Author Topic: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic  (Read 13592 times)

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Offline WillLem

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[DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« on: February 06, 2023, 05:54:14 PM »
SuperLemmix is a new fork of NeoLemmix. The following is a list of proposals which I am going to at least try to implement, with help :):

:lemming: Re-introduce timed bombers as a new skill: the Timebomber!

:lemming: Re-inroduce Superlemming mode!

:lemming: Re-introduce the Grenader skill

:lemming: Re-introduce Direct Drop (and other exiting mechanics!)

:lemming: New skill panel

:lemming: Modify the existing skills

:lemming: Modify some of the water objects

:lemming: New UI graphics (logo, menu, pre-screens etc)

:lemming: Introduce a "Classic Mode" which disables all modern player-assist features

:lemming: Include all of the fully restored original DMA level packs

:lemming: Create and maintain a SuperLemmix Welcome Pack

:lemming: Editor updates to account for the above

And, some absolute dreamland features:

:lemming: Online multiplayer mode (yes, I'm laughing at myself as I type this).

:lemming: "Typed" lemmings and matching exits which only allow lemmings of that type (I'd probably start by allowing mixing of Lemmings and Lemminas, and having exits specific to each. I'm a million miles away from being able to actually do this, though!) - this will likely need to happen in the event of a multiplayer mode anyway.

And, some other stuff I can't think of right now but that I've likely already created topics for somewhere on the Forums. I'll add them back to this list if I care enough about the ideas at this point.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2023, 03:29:58 PM by WillLem »

Offline Silken Healer

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2023, 03:18:57 AM »
For the sake of simplicity, let's keep this topic as a general discussion of the skills (or, mods - by all means consolidate it into one of the existing skills discussion topics, such as this one), and keep any discussion regarding a possible fork of NeoLemmix to this one.

So are the timed bombers to be discussed in this thread from now on? If so, I recommend locking the old thread and redirect it to this one.

:lemming: Online multiplayer mode (yes, I'm laughing at myself as I type this).

I'd say don't be harsh on yourself and believe in yourself but, also, just get the basics i.e. timed bombers down first and then build on top of that.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2023, 05:19:32 PM »
So are the timed bombers to be discussed in this thread from now on? If so, I recommend locking the old thread and redirect it to this one.

Good idea, done.

just get the basics i.e. timed bombers down first and then build on top of that.

Thanks. Just had a first look at the NL source today, and I've created a new BitBucket repository for the proposed SuperLemmix fork. Scary, but I'm looking forward to understanding what everything is.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2023, 05:32:54 PM »
Apologies for the triple-post. Just wanting to make a note of how I'm likely to go forward with this.

I'd ideally like to remove the Fencer skill, since the Laserer is a much better way of creating upward-diagonal tunnels. So that existing content featuring Fencers could potentially be redesigned to account for this, I'd also extend the range of the Laserer to infinity. This reduces the number of skills to 20. I'd then add in the Grenader, and Timed Bombers as a separate skill, bringing the total to 22.

First order of business is to see if I can get all 22 skills displayed in the panel at once, by doubling up the height. This seems a relatively simple enough task to get myself started; if I can manage to do it, then it's worth me putting in the time and effort to start looking at the skills themselves. Since all I'd be doing is tweaking existing skills or re-adding those for which the code already exists somewhere, I feel it's just about within my grasp. But, we'll see.

...

I am going to need help with this, I can't deny it. If anyone is happy to collaborate and offer support, please do get in touch. We can get on the video chat in Discord and have a look at things together.

Offline Silken Healer

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2023, 05:57:26 PM »
While your making this fork, would you also consider adding a few other suggestions to this fork which have been rejected and 1. Either you/lots of other people really wanted it or 2. It was rejected because of the "philosophy of NeoLemmix" (like timed bombers) which wouldn't apply here?

Offline Silken Healer

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2023, 05:50:30 PM »
I've thought about it, and I've come round to your "level breakage will have to be accepted" philosophy a bit more. If so, then you've already thought everything through. And as for the water, I'd say that it's technically just water with a skin on but it's up to you

Online kaywhyn

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2023, 05:01:42 AM »
I'm completely on board with not worrying about breaking existing content, especially as if this fork of NL does come to fruition then it would have its own thread under NL and levels/level packs could be tagged with the appropriate engine it's compatible with or posted in the correct topic.

Something that you might have already considered as a future to-do, but just to be sure, and that is seeing how you started a topic on a potential Lemmicks 2 pack, how about bringing back some of the culled gimmicks? Not all of them of course, just some so that the zombie isn't the only one in the engine. I would most certainly want to see Karoshi in New Formats, as I really liked that one when I played through Lemmicks a while back, and it seems to be quite popular among many here. This would be great for additional challenges too!

Of course, you get to have your lovely Superlemming and Frenzy gimmicks too :P This would certainly provide even more motivation to get the actual Lemmicks 2 level pack going in the making, as well as make it easier to work on it since you won't have to dig up a really old level editor. Just imagine, gimmicks existing in New Formats ;) Of course, there's also the problems with how some of them would work with the skills that got added after the culls and transition to Old/New Formats, but that can be discussed at a later time.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2023, 12:19:27 AM »
I would most certainly want to see Karoshi in New Formats

I probably wouldn't implement this as a gimmick, instead I'd more likely go along the lines of making it so that any level can have a save requirement of 0, and killing all lemmings in any way other than using the nuke satisfies this requirement. I'm not sure exactly how it would work in code, but that's probably how I'd want Karoshi to be implemented, rather than as an outright gimmick. I've decided against adding this feature in SuperLemmix, but may reconsider.

