Poll

If the option were provided, would you set the background to always be one particular colour, regardless of style?

Yes, I'd choose for it to always be Amiga blue
0 (0%)
Yes, I'd choose for it to always be DOS black
1 (25%)
Yes, I'd choose some other colour (please specify in a reply)
0 (0%)
No, I think the style creator should set the background colour
2 (50%)
No, I prefer a variety of background colours
1 (25%)
No, I don't really mind what colour the background is
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 4

Voting closed: April 12, 2023, 02:41:05 AM

Author Topic: [SUG] Change background colour option  (Read 1937 times)

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Offline WillLem

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[SUG] Change background colour option
« on: April 04, 2023, 12:49:36 AM »
Added a poll. I'd personally rather not allow background-colour-changing (as it overrides creator content), but if there's enough demand, I'll add an option to set the background colour to whatever the player prefers.

Note that, if implemented, this option would be global, so would affect all levels in all styles.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2023, 12:43:19 PM by WillLem »

Offline jkapp76

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Re: Re: SuperLemmix 1.1.2, Editor 1.1 Release Topic [PROGRESS UPDATE]
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2023, 01:35:47 AM »
I'm totally for changing the colors. I'd recommend a (default colors) option as well though.

I actually have an issue seeing the color blue. It's a form of color-blindness due to an atrophied optic nerve. I get shots that mostly fix it, but that color blue bothers me (worse when red is near blue). This probably causes less issues for others though.

I have already modded the background to black on mine.
The default hot-keys of NL would be easier on me, but learning the new keys isn't terrible.
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline WillLem

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Re: Re: SuperLemmix 1.1.2, Editor 1.1 Release Topic [PROGRESS UPDATE]
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2023, 02:01:59 AM »
I'm totally for changing the colors. I'd recommend a (default colors) option as well though.

Yes, that would be the "Get From Theme" option, which would revert to current background-setting behaviour. That way, users can always switch Themed background colours back on if they want a bit of variety now and again.

I actually have an issue seeing the color blue. It's a form of color-blindness due to an atrophied optic nerve.

Well, I'm glad you've been able to mod your own copy. I never considered that it may be an accessibility issue, this certainly gives the option more weight. Be sure to place your vote in the poll, btw.

The default hot-keys of NL would be easier on me, but learning the new keys isn't terrible.

I've done this just now :lemcat: I've added it back in as an "Alternative Layout" option (it's basically the current NL default).

Offline Proxima

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Re: Re: SuperLemmix 1.1.2, Editor 1.1 Release Topic [PROGRESS UPDATE]
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2023, 03:06:51 AM »
Added a poll. I'd personally rather not allow background-colour-changing (as it overrides creator content), but if there's enough demand, I'll add an option to set the background colour to whatever the player prefers.

Changing the background colour of the original styles also overrides creator content, whether you enforce Amiga blue (most Lemmix and NL levels in these styles will have been designed with black in mind) or DOS black (the original levels themselves were presumably designed with blue in mind -- although Amiga and DOS were in development at the same time, most ports kept blue).

So, I think there are a couple of different ways you could go with this:

* Black as default, give the original levels blue backgrounds using the blue background image in the special style.

* Have a drop-down option for black or blue (maybe with GemLems colours as a third option?) for levels in the original styles, not globally. Then people who want blue can have blue, and people who want black can have black, without disturbing styles that have specially chosen colours such as zanzindorf_cloud. (You could also include options "black on all levels" and "blue on all levels" if the current poll suggests that people really want one of these, but I think that changing the colour used with the original styles is the main feature here.)

Presumably, levels that specify a background image, even if it's single-coloured, would continue to have this override the background colour, so won't be affected. So level creators still have this as a way to get their preferred colour.

Offline WillLem

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Re: Re: SuperLemmix 1.1.2, Editor 1.1 Release Topic [PROGRESS UPDATE]
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2023, 10:31:51 PM »
most Lemmix and NL levels in these styles will have been designed with black in mind

Perhaps, but it's been said from the beginning that the SLX development isn't concerned with previous (Neo)Lemmix content; this isn't to be dismissive or inconsiderate of the work that has gone into the many fantastic NL packs over the years, it's so we can have something of a fresh start and generate new ideas free from having to worry about existing content preservation.

When I mention concerns about overriding creator content, I'm referring more to content which is created (or ported) specifically to SuperLemmix; I want creators to feel like this is a platform on which their content will be presented exactly as intended, wherever possible. The fact that it's so easy to mod your own copy does somewhat fly in the face of this ideal, though, I realise.

Black as default, give the original levels blue backgrounds using the blue background image in the special style.

This is the more tempting option, because it would be the easiest to achieve with things as they currently are. Also, players could mod their own copy of the OG levels quite quickly, since they'd be able to change the background image for the full set of levels at once instead of having to change the background colour in theme.nxtm for each style.

My biggest reservation is that this would mean that those who prefer blue would have to manually add the background tile every time a level is made in an OG style. I suppose I could add the tile to each of the OG styles for quick access, but then that clutters up the folders.

Have a drop-down option for black or blue (maybe with GemLems colours as a third option?) for levels in the original styles, not globally

Yes, this is better. Makes more sense, and protects custom content.

It's the how that slightly holds this one back; it might take me a while to figure out how to do this, and it might end up being more effort that it's worth, especially since it's no longer an accessibility-friendly global option.

With that said, here's what options could be if we were to go in this direction with it:

Original Styles Background Colours
- Always get from level theme* (this would be the default)
- Always Amiga blue
- Always DOS black

(*For the GemLems colours, these would simply be added to theme.nxtm for each style, and would therefore be available when selecting 'Always get from theme').

Presumably, levels that specify a background image, even if it's single-coloured, would continue to have this override the background colour, so won't be affected. So level creators still have this as a way to get their preferred colour.

Yes, that's the case. Background images can currently be deactivated, though, leaving the default/theme background to display instead (I've considered removing this option as well, for similar reasons to not wanting to implement a background colour menu option).

I think I need to hear a bit more from people who'd want the option: what are your reasons/needs/preferences/concerns with this? Are you thinking of playing/creating levels in SuperLemmix or just interested in the discussion?

Also, I wonder if this ever got discussed as an option for Lemmix or NeoLemmix?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2023, 02:34:18 AM by Will »

Offline Turrican

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Re: Re: SuperLemmix 1.1.2, Editor 1.1 Release Topic [PROGRESS UPDATE]
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2023, 11:52:51 PM »
About the backgrounds discussion : There are many custom levels , that don't use the background that , the main tileset that these levels use provide, but they use a background, from a completely different tileset , because it fits better with what they want to achieve with their artstyle. Also there are tilesets that provide more than one backgrounds , for the level creator to choose.

Also there are tilesets that may be negatively affected by some specific moncoloured backgrounds. For example levels made , using the silhouette tileset , would become completely unplayable if black background was chosen, because almost nothing would be visible on these.

Similarly a tileset that relies mostly on light blue shades/colours , could not look good with a blue background.

But if that is optional, I don't think that would be a problem , because, someone that encounters an silhouette level for example , could just disable the option , so the original background of the silhouette level would be restored, and the level would be playable again.

But in any case , the default option for custom levels , think it should be the background that has been chosen by the creator of the level ( not from the creator of the tileset ) , to be the default.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2023, 12:32:24 AM by Turrican »
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Offline WillLem

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Re: Re: SuperLemmix 1.1.2, Editor 1.1 Release Topic [PROGRESS UPDATE]
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2023, 02:33:41 AM »
levels made , using the silhouette tileset , would become completely unplayable if black background was chosen, because almost nothing would be visible on these

Yes, it's clear to me that any background-colour-changing option should ideally not include custom styles, only the OG ones. Accessibility lends more weight to it being a global option, but we don't want players to encounter outright unplayable levels as a result of it.

The thing is, if the option is to not be global, then it's less likely to happen at all, since users can already tweak individual style themes/backgrounds to their own liking anyway. Setting an option for only a handful of styles therefore seems a bit redundant and not worth the effort. Your comments seem to be against the idea of a global option, so I'd count that as one more strike against it.

But if that is optional, I don't think that would be a problem , because, someone that encounters an silhouette level for example , could just disable the option

As much as is possible, I don't want players to have to menu-dive to make the game playable. It's another reason not to have the option.

EDIT: The troll potential is quite high here, as well. Creators can fill a level with black or blue pieces on, say, a light grey background, knowing that some players will see what appears to be a blank level.

But in any case , the default option for custom levels , think it should be the background that has been chosen by the creator of the level ( not from the creator of the tileset ) , to be the default.

Agreed, and in fact the third option would be 'Get From Level Theme' rather than 'Get From Style Theme', since that's current behaviour. I've augmented my above post to clarify this.

So, as it stands, I need to hear more support in favour of having the option in order for it to happen. At the moment, people don't seem to be much in favour of a global option. A cherry-picking and more nuanced option would take more time and potentially be very buggy the more things it has to deal with, so I'm leaning away from wanting to do this. Those is favour of the option, please speak up.

---

What I'm thinking of doing instead, in order to address the potential accessibility issues raised by Jeremy, is make a simple program that can automatically change the background colour of any style/level/pack loaded into it. Doing it separately from the main program like this prevents players who might not be aware of the potential drawbacks of changing the background colour globally/semi-globally from choosing an option on a whim only to encounter a level that looks impossible later. It's more likely to be an informed choice that a user is making to tinker with their copy of the styles.

Whilst this might be more effort to do, it would be a good learning experience for me to make such a program and it could come in handy for content creators in general. Just a thought.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2023, 03:07:58 AM by Will »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][SLX] Change background colour option [POLL]
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2023, 12:31:01 AM »
Voting on this closes tomorrow, but there's still time for discussion before the next version of SuperLemmix is released.

It's looking like a "no" so far, so if anyone feels that this option should be present, now's the time to speak up.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][SLX] Change background colour option [POLL]
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2023, 01:53:50 PM »
It's looking like a "no" so far, so if anyone feels that this option should be present, now's the time to speak up.

It certainly looks like the original suggestion for a player-side option to enforce black, or blue, on all levels is unpopular.

I don't think this should be taken as ruling out the suggestion for an option for black or blue on the original styles. Both were used in different versions of the original game and both have fans who are nostalgic for the version they grew up with :P Of course, as you say, this option would be more work to implement, and with only nine styles affected, it's an easier change for the knowledgeable user to make themselves, so I won't push for it if you prefer not to take the idea any further.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][SLX] Change background colour option [POLL]
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2023, 10:18:25 PM »
OK, with the votes as they are and a lack of verbal support for the option, I'll call it as it is. There won't be any option to change the background colour, either globally or per-theme (note that it's actually the style's theme which determines the background colour).

Whilst I can see the potential benefit of a more dedicated option (such as one that only affects the OG themes), it's not really worth the effort for 2 reasons:

1) It's still technically possible for a level designer to use the terrain and objects from one of these styles, but set a totally different theme with a different background colour. And vice versa. The only way to catch all possible cases is to implement the option globally, which I think we can all agree is too heavy-handed a way of dealing with this.

2) It's very quick and easy to just manually change the colours for the OG styles' themes (and indeed any style's theme you wish) anyway. So, if there's a particular theme which has a background colour that you don't like, you can set it manually, and then any level using that theme will have its background colour changed to your liking. Here's a tutorial, in case anyone doesn't know how to do it: