Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?  (Read 12455 times)

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Offline Minim

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[NeoLemmix] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« on: November 15, 2019, 08:49:05 am »
Several changes have been made to NeoLemmix within the past five years. Now with the inclusion of 10 skills in a skill bar, and that we also have 2 new skills (Shimmier and Fencer) to play with, I thought I might create a brand new thread instead of update the old one (Which I'm going to lock). I also remember whether we should be using the Cloner or not. I updated one of the criteria to reflect this. The results from the old thread (which can be found here) can be used as a reference point for some levels, but the setup guidelines are outdated, and some of the features aren't seen in the new NeoLemmix Player, such as Challenge Mode. Also, with the updated NeoLemmix mechanics we cannot guarantee that all solutions from the new version will be able to match the old version.

To save everyone else time and effort and also, to circumvent the lack of Challenge Mode I've gone over all the Original and OhNo levels and added 10 of each new skill to every level. If any more skills are needed let me know, or if there're any that I find, I'll reupload the levels. The downloads can be found at the bottom of this thread. The rules are similar to before:

1) Can the level be beaten with only the new skills?
2) If so, assuming an X-of-everything skillset, what is the lowest X the level can be beaten with? ^
3) How many lemmings can you lose? *

^For example, solving a level with 2 builders and 2 miners is better than solving it with 3 bashers, because you've only used any one skill a maximum of twice.

*This is a change from highest %. Since the Cloner is always available, it wouldn't be a good criterion to go for most lemmings saved, because players can just put the rest of the skills on Cloners once they are happy with the solution. One downside to this criterion however is that there is no accountancy for any lemmings lost for this engine so for the sake of this challenge please mention it!

Keep in mind that the Shimmier is still quite new and may be vulnerable to glitches. For solved levels, I will also include results where Rule #3 (Lemmings lost count) prioritises Rule #2 (X-of-each skillset).

Original Lemmings
Fun
1: 1 of each
2: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 2 of each, lost 0
3: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 2 of each, lost 0
4: 1 of each
5: 4 of each, lost 44 OR 9 of each, lost 0
6: 2 of each
7-10: 1 of each
11: 2 of each, lost 4 OR 10 of each, lost 0
12: 1 of each, lost 2 OR 2 of each, lost 0
13: 1 of each
14: 4 of each, lost 2 OR 5 of each, lost 0
15: 3 of each, lost 3 OR 4 of each, lost 0
16: 5 of each, lost 18 OR 6 of each, lost 0
17: 1 of each, lost 20 OR 2 of each, lost 0
18: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 10 of each, lost 0
19: 2 of each, lost 13 OR 6 of each, lost 0
20: 5 of each, lost 4 OR 7 of each, lost 0
21: No solutions found
22: 10 of each
23: No solutions found
24: 1 of each
25: 4 of each, lost 1 OR 7 of each, lost 0
26: 2 of each
27: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 6 of each, lost 0
28: 6 of each, lost 2 OR 9 of each, lost 0
29: 6 of each, lost 1 OR 10 of each, lost 0
30: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 2 of each, lost 0

Tricky
1: 1 of each
2: 1 of each
3: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 2 of each
4: 8 of each
5: 4 of each
6: 3 of each
7: 4 of each, lost 4 OR 9 of each
8: 7 of each, lost 11 OR 14 of each
9: 2 of each, lost 1 OR 6 of each
10: 9 of each
11: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 4 of each
12: 1 of each, lost 5 OR 4 of each
13: 2 of each, lost 3 OR 3 of each
14: 5 of each, lost 4 OR 8 of each
15: 1 of each
16: 6 of each, lost 1 OR 9 of each, lost 0
17: 2 of each
18: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 2 of each, lost 0
19: 1 of each
20: 5 of each, lost 1 OR 6 of each, lost 0
21: 3 of each
22: 1 of each
23: 1 of each, lost 2 OR 2 of each, lost 0
24: 2 of each, lost 2 OR 5 of each, lost 0
25: 2 of each, lost 2 OR 4 of each, lost 0
26: 1 of each
27: 4 of each, lost 2 OR 6 of each, lost 0
28: 18 of each, lost 26
29: 3 of each, lost 1 OR 4 of each, lost 0
30: 5 of each

Taxing
1: 3 of each, lost 3 OR 4 of each, lost 0
2: 3 of each, lost 1 OR 4 of each, lost 0
3: 6 of each
4: 9 of each, lost 5 OR 19 of each, lost 0
5: 4 of each, lost 2 OR 7 of each, lost 0
6: 1 of each, lost 20 OR 2 of each, lost 0
7: 8 of each
8: 4 of each
9: 1 of each
10: 3 of each
11: 4 of each, lost 4 OR 9 of each, lost 0
12: 5 of each, lost 5 OR 6 of each, lost 0
13: 3 of each
14: 12 of each
15: 4 of each, lost 1 OR 6 of each
16: 2 of each, lost 2 OR 8 of each, lost 0
17: No solutions found
18: 10 of each
19: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 9 of each
20: 6 of each
21: 2 of each
22: 4 of each
23: 11 of each, lost 1 OR 14 of each
24: 1 of each
25: 3 of each, lost 2 OR 6 of each
26: 4 of each, lost 4 OR 6 of each
27: 4 of each
28: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 4 of each, lost 0
29: 1 of each, lost 2 OR 2 of each
30: 1 of each

Mayhem
1: 10 of each, lost 8 OR 19 of each, lost 0
2: 4 of each
3: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 3 of each, lost 0
4: 4 of each, lost 1 OR 7 of each, lost 0
5: 6 of each, lost 2 OR 9 of each, lost 0
6: 2 of each, lost 1 OR 6 of each, lost 0
7: 6 of each
8: 11 of each, lost 10 OR 16 of each, lost 0
9: 6 of each, lost 1 OR 10 of each, lost 0
10: 5 of each, lost 12 OR 6 of each, lost 0
11: 1 of each
12: No solutions found
13: 2 of each
14: 8 of each
15: 10 of each
16: 1 of each
17: 4 of each, lost 2 OR 6 of each, lost 0
18: 6 of each, lost 2 OR 19 of each, lost 0
19: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 4 of each, lost 0
20: 2 of each
21: 2 of each, lost 1 OR 4 of each, lost 0
22: 6 of each
23: No solutions found
24: 3 of each
25: 2 of each, lost 3 OR 3 of each
26: No solutions found
27: 1 of each
28: No solutions found
29: 5 of each
30: 7 of each, lost 1 OR 8 of each, lost 0

Total for Original Lemmings
113/120 levels.

