Author Topic: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic  (Read 9604 times)

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Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2023, 10:46:42 AM »
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1) Which of the currently proposed skills would you like to see alongside the Ballooner in 2.5?
*Probably Ladderer.

The Ladderer and the Twister / Propeller would be on par in terms of the "design gap" they would fill (downward Builder vs. upward Digger).
I would assume they take a little longer to program, though? Perhaps Ladderer and Twister should be introduced in the same (later) test version.

For right now, if the Ballooner is already finished, the Hoverboarder (as a simultaneous stand-in for Runner, Surfer, and "horizontal flier" skill) would probably go along with it nicely.
Both the Ballooner and Hoverboarder are "flying" skills, but accomplish something quite different:
  • The Hoverboarder can be isolated from a crowd horizontally, and lends itself better to flow-control solutions.
  • The Ballooner lends itself better to classic "worker lemming" solutions, where the crowd stays behind, while the Ballooner goes ahead / up to carve out a path.

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2) Are you happy with 28 as a proposed limit on skills, or would you like this to be lower/higher?
*I actually don't know yet. 28 sounds good, but I hate to place restrictions like this. What if we get the ultimate idea
for a skill, but we already hit our set limit?

I agree with jkapp here. There are too many ongoing discussions about potentially useful skills right now to already set a fixed limit.
The Hoverboarder has already helped to identify and eliminate some of the less useful candidates (Surfer, Runner, Magic Carpet etc.), by joining them all into a single, much more versatile skill.

So I'm not worried about us exceeding that potential limit of 28 too far yet anyway. However, precisely for that reason, I wouldn't set the number 28 in stone at this point. If we do end up with 30 skills in the end, for example, would that be so much worse? I don't think we'll blow things up to 40 or something. ;)

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3) Do you think we shouldn't add another skill, and instead cull a skill to keep the total at 24 (current Status Quo)?
I'm happier to see a skill or two added.

When in doubt, I'd always advocate for rather keeping the existing skill set than for adding two further ones in exchange for culling an existing one.
The latter option would likely taint the players' joy about the new toys with the grief over having lost a long-established skill.
:crylaugh:

I can understand the changes from Stoner to Freezer, especially with the demonstration / introduction video that WillLem just uploaded.
While this does increase the challenge of converting old levels to SuperLemmix, it also might make some of them easier to execute (ironically, since SuperLemmix is perfectly fine with more execution difficulty than NeoLemmix :D ). For example, any level that requires Swimmers to dive under Stoners will be less pixel-precise with Swimmers and Freezers instead.

However, any further such changes would complicate any potential conversions of existing packs to SuperLemmix even further.
For example, if culling discussions were to come up, I could see the Stacker and/or Disarmer in danger next.
And I've spent too much time coming up with useful Stacker tricks over the past years to be ready to potentially lose the Stacker now. :evil:

While the Disarmer is more restrictive in its current applications, we have already discussed how some of the future objects planned for SuperLemmix might make the Disarmer more versatile, too. (For example, if it could disable radiation or slowfreeze objects.)

TL;DR: If there's an unspoken skill limit for SuperLemmix somewhere already, I'd rather see fewer new ones added than existing ones removed.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Floyd Brannon

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2023, 04:24:20 PM »
It looks like alot has happened in the last few days. Here's my answers to the questions.

1. Twister/Ladderer But the hoverboard/runner/magic carpet option is a close call too.
2. 30 is a better limit. It's 20 less than Lemmings 2.
3. I don't want to see a skill removed. Maybe consider adding strength to the weaker skills.

By adding objects and traps you make the disarmer stronger. I've seen suggestions for the fencer to be improved too. I think this way of thinking is better than removing them. Could you disarm a trampoline?


Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2023, 12:44:23 AM »
28 sounds good, but I hate to place restrictions like this. What if we get the ultimate idea for a skill, but we already hit our set limit?
I agree with jkapp here. There are too many ongoing discussions about potentially useful skills right now to already set a fixed limit.

Re: jkapp76's comment - that's a bridge to cross if we come to it ;P

The numbers are really more "intention-signifiers" than outright limits. The speed and ferocity with which SLX has stacked up on features needs to be mitigated somewhat by making future plans as clear and well-defined as possible. For now, it seems enough to make it clear that we don't want a "Lemmings 2: The Tribes" situation, with ridiculous amounts of skills.

Going forward, any skills which do get added need to be doing at least one thing that no other skill is doing. The Fencer and Laserer already negate this - it's likely I'll put the Fencer forward for being culled as other more useful and cleary-defined skills get added.

I'm happy to see new objects too, like trampoline, which wouldn't add a skill

Trampolenes will most likely happen, especially if we get the Runner/Hoverboarder skill as well - the extended jump can be part of both the skill and the object, in this case.

The Ladderer and the Twister / Propeller would be on par in terms of the "design gap" they would fill (downward Builder vs. upward Digger).
---
For right now, if the Ballooner is already finished, the Hoverboarder (as a simultaneous stand-in for Runner, Surfer, and "horizontal flier" skill) would probably go along with it nicely.

This makes sense. Ballooner and Runner/Hoverboarder can both be thought of as "movement-based" skills. It seems a good idea to group them in this way.

Then again, it might be more interesting to try out different skill types at the same time as well.

I'll count this as one vote for Ladderer, one vote for Runner/Hoverboarder so far.

When in doubt, I'd always advocate for rather keeping the existing skill set than for adding two further ones in exchange for culling an existing one.
The latter option would likely taint the players' joy about the new toys with the grief over having lost a long-established skill.
:crylaugh:

Point taken, but it seems a bad idea to reject a potential new skill with a very distinctive action (such as the Batter, or the Twister/Propeller) for the sake of keeping something which is mostly redundant (I'm thinking of the Fencer here. In all honesty, the Disarmer is probably safe in the sense that it has a unique action and a distinct purpose).

With that said, I absolutely won't remove any skills or objects without significant discussion and Forum consensus.

1. Twister/Ladderer But the hoverboard/runner/magic carpet option is a close call too.

Not sure what to count this as, vote-wise! :crylaugh: Maybe I need to do a poll.

3. I don't want to see a skill removed. Maybe consider adding strength to the weaker skills.
---
By adding objects and traps you make the disarmer stronger.

Yes, this is definitely along the same lines as I'm thinking; the Swimmer needs an upgrade, and we can probably look at making the Disarmer more interesting somehow, even beyond simply adding more objects.

Could you disarm a trampoline?

Anything is possible, but this is something I'd probably vote against personally. Radiation and Slowfreeze should absolutely be disarmable, but it doesn't seem worth doing the same thing for Trampolenes since they're more or less neutral in their effect.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2023, 01:28:55 AM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2023, 12:47:53 AM »
Added a poll :lemcat:

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic [POLL]
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2023, 01:41:51 PM »
It's looking like the Hoverboarder/Runner is the most likely candidate, and it's probably my own preferred option at this point, so I'll go ahead and focus on that.

The others will also be at least trialled, if not fully implemented, eventually.



EDIT: Development of the Hoverboarder/Runner skill has been discontinued in favour of other, better, less problematic ideas
« Last Edit: November 29, 2023, 03:31:57 PM by WillLem »

Offline NieSch

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2023, 05:28:26 PM »
Congratz WillLem on the release of SuperLemmix 2.6! Impressive job you've done. The ballooner is gonna be lots of fun. :)
My NeoLemmix packs: All You Need Is Lemmings - Long Live Lemmings! - Yippee! More Lemmings
SuperLemmix: Tomb Rodents featuring Lemmina Croft

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2023, 08:33:32 PM »
Congratulations to WillLem, and most of all, a big thank you for SuperLemmix 2.6! :thumbsup:

I actually waited for this version before creating further levels, even for those which don't require the new skills. That's due to the changed Shimmier behaviour of being able to climb up around corners. Since everyone knows by now how much I like using the Shimmier in my levels, it was therefore pointless to keep creating levels for version 2.5 when I knew the Shimmier behaviour would change in version 2.6, so my replays would break anyway. In the long term, though, I think this changed Shimmier behaviour (in line with Lemmings 2: The Tribes) will be for the better, as it creates opportunities for even more skill interactions, and thereby, more complex puzzles.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels