Author Topic: Immediate turn-offs  (Read 18043 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • The King of Shimmiers (crowned by Flopsy ;D )
  • Posts: 1587
  • #RIP Spearer/Grenader (2020 - 2021)
    • View Profile
Re: Immediate turn-offs
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2021, 10:46:40 AM »
It has nothing to do with direct drop. ;)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 2489
  • Love is all you need
    • View Profile
Re: Immediate turn-offs
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2021, 12:50:03 PM »
Huh. I would have expected that to be impossible based on the fact that direct drop doesn't work.

Direct drop does work as long as the fall distance is below splat height.

The original "direct drop" bug was caused by the "splatter" and "faller" states being exitable, when really they shouldn't be. The lemming should be able to transition to "walker" first.

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2046
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: Immediate turn-offs
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2021, 10:14:34 PM »
Right, it's because splatters (fallers as well in some versions, but I don't think all ports with direct drop are affected) can exit. A splatter is actively dying, and I would expect an ohnoer to have similar behavior, i.e. not being able to exit.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 12214
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: Immediate turn-offs
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2021, 05:44:18 PM »
Quote
A splatter is actively dying, and I would expect an ohnoer to have similar behavior, i.e. not being able to exit.

I'd think of it like this: Someone who has fallen a long distance and hit the ground is probably already dead. Someone who is sick and about to die can sometimes be saved, we can assume that inside the exit is a very good team of medics with the Bomber antidote. :P
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 2489
  • Love is all you need
    • View Profile
Re: Immediate turn-offs
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2021, 08:02:17 PM »
we can assume that inside the exit is a very good team of medics with the Bomber antidote. :P

+1 for this :crylaugh:

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2688
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Immediate turn-offs
« Reply #65 on: February 25, 2021, 01:46:38 AM »
-big or huge sprawling levels
-levels which have or appear to have very complicated/involved many multi-step solutions.
-when the terrain appears to have been thrown onto the level without much planning or artistic input.

-------------

unusable bombers never bothered me one bit; I always chuckled a bit at them then moved on. While they may be the most used case of a skill you don't need in a puzzle level; any extra unnecessary skill can be inserted into the level to throw the player off. Of course most of the time doing that (with anything other than bomber) runs risk of inserting a back route, why it's so rarely done.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 10:28:21 PM by mobius »
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 2489
  • Love is all you need
    • View Profile
Re: Immediate turn-offs
« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2021, 11:01:26 PM »
-big or huge sprawling levels

I disagree; I love these sorts of levels as long as there are plenty of skills to craft out your own solution, or as long as the solution is relatively obvious. Conversely, large maps that are also complicated puzzles: yes, yuck!

-when the terrain appears to have been thrown onto the level without much planning or artistic input.

Agreed.

unusable bombers never bothered me one bit; I always chuckled a bit at them then moved on. While they may be the most used case of a skill you don't need in a puzzle level; any extra unnecessary skill can be inserted into the level to throw the player off

Having recently completed a speedrun of L1 on Amiga, I've come to the conclusion that the unusable Bombers were put there deliberately so that it would be possible for a player to accidentally assign a Bomber instead of, say, a Blocker or Floater (the adjacent skills). Since I have done that a couple of times whilst going through the run (mostly due to relying on arrow keys for skill selection, in real-time, at speed), I would say that this is almost certainly the reason they're there.

Levels like All Or Nothing, Stepping Stones and even (to some extent) We All Fall Down prove that the designers knew that the game had a layer of difficulty that had more to do with the controls than the puzzles, and putting random Bombers in there as another way to add execution difficulty seems like just the sort of thing that they would have found amusing at the time L1 was designed.

The thing is, since NeoLemmix has removed that element of difficulty from the game, it no longer has the same effect, it's just annoying.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2688
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: Immediate turn-offs
« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2021, 10:27:40 PM »
-big or huge sprawling levels

I disagree; I love these sorts of levels as long as there are plenty of skills to craft out your own solution, or as long as the solution is relatively obvious. Conversely, large maps that are also complicated puzzles: yes, yuck!

-when the terrain appears to have been thrown onto the level without much planning or artistic input.

Agreed.

unusable bombers never bothered me one bit; I always chuckled a bit at them then moved on. While they may be the most used case of a skill you don't need in a puzzle level; any extra unnecessary skill can be inserted into the level to throw the player off

Having recently completed a speedrun of L1 on Amiga, I've come to the conclusion that the unusable Bombers were put there deliberately so that it would be possible for a player to accidentally assign a Bomber instead of, say, a Blocker or Floater (the adjacent skills). Since I have done that a couple of times whilst going through the run (mostly due to relying on arrow keys for skill selection, in real-time, at speed), I would say that this is almost certainly the reason they're there.

