Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?  (Read 12426 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 1296
  • The Optimizer 8-)
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2019, 12:20:52 am »
I assure you, it's equally frustrating for me when I try to help things run more smoothly and it's read as an attack, but hey, that's communication on the internet. It's hard to judge the tone of voice a post is written in, so it's easy for a small misunderstanding to lead to a big upset. I hope that won't stop us cooperating, since this looks like being a fun challenge (and it's been a long time since there was any activity here in Challenges).


I'm sure we can move forward positively and co-operatively. After all, this is a great forum to be part of and I find these challenges very interesting! Apologies for the misunderstanding. :)

I think my initial upset was more to do with the fact that I was fresh from a session battling with the levels making sure I got maximum saves each time, and I didn't get the fanfare of praise for my fantastic solutions that I was hoping for(!) ;P :laugh:

Joking aside, it's nice to be acknowledged when you're trying to contribute positively to a group effort. I do get that this isn't always the first thing on people's minds tho, and also that my contribution is an interpretation of the challenge rather than meeting it directly, which may or may not be helpful!

Quote
N of each what? To be honest, I don't quite understand Minim's format.

Okay, I think that's the root of the disagreement, so let's go over this. The idea is to rank solutions by the highest number of an individual skill used. In other words, 8 fencers and 8 disarmers is "better" than 9 fencers and 1 stoner. The former solution would be possible with a skillset of 8 of each skill; the latter requires at least 9.

What I'm saying is that in terms of number of lemmings lost, it's equally good to save 50/50 as it is to save 60/50 with ten cloners. So the number of lemmings lost is a better way to write up the result, because that makes it really clear for the reader how good a solution is -- especially as we get to harder levels where we might well end up going over the 10-of-each for some levels.

OK... I get it now, I've updated my original post accordingly so it's more useful on these particular points. Thanks for the explanation!

Edit - in fact, I've realised that there have been times when I could have sometimes used Shimmiers to stop Stackers mid-stack rather than always Walkers... this would bring the numbers down as well...!

Understanding is a wonderful thing. :thumbsup:

Quote
The fact that I've gone for maximum saves is just as much of a challenge as going for minimum skills/losses, because quite often the solutions require quite extensive work in order not to lose any Lemmings

Indeed, that was ccexplore's point -- both versions of the challenge are interesting. What I'm hoping for is that eventually we'll have a list of the best results for each level in both categories: smallest N-of-each first and minimum losses second, and the other way around.

I'm looking forward to having a go at this as soon as I have NL reinstalled :)

In that case, if everyone's happy for me to go ahead with the maximum saves/minimum losses effort and deprioritise the skills part of the challenge for now, this suits my playing style better to be honest (N.B - I always generally aim to use the minimum number of skills anyway). My lists/solutions will therefore point to what's needed for maximum saves, being fairly liberal with the skills wherever needed.

Offline Proxima

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 4100
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2019, 09:52:26 am »
I think my initial upset was more to do with the fact that I was fresh from a session battling with the levels making sure I got maximum saves each time, and I didn't get the fanfare of praise for my fantastic solutions that I was hoping for(!) ;P :laugh:

Understandable! However, I'm going to attempt this myself without looking at other people's replays -- I will have a look afterwards! 8-)

Here's my first batch of results. I've attached replays for:

Fun 3, 2 of each 100%
Fun 8, 2 of each 100%
Fun 11, 2 of each lose 4
Fun 13, 1 of each 100%
Fun 24, 2 of each lose 2 (note: this still does not match the result from the old thread... neat solution though!)

Added these results to the OP of the topic.

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 5319
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2019, 10:24:15 am »
Joking aside, it's nice to be acknowledged when you're trying to contribute positively to a group effort. I do get that this isn't always the first thing on people's minds tho

Ok, that's fair.  It is kind of true that we sometimes tend to not comment much on each other's efforts on these challenge threads save for the really impressive solutions every now and then.  I haven't had a chance to look at any specific solutions but I'm sure you made great efforts towards a good number of them, and every contribution helps.  Please don't let the lack of acknowledgement discourage you, the challenges are as much for your own enjoyment trying to meet them as they are for others to observe.

my contribution is an interpretation of the challenge rather than meeting it directly, which may or may not be helpful!

For recordkeeping purposes, we need to settle on a specific, fixed set of rules to define a particular challenge.  Otherwise it becomes chaos as people start tweaking both the rules and the levels to make a solution work out.  The records lost meaning when you don't know exactly what kind of extra "interpretations" gets included for the solution to work.  It's better to just say the level's impossible if that turns out to be the case.

Indeed, for clear recordkeeping we even insist on specifying what specific game engine or port is used for each challenge (eg. NeoLemmix for this one).  Because sometimes a solution that works in DOS Lemmings may not work or required much modification to work in other ports like Amiga Lemmings, because almost every game had slight variations in certain parts of their physics, and any little difference can potentially be just the thing that makes or breaks a particular solution, especially when it comes to challenges.

That's not to say a challenge-caliber solution involving tweaked rules and tweaked levels are useless; they are just not suitable for reporting results for that one particular challenge.  For a one-off, you can consider making it a custom level in your own pack.  Or if you can apply certain additional rules usefully across many levels, maybe you can start a new challenge thread with those rules.  Sometimes they evolve naturally: for example there once was a thread about "how many levels can be beaten in under a minute?"  Obviously not all levels can and that's fine.  Once we got through that, we started exploring variations like lowest number of minutes to beat the remaining levels, that naturally evolve from the original challenge.  I can imagine that we may eventually address the levels that cannot be solved for this challenge with some new variation evolved from the current challenge, like maybe "how few old skills do you need to add to solve" or something along that line.

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 1296
  • The Optimizer 8-)
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2019, 11:33:43 am »
I haven't had a chance to look at any specific solutions but I'm sure you made great efforts towards a good number of them, and every contribution helps.  Please don't let the lack of acknowledgement discourage you, the challenges are as much for your own enjoyment trying to meet them as they are for others to observe.

---

I can imagine that we may eventually address the levels that cannot be solved for this challenge with some new variation evolved from the current challenge, like maybe "how few old skills do you need to add to solve" or something along that line.

Thanks for your reply, I guess coz I'm still somewhat new I'm still getting used to the way things are approached on the forum, and I'm hoping that I can contribute something worthwhile in the meantime. Hence the maximum-saves angle - perhaps my results could indicate the minimum skills needed to save 100%, for instance. And then people can try to beat those scores, of course! ;P

I was intending to do a Lemmings remix featuring both old and new skills, making it possible to save all Lemmings in every level. People's results & solutions for this challenge would help massively in getting that together. (Or - have I missed the boat and this is something that's already been done or in the pipeline?)

For recordkeeping purposes, we need to settle on a specific, fixed set of rules to define a particular challenge.  Otherwise it becomes chaos as people start tweaking both the rules and the levels to make a solution work out.

---

That's not to say a challenge-caliber solution involving tweaked rules and tweaked levels are useless; they are just not suitable for reporting results for that one particular challenge.

This is fair enough. I do need to understand the point of the challenges more fully before participating, I think. This one just caught my eye because it's very close to an idea I'd had and I couldn't wait to dive in and get involved!

Thanks for the kind comments btw. 8-)


Offline Minim

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 1636
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2019, 12:04:34 pm »
Wow, so much has gone on. :XD:  I did the first three levels of Taxing last night. Earlier this morning I just scanned all of WillLem's replays.

Quote
N of each what? To be honest, I don't quite understand Minim's format.

Okay, I think that's the root of the disagreement, so let's go over this. The idea is to rank solutions by the highest number of an individual skill used. In other words, 8 fencers and 8 disarmers is "better" than 9 fencers and 1 stoner. The former solution would be possible with a skillset of 8 of each skill; the latter requires at least 9.

That means that although there are 10 cloners in the level file given, firstly, you can't use them freely because if you have, for example, a 2-of-each solution, you are making it worse by using extra cloners; secondly, if a level was not solvable with 10 of each, but might be solvable with a larger number of each, you are allowed to modify the level and report a solution for the larger number.

Just to be clear, I have nothing against you reporting the total number of skills used; it's just not part of this challenge as Minim originally proposed it, and so I wanted to make sure we are tackling the same challenge so as to avoid unnecessary effort.

Thanks for clearing that up, Proxima. While I was posting I do recall someone explaining Rule #2 on a separate challenge thread. That happened to be on the next page of the board.

So, after looking at WillLem's solutions, I noticed that he was using up all 10 Cloners on every level. I ignored the unnecessary cloners and inspected on the rest. As Proxima mentioned, it was one of those things I forgot to clarify. The only edited results I can accept are skill changes, like Tricky 8. Terrain and object modifications are forbidden. That's why Rule #1 - Solve the level - is first priority.

I think WillLem's save all idea is a more useful order than the other way round, particularly so that we can use the same replays for later levels. As soon as I started playing the Taxing levels I completely forgot that some of them are repeats of earlier levels with usually tougher requirements and less time. Taxing 1 was a perfect example of that.

