Author Topic: Lemmings Redux  (Read 10139 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 1623
  • #SaveTheGrenader
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #150 on: December 19, 2020, 05:24:23 PM »
Just putting this forward one last time before Redux gets finalised: 30 levels per rank would be a much tidier number.

There are repeat levels in the pack that arguably don't need both versions to be present, and I'm sure that there are other levels which could be seen as filler in the wider context of this pack...

At the moment, Redux comes across as some-parts "compilation pack" and some-parts "NeoLemmix versions of the levels". If it were to stick exclusively to the latter, and shed any notions of it being a "best of" compilation, then it could probably be neatened up to fewer levels per rank, or even fewer ranks in total, and would ultimately be a much better offering for it.

I would encourage you to take another look at which of these levels truly meet the NeoLemmix Standard. And it needn't even be that difficult; the original versions of these levels are always going to be available, after all.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 11328
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #151 on: December 19, 2020, 05:32:23 PM »
Quote
There are repeat levels in the pack that arguably don't need both versions to be present, and I'm sure that there are other levels which could be seen as filler in the wider context of this pack...

There are only a very, very small number of repeat levels in the pack. From memory - I think the only repeats were "It's Lemmingentry, Watson", "Postcard From Lemmingland", "Come On Over To My Place", "No Added Colors Or Lemmings" and "The Steel Mines Of Kessel"? And if you count it as a repeat, "Just A Minute (Part 2)". The only one of these I would advocate removing is Just A Minute (Part 2), and I probably wouldn't object too much to Come On Over To My Place being removed either (but would vote against removing it - I just wouldn't consider it a huge loss). And to be clear, repeat levels are not considered "un-NeoLemmix-y" - as long as the repeat, in and of itself, wouldn't be considered so, being a repeat doesn't change anything.

Redux should be thought of as somewhere between a remaster and a remake, in a sense, rather than directly as "compilation" or "NeoLemmix versions". And I don't personally feel that any of the remaining levels are hugely out of place as part of this.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4201
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #152 on: December 19, 2020, 06:28:45 PM »
There are only a very, very small number of repeat levels in the pack. From memory - I think the only repeats were "It's Lemmingentry, Watson", "Postcard From Lemmingland", "Come On Over To My Place", "No Added Colors Or Lemmings" and "The Steel Mines Of Kessel"? And if you count it as a repeat, "Just A Minute (Part 2)".

From my memory, it's just those plus "Fall and no life" 1 and 2 (which, like "Just a Minute", has a small terrain difference).

"Just a Minute" and "Fall and no life" are pairs where both levels are puzzles; "It's lemmingentry, Watson", "Postcard from Lemmingland" and "No added colours or lemmings" are repeats of the skill tutorial levels. So the only cases where we kept a puzzle level and its 20-of-all repeat are "You live and Lem" / "The Steel Mines of Kessel" and "Let's be careful out there" / "Come on over to my place". And of those, "You live and Lem" has a special reason for inclusion: it's the level that would introduce a new player to triggered traps.

When we refer to Redux as a "best-of", that shouldn't be taken too literally. We don't believe these are the very best 160 levels from the original games. The pack aims to be a way for new players to experience the original levels, and some concessions have to be made to that, starting with the skill tutorial levels, and including some "filler" 20-of-all levels to help the new player get accustomed to the game.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the NeoLemmix Standard", to be honest. All the included levels meet NL standards: they are fair, with no hidden objects or misleading features; time limits are only included where necessary; and so on. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but maybe it would help if you tried to explain what you mean?

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 1623
  • #SaveTheGrenader
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #153 on: December 19, 2020, 11:57:22 PM »
I'm not sure what you mean by "the NeoLemmix Standard", to be honest... I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but maybe it would help if you tried to explain what you mean?

I guess I mean that they're levels which are puzzle-focused rather than execution-focused, plus the other things that you listed.

If you're happy that every single level needs to be in the pack, then great! I just wondered whether some levels could possibly be cut in order to tighten up the group numbers a bit. If not, then - of course, leave it as-is.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4201
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #154 on: December 20, 2020, 01:57:05 PM »
Most of Gentle isn't so much puzzle- focused as it is focused on introducing a variety of level styles and obstacles so that new players can acquire the tools they need to solve puzzles later in the pack. As I've pointed out elsewhere, this is the key difference between the Fun levels, which do this well, albeit not perfectly, and the Tame levels, which do it badly.

In that spirit, here's a quick overview of what a new player would learn from each Gentle level:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In short, although it's easy to spot the two levels that are most filler-ish ("Catch more floaters" and "Doomsday"), I think every level in Gentle earns its place -- in contrast to the original Fun rank, which has some pure filler like "Take good care of my lemmings" and "Nightmare on Lem Street".

