full-screen screenshots.

Here's what to look out for:

1. The skill panel fills the screen in low resolution, and shrinks to almost half the size in high resolution. This has already been noted in recent topics, but it's worth paying attention to.

2. The actual level itself actually appears slightly bigger in high resolution: note that the edges of the level are different, even though the zoom is identical. You can also see from the minimap that less of the level is being displayed, and yet the level is not vertically scrolling.

3. The CPM text (and indeed the skill panel) appear to be using upscaled graphics in hr. Whilst the upscaler looks great for terrain and objects, I wouldn't suggest using it for the helper or panel graphics. I am more than happy to produce hr graphics for these items, so that they are easier to read and look better (I never noticed this before since I use my own custom-designed panel).

4. As already noted, I like the results of the upscaler in high-res. However, I can see why some people would prefer the low-res terrain and objects, because they have been designed for that resolution, after all. I think Proxima's suggestion of using high-resolution graphics for the default styles needs to happen soonish.

Here are the screenshots. Note that they have been resized by 50% for ease of comparison in this post, so I have also attached the originals for more detailed comparison if needs be:


Low resolution, full screen, 1x zoom (automatically increased to 2x)


High resolution, full screen, 1x zoom (automatically increased to 2x)


Low resolution, full screen, 1x zoom (automatically increased to 2x), CPM enabled


High resolution, full screen, 1x zoom (automatically increased to 2x), CPM enabled

« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 02:54:23 AM by WillLem »

Offline namida

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Re: [POLL] Do you use high-resolution mode in NeoLemmix?
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2020, 02:55:41 AM »
There is more vertical space available when the skill panel is smaller. This is relevant both in terms of "how much of the level is displayed without vertical scrolling at a certain zoom", and with certain settings combinations, what the initial level zoom will be.

And again - how much of the screen / window the high-res panel fills depends on a lot of factors and there is no single universal answer to what it will do.
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3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)