[NeoLemmix] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?

[Minim]

Several changes have been made to NeoLemmix within the past five years. Now with the inclusion of 10 skills in a skill bar, and that we also have 2 new skills (Slider and Laserer) to play with, I thought I might create a brand new thread instead of update the old one (Which I'm going to lock). I also remember whether we should be using the Cloner or not. I updated one of the criteria to reflect this. The results from the old thread (which can be found here) can be used as a reference point for some levels, but the setup guidelines are outdated, and some of the features aren't seen in the new NeoLemmix Player, such as Challenge Mode. Also, with the updated NeoLemmix mechanics we cannot guarantee that all solutions from the new version will be able to match the old version.

To save everyone else time and effort and also, to circumvent the lack of Challenge Mode I've gone over all the Original and OhNo levels and added 10 of each new skill to every level. If any more skills are needed let me know, or if there're any that I find, I'll reupload the levels. The downloads can be found at the bottom of this thread. The rules are similar to before:

1) Can the level be beaten with only the new skills?
2) If so, assuming an X-of-everything skillset, what is the lowest X the level can be beaten with? ^
3) How many lemmings can you lose? *

^For example, solving a level with 2 builders and 2 miners is better than solving it with 3 bashers, because you've only used any one skill a maximum of twice.

*This is a change from highest %. Since the Cloner is always available, it wouldn't be a good criterion to go for most lemmings saved, because players can just put the rest of the skills on Cloners once they are happy with the solution. One downside to this criterion however is that there is no accountancy for any lemmings lost for this engine so for the sake of this challenge please mention it!

I will also include results where Rule #3 (Lemmings lost count) prioritises Rule #2 (X-of-each skillset).

Original Lemmings
Fun
1: 1 of each
2: 1 of each
3: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 2 of each, lost 0
4: 1 of each
5: 4 of each, lost 44 OR 6 of each, lost 0
6: 2 of each
7-10: 1 of each
11: 2 of each, lost 4 OR 10 of each, lost 0
12: 1 of each, lost 2 OR 2 of each, lost 0
13: 1 of each
14: 4 of each, lost 2 OR 5 of each, lost 0
15: 3 of each, lost 3 OR 4 of each, lost 0
16: 4 of each
17: 1 of each, lost 20 OR 2 of each, lost 0
18: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 10 of each, lost 0
19: 2 of each, lost 13 OR 5 of each, lost 0
20: 5 of each, lost 4 OR 7 of each, lost 0
21: 3 of each
22: 10 of each
23: 13 of each
24: 1 of each
25: 4 of each, lost 1 OR 7 of each, lost 0
26: 1 of each
27: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 6 of each, lost 0
28: 6 of each, lost 2 OR 9 of each, lost 0
29: 5 of each, lost 39 OR 10 of each, lost 0
30: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 2 of each, lost 0

Tricky
1: 1 of each
2: 1 of each
3: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 2 of each
4: 8 of each
5: 4 of each
6: 2 of each
7: 4 of each, lost 4 OR 9 of each
8: 7 of each, lost 11 OR 14 of each
9: 2 of each, lost 1 OR 6 of each
10: 4 of each
11: 1 of each
12: 1 of each, lost 5 OR 2 of each
13: 2 of each
14: 5 of each
15: 1 of each
16: 6 of each, lost 1 OR 9 of each, lost 0
17: 2 of each
18: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 2 of each, lost 0
19: 1 of each
20: 5 of each, lost 1 OR 6 of each, lost 0
21: 2 of each
22: 1 of each
23: 1 of each, lost 2 OR 2 of each, lost 0
24: 2 of each, lost 2 OR 5 of each, lost 0
25: 2 of each, lost 2 OR 4 of each, lost 0
26: 1 of each
27: 4 of each, lost 2 OR 6 of each, lost 0
28: 10 of each
29: 3 of each
30: 5 of each

Taxing
1: 3 of each, lost 3 OR 4 of each, lost 0
2: 3 of each, lost 1 OR 4 of each, lost 0
3: 6 of each
4: 9 of each
5: 4 of each, lost 2 OR 7 of each, lost 0
6: 1 of each, lost 20 OR 2 of each, lost 0
7: 8 of each
8: 4 of each
9: 1 of each
10: 3 of each
11: 4 of each, lost 4 OR 9 of each, lost 0
12: 5 of each, lost 5 OR 6 of each, lost 0
13: 3 of each
14: 12 of each
15: 3 of each
16: 2 of each, lost 2 OR 8 of each, lost 0
17: 13 of each
18: 10 of each
19: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 9 of each
20: 2 of each
21: 2 of each
22: 4 of each
23: 11 of each, lost 1 OR 14 of each
24: 1 of each
25: 3 of each, lost 2 OR 6 of each
26: 4 of each, lost 4 OR 5 of each
27: 4 of each
28: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 4 of each
29: 1 of each, lost 2 OR 2 of each
30: 1 of each

Mayhem
1: 10 of each, lost 8 OR 15 of each, lost 0
2: 2 of each
3: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 3 of each, lost 0
4: 4 of each, lost 1 OR 7 of each, lost 0
5: 6 of each, lost 2 OR 9 of each, lost 0
6: 2 of each, lost 1 OR 6 of each, lost 0
7: 6 of each
8: 6 of each
9: 6 of each, lost 1 OR 10 of each, lost 0
10: 5 of each, lost 12 OR 6 of each, lost 0
11: 1 of each
12: 23 of each
13: 2 of each
14: 8 of each
15: 10 of each
16: 1 of each
17: 4 of each, lost 2 OR 6 of each, lost 0
18: 6 of each, lost 2 OR 7 of each, lost 0
19: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 4 of each, lost 0
20: 2 of each
21: 2 of each, lost 1 OR 4 of each, lost 0
22: 5 of each
23: 50 of each
24: 1 of each
25: 2 of each, lost 3 OR 3 of each
26: 3 of each
27: 1 of each
28: 22 of each
29: 5 of each
30: 7 of each

Total for Original Lemmings
120/120 levels!

Oh No! More Lemmings
Tame
1: 1 of each, lost 15 OR 15 of each, lost 1
2: 1 of each
3: 3 of each
4: 2 of each
5: No solutions found
6: 2 of each
7-9: 1 of each
10: 5 of each
11: 1 of each
12: 3 of each
13: 2 of each
14: 2 of each
15: 1 of each
16: 2 of each
17: 3 of each
18: 3 of each
19: 4 of each
20: 1 of each

Crazy
1: 1 of each
2: 6 of each
3: 4 of each
4: 2 of each
5: 3 of each
6: 3 of each
7: 11 of each
8: 2 of each
9: 3 of each
10: 8 of each
11: 1 of each, lost 40 OR 15 of each, lost 1
12: 4 of each
13: 3 of each
14: 4 of each
15: 6 of each
16: 1 of each
17: 5 of each
18: 4 of each
19: 2 of each
20: 5 of each

Wild
1: 9 of each
2: 5 of each
3: 5 of each
4: 6 of each
5: 4 of each
6: 1 of each
7: 6 of each
8: 2 of each, lost 1 OR 4 of each
9: 3 of each
10: 3 of each
11: 4 of each
12: 5 of each
13: 11 of each
14: 3 of each
15: 7 of each
16: 2 of each
17: 3 of each
18: 3 of each
19: 10 of each
20: 2 of each

Wicked
1: 5 of each
2: No solutions found
3: 2 of each
4: 5 of each, lost 5 OR 9 of each
5: 1 of each
6: 5 of each, lost 2 OR 13 of each
7: 4 of each
8: 4 of each
9: 5 of each
10: 7 of each
11: 6 of each
12: 5 of each
13: 13 of each
14: 2 of each
15: 11 of each
16: 3 of each
17: 2 of each
18: 4 of each
19: 3 of each
20: 2 of each

Havoc
1: 3 of each, lost 2 OR 4 of each
2: 9 of each, lost 5 OR 13 of each
3: 3 of each
4: 10 of each
5: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 3 of each
6: 3 of each, lost 3 OR 5 of each
7: 7 of each
8: 3 of each
9: 3 of each
10: 1 of each
11: No solutions found
12: 2 of each
13: 3 of each
14: 5 of each
15: 2 of each
16: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 3 of each
17: 1 of each
18: 9 of each
19: 4 of each
20: 3 of each, lost 2 OR 4 of each

Total for Oh No! More Lemmings
97/100

Covox Lemmings
Fun
1: 2 of each
2: 3 of each

Tricky
1: 3 of each
2: 5 of each

Taxing
1: 8 of each
2: 5 of each, lost 5 OR 10 of each

Mayhem
1: 2 of each
2: 3 of each, lost 1

Total for Covox Lemmings
8/8

Prima Lemmings
1: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 2 of each
2-4: 1 of each

Tricky
1: 9 of each
2: 22 of each, lost 32
3: 1 of each
4: 4 of each, lost 1

Taxing
1: 7 of each
2: 1 of each
3: 1 of each
4: 3 of each

Mayhem
1: 7 of each
2: 1 of each
3: 2 of each
4: 8 of each

Total for Prima Lemmings
16/16

Xmas Lemmings
Xmas 91
1: 25 of each
2: 6 of each

Xmas 92
1: 2 of each
2: 3 of each
3: 5 of each
4: 4 of each

Total for Xmas Lemmings
6/6

Holiday Lemmings
Frost
1: 2 of each, lost 1 OR 3 of each
2: 1 of each
3: 2 of each
4: 1 of each
5: 2 of each
6: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 2 of each
7: 3 of each
8: 1 of each
9: 1 of each
10: No solutions Found
11: 1 of each
12: 64 of each
13: 1 of each
14: 2 of each
15: 2 of each
16: 1 of each

Hail
1: 7 of each
2: 2 of each
3: 10 of each
4: 4 of each
5: 3 of each
6: 0 of each, lost 41 OR 1 of each, lost 18
7: 7 of each
8: 6 of each
9: 19 of each
10: 3 of each
11: 4 of each
12: 2 of each
13: 3 of each
14: 9 of each
15: 3 of each
16: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 7 of each

Flurry
1: 3 of each
2: 2 of each
3: 1 of each
4: 2 of each
5: 3 of each, lost 32
6: 6 of each
7: 6 of each
8: 7 of each
9: 2 of each
10: 5 of each
11: 40 of each, lost 35
12: 1 of each
13: 1 of each
14: 2 of each
15: 1 of each
16: 6 of each, lost 1

Blitz
1: 6 of each
2: 6 of each
3: 40 of each, lost 35
4: 3 of each
5: 4 of each
6: 2 of each
7: 3 of each
8: 1 of each
9: 7 of each
10: 2 of each
11: 7 of each
12: 40 of each, lost 33
13: 6 of each
14: 50 of each, lost 35
15: 5 of each
16: 60 of each, lost 46

Holiday Lemmings Total
63/64

Extra Levels
Genesis
1: 5 of each
2: 2 of each
3: 3 of each
4: 10 of each
5: 4 of each
6: 6 of each
7: 1 of each
8: 3 of each
9: 6 of each, lost 97
10: 2 of each
11: 2 of each
12: 3 of each
13: 2 of each
14: 3 of each
15: 3 of each
16: 5 of each
17: 4 of each
18: 2 of each
19: 3 of each
20: 3 of each
21: 2 of each
22: 6 of each
23: 4 of each
24: 3 of each
25: 5 of each
26: 1 of each
27: 3 of each
28: 3 of each
29: 4 of each
30: 3 of each
31: 5 of each
32: 8 of each
33: 1 of each
34: 6 of each
35: 3 of each
36: 4 of each
37: 3 of each
38: 3 of each
39: 2 of each
40: 6 of each
41: 4 of each
42: 6 of each, lost 1
43: 15 of each
44: 5 of each, lost 1 OR 3 of each, lost 2
45: 7 of each
46: 2 of each, lost 2 OR 11 of each
47: 4 of each

Present
1: 2 of each
2: 2 of each
3: 4 of each
4: 3 of each
5: 3 of each
6: 72 of each, lost 74
7: 4 of each
8: 3 of each
9: 1 of each
10: 2 of each
11: 3 of each
12: 1 of each
13: 4 of each
14: 1 of each
15: 50 of each, lost 50
16: 2 of each
17: 2 of each
18: 2 of each
19: No Solutions Found
20: 5 of each, lost 1 OR 3 of each, lost 2
21: 1 of each
22: 3 of each
23: 3 of each
24: 5 of each
25: 4 of each
26: 3 of each
27: 8 of each
28: 5 of each
29: 2 of each
30: 4 of each

Sunsoft
1: 22 of each, lost 32
2: 2 of each
3: 4 of each
4: 7 of each
5: 4 of each
6: 3 of each
7: 3 of each
8: 5 of each
9: 3 of each
10: 1 of each
11: 1 of each
12: 3 of each
13: 12 of each
14: 13 of each
15: 11 of each
16: 7 of each
17: 4 of each
18: 6 of each, lost 13
19: 1 of each
20: 1 of each
21: 16 of each
22: 2 of each
23: 5 of each
24: 6 of each
25: 8 of each, lost 4
26: 2 of each
27: 2 of each
28: 6 of each
29: 1 of each
30: 2 of each

2P
1: 1 of each
2: No Solutions Found
3: 2 of each
4: 7 of each
5: 1 of each
6: 3 of each
7: 7 of each
8: 5 of each, lost 1
9: 6 of each
10: 5 of each
11: 6 of each
12: 3 of each
13: 4 of each
14: 0 of each
15: No Solutions Found
16: 47 of each, lost 1 OR 61 of each
17: 8 of each
18: 0 of each
19: 0 of each
20: 3 of each, lost 1
21: 9 of each
22: 4 of each
23: 2 of each
24: 1 of each
25: 2 of each
26: 1 of each
27: 0 of each
28: 0 of each
29: 31 of each
30: 30 of each, lost 30
31: 0 of each
32: 1 of each, lost 5 OR 2 of each, lost 0
33: 2 of each
34: No Solutions Found

Sega
1: 2 of each
2: 2 of each
3: 3 of each
4: 6 of each
5: 6 of each
6: 3 of each
7: 2 of each
8: 2 of each
9: 6 of each
10: 3 of each
11: 6 of each
12: 3 of each

PSP
1: 2 of each
2: 2 of each, lost 3 OR 4 of each, lost 0
3: 2 of each, lost 3 OR 3 of each, lost 0
4: 3 of each
5: 4 of each
6: 3 of each
7: 3 of each
8: 3 of each
9: 4 of each
10: 4 of each
11: 3 of each, lost 1 OR 4 of each, lost 0
12: 3 of each
13: 4 of each
14: 2 of each
15: 2 of each
16: 1 of each
17: 2 of each
18: 5 of each
19: 5 of each
20: 1 of each
21: 2 of each
22: 3 of each
23: 5 of each
24: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 4 of each, lost 0
25: No Solutions Found
26: 2 of each
27: 4 of each
28: 1 of each, lost 2 OR 3 of each, lost 0
29: 3 of each
30: 2 of each
31: 2 of each
32: 1 of each, lost 3 OR 5 of each, lost 0
33: 2 of each
34: 7 of each
35: 1 of each
36: 2 of each

Other
1: 10 of each
2: 0 of each
3: 2 of each
4: 6 of each
5: 7 of each
6: 2 of each
7: 6 of each
8: 2 of each
9: 4 of each
10: 10 of each
11: 3 of each

Total for Extra Levels
195/200

Grand Total
504/514

[namida]

*This is a change from highest %. Since the Cloner is always available, it wouldn't be a good criterion to go for most lemmings saved, because players can just put the rest of the skills on Cloners once they are happy with the solution. One downside to this criterion however is that there is no accountancy for any lemmings lost for this engine so for the sake of this challenge please mention it!

If we're only providing 10 cloners, then this still sets an upper bound on how many lemmings can be saved.

Keep in mind that the Fencer and Shimmier are still quite new and may be vulnerable to glitches.

I'd imagine Fencer should be quite stable by now - it's been around for a couple of years now. Shimmier might still prove glitchy, although so far it seems fine.

[WillLem]

Great idea for a challenge! I was thinking of remixing original Lemmings to include only new skills; seems you've beat me to it! I'll get on playing this pack straightaway and let you know what I come up with.

Best,

-WillLem

[Minim]

Ah! Thank you, WillLem. I shall send those thanks to namida too, as he came up with the idea first. I only just saw this post after I completed the Fun levels, so you wanted to do these levels then I apologise. I'll submit them anyway. See if you can match or improve these, or if you want to, go for a new difficulty rating like Tricky. I'll probably do either Taxing or Mayhem.

So, with the update I managed to solve 28 Fun levels. 21 and 23 are still impossible even with the added Fencer. The levels I failed to match from the old thread are 13 and 24.

Replays attached for 11, 15, 19 and 22. The latter two are more of the "rough idea" kind, and may not be the final solution. 19 being how to get as much height as possible, and 22 being how to save fencers. I have saved replays for all the other levels of anyone needs them.

1: 1 of each skill, lost 0
2: 1 of each, lost 1
3: 1 of each, lost 1
4: 1 of each
5: 9 of each, lost 2
6: 2 of each
7: 1 of each
8: 1 of each, lost 1
9: 1 of each
10: 1 of each
11: 2 of each, lost 5
12: 1 of each, lost 23
13: 1 of each, lost 1
14: 4 of each, lost 2
15: 3 of each, lost 3
16: 5 of each, lost 18
17: 1 of each, lost 26
18: 1 of each, lost 1
19: 2 of each, lost 13
20: 5 of each, lost 4
22: 10 of each
24: 3 of each
25: 4 of each, lost 1
26: 2 of each
27: 1 of each, lost 1
28: 6 of each, lost 2
29: 7 of each, lost 20
30: 2 of each, lost 1

[ccexplore]

If we're only providing 10 cloners, then this still sets an upper bound on how many lemmings can be saved.

I think 10-of-each was just to get people started, my understanding is that the challenge allows more than 10 if a level needs that.  That said, since this challenge seems to set up to minimize X first, the better your record is in terms of X, the less cloners you'd have to artificially bump up the save count anyway.

On a related note, are there upper limits built into the game?  If we can have potentially unlimited cloners, I do wonder if we can get some crazy nuke solutions for some levels that can still work out, by virtue of having cloned a crazy high number of lemmings so some would take nearly forever to actually explode?  (You'd use the nuke as a cheat way to get the effects of bombers.)  Or perhaps using nuke as part of solution should be disallowed altogether?

====================

Maybe you want to keep it as a separate challenge, but I also like the inverse idea where we go for minimum lemmings lost first, and then minimize X.  That is, a companion record that ranks rule #3 above rule #2.

[Minim]

Maybe you want to keep it as a separate challenge, but I also like the inverse idea where we go for minimum lemmings lost first, and then minimize X.  That is, a companion record that ranks rule #3 above rule #2.

That's a great idea! Just like in Sokoban games where you can have record lowest moves and pushes in the same level, there's no reason why we can't implement a similar thing here. I'm going to add these results in the same thread and see if I can reword the OP to reflect this.

In fact, I decided to challenge myself to prove that the minimum lemmings lost challenge is different to the X-skills challenge; and I succeeded. On Fun 2 I was able to save all with 2-per skill. It's surprisingly difficult to find for such an early level! Replay attached.

[namida]

On a related note, are there upper limits built into the game?  If we can have potentially unlimited cloners, I do wonder if we can get some crazy nuke solutions for some levels that can still work out, by virtue of having cloned a crazy high number of lemmings so some would take nearly forever to actually explode?  (You'd use the nuke as a cheat way to get the effects of bombers.)  Or perhaps using nuke as part of solution should be disallowed altogether?

You can have 0 to 99 of a skill, or infinite (you can't have "greater than 99, but finite"). Infinite cloners may cause oddities with the postview texts, and could cause game lag if you use too many of them, but there is at least one level out there which naturally contains nearly 2000 lemmings* (although likely at most about 700 or so active at any one time - though removed lemmings still exist in memory, and are still "visited" during iterating through the lemmings although only to get a "this lemming is removed? go on to the next one" check) which runs without issue.

* "Infection Channel" from Lemmings Plus VI. The preview screen states 999 lemmings, but the actual level data specifies 1998 lemmings - it's a two-entrance level where one entrance spawns zombies, and the preview screen's lemming count excludes zombies. You'll never actually reach 1998 lemmings on screen at a time because the zombie entrance is directly above water, as well as the time limit running out before all 1998 lemmings have spawned. The save requirement is only 10, so this is hardly an issue gameplay-wise.

[WillLem]

Here are my replays, solutions and results! (see attached) I've gone for all-saves first, minimising skills second. Hopefully, this will be useful as a guide to the maximum skills required to get a 100% solution, and serve as a benchmark for people to improve on.

