Poll

What is your current position on this idea?

I can see ways I would use this in my levels
6 (40%)
I don't have specific ideas for it but would like to play around with it
3 (20%)
I don't see myself using it, but would like to play levels with it
1 (6.7%)
I do not think this should be included
3 (20%)
I have no opinion either way
2 (13.3%)

Total Members Voted: 15

Author Topic: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Dynamite / Detonators  (Read 1573 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Proxima

  • Posts: 4393
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Dynamite / Detonators
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2021, 02:28:36 PM »
Hence why I'd suggest that this be split off as a separate idea; something like multiple locked doorways which are opened once all buttons are pressed could work for this.

We are considering the gameplay mechanic first of all, and if it gets accepted, then we will consider how to "flavour" it, just as we did for the new skills.

I completely agree that my idea would be better "flavoured" as keys and doors -- and indeed, I'd say that is an advantage it has over the dynamite idea, in that it's more clearly distinct from bombers (and every other NL object). But it's still the same idea.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 11884
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Dynamite / Detonators
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2021, 12:53:33 AM »
Which brings me to a question that will have to be asked sooner or later:

What does this offer, that simply locking the exit (and placing buttons), and/or using pickup skills, doesn't? To be clear - in this case, I am not implying "there isn't anything", rather, I am implying (or now, just stating) that I haven't thought much about that either way and it's time to start doing so.

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3188
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Dynamite / Detonators
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2021, 08:48:07 AM »
Hmm, pickup skills are an argument against door-terrain. Destructive pickup skills can take the role of keys.

Part of history of door-terrain is that I sought for features to support my perceived core of Lemmings, assigning skills to alter the terrain to guide lemmings. In this light, the pickup skills as keys support the core even more than buttons as keys: Pickup skills even include the assignments.

-- Simon

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 3200
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Dynamite / Detonators
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2021, 09:44:16 AM »
Yeah, I agree. As we have pick-ups and buttons there is really next to no reason to have door-keys on top of that.

Offline Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3188
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Dynamite / Detonators
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2021, 08:20:35 PM »
When walkable ledges are made out of door-terrain, then the vanishing isn't purely beneficial. You can then create timing puzzles à la: A worker triggers key switches, and a second worker or the entire crowd must be well-timed to walk over the soon-vanishing door-terrain. If they're too early or too late, they fall to death.

Lemmings Revolution had some puzzles with this. I found it fiddly, but everyone else should also judge such timing puzzle possibilities. It gave Lemmings a touch of The Incredible Machine. Even if it's not 100% fitting, at least it's novel. With pickup skills, it feels harder to design such forcefully-timed terrain vanishing.

I have a weak hunch that NL has already plenty of other methods to enforce simultaneous action.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: August 01, 2021, 08:31:19 PM by Simon »

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 2221
  • "The quality of light around this time of year..."
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Dynamite / Detonators
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2021, 01:48:28 PM »
We are considering the gameplay mechanic first of all, and if it gets accepted, then we will consider how to "flavour" it, just as we did for the new skills.

Sure, but the mechanics for each idea are different, so there needs to be two separate topics, ideally:

Mechanic 1 (this topic) - Object that has "an effect similar to that of the Bomber skill" (quote from OP), perhaps best depicted as a detonated explosive. This is the only mechanic that should be being discussed in this topic, since that is the one originally proposed. Any other mechanics need to be posted as a separate suggestion/idea.

Mechanic 2 - Object that destroys only its own area and nothing else, perhaps best depicted as locked doors. Needs a separate topic because it's a completely different idea from the one proposed. Even if the original idea is rejected in favour of this idea, it is still a separate idea.

IMHO, the original idea needs to be either accepted or rejected before moving on to a variant or re-interpretation of that idea, otherwise it has basically been ignored.

To be clear, I am in favour of Proxima's idea. But I am also in favour of an object which destroys surrounding terrain, so I'd personally like to see both ideas being considered independently of each other rather than as mutual exclusives.

What does this offer, that simply locking the exit (and placing buttons), and/or using pickup skills, doesn't? To be clear - in this case, I am not implying "there isn't anything", rather, I am implying (or now, just stating) that I haven't thought much about that either way and it's time to start doing so.

It depends which idea you're referring to.

If the Dynamite object (i.e. the one that destroys terrain), then there are clear and obvious differences between this and a lockable exit/pickup skill; neither of the latter directly affect the layout of the level, and it is still yet to be decided whether the dynamite should be fatal to surrounding lems (I still think that they should "jump" out of the way upon detonation).

If the "Locked Doors" object (which currently doesn't have its own topic and probably should), then perhaps there aren't quite as many obvious differences, although it does allow for larger and more complex levels, and could also allow both joint and disjoint union concepts to appear simultaneously.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 11884
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Dynamite / Detonators
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2021, 07:18:28 PM »
Quote
To be clear, I am in favour of Proxima's idea. But I am also in favour of an object which destroys surrounding terrain, so I'd personally like to see both ideas being considered independently of each other rather than as mutual exclusives.

They serve very similar purposes, so I don't see much value in having both.

Quote
If the Dynamite object (i.e. the one that destroys terrain), then there are clear and obvious differences between this and a lockable exit/pickup skill; neither of the latter directly affect the layout of the level, and it is still yet to be decided whether the dynamite should be fatal to surrounding lems (I still think that they should "jump" out of the way upon detonation).

I realise there are differences on the surface level, but what overall levels can be created that specifically need this object, rather than being possible to set up the same idea with existing objects and/or other suggestions? That's what I'm asking here.

Offline WillLem

  • Posts: 2221
  • "The quality of light around this time of year..."
    • View Profile
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Dynamite / Detonators
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2021, 03:59:26 PM »
They serve very similar purposes, so I don't see much value in having both.

How? One is more like a pre-placed door opening, the other can potentially affect terrain in multiple directions. The end result is different enough to warrant separate discussion of the merits of each.

I realise there are differences on the surface level, but what overall levels can be created that specifically need this object, rather than being possible to set up the same idea with existing objects and/or other suggestions? That's what I'm asking here.

I'm not sure I can effectively contribute to this line of discussion. There are potentially infinite possibilities for level design, and I'm not a fan of the "prove it can't be simulated" argument in general. Builders can be simulated by using Walkers and Stackers, so should NeoLemmix not have Builders?

So, I'm out of this one discussion-wise. I think both ideas are good, I support the inclusion of either or both, and I'm happy to help with graphics if needed :lemcat:

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 11884
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Dynamite / Detonators
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2021, 04:45:19 PM »
Alright so, while the popularity is decent on this one, I'm really not convinced by the arguments, especially in light of there already being several ways to enforce going via a certain location (such as unlock buttons, pickup skills, preassigned disarmers behind OWWs...).

All things considered, I'm going to shut down this one at this point.