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NeoLemmix => NeoLemmix Main => Topic started by: namida on March 22, 2020, 11:04:58 AM

Title: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: namida on March 22, 2020, 11:04:58 AM
Jumper Experimental V5: (Link removed)

Usage - New install:
1. Download and set up a new copy of the stable version of NeoLemmix (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4639.0)
2. Extract the above ZIP over the top of this new copy
3. If you update "default" or "xmas", whether it's via the style manager or otherwise, re-extract the "styles" folder from the above zip (to re-add the Jumper sprite)

Usage - Upgrade from earlier Jumper experimentals:
1. Extract the above ZIP over your existing Jumper experimental copy

A copy of the editor with Jumper support is included. It's otherwise identical to the current stable editor build.

This experimental should only be used to get a feel for how the Jumper works, or to test for bugs. While you can start making content if you like, be aware that all of the following are possible:
- The Jumper has further bugfixes (likely)
- The physics of the Jumper are changed, especially in regards to edge cases / interactions (possible)
- The Jumper gets delayed to V12.11.X (unlikely)
- The Jumper doesn't go ahead at all (extremely unlikely)


KNOWN ISSUES
- No skill shadow has been implemented yet (Fixed in update on 2020-03-30)
- Object trigger checks for the "inbetween" positions each frame are awkward (Fixed in update on 2020-03-30)
- Bug: Cloner should be possible to assign to a Jumper, but it isn't (Fixed in update on 2020-03-25)
- Bug: Error message when jumper hits a wall as a non-climber from certain initial positions (Fixed in update on 2020-03-31)
- Bug: Shadow is incorrect on last frame in situations that would trigger above bug (Fixed in update on 2020-03-31)
- Bug: Error message when jumper hits a wall as a climber from certain initial positions (Fixed in update on 2020-04-05)
- Bug: Jumper sometimes unaffected by blockers or force fields (Fixed in update on 2020-04-05)
- Do terrain checks need to be relaxed or adjusted on the first frame? (Post in Jumper physics topic) (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4656.msg81196#msg81196)
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: Proxima on March 22, 2020, 08:53:12 PM
My first Jumper level :) Now that I've tried it out, I think what we decided about the size of the jump works very well in practice. I'd be happy with keeping things as they are now.

(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/249723222155591690/691352813695139941/Class_of_91.png)
Class of '91
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: DireKrow on March 22, 2020, 10:51:00 PM
Made two levels myself, just experimenting a bit with some simple jumper applications. If you're using a fresh NL install (as the OP suggests), note that you need to download the L2 styles.

The Chosen One (Easy)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/3yop78xmrq8kzaw/0002.png?dl=1)

The Amazing Leap (Medium)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/19q8iq03lsxe58m/0001c.png?dl=1)

EDIT: Updated Amazing Leap since WillLem and Armani found backroutes. My changes don't completely remove WL's, but it makes it more acceptable as an alternate solution. The intended solution changed a little too.
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: Strato Incendus on March 23, 2020, 12:20:47 AM
Great job, namida! :thumbsup: Here are my first impressions:

1) The Jumper actually jumps a little further than I expected - but that's a good thing! :) Better too far than too short. I placed a couple of standard L2 square blocks next to each other, at such a distance that the gaps between them were just as wide as the blocks themselves. When jumping from block to block, the Jumper would land a little further to the front on each next block compared to the previous one, until he would eventually jump too far and fall off the next block. But that's precisely what I meant anyone can easily adapt in their levels - by just placing these blocks a little further apart, or intentionally not doing so (making the placement of the Jumper a little more challenging, or dare I say "add execution difficulty", for those who like it :P ). In short: The distance seems perfect for me! Right now the Jumper can jump from the foot of a Builder staircase right to its top, which seems very fitting overall.

2) So, looks like updrafts do increase the jump height, after all? It's minor, so hard to notice, but it does indeed look like it. I certainly approve of this! :thumbsup:

3) I had a little trouble getting Jumper-Shimmier transitions to work at first, because I thought the Shimmier had to be assigned when the Jumper actually touched the ceiling - not while he was on the upward part of his curve, still moving towards the ceiling. Thus, initially I thought Jumper-Shimmier transitions hadn't been implemented (yet). But now that I've found out how it works, it seems fine to me!