Please note that I decided to add original skills to impossible levels (noted below in grey), again to indicate what skills would be required to get maximum saves in these levels. For the purposes of the challenge, by all means disqualify the scores for these particular levels. I still plan to release these levels as a pack at some point anyway (with my solutions as the intended ones); so I went ahead and made the necessary changes. It's worth mentioning that, in all instances, I never needed to add more than 1 of only 1 additional skill in order to complete the level.

I always used all 10 cloners just because they were there and I wanted to save all the Lemmings, darn it! But - I never counted them in the "of each" UNLESS they formed part of the solution (and even then, the amount of cloners used never surpassed the most-used skill in any level anyway).

Original Levels: Always maximum saves (0 losses).

Fun 1 - 1 of each
Fun 2 - 10 of each
Fun 3 - 3 of each
Fun 4 - 2 of each
Fun 5 - 9 of each
Fun 6 - 2 of each
Fun 7 - 2 of each
Fun 8 - 5 of each
Fun 9 - 8 of each
Fun 10 - 2 of each
Fun 11 - 10 of each
Fun 12 - 2 of each
Fun 13 - 4 of each
Fun 14 - 5 of each
Fun 15 - 4 of each
Fun 16 - 10 of each
Fun 17 - 3 of each
Fun 18 - 10 of each
Fun 19 - 6 of each
Fun 20 - 7 of each
Fun 21 (added 1 digger) - 5 of each
Fun 22 - 10 of each
Fun 23 (added 1 basher) - 3 of each
Fun 24 - 4 of each
Fun 25 - 7 of each
Fun 26 - 3 of each
Fun 27 - 6 of each
Fun 28 - 9 of each
Fun 29 - 10 of each
Fun 30 - 3 of each

Tricky 1 - 2 of each
Tricky 2 - 3 of each
Tricky 3 - 3 of each
Tricky 4 - 9 of each
Tricky 5 - 5 of each
Tricky 6 - 5 of each
Tricky 7 - 9 of each
Tricky 8 (added stackers) - 16 of each
Tricky 9 - 6 of each
Tricky 10 - 9 of each
Tricky 11 - 7 of each
Tricky 12 - 4 of each
Tricky 13 - 6 of each
Tricky 14 - 8 of each
Tricky 15 - 1 of each
Tricky 16 - 10 of each
Tricky 17 - 2 of each
Tricky 18 - 3 of each
Tricky 19 - 2 of each
Tricky 20 - 10 of each
Tricky 21 - 4 of each
Tricky 22 - 5 of each
Tricky 23 - 2 of each
Tricky 24 - 5 of each
Tricky 25 - 10 of each
Tricky 26 - 1 of each
Tricky 27 - 6 of each
Tricky 28 (added 1 basher) - 2 of each
Tricky 29 - 7 of each
Tricky 30 - 5 of each

Taxing 1 - 4 of each
Taxing 2 - 5 of each
Taxing 3 - 10 of each
Taxing 4 (added walkers & stackers) - 19 of each
Taxing 5 - 7 of each
Taxing 6 - 3 of each
Taxing 7 - 10 of each
Taxing 8 - 5 of each
Taxing 9 - 1 of each
Taxing 10 - 5 of each
Taxing 11 - 9 of each
Taxing 12 - 6 of each
Taxing 13 - 10 of each
Taxing 14 (added platformers) - 16 of each
Taxing 15 - 7 of each
Taxing 16 - 8 of each
Taxing 17 (added 1 basher) - 3 of each
Taxing 18 - 10 of each
Taxing 19 - 10 of each
Taxing 20 - 8 of each
Taxing 21 - 2 of each
Taxing 22 - 6 of each
Taxing 23 (added stackers) - 16 of each
Taxing 24 - 4 of each
Taxing 25 - 6 of each
Taxing 26 - 9 of each
Taxing 27 - 6 of each
Taxing 28 - 4 of each
Taxing 29 - 3 of each
Taxing 30 - 3 of each

Mayhem 1 (added stackers) - 19 of each
Mayhem 2 - 5 of each
Mayhem 3 - 5 of each
Mayhem 4 - 7 of each
Mayhem 5 - 9 of each
Mayhem 6 - 6 of each
Mayhem 7 - 8 of each
Mayhem 8 (added walkers & stackers) - 22 of each
Mayhem 9 - 9 of each
Mayhem 10 (added platformers) - 16 of each (used cloners for solution!)
Mayhem 11 - 1 of each
Mayhem 12 (added walkers, platformers & stackers) (added 1 basher) - 17 of each - This is a humdinger of a solution; shame it doesn't officially count towards the challenge!
Mayhem 13 - 2 of each
Mayhem 14 - 8 of each (used cloners for solution!)
Mayhem 15 - 10 of each
Mayhem 16 - 1 of each
Mayhem 17 - 6 of each
Mayhem 18 (added walkers & stackers) - 19 of each
Mayhem 19 - 6 of each
Mayhem 20 - 2 of each
Mayhem 21 - 4 of each
Mayhem 22 - 8 of each
Mayhem 23 (added 1 basher) - 4 of each
Mayhem 24 - 3 of each
Mayhem 25 - 6 of each
Mayhem 26 (added 1 digger) - 5 of each
Mayhem 27 - 1 of each
Mayhem 28 (added 1 basher) - 9 of each
Mayhem 29 - 8 of each
Mayhem 30 (added stackers) - 16 of each

Oh No! Levels: Always maximum saves (0 losses).

Tame 1 (added 1 digger!) - 1 of each
Tame 2 - 1 of each
Tame 3 - 3 of each
Tame 4 - 2 of each
Tame 5 (added 2 diggers & 1 miner) - 2 of each (if you weren't going for maximum saves you could use a bomber and make it 1 of each)
Tame 6 - 4 of each (used Minim's stacker-shimmer-glider method for this!)
Tame 7 - 1 of each
Tame 8 - 1 of each (used the cloner to achieve this!)
Tame 9 - 1 of each
Tame 10 - 5 of each
Tame 11 - 2 of each
Tame 12 - 3 of each
Tame 13 - 2 of each (used another of Minim's tricks here!)
Tame 14 - 2 of each
Tame 15 - 1 of each
Tame 16 - 2 of each
Tame 17 - 3 of each
Tame 18 - 3 of each
Tame 19 - 4 of each (this one becomes quite an interesting level!)
Tame 20 - 1 of each

Crazy 1 - 1 of each
Crazy 2 - 6 of each
Crazy 3 - 4 of each
Crazy 4 - 2 of each
Crazy 5 - 3 of each
Crazy 6 - 4 of each
Crazy 7 (added shimmiers & stackers) - 12 of each
Crazy 8 - 3 of each
Crazy 9 - 4 of each
Crazy 10 - 8 of each
Crazy 11 (added walkers, shimmiers, gliders, platformers, stackers & fencers) (added 3 minutes) - 40 of each!
Crazy 12 - 5 of each
Crazy 13 - 4 of each
Crazy 14 - 5 of each
Crazy 15 - 8 of each
Crazy 16 - 3 of each
Crazy 17 - 7 of each
Crazy 18 - 4 of each
Crazy 19 - 3 of each
Crazy 20 - 6 of each

Wild 1 - 9 of each (really happy with this solution - maybe you can find a way to get the skill count down)
Wild 2 - 5 of each
Wild 3 - 8 of each
Wild 4 - 6 of each
Wild 5 - 5 of each
Wild 6 - 1 of each
Wild 7 - 6 of each
Wild 8 (added 2 minutes) - 9 of each
Wild 9 - 3 of each
Wild 10 - 3 of each
Wild 11 - 4 of each
Wild 12 - 5 of each
Wild 13 (added 30 seconds) - 10 of each
Wild 14 - 3 of each
Wild 15 - 7 of each
Wild 16 - 2 of each
Wild 17 - 5 of each
Wild 18 - 3 of each
Wild 19 - 2 of each (so close to being 1 of each... but not quite sure how to achieve it with a 50RR)

Wicked 1 - 5 of each
Wicked 2 (added 5 diggers) - 5 of each
Wicked 3 - 3 of each
Wicked 4 - 9 of each (very messy solution!)
Wicked 5 - 1 of each
Wicked 6 (added fencers) - 13 of each (this is a good 'un, similar to Wild 1!)
Wicked 7 - 4 of each
Wicked 8 - 4 of each
Wicked 9 - 7 of each
Wicked 10 - 10 of each
Wicked 11 - 6 of each
Wicked 12 - 7 of each
Wicked 13 (added stackers) - 13 of each
Wicked 14 - 2 of each
Wicked 15 (added stackers) - 11 of each
Wicked 16 - 3 of each
Wicked 17 - 6 of each (the swimmers finally get some action! - and I've now saved that Fencer!)
Wicked 18 - 4 of each
Wicked 19 - 3 of each
Wicked 20 - 2 of each

Havoc 1 - 4 of each (used cloners to good effect here as inspired by your Wild 13 solution, but couldn't find a way to improve the score).
Havoc 2 (added stackers) 25 of each (whew...!!! that was EFFORT!)
Havoc 3 - 4 of each
Havoc 4 - 10 of each
Havoc 5 - Improved to 3 of each
Havoc 6 - 5 of each
Havoc 7 - 7 of each
Havoc 8 - 3 of each
Havoc 9 - 3 of each
Havoc 10 - 2 of each
Havoc 11 (added walkers & stackers) (added 4 diggers) - 22 of each
Havoc 12 - 2 of each
Havoc 13 - 3 of each
Havoc 14 - 6 of each
Havoc 15 - 2 of each
Havoc 16 - 6 of each
Havoc 17 - Improved to 1 of each
Havoc 18 - 9 of each
Havoc 19 - 6 of each
Havoc 20 - Improved to 4 of each

Other Levels: Always maximum saves (0 losses).

Covox Fun 1 - 2 of each
Covox Fun 2 - 3 of each
Covox Tricky 1 - 3 of each
Covox Tricky 2 -  7 of each
Covox Taxing 1 - 8 of each
Covox Taxing 2 (added stackers) - 13 of each
Covox Mayhem 1 - 2 of each
Covox Mayhem 2 (added 1 digger) - 2 of each (used a variation on the dolly dimple technique to get all saves)

Prima Fun 1 - 2 of each
Prima Fun 2 - 1 of each
Prima Fun 3 - 1 of each
Prima Fun 4 - 1 of each
Prima Tricky 1 - 9 of each
Prima Tricky 2 (added 1 digger) - 1 of each
Prima Tricky 3 - 1 of each
Prima Tricky 4 (added 1 digger) - 1 of each
Prima Taxing 1 - 8 of each
Prima Taxing 2 - 1 of each
Prima Taxing 3 - 1 of each
Prima Taxing 4 - 3 of each
Prima Mayhem 1 - 7 of each
Prima Mayhem 2 - 1 of each
Prima Mayhem 3 - 3 of each
Prima Mayhem 4 - 8 of each

Xmas '91 1 (added 1 miner) - 3 of each
Xmas '91 2 - 6 of each
Xmas '92 1 - 2 of each
Xmas '92 2 - 3 of each

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(that island on the right is a gift!)

Xmas '92 3 - 5 of each
Xmas '92 4 - 4 of each

Holiday '93 & '94 Levels: Always maximum saves (0 losses).

Frost 1 - 3 of each
Frost 2 - 1 of each
Frost 3 - 2 of each
Frost 4 - 1 of each
Frost 5 - 3 of each
Frost 6 - 2 of each
Frost 7 - 3 of each
Frost 8 - 1 of each
Frost 9 - 1 of each
Frost 10 (added 1 basher, 3 miners, 3 diggers) - 3 of each
Frost 11 - 1 of each
Frost 12 (added 1 basher & 1 digger) - 2 of each
Frost 13 - 1 of each
Frost 14 - 3 of each
Frost 15 - 2 of each
Frost 16 - 1 of each

Hail 1 - Improved to 7 of each
Hail 2 - 2 of each
Hail 3 - Improved to 10 of each
Hail 4 - 7 of each
Hail 5 - 9 of each
Hail 6 (added 1 digger) - 1 of each
Hail 7 - Improved to 7 of each
Hail 8 - 6 of each
Hail 9 (added 1 basher and 6 builders) - 6 of each
Hail 10 - 3 of each
Hail 11 - 6 of each
Hail 12 - 2 of each
Hail 13 - 3 of each
Hail 14 - 9 of each
Hail 15 - 3 of each
Hail 16 - Improved to 9 of each

Flurry 1 - 3 of each
Flurry 2 - 2 of each
Flurry 3 - 1 of each
Flurry 4 - 2 of each
Flurry 5 (added 1 miner) - 1 of each
Flurry 6 - 7 of each
Flurry 7 - 6 of each
Flurry 8 - 8 of each
Flurry 9 - 3 of each
Flurry 10 - 6 of each
Flurry 11 (added 1 basher) - 1 of each
Flurry 12 - 1 of each
Flurry 13 - 1 of each
Flurry 14 - 2 of each
Flurry 15 - 1 of each
Flurry 16 (added 1 miner) - 2 of each

Blizzard 1 - 8 of each
Blizzard 2 - 8 of each
Blizzard 3 (added 1 digger) - 1 of each
Blizzard 4 - improved to 3 of each
Blizzard 5 - 4 of each
Blizzard 6 - improved to 2 of each
Blizzard 7 - improved to 3 of each
Blizzard 8 - 1 of each
Blizzard 9 - 10 of each
Blizzard 10 - 2 of each
Blizzard 11 - 10 of each
Blizzard 12 (added 1 miner and 1 digger) - 1 of each
Blizzard 13 - 7 of each
Blizzard 14 (added 1 miner) - 1 of each
Blizzard 15 - 6 of each
Blizzard 16 (added 1 digger) - 1 of each

Extra Levels: Always maximum saves (0 losses).

Genesis 1 - 5 of each
Genesis 2 - 2 of each
Genesis 3 - 3 of each
Genesis 4 - 10 of each
Genesis 5 - 4 of each (finally used the swimmer!)
Genesis 6 - 6 of each
Genesis 7 - 1 of each
Genesis 8 - 3 of each
Genesis 9 - (added 1 miner) 1 of each
Genesis 10 - 2 of each
Genesis 11 - 2 of each
Genesis 12 - 3 of each
Genesis 13 - 2 of each
Genesis 14 - 3 of each
Genesis 15 - 3 of each
Genesis 16 - 5 of each
Genesis 17 - 4 of each
Genesis 18 - 2 of each
Genesis 19 - 3 of each
Genesis 20 - 3 of each
Genesis 21 - 2 of each
Genesis 22 - 6 of each
Genesis 23 - 4 of each
Genesis 24 - 3 of each
Genesis 25 - 5 of each
Genesis 26 - 1 of each
Genesis 27 - 3 of each
Genesis 28 - 3 of each
Genesis 29 - 4 of each
Genesis 30 - 3 of each
Genesis 31 - 5 of each
Genesis 32 - 8 of each
Genesis 33 - 1 of each
Genesis 34 - 6 of each
Genesis 35 - 3 of each
Genesis 36 - 4 of each
Genesis 37 - 3 of each
Genesis 38 - 5 of each
Genesis 39 - 3 of each
Genesis 40 - 6 of each
Genesis 41 - 4 of each
Genesis 42 (added 1 miner) - 5 of each
Genesis 43 - 21 of each
Genesis 44 (added 1 basher) - 3 of each
Genesis 45 - 7 of each
Genesis 46 - 15 of each
Genesis 47 - 11 of each

Present 1 - 3 of each
Present 2 - 2 of each
Present 3 - 4 of each
Present 4 - 5 of each
Present 5 - 4 of each
Present 6 (added 1 miner) - 1 of each
Present 7 - 10 of each
Present 8 - 4 of each
Present 9 - 2 of each
Present 10 - 3 of each
Present 11 - 3 of each
Present 12 - 1 of each
Present 13 - 4 of each
Present 14 - 2 of each
Present 15 (added 1 miner and 1 basher) - 1 of each
Present 16 - 2 of each
Present 17 - 2 of each
Present 18 - 2 of each
Present 19 (added 1 miner) - 2 of each
Present 20 (added 1 basher) - 3 of each
Present 21 - 1 of each
Present 22 - 3 of each
Present 23 - 4 of each
Present 24 - 4 of each
Present 25 - 4 of each
Present 26 - 3 of each
Present 27 (added 1 climber and 1 digger) - 3 of each
Present 28 - 8 of each
Present 29 - 2 of each
Present 30 - 5 of each

Sunsoft 1 (added 1 miner) - 2 of each
Sunsoft 2 - 3 of each
Sunsoft 3 - 4 of each
Sunsoft 4 - 8 of each
Sunsoft 5 - 4 of each
Sunsoft 6 - 4 of each
Sunsoft 7 - 3 of each
Sunsoft 8 - 5 of each
Sunsoft 9 - 6 of each
Sunsoft 10 - 1 of each
Sunsoft 11 - 1 of each
Sunsoft 12 - 3 of each
Sunsoft 13 (added 1 miner) - 5 of each
Sunsoft 14 (added 2 climbers and 2 diggers) - 2 of each (have a look at this one, it's cute!)
Sunsoft 15 (added 1 climber) - 1 of each
Sunsoft 16 (added 1 miner) - 2 of each
Sunsoft 17 (added 1 miner) - 3 of each
Sunsoft 18 (added 1 basher) - 3 of each
Sunsoft 19 - 1 of each
Sunsoft 20 - 2 of each
Sunsoft 21 (added 1 basher) - 3 of each
Sunsoft 22 - 2 of each
Sunsoft 23 - 5 of each
Sunsoft 24 - 7 of each
Sunsoft 25 (added 1 basher) - 6 of each
Sunsoft 26 - 2 of each
Sunsoft 27 - 1 of each
Sunsoft 28 - 8 of each
Sunsoft 29 - 1 of each
Sunsoft 30 - 3 of each

2P 1 - 1 of each
2P 2 (added 1 digger) - 9 of each
2P 3 - 2 of each
2P 4 - 10 of each
2P 5 - 2 of each
2P 6 - 3 of each
2P 7 - 7 of each
2P 8 (added 1 miner) - 1 of each
2P 9 - 6 of each
2P 10 - 6 of each
2P 11 - 10 of each
2P 12 - 3 of each
2P 13 - 4 of each
2P 14 - 0 of each!
2P 15 (added 1 digger) - 4 of each
2P 16 (added 1 basher) - 4 of each
2P 17 - 8 of each
2P 18 - 0 of each! (or 1 of each to save cloners)
2P 19 - 0 of each!
2P 20 (added 2 miners) - 2 of each
2P 21 - 10 of each
2P 22 - 4 of each
2P 23 - 2 of each
2P 24 - 1 of each
2P 25 - 3 of each
2P 26 - 1 of each
2P 27 - 0 of each!
2P 28 - 0 of each!
2P 29 (added 1 basher & 4 builders) - 5 of each
2P 30 (added 3 miners & 3 diggers) - 3 of each
2P 31 - 0 of each! (or 1 of each to save cloners)
2P 32 - 2 of each
2P 33 - 2 of each
2P 34 (added 1 miner) - 1 of each

Sega 1 - 2 of each
Sega 2 - 2 of each
Sega 3 - 3 of each
Sega 4 - 6 of each
Sega 5 - 6 of each
Sega 6 - 3 of each
Sega 7 - 2 of each
Sega 8 - 2 of each
Sega 9 - 6 of each
Sega 10 - 3 of each
Sega 11 - 6 of each
Sega 12 - 3 of each

PSP 1 - 2 of each
PSP 2 - 3 of each
PSP 3 - 3 of each
PSP 4 - 3 of each
PSP 5 (added 1 miner) - 3 of each
PSP 6 - 4 of each
PSP 7 - 4 of each
PSP 8 - 3 of each
PSP 9 - 4 of each
PSP 10 - 4 of each
PSP 11 - 6 of each
PSP 12 - 3 of each
PSP 13 - 4 of each
PSP 14 - 2 of each
PSP 15 - 2 of each
PSP 16 - 1 of each
PSP 17 - 2 of each
PSP 18 - 5 of each
PSP 19 - 5 of each
PSP 20 - 1 of each
PSP 21 - 2 of each
PSP 22 - 3 of each
PSP 23 - 5 of each
PSP 24 - 4 of each
PSP 25 (added 1 digger & 1 miner) - 2 of each
PSP 26 - 3 of each
PSP 27 - 4 of each
PSP 28 - 3 of each
PSP 29 - 3 of each
PSP 30 - 2 of each
PSP 31 - 2 of each
PSP 32 - 5 of each
PSP 33 - 2 of each
PSP 34 - 7 of each
PSP 35 - 1 of each
PSP 36 - 2 of each

Other 1 (added 1 climber & 1 basher) - 1 of each
Other 2 - 0 of each
Other 3 - 2 of each
Other 4 (added 4 builders) - 4 of each
Other 5 - 9 of each
Other 6 - 3 of each
Other 7 - improved to 5 of each
Other 8 - 2 of each
Other 9 - 4 of each
Other 10 (added 1 digger & 1 basher) - 8 of each
Other 11 - 3 of each

So there it is!!! I'm sure more advanced players than me will be able to improve on these scores, but I hope that this sets a decent benchmark for the all-saves part of the challenge.

