Author Topic: Lemmings Redux [Easy-Medium]  (Read 23377 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4422
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #165 on: January 19, 2021, 09:38:16 PM »
Yes, I strongly recommend you update to 12.10 as it has so many quality-of-life and aesthetic improvements! :thumbsup:

In 12.10, talisman requirements are no longer written on the preview screen. Instead, the preview screen has talisman icons that can be clicked to display the requirements in a pop-up window. Also, it automatically detects certain special cases and will, for example, display "Save 20/20 using only builders" rather than "...using 0 climbers, 0 floaters, 0 bombers...."

Offline chrisleec728

  • Posts: 77
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #166 on: January 20, 2021, 09:55:39 PM »
Thanks, looks awesome! I think I noticed a problem though: when I downloaded the latest update I think it still downloaded an earlier version of Redux with it. After some experimentation I noticed that when I downloaded Redux manually it listed 44 talismans, but when I did it the automatic way it only listed 36. If I'm reading through the thread correctly I believe 44 is what you ended up with, correct?

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4422
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #167 on: January 20, 2021, 10:07:56 PM »
Yes, it sounds like the automatic download hasn't been updated with the latest version yet.

[EDIT: Now it has! :thumbsup:]
« Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 05:43:20 AM by Proxima »

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4422
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #168 on: February 02, 2021, 02:23:51 AM »
Well, I had hoped that the January 19 update would be the final version of Lemmings Redux, but it was not to be.

Firstly, I've discovered that the level "Quest for Kieran" contained serious terrain errors. I've attached a fixed version to this post, and will be including it in the next update. Since another update is required, I felt I should take another look round to see if there is anything else remaining that should be fixed or improved. [EDIT: Removed attachment; the fixed level is now in the main Redux zip.]

As WillLem and I have been doing the "Don't turn around" challenge, we've noticed that Redux is very inconsistent in terms of when trapdoors have been set to left-facing. I would like to make these consistent, and my suggestion is doing this by a set of rules:

* If the exit is to the right of the trapdoor, it should remain right-facing, except maybe in special cases like "And then there were four" where the lemmings are forced to start by going away from the exit.
* If the exit is to the left of the trapdoor and it requires the use of skills to turn around the lemmings, it should remain right-facing. Obvious examples: Tailor-made for blockers; Turn around, young lemmings; Upside-down world.
* If the exit is to the left of the trapdoor and it doesn't require any skills to turn around the lemmings, there may still be some special cases where it's better for the trapdoor to be right-facing (e.g. The Boiler Room, where the right-facing trapdoor affords more space for constructing a holding area), but in general, these should become left-facing.

A couple of examples of levels where Redux currently has a right-facing trapdoor and I feel it should become left-facing: Snuggle up to a lemming; Haunted botanical garden (right trapdoor); Don't leave any lemmings.

Alternatively, we could set all trapdoors (back) to right-facing. Whichever we do, I'd like to do it consistently throughout the pack.

What are other people's feelings on this?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 10:03:12 PM by Proxima »

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12071
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #169 on: February 02, 2021, 02:30:11 AM »
Agree with changing in general, though I do disagree with one particular example you've given - "Don't leave any lemmings", I think it should remain right-facing on this one. The "natural" route would be to go right first, then come back to the left and go under.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2032
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #170 on: February 02, 2021, 02:39:53 AM »
For the purposes of this post, I when I say flipped/unflipped, it's relative to the original versions of the levels, i.e. where all entrances are right facing.

I'd simplify the rule down to this:

If lemmings entering the level turn around on their own such that a flipped entrance just gets them where they'd end up going faster, they should be flipped (generally this will flip towards the exit, but this is one rule that also fits cases like "And then there were four" without making such levels a special exception).

If an action is required to turn the lemmings around, it should be considered part of the puzzle and thus should remain unflipped.

For levels that would become flipped under the previous rules, but may benefit from remaining unflipped (e.g. the Boiler Room example given by Proxima): Make a list of such levels, then use that to make decisions about how it should be handled. Ideally we'd take the same action on all of these levels, but at the very least we should break it down into subcategories of different cases and then handle each subcategory the same, instead of making decisions about individual levels one-by-one.

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #171 on: February 02, 2021, 06:18:35 AM »
Agree with changing in general, though I do disagree with one particular example you've given - "Don't leave any lemmings", I think it should remain right-facing on this one. The "natural" route would be to go right first, then come back to the left and go under.

Still firmly in agreement with this one. Here was what I wrote a while ago whilst we were sorting out what levels should be included.

..."Don't leave any Lemmings" is supposed to be a right-entrance level despite the right-left layout. It makes more sense to bomb the right side of the starting platform to give the lemmings a safer drop.


Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #172 on: February 05, 2021, 07:49:19 AM »
Hi. I have a problem with the update regarding the graphic sets for special levels.

For all the original special levels, all the objects are missing. I tried the updater but that hasn't worked either. Therefore I can't play "A Beast of a Level", "Menacing", "What an Awesome level" and "A BeastII of a level" The Pieces affected are:
* window_beastii
* exit_beastii
* window_beast
* exit_beast
* window_menacing
* exit_menacing
* window_awesome
* exit_awesome

I'm currently in the middle of a challenge until I encountered this problem. Please either add these objects in, or revert back to the original so I can resume my challenge. Thanks.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4422
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #173 on: February 05, 2021, 12:14:00 PM »
The objects are in the "special" style, which comes with NL.

[EDIT: It turns out these objects were not included in the "special" style by default and had gotten into my local copy of the style somehow. However, I've checked with namida and they are included with the "special" style from 12.11 onwards, so there's no problem any more with Redux using them.]
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 08:16:20 PM by Proxima »

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #174 on: February 05, 2021, 01:15:26 PM »
Thanks! :thumbsup: The levels are working again.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4422
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #175 on: February 09, 2021, 10:00:57 PM »
I have updated the Redux zip in the opening post:

* Gentle 27 "Quest for Kieran" fixes some terrain errors that had gone unnoticed for a long time.
* The zip no longer includes the "smstitle" music for Lunatic 16 "SEGA Four", since this is now included by default in the NL installation.

I need to make a final decision about the flipped hatches (mentioned a few posts up). I'll get onto this as quickly as I can; I am rather busy with another NeoLemmix project at the moment, which I'm hoping to get ready in time for the anniversary on 14 February.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4422
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #176 on: February 19, 2021, 09:39:42 PM »
I'd like to get moving on the flipped hatches decisions, since this is almost the very last thing left to decide. Dullstar's rule of thumb is a good starting-point, so I had a look through the pack to see which levels fall under it. Unfortunately it looks like there are more than I thought! Some of these are very, very clear cases where some other consideration means we should keep the hatches right-facing, but as usual, I want to make decisions on the basis of consensus and not just my own feeling, so they are on my list anyway.

The full list... (click to show/hide)

I would be really grateful if anyone would take the time to go through the above list and give second opinions, even on the ones I have marked "unproblematic" -- I am not infallible!

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #177 on: February 20, 2021, 11:33:57 AM »
OK, submitted my responses. All other levels I'm in agreement with, but Manic 18 is the only unproblematic one that I disagree with, as I will explain below.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12071
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #178 on: February 20, 2021, 06:06:54 PM »
Here's my feedback on the other. Assume any I don't mention here are either "I agree with you" or "No preference", let me know if there's any you'd like to know which of these it was. Note that the ones I comment on might not be "I disagree" but just "I have something to add to the reasoning".

Quote
G27 "Quest for Kieran" -- Currently flipped. Unflipping it would allow delaying the crowd by mining on the starting platform instead of the large mound, which was possible on the original, so maybe flip back for that reason?
This is a pretty trivial difference from doing it on the mound, and I think overall the level feels nicer with them going left.

Quote
Q6 "Just a Quicky" -- Feels weird to flip when the trapdoor is so close to the terrain just to its left. What does anyone else think?
Do not flip. If flipped, they will not be contained, as they land just on the barrier of the holding area. (Much like what you mention for Q8.)

Quote
Q17 "Mr Lemmy Lives Next Door" -- same as Q9, flipping the trapdoor would be a hint, so leave.
Not to mention that there are solutions that send a climber to the right first. :)

Quote
Z6 "Compression Method 1" (all trapdoors) -- Leave unflipped because flipping would be a hint?
Disagree with reasoning, but ultimately agree with decision. It is obvious you have to go left here - there is a fatal fall, off steel (can't reduce the fall) with no floaters or builders (can't survive / avoid it), to the right. However, going right gives options relating to using the first trapdoor to free the second (or to free all the others in some cases), and from there I think for this level it would look weird to not have all four facing the same way.

Quote
Z8 "Lemmy in the cold, cold ground" (right trapdoor) -- Leave unflipped because the player may want to bash/mine rightwards.
Also because unflipped has them actually going towards the exit. :P

Quote
M24 "The race against cliches" -- A weird case as the intended solution involves lemmings going both ways. Exit is on the far left. I'm not sure how I feel about this one.
The exit is to the left, and most lemmings go left (though not necesserially right away). I get the feeling that, if DOS mechanics were "always spawn facing left" instead, we'd think that changing it to right-facing is a hint on this one. I think all things considered, left remains the right direction to spawn here, though I'll definitely agree that it's a closer call than most.

Quote
L8 "Lemming about town" -- Exit is on the right but you need to climb left. Leave?
Agree, leave unflipped.

Quote
L16 "SEGA Four" -- Unproblematic.
I have a slight feeling that this one should remain unflipped, but can't quite put my finger on why.

Quote
L17 "Creature Discomforts" (right trapdoor) -- Some solutions involve the right-side lemmings climbing the far right wall. Leave for that reason?
As far as I can tell, you'd usually need to block near the entrance anyway, as you don't send all of them up right away? If so, I see no problem with flipping it.

Quote
L22 "Hello John! Got a New Lemming?" (right trapdoor) -- Flipping the right trapdoor would hint that a climber from this trapdoor should be sent left (I think it's actually possible to use a climber from either trapdoor?). Leave, especially as the right trapdoor's exit is to the right.
While either way around makes sense, I kind of feel that the two entrances on this level should have opposite directions to each other. That is - either both go towards the direction they send a climber, or both go towards their exit.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4422
    • View Profile
Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #179 on: February 20, 2021, 07:52:23 PM »
Thank you both for the quick feedback. (WillLem also gave feedback via discord.) It seems we're in agreement about most levels, so I'm happy to sign off on those, and that leaves a much shorter list still under consideration for anyone else who wants to chime in. If no-one else does, I'll come back to this and make final decisions within a week or so.

Resolved (click to show/hide)

Still under consideration (click to show/hide)

Namida, could you say something more about the "still under consideration" ones you didn't mention? These are Q1, Q21, Q22, Q23 and M18.