Now, some spoilery comments on WillLem's save all solutions.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 5319
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2019, 12:40:13 pm »
Fun 12 improved to 1 of each, lose 2 OR 2 of each, lose 0

[edit: looks like WillLem already did the 2 each lose 0, removing attachment.  Minim's post hadn't been updated with WillLem's result at the time I tried this level so I wasn't aware.]
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 12:54:35 pm by ccexplore »

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 1296
  • The Optimizer 8-)
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2019, 02:58:07 pm »
So, after looking at WillLem's solutions, I noticed that he was using up all 10 Cloners on every level. I ignored the unnecessary cloners and inspected on the rest. As Proxima mentioned, it was one of those things I forgot to clarify. The only edited results I can accept are skill changes, like Tricky 8. Terrain and object modifications are forbidden. That's why Rule #1 - Solve the level - is first priority.

No worries, I mainly did this for my own satisfaction. Like I said, for the purposes of this challenge by all means ignore any solutions where I altered terrain (there are only 2 of them, 3 if you count Taxing 17 which is the same layout as Fun 23).

I think WillLem's save all idea is a more useful order than the other way round, particularly so that we can use the same replays for later levels.

Thanks! And yes - it's quite useful being able to load up a replay from an earlier level to fulfil a later level. Through doing this, however, I managed to improve a few of my records in the process.

And in reply to the comments on the solutions:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I've had great fun doing these. Check out my updated replays and see if there's anything else you could improve skill-count-wise whilst still keeping maximum saves. 8-)

Offline Proxima

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 4100
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2019, 04:27:46 pm »
Fun 24: 2 of each, 100%. This improves on the result from the old thread.

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 1296
  • The Optimizer 8-)
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2019, 05:09:49 pm »
Fun 24: 2 of each, 100%. This improves on the result from the old thread.

That's a good one! :thumbsup:

Playing this pack with only the new skills makes you an expert at using stacker/platformer combos to build upwards. :laugh:

Offline Proxima

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 4100
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2019, 05:50:07 pm »
And bouncing on that, here's Mayhem 3 with 4 of each. (The Fun 24 solution no longer works because of the time limit.) In the old thread, namida didn't find any solution to this one. :P

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 1296
  • The Optimizer 8-)
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2019, 06:32:37 pm »
And bouncing on that, here's Mayhem 3 with 4 of each. (The Fun 24 solution no longer works because of the time limit.) In the old thread, namida didn't find any solution to this one. :P

Just done this one myself! I needed 7 of each tho... (solution attached).

ALSO! I've now found a way to beat We all fall down 1 of each, 100% saved (also attached!) See if you can figure it out before you watch my replay! I got the idea from my solution to Mayhem 3, incidentally. ;P

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 5319
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2019, 07:42:32 pm »
Ok, I got a "solution" for Tricky 28 ("Lost Something?"), but I don't think it should actually count.  The level in the original is solid steel for the steel block where the exit sits.  But the NeoLemmix conversion has all those decorative vines as regular terrain apparently cutting into the steel, making it no longer completely indestructible.  It seems a little wrong to count this as a solution when arguably the conversion of the level to NeoLemmix is not done accurately.  The decorative vines shouldn't be turning the steel into partial steel.

The level is probably impossible (ignoring nuke solutions) if the steel is completely solid, but as disappointing as that may be, it's a more honest result in my opinion.  Thoughts?

[edit: struck out part of sentence which is now proven false, see below]
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 08:12:39 pm by ccexplore »

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 5319
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2019, 08:11:48 pm »
The level is probably impossible (ignoring nuke solutions) if the steel is completely solid

So turns out it wasn't so bad to go with a nuke solution for this level, and hence the level is no longer impossible even with completely solid steel.  Attached is an attempt that uses 18 cloners (plus a few other skills) and loses 26 (remember to edit the level to increase the skill counts).  Given that I ended up saving 92 (level requires 90), it looks like I could probably get by with a few less cloners, and it's probably possible to lower the loss count a little as well.  Will leave that for others to explore.  The solution should probably also be re-verified (but the overall concept should still work) once the level is fixed to make the steel fully solid if we decide on that.

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 1296
  • The Optimizer 8-)
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2019, 10:41:29 pm »
Finally completed this challenge! I've now attached my replays for all levels to my results post above.

There were some very challenging levels amongst this lot, and I'm definitely feeling going ahead with a remix pack of the original game featuring both sets of skills. Playing through this has given me some great ideas of how to use the newer skills, so hopefully it will be an interesting pack.

Please let me know if this idea has already been done before I go ahead! I probably won't feature every level, just maybe the best 20 or 30 in a compilation pack.

I'll keep an eye on this challenge as well, some very interesting solutions appearing here! :thumbsup:

WillLem 8-)

Offline Crane

  • Posts: 861
    • View Profile
Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2019, 03:17:06 am »
I managed to complete some of the harder ones for you.  These are my first attempts, so I'm not sure if they can be improved in regards to skills used.