Author Topic: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic  (Read 9000 times)

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Offline WillLem

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[DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« on: February 06, 2023, 05:54:14 PM »
SuperLemmix is a new fork of NeoLemmix. The following is a list of proposals which I am going to at least try to implement, with help :):

:lemming: Re-introduce timed bombers as a new skill: the Timebomber!

:lemming: Re-inroduce Superlemming mode!

:lemming: Re-introduce the Grenader skill

:lemming: Re-introduce Direct Drop (and other exiting mechanics!)

:lemming: New skill panel

:lemming: Modify the existing skills

:lemming: Modify some of the water objects

:lemming: New UI graphics (logo, menu, pre-screens etc)

:lemming: Introduce a "Classic Mode" which disables all modern player-assist features

:lemming: Include all of the fully restored original DMA level packs

:lemming: Create and maintain a SuperLemmix Welcome Pack

:lemming: Editor updates to account for the above

And, some absolute dreamland features:

:lemming: Online multiplayer mode (yes, I'm laughing at myself as I type this).

:lemming: "Typed" lemmings and matching exits which only allow lemmings of that type (I'd probably start by allowing mixing of Lemmings and Lemminas, and having exits specific to each. I'm a million miles away from being able to actually do this, though!) - this will likely need to happen in the event of a multiplayer mode anyway.

And, some other stuff I can't think of right now but that I've likely already created topics for somewhere on the Forums. I'll add them back to this list if I care enough about the ideas at this point.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2023, 03:29:58 PM by WillLem »

Offline Silken Healer

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2023, 03:18:57 AM »
For the sake of simplicity, let's keep this topic as a general discussion of the skills (or, mods - by all means consolidate it into one of the existing skills discussion topics, such as this one), and keep any discussion regarding a possible fork of NeoLemmix to this one.

So are the timed bombers to be discussed in this thread from now on? If so, I recommend locking the old thread and redirect it to this one.

:lemming: Online multiplayer mode (yes, I'm laughing at myself as I type this).

I'd say don't be harsh on yourself and believe in yourself but, also, just get the basics i.e. timed bombers down first and then build on top of that.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2023, 05:19:32 PM »
So are the timed bombers to be discussed in this thread from now on? If so, I recommend locking the old thread and redirect it to this one.

Good idea, done.

just get the basics i.e. timed bombers down first and then build on top of that.

Thanks. Just had a first look at the NL source today, and I've created a new BitBucket repository for the proposed SuperLemmix fork. Scary, but I'm looking forward to understanding what everything is.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2023, 05:32:54 PM »
Apologies for the triple-post. Just wanting to make a note of how I'm likely to go forward with this.

I'd ideally like to remove the Fencer skill, since the Laserer is a much better way of creating upward-diagonal tunnels. So that existing content featuring Fencers could potentially be redesigned to account for this, I'd also extend the range of the Laserer to infinity. This reduces the number of skills to 20. I'd then add in the Grenader, and Timed Bombers as a separate skill, bringing the total to 22.

First order of business is to see if I can get all 22 skills displayed in the panel at once, by doubling up the height. This seems a relatively simple enough task to get myself started; if I can manage to do it, then it's worth me putting in the time and effort to start looking at the skills themselves. Since all I'd be doing is tweaking existing skills or re-adding those for which the code already exists somewhere, I feel it's just about within my grasp. But, we'll see.

...

I am going to need help with this, I can't deny it. If anyone is happy to collaborate and offer support, please do get in touch. We can get on the video chat in Discord and have a look at things together.

Offline Silken Healer

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2023, 05:57:26 PM »
While your making this fork, would you also consider adding a few other suggestions to this fork which have been rejected and 1. Either you/lots of other people really wanted it or 2. It was rejected because of the "philosophy of NeoLemmix" (like timed bombers) which wouldn't apply here?

Offline Silken Healer

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2023, 05:50:30 PM »
I've thought about it, and I've come round to your "level breakage will have to be accepted" philosophy a bit more. If so, then you've already thought everything through. And as for the water, I'd say that it's technically just water with a skin on but it's up to you

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2023, 05:01:42 AM »
I'm completely on board with not worrying about breaking existing content, especially as if this fork of NL does come to fruition then it would have its own thread under NL and levels/level packs could be tagged with the appropriate engine it's compatible with or posted in the correct topic.

Something that you might have already considered as a future to-do, but just to be sure, and that is seeing how you started a topic on a potential Lemmicks 2 pack, how about bringing back some of the culled gimmicks? Not all of them of course, just some so that the zombie isn't the only one in the engine. I would most certainly want to see Karoshi in New Formats, as I really liked that one when I played through Lemmicks a while back, and it seems to be quite popular among many here. This would be great for additional challenges too!

Of course, you get to have your lovely Superlemming and Frenzy gimmicks too :P This would certainly provide even more motivation to get the actual Lemmicks 2 level pack going in the making, as well as make it easier to work on it since you won't have to dig up a really old level editor. Just imagine, gimmicks existing in New Formats ;) Of course, there's also the problems with how some of them would work with the skills that got added after the culls and transition to Old/New Formats, but that can be discussed at a later time.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2023, 12:19:27 AM »
I would most certainly want to see Karoshi in New Formats

I probably wouldn't implement this as a gimmick, instead I'd more likely go along the lines of making it so that any level can have a save requirement of 0, and killing all lemmings in any way other than using the nuke satisfies this requirement. I'm not sure exactly how it would work in code, but that's probably how I'd want Karoshi to be implemented, rather than as an outright gimmick. I've decided against adding this feature in SuperLemmix, but may reconsider.

Of course, you get to have your lovely Superlemming and Frenzy gimmicks too :P

Wow, good shout. I think Superlemming is almost such a given that I forgot to even think about it! That one's going in the OP list immediately ;P

Only thing is, I'm not sure entirely how NeoLemmix (or Lemmix/DOS, for that matter) handles Superlemming mode. If it does so by engaging the fast-forward button, for example, then this may play out differently depending on the size of the level. I've noticed that the fast-forward speed varies quite widely on my computer, and my laptop is by no means a slouch.

I'd probably want to try and find a way to make it so it's the same speed regardless of what computer you run it on, and at this point I have no clue how this would even be approached. "if Superlemming=true, enable fast-forward" is relatively simple, whereas dealing with frame rates directly I can imagine will be much more difficult.

It'll happen though, for sure! :)



Edit Simon: I've split the performance concerns into
Performance During Fast-Forward.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2023, 02:37:44 AM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2023, 10:37:46 PM »
Apologies for the multiple-posts. It doesn't seem worth having more that one topic for this yet, since I have no idea how far I'm going to get with it. I do want to keep posts for each feature as separate as possible though, so I've indexed them in the OP for easy reference.

All discussion of all features can continue in this topic, of course. Refer to the OP if you'd like to find out what's going on with a particular feature. I'll likely concentrate on just two or three for the first release, and they'll most likely be the ones which I find easiest to implement!

I really do want to do this though, so I will go ahead and aim for an initial "very experimental beta" version to be released sometime in the spring, even if it's only one with a few minor tweaks.

Thanks for showing an interest so far, those who've posted. I'll very likely need a lot of help with this initially, but I'm looking forward to getting stuck in and learning everything I need to learn as I go along :lemcat: 8-)

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2023, 03:00:21 AM »
A new panel mockup. Much happier with this one!

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2023, 11:37:00 AM »
Some ideas for modifying the existing skills. Rather than removing the less-popular ones (which, by the looks of it, is itself no easy task!), perhaps they could be made slightly more interesting...?

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2023, 06:58:30 AM »
Done a lot of work on this today, check the various posts for updates on where I'm up to with each feature.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2023, 12:18:18 AM »
Potential names for this engine:

SuperLemmix

It's the first idea, and it occurred very naturally. The engine will actually be a "Super" version of Lemmix (as opposed to NeoLemmix), since it will have more features than Lemmix but also be retro-inspired. In some ways, it will end up having less features than NeoLemmix, or at least less emphasis on the style on gameplay which NeoLemmix affords.

Superlemming mode will be making a comeback as well, and will be a prominent feature, no doubt. So, the name of the engine being close to this also seems appropriate.

However, since "SuperLemmix" is so close to "SuperLemmini" (and indeed "Superlemming"), there is some potential for confusion. I'm not too concerned about this, but just wanted to float some other ideas in the meantime:

Possible alternative names, for consideration:

RetroLemmix

I like this because it makes a statement about what the engine is about: bringing some of the classic gameplay back to the game of lemmings. The features will be geared towards this goal, and may even take over completely under a name like "RetroLemmix".

Then again, it doesn't exactly future-proof it.

Lemmiga

Pretty obvious what the inspiration is here. Reasons for it are similar to those for RetroLemmix. I'll also be aiming to line the engine up a bit more with the Amiga-style look and feel.

Lemoshi

This idea came up a while ago when I was tinkering with SuperLemmini. I still like the idea, but perhaps not as much as the other suggestions.



Feel free to add some suggestions if you have any ideas!

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2023, 04:57:38 PM »
I've just discovered this thread. Thank you for reincorporating the timed bombers! :thumbsup:

Suggestions for the engine:

Lemmix Beyond
Modern Lemmix
Cool Lemmix
Snazzy Lemmix
Lemmix Boost

Sorry if I'm late for giving ideas about the timed thing, but, have you considered having both timed and untimed bombers as skills, and thus ending this rift?

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [DISC] SuperLemmix Discussion Topic
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2023, 09:45:13 PM »
Some thoughts:

If you're going to do this, it's quite clear that you don't really intend on following the existing NeoLemmix philosophy in regards to the player assist mechanics, and I'd have to question if it makes sense to appease both crowds with this engine. Perhaps fully embrace this engine's difference in philosophy and then design a cohesive experience around that. If we still want to maintain the existing philosophy, there's no reason we can't make divergent forks.

As part of this, rather than allowing levels to disable player assist features, I think it would be better for you to decide which player assist features this engine should keep. As a general rule, I'd suggest definitely keeping the player assist features that multiplayer Lix allows you to use:
 - Directional Select. It only breaks one official level, and that one level has a trivial solution and is at worst a 1 in 8 chance to solve correctly if you don't even try to get the timing right. It prevents you from having to redo a level simply because, for example, you had to pick a lemming out of a crowd and you got unlucky (in practice, there's no RNG going on, but the way small differences can affect the exact alignment of lemmings may as well make it RNG). Additionally, a few of the official ports support it.
 - Splat Ruler. Not even remotely game breaking even on levels with trivial solutions that are just finicky to pull off.

In addition, I recommend keeping Clear Physics Mode just because let's be honest hidden objects suck and it doesn't actually make fair levels easier.

The rest I'll refrain from commenting on for the time being. Though I do hope you at least keep pausing with a hotkey even if you don't keep assign while paused. There's precedent, lots of the official ports support it.

Why disable auto screen start? That's not a player assist feature, that's a designer assist feature. You leave auto screen start on and it chooses a sensible starting position for you, and then you override it in the editor if you don't like what it chose.