All best,

-WillLem

[Proxima]

I haven't looked at any replays yet (haven't even installed NL on my new hard drive yet) but I wanted to reply to a couple of points quickly.

Since 10 cloners are available every time, and there's no good reason why the player shouldn't use them, I always used all 10; I liked the idea of being able to save the absolute maximum number of Lemmings every time! Therefore, I have interpreted this challenge as save maximum amount first priority, minimise skills second priority.

10 is an arbitrary number -- the levels have been saved with 10 of each just because they had to have some number, but the understanding is that this challenge aims to find the minimum N such that the level is solvable with N of each. For a given level, N may turn out to be greater than or less than 10.

It's going to be very confusing if everyone reports results in a different format, as well as giving the compiler more work, so I strongly suggest keeping to Minim's format: "N of each, lost X", even when solving the second version of the challenge, with higher savings (reduced losses) as first priority.

Have a look at my replays - it's not at all been easy to get 100% + 10 Lemmings every time, I assure you!

We don't doubt that, but the hard part is saving 100%, not assigning Cloner ten times at the end

Please note that I decided to slightly modify Fun 21 and 23 to make them possible, since it's already been established that they're impossible in the original layout.

Just because one person didn't find a solution does not prove something to be impossible!

[namida]

Just because one person didn't find a solution does not prove something to be impossible!

They're impossible. The only destructive skill you have is the Fencer, there is no way to create a horizontal or less-sloped tunnel with Fencers as the only destructive skill, and the Fencer's angle makes it impossible to get through obstacles in those levels (as you'll go out the top of the level and your lemmings die).

[WillLem]

I'll be honest, it's frustrating having to reply to stuff like this when I thought I'd explained myself quite well initially, but here goes...

Since 10 cloners are available every time, and there's no good reason why the player shouldn't use them, I always used all 10; I liked the idea of being able to save the absolute maximum number of Lemmings every time! Therefore, I have interpreted this challenge as save maximum amount first priority, minimise skills second priority.

10 is an arbitrary number -- the levels have been saved with 10 of each just because they had to have some number, but the understanding is that this challenge aims to find the minimum N such that the level is solvable with N of each. For a given level, N may turn out to be greater than or less than 10.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I have used all 10 cloners because they're there to be used, and allow more Lemmings to be saved. I'm aware that the number is arbitrary, but any skills which allow more Lemmings to be saved legitimately contribute towards a maximum-possible saves record, so it's right to use them if maximum saves is on the agenda.

If the aim of the challenge is to find the minimum number of skills required, then simply discount the 10 cloners. In fact, there is no need for Minim to even do this because I specifically said that I'll only specify where I used cloners when they either allowed me to reach the required saves and/or formed an integral part of the solution.

It's going to be very confusing if everyone reports results in a different format, as well as giving the compiler more work, so I strongly suggest keeping to Minim's format: "N of each, lost X", even when solving the second version of the challenge, with higher savings (reduced losses) as first priority.

N of each what? To be honest, I don't quite understand Minim's format. Hence why I've specified exactly which skills I used. I've now updated my previous post to simply give the total number of skills, in case this is more useful to the compiler.

And again, I specifically said I didn't lose any Lemmings!

Have a look at my replays - it's not at all been easy to get 100% + 10 Lemmings every time, I assure you!

We don't doubt that, but the hard part is saving 100%, not assigning Cloner ten times at the end

I don't understand what you're saying here. I have saved 100% plus the ten cloners, i.e. if the cloners were discounted, I've saved 100%. But, since the cloners are there to be possibly saved, I have chosen to save them in addition to the 100% in order to get the maximum possible save in the level presented.

The fact that I've gone for maximum saves is just as much of a challenge as going for minimum skills/losses, because quite often the solutions require quite extensive work in order not to lose any Lemmings - check out my replays, I worked hard getting these solutions! I hope that they are useful in presenting a full picture of what's possible in this alternative version of the game.

Please note that I decided to slightly modify Fun 21 and 23 to make them possible, since it's already been established that they're impossible in the original layout.

Just because one person didn't find a solution does not prove something to be impossible!

This is a fair comment, I 100% agree! But, I struggled to find a way to solve these levels as they were initally because none of the skills allow destruction of terrain downwards, and both of these levels require this in order to be solved. So, I changed the layout very minimally to make the levels possible.

What it comes down to is this:

Which is more important for this challenge - saving the maximum possible number of Lemmings, or using the minimum number of skills? I have opted to do both, but prioritise saving the maximum possible - which basically means never using the Stoner or allowing Lemmings to die if there is another possible solution (no matter how difficult).

If my contribution to this challenge thread is a problem, I'll happily create another challenge where the point is to ONLY save the maximum possible.

Or, if the challenger is happy to accept my contribution on the premise that I am always trying to save the maximum possible, and that the reason for this is to present this data however anyone wishes to use it, then there is no issue.

Let me know.

Sorry for the rant.

[namida]

Minim's "fewest lost" is better than "most saved" here, because it's independent of how many cloners you use. There could of course be cases where extra steps are needed to save the cloners (to give the most basic example I can think of, envision a level that's just a direct walk to the exit, with 10 lemmings; you can easily save 10 (lose 0) by doing nothing, but if you were given some Cloners, then in addition to assigning them, you'd have to do something to turn at least one lemming around or else it becomes lose-1), but this I suspect is quite uncommon among the official levles.

This could perhaps be resolved with a rule requiring every cloner to be meaningful, but the problem there is that "meaningful" is subjective. Is it meaningful if the cloner performs a later skill that any lemming could have performed (but in this case, you specifically get the clone to do it)? What if the cloner is used this way on a worker lemming, but it would have been possible to free a single lemming from the crowd instead? Would it count if you merely assign a destructive skill or permanent skill that has no actual real-world effect?

In general - the Cloner is not well suited to any situation where saved count matters, but the quantity of the Cloner skill is not fixed.

[WillLem]

Minim's "fewest lost" is better than "most saved" here, because it's independent of how many cloners you use. There could of course be cases where extra steps are needed to save the cloners (to give the most basic example I can think of, envision a level that's just a direct walk to the exit, with 10 lemmings; you can easily save 10 (lose 0) by doing nothing, but if you were given some Cloners, then in addition to assigning them, you'd have to do something to turn at least one lemming around or else it becomes lose-1), but this I suspect is quite uncommon among the official levles.

Why is fewest lost better? Have a look at my replays - these were not easy solutions at all! Maximum saves is a very difficult challenge.

If fewest lost is the only point of the challenge and all other contribution to this thread is simply a nuisance (which is the impression I'm getting so far ), then I'll create another thread where maximum saves is the aim. I was going to do this as a challenge anyway!

[Proxima]

I assure you, it's equally frustrating for me when I try to help things run more smoothly and it's read as an attack, but hey, that's communication on the internet. It's hard to judge the tone of voice a post is written in, so it's easy for a small misunderstanding to lead to a big upset. I hope that won't stop us cooperating, since this looks like being a fun challenge (and it's been a long time since there was any activity here in Challenges).

N of each what? To be honest, I don't quite understand Minim's format.

Okay, I think that's the root of the disagreement, so let's go over this. The idea is to rank solutions by the highest number of an individual skill used. In other words, 8 fencers and 8 disarmers is "better" than 9 fencers and 1 stoner. The former solution would be possible with a skillset of 8 of each skill; the latter requires at least 9.

That means that although there are 10 cloners in the level file given, firstly, you can't use them freely because if you have, for example, a 2-of-each solution, you are making it worse by using extra cloners; secondly, if a level was not solvable with 10 of each, but might be solvable with a larger number of each, you are allowed to modify the level and report a solution for the larger number.

Just to be clear, I have nothing against you reporting the total number of skills used; it's just not part of this challenge as Minim originally proposed it, and so I wanted to make sure we are tackling the same challenge so as to avoid unnecessary effort.

 

I don't understand what you're saying here. I have saved 100% plus the ten cloners

What I'm saying is that in terms of number of lemmings lost, it's equally good to save 50/50 as it is to save 60/50 with ten cloners. So the number of lemmings lost is a better way to write up the result, because that makes it really clear for the reader how good a solution is -- especially as we get to harder levels where we might well end up going over the 10-of-each for some levels.

The fact that I've gone for maximum saves is just as much of a challenge as going for minimum skills/losses, because quite often the solutions require quite extensive work in order not to lose any Lemmings

Indeed, that was ccexplore's point -- both versions of the challenge are interesting. What I'm hoping for is that eventually we'll have a list of the best results for each level in both categories: smallest N-of-each first and minimum losses second, and the other way around.

I'm looking forward to having a go at this as soon as I have NL reinstalled

[Proxima]

Why is fewest lost better? Have a look at my replays - these were not easy solutions at all! Maximum saves is a very difficult challenge.

So is fewest lost, because it's the same challenge. Given the same level and two solutions to it, the solution that loses fewer is the same as the solution that saves more.*

All that namida and I are saying is that reporting the solution in an "X lemmings lost" format is clearer. Yes, X = 0 for all the Fun levels, but that may not be true throughout the entire game.

*Except for Crazy 11 in DOS Lemmings with the nuke glitch. But that's not relevant here.

If fewest lost is the only point of the challenge and all other contribution to this thread is simply a nuisance (which is the impression I'm getting so far ), then I'll create another thread where maximum saves is the aim. I was going to do this as a challenge anyway!

So I just want to make clear, you are not a nuisance, this is just a small misunderstanding to which we are trying to add clarity. Please don't create another thread for the same challenge.

[WillLem]

I assure you, it's equally frustrating for me when I try to help things run more smoothly and it's read as an attack, but hey, that's communication on the internet. It's hard to judge the tone of voice a post is written in, so it's easy for a small misunderstanding to lead to a big upset. I hope that won't stop us cooperating, since this looks like being a fun challenge (and it's been a long time since there was any activity here in Challenges).

I'm sure we can move forward positively and co-operatively. After all, this is a great forum to be part of and I find these challenges very interesting! Apologies for the misunderstanding.

I think my initial upset was more to do with the fact that I was fresh from a session battling with the levels making sure I got maximum saves each time, and I didn't get the fanfare of praise for my fantastic solutions that I was hoping for(!)

Joking aside, it's nice to be acknowledged when you're trying to contribute positively to a group effort. I do get that this isn't always the first thing on people's minds tho, and also that my contribution is an interpretation of the challenge rather than meeting it directly, which may or may not be helpful!

N of each what? To be honest, I don't quite understand Minim's format.

Okay, I think that's the root of the disagreement, so let's go over this. The idea is to rank solutions by the highest number of an individual skill used. In other words, 8 fencers and 8 disarmers is "better" than 9 fencers and 1 stoner. The former solution would be possible with a skillset of 8 of each skill; the latter requires at least 9.

What I'm saying is that in terms of number of lemmings lost, it's equally good to save 50/50 as it is to save 60/50 with ten cloners. So the number of lemmings lost is a better way to write up the result, because that makes it really clear for the reader how good a solution is -- especially as we get to harder levels where we might well end up going over the 10-of-each for some levels.

OK... I get it now, I've updated my original post accordingly so it's more useful on these particular points. Thanks for the explanation!

Edit - in fact, I've realised that there have been times when I could have sometimes used Shimmiers to stop Stackers mid-stack rather than always Walkers... this would bring the numbers down as well...!

Understanding is a wonderful thing.

The fact that I've gone for maximum saves is just as much of a challenge as going for minimum skills/losses, because quite often the solutions require quite extensive work in order not to lose any Lemmings

Indeed, that was ccexplore's point -- both versions of the challenge are interesting. What I'm hoping for is that eventually we'll have a list of the best results for each level in both categories: smallest N-of-each first and minimum losses second, and the other way around.

I'm looking forward to having a go at this as soon as I have NL reinstalled

In that case, if everyone's happy for me to go ahead with the maximum saves/minimum losses effort and deprioritise the skills part of the challenge for now, this suits my playing style better to be honest (N.B - I always generally aim to use the minimum number of skills anyway). My lists/solutions will therefore point to what's needed for maximum saves, being fairly liberal with the skills wherever needed.

[Proxima]

I think my initial upset was more to do with the fact that I was fresh from a session battling with the levels making sure I got maximum saves each time, and I didn't get the fanfare of praise for my fantastic solutions that I was hoping for(!)

Understandable! However, I'm going to attempt this myself without looking at other people's replays -- I will have a look afterwards!

Here's my first batch of results. I've attached replays for:

Fun 3, 2 of each 100%
Fun 8, 2 of each 100%
Fun 11, 2 of each lose 4
Fun 13, 1 of each 100%
Fun 24, 2 of each lose 2 (note: this still does not match the result from the old thread... neat solution though!)

Added these results to the OP of the topic.

[ccexplore]

Joking aside, it's nice to be acknowledged when you're trying to contribute positively to a group effort. I do get that this isn't always the first thing on people's minds tho

Ok, that's fair.  It is kind of true that we sometimes tend to not comment much on each other's efforts on these challenge threads save for the really impressive solutions every now and then.  I haven't had a chance to look at any specific solutions but I'm sure you made great efforts towards a good number of them, and every contribution helps.  Please don't let the lack of acknowledgement discourage you, the challenges are as much for your own enjoyment trying to meet them as they are for others to observe.

my contribution is an interpretation of the challenge rather than meeting it directly, which may or may not be helpful!

For recordkeeping purposes, we need to settle on a specific, fixed set of rules to define a particular challenge.  Otherwise it becomes chaos as people start tweaking both the rules and the levels to make a solution work out.  The records lost meaning when you don't know exactly what kind of extra "interpretations" gets included for the solution to work.  It's better to just say the level's impossible if that turns out to be the case.

Indeed, for clear recordkeeping we even insist on specifying what specific game engine or port is used for each challenge (eg. NeoLemmix for this one).  Because sometimes a solution that works in DOS Lemmings may not work or required much modification to work in other ports like Amiga Lemmings, because almost every game had slight variations in certain parts of their physics, and any little difference can potentially be just the thing that makes or breaks a particular solution, especially when it comes to challenges.

That's not to say a challenge-caliber solution involving tweaked rules and tweaked levels are useless; they are just not suitable for reporting results for that one particular challenge.  For a one-off, you can consider making it a custom level in your own pack.  Or if you can apply certain additional rules usefully across many levels, maybe you can start a new challenge thread with those rules.  Sometimes they evolve naturally: for example there once was a thread about "how many levels can be beaten in under a minute?"  Obviously not all levels can and that's fine.  Once we got through that, we started exploring variations like lowest number of minutes to beat the remaining levels, that naturally evolve from the original challenge.  I can imagine that we may eventually address the levels that cannot be solved for this challenge with some new variation evolved from the current challenge, like maybe "how few old skills do you need to add to solve" or something along that line.

[WillLem]

I haven't had a chance to look at any specific solutions but I'm sure you made great efforts towards a good number of them, and every contribution helps.  Please don't let the lack of acknowledgement discourage you, the challenges are as much for your own enjoyment trying to meet them as they are for others to observe.

---

I can imagine that we may eventually address the levels that cannot be solved for this challenge with some new variation evolved from the current challenge, like maybe "how few old skills do you need to add to solve" or something along that line.

Thanks for your reply, I guess coz I'm still somewhat new I'm still getting used to the way things are approached on the forum, and I'm hoping that I can contribute something worthwhile in the meantime. Hence the maximum-saves angle - perhaps my results could indicate the minimum skills needed to save 100%, for instance. And then people can try to beat those scores, of course!

I was intending to do a Lemmings remix featuring both old and new skills, making it possible to save all Lemmings in every level. People's results & solutions for this challenge would help massively in getting that together. (Or - have I missed the boat and this is something that's already been done or in the pipeline?)

For recordkeeping purposes, we need to settle on a specific, fixed set of rules to define a particular challenge.  Otherwise it becomes chaos as people start tweaking both the rules and the levels to make a solution work out.

---

That's not to say a challenge-caliber solution involving tweaked rules and tweaked levels are useless; they are just not suitable for reporting results for that one particular challenge.

This is fair enough. I do need to understand the point of the challenges more fully before participating, I think. This one just caught my eye because it's very close to an idea I'd had and I couldn't wait to dive in and get involved!

Thanks for the kind comments btw.

[Minim]

Wow, so much has gone on.   I did the first three levels of Taxing last night. Earlier this morning I just scanned all of WillLem's replays.

N of each what? To be honest, I don't quite understand Minim's format.

Okay, I think that's the root of the disagreement, so let's go over this. The idea is to rank solutions by the highest number of an individual skill used. In other words, 8 fencers and 8 disarmers is "better" than 9 fencers and 1 stoner. The former solution would be possible with a skillset of 8 of each skill; the latter requires at least 9.

That means that although there are 10 cloners in the level file given, firstly, you can't use them freely because if you have, for example, a 2-of-each solution, you are making it worse by using extra cloners; secondly, if a level was not solvable with 10 of each, but might be solvable with a larger number of each, you are allowed to modify the level and report a solution for the larger number.

Just to be clear, I have nothing against you reporting the total number of skills used; it's just not part of this challenge as Minim originally proposed it, and so I wanted to make sure we are tackling the same challenge so as to avoid unnecessary effort.

Thanks for clearing that up, Proxima. While I was posting I do recall someone explaining Rule #2 on a separate challenge thread. That happened to be on the next page of the board.

So, after looking at WillLem's solutions, I noticed that he was using up all 10 Cloners on every level. I ignored the unnecessary cloners and inspected on the rest. As Proxima mentioned, it was one of those things I forgot to clarify. The only edited results I can accept are skill changes, like Tricky 8. Terrain and object modifications are forbidden. That's why Rule #1 - Solve the level - is first priority.

I think WillLem's save all idea is a more useful order than the other way round, particularly so that we can use the same replays for later levels. As soon as I started playing the Taxing levels I completely forgot that some of them are repeats of earlier levels with usually tougher requirements and less time. Taxing 1 was a perfect example of that.

Now, some spoilery comments on WillLem's save all solutions.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fun 5: Great solution! Your Stacker-Walker-Platformer safety bridge is inspired. Now the question remains, can we save that fencer that you used for the top of that first crystal on the left?

Fun 12 & 15: Great use of the stacker on steps to hold the others back! Worker lemmings are usually NOT associated with Fun 12. I wonder if the same trick for that level can be used when criteria switch.

Fun 13: Good use of scenery here. Never thought about the left side, but after looking I was able to top that by replacing one of your holding walkers with a shimmier, making the final solution for this level 3 of each.

Fun 14: This is easily doable with 5 fencers.

Fun 16: This is the only level where you lost a lemming with a stoner. I beat this record while I was doing the Taxing equivalent. Here's a 6-skill lose 0 replay, one which already works for the harder level.

Fun 28: Great job using the outside route, and the use of swimmers. I thought with the walls surrounding both pools that swimmers would either never get out, or fall to their death; but you proved me wrong.

Tricky 8: I reduced this to 14 of each. I fenced through the tiny wall before the exit and therefore saved two stackers. I'll still be re-uploading the level with 16 of each though.

Tricky 11: I replaced one of the stacker stopping walkers with a shimmier, making this level 6 of each.

Tricky 18: My Fun 2 replay works here too, so that makes it 2 of each.

Tricky 19: I can improve this to 1 of each using a stacker walker to scale the 12-pixel wall.

[ccexplore]

Fun 12 improved to 1 of each, lose 2 OR 2 of each, lose 0

[edit: looks like WillLem already did the 2 each lose 0, removing attachment.  Minim's post hadn't been updated with WillLem's result at the time I tried this level so I wasn't aware.]

[WillLem]

So, after looking at WillLem's solutions, I noticed that he was using up all 10 Cloners on every level. I ignored the unnecessary cloners and inspected on the rest. As Proxima mentioned, it was one of those things I forgot to clarify. The only edited results I can accept are skill changes, like Tricky 8. Terrain and object modifications are forbidden. That's why Rule #1 - Solve the level - is first priority.

No worries, I mainly did this for my own satisfaction. Like I said, for the purposes of this challenge by all means ignore any solutions where I altered terrain (there are only 2 of them, 3 if you count Taxing 17 which is the same layout as Fun 23).

I think WillLem's save all idea is a more useful order than the other way round, particularly so that we can use the same replays for later levels.

Thanks! And yes - it's quite useful being able to load up a replay from an earlier level to fulfil a later level. Through doing this, however, I managed to improve a few of my records in the process.

And in reply to the comments on the solutions:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fun 5: Great solution! Your Stacker-Walker-Platformer safety bridge is inspired. Now the question remains, can we save that fencer that you used for the top of that first crystal on the left?

Thanks! Took me a good while to figure this out - I wanted to avoid using the stoner for the drop at the left crystal at all costs. Managed to get it down to 9 of each by stacking over the crystal rather than fencing through it (replay attached above) - good shout!

Fun 14: This is easily doable with 5 fencers.

Haha yeah, I know - I realised that when the level came up again as Tricky 30. I've now updated my replay and results accordingly.

Fun 16: This is the only level where you lost a lemming with a stoner. I beat this record while I was doing the Taxing equivalent. Here's a 6-skill lose 0 replay, one which already works for the harder level.

This must be a mistake - so far I haven't lost a single Lemming the entire game! Have another look at my re-posted replays, maybe something went wrong when I uploaded them first time. My solution to Fun 16/Taxing 3 still uses 10 stackers, so you beat me on skill count anyway (great solution btw). But mine looks neater!

Fun 28: Great job using the outside route, and the use of swimmers. I thought with the walls surrounding both pools that swimmers would either never get out, or fall to their death; but you proved me wrong.

Thanks! One of my favourite things to do is explore the outer terrain of the original levels. It's great that NeoLemmix allows you to do this.

Tricky 8: I reduced this to 14 of each. I fenced through the tiny wall before the exit and therefore saved two stackers. I'll still be re-uploading the level with 16 of each though.

Of course!! Well spotted.

I've had great fun doing these. Check out my updated replays and see if there's anything else you could improve skill-count-wise whilst still keeping maximum saves.

[Proxima]

Fun 24: 2 of each, 100%. This improves on the result from the old thread.

[WillLem]

Fun 24: 2 of each, 100%. This improves on the result from the old thread.

That's a good one!

Playing this pack with only the new skills makes you an expert at using stacker/platformer combos to build upwards.

[Proxima]

And bouncing on that, here's Mayhem 3 with 4 of each. (The Fun 24 solution no longer works because of the time limit.) In the old thread, namida didn't find any solution to this one.

[WillLem]

And bouncing on that, here's Mayhem 3 with 4 of each. (The Fun 24 solution no longer works because of the time limit.) In the old thread, namida didn't find any solution to this one.

Just done this one myself! I needed 7 of each tho... (solution attached).

ALSO! I've now found a way to beat We all fall down 1 of each, 100% saved (also attached!) See if you can figure it out before you watch my replay! I got the idea from my solution to Mayhem 3, incidentally.

[ccexplore]

Ok, I got a "solution" for Tricky 28 ("Lost Something?"), but I don't think it should actually count.  The level in the original is solid steel for the steel block where the exit sits.  But the NeoLemmix conversion has all those decorative vines as regular terrain apparently cutting into the steel, making it no longer completely indestructible.  It seems a little wrong to count this as a solution when arguably the conversion of the level to NeoLemmix is not done accurately.  The decorative vines shouldn't be turning the steel into partial steel.

The level is probably impossible (ignoring nuke solutions) if the steel is completely solid, but as disappointing as that may be, it's a more honest result in my opinion.  Thoughts?

[edit: struck out part of sentence which is now proven false, see below]

[ccexplore]

The level is probably impossible (ignoring nuke solutions) if the steel is completely solid

So turns out it wasn't so bad to go with a nuke solution for this level, and hence the level is no longer impossible even with completely solid steel.  Attached is an attempt that uses 18 cloners (plus a few other skills) and loses 26 (remember to edit the level to increase the skill counts).  Given that I ended up saving 92 (level requires 90), it looks like I could probably get by with a few less cloners, and it's probably possible to lower the loss count a little as well.  Will leave that for others to explore.  The solution should probably also be re-verified (but the overall concept should still work) once the level is fixed to make the steel fully solid if we decide on that.

[WillLem]

Finally completed this challenge! I've now attached my replays for all levels to my results post above.

There were some very challenging levels amongst this lot, and I'm definitely feeling going ahead with a remix pack of the original game featuring both sets of skills. Playing through this has given me some great ideas of how to use the newer skills, so hopefully it will be an interesting pack.

Please let me know if this idea has already been done before I go ahead! I probably won't feature every level, just maybe the best 20 or 30 in a compilation pack.

I'll keep an eye on this challenge as well, some very interesting solutions appearing here!

WillLem

[Crane]

I managed to complete some of the harder ones for you.  These are my first attempts, so I'm not sure if they can be improved in regards to skills used.

[Crane]

And some more!

Mayhem 8, 12, 23 and 28 are impossible.

[Crane]

Here's one for Taxing 16.

[Minim]

I did four more Taxing levels yesterday: 4, 5, 7 and 8. Thanks to its layout, 4 is indeed annoying and requires a great deal of motivation. 5 is also fiddly, especially when you're trying to break the bars with a fencer. I will update the levels again as soon as I submit everyone's results.

Comments on WillLem's Taxing solutions. I'll have a look at Mayhem later.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Taxing 2: I managed to reach the exit with one stacker. I controlled the lemmings a little differently too. Here's my 4-skill solution if you need it.

Taxing 7: I beat this record by using your Tricky 4 technique. I was also able to stretch the bridge at the top to 4 platformers. This makes it and Tricky 4 8 of each.

Taxing 8: The first 4 fencers are obvious, but I've proved that you don't need the fifth one to free those lemmings. Skillful stacking out of the pit should guide them onto that bridge without too much trouble.

Taxing 13: You went over the last one-way wall which is fine, but there is enough room under the arrows with a well placed fencer. This should hopefully save up on those building skills.

Taxing 15: Again, you used one fencer too many here! I was able to substitute one of the fencers with a stacker, matching the number of platformers and thus making it 6 of each.

Taxing 16, 19 and 22: Because of the short time limit, you unintentionally ended up losing some lemmings on 16 despite completing the level. I upped the release rate for you to make this save all solution certain. There's also a trick while safety building that if you let a Glider stack all eight steps, and give him a shimmier while he shrugs, he will jump on top of the stack and you can then build another tall stack. Clever, huh? Now see if you can use this trick on all the other steep drop levels. I was able to get Taxing 22 down to 4 of each using this method.

Taxing 28: Great teamwork to control the crowd here. Well done!

Comments on Crane's Solutions

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Taxing 26: You ended up with a poorer result than WillLem because you missed that extra pixel on the lower right side of the terrain, and ended up gliding all 10 lemmings at the top. However, that fencer underneath the creator's platformer to control the crowd is inspired! We can combine the two to make the final result.

Taxing 28: I was able to save that lemming you splatted with a holding stacker and shimmier, making the final result 1 of each, lost 1.

Mayhem 1: Because you used all 10 stackers for the big ascent (Which is no surprise given its horrible layout), I'll probably reupload the level and make the skill total 20 so that a save-all solution is hopefully possible.

Mayhem 2: I beat this solution by using the blue wall (Although it's still fiddly to execute, there are some annoying steel bits hidden underneath the terrain), making it 4 of each.

Mayhem 4: WillLem beat you to it with his Fun 25 solution by a fencer. So the result is 7 of each.

Mayhem 16: You forgot to turn up the release rate at the end! Otherwise, this and 27 are indeed straightforward solutions, and thus I've counted your result in.

Mayhem 29: I swapped the stoner with a cloner and stacker, making the final solution 5 of each. Good job stretching the platformer bridge here.

Mayhem 30: Good job on this very long level. I think this can still be improved though with some smart stacking on that pit to the left of the exit hill. Hopefully it won't be too steep to execute this.

Finally, my comment on ccexplore's Tricky 28 solution. I understand that this is contrary to DOS mechanics, but I'm banning any terrain and steel adjustments to all levels. So this level layout stays the same, which also means, your lower result will count. Well spotted using the clear physics and NL mechanics to take advantage of the non-steel parts of that platform below the exit.

[Proxima]

Please let me know if this idea has already been done before I go ahead! I probably won't feature every level, just maybe the best 20 or 30 in a compilation pack.

We started something similar in the old-formats days as a collaboration pack, but it didn't get very far. Maybe enough time has passed that it's worth giving the project another go, obviously in the latest NL version.

[Proxima]

Ok, I got a "solution" for Tricky 28 ("Lost Something?"), but I don't think it should actually count.  The level in the original is solid steel for the steel block where the exit sits.  But the NeoLemmix conversion has all those decorative vines as regular terrain apparently cutting into the steel, making it no longer completely indestructible.  It seems a little wrong to count this as a solution when arguably the conversion of the level to NeoLemmix is not done accurately.  The decorative vines shouldn't be turning the steel into partial steel.

The culprit here is that "simple autosteel" has been removed from NL. Yet another cull buried away in the small print so that we never had a chance to discuss it. (It took me 15 minutes to find the relevant post, even knowing that it existed!)

[Minim]

I realised I forgot to send my Taxing 2 replays. I'll put them here.

Now, some comments on WillLem's Mayhem Solutions, and then I'll put the updated results up on the OP.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Mayhem 2: I beat this solution by using the blue wall (Although it's still fiddly to execute, as there are some annoying steel bits hidden beneath the terrain), making it 4 of each.

Mayhem 8: I cut this down to 16 by using the stacker-shimmier-glider trick.

Mayhem 10: Cut down to 8 of each. While a symmetrical solution is cool and pleasing to the eye, this is a joke solution, as there's no need to go for both exits at once. As well as going for 1 exit, I used platformers and 1-brick stackers to stretch to it.

Mayhem 19: Used the stacker-shimmier-glider trick again to reduce this one to 4. The position of the entrance also played a cool role in my solution.

Mayhem 29: As Crane proved, you can stretch that bridge on the left to 5 platformers.

Mayhem 30: You used too many stackers to climb up the rocky structure on the right. What Crane did was send a lemming all the way from the left entrance to fence through the one-way arrow.

[WillLem]

Thanks for the comments Minim, here are some replies.

Taxing:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Taxing 16, 19 and 22: Because of the short time limit, you unintentionally ended up losing some lemmings on 16 despite completing the level. I upped the release rate for you to make this save all solution certain. There's also a trick while safety building that if you let a Glider stack all eight steps, and give him a shimmier while he shrugs, he will jump on top of the stack and you can then build another tall stack. Clever, huh? Now see if you can use this trick on all the other steep drop levels. I was able to get Taxing 22 down to 4 of each using this method.

Great work on this trick - it's a good method for when only 1 Lemming has to climb a steep surface, but how would you then get the rest of the pack to follow? EDIT - just seen your solution for Mayhem 19; I guess that's how!

I'm not sure what's going on with my replays if it's showing that I lose some... when playing through the levels, I didn't lose a single Lemming. I've looked again at this particular replay and you're right - some are lost because of the time limit. Maybe it didn't record me upping the release rate, or perhaps I used a previous replay by mistake.

At any rate, thanks for the heads up - I've now re-uploaded my replays pack with the corrected solution for Taxing 16 (this happens to be one of my favourite levels!) Also for Fun 16, which was an old replay from before I decided to go for maximum saves.

Let me know if you notice any more non-save-all replays - I assure you, I found save-all solutions to every level.

Taxing 28: Great teamwork to control the crowd here. Well done!

I really enjoyed finding a save-all solution to this one. I suddenly realised I could actually use those

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

cloners

to good effect in order to achieve this!

This and level 4 were my favourite challenges from this rank. Anything that involves looking more closely at the terrain and how you can use it to your advantage to get around the more obvious obstacles, I love those kind of levels.

And the Mayhem comments:

Mayhem 10: Cut down to 8 of each. While a symmetrical solution is cool and pleasing to the eye, this is a joke solution, as there's no need to go for both exits at once. As well as going for 1 exit, I used platformers and 1-brick stackers to stretch to it.

I know, but it does look awesome, right?

Mayhem 19: Used the stacker-shimmier-glider trick again to reduce this one to 4. The position of the entrance also played a cool role in my solution.

This is genius! I suppose if you focus on using skills in combination with one another to keep the amounts level, it's a good way to find these little tricks.

Mayhem 30: You used too many stackers to climb up the rocky structure on the right. What Crane did was send a lemming all the way from the left entrance to fence through the one-way arrow.[/spoiler]

I've just seen his replay - one of those "wish I'd thought of that" moments! Great work on the solution, Crane.

[WillLem]

Please let me know if this idea has already been done before I go ahead! I probably won't feature every level, just maybe the best 20 or 30 in a compilation pack.

We started something similar in the old-formats days as a collaboration pack, but it didn't get very far. Maybe enough time has passed that it's worth giving the project another go, obviously in the latest NL version.

I might just have to give it a go then. I've identified which levels I'd take on - since a lot of them are duplicates, I'll just use these layouts once. I'll keep it as a background project for now, keep looking closely at people's replays on here to get some inspiration as well.

[namida]

Ok, I got a "solution" for Tricky 28 ("Lost Something?"), but I don't think it should actually count.  The level in the original is solid steel for the steel block where the exit sits.  But the NeoLemmix conversion has all those decorative vines as regular terrain apparently cutting into the steel, making it no longer completely indestructible.  It seems a little wrong to count this as a solution when arguably the conversion of the level to NeoLemmix is not done accurately.  The decorative vines shouldn't be turning the steel into partial steel.

The culprit here is that "simple autosteel" has been removed from NL. Yet another cull buried away in the small print so that we never had a chance to discuss it. (It took me 15 minutes to find the relevant post, even knowing that it existed!)

Simple autosteel has not been culled yet (and has been deprecated since at least the start of new-formats, as evidenced by the lack of editor support), although it's possible that the setting got lost in the old-formats to new-formats conversion.

One issue that does probably exist now - I don't know how well simple autosteel will interact with alpha-blended terrain. Assume it won't work - alpha-blended terrain only gained support after simple autosteel was long since deprecated anyway, so no level should ever feature these two things together.

[namida]

Started the Oh No! levels. Would you believe that Tame 1 confronts us with an impossible level straight away!

I disagree. This solution saves exactly 25 and requires 10 of one skill (the Cloner, specifically) but might be possible to improve a bit - though I can confirm it does not work without at least some Cloners. When it failed with 0, I went straight to trying 10.

With some better crowd control, it's probably possible to reduce the stackers used too.

In fact, I'm pretty sure a more extreme version of this trick (potentially requiring amounts of cloners in the 4 or even 5 digits) could be used for Fun 21 and Fun 23, too. In practice, as the sacrificial lemmings must be kept alive (and out of the way, in most cases) until the trick is triggered, I suspect game lag from the huge number of lemmings would become a problem to ever actually doing this in practice, even if one were to successfully come up with the theoretical solution.

[WillLem]

Started the Oh No! levels. Would you believe that Tame 1 confronts us with an impossible level straight away!

I disagree. This solution saves exactly 25 and requires 10 of one skill (the Cloner, specifically) but might be possible to improve a bit - though I can confirm it does not work without at least some Cloners. When it failed with 0, I went straight to trying 10.

With some better crowd control, it's probably possible to reduce the stackers used too.

Oh yes, the nuke solution... I guess with all of my maximum-saves gusto/obsessiveness I forgot about that!

Amazing that you got exactly 25 btw - how exactly does this trick work?

[namida]

Amazing that you got exactly 25 btw - how exactly does this trick work?

Internally, NeoLemmix keeps a list of all lemmings in the level. At the start of the level, all preplaced lemmings are added to this list, in the order they come in the level's data. Then, each time a lemming is spawned - be it from an entrance or via a cloner - this new lemming is added to the end of the list. Note that a lemming is not removed from this list when it exits / dies / etc, it just gets marked as "no longer active", though this distinction does not matter for the purpose of this trick (it can matter in other contexts, eg. manual editing of replay data).

When the nuke is used, a 5 second countdown is immediately assigned to the first lemming in this list that is still alive and active (any that are no-longer-active are skipped). Then on the next frame, the next lemming on the list gets one, and so on, until every lemming has gotten one. (Prior to V12.7, zombies were skipped just like no-longer-active lemmings are. As of V12.7, zombies are no longer skipped; all lemmings that are still active will receive a countdown, one per frame, even zombies and neutrals.) As soon as the nuke is activated, hatches also stop releasing any further lemmings.

The trick in my solution above is that the first lemming is allowed to go into the crowd, but the next 34 are contained off to the left. The final 15 are then allowed into the crowd again, and the crowd gets gathered above the exit. Nuke is activated. The first lemming begins his countdown. The next 34 frames are spent assigning countdowns to the lemmings that were seperated from the crowd; by the time countdowns get back to lemmings in the crowd, it provides them with enough time to exit. Thus, 15 of the 16 lemmings in the crowd exit. The cloners are just used to bring that 15 up to 25, so the save requirement is met. (In a more elaborate setup, like the hypothetical "extreme cases" for Fun 21 and 23, you might need cloners to actually get lemmings to explode at the right time, or to add delays between countdowns starting. In this specific case, they're only needed to meet the save requirement.)

It's no coincidence that I got exactly 25 - it's because I allowed 16 lemmings (one of whom is lost due to exploding) to go to the right, then add 10 cloners. I suspect it's possible to allow a few more than 16 (though not a full 26, hence why some cloners are needed - if you try this, some lemmings will explode before exiting, remove the ground below the exit, and thus leave others unable to exit either; it's critical to seperate some lemmings off but keep them alive) to go to the right; which could either result in using fewer than 10 cloners, or saving more than 25 lemmings. I'll leave optimizing the solution to someone else; I just wanted to prove there is a solution.

[namida]

On a side note - for the downloads in the first post, I really strongly suggest changing the folder names (and maybe the pack title in info.nxmi too) from the ones used by the regular versions of these packs...

[ccexplore]

In fact, I'm pretty sure a more extreme version of this trick (potentially requiring amounts of cloners in the 4 or even 5 digits) could be used for Fun 21 and Fun 23, too.

Yes, that's exactly why I asked you about this a few posts ago:

On a related note, are there upper limits built into the game?  If we can have potentially unlimited cloners, I do wonder if we can get some crazy nuke solutions for some levels that can still work out, by virtue of having cloned a crazy high number of lemmings so some would take nearly forever to actually explode?  (You'd use the nuke as a cheat way to get the effects of bombers.)  Or perhaps using nuke as part of solution should be disallowed altogether?

I'd take back that last part now though, as we have at least two levels now where a nuke solution is practical to execute, and we've never disallowed nuke solutions in past challenges either.  But yeah, for levels like Fun 21, the amount of cloned lemmings likely required is not something I'll have the patience to bother.

[Minim]

This is genius! I suppose if you focus on using skills in combination with one another to keep the amounts level, it's a good way to find these little tricks.

Hey, thanks for the compliment on Mayhem 19. I'm proud of that one too.
So, at this stage I thought I might send my comments on the Tame levels, then my response to namida's side note, and finally post some more results for Tricky.

Now the Tame comments...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1: (Namida's solution) I had a feeling the nuke was the only way down here. Well executed, and excellent crowd control! I like the way you kept the non-important lemmings well away from ruining the solution.

6 and 10: Beat you to them! It turns out my trick wasn't necessary after all for both levels. I cloned a glider down to that rocky overhang and platformed a safety bridge. The final save-all solution for both levels are now 2 of each.

8: Great solution. The raised clone platformer is inspired. Well done!

11: I "jumped" over the stalagmite, saving the extra fencer you used and making the final solution 1 of each.

13: Great job there using my Mayhem 19 trick. Well done!

14: The wall to the left is not usually used as a holding area for this level. Well done taking advantage of that.

20: Haha! Brilliant. One that reminds me of one of my first threads.

Namida's side note: I didn't quite understand on first glance about which folders needed to be changed, but eventually I just added the "Original_" to the filename "Lemmings_newskills" if that's what you meant. Please clarify if not. The info.nxmi file was changed and having done this for the first time, I found it quite fun actually. I'll try and do this info file for OhNo too.

Now, some more Tricky results from last night.
6: 3 of each
I used the stacker as a safety net here.

7: 4 of each, lost 4
8: 7 of each, lost 11 (This one was hard. At least I was able to share the stoners and stackers for ascent.)

9: 2 of each, lost 1
This exploits the gap on left side of the landscape.

11: 1 of each, lost 1
12: 1 of each, lost 5
Great challenge here for a coffee break! Concept replay atttached. I'm sure someone else can reduce the lemmings lost number.

13: 3 of each, lost 6
Another annoying level, as stretching the smallish gap with stoners and stackers appears to be out of reach. The Fencing up to the exit is awesome though!

[ccexplore]

Minor improvement of Fun 17 to "1 of each, lost 20 OR 2 of each, lost 0"

[Minim]

More Tricky Results and improvements.
14: 5 of each, lost 4

20: 5 of each, lost 1 OR 6 of each, lost 0.
Replay for the lose 1 solution. No need for the other replay because the stoner on the left can easily be replaced by the stacker with up to three walkers available to keep the other lemmings from falling off.

21: 3 of each
Went around the body of the second "6" sparing the fencer that was instead used to cut the middle 6 again.

24: 2 of each, lost 2
I reached the ledge with 1x, but lost too many lemmings, so 2 looks more likely to be the final result here for fewest x.

25: 2 of each, lost 2 OR 4 of each, lost 0
Found a quicker and more reliable way to contain the others. Replays attached.

27: 4 of each, lost 2

29: 3 of each, lost 1 OR 4 of each, lost 0
Replay attached. Used clear physics (including trigger area placements) to my advantage here. The counterpart is easy, as I swapped a left-edge Stoner with a cloner and stacker.

[namida]

Namida's side note: I didn't quite understand on first glance about which folders needed to be changed, but eventually I just added the "Original_" to the filename "Lemmings_newskills" if that's what you meant. Please clarify if not. The info.nxmi file was changed and having done this for the first time, I found it quite fun actually. I'll try and do this info file for OhNo too.

As in, rename the folders "Lemmings" and "OhNoMoreLemmings" to something else, so they don't overwrite the normal versions of these packs (and vice versa).

[WillLem]

Namida's side note: I didn't quite understand on first glance about which folders needed to be changed, but eventually I just added the "Original_" to the filename "Lemmings_newskills" if that's what you meant. Please clarify if not. The info.nxmi file was changed and having done this for the first time, I found it quite fun actually. I'll try and do this info file for OhNo too.

As in, rename the folders "Lemmings" and "OhNoMoreLemmings" to something else, so they don't overwrite the normal versions of these packs (and vice versa).

I've re-titled mine "NeoLemmings". I've even done a logo if anyone wants it (although tbh I'll probably be using this title and logo for my remix pack!)

[ccexplore]

Fun 30 improved to "1 of each, lost 1 OR 2 of each, lost 0".

[WillLem]

Fun 30 improved to "1 of each, lost 1 OR 2 of each, lost 0".

Ha! Your save-all solution is brilliant. Good job on Tricky 25 as well btw; I need to keep looking out for those glider-cloner opportunities!

[Minim]

Namida's side note: I didn't quite understand on first glance about which folders needed to be changed, but eventually I just added the "Original_" to the filename "Lemmings_newskills" if that's what you meant. Please clarify if not. The info.nxmi file was changed and having done this for the first time, I found it quite fun actually. I'll try and do this info file for OhNo too.

As in, rename the folders "Lemmings" and "OhNoMoreLemmings" to something else, so they don't overwrite the normal versions of these packs (and vice versa).

Now I understand what's happening. I found the folders I needed to rename and I'll put them up in the next upload. Hopefully, these will be better.
EDIT: I've uploaded them now.

Fun 30 improved to "1 of each, lost 1 OR 2 of each, lost 0".

Ha! Your save-all solution is brilliant. Good job on Tricky 25 as well btw; I need to keep looking out for those glider-cloner opportunities!

Credit for Tricky 25 goes to me actually. I just renamed the replay like ccx's. Thanks anyway! And yes, I saw ccx's Fun 30 replays. Good job. We'll see if these are able to work on the repeated level with the 99 RR.

[WillLem]

Credit for Tricky 25 goes to me actually. I just renamed the replay like ccx's. Thanks anyway!

My mistake! It was indeed your replay I was looking at - great stuff. I've now uploaded my results for Crazy into my original post. (I've combined my results for the two games into one post now to keep things a bit tidier...!

Enjoy! And I'm sure you'll improve on some of these - I was a bit more liberal with skills today.

[ccexplore]

Fun 5 improved to "4 of each, lost 44" (thank you low save requirement!).  The inverse is likely 9 of each lost 0, but don't have patience to try it right now.

[ccexplore]

Adapting my Fun 5 solution to its repeat, Tricky 16, here's "6 of each, lost 1" for that level.

[Crane]

I've improved my Mayhem 30 score.  I've reduced it to 7 skills, 1 loss, or 8 skills, 0 losses (replace the Stoner with a Stacker + Walker. or a Platformer).

[Minim]

Comments on WillLem's Crazy solutions

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

6: I spared a stacker easily here. Just put your first stacker where your second stacker was and you have your worker and holding pit.

7: Good job on this tedious level. I was able to beat it though by "jumping" onto that wall saving the last stacker. I also started the stack by where the entrance is to save a shimmier. The result is now 11 of each.

9: Now 3 of each thanks to advanced lemming control. Replay attached.

10 and 17: Hey, these are more like it. Well done! And phew, you just got those last lemmings home in time. I improved on 17 though with 5 of each. I saved the first platformer by walking up onto the brick platform. The second one wasn't necessary as I was able to re-position the stackers to make sure the lemmings land safely.

12: Now down to 4 of each. There was just enough height to lay three raised stackers as a safety net.

13: Great job using the wall route! However, you had a spare stacker & shimmier to free the others, rather than a fencer. This can be done with 3 of each.

14: Again, one fencer too many here. Not to worry though, I used a simple stacker-walker to reach the exit. This makes the result 4 of each.

15: Now 6 of each. A similar trick to what I used in my improvement to Taxing 14. Replay attached.

19: Nice use of teamwork to get the stacker ahead of that platformer. Impressive stuff! However, I found a way to save that first fencer along with a bit of Lemming Express crowd control. The result is now 2 of each. Replay attached.

20: Just modified a few skill placements where the extra stacker was not needed. For reaching the tall ice block, I swapped two of the three stackers with a platformer.

As for Crazy 11: Unfortunately, time changes are banned in this contest. So your result is regretfully 10 of each, lost 40, which I've improved to just 1x. This one will need extensive research though (And probably a mathematical genius too) to minimise the lemmings lost count and skill count here.

Other replays

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fun 5 & Tricky 16: (ccexplore) With some levels cutting the outside area off completely, They are easily overlooked. Good job taking advantage of that.

Mayhem 30: (Crane) Nicely done! I used one of your tricks to improve the result on Crazy 17.

And now, some of my Taxing Results and improvements.
12: 5 of each, lost 5
Found a way to save the sixth platformer. Replay attached.

13: 3 of each
Skill knowledge, height knowledge and precise skill placements are key here, and it also exploits the same trick I used to improve the next level.

14: 12 of each
Replay attached. Thanks to the terrain layout, I managed to contain the lemmings with 1 stacker and use the rest of the stackers to stretch across the water where necessary, saving 2 platformers! I'm sure 11 can't be ruled out when the criteria reverse.

When I have time I will add the results in and re-upload the OhNo level pack with changes to Crazy 7.

[ccexplore]

Tweaked Proxima's Mayhem 3 solutions to "2 of each, lost 1 OR 3 of each, lost 0".  Despite some leftover skills in 2 of each, one of each seems to be just out of reach so far.

[Crane]

Mayhem 8.  11 skills, 10 losses.
Mayhem 18.  6 skills, 2 losses.

[WillLem]

Comments on WillLem's Crazy solutions
---
9: Now 3 of each thanks to advanced lemming control. Replay attached.

10 and 17: Hey, these are more like it. Well done! And phew, you just got those last lemmings home in time. I improved on 17 though with 5 of each. I saved the first platformer by walking up onto the brick platform. The second one wasn't necessary as I was able to re-position the stackers to make sure the lemmings land safely.
---
15: Now 6 of each. A similar trick to what I used in my improvement to Taxing 14. Replay attached.

19: Nice use of teamwork to get the stacker ahead of that platformer. Impressive stuff! However, I found a way to save that first fencer along with a bit of Lemming Express crowd control. The result is now 2 of each. Replay attached.

Nice replays. Crowd control is something I'm still getting used to; your solution to Crazy 9 is perfect timing, great to watch!

I've been really trying to minimise skills, but you seem to have a bit more pixel-precise tenacity than I do so you're able to get that bit extra out of the different skills. I'm just happy if the solution looks pretty and gets everyone home.

As for Crazy 11: Unfortunately, time changes are banned in this contest. So your result is regretfully 10 of each, lost 40, which I've improved to just 1x. This one will need extensive research though (And probably a mathematical genius too) to minimise the lemmings lost count and skill count here.

Yeah, I thought so... still, I had fun plowing through all that decorative terrain. This will be a good one to remix.

I've now finished Wild and Wicked; replays/results above. I'm happier with my solutions to these than the Crazy lot, generally. A bit more like the quality of my Tame solutions. Have fun improving on them!

[Crane]

Another improvement.  7 skills, 0 losses for Mayhem 18.  In truth, the 6 skills, 2 losses solution might be reducible to 6 skills, 1 loss if the leftmost Stoner is replaced with a Glider/Cloner combo.

(Note... on the overall tally on the first page, Mayhem 30 should say "7 skills, 1 loss OR 8 skills, 0 losses", unless you found a way to save that lemming.

[Crane]

First attempts at the first few Wicked levels.

Wicked 1: 5 skills, 0 losses
Wicked 2: impossible
Wicked 3: 3 skills, 0 losses (can be easily changed to 2 skills, 1 loss if you replace the first Stacker with a Stoner)
Wicked 4: 9 skills, 0 losses (can be easily changed to 8 skills, 1 loss if you replace the rightmost Stacker with a Stoner)
Wicked 5: 1 skill, 0 losses
Wicked 6: 5 skills, 2 losses
Wicked 7: 3 skills, 0 losses
Wicked 8: 4 skills, 0 losses (no replay attached, but simple enough... 4 Fencers, one after the other, then a Platformer, and use a Glider or Walker on the lemming that will step off the incomplete bridge).

There also seems to be a player bug... changing the release rate while the game is paused doesn't get recorded in the replays.

[ccexplore]

Finally got Fun 8 down to 1 of each, lost 0.  Also works on the repeat, Tricky 22.

[ccexplore]

Tweaked Proxima's Mayhem 3 solutions to "2 of each, lost 1 OR 3 of each, lost 0".  Despite some leftover skills in 2 of each, one of each seems to be just out of reach so far.

Finally found the elusive "1 of each, lost 1" solution for Mayhem 3, it's a totally different solution from Proxima's.

[ccexplore]

Fun 24 (easier version of Mayhem 3) improved to 1 of each, lost 0.  This is yet different solution from Mayhem 3's 1 of each lost 1, but cannot work on Mayhem 3 due to its tighter time limit.

[Crane]

Nice work ccexplore.  I decided to have a bash at some of the later Havoc levels, because why not?!

Havoc 10 - 1 skill, 0 losses
Havoc 11 - impossible
Havoc 17 - 1 skill, 1 loss OR 2 skills, 0 losses
Havoc 18 - 9 skills, 0 losses
Havoc 19 - 4 skills, 0 losses
Havoc 20 - 5 skills, 0 losses

[Crane]

And a handful of earlier Havoc levels.

Havoc 1 - 3 skills, 2 losses OR 4 skills, 0 losses
Havoc 5 - 4 skills, 0 losses
Havoc 9 - 3 skills, 0 losses

[Minim]

Phew! Having a hard time keeping up with these replays! Keep 'em coming though. I'm still on the lookout for any potential errors here and there, like I just found with WillLem's Wicked 17 solution.

Comments on WillLem's Wild levels.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1: For both that and Wicked 1, really nice technique you used there at the start! Round the outside methods are overlooked particularly in a save all state, but fencing a stacked platform to allow the platformer to glide and land safely works perfectly for these scenarios.

3: Improved to 5 of each (Previously 8). Not too hard if you know some of the tricks I've mentioned on earlier threads. Used a few cloners to good effect here. Also started the rescue bridge from the second silver platform, rather than the third which you did instead.

5: Improved to 4 of each. I took the higher road here and fenced the same stacker on both sides!

13: This is doable in the time limit, but very tedious considering the long length and repetitiveness. Still, I'm re-releasing this level with the skill count increased to 70. Hopefully with this many fencers and walkers you'll be able to "speed fence" and get everyone home before time elapses. I saw your method and it's really good, but the fencer's a drag. I did the last bit slightly different though, by bridging the water from the ramp, rather than the chain. Here's a replay of a 65x solution because I used 65 walkers. I reached the goal in 2:40.

15: This might be doable in 6 if you clone the disarmer and let the cloned lemming fence the wall on the right, saving a stacker, but it's unconfirmed.

17: Improved to 3 of each. Replay attached. I used a new technique which enabled me to fence two walls at once: "Count-stacking" Which is, on a slope of 2 pixels or higher, stack in the direction away from the slope, count the number of bricks where the last brick layed is parallel to the slope then clone the stacker.

As for Wild 8: I think you're right that a save-all solution is impossible with low time-limit here, and given that the wall and the drop are too steep I probably won't re-release this level.

And now, the Wicked levels

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

3: Nice solution! But now it's been "backrouted". Down to 2 of each. Used the clone stacker to hold the others and took the left route instead. Here's my replay attached.

6: WillLem, good job with the outside route again, but lemmings can walk over those bubble walls, just like Crane did with his lose 2 solution. Distribute the fencers (And walkers, potentially) with the other skills, and you should get a lower record than 13.

7: Good use of the chains. Crane was able to beat your solution however by stacking on the edge of the third platform. The result is now 3 of each.

9: Now 5 of each. This is easily doable with 5 platformers if you use the green platform half way.

10: Now 7 of each. Outside-on-the-left route is not necessary here. Replay attached.

11: Sorry, WillLem, but you used 6 fencers instead of 5. However, I'm not ruling out the possibility that 5 can be done though. With the 3 walkers, shimmier and 2 platformers you've left over I'm sure this is possible to rectify.

12: Now 5 of each. Used the stackers for multiple purposes here: Holding the lemmings, and bridging the smaller gaps.

13: You actually used 13 stackers, so your result is 13 of each.

17: Not only you tried a symettrical solution, you drowned the fencer that tried to rescue those swimmers, thus your result is 6 of each, lost 1. I quickly got this down to 2 of each, lost 0. Replay attached.

BTW, really enjoyed Crane's solution to Mayhem 8! Cool concept indeed. Oh, and about ccx's newest solution to Fun 8/Tricky 22: I wonder if this trick can be repeated for Wicked 16?

Anyway, let's get on to Havoc (Crane).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

5: Good use of platformers and the landscape to get everyone down to the bottom safely for the final fencer.

10: Well done! I like that you placed the stacker after the first trap before letting the disarmer do the rest.

19: I forgot the tunnel solution's not possible anymore. Great job getting round that and into the hidden exit. You distributed the skills evenly too.

Now, more of my results from Taxing.
15: 4 of each, lost 1
Was inspired by ccx's under route for Fun 5 and decided to use it here too. Replay attached.

20: 6 of each
Went under the first web and managed to save 2 fencers going that route. The web you land on first is annoying, as you can't platform straight after fencing. Because of that, I can't see 5x being possible.

23: 11 of each, lost 1
The start was pretty tough with the high release rate. This result I think can be improved.

24: 1 of each
Not actually too hard if you look at the terrain's layout. Remember to increase the release rate here.

27: 4 of each
Needed three stackers to reach the ledge, along with something else to create a holding pit; followed by a platformer and three fencers to break through the ceiling safely.

Really annoyed with Taxing 25 at the moment. The exit platform is reachable with 2 of each, like in Fun 19 but there aren't enough skills to prevent too many lemmings from dying. I wonder if precise adjusting the release rate at the right times will help get this bridge done more quickly, and thus save enough lemmings for the lowest x.

The results and the next version of OhNo will be uploaded in a few minutes time.

[ccexplore]

As for Wild 8: I think you're right that a save-all solution is impossible with low time-limit here, and given that the wall and the drop are too steep I probably won't re-release this level.

Actually it turns out to be possible, but you also won't need to re-release the level after all, because 10 of each is sufficient to lost 0.  Barely make it in time though!

[WillLem]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

13: This is doable in the time limit, but very tedious considering the long length and repetitiveness. Still, I'm re-releasing this level with the skill count increased to 70. Hopefully with this many fencers and walkers you'll be able to "speed fence" and get everyone home before time elapses. I saw your method and it's really good, but the fencer's a drag. I did the last bit slightly different though, by bridging the water from the ramp, rather than the chain. Here's a replay of a 65x solution because I used 65 walkers. I reached the goal in 2:40.

17: Improved to 3 of each. Replay attached. I used a new technique which enabled me to fence two walls at once: "Count-stacking" Which is, on a slope of 2 pixels or higher, stack in the direction away from the slope, count the number of bricks where the last brick layed is parallel to the slope then clone the stacker.

Something was going wrong with the Wild 13 replay you attached at first, but then I realised I had to edit my copy for 65 of each skill! This is a brilliant solution, I love the overlapping worker Lemmings to build that final bridge. I think this copious-skill approach is the only way to get it down to under the time limit. I could only manage it in 30 seconds over the time limit. Well sussed out!

You've discovered some great tricks here - there are probably quite a few levels where cloning stackers would bring the overall skill count down. I don't have anywhere near the level of tenacity to go back and do this, I'm pretty happy with my results and I'm glad people are finding ways to improve the scores!
 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

11: Sorry, WillLem, but you used 6 fencers instead of 5. However, I'm not ruling out the possibility that 5 can be done though. With the 3 walkers, shimmier and 2 platformers you've left over I'm sure this is possible to rectify.

17: Not only you tried a symettrical solution, you drowned the fencer that tried to rescue those swimmers, thus your result is 6 of each, lost 1. I quickly got this down to 2 of each, lost 0. Replay attached.

Whoops! These were genuine mistakes - I was very tired last night when I made my way through Wicked. Knew I should've left it until today! Anyways, I've now rectified the above (changed my result for Wicked 11 to 6 of each and saved that Fencer in Wicked 17!), replays updated.

Working through Havoc but need to go to sleep now. Here are my results/replays for the first 5 levels:

Havoc 1 - 4 of each (used cloners to good effect here as inspired by your Wild 13 solution, but couldn't find a way to improve the score).
Havoc 2 - 25 of each (whew...!!! that was EFFORT!)
Havoc 3 - 4 of each
Havoc 4 - 10 of each
Havoc 5 - Improved to 3 of each

I'll look forward to doing the rest of these tomorrow

[Crane]

This might have already been done, but here is a solution to Tricky 1 that uses only 1 of everything with no losses.

[Crane]

So I've managed to beat Fun 21 / Mayhem 26 with 3 skills, 0 losses, but there's a catch... it only works on the DOS version that doesn't have water at the edges of the level.  As a result it probably doesn't count, but here's the replay and the modified level.

[Minim]

So I've managed to beat Fun 21 / Mayhem 26 with 3 skills, 0 losses, but there's a catch... it only works on the DOS version that doesn't have water at the edges of the level.  As a result it probably doesn't count, but here's the replay and the modified level.

I'm glad you're thinking about the DOS version but for the purpose of this challenge nope. Sorry. Object modifications are not allowed. Still, great job with that replay though, particularly on the second tunnel. Cloning a lemming before tunnelling and letting the cloner build to keep the tunnel going is inspired. I also like the fact you freed the lemmings with a cloner. I also like your Tricky 1 solution! You really gave everything to keep those masses at bay within the limit.

So now, I'm sharing more of my Mayhem results here.
4: 4 of each, lost 1
Used the quickest solution. As soon as the last fencer cuts down on the terrain turn him back to a walker, and everyone will approach the exit rather than the drop.

6: 2 of each, lost 1
Same as Tricky 9

7: 6 of each, lost 0
Replay attached. Works for both this one and Fun 20.

9: 6 of each, lost 1
Replay attached. Works for both this one and Fun 29. Lots of tight spaces here.

10: 5 of each, lost 12
Found good use for the shimmiers, and was able to stretch across to the exit with 4 platformers. A messy solution however.

17: 4 of each, lost 2
Replay attached. Again used the shimmiers to full effect. This is close enough to a "symmetrical" solution.

19: 1 of each, lost 1
Same as Tricky 11

21: 2 of each, lost 1
Because it's 100%, I had to think of a quicker way to rescue the splat start. I ended up using 2 platformers.

22: 6 of each
Used more stackers where the fencer wasn't needed in WillLem's solution: One on the second candle of the second chandelier, and two on the first statue of the bridge.

25: 2 of each, lost 3 OR 3 of each, lost 0
Replays attached. Utilises the raised double platformer to full effect.