4) One thing that definitely doesn't work yet is Jumper cloning: The Cloner assignment is delayed until the Jumper lands on his feet again, and then the Clone is a regular Walker. Maybe this is intentional at this point and you simply haven't had the time yet to implement this? ;) In the Anticipated-Jumper-behaviour thread (i.e. the one before discussing the actual physics), it was already pointed out that Jumper cloning would be one of the most difficult parts to code.

5) Another thing that didn't come to my mind until just now: How should Jumpers respond to splat pads? :evil:
Shimmiers die when failing to reach for a ceiling, because they transition back into a Faller.
Jumpers will obviously also die if a platform with a splat pad is 1 pixel lower than the platform they started jumping from, because they will transition to a Faller after the jumping arc is completed, and therefore splat.
But what about a Jumper landing straight on a splat pad at the end of or even earlier during his jump (e.g. when jumping onto a platform higher than the one he started from)?

Splat pads seem like a great way to make certain paths "Jumper-proof". We have a new skill, that means we also need to consider new potential backroutes. ;)

I'm just not sure whether it would be counter-intuitive as far as mechanics are concerned, because the Jumper wouldn't transition into a Faller before hitting the splat pad and splatting. But they still "land on it", so that would make the player expect them to splat again...

Just for everyone's information: Currently, Jumpers don't splat when landing on a splat pad within the course of their arc (=meaning the only splat if they become a regular Faller after the jump).

The latter point probably shouldn't be discussed here, but in the Jumper physics thread. I just wanted to mention it for overview purposes; I'll copy that last part and paste it over there. ;)
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: namida on March 23, 2020, 01:33:58 AM
Quote
2) So, looks like updrafts do increase the jump height, after all? It's minor, so hard to notice, but it does indeed look like it. I certainly approve of this! :thumbsup:

No, they don't. Or at least, shouldn't. (It's possible I may have implemented this under the initial assumption the suggestion would be accepted, then forgotten to remove it later. If this is the case, expect it to be removed at some point between now and V12.9.0-RC1.)
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: WillLem on March 23, 2020, 04:23:56 AM
My first Jumper level :)

Made two levels myself, just experimenting a bit with some simple jumper applications.

I LP'd these levels just now, but the streaming app stopped working halfway through so I lost the game footage! :'(

Anyone know of a decent screen capture software that's free, easy to use and works? I'm using OBS studio which normally works for short captures but I can't seem to get it to reliably work for longer streams.

Anyway, here are my replays for these levels, at least. The Amazing Leap was really hard, I was determined to get it for the LP though so managed to eventually find a solution!
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: Armani on March 23, 2020, 04:46:26 AM
Solved Proxima and Direcrow's levels ;)
Nice tutorial level for jumper proxima :thumbsup:

I like The Chosen One and I think it's a nice  introduction level for jumper-climber interaction.
And it seems like I backrouted The Amazing Leap.
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: Armani on March 23, 2020, 05:06:51 AM
And here's my first jumper level!

Title : Lems are Having Fun
Difficulty : 1.5/5
Tileset : Orig Brick

Save Requirement : 5/5
Skillset : 7jumper 1shimmier 5climber 1digger
(https://i.imgur.com/4V8OD77.png)

I have some level ideas using jumper, but cloning the jumper is not implemented yet :(
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: DireKrow on March 23, 2020, 05:38:16 AM
I fixed or mitigated the backroutes in mine, and I also played the others so far~

Both fun and good looking. Lems are Having Fun looks especially great. Both are nice jumper tutorials.

Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: Strato Incendus on March 23, 2020, 09:14:52 AM
Quote
No, they don't. Or at least, shouldn't. (It's possible I may have implemented this under the initial assumption the suggestion would be accepted, then forgotten to remove it later. If this is the case, expect it to be removed at some point between now and V12.9.0-RC1.)

Okay, good to know! ;) I wasn't planning to use it anytime soon anyway. Have a look at it again and, if there is indeed a difference, just remove it whenever you find the time for it.

That leaves the Jumper-Cloning remaining, because that was definitely agreed upon that it should be possible, and that it should create a Jumper maintaining the trajectory in the opposite direction.

But as I said, this one is probably the most difficult thing to code... ;)
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: Proxima on March 23, 2020, 01:32:27 PM
Anyone know of a decent screen capture software that's free, easy to use and works? I'm using OBS studio which normally works for short captures but I can't seem to get it to reliably work for longer streams.

OBS Studio works fine for me; I've been regularly doing private streams to play games with my girlfriend, for up to 3 or 4 hours. If you're having trouble with it then maybe talk to me in discord and I'll see if I can help.
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: Strato Incendus on March 23, 2020, 02:58:39 PM
Well then, since everyone is sharing their first ideas, here are two new Sports levels intended for Lemmings Hall of Fame! :)

(https://i.imgur.com/Hv2Mkdx.png)
Jump around
(Difficulty: Easy)

(https://i.imgur.com/jlmcwHS.png)
Start me up
(Difficulty: Medium-Hard)
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: Armani on March 23, 2020, 03:40:06 PM
Seems like first one is intended and second one is a minor backroute.
Nice level anyway :D
I think the jumper is overpower like a walker or even more :P
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: Strato Incendus on March 23, 2020, 08:04:41 PM
Thanks a lot, Armani! ;) "Jump around" is completely as intended; "Start me up" is simply a very nice alternative solution that saves quite a few Jumpers, which are basically only there to allow for timing-based approaches.

But most of all, you've once again taught me something new! :thumbsup: I knew it wasn't possible to get through a ceiling by cancelling a Fencer - in contrast to cancelling a Basher, where lemmings can walk up the slope and slip through a thin ceiling. However, I hadn't thought of somebody using that trick on a Fencer when going through a slope in the opposite direction (here: slope leading from the left bottom to the right top, and the Fencer comes from the right bottom) - because then, cancelling the Fencer actually works and still allows lemmings to slip through the ceiling! ;)
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: DireKrow on March 23, 2020, 10:22:24 PM
Solved your levels Strato. Attached my first solution to Jump Around and a 0 jumper solution to Start Me Up. Both (especially the latter) were satisfying puzzles!

Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: WillLem on March 23, 2020, 11:27:38 PM
But most of all, you've once again taught me something new! :thumbsup: I knew it wasn't possible to get through a ceiling by cancelling a Fencer - in contrast to cancelling a Basher, where lemmings can walk up the slope and slip through a thin ceiling. However, I hadn't thought of somebody using that trick on a Fencer when going through a slope in the opposite direction (here: slope leading from the left bottom to the right top, and the Fencer comes from the right bottom) - because then, cancelling the Fencer actually works and still allows lemmings to slip through the ceiling! ;)

I use this trick in
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Have you played Lemminas yet? I think you'd enjoy it!
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: Strato Incendus on March 23, 2020, 11:35:16 PM
Of course I have been playing it, but I haven't yet progressed that far in the game. ;)
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: WillLem on March 23, 2020, 11:40:28 PM
Of course I have been playing it, but I haven't yet progressed that far in the game. ;)

Ah, right... er... spoiler alert! :P :forehead:
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: Strato Incendus on March 23, 2020, 11:59:25 PM
Quote
Solved your levels Strato. Attached my first solution to Jump Around and a 0 jumper solution to Start Me Up. Both (especially the latter) were satisfying puzzles!

Thanks a lot, DireKrow! :) "Jump around" is an alternative solution, saves 1 stacker.

Your solution to "Start me up" has actually been turned into a Gold talisman! :thumbsup: I didn't expect you not to use a single Jumper, when this is the new skill that everyone supposedly wants to toy around with.
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: namida on March 25, 2020, 09:40:26 PM
I've uploaded an update. The only change is that I've fixed the Jumper-Cloner bug, since that one actually gets in the way of evaluating the Jumper's potential.
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: NieSch on March 26, 2020, 09:16:31 PM
Great work on the jumper so far! :thumbsup:

I've been playing with it a bit and made this small level called Jolly Jumpers.

[see next page for latest version]
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: WillLem on March 26, 2020, 11:55:11 PM
Great level, NieSch. The intended solution is brilliant. :thumbsup:

Here's a possible backroute, it's almost the same as what's intended but misses the main trick unfortunately.
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: NieSch on March 27, 2020, 06:50:08 AM
Thanks WillLem! I've attached a V2 (above) that makes your backroute impossible.
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: namida on March 27, 2020, 07:07:04 AM
While I haven't personally looked at any of the levels here, just seeing the feedback and quantity of them makes me fairly sure Jumper is indeed a very good choice. :D
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: WillLem on March 27, 2020, 09:28:58 AM
Here's a video (https://youtu.be/Wt0HqVHJW90) Niesch's Jolly Jumpers! solved at SuperLemming Speed! :lemcat:

OBS Windowed Mode works a treat - thanks Proxima for helping me with that. :thumbsup:

(https://i.imgur.com/ARTqzoa.png) (https://youtu.be/Wt0HqVHJW90)
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: NieSch on March 27, 2020, 10:04:50 AM
That's a nice vid! :)

I changed the level a bit to V3 V4.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I don't know if this is possible or desirable, but maybe the physics of the jumper/climber can be changed a few pixels to make this move less precise?
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: ccexplore on March 27, 2020, 10:14:36 AM
Ok, I'll commend WillLem for making the wall jumps at double speed without pausing. 8-) It might actually be slightly harder than executing something similar in some regular action games, since in regular action games you don't have to also move the mouse to follow where the lemming goes.
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: namida on March 30, 2020, 11:49:54 PM
Uploaded another update.

This update adds a skill shadow for the Jumper. This shadow extends to covering, where applicable, the lemming falling, climbing, hoisting, floating or gliding after ending his jump.
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: DireKrow on March 31, 2020, 01:16:11 AM
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/f2v6tqtqxm5wakk/bug01.png?dl=1)

Jumper skill shadow shows incorrect path in this situation. Actually jumping here causes the following non-fatal error:

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ch8oiir29itnz7n/bug02.png?dl=1)

EDIT: In-case it helps, this seems to happen when you jump into any wall without climb. However, every 3rd pixel seems safe. For example, the first position below errors, but then allowing the lemming to walk a couple of pixels results in a safe position:

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/6aqq5sgdwqiesxm/bug03.PNG?dl=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/udlv39tolkn271n/bug04.PNG?dl=1)
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: Strato Incendus on March 31, 2020, 10:07:34 AM
Thanks for pointing this out; I think I'll wait with updating until this is fixed, then, because for level building it is more vital to avoid these types of crashes than to have a skill shadow.

Also, thanks for using my Soviet lemming sprites! ;) :thumbsup:
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: namida on March 31, 2020, 11:07:45 PM
Uploaded an update that fixes both the shadow bug and the error message.
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: NieSch on April 01, 2020, 08:02:37 AM
I got the latest update but I'm also getting this (slightly different) error when a lemming jump/climbs onto an edge.
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: Strato Incendus on April 05, 2020, 01:52:35 PM
I haven't updated yet precisely because I want to avoid such ingame errors, but so far, Jumpers don't seem to interact with one-way fields - when jumping towards a one-way field with force in the opposite direction, Jumpers just go right through them without turning around.

This is surprising, because when doing the same with Blockers, the Jumper turns as expected. ???
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: namida on April 05, 2020, 08:51:21 PM
Both of the above issues should be fixed in the update uploaded just now. :)
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: NieSch on April 07, 2020, 07:25:20 AM
:thumbsup:

V4 of "Jolly Jumpers". Difficulty: hard.

(https://i.imgur.com/1pp5WuB.png)
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: WillLem on April 11, 2020, 03:11:29 PM
Finally got around to making my first jumper level!

I get the error "Invalid pointer operation." when trying to load it; I'm using a custom style, wonder if that has anything to do with it...?

(https://i.imgur.com/0kfKyoB.png)
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: namida on April 11, 2020, 08:09:50 PM
I wouldn't think a custom style alone would break it. If you send the NXLV file and the style (if it's not your existing one) over, I'm happy to take a look and try to figure it out - though no promises on the "when" (in the sense of "it might be in a few days rather than today", not in the sense of "I might get back to you in a month").
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: WillLem on April 12, 2020, 01:58:23 AM
(in the sense of "it might be in a few days rather than today", not in the sense of "I might get back to you in a month").

:crylaugh:

Brillsies, here you go. Thanks for taking a look!

(Updated level and style in this post (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4718.msg81441#msg81441))
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: namida on April 12, 2020, 10:27:50 PM
You're getting that error because your custom lemming sprites in that style lack a Jumper sprite. Although there's still a bug here: NL should be falling back to the default lemmings and giving a warning; not crashing.

(EDIT: It looks like this might be what it would actually do in a release build. Because this is an experimental build, it tends to report certain errors that the release builds wouldn't - but if you click through them, it should still eventually load the default sprites.)
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: WillLem on April 13, 2020, 01:24:57 AM
You're getting that error because your custom lemming sprites in that style lack a Jumper sprite.

Ah, yes - that makes sense.

However, I still get the error even if I set the level's theme to one of the defaults...

EDIT: Hmm, wierldy, I don't seem to have default jumper sprites either!


EDIT 2: I re-added the jumper sprites from the V5 zip and the level works now! :thumbsup:

For best results, play the level in hi-res mode.
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: Strato Incendus on April 13, 2020, 08:50:05 AM
Fun fact: When you have Glider-Climbers jump towards a wall, they will only hold on to it if they hit the wall before they'vr reached the top of the curve - because that's where they get out their Glider sail, and once they're a Glider, they bounce off the wall instead of holding on to it.

This is of course completely consistent with how both skills behave, so this shouldn't be changed. It's just something you have to keep in mind. I only noticed this due to the skill shadow looking a little weird when compared to a regular Jumper or Climber-Jumper. ;)
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: Armani on April 15, 2020, 06:48:09 AM
@NieSch
Found a backroute. ;P
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: NieSch on April 15, 2020, 07:44:29 AM
Wow, that's a brilliant backroute. :)

This V5 fixes it. But can you find another one? (Probably yes.:P)

(https://imgur.com/JO91oih.png)

I've also attached a second level that features the (experimental) jumper. Level name: Thin Blue Lines. Difficulty: medium.

(https://imgur.com/mohdUPn.png)
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: namida on April 15, 2020, 06:58:42 PM
To save me going through the whole topic again: Is anyone aware of any remaining bugs / etc that need attention?
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: NieSch on April 15, 2020, 08:08:20 PM
No problems here.
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: Strato Incendus on April 15, 2020, 08:11:50 PM
Quote from: namida
To save me going through the whole topic again: Is anyone aware of any remaining bugs / etc that need attention?

Yes, in the editor, some pickup skills are now suddenly displayed with the lemming performing the skill above the circle (e.g. the Swimmer). Some are perfectly within the circle (e.g. the Walker). Others are completely invisible, the circle seems empty (e.g. the Blocker or Builder).

In the player, though, everything seems fine. :)
Title: Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
Post by: Armani on April 20, 2020, 07:57:03 AM
Made two more jumper levels today :thumbsup:

(https://i.imgur.com/628tOS1.png)

Title : Look Before You Jump
Difficulty : 3.5/5
Tileset : Ohno Rock

Save Requirement : 8/8
Skillset : 4jumper 4shimmier 4climber 1floater 3platformer 2miner

(https://i.imgur.com/LtQjXQd.png)

Title : The Synthetic Cubists
Difficulty : 4/5
Tileset : Orig Marble

Save Requirement : 19/20
Skillset : 1jumper 3shimmier 1bomber 1blocker 2platformer 1builder 1miner 1digger

Both levels feature jumper and shimmier. ;)