Of course, you get to have your lovely Superlemming and Frenzy gimmicks too :P

Wow, good shout. I think Superlemming is almost such a given that I forgot to even think about it! That one's going in the OP list immediately ;P

Only thing is, I'm not sure entirely how NeoLemmix (or Lemmix/DOS, for that matter) handles Superlemming mode. If it does so by engaging the fast-forward button, for example, then this may play out differently depending on the size of the level. I've noticed that the fast-forward speed varies quite widely on my computer, and my laptop is by no means a slouch.

I'd probably want to try and find a way to make it so it's the same speed regardless of what computer you run it on, and at this point I have no clue how this would even be approached. "if Superlemming=true, enable fast-forward" is relatively simple, whereas dealing with frame rates directly I can imagine will be much more difficult.

It'll happen though, for sure! :)



Edit Simon: I've split the performance concerns into
Performance During Fast-Forward.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2023, 02:37:44 AM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2023, 10:37:46 PM »
Apologies for the multiple-posts. It doesn't seem worth having more that one topic for this yet, since I have no idea how far I'm going to get with it. I do want to keep posts for each feature as separate as possible though, so I've indexed them in the OP for easy reference.

All discussion of all features can continue in this topic, of course. Refer to the OP if you'd like to find out what's going on with a particular feature. I'll likely concentrate on just two or three for the first release, and they'll most likely be the ones which I find easiest to implement!

I really do want to do this though, so I will go ahead and aim for an initial "very experimental beta" version to be released sometime in the spring, even if it's only one with a few minor tweaks.

Thanks for showing an interest so far, those who've posted. I'll very likely need a lot of help with this initially, but I'm looking forward to getting stuck in and learning everything I need to learn as I go along :lemcat: 8-)

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2023, 03:00:21 AM »
A new panel mockup. Much happier with this one!

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2023, 11:37:00 AM »
Some ideas for modifying the existing skills. Rather than removing the less-popular ones (which, by the looks of it, is itself no easy task!), perhaps they could be made slightly more interesting...?

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2023, 06:58:30 AM »
Done a lot of work on this today, check the various posts for updates on where I'm up to with each feature.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2023, 12:18:18 AM »
Potential names for this engine:

SuperLemmix

It's the first idea, and it occurred very naturally. The engine will actually be a "Super" version of Lemmix (as opposed to NeoLemmix), since it will have more features than Lemmix but also be retro-inspired. In some ways, it will end up having less features than NeoLemmix, or at least less emphasis on the style on gameplay which NeoLemmix affords.

Superlemming mode will be making a comeback as well, and will be a prominent feature, no doubt. So, the name of the engine being close to this also seems appropriate.

However, since "SuperLemmix" is so close to "SuperLemmini" (and indeed "Superlemming"), there is some potential for confusion. I'm not too concerned about this, but just wanted to float some other ideas in the meantime:

Possible alternative names, for consideration:

RetroLemmix

I like this because it makes a statement about what the engine is about: bringing some of the classic gameplay back to the game of lemmings. The features will be geared towards this goal, and may even take over completely under a name like "RetroLemmix".

Then again, it doesn't exactly future-proof it.

Lemmiga

Pretty obvious what the inspiration is here. Reasons for it are similar to those for RetroLemmix. I'll also be aiming to line the engine up a bit more with the Amiga-style look and feel.

Lemoshi

This idea came up a while ago when I was tinkering with SuperLemmini. I still like the idea, but perhaps not as much as the other suggestions.



Feel free to add some suggestions if you have any ideas!

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2023, 04:57:38 PM »
I've just discovered this thread. Thank you for reincorporating the timed bombers! :thumbsup:

Suggestions for the engine:

Lemmix Beyond
Modern Lemmix
Cool Lemmix
Snazzy Lemmix
Lemmix Boost

Sorry if I'm late for giving ideas about the timed thing, but, have you considered having both timed and untimed bombers as skills, and thus ending this rift?

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2023, 09:45:13 PM »
Some thoughts:

If you're going to do this, it's quite clear that you don't really intend on following the existing NeoLemmix philosophy in regards to the player assist mechanics, and I'd have to question if it makes sense to appease both crowds with this engine. Perhaps fully embrace this engine's difference in philosophy and then design a cohesive experience around that. If we still want to maintain the existing philosophy, there's no reason we can't make divergent forks.

As part of this, rather than allowing levels to disable player assist features, I think it would be better for you to decide which player assist features this engine should keep. As a general rule, I'd suggest definitely keeping the player assist features that multiplayer Lix allows you to use:
 - Directional Select. It only breaks one official level, and that one level has a trivial solution and is at worst a 1 in 8 chance to solve correctly if you don't even try to get the timing right. It prevents you from having to redo a level simply because, for example, you had to pick a lemming out of a crowd and you got unlucky (in practice, there's no RNG going on, but the way small differences can affect the exact alignment of lemmings may as well make it RNG). Additionally, a few of the official ports support it.
 - Splat Ruler. Not even remotely game breaking even on levels with trivial solutions that are just finicky to pull off.