Finally, My comments to WillLem's Havoc results

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

2: Room for improvement but good job nonetheless! Now down to 15 of each but I'll update the level pack at 25 of each to make sure your replay still works. My replay is attached. I'm sure 14 is not out of the question if I used the same technique from the second half of the level to get them out of the pit in the first half.
EDIT: Improved to 13 of each. I spared two more stackers with this new solution, but also evened out the platformers quite nicely.

3: Now down to 3 of each. I "speed-fenced" the first pipe, creating a pit for the others, and used two full stackers to create a safe drop, sparing one (+1 shimmier) to free the others.

4: Brilliant solution! I like the fact you worked up towards the ceiling and then multi-tasked with platformers and gliders at the end to get everyone home safely. On closer inspection, the fencer through the first icicle is exactly in the right position unlike the ones used for the other four icicles, as it raises the created ramp by a single pixel in comparison to the other 4 positions. The fourth icicle along is one area where the stacker wouldn't have been necessary had you known about this trick. On the other hand, you'd probably need walkers to stop the platformer once he completes the bridge to make sure this raised ramp idea works. Because of all this, I wonder if 9 is doable.

5: You beat Crane this time! Well done. (And I laughed at that bit near the end while watching the group of lemmings turn around on that smaller stacker)

[WillLem]

Finished Havoc! Results & replays above.

This has been an excellent challenge! It would be fun to do the same challenge with a mixture of new & old skills as well... I guess someone would have to take on the task of selecting which skills were available for each level.

Some comments on Minim's comments:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

2: Room for improvement but good job nonetheless! Now down to 15 of each but I'll update the level pack at 25 of each to make sure your replay still works. My replay is attached. I'm sure 14 is not out of the question if I used the same technique from the second half of the level to get them out of the pit in the first half.
EDIT: Improved to 13 of each. I spared two more stackers with this new solution, but also evened out the platformers quite nicely.

3: Now down to 3 of each. I "speed-fenced" the first pipe, creating a pit for the others, and used two full stackers to create a safe drop, sparing one (+1 shimmier) to free the others.

4: Brilliant solution! I like the fact you worked up towards the ceiling and then multi-tasked with platformers and gliders at the end to get everyone home safely. On closer inspection, the fencer through the first icicle is exactly in the right position unlike the ones used for the other four icicles, as it raises the created ramp by a single pixel in comparison to the other 4 positions. The fourth icicle along is one area where the stacker wouldn't have been necessary had you known about this trick. On the other hand, you'd probably need walkers to stop the platformer once he completes the bridge to make sure this raised ramp idea works. Because of all this, I wonder if 9 is doable.

Great job getting Havoc 2 down to 13 -

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I wish I'd checked whether they could drop onto that steel block on the left without needing a glider, would've saved me a lot of work!

Speed fencing - is that the technique you used on Wild 13?

Glad you liked my Havoc 4 solution - I was just determined not to have to add more Fencers!

Best,

-WillLem

Check out my final results for this challenge.

[Minim]

Well done on finishing off Havoc (And thus, the entire OhNo collection). I even decided to have a go at the rest myself. I'll have a look at your replays soon and we'll compare.

I'm glad you've enjoyed the challenge. However, mixing up new and old skills would make things too complicated. Would you (or anyone else for that matter) like me to upload Holiday Lemmings, Covox, Prima?

Speed fencing - is that the technique you used on Wild 13?

Yes indeed.

EDIT: OK, I just saw your Havoc replays. So, only one improvement I've already made out of the eight remaining levels. You've certainly proved to be a better player after learning all these tricks. Here are my responses:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

10: Good try, but Crane already beat you to it. He gave the second lemming a stacker after the first trap, and held back the third and fourth lemmings with a walker and stacker respectively.

12: Excellent! I don't think this one can be beaten. Well done! Much better than my 4 stacker method.

16: Don't worry. It is hard without blockers, along with the high release rate and tight space. I managed this with 3 of each (And went a slightly different route). Replay attached.

17: Amazing! You used all the skills to great aplomb here. This is why we have these challenge threads.

19: Good try. Crane managed 4 of each on this level (And I don't think it's going to improve, considering that all four platformers are needed to cross the long gap). On two occasions he used the fencer as a wall to turn back the lemmings.

20: Absolutely brilliant! Well spotted to find and take the top route for the left entrance, rather than waste two fencers. I also like the way you abused the terrain on the bottom right. Creating a hole on top and building a platform inside it is inspired turnaround control.

[WillLem]

I'm glad you've enjoyed the challenge ... Would you (or anyone else for that matter) like me to upload Holiday Lemmings, Covox, Prima?

Definitely! Bring it on...

Maybe do infinite skills this time tho, to save the hassle of editing those which need more skills.

You've certainly proved to be a better player after learning all these tricks.

Thanks! Much appreciated. I have learned a lot watching yours and others' replays from this task - it's actually been a great way to get used to using the new skills since a lot of the levels involve carving out your own solution.

16: Don't worry. It is hard without blockers, along with the high release rate and tight space. I managed this with 3 of each (And went a slightly different route). Replay attached.

Nicely done! I forgot about the possibility of Fencing to the exit, I was concentrating on minimising stacker use...

17: Amazing! You used all the skills to great aplomb here. This is why we have these challenge threads.

Thanks again, Minim. This was one of my favourites to solve, I love the fact that it uses every skill (except the stoner, of course).

[WillLem]

This might have already been done, but here is a solution to Tricky 1 that uses only 1 of everything with no losses.

Great stuff, I like a good perfect-timing solution!

[Crane]

Happy to oblige!

Here's a 5 skills, 5 losses solution to Wicked 4, if a little bit clumsy.

Also, 6 skills, 0 losses for Mayhem 10!

[ccexplore]

Here's Crazy 11 15 of each, lost 1.  Lost 0 is probably impossible given the time limit and having to start so much lower.

[Minim]

Good job with those replays. I'm glad Crazy 11 can be over and done with, but I'll update this level anyway for the sake of this challenge. As for Mayhem 10, good job using the raised double platformer there.

I have some more Havoc results and improvements.
2: 9 of each, lost 5
Forgot to attach the replay for this. I'll see if I can explain it: It's my 13x solution with a few differences. I stoned at the start, saving three stackers. Then I used another stoner underneath the steel platform with the lower red bar and trapped the lemmings with a cloned stacker, saving one more stacker. I then did the rest of the route as normal. I freed the lemmings with a fencer.

5 and 16: 1 of each, lost 1
No replays needed here. Seems like everybody's forgotten about 5. For 16, I simply stoned as soon as the first one appears. The skills then occur as follows: Glider, Cloner, Stacker, Platformer, Shimmier.

6: 3 of each, lost 3
Replay attached. Went the other way round compared to WillLem's solution.

14: 5 of each
Replay attached. Found a way to save the extra stacker.

20: 3 of each, lost 2
Similar to WillLem's route. Replay attached anyway.

[WillLem]

Results and replays for Covox pack are in my above post.

[Minim]

After downloading WillLem's Covox replays, I realise that the names of difficulty ratings are identical to Original Lemmings. I've distinguished them (along with Prima) from the Original and will re-upload the pack. I also solved all of Covox. I will compare some of my solution differences to WillLem's here.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fun 2: Nice job going up via the barrels! I went up the chains, and had to use 4 stackers to get up there.

Tricky 2: Nice neat solution. I did however narrow it down to 5 of each. Replay attached.

Taxing 1: Great job here! You evened up the skills nicely going through those treacherous obstacles and saved enough platformers to do the rest.

Taxing 2: Nice simple solution. I managed to narrow this down to 10 using the terrain around the exit platform. Replay attached.

I also did Covox Mayhem 2 with 3 of each, lost 2 & 4 of each, lost 1. Used stoners and stretched platformers to create a path to the exit, whilst holding the others back with two stackers.

[Crane]

2 Skill, 0 Loss solutions for Tricky 3 and Taxing 29 (the latter is different because of the higher release rate).

Also 3 skills, 2 losses for Taxing 25.

[WillLem]

Now done Prima, see above for replays & results. This was a fun little pack to play through.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fun 2: Nice job going up via the barrels! I went up the chains, and had to use 4 stackers to get up there.

Tricky 2: Nice neat solution. I did however narrow it down to 5 of each. Replay attached.

Taxing 1: Great job here! You evened up the skills nicely going through those treacherous obstacles and saved enough platformers to do the rest.

Taxing 2: Nice simple solution. I managed to narrow this down to 10 using the terrain around the exit platform. Replay attached.

I also did Covox Mayhem 2 with 3 of each, lost 2 & 4 of each, lost 1. Used stoners and stretched platformers to create a path to the exit, whilst holding the others back with two stackers.

Thanks for the comments, and well done for getting Taxing 2 down to 10, very nice technique ; I'm going to need to get the hang of that Fencer/Walker combo move, it looks a useful little trick for steepening (is that a word?) the upwards progress through terrain. I anticipate needing this a lot during the Xmas levels...

[Minim]

I had a go at the Prima levels too. I pretty much got similar results to WillLem's. All comments are my result differences.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Tricky 1: It is a hard level, but a great challenge indeed. I have improved this to 10 of each. In fact, I'm almost certain that 9 is possible, given how many stackers I managed to save with this method. I can just replace the cloned stacker with two apart ones, allowing a third for the others to climb on top of. Replay attached. I never thought about going over the top of the logo, but with that along with trying to get to the top of Prima came with a cost of too many stackers. I went through Prima and the logo instead, and whilst it is difficult to pull off, I ended up saving lots of skills.

Taxing 1: Down to 7 of each. That platformer onto the rock wasn't necessary. A fencer would've produced the same result.

Mayhem 3: Down to 2 of each. Same as your method, but I used a walker on the first silver segmenit, and glided down the right side over the exit, saving a platformer.

I thought I might upload my Prima Tricky 4 replay too. My result is 4 of each, lost 1.

[Crane]

I managed to improve Taxing 26, "Triple Trouble", to 6 of each, 0 losses, or 4 of each, 4 losses

[WillLem]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Tricky 1: It is a hard level, but a great challenge indeed. I have improved this to 10 of each. In fact, I'm almost certain that 9 is possible, given how many stackers I managed to save with this method. I can just replace the cloned stacker with two apart ones, allowing a third for the others to climb on top of. Replay attached. I never thought about going over the top of the logo, but with that along with trying to get to the top of Prima came with a cost of too many stackers. I went through Prima and the logo instead, and whilst it is difficult to pull off, I ended up saving lots of skills.

Just watched your Tricky 1 replay - it inspired me to have a go at getting it down to 9, which I managed by mixing elements of both our methods to create a supermethod! (replay attached).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I would have preferred to go through the logo at first, but I think I assumed all black space would be empty and would therefore require more fencers to get through. I should've checked! Glad you did, though.

[Minim]

Nice work! I won't hesitate to put that result in.

Thought I might go back to one of the most boring levels in this challenge: Wild 13. I improved this right down to 20 of each. This is by no means the final solution though. There are still plenty of opportunities to experiment with different scenarios. Replay attached. This also takes out the extra cloner I used in the original solution, and consequently makes experimenting much easier.

So far I used 19 Walkers, 16 Shimmiers, 13 Stackers and 20 Fencers.

[WillLem]

Nice work! I won't hesitate to put that result in.

Thought I might go back to one of the most boring levels in this challenge: Wild 13. I improved this right down to 20 of each. This is by no means the final solution though. There are still plenty of opportunities to experiment with different scenarios. Replay attached. This also takes out the extra cloner I used in the original solution, and consequently makes experimenting much easier.

So far I used 19 Walkers, 16 Shimmiers, 13 Stackers and 20 Fencers.

Very good. I like that Fencer/Walker technique, very hackish but does the job in a tight-time-limit level like this!

I've now included my replays & results for the Xmas '91 & '92 levels. Alas - we still don't have a set of results without at least 1 impossible level (unless you count Xmas '92 as its own set - no reason why we shouldn't, I suppose!)

[Minim]

I had another breakthrough this morning with Wild 13. Now down to 11 of each. I followed a route a little more akin to WillLem's this time.

I also did the Xmas levels earlier. No changes to my results compared to WillLem's, but I have to admire the way WillLem controlled the lems with the stacker in "The North Poles". I did a more realistic method of double stacking to trap the other lemming. Out of all levels, I think "Christmas Bonus" looks the most likely level to improve on.

[namida]

I've now included my replays & results for the Xmas '91 & '92 levels. Alas - we still don't have a set of results without at least 1 impossible level (unless you count Xmas '92 as its own set - no reason why we shouldn't, I suppose!)

Every level in Covox is solved, according to the first post.

[ccexplore]

Original and OhNo sets have been re-released! Mainly to make sure that all levels are playable without steel areas. Per this post.

Note that this re-release changes Tricky 28 ("Lost Something?") so that the steel the exit sits on is now fully steel.  So the lose 0 solution that relies on the vines causing non-steel fractures no longer work, only the nuke solution would work (once you increase the skills count).

[Minim]

Thanks for this. I can see that the level has been changed in the new version of NL and updated the thread for you.

[Crane]

This one's bugging me... is there a 7 skills, 0 loss solution to Mayhem 30 or is it a typo? Because I can't find said solution... only 7 skills, 1 loss or 8 skills, 0 losses.

[ccexplore]

Prima Tricky 2 solved with a nuke solution achieving 22 of each, lose 32.  Some key points of the solution noted below in spoilers.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Using highlight-lemming feature to perform the skill assignment, the very first lemming out will eventually do a shimmier jump just before it would've started "oh no".  This skips the oh no allowing the explosion to happen right away, thereby allowing the exit to be reached sooner than otherwise, which in turn allows less lemmings lost to explosions.  The lemmings assigned gliders are of course to create strategic gaps in the chain of explosions, in order to break the fall so it's survivable, and to ensure the platform doesn't get blown away before the lemmings can land on it and then exit.

Covox Taxing 2: 5 of each, lose 5.
Covox Mayhem 2: 3 of each, lose 1.

[ccexplore]

Improving the Tame 1 nuke solution to 1 of each, lose 15.

[Minim]

Nice work, ccexplore! I also tried to reduce it too by counting the frames and knew that theoretically once the shimmier exploded the first fifteen would die and the stxteenth onwards would be able to reach the exit. At that time I forgot that the nuke can bomb below the exit trigger. That was until I saw that Prima replay you've uploaded a few days ago.

I thought I might upload my results for Holiday Lemmings. This pack seems to be more problematic than the others, as I discovered 9 levels so far which are impossible, with 5 of them potentially requiring a nuke solution. Looks like more frame counting needs to be done to take care of those pukes of levels. Replays to some of the levels attached in a bundle. Any questions please ask. Thanks.

Frost
1: 2 of each, lost 1 OR 3 of each
2: 1 of each
3: 2 of each
4: 1 of each
5: 2 of each
6: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 2 of each
7: 3 of each
8: 1 of each
9: 1 of each
10: No solutions Found
11: 1 of each
12: No solutions Found
13: 1 of each
14: 3 of each
15: 2 of each
16: 1 of each

Hail
1: 8 of each
2: 2 of each
3: 11 of each
4: 4 of each
5: 3 of each
6: 0 of each, lost 41 OR 5 of each, lost 27
7: 9 of each
8: 6 of each
9: No Solutions Found
10: 3 of each
11: 4 of each
12: 2 of each
13: 3 of each
14: 9 of each
15: 3 of each
16: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 10 of each

Flurry
1: 3 of each
2: 2 of each
3: 1 of each
4: 2 of each
5: No Solutions Found (Nuke?)
6: 6 of each
7: 6 of each
8: 7 of each
9: 2 of each
10: 6 of each
11: No Solutions Found (Nuke?)
12: 1 of each
13: 1 of each
14: 2 of each
15: 1 of each
16: 6 of each, lost 1

Blitz
1: 6 of each
2: 6 of each
3: No Solutions Found (Nuke?)
4: 4 of each
5: 4 of each
6: 3 of each
7: 5 of each
8: 1 of each
9: 7 of each
10: 2 of each
11: 7 of each
12: No Solutions Found (Nuke?)
13: 6 of each
14: No Solutions Found (Nuke?)
15: 5 of each
16: No Solutions Found (Nuke?)

[ccexplore]

Doesn't Blitz 14 also potentially allow for a nuke solution?  The fencer does let you get directly overhead the hidden exit.  Very high up for sure, but far enough left to be directly overhead.

Surprising how this pack ends up with so many levels set up for nuking. Coming from other packs, I didn't think there'd be more than one or two others beyond Hail 6.

[Minim]

I hadn't tested Blitz 14 there. Good point. Having now investigated this level, and to make this possible with the high requirement, I'll re-upload this level by adding 40 of each. I'll also take a look at the others and do the same if need be.

Also, I quickly improved Hail 6 to 1x, lose 18 using the cloned stacker technique.

[ccexplore]

Ok, here's a nuke solution for Tame 1 that uses 15 each and believe it or not, loses just 1!

This exploits the fact that oh-noers can still exit successfully, even one that's one frame away from exploding when reached the exit trigger.  Calling that out now in case future versions of NeoLemmix changes that behavior.  A lemming that is assigned stacker, platformer or fencer will transition to oh-noer when their nuke timer's up, and before that they will also continue carrying out their skill even in mid-air,  such as from some other lemming's explosion taking out the ground they are on.  When they oh-no, due to being in mid-air they will fall as oh-noers.

So the lemmings that would've exploded early mid-fall gets to fall down as oh-noers instead, which would delay their explosion, and with a short enough fall like on this level, they can reach the exit before their scheduled explosion can occur.  Once hitting the exit trigger, the oh-no lemming "forgets" about its pending explosion and will exit successfully.

The main trickiness with realizing this solution is that NeoLemmix doesn't allow multiple (simultaneous) skill assignments to different lemmings on same frame.  In order to have enough frames to assign skills to all affected lemmings, you have to start assigning a bit further back from when the first lemming explodes.  And it turns out it's not easy to keep a lemming doing stacker, platformer or fencer for that long.  In my solution I had to carefully control how the lemmings overlap in position so the stacking doesn't stop prematurely, and also need to use bashers fencers to extend their mid-air stance until they can oh-no.  (When you have multiple stackers at exact same position and facing direction, it seems that after the second stack brick has been laid down, the game will inevitably stop all but one stacker.)

There are likely a few more nuke levels where this technique can be used.  The key is having a short enough fall to the exit.

[Minim]

The main trickiness with realizing this solution is that NeoLemmix doesn't allow multiple (simultaneous) skill assignments to different lemmings on same frame.  In order to have enough frames to assign skills to all affected lemmings, you have to start assigning a bit further back from when the first lemming explodes.  And it turns out it's not easy to keep a lemming doing stacker, platformer or fencer for that long.  In my solution I had to carefully control how the lemmings overlap in position so the stacking doesn't stop prematurely, and also need to use bashers to extend their mid-air stance until they can oh-no.  (When you have multiple stackers at exact same position and facing direction, it seems that after the second stack brick has been laid down, the game will inevitably stop all but one stacker.)

Or, you could try typing in the solution on Notepad and hope it works.

Saw this replay. Insanely cool indeed. This method harks back to one of namida's LPIII levels. I'm sure Hail 6 would work in similar fashion too. The fall might be greater but at least the platform below the exit is steel.

[Minim]

Just letting everyone know that I solved almost all the nuke levels from Holiday Lemmings (but not optimised), upping the total to 60. Replays attached. The only nuke solution still left to find is Blitz 14. It is literally a "catastrophic anomaly" in comparison to the rest. Because we're bombing through all terrain, after the nukers land on the first pixel of terrain, they "drift off". In other words they move a pixel every time they land, making the predicted landing place too far away from the exit trigger. Here's a diagram that explains the problem. Theoretically it is still doable, but where to start clone-stacking will unfortunately take a bit of experimenting.

[ccexplore]

Wow, good job!   I didn't really have time this week to try any levels for this challenge.

For Blitz 14, can you attach the replay for the failed attempt?  It's still a good place to start tweaking from.

[Minim]

Thanks for the praise.

For Blitz 14, can you attach the replay for the failed attempt?  It's still a good place to start tweaking from.

Ah, just saw this now. I went back and solved it. I'll show the failed replay anyway, and attach the solved replays in a zip file.
My result is 50 of each, lost 35.

[WillLem]

Finally got around to starting the Holiday levels! Finished Frost & Hail so far, results/replays above.

These have been some fairly tricky levels. I've made a few improvements here and there, but there are some that I can't figure out how you managed to get such a good score (particularly Hail 4 & 5)...

[Minim]

With one person improving on the other solutions and vice versa I have to admit this really is a never ending rivalry between the two of us. For some reason I forgot to upload my Holiday replay bundle! I've put it up at the bottom of this post.