Levels like All Or Nothing, Stepping Stones and even (to some extent) We All Fall Down prove that the designers knew that the game had a layer of difficulty that had more to do with the controls than the puzzles, and putting random Bombers in there as another way to add execution difficulty seems like just the sort of thing that they would have found amusing at the time L1 was designed.

The thing is, since NeoLemmix has removed that element of difficulty from the game, it no longer has the same effect, it's just annoying.

good point. Keep in mind this was the era where this sort of thing was common place. Take a look at games like Chips Challenge or Milon's Secret Castle or Zelda 2. "Gotcha" moments weren't shunned in game design like they are (in many cases anyway) nowadays. [What I call "fake difficulty]
However they're attempt at irritation never worked on me, in this regard anyways! It worked in plenty of other ways...
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Swerdis

  • Posts: 118
    • View Profile
Re: Immediate turn-offs
« Reply #68 on: August 12, 2021, 04:26:39 PM »
Having played and solved a considerable amount of level packs in the meantime, I give my 50 cents on this topic.

My turn-offs:

1. Boring and uncreative titles.

I dont' know how many "Bubble Bath"  levels or something like that exist....For my taste, titles often stick too close to the level itself, sometimes even spoiling the solution. I like good puns. And I like references to the real existing world outside. Be it literature, architecture, music, sports, natural science or whatever. "The pit and the pendulum" by Geoff comes to my mind in this moment.

2. Vertical scrolling levels

I've got two problems with these. First, these levels often require a lot of jumping back and forth. Secondly, and more importantly, these levels often come along with a lot of Bridge Building. Going from the bottom to the top is self-explanatory since it's the only way to gain height, but it's also true the other way round when bridges have to be built to save Lemmings from being splat. There ARE great levels of this kind like "Gravity Coaster" by Flopsy, but most of them are not.

3. Levels with more than 100 Lemmings

What's the point in that? I just can't see it. For me, even 60 Lemmings would be enough for any puzzle. I've never seen a +100 Lemming-level that wouldn't be as good with a siginificant number of Lemmings less.

4. Levels with more than 4 hatches

That's especially true when this goes along with huge levels and therefore a wild jumping back and forth again. It's even worse when all (or most of the Lemmings) are in immediate danger. I find these levels not fun to play.

5. Lemmings with terrain-removing skills that have to cancel out or pass through each other

This falls into the "easy to spot, but hard to execute" section. It should be the other way round.

6. Bad music

Ok, that's highly subjective. I just can say that I can't listen to the original tunes anymore, so I'm happy with every pack that uses custom music. I admit I have a soft spot for Arty's packs, especially Sub Lems, for he used different tunes for every single level. Considerung tunes, I'm not a big fan of loops too - that's too predictable for my taste.

7. Confusing backgrounds

Not a direct turn-off, but I prefer a simple, traditional black or dark-blue level-background over all these landscape-like alternatives. It looks clearer and it makes it easier to tell terrain from background-objects.


« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 05:03:17 PM by Swerdis »

Offline NieSch

  • Posts: 306
    • View Profile
Re: Immediate turn-offs
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2021, 10:17:11 AM »
I just can say that I can't listen to the original tunes anymore, so I'm happy with every pack that uses custom music.

Haha, maybe you play Lemmings too much? :crylaugh:

Joking aside, I agree with most of your points. But there are always exceptions to the rule. (For example point 3: I'm fond of my own "Yippee Finale" that features 250 Lemmings. ;))

Offline Armani

  • Posts: 458
  • :D
    • View Profile
Re: Immediate turn-offs
« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2021, 12:10:10 PM »
Ah interesting post! I've read all of these in the train going home.
I can definitely see something to keep in mind whenever I make a level.

For me, I enjoy every kind of level so there's nothing that really make me turn off immediately.
But if a pack contains so many 10+ of everything open-ended levels, I tend to lose interest quite quickly.
And I also don't like levels with a lot of animated objects. My old laptop simply stop working when I open those kinds of levels. :evil:
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0

Offline Swerdis

  • Posts: 118
    • View Profile
Re: Immediate turn-offs
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2021, 04:26:34 PM »
Quote
But there are always exceptions to the rule. (For example point 3: I'm fond of my own "Yippee Finale" that features 250 Lemmings. ;))

Hey, I remember this level and yes - it's a good one. I give you credits for this.