In addition, I recommend keeping Clear Physics Mode just because let's be honest hidden objects suck and it doesn't actually make fair levels easier.

The rest I'll refrain from commenting on for the time being. Though I do hope you at least keep pausing with a hotkey even if you don't keep assign while paused. There's precedent, lots of the official ports support it.

Why disable auto screen start? That's not a player assist feature, that's a designer assist feature. You leave auto screen start on and it chooses a sensible starting position for you, and then you override it in the editor if you don't like what it chose.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2023, 01:19:24 AM »
Thanks for your comment Dullstar. I've thought about going "full retro" with it, but tbh that would actually be way more work than you'd think for very little (if any) gain. NeoLemmix's coding is already so far down the "modern" route than it would mean stripping out enormous chunks of code and basically just ending up with "Lemmix, but a bit better" which doesn't seem worth my time and effort tbh.

I think maybe I've conveyed the wrong idea about what I'm going for here, so I'll clarify.

I'd have to question if it makes sense to appease both crowds with this engine

I'd say it definitely does. I don't want to alienate half of the possible user base for the sake of a few controversial features.

Far better to allow the player more customisability over their own personal experience (which is what this engine is really about, beneath the ostensible "Classic" or "Retro" aesthetics.) I'd like the player to be able to cherry pick which of the assists they'd like and tailor it to their own preferences, or simply hit the "Classic Mode" button, which will automatically disable everything but the bare basics.

Perhaps fully embrace this engine's difference in philosophy and then design a cohesive experience around that

Like I said, the philosophy is less about forcing players to play a certain way and more about giving them the choice. It seems a waste of time to make what will essentially just be another Lemmini. We all know that this engine is highly unpopular. It's always been my belief that the best and most-used engine on the Forums should offer the player as many options as possible, rather than enforce any sort of "player philosophy".

If anything, SuperLemmix is about doing away with that type of thing altogether, in a perhaps wayward but valiant attempt to cater to everyone.

With that said, I'll definitely take on board your comments regarding the features themselves, in particular:

As part of this, rather than allowing levels to disable player assist features, I think it would be better for you to decide which player assist features this engine should keep.

It will keep all of them, and give the player the choice of which ones they want to use. NeoLemmix already does this to some extent anyway via its hotkey system, SuperLemmix will just make it a bit more overt by making these features toggleable only in the Options menu. (So rather than it being a case of "just don't like it if you don't use it", a player won't just end up toggling it back on mid-game anyway - they'll commit to an experience and go with it).

In addition, I recommend keeping Clear Physics Mode just because let's be honest hidden objects suck and it doesn't actually make fair levels easier

If I was going to go down the route of making this a "full Retro" engine, CPM would be the first thing to go! ;P

As it is, I'll probably be keeping this as a panel button if I can figure out how to make the small circular buttons as seen in the panel mockup. It is a good anti-troll feature, after all.

Though I do hope you at least keep pausing with a hotkey even if you don't keep assign while paused.

Yes, of course. I'll map it to "P" by default since that makes most sense, but of course players will still be able to customise their own hotkeys. Assign-whilst-paused will be toggleable via the Options menu for players that like the challenge.

I likely wouldn't go with "Force Classic Mode" unless level designers wanted it. It's my thinking that most players on here wouldn't like that, so it's probably not something I'll spend too much time pursuing.

Why disable auto screen start?

I meant disable it by default, not remove it altogether. I'd rather have to click it for it to set the start rather than forget that it's been auto-set in the wrong (or a less-than-ideal) place. Maybe it should be a user-side option ("Prefer auto-start" or something like that).
« Last Edit: February 22, 2023, 01:52:40 AM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2023, 06:00:05 PM »
SuperLemmix now has its own board!

You can download the latest version of SuperLemmix here.

Refer to the OP for a quick index to the various topics; feedback/suggestions/ideas are all more than welcome.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2023, 03:05:53 PM by WillLem »

Offline Silken Healer

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2023, 11:25:28 PM »
What would you say if you had to sum up the goal of SuperLemmix in one or a few sentence(s)? Originally in the early days of the fork the goal was just "reintroduce timed bombers so it's possible to play levels 100% classically" but I'm getting a bit confused about what the point is now as it's progressed a lot further in the recent days.

(As I'm reading this back I feel like it comes across as bit rude so sorry this is not meant to come across as negative)

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2023, 04:49:04 PM »
What would you say if you had to sum up the goal of SuperLemmix in one or a few sentence(s)?

Fair question. I'd say that the purpose of it is evolving all the time, but the main goals at this stage are:

1) Make a version of NL which includes as many of the features that I've always wanted as possible, and hopefully other people will enjoy it as well.
2) Learn as much as I can about program development and maintenance.
3) Have some fun!
« Last Edit: February 27, 2023, 05:49:21 PM by WillLem »

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2023, 06:42:44 PM »
I love the new 2.0 so far! This release probably puts this player in the lead.

A little feedback; I love the new amiga cursor, but I think it would be better if the tip was the active part of the cursor. I sometimes miss what I'm aiming for because it currently needs the center of the hand instead of the fingertip area.

I would like blank red and blue icons in the gfx folder for customization. (like superLemmini)

It would be cool if spears could kill zombies. But this might just be my imagination running wild.

(Looking forward to the hold mouse button frameskip feature too)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2023, 01:27:05 PM by WillLem »
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2023, 10:25:54 PM »
I love the new 2.0 so far! This release probably puts this player in the lead.

Glad you're enjoying it, but it's definitely not a competition! (At least not in my eyes anyway!)

I've come a long way with it, and I won't deny that it's been both surprising and satisfying to achieve so much in such a short space of time, but I couldn't have done it without a lot of help from Namida and Eric (original [Neo]Lemmix devs), who have both been very supportive of what I'm doing (at least from a programming point of view).

Again, though, I'm very glad that my efforts are appreciated, so thanks :lemcat:

I love the new amiga cursor, but I think it would be better if the tip was the active part of the cursor.

Yes, so would I! I'm not entirely sure how to reposition the hotspot, it defaults to center and I didn't want to mess with it in case it affected the actual in-game cursor. I will try again to move it if I can, but failing that I guess a workaround would be to just make the graphic bigger and have empty space to the top and left of the actual image.

I would like blank red and blue icons in the gfx folder for customization. (like superLemmini)

That's how the buttons get their different coloured backgrounds (i.e. by hard-drawing it into the graphic itself). I can revert back to a single colour for all buttons if people prefer? I'd need more feedback on this tbh.

Meanwhile, if you want to customise your own copy, the old blank icons will still work (but, you'll need to hard-draw the backgrounds into those icons yourself). That way, you can have different background colours per-button, if you wish!

It would be cool if spears could kill zombies. But this might just be my imagination running wild.

I like the idea :thumbsup:

But then, why wouldn't Spears also kill regular or neutral lems? This sort of thing could get messy/buggy very fast. If I have time after I've finished all of the other stuff that needs doing, I might have a play with this and see if it's possible/viable, but I'm not promising anything.

(Looking forward to the hold mouse button frameskip feature too)

Yes, me too! I have a feeling that if I can harness that particular feature fully, I can also use it to tidy up the Rewind feature.

I'll also be looking at visual SFX and animated grenades for a future update, both good ideas worth exploring.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2023, 02:58:02 PM by WillLem »

Offline Floyd Brannon

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2023, 09:49:54 PM »
If this is fully compatible with every NeoLemmix level pack I'm going to switch to it. I like it.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2023, 01:19:56 AM by WillLem »

Offline Flopsy

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2023, 11:36:26 PM »
If this is fully compatible with every NeoLemmix level pack I'm going to switch to it. I like it.

Any level in NeoLemmix which uses the Stoner skill in their solution will not be compatible unless the pack has been updated by its author, this skill has been swapped for the Freezer skill.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2023, 01:20:02 AM by WillLem »

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2023, 08:09:25 PM »
I love the pitched sounds for the release rate. It seems too loud to me though, like it shouldn't drown out the music so completely.

Also, there is a purple button.png file in the panel-hr folder. I'd like this in red and blue. I forget what you said previously about this, but I'd like to experiment with the minus, restart, plus and such by using my own art on them. Rather than hunt for the hue.

I think making the amiga cursor with empty space to re-align the point might work good.
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2023, 02:30:21 PM »
If this is fully compatible with every NeoLemmix level pack I'm going to switch to it. I like it.

What Flopsy said. The Freezer basically is a Stoner but with a different shaped mask (that of a slightly rectangular block). I've made it non-Climbable so that it can still block Climbers (and to differentiate it from the Stacker), and tbf in most cases the levels may be portable by simply transposing Stoners to Freezers (the author of the level would need to make that call, though). See this topic for more information about converting packs from NeoLemmix to SuperLemmix.

I love the pitched sounds for the release rate. It seems too loud to me though

Agreed. At present, the -/+ RR buttons use the same sound as assigning a skill to a lemming (which is also the case in the Amiga version, hence the decision to do the same here).

For the next version, I'll copy the RR sound as a separate file, make it quieter, and call it 'changerr' or something like that. That way, the sound becomes customisable and people can substitute it for whatever they wish, but by default it'll still be the same as it is now (except quieter!). Implemented in Commit 8a5c6f54c

Also, there is a purple button.png file in the panel-hr folder. I'd like this in red and blue

I've added these to the graphics sharing topic.

I think making the amiga cursor with empty space to re-align the point might work good.

Yes, it's a good enough workaround - I'll include an improved version in the next update. Implemented in Commit 2fbadfc3a

I'd rather figure out how to move the hotspot so that it can be hard-coded, tbh. But then again, I suppose leaving it in the centre makes it easier for people to create custom cursors for the menu, should anyone wish to do so.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2023, 07:41:33 PM by WillLem »

Offline Floyd Brannon

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2023, 06:23:25 PM »
I would like the feature (forward 1 frame) added.
I like the < key for back step and > for forward if possible. These keys look great as forward/back keys. The > is also the period and is set to slow-mo by default.

The press to hold option is needed too.

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2023, 02:18:34 AM »
I don't know if this is intended or not, but the new release rate tone doesn't play when paused. It seems like it should have sound since it allows you to adjust the rate.
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Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2023, 03:00:29 PM »
I would like the feature (forward 1 frame) added. I like the < key for back step and > for forward if possible

Maybe I've misunderstood, but if not, then SLX (and NL) already has this. You can configure any number of framesteps (-/+ 1, 2, 7, 124, etc) to any key(s) you like by going to Options (F3 from main menu) > General > Configure Hotkeys. Here, you can make the </> buttons into -1/+1 frame respectively, if you wish.

It's fairly self-explanatory once you're in the hotkey dialog, but do let me know if you need any help/instructions with how to do this.

The press to hold option is needed too.

Yes, this one's already on the to-do list, and there's a topic for it here as well. With a bit of help from my friends, this one should happen :)

I don't know if this is intended or not, but the new release rate tone doesn't play when paused. It seems like it should have sound since it allows you to adjust the rate.

Yes, I think so too (it would already be happening if I could find the part of the code that needs to be tweaked in order to make it happen). I did mention this when 2.0 was released, the idea being to see what people think of the sound and whether it should trigger when the game is paused, or not. I think it should, but others may disagree.

I'll count this as another person being in favour of it, and look a bit harder for the relevant code ;P This is now implemented in Commit 078cabf11
« Last Edit: May 11, 2023, 02:56:51 AM by WillLem »

Offline Floyd Brannon

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2023, 04:05:18 AM »
I figured out the assign keys thing.
Having lots of fun.

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2023, 02:59:40 AM »
Done a bunch of things in the past few days:

:tal-gold: Levels no longer end when only zombies remain (due to the new Kill All Zombies talisman being available)
:tal-gold: The nuke animation plays out in full when only zombies remain (previously, it skipped straight to the postview)
:tal-gold: Single-lemming levels no longer end when the lemming dies
:tal-gold: Levels no longer continue after TimeUp when the save requirement has been met
:tal-gold: Gameplay ends when time has run out in Classic Mode
:tal-gold: The RR sound can now be triggered whilst the game is paused!!! (this was one of those things that was ridiculously easy to fix, but the solution took a long time to find)

« Last Edit: May 11, 2023, 03:05:03 AM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2023, 10:06:06 PM »
These things don't warrant their own topic, but are changes that people might want to comment on. The next version of SuperLemmix has the following:

- I'd like to swap F2 and F3 in the menu screen, so that F2 opens the config and F3 opens the level select, whilst keeping the level select card in the centre. Is everyone OK with this? Or, would you prefer to keep the hotkeys the same and swap the card positions instead? If no replies, the hotkeys will be swapped.

- Auto Screen Start is now unchecked by default in the Editor.

Offline Floyd Brannon

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2023, 12:16:31 AM »
Yes. I think swapping the f2 and f3 would look better. I don't like the idea of swapping panels as well because you'd have two green colors together. And I ignore the F keys anyway and click the picture so I wouldn't have even noticed.

I would love to try my hand at making levels. I should look for a good tutorial video.

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2023, 12:49:44 AM »
I think this F-button swap is an improvement.

Back in 2015 I gathered all of the outdated community levels, updated the snowy ones for Super Lemmini and put together a pretty cool winter pack with 4 ranks and 16 levels per rank. Called "The Blizzard of Lemm".

I wish I had the know-how to update this pack to work with SLX.
If anyone is interested in updating this, here's a link to it: https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZ8bW6VZynzFutxcNGmXO0rrAcw0w0FEw08X
« Last Edit: May 19, 2023, 01:15:24 AM by jkapp76 »
...Jeremy Kapp

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2023, 05:03:29 AM »
@Jeremy

Since you gave me permission from a while back to make changes to your pack as I see fit, I decided to take care of the conversion to NL for you. Here's your Blizzard of Lemm SuperLemmini levels converted to NL. I haven't confirmed it, but they should all open fine in the NL editor of either NL or SLX. Also, even though the conversion went without a hitch, you still want to check things like whether the terrain shifted over when it shouldn't, traps to make sure they function properly, etc. This is because conversions aren't perfect, so it's great practice to double-check everything after converting anyway.

I haven't decided what to do with your "Snow Palace" level yet. As I stated quite a while back, I can confirm that all of your levels are solvable on SuperLemmini except for said level I mentioned. There just isn't enough time, but I have confirmed that with an extra minute added so that you're given 11 minutes, the level becomes possible. If keeping the 10 minutes as the level currently gives, it would need maybe more diggers to make the level possible.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2023, 08:12:06 PM »
https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZmmx6VZv5fSNLCKdH7fduNKYCmrwpbMmlS7

Here's a link to "The Blizzard of Lemm"
I went over this and had to fix a few traps the lemmings were walking over and adjust a couple things. But it looks good so far. I didn't work my way through ever area so there could be an issue somewhere, but it's good enough to toss out here.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2023, 02:45:50 AM by jkapp76 »
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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2023, 09:07:01 PM »
Since the only feedback I've had regarding swapping the F2/F3 hotkeys in the menu (F2 is now config, F3 is now levels) has been in the affirmative, this one has now gone through and will be effective as of the next release.

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2023, 04:36:43 PM »
My only question is...
What about all of the signs that already exist that have F2 printed right on the Level sign and F3 printed right on the Settings?

I opened up the Levels folder and did a search for "sign_config" and there are a lot of mainstream level packs that will have the F keys backwards.
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Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2023, 07:39:12 PM »
What about all of the signs that already exist that have F2 printed right on the Level sign and F3 printed right on the Settings
... there are a lot of mainstream level packs that will have the F keys backwards.