Oh No! More Lemmings
Tame
1: 1 of each, lost 15 OR 15 of each, lost 1
2: 1 of each
3: 3 of each
4: 2 of each
5: No solutions found
6: 2 of each
7-9: 1 of each
10: 5 of each
11: 1 of each
12: 3 of each
13: 2 of each
14: 2 of each
15: 1 of each
16: 2 of each
17: 3 of each
18: 3 of each
19: 4 of each
20: 1 of each

Crazy
1: 1 of each
2: 6 of each
3: 4 of each
4: 2 of each
5: 3 of each
6: 3 of each
7: 11 of each
8: 3 of each
9: 3 of each
10: 8 of each
11: 1 of each, lost 40 OR 15 of each, lost 1
12: 4 of each
13: 3 of each
14: 4 of each
15: 6 of each
16: 1 of each
17: 5 of each
18: 4 of each
19: 2 of each
20: 5 of each

Wild
1: 9 of each
2: 5 of each
3: 5 of each
4: 6 of each
5: 4 of each
6: 1 of each
7: 6 of each
8: 2 of each, lost 1 OR 10 of each
9: 3 of each
10: 3 of each
11: 4 of each
12: 5 of each
13: 11 of each
14: 3 of each
15: 7 of each
16: 2 of each
17: 3 of each
18: 3 of each
19: 10 of each
20: 2 of each

Wicked
1: 5 of each
2: No solutions found
3: 2 of each
4: 5 of each, lost 5 OR 9 of each
5: 1 of each
6: 5 of each, lost 2 OR 13 of each
7: 4 of each
8: 4 of each
9: 5 of each
10: 7 of each
11: 6 of each
12: 5 of each
13: 13 of each
14: 2 of each
15: 11 of each
16: 3 of each
17: 2 of each
18: 4 of each
19: 3 of each
20: 2 of each

Havoc
1: 3 of each, lost 2 OR 4 of each, lost 0
2: 9 of each, lost 5 OR 13 of each
3: 3 of each
4: 10 of each
5: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 3 of each
6: 3 of each, lost 3 OR 5 of each
7: 7 of each
8: 3 of each
9: 3 of each
10: 1 of each
11: No solutions found
12: 2 of each
13: 3 of each
14: 5 of each
15: 2 of each
16: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 3 of each
17: 1 of each
18: 9 of each
19: 4 of each
20: 3 of each, lost 2 OR 4 of each

Total for Oh No! More Lemmings
97/100

Covox Lemmings
Fun
1: 2 of each
2: 3 of each

Tricky
1: 3 of each
2: 5 of each

Taxing
1: 8 of each
2: 5 of each, lost 5 OR 10 of each

Mayhem
1: 2 of each
2: 3 of each, lost 1

Total for Covox Lemmings
8/8

Prima Lemmings
1: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 2 of each
2-4: 1 of each

Tricky
1: 9 of each
2: 22 of each, lost 32
3: 1 of each
4: 4 of each, lost 1

Taxing
1: 7 of each
2: 1 of each
3: 1 of each
4: 3 of each

Mayhem
1: 7 of each
2: 1 of each
3: 2 of each
4: 8 of each

Total for Prima Lemmings
16/16

Xmas Lemmings
Xmas 91
1: No Solutions Found
2: 6 of each

Xmas 92
1: 2 of each
2: 3 of each
3: 5 of each
4: 4 of each

Total for Xmas Lemmings
5/6

Holiday Lemmings
Frost
1: 2 of each, lost 1 OR 3 of each
2: 1 of each
3: 2 of each
4: 1 of each
5: 2 of each
6: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 2 of each
7: 3 of each
8: 1 of each
9: 1 of each
10: No solutions Found
11: 1 of each
12: No solutions Found
13: 1 of each
14: 2 of each
15: 2 of each
16: 1 of each

Hail
1: 7 of each
2: 2 of each
3: 10 of each
4: 4 of each
5: 3 of each
6: 0 of each, lost 41 OR 1 of each, lost 18
7: 7 of each
8: 6 of each
9: No Solutions Found
10: 3 of each
11: 4 of each
12: 2 of each
13: 3 of each
14: 9 of each
15: 3 of each
16: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 7 of each

Flurry
1: 3 of each
2: 2 of each
3: 1 of each
4: 2 of each
5: 3 of each, lost 32
6: 6 of each
7: 6 of each
8: 7 of each
9: 2 of each
10: 5 of each
11: 40 of each, lost 35
12: 1 of each
13: 1 of each
14: 2 of each
15: 1 of each
16: 6 of each, lost 1

Blitz
1: 6 of each
2: 6 of each
3: 40 of each, lost 35
4: 3 of each
5: 4 of each
6: 2 of each
7: 3 of each
8: 1 of each
9: 7 of each
10: 2 of each
11: 7 of each
12: 40 of each, lost 33
13: 6 of each
14: 50 of each, lost 35
15: 5 of each
16: 60 of each, lost 46

Holiday Lemmings Total
61/64

Extra Levels
Genesis
1: 5 of each
2: 2 of each
3: 3 of each
4: 10 of each
5: 4 of each
6: 6 of each
7: 1 of each
8: 3 of each
9: 6 of each, lost 97
10: 2 of each
11: 2 of each
12: 3 of each
13: 2 of each
14: 3 of each
15: 3 of each
16: 5 of each
17: 4 of each
18: 2 of each
19: 3 of each
20: 3 of each
21: 2 of each
22: 6 of each
23: 4 of each
24: 3 of each
25: 5 of each
26: 1 of each
27: 3 of each
28: 3 of each
29: 4 of each
30: 3 of each
31: 5 of each
32: 8 of each
33: 1 of each
34: 6 of each
35: 3 of each
36: 4 of each
37: 3 of each
38: 3 of each
39: 2 of each
40: 6 of each
41: 4 of each
42: 6 of each, lost 1
43: 15 of each
44: 5 of each, lost 1 OR 3 of each, lost 2
45: 7 of each
46: 2 of each, lost 2 OR 11 of each
47: 4 of each

Present
1: 2 of each
2: 2 of each
3: 4 of each
4: 3 of each
5: 3 of each
6: 72 of each, lost 74
7: 4 of each
8: 3 of each
9: 1 of each
10: 2 of each
11: 3 of each
12: 1 of each
13: 4 of each
14: 1 of each
15: 50 of each, lost 50
16: 2 of each
17: 2 of each
18: 2 of each
19: No Solutions Found
20: 5 of each, lost 1 OR 3 of each, lost 2
21: 1 of each
22: 3 of each
23: 3 of each
24: 5 of each
25: 4 of each
26: 3 of each
27: 8 of each
28: 5 of each
29: 2 of each
30: 4 of each

Sunsoft
1: 22 of each, lost 32
2: 2 of each
3: 4 of each
4: 7 of each
5: 4 of each
6: 3 of each
7: 3 of each
8: 5 of each
9: 3 of each
10: 1 of each
11: 1 of each
12: 3 of each
13: No Solutions Found
14: 13 of each
15: 11 of each
16: 7 of each
17: No Solutions Found
18: 6 of each, lost 13
19: 1 of each
20: 1 of each
21: No Solutions Found
22: 2 of each
23: 5 of each
24: 6 of each
25: 8 of each, lost 4
26: 2 of each
27: 2 of each
28: 6 of each
29: 1 of each
30: 2 of each

2P
1: 1 of each
2: No Solutions Found
3: 2 of each
4: 7 of each
5: 1 of each
6: 3 of each
7: 7 of each
8: 5 of each, lost 1
9: 6 of each
10: 5 of each
11: 6 of each
12: 3 of each
13: 4 of each
14: 0 of each
15: No Solutions Found
16: No Solutions Found
17: 8 of each
18: 0 of each
19: 0 of each
20: 3 of each, lost 1
21: 9 of each
22: 4 of each
23: 2 of each
24: 1 of each
25: 2 of each
26: 1 of each
27: 0 of each
28: 0 of each
29: No Solutions Found
30: 30 of each, lost 30
31: 0 of each
32: 1 of each, lost 5 OR 2 of each, lost 0
33: 2 of each
34: No Solutions Found

Sega
1: 2 of each
2: 2 of each
3: 3 of each
4: 6 of each
5: 6 of each
6: 3 of each
7: 2 of each
8: 2 of each
9: 6 of each
10: 3 of each
11: 6 of each
12: 3 of each

PSP
1: 2 of each
2: 2 of each, lost 3 OR 4 of each, lost 0
3: 2 of each, lost 3 OR 3 of each, lost 0
4: 3 of each
5: No Solutions Found
6: 3 of each
7: 3 of each
8: 3 of each
9: 4 of each
10: 4 of each
11: 3 of each, lost 1 OR 4 of each, lost 0
12: 3 of each
13: 4 of each
14: 2 of each
15: 2 of each
16: 1 of each
17: 2 of each
18: 5 of each
19: 5 of each
20: 1 of each
21: 2 of each
22: 3 of each
23: 5 of each
24: 1 of each, lost 1 OR 4 of each, lost 0
25: No Solutions Found
26: 2 of each
27: 4 of each
28: 1 of each, lost 2 OR 3 of each, lost 0
29: 3 of each
30: 2 of each
31: 2 of each
32: 1 of each, lost 3 OR 5 of each, lost 0
33: 2 of each
34: 7 of each
35: 1 of each
36: 2 of each

Other
1: 10 of each
2: 0 of each
3: 2 of each
4: 6 of each
5: 7 of each
6: 2 of each
7: 6 of each
8: 2 of each
9: 4 of each
10: 10 of each
11: 3 of each

Total for Extra Levels
189/200

Grand Total
489/514
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 08:59:17 am by Minim »
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Online namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2019, 05:59:20 pm »
Quote
*This is a change from highest %. Since the Cloner is always available, it wouldn't be a good criterion to go for most lemmings saved, because players can just put the rest of the skills on Cloners once they are happy with the solution. One downside to this criterion however is that there is no accountancy for any lemmings lost for this engine so for the sake of this challenge please mention it!

If we're only providing 10 cloners, then this still sets an upper bound on how many lemmings can be saved.

Quote
Keep in mind that the Fencer and Shimmier are still quite new and may be vulnerable to glitches.

I'd imagine Fencer should be quite stable by now - it's been around for a couple of years now. Shimmier might still prove glitchy, although so far it seems fine.

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Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2019, 02:04:39 pm »
Great idea for a challenge! I was thinking of remixing original Lemmings to include only new skills; seems you've beat me to it! I'll get on playing this pack straightaway and let you know what I come up with. :thumbsup:

Best,

-WillLem 8-)

Offline Minim

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Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2019, 12:07:29 pm »
Ah! Thank you, WillLem. :D I shall send those thanks to namida too, as he came up with the idea first. I only just saw this post after I completed the Fun levels, so you wanted to do these levels then I apologise. :P I'll submit them anyway. See if you can match or improve these, or if you want to, go for a new difficulty rating like Tricky. I'll probably do either Taxing or Mayhem.

So, with the update I managed to solve 28 Fun levels. :) 21 and 23 are still impossible even with the added Fencer. The levels I failed to match from the old thread are 13 and 24.

Replays attached for 11, 15, 19 and 22. The latter two are more of the "rough idea" kind, and may not be the final solution. 19 being how to get as much height as possible, and 22 being how to save fencers. I have saved replays for all the other levels of anyone needs them.

1: 1 of each skill, lost 0
2: 1 of each, lost 1
3: 1 of each, lost 1
4: 1 of each
5: 9 of each, lost 2
6: 2 of each
7: 1 of each
8: 1 of each, lost 1
9: 1 of each
10: 1 of each
11: 2 of each, lost 5
12: 1 of each, lost 23
13: 1 of each, lost 1
14: 4 of each, lost 2
15: 3 of each, lost 3
16: 5 of each, lost 18
17: 1 of each, lost 26
18: 1 of each, lost 1
19: 2 of each, lost 13
20: 5 of each, lost 4
22: 10 of each
24: 3 of each
25: 4 of each, lost 1
26: 2 of each
27: 1 of each, lost 1
28: 6 of each, lost 2
29: 7 of each, lost 20
30: 2 of each, lost 1
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2019, 01:47:27 pm »
If we're only providing 10 cloners, then this still sets an upper bound on how many lemmings can be saved.

I think 10-of-each was just to get people started, my understanding is that the challenge allows more than 10 if a level needs that.  That said, since this challenge seems to set up to minimize X first, the better your record is in terms of X, the less cloners you'd have to artificially bump up the save count anyway.

On a related note, are there upper limits built into the game?  If we can have potentially unlimited cloners, I do wonder if we can get some crazy nuke solutions for some levels that can still work out, by virtue of having cloned a crazy high number of lemmings so some would take nearly forever to actually explode?  (You'd use the nuke as a cheat way to get the effects of bombers.)  Or perhaps using nuke as part of solution should be disallowed altogether?

====================

Maybe you want to keep it as a separate challenge, but I also like the inverse idea where we go for minimum lemmings lost first, and then minimize X.  That is, a companion record that ranks rule #3 above rule #2.

Offline Minim

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Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2019, 04:34:53 pm »
Maybe you want to keep it as a separate challenge, but I also like the inverse idea where we go for minimum lemmings lost first, and then minimize X.  That is, a companion record that ranks rule #3 above rule #2.

That's a great idea! :thumbsup: Just like in Sokoban games where you can have record lowest moves and pushes in the same level, there's no reason why we can't implement a similar thing here. I'm going to add these results in the same thread and see if I can reword the OP to reflect this.

In fact, I decided to challenge myself to prove that the minimum lemmings lost challenge is different to the X-skills challenge; and I succeeded. On Fun 2 I was able to save all with 2-per skill. It's surprisingly difficult to find for such an early level! Replay attached.
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Online namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2019, 06:28:41 pm »
Quote
On a related note, are there upper limits built into the game?  If we can have potentially unlimited cloners, I do wonder if we can get some crazy nuke solutions for some levels that can still work out, by virtue of having cloned a crazy high number of lemmings so some would take nearly forever to actually explode?  (You'd use the nuke as a cheat way to get the effects of bombers.)  Or perhaps using nuke as part of solution should be disallowed altogether?

You can have 0 to 99 of a skill, or infinite (you can't have "greater than 99, but finite"). Infinite cloners may cause oddities with the postview texts, and could cause game lag if you use too many of them, but there is at least one level out there which naturally contains nearly 2000 lemmings* (although likely at most about 700 or so active at any one time - though removed lemmings still exist in memory, and are still "visited" during iterating through the lemmings although only to get a "this lemming is removed? go on to the next one" check) which runs without issue.

* "Infection Channel" from Lemmings Plus VI. The preview screen states 999 lemmings, but the actual level data specifies 1998 lemmings - it's a two-entrance level where one entrance spawns zombies, and the preview screen's lemming count excludes zombies. You'll never actually reach 1998 lemmings on screen at a time because the zombie entrance is directly above water, as well as the time limit running out before all 1998 lemmings have spawned. The save requirement is only 10, so this is hardly an issue gameplay-wise.

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WillLem's Results & Solutions - All New Skills - Maximum Saves [COMPLETED]
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2019, 08:46:55 pm »
Here are my replays, solutions and results! (see attached) I've gone for all-saves first, minimising skills second. Hopefully, this will be useful as a guide to the maximum skills required to get a 100% solution, and serve as a benchmark for people to improve on.

Please note that I decided to add original skills to impossible levels (noted below in grey), again to indicate what skills would be required to get maximum saves in these levels. For the purposes of the challenge, by all means disqualify the scores for these particular levels. I still plan to release these levels as a pack at some point anyway (with my solutions as the intended ones); so I went ahead and made the necessary changes. It's worth mentioning that, in all instances, I never needed to add more than 1 of only 1 additional skill in order to complete the level.

I always used all 10 cloners just because they were there and I wanted to save all the Lemmings, darn it! :laugh: But - I never counted them in the "of each" UNLESS they formed part of the solution (and even then, the amount of cloners used never surpassed the most-used skill in any level anyway).

Original Levels: Always maximum saves (0 losses). 8-) :party:

Fun 1 - 1 of each
Fun 2 - 10 of each
Fun 3 - 3 of each
Fun 4 - 2 of each
Fun 5 - 9 of each
Fun 6 - 2 of each
Fun 7 - 2 of each
Fun 8 - 5 of each
Fun 9 - 8 of each
Fun 10 - 2 of each
Fun 11 - 10 of each
Fun 12 - 2 of each
Fun 13 - 4 of each
Fun 14 - 5 of each
Fun 15 - 4 of each
Fun 16 - 10 of each
Fun 17 - 3 of each
Fun 18 - 10 of each
Fun 19 - 6 of each
Fun 20 - 7 of each
Fun 21 (added 1 digger) - 5 of each
Fun 22 - 10 of each
Fun 23 (added 1 basher) - 3 of each
Fun 24 - 4 of each
Fun 25 - 7 of each
Fun 26 - 3 of each
Fun 27 - 6 of each
Fun 28 - 9 of each
Fun 29 - 10 of each
Fun 30 - 3 of each

Tricky 1 - 2 of each
Tricky 2 - 3 of each
Tricky 3 - 3 of each
Tricky 4 - 9 of each
Tricky 5 - 5 of each
Tricky 6 - 5 of each
Tricky 7 - 9 of each
Tricky 8 (added stackers) - 16 of each
Tricky 9 - 6 of each
Tricky 10 - 9 of each
Tricky 11 - 7 of each
Tricky 12 - 4 of each
Tricky 13 - 6 of each
Tricky 14 - 8 of each
Tricky 15 - 1 of each
Tricky 16 - 10 of each
Tricky 17 - 2 of each
Tricky 18 - 3 of each
Tricky 19 - 2 of each
Tricky 20 - 10 of each
Tricky 21 - 4 of each
Tricky 22 - 5 of each
Tricky 23 - 2 of each
Tricky 24 - 5 of each
Tricky 25 - 10 of each
Tricky 26 - 1 of each
Tricky 27 - 6 of each
Tricky 28 (added 1 basher) - 2 of each
Tricky 29 - 7 of each
Tricky 30 - 5 of each

Taxing 1 - 4 of each
Taxing 2 - 5 of each
Taxing 3 - 10 of each
Taxing 4 (added walkers & stackers) - 19 of each
Taxing 5 - 7 of each
Taxing 6 - 3 of each
Taxing 7 - 10 of each
Taxing 8 - 5 of each
Taxing 9 - 1 of each
Taxing 10 - 5 of each
Taxing 11 - 9 of each
Taxing 12 - 6 of each
Taxing 13 - 10 of each
Taxing 14 (added platformers) - 16 of each
Taxing 15 - 7 of each
Taxing 16 - 8 of each
Taxing 17 (added 1 basher) - 3 of each
Taxing 18 - 10 of each
Taxing 19 - 10 of each
Taxing 20 - 8 of each
Taxing 21 - 2 of each
Taxing 22 - 6 of each
Taxing 23 (added stackers) - 16 of each
Taxing 24 - 4 of each
Taxing 25 - 6 of each
Taxing 26 - 9 of each
Taxing 27 - 6 of each
Taxing 28 - 4 of each
Taxing 29 - 3 of each
Taxing 30 - 3 of each

Mayhem 1 (added stackers) - 19 of each
Mayhem 2 - 5 of each
Mayhem 3 - 5 of each
Mayhem 4 - 7 of each
Mayhem 5 - 9 of each
Mayhem 6 - 6 of each
Mayhem 7 - 8 of each
Mayhem 8 (added walkers & stackers) - 22 of each
Mayhem 9 - 9 of each
Mayhem 10 (added platformers) - 16 of each (used cloners for solution!)
Mayhem 11 - 1 of each
Mayhem 12 (added walkers, platformers & stackers) (added 1 basher) - 17 of each - This is a humdinger of a solution; shame it doesn't officially count towards the challenge!
Mayhem 13 - 2 of each
Mayhem 14 - 8 of each (used cloners for solution!)
Mayhem 15 - 10 of each
Mayhem 16 - 1 of each
Mayhem 17 - 6 of each
Mayhem 18 (added walkers & stackers) - 19 of each
Mayhem 19 - 6 of each
Mayhem 20 - 2 of each
Mayhem 21 - 4 of each
Mayhem 22 - 8 of each
Mayhem 23 (added 1 basher) - 4 of each
Mayhem 24 - 3 of each
Mayhem 25 - 6 of each
Mayhem 26 (added 1 digger) - 5 of each
Mayhem 27 - 1 of each
Mayhem 28 (added 1 basher) - 9 of each
Mayhem 29 - 8 of each
Mayhem 30 (added stackers) - 16 of each

Oh No! Levels: Always maximum saves (0 losses). 8-) :party:

Tame 1 (added 1 digger!) - 1 of each
Tame 2 - 1 of each
Tame 3 - 3 of each
Tame 4 - 2 of each
Tame 5 (added 2 diggers & 1 miner) - 2 of each (if you weren't going for maximum saves you could use a bomber and make it 1 of each)
Tame 6 - 4 of each (used Minim's stacker-shimmer-glider method for this!)
Tame 7 - 1 of each
Tame 8 - 1 of each (used the cloner to achieve this!)
Tame 9 - 1 of each
Tame 10 - 5 of each
Tame 11 - 2 of each
Tame 12 - 3 of each
Tame 13 - 2 of each (used another of Minim's tricks here!)
Tame 14 - 2 of each
Tame 15 - 1 of each
Tame 16 - 2 of each
Tame 17 - 3 of each
Tame 18 - 3 of each
Tame 19 - 4 of each (this one becomes quite an interesting level!)
Tame 20 - 1 of each

Crazy 1 - 1 of each
Crazy 2 - 6 of each
Crazy 3 - 4 of each
Crazy 4 - 2 of each
Crazy 5 - 3 of each
Crazy 6 - 4 of each
Crazy 7 (added shimmiers & stackers) - 12 of each
Crazy 8 - 3 of each
Crazy 9 - 4 of each
Crazy 10 - 8 of each
Crazy 11 (added walkers, shimmiers, gliders, platformers, stackers & fencers) (added 3 minutes) - 40 of each!
Crazy 12 - 5 of each
Crazy 13 - 4 of each
Crazy 14 - 5 of each
Crazy 15 - 8 of each
Crazy 16 - 3 of each
Crazy 17 - 7 of each
Crazy 18 - 4 of each
Crazy 19 - 3 of each
Crazy 20 - 6 of each

Wild 1 - 9 of each (really happy with this solution - maybe you can find a way to get the skill count down)
Wild 2 - 5 of each
Wild 3 - 8 of each
Wild 4 - 6 of each
Wild 5 - 5 of each
Wild 6 - 1 of each
Wild 7 - 6 of each
Wild 8 (added 2 minutes) - 9 of each
Wild 9 - 3 of each
Wild 10 - 3 of each
Wild 11 - 4 of each
Wild 12 - 5 of each
Wild 13 (added 30 seconds) - 10 of each
Wild 14 - 3 of each
Wild 15 - 7 of each
Wild 16 - 2 of each
Wild 17 - 5 of each
Wild 18 - 3 of each
Wild 19 - 2 of each (so close to being 1 of each... but not quite sure how to achieve it with a 50RR)

Wicked 1 - 5 of each
Wicked 2 (added 5 diggers) - 5 of each
Wicked 3 - 3 of each
Wicked 4 - 9 of each (very messy solution!)
Wicked 5 - 1 of each
Wicked 6 (added fencers) - 13 of each (this is a good 'un, similar to Wild 1!)
Wicked 7 - 4 of each
Wicked 8 - 4 of each
Wicked 9 - 7 of each
Wicked 10 - 10 of each
Wicked 11 - 6 of each
Wicked 12 - 7 of each
Wicked 13 (added stackers) - 13 of each
Wicked 14 - 2 of each
Wicked 15 (added stackers) - 11 of each
Wicked 16 - 3 of each
Wicked 17 - 6 of each (the swimmers finally get some action! - and I've now saved that Fencer!)
Wicked 18 - 4 of each
Wicked 19 - 3 of each
Wicked 20 - 2 of each

Havoc 1 - 4 of each (used cloners to good effect here as inspired by your Wild 13 solution, but couldn't find a way to improve the score).
Havoc 2 (added stackers) 25 of each (whew...!!! that was EFFORT!)
Havoc 3 - 4 of each
Havoc 4 - 10 of each
Havoc 5 - Improved to 3 of each
Havoc 6 - 5 of each
Havoc 7 - 7 of each
Havoc 8 - 3 of each
Havoc 9 - 3 of each
Havoc 10 - 2 of each
Havoc 11 (added walkers & stackers) (added 4 diggers) - 22 of each
Havoc 12 - 2 of each
Havoc 13 - 3 of each
Havoc 14 - 6 of each
Havoc 15 - 2 of each
Havoc 16 - 6 of each
Havoc 17 - Improved to 1 of each
Havoc 18 - 9 of each
Havoc 19 - 6 of each
Havoc 20 - Improved to 4 of each

Other Levels: Always maximum saves (0 losses). 8-) :party:

Covox Fun 1 - 2 of each
Covox Fun 2 - 3 of each
Covox Tricky 1 - 3 of each
Covox Tricky 2 -  7 of each
Covox Taxing 1 - 8 of each
Covox Taxing 2 (added stackers) - 13 of each
Covox Mayhem 1 - 2 of each
Covox Mayhem 2 (added 1 digger) - 2 of each (used a variation on the dolly dimple technique to get all saves)

Prima Fun 1 - 2 of each
Prima Fun 2 - 1 of each
Prima Fun 3 - 1 of each
Prima Fun 4 - 1 of each
Prima Tricky 1 - 9 of each
Prima Tricky 2 (added 1 digger) - 1 of each
Prima Tricky 3 - 1 of each
Prima Tricky 4 (added 1 digger) - 1 of each
Prima Taxing 1 - 8 of each
Prima Taxing 2 - 1 of each
Prima Taxing 3 - 1 of each
Prima Taxing 4 - 3 of each
Prima Mayhem 1 - 7 of each
Prima Mayhem 2 - 1 of each
Prima Mayhem 3 - 3 of each
Prima Mayhem 4 - 8 of each

Xmas '91 1 (added 1 miner) - 3 of each
Xmas '91 2 - 6 of each
Xmas '92 1 - 2 of each
Xmas '92 2 - 3 of each
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Xmas '92 3 - 5 of each
Xmas '92 4 - 4 of each

Holiday '93 & '94 Levels: Always maximum saves (0 losses). 8-) :party:

Frost 1 - 3 of each
Frost 2 - 1 of each
Frost 3 - 2 of each
Frost 4 - 1 of each
Frost 5 - 3 of each
Frost 6 - 2 of each
Frost 7 - 3 of each
Frost 8 - 1 of each
Frost 9 - 1 of each
Frost 10 (added 1 basher, 3 miners, 3 diggers) - 3 of each
Frost 11 - 1 of each
Frost 12 (added 1 basher & 1 digger) - 2 of each
Frost 13 - 1 of each
Frost 14 - 3 of each
Frost 15 - 2 of each
Frost 16 - 1 of each

Hail 1 - Improved to 7 of each
Hail 2 - 2 of each
Hail 3 - Improved to 10 of each
Hail 4 - 7 of each
Hail 5 - 9 of each
Hail 6 (added 1 digger) - 1 of each
Hail 7 - Improved to 7 of each
Hail 8 - 6 of each
Hail 9 (added 1 basher and 6 builders) - 6 of each
Hail 10 - 3 of each
Hail 11 - 6 of each
Hail 12 - 2 of each
Hail 13 - 3 of each
Hail 14 - 9 of each
Hail 15 - 3 of each
Hail 16 - Improved to 9 of each

Flurry 1 - 3 of each
Flurry 2 - 2 of each
Flurry 3 - 1 of each
Flurry 4 - 2 of each
Flurry 5 (added 1 miner) - 1 of each
Flurry 6 - 7 of each
Flurry 7 - 6 of each
Flurry 8 - 8 of each
Flurry 9 - 3 of each
Flurry 10 - 6 of each
Flurry 11 (added 1 basher) - 1 of each
Flurry 12 - 1 of each
Flurry 13 - 1 of each
Flurry 14 - 2 of each
Flurry 15 - 1 of each
Flurry 16 (added 1 miner) - 2 of each

Blizzard 1 - 8 of each
Blizzard 2 - 8 of each
Blizzard 3 (added 1 digger) - 1 of each
Blizzard 4 - improved to 3 of each
Blizzard 5 - 4 of each
Blizzard 6 - improved to 2 of each
Blizzard 7 - improved to 3 of each
Blizzard 8 - 1 of each
Blizzard 9 - 10 of each
Blizzard 10 - 2 of each
Blizzard 11 - 10 of each
Blizzard 12 (added 1 miner and 1 digger) - 1 of each
Blizzard 13 - 7 of each
Blizzard 14 (added 1 miner) - 1 of each
Blizzard 15 - 6 of each
Blizzard 16 (added 1 digger) - 1 of each

Extra Levels: Always maximum saves (0 losses). 8-) :party:

Genesis 1 - 5 of each
Genesis 2 - 2 of each
Genesis 3 - 3 of each
Genesis 4 - 10 of each :lemcat:
Genesis 5 - 4 of each (finally used the swimmer!)
Genesis 6 - 6 of each
Genesis 7 - 1 of each
Genesis 8 - 3 of each
Genesis 9 - (added 1 miner) 1 of each
Genesis 10 - 2 of each
Genesis 11 - 2 of each
Genesis 12 - 3 of each :lemcat:
Genesis 13 - 2 of each
Genesis 14 - 3 of each :lemcat:
Genesis 15 - 3 of each :lemcat:
Genesis 16 - 5 of each
Genesis 17 - 4 of each
Genesis 18 - 2 of each
Genesis 19 - 3 of each :lemcat:
Genesis 20 - 3 of each :lemcat:
Genesis 21 - 2 of each :lemcat:
Genesis 22 - 6 of each
Genesis 23 - 4 of each
Genesis 24 - 3 of each
Genesis 25 - 5 of each
Genesis 26 - 1 of each
Genesis 27 - 3 of each :lemcat:
Genesis 28 - 3 of each
Genesis 29 - 4 of each
Genesis 30 - 3 of each :lemcat:
Genesis 31 - 5 of each
Genesis 32 - 8 of each
Genesis 33 - 1 of each :lemcat:
Genesis 34 - 6 of each
Genesis 35 - 3 of each :lemcat:
Genesis 36 - 4 of each
Genesis 37 - 3 of each
Genesis 38 - 5 of each
Genesis 39 - 3 of each :lemcat:
Genesis 40 - 6 of each
Genesis 41 - 4 of each
Genesis 42 (added 1 miner) - 5 of each
Genesis 43 - 21 of each
Genesis 44 (added 1 basher) - 3 of each
Genesis 45 - 7 of each
Genesis 46 - 15 of each
Genesis 47 - 11 of each

Present 1 - 3 of each
Present 2 - 2 of each
Present 3 - 4 of each
Present 4 - 5 of each
Present 5 - 4 of each
Present 6 (added 1 miner) - 1 of each
Present 7 - 10 of each
Present 8 - 4 of each
Present 9 - 2 of each
Present 10 - 3 of each
Present 11 - 3 of each
Present 12 - 1 of each
Present 13 - 4 of each
Present 14 - 2 of each
Present 15 (added 1 miner and 1 basher) - 1 of each
Present 16 - 2 of each
Present 17 - 2 of each
Present 18 - 2 of each
Present 19 (added 1 miner) - 2 of each
Present 20 (added 1 basher) - 3 of each
Present 21 - 1 of each
Present 22 - 3 of each
Present 23 - 4 of each
Present 24 - 4 of each
Present 25 - 4 of each
Present 26 - 3 of each
Present 27 (added 1 climber and 1 digger) - 3 of each
Present 28 - 8 of each
Present 29 - 2 of each
Present 30 - 5 of each

Sunsoft 1 (added 1 miner) - 2 of each
Sunsoft 2 - 3 of each
Sunsoft 3 - 4 of each
Sunsoft 4 - 8 of each
Sunsoft 5 - 4 of each
Sunsoft 6 - 4 of each
Sunsoft 7 - 3 of each
Sunsoft 8 - 5 of each
Sunsoft 9 - 6 of each
Sunsoft 10 - 1 of each
Sunsoft 11 - 1 of each
Sunsoft 12 - 3 of each
Sunsoft 13 (added 1 miner) - 5 of each
Sunsoft 14 (added 2 climbers and 2 diggers) - 2 of each (have a look at this one, it's cute!)
Sunsoft 15 (added 1 climber) - 1 of each
Sunsoft 16 (added 1 miner) - 2 of each
Sunsoft 17 (added 1 miner) - 3 of each
Sunsoft 18 (added 1 basher) - 3 of each
Sunsoft 19 - 1 of each
Sunsoft 20 - 2 of each
Sunsoft 21 (added 1 basher) - 3 of each
Sunsoft 22 - 2 of each
Sunsoft 23 - 5 of each
Sunsoft 24 - 7 of each
Sunsoft 25 (added 1 basher) - 6 of each
Sunsoft 26 - 2 of each
Sunsoft 27 - 1 of each
Sunsoft 28 - 8 of each
Sunsoft 29 - 1 of each
Sunsoft 30 - 3 of each

2P 1 - 1 of each
2P 2 (added 1 digger) - 9 of each
2P 3 - 2 of each
2P 4 - 10 of each
2P 5 - 2 of each
2P 6 - 3 of each
2P 7 - 7 of each
2P 8 (added 1 miner) - 1 of each
2P 9 - 6 of each
2P 10 - 6 of each
2P 11 - 10 of each
2P 12 - 3 of each
2P 13 - 4 of each
2P 14 - 0 of each!
2P 15 (added 1 digger) - 4 of each
2P 16 (added 1 basher) - 4 of each
2P 17 - 8 of each
2P 18 - 0 of each! (or 1 of each to save cloners)
2P 19 - 0 of each!
2P 20 (added 2 miners) - 2 of each
2P 21 - 10 of each
2P 22 - 4 of each
2P 23 - 2 of each
2P 24 - 1 of each
2P 25 - 3 of each
2P 26 - 1 of each
2P 27 - 0 of each!
2P 28 - 0 of each!
2P 29 (added 1 basher & 4 builders) - 5 of each
2P 30 (added 3 miners & 3 diggers) - 3 of each
2P 31 - 0 of each! (or 1 of each to save cloners)
2P 32 - 2 of each
2P 33 - 2 of each
2P 34 (added 1 miner) - 1 of each

Sega 1 - 2 of each
Sega 2 - 2 of each
Sega 3 - 3 of each
Sega 4 - 6 of each
Sega 5 - 6 of each
Sega 6 - 3 of each
Sega 7 - 2 of each
Sega 8 - 2 of each
Sega 9 - 6 of each
Sega 10 - 3 of each
Sega 11 - 6 of each
Sega 12 - 3 of each

PSP 1 - 2 of each
PSP 2 - 3 of each
PSP 3 - 3 of each
PSP 4 - 3 of each
PSP 5 (added 1 miner) - 3 of each
PSP 6 - 4 of each
PSP 7 - 4 of each
PSP 8 - 3 of each
PSP 9 - 4 of each
PSP 10 - 4 of each
PSP 11 - 6 of each
PSP 12 - 3 of each
PSP 13 - 4 of each
PSP 14 - 2 of each
PSP 15 - 2 of each
PSP 16 - 1 of each
PSP 17 - 2 of each
PSP 18 - 5 of each
PSP 19 - 5 of each
PSP 20 - 1 of each
PSP 21 - 2 of each
PSP 22 - 3 of each
PSP 23 - 5 of each
PSP 24 - 4 of each
PSP 25 (added 1 digger & 1 miner) - 2 of each
PSP 26 - 3 of each
PSP 27 - 4 of each
PSP 28 - 3 of each
PSP 29 - 3 of each
PSP 30 - 2 of each
PSP 31 - 2 of each
PSP 32 - 5 of each
PSP 33 - 2 of each
PSP 34 - 7 of each
PSP 35 - 1 of each
PSP 36 - 2 of each

Other 1 (added 1 climber & 1 basher) - 1 of each
Other 2 - 0 of each
Other 3 - 2 of each
Other 4 (added 4 builders) - 4 of each
Other 5 - 9 of each
Other 6 - 3 of each
Other 7 - improved to 5 of each
Other 8 - 2 of each
Other 9 - 4 of each
Other 10 (added 1 digger & 1 basher) - 8 of each
Other 11 - 3 of each

So there it is!!! I'm sure more advanced players than me will be able to improve on these scores, but I hope that this sets a decent benchmark for the all-saves part of the challenge.

All best,

-WillLem 8-)

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2019, 09:46:11 pm »
I haven't looked at any replays yet (haven't even installed NL on my new hard drive yet) but I wanted to reply to a couple of points quickly.

Since 10 cloners are available every time, and there's no good reason why the player shouldn't use them, I always used all 10; I liked the idea of being able to save the absolute maximum number of Lemmings every time! Therefore, I have interpreted this challenge as save maximum amount first priority, minimise skills second priority.

10 is an arbitrary number -- the levels have been saved with 10 of each just because they had to have some number, but the understanding is that this challenge aims to find the minimum N such that the level is solvable with N of each. For a given level, N may turn out to be greater than or less than 10.

It's going to be very confusing if everyone reports results in a different format, as well as giving the compiler more work, so I strongly suggest keeping to Minim's format: "N of each, lost X", even when solving the second version of the challenge, with higher savings (reduced losses) as first priority.

Quote
Have a look at my replays - it's not at all been easy to get 100% + 10 Lemmings every time, I assure you! ;P

We don't doubt that, but the hard part is saving 100%, not assigning Cloner ten times at the end :P

Quote
Please note that I decided to slightly modify Fun 21 and 23 to make them possible, since it's already been established that they're impossible in the original layout.

Just because one person didn't find a solution does not prove something to be impossible!

Online namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2019, 10:26:46 pm »
Quote
Just because one person didn't find a solution does not prove something to be impossible!

They're impossible. The only destructive skill you have is the Fencer, there is no way to create a horizontal or less-sloped tunnel with Fencers as the only destructive skill, and the Fencer's angle makes it impossible to get through obstacles in those levels (as you'll go out the top of the level and your lemmings die).

Online WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2019, 10:35:52 pm »
I'll be honest, it's frustrating having to reply to stuff like this when I thought I'd explained myself quite well initially, but here goes...


Since 10 cloners are available every time, and there's no good reason why the player shouldn't use them, I always used all 10; I liked the idea of being able to save the absolute maximum number of Lemmings every time! Therefore, I have interpreted this challenge as save maximum amount first priority, minimise skills second priority.

10 is an arbitrary number -- the levels have been saved with 10 of each just because they had to have some number, but the understanding is that this challenge aims to find the minimum N such that the level is solvable with N of each. For a given level, N may turn out to be greater than or less than 10.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I have used all 10 cloners because they're there to be used, and allow more Lemmings to be saved. I'm aware that the number is arbitrary, but any skills which allow more Lemmings to be saved legitimately contribute towards a maximum-possible saves record, so it's right to use them if maximum saves is on the agenda.

If the aim of the challenge is to find the minimum number of skills required, then simply discount the 10 cloners. In fact, there is no need for Minim to even do this because I specifically said that I'll only specify where I used cloners when they either allowed me to reach the required saves and/or formed an integral part of the solution.

It's going to be very confusing if everyone reports results in a different format, as well as giving the compiler more work, so I strongly suggest keeping to Minim's format: "N of each, lost X", even when solving the second version of the challenge, with higher savings (reduced losses) as first priority.

N of each what? To be honest, I don't quite understand Minim's format. Hence why I've specified exactly which skills I used. I've now updated my previous post to simply give the total number of skills, in case this is more useful to the compiler.

