Poll

What is your current position on this idea?

I can see ways I would use this in my levels
6 (40%)
I don't have specific ideas for it but would like to play around with it
3 (20%)
I don't see myself using it, but would like to play levels with it
1 (6.7%)
I do not think this should be included
3 (20%)
I have no opinion either way
2 (13.3%)

Total Members Voted: 15

Author Topic: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Dynamite / Detonators  (Read 1572 times)

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Offline namida

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This proposal is for a pair of objects, similar to the current Button / Locked Exit setup. A level using these would have at least one "dynamite" and at least one "detonator" placed throughout the level. When all detonators have been pressed, all dynamites explode, with an effect similar to that of the Bomber skill.

Considerations:
- What should the size of the explosion be?
- Should it be harmful to lemmings nearby?
- Alternative possibility: Proxima's thought in Post #2.

Ruled out variations:
- Teleporter-like linking (one-to-one pairs and/or multiple sets). This would get too messy.
- Adding instead of removing terrain. Too much to consider around "what happens if a lemming is there?", and even more so if both adding and removing are possible in the same level.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 12:11:54 AM by namida »

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombs / Detonators
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2021, 08:55:33 PM »
Huh. You picture this differently from how I was picturing it. I thought the bombs would be inside specialised terrain blocks (which would be indestructible by other means), and detonating them would destroy those terrain blocks and nothing else.

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombs / Detonators
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2021, 09:11:35 PM »
Yeah, that's not how I pictured it at all, but I could see that idea being worthwhile too. (Although this would be a case of "one or the other", not "both" - I mean in the sense of it's worth considering whether your idea might be more worthwhile than the original one.)

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombs / Detonators
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2021, 03:29:21 PM »
Great idea :thumbsup:

Quote from: namida
What should the size of the explosion be?



Only joking :lemcat:

A large circular explosion would be good though. These bombs ought to be more destructive than regular lemming-Bombers, particularly if they require remote detonation.

Quote from: namida
Should it be harmful to lemmings nearby?

No, but it could trigger them to all transition to Jumper spontaneously. Serious idea 8-)

Quote from: namida
Should a different name instead of "bomb" be considered to avoid confusion with the Bomber skill? Perhaps "dynamite"?

Yes, "Dynamite" is a good idea.

Quote from: namida
Should they be able to remove steel?

No, steel should always be indestructable.

Quote from: Proxima
Huh. You picture this differently from how I was picturing it. I thought the bombs would be inside specialised terrain blocks (which would be indestructible by other means), and detonating them would destroy those terrain blocks and nothing else.

Strongly against this idea, unless you want NeoLemmix to become more and more like the mobile game ;P NeoLemmix is, ultimately, a pixel-level game, with many tools incorporated to facilitate this level of detail and design.

It seems a shame to limit the idea to only affecting certain-sized pre-placed blocks, rather than being able to place the object potentially anywhere in a level and have it affect multiple different pieces of terrain in any direction - this would be a far more useful and interesting way to implement it.

EDIT: Having said that, Proxima's idea could be re-interpreted as a "vanishing blocks" or "opening multiple doors" idea, which - to be fair - is equally interesting, but (to my mind) ultimately a different idea.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombs / Detonators
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2021, 03:33:29 PM »
+1 for the term "Dynamite". :thumbsup:

And yes, steel should remain indestructible. We may have Bomber-proof (and thus also Dynamite-proof) terrain by applying a new type of one-way object to it, but "destroyable steel" seems like an oxymoron within Lemmings games.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombs / Detonators
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2021, 04:51:58 PM »
Strongly against this idea, unless you want NeoLemmix to become more and more like the mobile game ;P NeoLemmix is, ultimately, a pixel-level game, with many tools incorporated to facilitate this level of detail and design.

It seems a shame to limit the idea to only affecting certain-sized pre-placed blocks, rather than being able to place the object potentially anywhere in a level and have it affect multiple different pieces of terrain in any direction - this would be a far more useful and interesting way to implement it.

The style designer would be free to make the destructible blocks any size, or resizable. This would then give the level designer a lot more freedom in how they use dynamite, compared to a fixed-size crater.

And yes, as a general proposition, the more levels depend on macroscopic decision-making and the less they depend on individual pixels, the better.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombs / Detonators
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2021, 08:08:57 PM »
The style designer would be free to make the destructible blocks any size, or resizable. This would then give the level designer a lot more freedom in how they use dynamite, compared to a fixed-size crater.

Agreed, but I still think the two ideas are so necessarily different that they could be split into two separate objects.

Your proposal would be best implemented as a (set of) locked door(s) which open(s) once all the buttons are pressed, whereas the "dynamite" idea would undoubtedly work best as a generally destructive object, which destroys all surrounding terrain by a certain number of pixels.

So, whichever of these is implemented, it would always feel like the other is missing. If only one can be implemented, my vote is for the "dynamite" style, since I can see more possible uses for it. "Unlocked door" style could also be interesting though, of course.

Offline GigaLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombs / Detonators
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2021, 08:29:20 PM »

Considerations:
- What should the size of the explosion be?
- Should it be harmful to lemmings nearby?
- Should a different name instead of "bomb" be considered to avoid confusion with the Bomber skill? Perhaps "dynamite"?
- Should they be able to remove steel? As they would only exist in fixed positions set by the level author, this does not have the same backroute concern (and/or a need for re-escalation with a "supersteel" that can't be destroyed at all) that a steel-removing skill would have, so could be considered.

For starters, I've never thought about this idea before, even if I did, I wasn't sure if it would be received warmly at all

Explosion size is subjective, but I would imagine putting the grenader's explosion radius to good use, since the skill is no longer in the game, i think the dynamite should provide a larger blast compared to the bomber

If its to just remove terrain, I don't think it should hurt lemmings, plenty of bomb themed traps kill lemmings already, even if it sounds like a stack a dynamite that destroys terrain should hurt lemmings, its better to let the lemmings survive the explosion if the dynamite is used to either destroy terrain at a splat fall's distance, it can be used to help or harm lemmings.

Removing steel is a bit of a tough one, you'd have to require users to add visual indicators for super steel and I'm not sure if I want to have two sets of steel pieces for nearly every set. If its just to remove terrain, it probably shouldn't remove steel

Another +1 from me as it is indeed an interesting idea

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombs / Detonators
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2021, 10:02:17 PM »
Quote
Removing steel is a bit of a tough one, you'd have to require users to add visual indicators for super steel and I'm not sure if I want to have two sets of steel pieces for nearly every set. If its just to remove terrain, it probably shouldn't remove steel

"Supersteel" is not under consideration. I mentioned it only to compare to a steel-removing skill, which could lead to the need for "supersteel" to define places even that skill couldn't destroy. With a pre-placed dynamite object, the level creator would have full control over what could or couldn't be removed by it, because they could simply not place it near stuff they don't want removed - therefore, "supersteel" would not be necessary.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombs / Detonators
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2021, 07:44:20 AM »
Regarding what should happen when it is triggered, I'd say keep it as simple as possible: have it work exactly like a bomber except maybe the size/shape of the crater.

One possible random thought of an idea (it might be a bad idea, tbh, but I'm just throwing it out there): perhaps the object could provide its own explosion mask to allow different shapes and sizes. Of course, this would rely on style creators to make fair designs and would need to be displayed somehow in clear physics.

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombs / Detonators
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2021, 07:22:07 PM »
Quote
One possible random thought of an idea (it might be a bad idea, tbh, but I'm just throwing it out there): perhaps the object could provide its own explosion mask to allow different shapes and sizes. Of course, this would rely on style creators to make fair designs and would need to be displayed somehow in clear physics.

I don't know that I like the idea of outright custom masks. Perhaps simply allowing objects (on the metaobject level, not the instance level) to specify a size is a bit more reasonable, though even that I wonder if it's too complex...

Offline GigaLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombs / Detonators
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2021, 08:35:16 PM »
Quote
One possible random thought of an idea (it might be a bad idea, tbh, but I'm just throwing it out there): perhaps the object could provide its own explosion mask to allow different shapes and sizes. Of course, this would rely on style creators to make fair designs and would need to be displayed somehow in clear physics.

I don't know that I like the idea of outright custom masks. Perhaps simply allowing objects (on the metaobject level, not the instance level) to specify a size is a bit more reasonable, though even that I wonder if it's too complex...

If that were to say be a thing, the bomb would need to show a skill shadow when you hover your cursor over it, while I like the idea of custom masks, the issue stems for inconsistency, having to learn about the bomb's explosion shape everytime. Interesting thought, but I understand why you wouldn't think its a bad idea.

Offline Armani

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombs / Detonators
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2021, 03:07:44 AM »
Will it be possible to destroy terrains inside the explosion area with any other destructive skills?(other than activating dynamite)
Or is it something like "steel" that can be destroyed by activating dynamite?

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombs / Detonators
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2021, 07:09:08 PM »
Will it be possible to destroy terrains inside the explosion area with any other destructive skills?(other than activating dynamite)
Or is it something like "steel" that can be destroyed by activating dynamite?


The original proposal was simply that this would function like a bomber (except perhaps larger). So, it would remove all normal terrain within range (but not steel, and if accepted, not anti-bomber walls), but you could also destroy that terrain the normal way first.

An alternative proposal was made to have the detonators destroy specific, destructible blocks, that presumably would be impossible to destroy any other way. Under this proposal, nothing else except those blocks would be destroyed by the detonators.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombs / Detonators
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2021, 01:31:16 PM »
An alternative proposal was made to have the detonators destroy specific, destructible blocks, that presumably would be impossible to destroy any other way

Hence why I'd suggest that this be split off as a separate idea; something like multiple locked doorways which are opened once all buttons are pressed could work for this.