From this topic:

Quote from: WillLem
it's been said from the beginning that the SLX development isn't concerned with previous (Neo)Lemmix content; this isn't to be dismissive or inconsiderate of the work that has gone into the many fantastic NL packs over the years, it's so we can have something of a fresh start and generate new ideas free from having to worry about existing content preservation.

To be more specific to this issue, though, we have an opportunity here to tidy things up like the menu graphics, UI layout, etc. If that means a few signs need to be updated to match the changes, I'd say it's a worthwhile trade-off :)

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2023, 07:47:14 PM »
To be more specific to this issue, though, we have an opportunity here to tidy things up like the menu graphics, UI layout, etc. If that means a few signs need to be updated to match the changes, I'd say it's a worthwhile trade-off :)

I think I've downloaded every level pack. I'm willing to update every sign to the new SLX standard if there's some way to make them available.
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2023, 09:51:21 PM »
I think I've downloaded every level pack. I'm willing to update every sign to the new SLX standard if there's some way to make them available.

You can share them on the SuperLemmix board when they're ready - make a New Topic for each pack, that way people can comment on the packs individually, share replays, etc. I'll make an index for all SLX packs as well, once there are a decent amount on the board.

A few things to bear in mind before doing this, though:

* SuperLemmix physics are different from NeoLemmix, so packs will need to be checked for solvability even if they mostly play the same.
* Make sure that the original author is happy for you to modify and port their pack over to SuperLemmix, wherever possible.
* You might have to do some maintainence follow-up stuff like fixing levels, graphics, etc. if people find bugs/problems with the packs.

As long as that's all good, by all means go ahead and share the packs!

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2023, 08:43:16 AM »
Now that Shimmiers can shimmy off walls (including stacks) when Climbing and then turn around, I was able to backroute LOA loud 5 (When I come around) again like before when I first played the pack. When Strato saw my solution he reported it, saying climbers shouldn't shimmy off stacks. Soon afterwards, Namida fixed it so shimmiers could not shimmy off stacks. Most if not all people agreed with Namida's fix.

here is my backroute solution again in Superlemmix 2.1.1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gyigt9IZY0A

I think Strato wouldn't like this Superlemmix 2.1.1 change either since now this level can be backrouted again.

Strato thinks that only jumpers should jump off walls and not shimmiers

« Last Edit: June 07, 2023, 09:30:53 AM by ericderkovits »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2023, 03:32:00 PM »
When Strato saw my solution he reported it, saying climbers shouldn't shimmy off stacks. Soon afterwards, Namida fixed it so shimmiers could not shimmy off stacks.

The purpose of allowing Climbers to always be assigned Shimmiers is to make it easier to transition from Climber>Shimmier when playing in real-time (particularly in Classic Mode, where skill queuing is deactivated). It's an intentional design decision and won't be reverted.

I think Strato wouldn't like this Superlemmix 2.1.1 change either since now this level can be backrouted again.

Unless it's a bug (which it isn't, in this case), behaviour won't be changed in order to preserve existing content that's already available for, and playable in, NeoLemmix. This goes for my own content as well - please don't take it personally.

The answer here is to fix the level so that it's playable in SuperLemmix, or replace it with a different level. With that said, it's also worth mentioning that whilst SLX development is in a fairly fluid, transitionary period, it's possible that more physics changes will be made until we're settled on a more or less stable version, which I'll be sure to announce as and when that time comes.

I'm going to try to put together some sort of design schedule so that players know what's coming and what to expect in terms of possible changes, but bear in mind that I'm still responding to other people's ideas as well as implementing my own (as an example, it's been suggested by a number of people that the Fencer tunnel be made wider, and this is something I'll get around to looking at in due course).

As you've no doubt already seen, I absolutely will fix bugs that arise as long as they're not intentional behaviour. So, please do continue to report anything you spot, but if it's related to a design decision that's been made for SuperLemmix, it's very unlikely to be actioned upon unless it's something that clearly breaks the game itself.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2023, 05:54:50 PM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2023, 07:51:52 PM »
As a counterpoint to the previous post, here's an example of a change that's now been made to SuperLemmix not just because it breaks a level, but because it's also a game-breaking bug as well:

In Strato's Lemmings World Tour pack there is a level called Vegas Nights which demonstrates a Swimmer's ability to duck under a trap. The trick is to use a Stoner to create a piece of terrain which nudges the Swimmer down just enough pixels to make it past the trap's trigger (not a spoiler btw - the level makes the trick very obvious and even mentions it in the preview screen text).

SuperLemmix's Freezer (which has replaced the Stoner) currently explodes too high, so the resulting Freezer terrain doesn't have the same effect of nudging the lems underwater. This, I would consider to be a game-breaking change, because it restricts possibilities from both a designer and player POV.

Also, even if designing the Freezer skill from scratch, it's reasonable to expect that assigning them in water would create some sort of block which would either turn other Swimmers around entirely, or else cause them to dive a couple of pixels; this is something we'd want anyway.

So, in the next SLX update, Freezers explode 2px lower when assigned to a Swimmer. This fixes the behaviour so that it's a reliable game feature, and it allows the above existing level to play out as intended.