And, of course, going down to 30 per rank would require cutting eight puzzle levels from the later ranks. It's not impossible, but it would require more voting -- I would expect very low participation because the community regards Redux as finished and isn't much interested in tweaks any more -- and we would be overturning previous community consensus, which I'm really not comfortable with doing with a low-participation vote.

So, I won't take any action on this as things stand, but if more people chime in to agree with the idea of reducing the number of levels then we could consider it.

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 1623
  • #SaveTheGrenader
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #155 on: December 21, 2020, 09:52:22 AM »
In that spirit, here's a quick overview of what a new player would learn from each Gentle level:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Thanks for taking the time to create this list, it's interesting to see why each level was specifically chosen.

Offline chrisleec728

  • Posts: 68
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #156 on: January 07, 2021, 02:29:25 PM »
Hey, how are the release plans coming along? Everything okay?

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1666
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #157 on: January 07, 2021, 04:22:35 PM »
Well, we've just had the November update which included the final selection of levels. I think the talisman discussion is pretty much finalised, although the download on this post could clash with what talismans Proxima wants to include let alone fix any remaining bugs. I'm not sure if he's seen that post or not.

Other than that, everything seems fine. Thanks for asking.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline chrisleec728

  • Posts: 68
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #158 on: January 07, 2021, 06:07:39 PM »
Ok cool. I just thought he said it would be released around Christmas so I was mildly concerned.

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1666
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #159 on: January 10, 2021, 08:06:53 AM »
Just saw these new posts today.

Well, my "Christmas Period" is over. So I had included the remaining talismans into the game, introduced in the attachment below. BTW this is my first experience of adding Talismans to levels, so well done me. :thumbsup: Here are my first two thoughts, both being rather complex.

As the talismans in Redux are unnamed, it's very hard to check whether the talisman is actually included or not once you put it in into the level. Maybe the editor could produce an automated title like "Talisman 1" or for a more specific requirement: "Save Requirement: 30" or something similar to these.

For "save max" talismans, there is currently no specified limit on Lemmings saved. (I think it goes up to 200) The limit should match the total number of lemmings available (And to expand on this, Normal & Neutral Lemmings) At the moment I had to find the "Globals" tab to check.

Still, I hope all the talismans are added in correctly for the final total of 8/20/16. If not, I've collaborated several different posts into a little document hidden in spoiler tags. It seems to bring the total number to 46 however with a split of 9/20/17. That means one gold and one bronze would have to go for a round number. I can't remember which ones needed deleting though, unless I made a mistake somewhere...

Document (click to show/hide)

Also included is a fix with the water for "Have a nice day", adding three long water objects to reduce the file's size but more importantly, the noticeable gap between the water and the wall is sealed properly. 8-) The update for Lunatic 11 "Fix the road, quick" also includes a better X Screen Start position for high res players.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4201
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #160 on: January 18, 2021, 03:43:40 PM »
The update for Lunatic 11 "Fix the road, quick" also includes a better X Screen Start position for high res players.

It's not directly to do with high-res. With the screen start set to X=160 as it was, the initial view will only stretch to the left edge if your window is at least (320 x zoom level) wide.

I don't know what your zoom level and window size is, but not all high-res users will have this issue, whereas some low-res users will.

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1666
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #161 on: January 18, 2021, 09:52:23 PM »
Mine is currently 3x zoom on windowed mode.

Also, I don't really have any issues, the changes were to find some kind of middle ground no matter if people use high or low res. I don't understand why some low-res users could potentially see problems with it?
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4201
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #162 on: January 18, 2021, 09:59:02 PM »
Users have different screen sizes. Users of windowed mode can give the window any size they want.

The screen start positions are configured to be the best possible if the window size (adjusted for zoom level) is 320 x 200, but the user's actual window size could be literally anything. And if you are using 3x zoom and you switch to high-res without changing your window size, then of course it's going to look wonky -- 3 is odd, so NL will be forced to jump to a zoom size that isn't ideal for your chosen window size. We have to expect that users who want to use high-res mode will choose a window size that works for that.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 10:04:06 PM by Proxima »

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4201
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #163 on: January 19, 2021, 08:16:51 PM »
Okay, I've finally done this 8-) I've gone through the pack to add the new talismans and make final adjustments. If I didn't miss anything that needs doing, this could be the final update to this pack. (The new pack is attached to the opening post of the topic.)

Changelog (click to show/hide)

Offline chrisleec728

  • Posts: 68
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #164 on: January 19, 2021, 09:31:53 PM »
Awesome. Sorry if I made anyone feel pressured by my last post (especially Proxima), by the way; there was really no rush.

Anyway, my biggest problem now is that some of the talisman descriptions on my version are cut off due to being overly long. Do I have to update NeoLemmix to fix this?