My Comments on WillLem's Frost and Hail solutions

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Frost 5: You used 3 platformers, but I can confirm a 2 of each solution is possible, by gliding your worker onto the central spike and cloning the second platformer to bridge across them. Between the two hatches I used a left fencer to create a holding pit and a stacker to get them out.

Frost 14: I was able to skip the first stacker by letting Lemmings 2 and 3 glide over the gap. I used the Tame 11 reacher method with Lem 2 to isolate a worker. The gap is just enough for Lemming 1's platformer to bridge across to safety without Lem 4 falling off.

Hail 1: Well done! Similar to my method, but better balance of skills here.

Hail 3: Great job on this horrible level! I never saw that only one fencer was needed to get across the "Y" rather than two. I like your jumping glider method to make it onto the overhang.

Hail 4: You went the outside route, which is what most players would do. But there is just enough room between the two steel blocks to take an inner route. Precision is key. I also used the terrain physics to my advantage here. Replay attached.

Hail 5: Sorry I didn't post a replay of this earlier, considering you've only managed 9 of each, but now I can proudly say I've proved it. I needed to be creative to stack quickly enough to make a safe fall before the 4th lemming splats to make a 3 of each solution possible. Because the fall is so steep I needed to also create a safety bridge along the edge of the spike. Replay attached.

Hail 7: Remarkable improvement here! I didn't think you could make it across the hanging ledge, but well done.

Hail 11: Good work, but I managed 4 of each already last month. This is a great challenge though, as you'll need to use almost everything you've learnt to achieve this, including Wild 17's "Count-stacking" trick.

Hail 16: I didn't think you had enough time to stack up and make a safe drop for the others but well played there. I was able to improve on that technique though to 7 of each by chopping the top off the ramp with a fencer, thus making the drop just a little bit shorter. Replay attached.

[WillLem]

With one person improving on the other solutions and vice versa I have to admit this really is a never ending rivalry between the two of us.

I've enjoyed the rivalry, it's certainly pushed me to become a better Lemmings player! I've finally finished all the Holiday levels, results/replays above.

This has been a very enjoyable challenge! I look forward to the next one!

[Minim]

Nice work finishing off the Holiday levels, oh, and Merry Christmas! Here are my comments (The last ones ) on WillLem's Flurry and Blitz solutions:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Flurry 6 and Blitz 13: I managed to narrow both of them to 6 of each. Replays attached.

Flurry 8: Took the lower route and lowered the total to 7 of each.

Flurry 9: Good work, but I already found a way to save the third fencer. Result is still 2 of each. I hope that my replay is attached in the bundle somewhere.

Flurry 10: I simply changed the final fencer you used into a stacker/shimmier, improving the result to 5 of each.

Blitz 1 and 2: Both down to 6 of each. Replays should be in the bundle. On Blitz 1, you wasted 2 fencers on the ramp near the end, whereas I was able to create a safety bridge with the remaining building skills. Good job splitting the worker from the rest, but I was able to go one step further and let the worker "jump" over the steel block. In your solution you decided to complete the bridge, and that's made the solution needlessly more complicated without those other lemmings kept at bay.

Blitz 4: Nice improvement here using the Fun 2 technique!

Blitz 6: Usually the basher isn't placed there to get 100% but with that inverted fencer and use of the stackers to hold the others you made it look easy. Well done.

Blitz 7: I think I must've rushed this level considering how well I did on Blitz 2, a similar level to this, but more importantly you didn't. You did well to distribute the skills evenly here.

Blitz 9 and 11: Down to 7 of each. Replay attached for 11, while Blitz 9's replay should be in the bundle. For 9, I took about 2 more lower routes and was able to distribute the walkers, stackers and platformers evenly. I had to use walkers right at the end to meet the lose 0 requirement.

Blitz 15: Already found a way to save the extra platformer you used to create a safety bridge. Result is still 5 of each.

[WillLem]

Nice work finishing off the Holiday levels, oh, and Merry Christmas!

Thanks Minim, once again I had a great time playing through this challenge.

If you'd be up for carrying this on, maybe we could take on some of the forum packs that use original skills only! I'm thinking:

Let's Go! The WillLem Levels
GeoffLems
DoveLems
ArtLems
SEBLems
Reverse Lemmings
Oh No! More Reverse Lemmings
Doomsday Lemmings
Ski Sloping Lemmings
Zemmings

I'm sure there are loads of others, but doing a few of these to begin with could be a fun challenge... maybe start with the smaller packs?

What say you!

[Minim]

No problem, WillLem. I'm really glad that somebody's had fun.

This Challenge thread really reflects on the official levels. Custom level pack challenges can go elsewhere. I think Reverse levels would be quite boring, as most of these levels go from bottom to top, examples being Fun 2, 3 and 10, not to mention the Superlemming level.

As a compromise, I could set up the Extra Official Levels pack for you if you're interested, though that will be the last set of official levels. Hopefully we can find interesting new gimmicks here but it's highly doubtful.

[WillLem]

As a compromise, I could set up the Extra Official Levels pack for you if you're interested, though that will be the last set of official levels.

Sure, let's do it. Even if we don't find any new techniques, it's still great fun to find your own solution to a level.

Where do challenges for unofficial packs go...?

[Minim]

OK! The Extra levels are out.

Also, yesterday I decided to check some of the potential nuke solutions, and I solved two of them so far: Genesis 9's "Test Map" and Sunsoft 18's "Sunsoft Special". The latter could probably be done using ccx's incredible "Lose 1" technique, the same trick he applied on Tame 1, though I've yet to learn this technique let alone pull this off myself.

Another two levels that may be impossible without requiring extra skills are Present 15 "Evil whisper" (Already increased the skill count to 50) and Present 6 "No time for a detour". The former has a complicated terrain layout above and below the exit, and also, you can't get across the steel block without having to use two nuke bombers. In the latter, because there's so little time and there's no way to work around the flame without nuking you'll need to clone an awful lot of lemmings to make the long route work in the time limit, particularly around the leader. Using the skills provided the I can get the first lemming recorded in as early as frame 896. Considering there are 1020 frames and therefore 124 frames (around 7 seconds) to work around, that's not much leeway at all, and makes the challenge on this level tedious to execute.

[WillLem]

Finished Genesis levels. I thoroughly enjoyed these, there are quite a lot of new tricks and solutions which surprisingly fit the new skill set very well! The levels with a Lemcat next to them are those which I feel are particularly good: almost like they were made for the new skills.

Looking forward to seeing how you got on with these!

[Minim]

Ah, sorry for the late response WillLem. I was busy inspecting all the levels for nuke solutions and then I lost interest in it for a moment, therefore I haven't kept myself a complete record. Thanks for your continued interest in this Challenge thread. Also yesterday, I seemed to have dozed off while watching your replays for the first half of the rank! I must remind myself to take a closer look at these replays again soon. At least I was still able to make some significant improvements in some of the later levels.

Anyway, out of all levels, I've confirmed that 2P 30 and Sunsoft 25 are the remaining levels that are possible with nuke. These replays are in the bundle along with my initial attempt at Present 6.

Now, some comments on the Genesis levels:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Genesis 17: Impressive! It's risky taking the higher route with all those flame traps, but you managed it confidently.

Genesis 32: Well done getting the lemmings home in time. I like the way you used the swimmer to ascend the water pool too.

Genesis 36: Love the timing of the second lemming jumping over the signpost before the stacker completes the stack. Beautiful!

Genesis 38: I managed the get the lems down the opposite side and lower the skill count to 3 of each.

Genesis 39: Improved this to 2 of each quite easily. No need to hold the pack.

Genesis 42: Nice work trapping the others but yeah, this is a nasty layout and a 0 loss solution is indeed impossible. I managed 6x with a lose 1 solution, but I'm sure this can be improved further.

Genesis 43: Down to 15 of each and yes, this is a fiddly one to execute.

Genesis 44: Annoyingly, a 2-of-each, lose 2 solution seems so far to be out of reach. I was able to get 5x lose 1 and 3x lose 2 solutions though.

Genesis 46: Down to 11 of each by taking the right side. 10 might be doable if I can speed up that fencer.

Genesis 47: I cut this right down to 4 of each. A fencer/platformer works just as well to navigate up that crooked wall, rather than stackers.

[WillLem]

Ah, sorry for the late response WillLem. I was busy inspecting all the levels for nuke solutions and then I lost interest in it for a moment, therefore I haven't kept myself a complete record.

No worries, it's good to have this as something to come back to every now and again so no rush on it.

Now, some comments on the Genesis levels:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Genesis 17: Impressive! It's risky taking the higher route with all those flame traps, but you managed it confidently.

Genesis 32: Well done getting the lemmings home in time. I like the way you used the swimmer to ascend the water pool too.

Genesis 36: Love the timing of the second lemming jumping over the signpost before the stacker completes the stack. Beautiful!

Genesis 38: I managed the get the lems down the opposite side and lower the skill count to 3 of each.

Genesis 39: Improved this to 2 of each quite easily. No need to hold the pack.

Genesis 42: Nice work trapping the others but yeah, this is a nasty layout and a 0 loss solution is indeed impossible. I managed 6x with a lose 1 solution, but I'm sure this can be improved further.

Genesis 43: Down to 15 of each and yes, this is a fiddly one to execute.

Genesis 44: Annoyingly, a 2-of-each, lose 2 solution seems so far to be out of reach. I was able to get 5x lose 1 and 3x lose 2 solutions though.

Genesis 46: Down to 11 of each by taking the right side. 10 might be doable if I can speed up that fencer.

Genesis 47: I cut this right down to 4 of each. A fencer/platformer works just as well to navigate up that crooked wall, rather than stackers.

Thanks for your kind comments, I think these levels lent themselves really well to the newskills format. Well done on the improvements: you often see things I miss so it's good to see a different approach.

Genesis 44 is another one where if only there was a ledge for the swimmer to climb out of, it'd be a perfect solve!

Anyways, some of the Present levels are the same as the Genesis ones, so for those I've just kept the same score/replay. For ease of data-gathering though, I'll present records as a full set. The Sunsoft ones are slight variations which make the levels slightly more difficult!

I'm looking forward to getting to the 2P ones!

[WillLem]

Added my results for Present & Sunsoft. There was quite a run of Sunsoft levels that required additional original skills to get a 100% solution, and with Sunsoft 14 No world without you being the same as Genesis 43 A group of entrances, and one that I just didn't want to spend the time stack-building on all over again, I found a nice elegant 2 of each solution by adding climbers as well: check it out!

[Minim]

Tihis time, I've decided to have a go at all the Present and Sunsoft levels too. All improvement replays (and a few older ones too) attached in the bundle. There are lots of levels to comment on here, so I've split them into two separate spoiler tags.

Present Comments

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1: With a tweak of the release rate I was able to save that fencer that you used on the well.

4: Nicely done going the short route, but the long route is far easier for this level. Down to 3 of each.

5: Interestingly, I was able to improve by taking the long route to this level too. Down to 3 of each.

7: Cool solution! Doing this level properly though, I managed to reduce this to 4 of each thanks to the Replay Editor.

8: Now 3 of each, along with Sunsoft 6. Too easy for a replay. I simply cloned the rightmost fencer when it was close enough to the top part of the scales to get the others down.

9: Improved to 1 of each. No replay needed here either. I used in order a Glider, Platformer, Fencer and Stacker (With a walker or shimmier to cancel once the gap across is made)

10: Down to 2 of each. I found a quicker way down to the bottom to make a safety bridge for the others.

14: Now 1 of each. Unlike others, this 1 of each is quite hard to spot.

23: Like "Keep Step" I can reduce this to 3 of each. Why did you take the higher route insead of cut across the terrain like you did before?

25: Nice job! I didn't see that one-pixel ledge inside there.

27: Unlucky. This is doable with the new skills though. My replay shows an 8 of each solution, and is one of the rare occurences where the last lemming does the most work.

28: Improved to 5 of each. You can fence into the pits to rescue them.

30: Down to 4 of each. I was able to find a more direct approach to the exit.

Sunsoft Comments

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

2: On the second island I was able to perform a long fencer, thus reducing the solution to 2 of each. I also ended up not using any stackers at all.

3: One of those D'oh moments. I built over that last structure instead of fenced through it. You ended up saving more skills. Good job.

4: I managed to save a stacker, bringing the solution down to 7 of each.

7: Excellent use of the fencer and cloner here. Well done!

9: Cut right down to 3 of each. I also went the long way at first, but suddenly found a more direct approach that works better.

12: Nice elegant solution using the top route! I made a bit of mess attempting the lower route and thus having to do more within the tight time limit.

14: This level is still doable with the new skills. With fewer lemmings about I was able to reduce it to 13 of each.

15: Remember Crazy 7? This one is doable too with new skills. OK, I think after looking at your previous post this level is what you were talking about. But anyway, I did it and managed 11 of each here.

16: This one is surprisingly doable thanks to hidden breaks in the steel (And it is probably the best puzzle out there too). My record is 7 of each.

20: Now 1 of each. I platformed onto the circular obstacle on the left side, cut through the grass on the right and disarmed the traps with the new leader. Finally, I used a walker to turn the platformer back in the right direction.

24: Improved to 6 of each. I also seemed to have found a new trick near the end of the level whilst trying to ascend through a thin horizontal bar (Up to 5 pixels tall), which I thought was going to reduce my method even further, but ended up having no difference. Basically, when reaching the bar, the last stacker is positioned either to the right or the middle of the previous stack when facing right (and vice versa). It also must touch the bar above for this trick to work. As soon as the lemming comes back to the right, immediately assign the stacker on the same stack where you built the last stacker. Select a walker or shimmier at the appropriate time and there should be a 1 pixel-gap between the short stack and the bottom of the bar, therefore the lemmings will be able to ascend without needing a fencer.

27: Nice job! I was a bit lazy and simply assigned gliders to all of them. Never knew the left side could be used as a platform. Well spotted!

28: Improved to 6 of each. I like your method coming into the exit from the opposite direction though, but that turned out to be costly.

30: Down to 2 of each. The release rate was just low enough for me to take advantage and trap the lemmings closer to the exit without needing a cloned stack.

[WillLem]

Loved your solutions to Present 7, 14 (this one in particular - very neat!), and Sunsoft 16, 20 and 30 - some genius stuff going on here.

The trick you used in Sunsoft 24; I'm wondering whether it could have made a difference in some of the previous levels! That said, I'm finding that stackers and fencers tend to be used at a very similar rate, and saving one often means you have to use the other. That said, you tend to do a great job of saving both!

Regarding Sunsoft 14 and 15 - I was actually talking about 14 with the climber. It's the same solution as a previous Genesis level (A group of entrances) and I just really didn't fancy going at it with all those stackers again so I added a climber. I know that's technically against the rules of this challenge, but since it's essentially the same level as before but with only 2 lems, I just went ahead for the sake of experimentation.

Same with Sunsoft 15 - I just wasn't in a stacker mood so I added the climber again!

With Sunsoft 23, I think I just genuinely didn't see the same solution as last time, but I generally do like to try out different things when presented with the same challenge again... I guess in this case it cost me a few skills!

On with the 2Player levels now I think! I've played through them again with the regular skills just for fun; I made it so that each exit would only let 50% of the Lemmings in - makes for some quite interesting challenges! Looking forward to see how they can be tackled with the new skills...

[WillLem]

Results updated for 2-Player and Sega levels. The Sega levels are the first batch to not contain any impossible/nuke-solution levels (although tbf there are only 12 levels!), and the 2-Players are the first to contain levels requiring the use of 0 skills! An interesting bunch...

[Minim]

I tried the 2P levels as well, along with the first 3 levels of SEGA. Thanks for completing these. I went off those after trying to find the best solution for SEGA 3. Anyway, more comments on the 2P levels and one of the SEGA levels, but beforehand I'll post some of my non 100% results here.

8: 5 of each, lost 1
20: 3 of each, lost 1
30: 30 of each, lost 30

The first two are straightforward as you need to go round the outside of the level. On 8, the left side is shorter than the right. 30 is a more optimised nuke solution. Here I basically edited its text file by removing 10 cloner assignments, and voila!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

4: Narrowed down to 7 of each. It was 8 initially, but after looking at your replay I realised that your method of safety bridge creation in the middle was better, and the gaps were short enough for the platformer to be cloned. I was able to combine them together for an improved result.

5: This is easily doable with 1 of each. I platformed to the exit with a glider, then created a stacker of the left edge to "save" the others.

10: Down to 6 of each. I thought my method of trapping the lemmings here would be worth watching.

11: Improved to 6 of each. For one side, I used 6 fencers at the bottom of the grid to ensure safety. The other side I used building skills to rescue 'em.

21: Slightly improved to 9 of each. A slightly different approach to the exit, but saves a few building skills.

25: Easily doable with 2 of each. A walker stops a fencer as soon as he makes a dent in the pipe. Followed by 2 stackers to ascend up the middle towards the exit.

Sega 3: Great job. I was dying to find out the 3 of each solution, and I keep missing out by 1 skill.

[WillLem]

The first two are straightforward as you need to go round the outside of the level. On 8, the left side is shorter than the right. 30 is a more optimised nuke solution. Here I basically edited its text file by removing 10 cloner assignments, and voila!

Do you mean opening the replay file as a text file and editing it from there? I'm guessing that's how you achieve pixel-perfect precision in your solutions?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

4: Narrowed down to 7 of each. It was 8 initially, but after looking at your replay I realised that your method of safety bridge creation in the middle was better, and the gaps were short enough for the platformer to be cloned. I was able to combine them together for an improved result.

Great job! I don't know why it didn't occur to me to use the outer towers rather than stacking up, but yeah, I think between us we've got the perfect solution.

10: Down to 6 of each. I thought my method of trapping the lemmings here would be worth watching.

Genius bit of crowd control. Watching this inspired me to have another go at the level. I managed to (just) get it down to 5 of each; I'm not even sure how the last platformer worked because they're not supposed to be usable on a flat surface, it must be something to do with the movement of the fencer.

11: Improved to 6 of each. For one side, I used 6 fencers at the bottom of the grid to ensure safety. The other side I used building skills to rescue 'em.

Good job; this was probably the messiest of all the 2P levels.

25: Easily doable with 2 of each. A walker stops a fencer as soon as he makes a dent in the pipe. Followed by 2 stackers to ascend up the middle towards the exit.

Another good spot: I need to get into the habit of considering the full scope of movement of the destructive skills. It occasionally occurs to me; for example, you can use half a basher stroke to make a "step" - but yeah, for challenges like this it's worth thinking of this kind of thing as a standard move.

Sega 3: Great job. I was dying to find out the 3 of each solution, and I keep missing out by 1 skill.

Thanks! I generally prefer to walk across the top of a level if it's at all possible, I simply aimed for that and the solution presented itself as I went along.

I'm on the PSP ones tonight and then I'm going to play through a few levels from Nessy's new pack, I haven't played any of his stuff yet and I want to see what his level style is like.

[Proxima]

Do you mean opening the replay file as a text file and editing it from there? I'm guessing that's how you achieve pixel-perfect precision in your solutions?

Pixel-perfect precision is achieved by pausing and using the "1 frame forwards" and "1 frame backwards" hotkeys. If you're not familiar with these, you should get used to using them -- not only are they often essential for doing challenges in NL, but they make playing levels normally a lot more user-friendly.

[Minim]

The first two are straightforward as you need to go round the outside of the level. On 8, the left side is shorter than the right. 30 is a more optimised nuke solution. Here I basically edited its text file by removing 10 cloner assignments, and voila!

Do you mean opening the replay file as a text file and editing it from there? I'm guessing that's how you achieve pixel-perfect precision in your solutions?

Yes, indeed. It is a risky move though and is only recommended if you want to remove unnecessary clutter to your solution, rather than edit the skills' frame and pixel placements, which would otherwise increase your chances of breaking the solution.

10: Down to 6 of each. I thought my method of trapping the lemmings here would be worth watching.

Genius bit of crowd control. Watching this inspired me to have another go at the level. I managed to (just) get it down to 5 of each; I'm not even sure how the last platformer worked because they're not supposed to be usable on a flat surface, it must be something to do with the movement of the fencer.

I had a look and a closer investigation at the last part of your replay under Clear Physics Mode. If you hover the cursor over the fencer, you should see a red spot with a yellow centre, which is where the pixel the lemming is standing on, and therefore where any skill assignment you make will take place on that spot. If you pause and as Proxima mentioned, toggle the frames with these hotkeys, you'll eventually see the spot change positions, unless it's a blocker of course. This also applies to the fencer after it's dug its area. The distance between that spot and where the fencer was placed happened to be short enough that there was an open area to allow the assignment of the platformer. This wouldn't have worked if the stacker was placed further away from the open area. I hope I explained this clear enough.