And again, I specifically said I didn't lose any Lemmings! :lemming:

Quote
Have a look at my replays - it's not at all been easy to get 100% + 10 Lemmings every time, I assure you! ;P

We don't doubt that, but the hard part is saving 100%, not assigning Cloner ten times at the end :P

I don't understand what you're saying here. I have saved 100% plus the ten cloners, i.e. if the cloners were discounted, I've saved 100%. But, since the cloners are there to be possibly saved, I have chosen to save them in addition to the 100% in order to get the maximum possible save in the level presented.

The fact that I've gone for maximum saves is just as much of a challenge as going for minimum skills/losses, because quite often the solutions require quite extensive work in order not to lose any Lemmings - check out my replays, I worked hard getting these solutions! I hope that they are useful in presenting a full picture of what's possible in this alternative version of the game.

Quote
Please note that I decided to slightly modify Fun 21 and 23 to make them possible, since it's already been established that they're impossible in the original layout.

Just because one person didn't find a solution does not prove something to be impossible!

This is a fair comment, I 100% agree! :thumbsup: But, I struggled to find a way to solve these levels as they were initally because none of the skills allow destruction of terrain downwards, and both of these levels require this in order to be solved. So, I changed the layout very minimally to make the levels possible.

What it comes down to is this:

Which is more important for this challenge - saving the maximum possible number of Lemmings, or using the minimum number of skills? I have opted to do both, but prioritise saving the maximum possible - which basically means never using the Stoner or allowing Lemmings to die if there is another possible solution (no matter how difficult).

If my contribution to this challenge thread is a problem, I'll happily create another challenge where the point is to ONLY save the maximum possible.

Or, if the challenger is happy to accept my contribution on the premise that I am always trying to save the maximum possible, and that the reason for this is to present this data however anyone wishes to use it, then there is no issue.

Let me know.

Sorry for the rant. ;P

Online namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2019, 11:02:37 pm »
Minim's "fewest lost" is better than "most saved" here, because it's independent of how many cloners you use. There could of course be cases where extra steps are needed to save the cloners (to give the most basic example I can think of, envision a level that's just a direct walk to the exit, with 10 lemmings; you can easily save 10 (lose 0) by doing nothing, but if you were given some Cloners, then in addition to assigning them, you'd have to do something to turn at least one lemming around or else it becomes lose-1), but this I suspect is quite uncommon among the official levles.

This could perhaps be resolved with a rule requiring every cloner to be meaningful, but the problem there is that "meaningful" is subjective. Is it meaningful if the cloner performs a later skill that any lemming could have performed (but in this case, you specifically get the clone to do it)? What if the cloner is used this way on a worker lemming, but it would have been possible to free a single lemming from the crowd instead? Would it count if you merely assign a destructive skill or permanent skill that has no actual real-world effect?

In general - the Cloner is not well suited to any situation where saved count matters, but the quantity of the Cloner skill is not fixed.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 11:07:56 pm by namida »

Online WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2019, 11:09:04 pm »
Minim's "fewest lost" is better than "most saved" here, because it's independent of how many cloners you use. There could of course be cases where extra steps are needed to save the cloners (to give the most basic example I can think of, envision a level that's just a direct walk to the exit, with 10 lemmings; you can easily save 10 (lose 0) by doing nothing, but if you were given some Cloners, then in addition to assigning them, you'd have to do something to turn at least one lemming around or else it becomes lose-1), but this I suspect is quite uncommon among the official levles.

Why is fewest lost better? Have a look at my replays - these were not easy solutions at all! Maximum saves is a very difficult challenge.

If fewest lost is the only point of the challenge and all other contribution to this thread is simply a nuisance (which is the impression I'm getting so far :(), then I'll create another thread where maximum saves is the aim. I was going to do this as a challenge anyway! ;P

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2019, 11:18:14 pm »
I assure you, it's equally frustrating for me when I try to help things run more smoothly and it's read as an attack, but hey, that's communication on the internet. It's hard to judge the tone of voice a post is written in, so it's easy for a small misunderstanding to lead to a big upset. I hope that won't stop us cooperating, since this looks like being a fun challenge (and it's been a long time since there was any activity here in Challenges).

Quote
N of each what? To be honest, I don't quite understand Minim's format.

Okay, I think that's the root of the disagreement, so let's go over this. The idea is to rank solutions by the highest number of an individual skill used. In other words, 8 fencers and 8 disarmers is "better" than 9 fencers and 1 stoner. The former solution would be possible with a skillset of 8 of each skill; the latter requires at least 9.

That means that although there are 10 cloners in the level file given, firstly, you can't use them freely because if you have, for example, a 2-of-each solution, you are making it worse by using extra cloners; secondly, if a level was not solvable with 10 of each, but might be solvable with a larger number of each, you are allowed to modify the level and report a solution for the larger number.

Just to be clear, I have nothing against you reporting the total number of skills used; it's just not part of this challenge as Minim originally proposed it, and so I wanted to make sure we are tackling the same challenge so as to avoid unnecessary effort.

 
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I don't understand what you're saying here. I have saved 100% plus the ten cloners

What I'm saying is that in terms of number of lemmings lost, it's equally good to save 50/50 as it is to save 60/50 with ten cloners. So the number of lemmings lost is a better way to write up the result, because that makes it really clear for the reader how good a solution is -- especially as we get to harder levels where we might well end up going over the 10-of-each for some levels.

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The fact that I've gone for maximum saves is just as much of a challenge as going for minimum skills/losses, because quite often the solutions require quite extensive work in order not to lose any Lemmings

Indeed, that was ccexplore's point -- both versions of the challenge are interesting. What I'm hoping for is that eventually we'll have a list of the best results for each level in both categories: smallest N-of-each first and minimum losses second, and the other way around.

I'm looking forward to having a go at this as soon as I have NL reinstalled :)

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix V12.7.1] Which levels can be beaten with the new skills?
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2019, 11:23:30 pm »
Why is fewest lost better? Have a look at my replays - these were not easy solutions at all! Maximum saves is a very difficult challenge.

So is fewest lost, because it's the same challenge. Given the same level and two solutions to it, the solution that loses fewer is the same as the solution that saves more.*

All that namida and I are saying is that reporting the solution in an "X lemmings lost" format is clearer. Yes, X = 0 for all the Fun levels, but that may not be true throughout the entire game.

*Except for Crazy 11 in DOS Lemmings with the nuke glitch. But that's not relevant here.

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If fewest lost is the only point of the challenge and all other contribution to this thread is simply a nuisance (which is the impression I'm getting so far :(), then I'll create another thread where maximum saves is the aim. I was going to do this as a challenge anyway! ;P

So I just want to make clear, you are not a nuisance, this is just a small misunderstanding to which we are trying to add clarity. Please don't create another thread for the same challenge.