The point here being that it's still worth reporting anything that you find in older levels which may compromise the game in some way. Don't assume that the answer will always be the same; it will depend entirely on whether it's something we want for SuperLemmix or not.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2023, 09:28:41 PM »
The Ballooner is almost ready for pre-release testing!

I'd like to include this and one other skill in 2.5, which will also include a number of updates to the sprite sets (such as Zombie Walkers). So, we need to decide on one other skill which I can begin to implement for 2.5.

This will bring the total skills to 26 - just a reminder that I think 28 ought to be the limit. Since SLX allows 14 skills per-level, 28 seems like a good number to aim for since it's double that amount.

Or, we can even look at culling one skill to keep the total to 24, which is 3 x the Classic 8, and then not include any more skills after the Ballooner.

So, some questions to answer:

1) Which of the currently proposed skills would you like to see alongside the Ballooner in 2.5?
  • Runner/Hoverboarder - speeds up lemming during Walker state, extends Jumper range / Hoverboarder also glides above ground, gaining the lem a slight height advantage and potentially avoiding trigger areas
  • Ladderer - diagonally-downwards-oriented construction skill
  • Propeller/Twister - vertically-upwards-oriented destruction skill
  • Batter - moves other lemmings along a Jumper arc by hitting them with a bat
  • Surfer- single-use Swimmer, not likely to be implemented at all if we go with the Hoverboarder idea
2) Are you happy with 28 as a proposed limit on skills, or would you like this to be lower/higher?

3) Do you think we shouldn't add another skill, and instead cull a skill to keep the total at 24 (current Status Quo)?

All thoughts, comments, suggestions welcome!

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2023, 09:50:38 PM »
Here's my answers to your questions...

1) Which of the currently proposed skills would you like to see alongside the Ballooner in 2.5?
*Probably Ladderer.

2) Are you happy with 28 as a proposed limit on skills, or would you like this to be lower/higher?
*I actually don't know yet. 28 sounds good, but I hate to place restrictions like this. What if we get the ultimate idea
for a skill, but we already hit our set limit?

3) Do you think we shouldn't add another skill, and instead cull a skill to keep the total at 24 (current Status Quo)?
I'm happier to see a skill or two added.


I'm happy to see new objects too, like trampoline, which wouldn't add a skill. Or some of the other ideas, like spearing zombies?
...Jeremy Kapp

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2023, 10:46:42 AM »
Quote
1) Which of the currently proposed skills would you like to see alongside the Ballooner in 2.5?
*Probably Ladderer.

The Ladderer and the Twister / Propeller would be on par in terms of the "design gap" they would fill (downward Builder vs. upward Digger).
I would assume they take a little longer to program, though? Perhaps Ladderer and Twister should be introduced in the same (later) test version.

For right now, if the Ballooner is already finished, the Hoverboarder (as a simultaneous stand-in for Runner, Surfer, and "horizontal flier" skill) would probably go along with it nicely.
Both the Ballooner and Hoverboarder are "flying" skills, but accomplish something quite different:
  • The Hoverboarder can be isolated from a crowd horizontally, and lends itself better to flow-control solutions.
  • The Ballooner lends itself better to classic "worker lemming" solutions, where the crowd stays behind, while the Ballooner goes ahead / up to carve out a path.

Quote
2) Are you happy with 28 as a proposed limit on skills, or would you like this to be lower/higher?
*I actually don't know yet. 28 sounds good, but I hate to place restrictions like this. What if we get the ultimate idea
for a skill, but we already hit our set limit?

I agree with jkapp here. There are too many ongoing discussions about potentially useful skills right now to already set a fixed limit.
The Hoverboarder has already helped to identify and eliminate some of the less useful candidates (Surfer, Runner, Magic Carpet etc.), by joining them all into a single, much more versatile skill.

So I'm not worried about us exceeding that potential limit of 28 too far yet anyway. However, precisely for that reason, I wouldn't set the number 28 in stone at this point. If we do end up with 30 skills in the end, for example, would that be so much worse? I don't think we'll blow things up to 40 or something. ;)

Quote
3) Do you think we shouldn't add another skill, and instead cull a skill to keep the total at 24 (current Status Quo)?
I'm happier to see a skill or two added.

When in doubt, I'd always advocate for rather keeping the existing skill set than for adding two further ones in exchange for culling an existing one.
The latter option would likely taint the players' joy about the new toys with the grief over having lost a long-established skill.
:crylaugh:

I can understand the changes from Stoner to Freezer, especially with the demonstration / introduction video that WillLem just uploaded.
While this does increase the challenge of converting old levels to SuperLemmix, it also might make some of them easier to execute (ironically, since SuperLemmix is perfectly fine with more execution difficulty than NeoLemmix :D ). For example, any level that requires Swimmers to dive under Stoners will be less pixel-precise with Swimmers and Freezers instead.

However, any further such changes would complicate any potential conversions of existing packs to SuperLemmix even further.
For example, if culling discussions were to come up, I could see the Stacker and/or Disarmer in danger next.
And I've spent too much time coming up with useful Stacker tricks over the past years to be ready to potentially lose the Stacker now. :evil:

While the Disarmer is more restrictive in its current applications, we have already discussed how some of the future objects planned for SuperLemmix might make the Disarmer more versatile, too. (For example, if it could disable radiation or slowfreeze objects.)

TL;DR: If there's an unspoken skill limit for SuperLemmix somewhere already, I'd rather see fewer new ones added than existing ones removed.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Floyd Brannon

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2023, 04:24:20 PM »
It looks like alot has happened in the last few days. Here's my answers to the questions.

1. Twister/Ladderer But the hoverboard/runner/magic carpet option is a close call too.
2. 30 is a better limit. It's 20 less than Lemmings 2.
3. I don't want to see a skill removed. Maybe consider adding strength to the weaker skills.

By adding objects and traps you make the disarmer stronger. I've seen suggestions for the fencer to be improved too. I think this way of thinking is better than removing them. Could you disarm a trampoline?


Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2023, 12:44:23 AM »
28 sounds good, but I hate to place restrictions like this. What if we get the ultimate idea for a skill, but we already hit our set limit?
I agree with jkapp here. There are too many ongoing discussions about potentially useful skills right now to already set a fixed limit.

Re: jkapp76's comment - that's a bridge to cross if we come to it ;P

The numbers are really more "intention-signifiers" than outright limits. The speed and ferocity with which SLX has stacked up on features needs to be mitigated somewhat by making future plans as clear and well-defined as possible. For now, it seems enough to make it clear that we don't want a "Lemmings 2: The Tribes" situation, with ridiculous amounts of skills.

Going forward, any skills which do get added need to be doing at least one thing that no other skill is doing. The Fencer and Laserer already negate this - it's likely I'll put the Fencer forward for being culled as other more useful and cleary-defined skills get added.

I'm happy to see new objects too, like trampoline, which wouldn't add a skill

Trampolenes will most likely happen, especially if we get the Runner/Hoverboarder skill as well - the extended jump can be part of both the skill and the object, in this case.

The Ladderer and the Twister / Propeller would be on par in terms of the "design gap" they would fill (downward Builder vs. upward Digger).
---
For right now, if the Ballooner is already finished, the Hoverboarder (as a simultaneous stand-in for Runner, Surfer, and "horizontal flier" skill) would probably go along with it nicely.

This makes sense. Ballooner and Runner/Hoverboarder can both be thought of as "movement-based" skills. It seems a good idea to group them in this way.

Then again, it might be more interesting to try out different skill types at the same time as well.

I'll count this as one vote for Ladderer, one vote for Runner/Hoverboarder so far.

When in doubt, I'd always advocate for rather keeping the existing skill set than for adding two further ones in exchange for culling an existing one.
The latter option would likely taint the players' joy about the new toys with the grief over having lost a long-established skill.
:crylaugh:

Point taken, but it seems a bad idea to reject a potential new skill with a very distinctive action (such as the Batter, or the Twister/Propeller) for the sake of keeping something which is mostly redundant (I'm thinking of the Fencer here. In all honesty, the Disarmer is probably safe in the sense that it has a unique action and a distinct purpose).

With that said, I absolutely won't remove any skills or objects without significant discussion and Forum consensus.

1. Twister/Ladderer But the hoverboard/runner/magic carpet option is a close call too.

Not sure what to count this as, vote-wise! :crylaugh: Maybe I need to do a poll.

3. I don't want to see a skill removed. Maybe consider adding strength to the weaker skills.
---
By adding objects and traps you make the disarmer stronger.

Yes, this is definitely along the same lines as I'm thinking; the Swimmer needs an upgrade, and we can probably look at making the Disarmer more interesting somehow, even beyond simply adding more objects.

Could you disarm a trampoline?

Anything is possible, but this is something I'd probably vote against personally. Radiation and Slowfreeze should absolutely be disarmable, but it doesn't seem worth doing the same thing for Trampolenes since they're more or less neutral in their effect.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2023, 01:28:55 AM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2023, 12:47:53 AM »
Added a poll :lemcat:

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic [POLL]
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2023, 01:41:51 PM »
It's looking like the Hoverboarder/Runner is the most likely candidate, and it's probably my own preferred option at this point, so I'll go ahead and focus on that.

The others will also be at least trialled, if not fully implemented, eventually.



EDIT: Development of the Hoverboarder/Runner skill has been discontinued in favour of other, better, less problematic ideas
« Last Edit: November 29, 2023, 03:31:57 PM by WillLem »

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2023, 05:28:26 PM »
Congratz WillLem on the release of SuperLemmix 2.6! Impressive job you've done. The ballooner is gonna be lots of fun. :)
My NeoLemmix packs: All You Need Is Lemmings - Long Live Lemmings! - Yippee! More Lemmings
SuperLemmix: Tomb Rodents featuring Lemmina Croft

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2023, 08:33:32 PM »
Congratulations to WillLem, and most of all, a big thank you for SuperLemmix 2.6! :thumbsup:

I actually waited for this version before creating further levels, even for those which don't require the new skills. That's due to the changed Shimmier behaviour of being able to climb up around corners. Since everyone knows by now how much I like using the Shimmier in my levels, it was therefore pointless to keep creating levels for version 2.5 when I knew the Shimmier behaviour would change in version 2.6, so my replays would break anyway. In the long term, though, I think this changed Shimmier behaviour (in line with Lemmings 2: The Tribes) will be for the better, as it creates opportunities for even more skill interactions, and thereby, more complex puzzles.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels