Author Topic: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper  (Read 12473 times)

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Offline namida

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EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
« on: March 22, 2020, 11:04:58 AM »
Jumper Experimental V5: (Link removed)

Usage - New install:
1. Download and set up a new copy of the stable version of NeoLemmix
2. Extract the above ZIP over the top of this new copy
3. If you update "default" or "xmas", whether it's via the style manager or otherwise, re-extract the "styles" folder from the above zip (to re-add the Jumper sprite)

Usage - Upgrade from earlier Jumper experimentals:
1. Extract the above ZIP over your existing Jumper experimental copy

A copy of the editor with Jumper support is included. It's otherwise identical to the current stable editor build.

This experimental should only be used to get a feel for how the Jumper works, or to test for bugs. While you can start making content if you like, be aware that all of the following are possible:
- The Jumper has further bugfixes (likely)
- The physics of the Jumper are changed, especially in regards to edge cases / interactions (possible)
- The Jumper gets delayed to V12.11.X (unlikely)
- The Jumper doesn't go ahead at all (extremely unlikely)


KNOWN ISSUES
- No skill shadow has been implemented yet (Fixed in update on 2020-03-30)
- Object trigger checks for the "inbetween" positions each frame are awkward (Fixed in update on 2020-03-30)
- Bug: Cloner should be possible to assign to a Jumper, but it isn't (Fixed in update on 2020-03-25)
- Bug: Error message when jumper hits a wall as a non-climber from certain initial positions (Fixed in update on 2020-03-31)
- Bug: Shadow is incorrect on last frame in situations that would trigger above bug (Fixed in update on 2020-03-31)
- Bug: Error message when jumper hits a wall as a climber from certain initial positions (Fixed in update on 2020-04-05)
- Bug: Jumper sometimes unaffected by blockers or force fields (Fixed in update on 2020-04-05)
- Do terrain checks need to be relaxed or adjusted on the first frame? (Post in Jumper physics topic)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 07:57:10 PM by namida »
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Proxima

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2020, 08:53:12 PM »
My first Jumper level :) Now that I've tried it out, I think what we decided about the size of the jump works very well in practice. I'd be happy with keeping things as they are now.


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Offline DireKrow

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2020, 10:51:00 PM »
Made two levels myself, just experimenting a bit with some simple jumper applications. If you're using a fresh NL install (as the OP suggests), note that you need to download the L2 styles.

The Chosen One (Easy)


The Amazing Leap (Medium)


EDIT: Updated Amazing Leap since WillLem and Armani found backroutes. My changes don't completely remove WL's, but it makes it more acceptable as an alternate solution. The intended solution changed a little too.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 05:28:03 AM by DireKrow »
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My NeoLemmix Levels: The Krow Files (File A v1.2 released 21-Feb-2020)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2020, 12:20:47 AM »
Great job, namida! :thumbsup: Here are my first impressions:

1) The Jumper actually jumps a little further than I expected - but that's a good thing! :) Better too far than too short. I placed a couple of standard L2 square blocks next to each other, at such a distance that the gaps between them were just as wide as the blocks themselves. When jumping from block to block, the Jumper would land a little further to the front on each next block compared to the previous one, until he would eventually jump too far and fall off the next block. But that's precisely what I meant anyone can easily adapt in their levels - by just placing these blocks a little further apart, or intentionally not doing so (making the placement of the Jumper a little more challenging, or dare I say "add execution difficulty", for those who like it :P ). In short: The distance seems perfect for me! Right now the Jumper can jump from the foot of a Builder staircase right to its top, which seems very fitting overall.

2) So, looks like updrafts do increase the jump height, after all? It's minor, so hard to notice, but it does indeed look like it. I certainly approve of this! :thumbsup:

3) I had a little trouble getting Jumper-Shimmier transitions to work at first, because I thought the Shimmier had to be assigned when the Jumper actually touched the ceiling - not while he was on the upward part of his curve, still moving towards the ceiling. Thus, initially I thought Jumper-Shimmier transitions hadn't been implemented (yet). But now that I've found out how it works, it seems fine to me!

4) One thing that definitely doesn't work yet is Jumper cloning: The Cloner assignment is delayed until the Jumper lands on his feet again, and then the Clone is a regular Walker. Maybe this is intentional at this point and you simply haven't had the time yet to implement this? ;) In the Anticipated-Jumper-behaviour thread (i.e. the one before discussing the actual physics), it was already pointed out that Jumper cloning would be one of the most difficult parts to code.

5) Another thing that didn't come to my mind until just now: How should Jumpers respond to splat pads? :evil:
Shimmiers die when failing to reach for a ceiling, because they transition back into a Faller.
Jumpers will obviously also die if a platform with a splat pad is 1 pixel lower than the platform they started jumping from, because they will transition to a Faller after the jumping arc is completed, and therefore splat.
But what about a Jumper landing straight on a splat pad at the end of or even earlier during his jump (e.g. when jumping onto a platform higher than the one he started from)?

Splat pads seem like a great way to make certain paths "Jumper-proof". We have a new skill, that means we also need to consider new potential backroutes. ;)

I'm just not sure whether it would be counter-intuitive as far as mechanics are concerned, because the Jumper wouldn't transition into a Faller before hitting the splat pad and splatting. But they still "land on it", so that would make the player expect them to splat again...

Just for everyone's information: Currently, Jumpers don't splat when landing on a splat pad within the course of their arc (=meaning the only splat if they become a regular Faller after the jump).

The latter point probably shouldn't be discussed here, but in the Jumper physics thread. I just wanted to mention it for overview purposes; I'll copy that last part and paste it over there. ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2020, 01:33:58 AM »
Quote
2) So, looks like updrafts do increase the jump height, after all? It's minor, so hard to notice, but it does indeed look like it. I certainly approve of this! :thumbsup:

No, they don't. Or at least, shouldn't. (It's possible I may have implemented this under the initial assumption the suggestion would be accepted, then forgotten to remove it later. If this is the case, expect it to be removed at some point between now and V12.9.0-RC1.)
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline WillLem

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2020, 04:23:56 AM »
My first Jumper level :)

Made two levels myself, just experimenting a bit with some simple jumper applications.

I LP'd these levels just now, but the streaming app stopped working halfway through so I lost the game footage! :'(

Anyone know of a decent screen capture software that's free, easy to use and works? I'm using OBS studio which normally works for short captures but I can't seem to get it to reliably work for longer streams.

Anyway, here are my replays for these levels, at least. The Amazing Leap was really hard, I was determined to get it for the LP though so managed to eventually find a solution!

Offline Armani

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2020, 04:46:26 AM »
Solved Proxima and Direcrow's levels ;)
Nice tutorial level for jumper proxima :thumbsup:

I like The Chosen One and I think it's a nice  introduction level for jumper-climber interaction.
And it seems like I backrouted The Amazing Leap.
My newest Neolemmix level pack : Lemmings Halloween 2023 :D 8-)

About Armani: Armani's Blog
My NL level packs(in chronological order):
  Lemmings Uncharted [Medium~Extreme]
  Xmas Lemmings 2021 [Easy~Very Hard]
  Lemmings Halloween 2023 [Easy-Very Hard]

Offline Armani

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2020, 05:06:51 AM »
And here's my first jumper level!

Title : Lems are Having Fun
Difficulty : 1.5/5
Tileset : Orig Brick

Save Requirement : 5/5
Skillset : 7jumper 1shimmier 5climber 1digger


I have some level ideas using jumper, but cloning the jumper is not implemented yet :(
My newest Neolemmix level pack : Lemmings Halloween 2023 :D 8-)

About Armani: Armani's Blog
My NL level packs(in chronological order):
  Lemmings Uncharted [Medium~Extreme]
  Xmas Lemmings 2021 [Easy~Very Hard]
  Lemmings Halloween 2023 [Easy-Very Hard]

Offline DireKrow

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2020, 05:38:16 AM »
I fixed or mitigated the backroutes in mine, and I also played the others so far~

Both fun and good looking. Lems are Having Fun looks especially great. Both are nice jumper tutorials.

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My NeoLemmix Levels: The Krow Files (File A v1.2 released 21-Feb-2020)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2020, 09:14:52 AM »
Quote
No, they don't. Or at least, shouldn't. (It's possible I may have implemented this under the initial assumption the suggestion would be accepted, then forgotten to remove it later. If this is the case, expect it to be removed at some point between now and V12.9.0-RC1.)

Okay, good to know! ;) I wasn't planning to use it anytime soon anyway. Have a look at it again and, if there is indeed a difference, just remove it whenever you find the time for it.

That leaves the Jumper-Cloning remaining, because that was definitely agreed upon that it should be possible, and that it should create a Jumper maintaining the trajectory in the opposite direction.

But as I said, this one is probably the most difficult thing to code... ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Proxima

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2020, 01:32:27 PM »
Anyone know of a decent screen capture software that's free, easy to use and works? I'm using OBS studio which normally works for short captures but I can't seem to get it to reliably work for longer streams.

OBS Studio works fine for me; I've been regularly doing private streams to play games with my girlfriend, for up to 3 or 4 hours. If you're having trouble with it then maybe talk to me in discord and I'll see if I can help.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2020, 02:58:39 PM »
Well then, since everyone is sharing their first ideas, here are two new Sports levels intended for Lemmings Hall of Fame! :)


Jump around
(Difficulty: Easy)


Start me up
(Difficulty: Medium-Hard)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Armani

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2020, 03:40:06 PM »
Seems like first one is intended and second one is a minor backroute.
Nice level anyway :D
I think the jumper is overpower like a walker or even more :P
My newest Neolemmix level pack : Lemmings Halloween 2023 :D 8-)

About Armani: Armani's Blog
My NL level packs(in chronological order):
  Lemmings Uncharted [Medium~Extreme]
  Xmas Lemmings 2021 [Easy~Very Hard]
  Lemmings Halloween 2023 [Easy-Very Hard]

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2020, 08:04:41 PM »
Thanks a lot, Armani! ;) "Jump around" is completely as intended; "Start me up" is simply a very nice alternative solution that saves quite a few Jumpers, which are basically only there to allow for timing-based approaches.

But most of all, you've once again taught me something new! :thumbsup: I knew it wasn't possible to get through a ceiling by cancelling a Fencer - in contrast to cancelling a Basher, where lemmings can walk up the slope and slip through a thin ceiling. However, I hadn't thought of somebody using that trick on a Fencer when going through a slope in the opposite direction (here: slope leading from the left bottom to the right top, and the Fencer comes from the right bottom) - because then, cancelling the Fencer actually works and still allows lemmings to slip through the ceiling! ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline DireKrow

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Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2020, 10:22:24 PM »
Solved your levels Strato. Attached my first solution to Jump Around and a 0 jumper solution to Start Me Up. Both (especially the latter) were satisfying puzzles!

LOTY 2020 Winner
My NeoLemmix Levels: The Krow Files (File A v1.2 released 21-Feb-2020)