Still, I'm amazed that you managed to take advantage of these mechanics when nothing looked possible after using up all the shimmiers and walkers. This is definitely one of the most amazing new skill solutions I've ever seen!

I'm on the PSP ones tonight and then I'm going to play through a few levels from Nessy's new pack, I haven't played any of his stuff yet and I want to see what his level style is like.

Sure. I don't mind having a go at the "Other" category.

[WillLem]

Pixel-perfect precision is achieved by pausing and using the "1 frame forwards" and "1 frame backwards" hotkeys. If you're not familiar with these, you should get used to using them -- not only are they often essential for doing challenges in NL, but they make playing levels normally a lot more user-friendly.

Thanks Proxima, good shout. I have the forwards/backwards framesteps assigned to left/right mouse buttons respectively, plus automatic replay cancel on backstep.

I guess what I'm asking Minim about is his use of the text editor to target very specific frames in a replay. At least, that's what I imagine is happening - I'm just trying to understand more about this method coz I've heard a few people mentioning it.

To be fair, I'm happy with framestepping; as you've quite rightly pointed out, it more than does the job as far as on-the-fly pixel precision goes, and I'm aware of the ability to edit replays as well if a level gets particularly complex.

[WillLem]

Yes, indeed. It is a risky move though and is only recommended if you want to remove unnecessary clutter to your solution, rather than edit the skills' frame and pixel placements, which would otherwise increase your chances of breaking the solution.

Haha to be fair I'm still getting used to the idea of being able to framestep and see skill shadows (both fantastic developments to the Lemmings game btw), so I'm not going to be diving into text editors to solve levels anytime soon! I rarely even use clear physics it's just interesting to learn more about different approaches to the puzzles.

Still, I'm amazed that you managed to take advantage of these mechanics when nothing looked possible after using up all the shimmiers and walkers. This is definitely one of the most amazing new skill solutions I've ever seen!

To be honest, it was a complete fluke discovery - I'd "run out" of walkers and shimmiers and so I just clicked the platformer at that moment to see what would happen. It confused me that it even worked. But yes, I've had a look at the clear physics and I think I see what you mean - the dot rises up by a pixel for a moment, and it's then that it's possible to assign the platformer.

Sure. I don't mind having a go at the "Other" category.

I'll do these as well for sure! Looking forward to it.

[Minim]

As promised, my results for the Other Rank are here, and you'll be pleased to know that they're all possible without requiring an update! Replays for all except 2 and 8 attached in the bundle.
1: 10 of each
2: 0 of each
3: 2 of each
4: 6 of each
5: 7 of each
6: 2 of each
7: 6 of each
8: 2 of each
9: 4 of each
10: 10 of each
11: 3 of each

Also, I decided to go back to Present 6. I managed to find something solvable at last, but not without losing lots of lemmings thanks to the time limit.

I scrapped the Gliders and used walkers first, particularly on areas where they fell the second and third times; and the most I could get was 26.

Following on from this, the next method I tried was using stackers to redirect the lemmings. The right stacker is fine but when you come to do the left stacker it has to be positioned at the bottom of the valley otherwise it will start stacking a pixel lower, therefore wasting some frames trying to complete the redirect. The terrain layout was helpful in that walking the stacker after he completes the seventh stack will ensure that no lems from the opposite side will get trapped. While the stacker was building I used cloners for all the lemmings in front of the 26th, particularly as they fell. With 98 as the requirement I had to click the same button 72 times! With the left stacker positioned differently as well I also had to remember to turn the 26th lemming round to get him home too.

My result is: 72 of each, lost 74.

EDIT: Also confirmed Sunsoft 1 is possible. Really starting to get more creative with those gliders now! Base result is 22 of each, lost 32.

SECOND EDIT: Yet another level I can confirm as possible! Present 15, which can be done with 50 of each, lost 50, and probably my favourite nuke solution of the lot. The process is similar to Sunsoft 1, but the terrain layout is more complex. With the steep drop, I had to use all the gliders again, but I also found a way to create a "chain" of lemmings 1 pixel apart using a cloner. I had to wait until all the lemmings are out before attempting this trick. After getting the latest lemmings into position with walkers and a 98 RR I then simply clicked the cloner when every last lemming hits the wall to create this wonderful chain.

[WillLem]

Also, I decided to go back to Present 6.
---
My result is: 72 of each, lost 74.

Love the method - I upped this to Save 116, 99 of each, lost 83 initially by literally just going nuts with Cloners right near the exit. I'm sure that with very careful editing this could be improved even more by using walkers to turn the cloned Lems around - maybe you could work some text editor magic?

Also confirmed Sunsoft 1 is possible. Really starting to get more creative with those gliders now! Base result is 22 of each, lost 32.

Hmmm this replay didn't work in my NL...

Yet another level I can confirm as possible! Present 15, which can be done with 50 of each, lost 50, and probably my favourite nuke solution of the lot.

This one worked perfectly! How did you manage not to destroy any of the terrain below the exit?

I've been playing through some custom packs today; I'll have a look at the Other levels tomorrow.

[Minim]

Also confirmed Sunsoft 1 is possible. Really starting to get more creative with those gliders now! Base result is 22 of each, lost 32.

Hmmm this replay didn't work in my NL...

Maybe I forgot to update the pack. Now it's been updated and hopefully the replay's solution will work.

[WillLem]

Results/replays for PSP and Other above.

I think the PSP ones have been the easiest so far, I got through these quite quickly. By contrast, the Other levels have been some of the most cumbersome! I only managed to make one improvement in this lot, so I ended up being a bit liberal with the regular skills for some of these, greyed them out as usual though so just ignore those!

I'm doing a challenge similar to this that involves the use of any skills to get maximum saves in minimum time, if you fancy getting involved it'd be great to see you there.

[Minim]

I also had a quick whizz of the PSP levels. I also did some levels with the criteria reversed because for some levels you only need one lemming. Here's my set of results. Edit: Forgot to attach some replays.

2: 2 of each, lost 3
3: 2 of each, lost 3
11: 3 of each, lost 1
24: 1 of each, lost 1
28: 1 of each, lost 2
32: 1 of each, lost 3

Now, the comments on PSP levels (And Other 7)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

4: Excellent skill distribution here. Well done!

6: I found a way to break across that one-way arrow next to the entrance and shorten the route. Result is now 3 of each.

7: The starting platform was long enough that I managed to isolate a worker and get the first two bridges sorted out. After that, I let him jump onto the third platform and make the final bridge. Improved to 3 of each.

15: Thanks for clearing this one up. Good use of the platformers and gliders to cross the gap at the top.

18: Nice idea to stack onto the raised platform. You utilised the stackers and shimmiers to full effect.

22: Wonderful use of the landscape here! That last platformer placement was clever indeed, and you distributed the lemmings well just like the skills here.

23: Outstanding solution, and probably one of my favourites! I particularly like the start where you glided the second lemming over the fencer to create a completed platformer bridge, and the way you contained those lemmings.

26: Down to 2 of each. I remember playing this level on the Original PSP version. I think that one had 2 bashers. Similar kind of stuff here. It's only a matter of where to put those fencers.

33: Nicely done! You utilised the narrow parts of the level to your advantage, particularly when you turned the glider round before cloning him to land in the right direction to make a platformer over the fire trap.

Other 7: Well spotted finding the higher route and saving a platformer! I also noticed that the entrance is clearly visible ahead of the stackers (And Terrain in general), which is pretty annoying.

[WillLem]

Now that 12.9 is out and we have Jumpers, not to mention the Glider bug fix, shall we do this one again?

EDIT: Hang fire for now, I'm waiting to see what's happening with the official conversions first. If we do do this challenge again, I'd prefer it to be with the fully restored versions of the levels (if only because decorative terrain always proves useful for this challenge!).

[Minim]

The level attachments are still there, and the discussion for the future of official conversions hasn't been updated for at least 48 hours so I think it's best to leave any graphical changes as is for this challenge thread. The Moss-on-steel bug - which has been mentioned that solutions involving this shouldn't count - has been fixed already, and I don't feel like reverting it back. I'm just trying to keep the number of changes to a minimum whilst remaining as inclusive and fair as possible for everyone.

Looks like we will have to start over again. I'll mention more in my opening post regarding further details on changes.

[WillLem]

@Minim - I think Proxima is currently preparing a conversion for Challenge purposes. It's probably worth waiting for these, as they will likely feature some restoration of the decorative terrain.

[Minim]

@Minim - I think Proxima is currently preparing a conversion for Challenge purposes. It's probably worth waiting for these, as they will likely feature some restoration of the decorative terrain.

Agreed. Thanks for updating me on this. I think this is the post you meant. Somehow it seemed to be obscured by all the later posts on that thread.

[WillLem]

Yeah, ignore that little bit of squabble! Proxima will do a great job at maintaining the packs, I'm sure. And, ultimately, it's way more important that we're all talking about the same packs when we do challenges.

[Proxima]

NeoLemmix versions of the original levels are now hosted here. This is still a work in progress, but can be used as a basis for this challenge, so long as it's clear that all results are only tentative until we have a final version.

However, there is an important question to raise for this challenge in particular. This challenge requires a modified pack, with each level given the new skills. But this can't actually be done any more -- there are 11 new skills with the introduction of the Jumper, but a single level can only have 10.

One possibility would be to remove the Disarmer from levels with no traps, and the Swimmer from levels with no water -- but then we still have a problem on any levels that have both.

What should we do about this?

[WillLem]

This is still a work in progress, but can be used as a basis for this challenge, so long as it's clear that all results are only tentative until we have a final version.

I'm happy to wait until version 1.0 has been finalised to be honest. What do you reckon, Minim?

What should we do about this?

Four possibilities:

1) Make every entrance hatch spawn Swimmers, and every time a lem enters the water as part of the solution count 1 Swimmer (unless it's the same lem).
2) Make every entrance hatch spawn Disarmers, and every time a lem disarms a trap count 1 Disarmer (unless it's the same lem).
3) Remove Stoners (I'll probs do this for my version of the challenge since I'll be going for all-save each time anyway).
4) Something else I haven't thought of.

[Minim]

This is still a work in progress, but can be used as a basis for this challenge, so long as it's clear that all results are only tentative until we have a final version.

I'm happy to wait until version 1.0 has been finalised to be honest. What do you reckon, Minim?

I don't mind waiting. I'm actually playing through the whole challenge pack. Haven't had any qualms yet so far. Though I'm wondering, for levels that have alternate save requirements, (Mayhem 4 and Taxing 22 are two examples off the top of my head) use the lower ones regardless, or are we sticking with Amiga? Lower saves should hopefully open up more solutions without creating too many backroutes.

What should we do about this?

Four possibilities:

1) Make every entrance hatch spawn Swimmers, and every time a lem enters the water as part of the solution count 1 Swimmer (unless it's the same lem).
2) Make every entrance hatch spawn Disarmers, and every time a lem disarms a trap count 1 Disarmer (unless it's the same lem).
3) Remove Stoners (I'll probs do this for my version of the challenge since I'll be going for all-save each time anyway).
4) Something else I haven't thought of.

I'm against the 1st and 2nd ones. 3rd was one of my options off the top of my head, and it's probably the idea I want to go for.

My idea for a 4th one was to check the level records' replays, and find out which skill they haven't used. If they used all 10 of them, it's probably not worth including the jumper at all. Since all of WillLem's replays discount the stoner, it naturally blends into the 3rd one.

[Proxima]

Though I'm wondering, for levels that have alternate save requirements, (Mayhem 4 and Taxing 22 are two examples off the top of my head) use the lower ones regardless, or are we sticking with Amiga?

There's actually an inconsistency here that should be addressed. The results, at the moment, report the maximum saved even if it's below the save requirement, e.g. Taxing 1 has a lose-3 solution reported even though the original level is lose-1. Namida's older topic for this challenge treats the original save requirements as binding, so a result below the save requirement would be treated as "no solution". I don't have a strong opinion either way, but we should pick to one of these approaches and stick with it.

If we decide to keep the original save requirements, then it will certainly be the Amiga version, because the NeoLemmix versions of the original levels use Amiga statistics.

3rd was one of my options off the top of my head, and it's probably the idea I want to go for.

If this topic is to be a fair record of "Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?" then we can't just erase the Stoner.

[ccexplore]

Did the cloner already exist back in namida's original formulation of challenge?  The cloner is the only reason why number of lemmings lost can deviate with number of lemmings saved in the reported solutions, AFAIK.  We are still taking the originals' number of lemmings to save as binding AFAIK, just that you can lose more than you can originally by compensating the losses with use of cloners.

I don't really interpret the original level's save requirement as a requirement on number of lemmings lost, though I can see how someone else may subscribe to that interpretation.  But the thing is, you can't define "number of lemmings lost" as a solution criteria in NeoLemmix today--the determination of whether you pass a level or not is still solely based on number of lemmings saved.  And it's always my interpretation that this challenge is to imagine changing only the skillset and nothing else about the level, and then ask whether the resulting level can be solved in NeoLemmix.  That's it.  In which case the save requirement should remain a save requirement and not a loss requirement.

I'm not completely opposed to DOS save requirements but I do feel the Amiga ones are preferred.  As far as I remember, only a few levels in DOS deviated from Amiga, and in all cases the DOS deviations "water down" the levels' difficulty.  Many other ports follow the Amiga statistics as well if/when they feature the same levels, whereas I'm not sure whether the DOS deviations were ever seen in any other ports.  And like Proxima said, if we already adopted Amiga's having 100 vs DOS's 80 lemmings for most levels, and adopted all the water in Amiga that were taken out on DOS, etc., we might as well be consistent all the way and choose the Amiga version for everything else about the level.

As for the new skillset, I think to fit the spirit of what we are going for, we'll need to give the player free reign in choosing which of the new skills to use.  It could mean the player having to modify the level from time to time to incorporate the skillset he/she wound up using.

[Proxima]

Did the cloner already exist back in namida's original formulation of challenge?  The cloner is the only reason why number of lemmings lost can deviate with number of lemmings saved in the reported solutions, AFAIK.  We are still taking the originals' number of lemmings to save as binding AFAIK, just that you can lose more than you can originally by compensating the losses with use of cloners.

Oops I completely didn't think of that.

[Minim]

As for the new skillset, I think to fit the spirit of what we are going for, we'll need to give the player free reign in choosing which of the new skills to use.  It could mean the player having to modify the level from time to time to incorporate the skillset he/she wound up using.

I think I'll change my mind and agree with this proposal instead. To make this work better, the solver will need to give the other players some kind of clue as to which skills they used (Or rather, which ones they didn't use to simplify things.) For example, if the solver completes Fun 8 with 2 of each skill without using stoners, they can simply rename their uploaded file to something like Fun_8_NS_2x_no_stoners.

[ccexplore]

Based on my limited past participation, although every new skill had been used in at least one solution I've posted, I believe the swimmer had been least used so far.  So I'd guess that for the levels containing both water and traps, leaving swimmers out of the skillset in the supplied reference levels would be least likely to require player to change the skillset themselves.

[WillLem]

If all 4 skills do get implemented in 12.11, that will bring the total "new" skills to 15. I'd definitely be interested in looking at this challenge again if, as and when the stable is released.

I suggest, to keep the next "new skills" challenge interesting, all 5 new new skills (i.e. those not used in the last challenge - Jumpers, Sliders, Grenadiers, Laserblasters and Spearthrowers) should be used in every level, but the other 5 skills can be interchangeable depending on the needs of the level.

Thoughts?

[Proxima]

Challenges should be fun, but they aren't just games. They should set a clear goal, and be our best attempt at meeting that goal.

Here, the goal is clear: to determine which levels can be beaten with (any quantity of) the new skills, but none of the old ones. The fact that there might be 15 new skills, but only 10 can fit on the panel at once makes things awkward, but doesn't excuse leaving any skills out. So the rule will continue to be: you can edit the level to provide whatever new-skills-only skillset is most appropriate to beating the level with the smallest number of skills.

[WillLem]

Fair enough. Maybe there needs to be a separate board for experimentation.

[jkapp76]

Hey, WillLem...

Could you post your version of the levels here with your mods to the skill amounts? I'd like the skills set up just like yours. And I'd love to not have to edit each level if I don't have to.

[WillLem]

Hey, WillLem...

Could you post your version of the levels here with your mods to the skill amounts? I'd like the skills set up just like yours. And I'd love to not have to edit each level if I don't have to.

This is just a quick forum visit and I don't have the levels handy, but you can use the attached tool to quickly modify large groups of levels yourself.

See also this topic for more info/instructions on how to use it.

[WillLem]

Results for previously impossible levels so far (modded levels and replays attached):

Lemmings (click to show/hide)

Fun 21 & Mayhem 26 - 5 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Swimmers, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Fun 23 & Taxing 17 - 13 of each (Walkers, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Mayhem 12 - 23 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Sliders, Gliders, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Mayhem 23 - 52 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Sliders, Gliders, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Mayhem 28 - 22 of each (Jumpers, Sliders, Gliders, Platformers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved

Oh No! More Lemmings (click to show/hide)

Tame 5 - No solution found
Wicked 2 - No solution found
Havoc 11 - No solution found

2-Player (click to show/hide)

2P (2) We're In This One Together - No solution found
2P (15) Graffiti - No solution found
2P (16) The Rubbish Dump - 61 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
2P (16) The Rubbish Dump - 47 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 99% Saved
2P (29) Co-operation - 31 of each (Walkers, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
2P (34) Graffiti (Genesis Version) - No solution found

Please note that the 2-Player levels were numbered differently for this challenge than they are in the actual games, so the challenge number is in (brackets) and the level title is specified for clarity.

Holiday Lemmings (click to show/hide)

Xmas '91 1 - 25 of each (Walkers, Gliders, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Frost 10 - No solution found
Frost 12 - 64 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Sliders, Gliders, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Hail 9 - 19 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Shimmiers, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved

Extra Levels (click to show/hide)

Present 19 - No solution found
PSP 5 - 4 of each (Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
PSP 25 - No solution found
Sunsoft 13 - 12 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Gliders, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Sunsoft 17 - 4 of each (Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Sunsoft 21 - 16 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved

[WillLem]

Results for previously impossible levels (pre-Jumpers, Sliders, Laserers) (modded levels and replays attached):

Lemmings (click to show/hide)

Fun 21 & Mayhem 26 - 5 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Swimmers, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Fun 23 & Taxing 17 - 13 of each (Walkers, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Mayhem 12 - 23 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Sliders, Gliders, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Mayhem 23 - 52 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Sliders, Gliders, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Mayhem 28 - 22 of each (Jumpers, Sliders, Gliders, Platformers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved

Oh No! More Lemmings (click to show/hide)

Tame 5 - No solution found
Wicked 2 - No solution found
Havoc 11 - No solution found

2-Player (click to show/hide)

2P (2) We're In This One Together - No solution found
2P (15) Graffiti - No solution found
2P (16) The Rubbish Dump - 61 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
2P (16) The Rubbish Dump - 47 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 99% Saved
2P (29) Co-operation - 31 of each (Walkers, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
2P (34) Graffiti (Genesis Version) - No solution found

Please note that the 2-Player levels were numbered differently for this challenge than they are in the actual games, so the challenge number is in (brackets) and the level title is specified for clarity.

Holiday Lemmings (click to show/hide)

Xmas '91 1 - 25 of each (Walkers, Gliders, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Frost 10 - No solution found
Frost 12 - 64 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Sliders, Gliders, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Hail 9 - 19 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Shimmiers, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved

Extra Levels (click to show/hide)

Present 19 - No solution found
PSP 5 - 4 of each (Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
PSP 25 - No solution found
Sunsoft 13 - 12 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Gliders, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Sunsoft 17 - 4 of each (Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved
Sunsoft 21 - 16 of each (Walkers, Jumpers, Platformers, Stackers, Laserers, Fencers) - 100% Saved

Some of these may be improvable with a bit of Laserer/Fencer twiddling. The only levels which now remain impossible, it seems, all require downwards-destruction.

[Minim]

Thanks for these solutions! I'll have a look at these and update the table in just a moment. In the meantime, I did some OhNo solutions way back in June. Replay bundle shows the level's name first.

Fun 21 (Mayhem 26): It quite clear according to the background that we have two different versions of this level. Anyway, I was able to improve this to 3 of each. Replay and level attached

2P 16 (The Rubbish Dump): 100% solution easily improved to 60 of each! Simply a fencer for the last cutting skill is just enough for the lems to fall through the gap to the exit.

2P 29 (Cooperation): I was able to save 4 fencers along the last part of the tunnel to make it 27 of each.

[Minim]

OK, just dumping some of my original level solutions onto the mainspace, and will be shortly updating the packs for hopefully the last time. I really need to think about moving on from NeoLemmix, as I'm running out of disk space on my PC.