Lemmings Forums
NeoLemmix => Bugs & Suggestions => Closed => Topic started by: namida on July 15, 2021, 08:14:57 PM
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This proposal is for a pair of objects, similar to the current Button / Locked Exit setup. A level using these would have at least one "dynamite" and at least one "detonator" placed throughout the level. When all detonators have been pressed, all dynamites explode, with an effect similar to that of the Bomber skill.
Considerations:
- What should the size of the explosion be?
- Should it be harmful to lemmings nearby?
- Alternative possibility: Proxima's thought in Post #2.
Ruled out variations:
- Teleporter-like linking (one-to-one pairs and/or multiple sets). This would get too messy.
- Adding instead of removing terrain. Too much to consider around "what happens if a lemming is there?", and even more so if both adding and removing are possible in the same level.
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Huh. You picture this differently from how I was picturing it. I thought the bombs would be inside specialised terrain blocks (which would be indestructible by other means), and detonating them would destroy those terrain blocks and nothing else.
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Yeah, that's not how I pictured it at all, but I could see that idea being worthwhile too. (Although this would be a case of "one or the other", not "both" - I mean in the sense of it's worth considering whether your idea might be more worthwhile than the original one.)
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Great idea :thumbsup:
What should the size of the explosion be?
(https://i.imgur.com/F46lnyg.gif)
Only joking :lemcat:
A large circular explosion would be good though. These bombs ought to be more destructive than regular lemming-Bombers, particularly if they require remote detonation.
Should it be harmful to lemmings nearby?
No, but it could trigger them to all transition to Jumper spontaneously. Serious idea 8-)
Should a different name instead of "bomb" be considered to avoid confusion with the Bomber skill? Perhaps "dynamite"?
Yes, "Dynamite" is a good idea.
Should they be able to remove steel?
No, steel should always be indestructable.
Huh. You picture this differently from how I was picturing it. I thought the bombs would be inside specialised terrain blocks (which would be indestructible by other means), and detonating them would destroy those terrain blocks and nothing else.
Strongly against this idea, unless you want NeoLemmix to become more and more like the mobile game ;P NeoLemmix is, ultimately, a pixel-level game, with many tools incorporated to facilitate this level of detail and design.
It seems a shame to limit the idea to only affecting certain-sized pre-placed blocks, rather than being able to place the object potentially anywhere in a level and have it affect multiple different pieces of terrain in any direction - this would be a far more useful and interesting way to implement it.
EDIT: Having said that, Proxima's idea could be re-interpreted as a "vanishing blocks" or "opening multiple doors" idea, which - to be fair - is equally interesting, but (to my mind) ultimately a different idea.
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+1 for the term "Dynamite". :thumbsup:
And yes, steel should remain indestructible. We may have Bomber-proof (and thus also Dynamite-proof) terrain by applying a new type of one-way object to it, but "destroyable steel" seems like an oxymoron within Lemmings games.
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Strongly against this idea, unless you want NeoLemmix to become more and more like the mobile game ;P NeoLemmix is, ultimately, a pixel-level game, with many tools incorporated to facilitate this level of detail and design.
It seems a shame to limit the idea to only affecting certain-sized pre-placed blocks, rather than being able to place the object potentially anywhere in a level and have it affect multiple different pieces of terrain in any direction - this would be a far more useful and interesting way to implement it.
The style designer would be free to make the destructible blocks any size, or resizable. This would then give the level designer a lot more freedom in how they use dynamite, compared to a fixed-size crater.
And yes, as a general proposition, the more levels depend on macroscopic decision-making and the less they depend on individual pixels, the better.
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The style designer would be free to make the destructible blocks any size, or resizable. This would then give the level designer a lot more freedom in how they use dynamite, compared to a fixed-size crater.
Agreed, but I still think the two ideas are so necessarily different that they could be split into two separate objects.
Your proposal would be best implemented as a (set of) locked door(s) which open(s) once all the buttons are pressed, whereas the "dynamite" idea would undoubtedly work best as a generally destructive object, which destroys all surrounding terrain by a certain number of pixels.
So, whichever of these is implemented, it would always feel like the other is missing. If only one can be implemented, my vote is for the "dynamite" style, since I can see more possible uses for it. "Unlocked door" style could also be interesting though, of course.
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Considerations:
- What should the size of the explosion be?
- Should it be harmful to lemmings nearby?
- Should a different name instead of "bomb" be considered to avoid confusion with the Bomber skill? Perhaps "dynamite"?
- Should they be able to remove steel? As they would only exist in fixed positions set by the level author, this does not have the same backroute concern (and/or a need for re-escalation with a "supersteel" that can't be destroyed at all) that a steel-removing skill would have, so could be considered.
For starters, I've never thought about this idea before, even if I did, I wasn't sure if it would be received warmly at all
Explosion size is subjective, but I would imagine putting the grenader's explosion radius to good use, since the skill is no longer in the game, i think the dynamite should provide a larger blast compared to the bomber
If its to just remove terrain, I don't think it should hurt lemmings, plenty of bomb themed traps kill lemmings already, even if it sounds like a stack a dynamite that destroys terrain should hurt lemmings, its better to let the lemmings survive the explosion if the dynamite is used to either destroy terrain at a splat fall's distance, it can be used to help or harm lemmings.
Removing steel is a bit of a tough one, you'd have to require users to add visual indicators for super steel and I'm not sure if I want to have two sets of steel pieces for nearly every set. If its just to remove terrain, it probably shouldn't remove steel
Another +1 from me as it is indeed an interesting idea
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Removing steel is a bit of a tough one, you'd have to require users to add visual indicators for super steel and I'm not sure if I want to have two sets of steel pieces for nearly every set. If its just to remove terrain, it probably shouldn't remove steel
"Supersteel" is not under consideration. I mentioned it only to compare to a steel-removing skill, which could lead to the need for "supersteel" to define places even that skill couldn't destroy. With a pre-placed dynamite object, the level creator would have full control over what could or couldn't be removed by it, because they could simply not place it near stuff they don't want removed - therefore, "supersteel" would not be necessary.
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Regarding what should happen when it is triggered, I'd say keep it as simple as possible: have it work exactly like a bomber except maybe the size/shape of the crater.
One possible random thought of an idea (it might be a bad idea, tbh, but I'm just throwing it out there): perhaps the object could provide its own explosion mask to allow different shapes and sizes. Of course, this would rely on style creators to make fair designs and would need to be displayed somehow in clear physics.
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One possible random thought of an idea (it might be a bad idea, tbh, but I'm just throwing it out there): perhaps the object could provide its own explosion mask to allow different shapes and sizes. Of course, this would rely on style creators to make fair designs and would need to be displayed somehow in clear physics.
I don't know that I like the idea of outright custom masks. Perhaps simply allowing objects (on the metaobject level, not the instance level) to specify a size is a bit more reasonable, though even that I wonder if it's too complex...
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One possible random thought of an idea (it might be a bad idea, tbh, but I'm just throwing it out there): perhaps the object could provide its own explosion mask to allow different shapes and sizes. Of course, this would rely on style creators to make fair designs and would need to be displayed somehow in clear physics.
I don't know that I like the idea of outright custom masks. Perhaps simply allowing objects (on the metaobject level, not the instance level) to specify a size is a bit more reasonable, though even that I wonder if it's too complex...
If that were to say be a thing, the bomb would need to show a skill shadow when you hover your cursor over it, while I like the idea of custom masks, the issue stems for inconsistency, having to learn about the bomb's explosion shape everytime. Interesting thought, but I understand why you wouldn't think its a bad idea.
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Will it be possible to destroy terrains inside the explosion area with any other destructive skills?(other than activating dynamite)
Or is it something like "steel" that can be destroyed by activating dynamite?
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Will it be possible to destroy terrains inside the explosion area with any other destructive skills?(other than activating dynamite)
Or is it something like "steel" that can be destroyed by activating dynamite?
The original proposal was simply that this would function like a bomber (except perhaps larger). So, it would remove all normal terrain within range (but not steel, and if accepted, not anti-bomber walls), but you could also destroy that terrain the normal way first.
An alternative proposal was made to have the detonators destroy specific, destructible blocks, that presumably would be impossible to destroy any other way. Under this proposal, nothing else except those blocks would be destroyed by the detonators.
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An alternative proposal was made to have the detonators destroy specific, destructible blocks, that presumably would be impossible to destroy any other way
Hence why I'd suggest that this be split off as a separate idea; something like multiple locked doorways which are opened once all buttons are pressed could work for this.
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Hence why I'd suggest that this be split off as a separate idea; something like multiple locked doorways which are opened once all buttons are pressed could work for this.
We are considering the gameplay mechanic first of all, and if it gets accepted, then we will consider how to "flavour" it, just as we did for the new skills.
I completely agree that my idea would be better "flavoured" as keys and doors -- and indeed, I'd say that is an advantage it has over the dynamite idea, in that it's more clearly distinct from bombers (and every other NL object). But it's still the same idea.
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Which brings me to a question that will have to be asked sooner or later:
What does this offer, that simply locking the exit (and placing buttons), and/or using pickup skills, doesn't? To be clear - in this case, I am not implying "there isn't anything", rather, I am implying (or now, just stating) that I haven't thought much about that either way and it's time to start doing so.
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Hmm, pickup skills are an argument against door-terrain. Destructive pickup skills can take the role of keys.
Part of history of door-terrain is that I sought for features to support my perceived core of Lemmings, assigning skills to alter the terrain to guide lemmings. In this light, the pickup skills as keys support the core even more than buttons as keys: Pickup skills even include the assignments.
-- Simon
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Yeah, I agree. As we have pick-ups and buttons there is really next to no reason to have door-keys on top of that.
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When walkable ledges are made out of door-terrain, then the vanishing isn't purely beneficial. You can then create timing puzzles à la: A worker triggers key switches, and a second worker or the entire crowd must be well-timed to walk over the soon-vanishing door-terrain. If they're too early or too late, they fall to death.
Lemmings Revolution had some puzzles with this. I found it fiddly, but everyone else should also judge such timing puzzle possibilities. It gave Lemmings a touch of The Incredible Machine. Even if it's not 100% fitting, at least it's novel. With pickup skills, it feels harder to design such forcefully-timed terrain vanishing.
I have a weak hunch that NL has already plenty of other methods to enforce simultaneous action.
-- Simon
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We are considering the gameplay mechanic first of all, and if it gets accepted, then we will consider how to "flavour" it, just as we did for the new skills.
Sure, but the mechanics for each idea are different, so there needs to be two separate topics, ideally:
Mechanic 1 (this topic) - Object that has "an effect similar to that of the Bomber skill" (quote from OP), perhaps best depicted as a detonated explosive. This is the only mechanic that should be being discussed in this topic, since that is the one originally proposed. Any other mechanics need to be posted as a separate suggestion/idea.
Mechanic 2 - Object that destroys only its own area and nothing else, perhaps best depicted as locked doors. Needs a separate topic because it's a completely different idea from the one proposed. Even if the original idea is rejected in favour of this idea, it is still a separate idea.
IMHO, the original idea needs to be either accepted or rejected before moving on to a variant or re-interpretation of that idea, otherwise it has basically been ignored.
To be clear, I am in favour of Proxima's idea. But I am also in favour of an object which destroys surrounding terrain, so I'd personally like to see both ideas being considered independently of each other rather than as mutual exclusives.
What does this offer, that simply locking the exit (and placing buttons), and/or using pickup skills, doesn't? To be clear - in this case, I am not implying "there isn't anything", rather, I am implying (or now, just stating) that I haven't thought much about that either way and it's time to start doing so.
It depends which idea you're referring to.
If the Dynamite object (i.e. the one that destroys terrain), then there are clear and obvious differences between this and a lockable exit/pickup skill; neither of the latter directly affect the layout of the level, and it is still yet to be decided whether the dynamite should be fatal to surrounding lems (I still think that they should "jump" out of the way upon detonation).
If the "Locked Doors" object (which currently doesn't have its own topic and probably should), then perhaps there aren't quite as many obvious differences, although it does allow for larger and more complex levels, and could also allow both joint and disjoint union concepts to appear simultaneously.
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To be clear, I am in favour of Proxima's idea. But I am also in favour of an object which destroys surrounding terrain, so I'd personally like to see both ideas being considered independently of each other rather than as mutual exclusives.
They serve very similar purposes, so I don't see much value in having both.
If the Dynamite object (i.e. the one that destroys terrain), then there are clear and obvious differences between this and a lockable exit/pickup skill; neither of the latter directly affect the layout of the level, and it is still yet to be decided whether the dynamite should be fatal to surrounding lems (I still think that they should "jump" out of the way upon detonation).
I realise there are differences on the surface level, but what overall levels can be created that specifically need this object, rather than being possible to set up the same idea with existing objects and/or other suggestions? That's what I'm asking here.
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They serve very similar purposes, so I don't see much value in having both.
How? One is more like a pre-placed door opening, the other can potentially affect terrain in multiple directions. The end result is different enough to warrant separate discussion of the merits of each.
I realise there are differences on the surface level, but what overall levels can be created that specifically need this object, rather than being possible to set up the same idea with existing objects and/or other suggestions? That's what I'm asking here.
I'm not sure I can effectively contribute to this line of discussion. There are potentially infinite possibilities for level design, and I'm not a fan of the "prove it can't be simulated" argument in general. Builders can be simulated by using Walkers and Stackers, so should NeoLemmix not have Builders?
So, I'm out of this one discussion-wise. I think both ideas are good, I support the inclusion of either or both, and I'm happy to help with graphics if needed :lemcat:
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Alright so, while the popularity is decent on this one, I'm really not convinced by the arguments, especially in light of there already being several ways to enforce going via a certain location (such as unlock buttons, pickup skills, preassigned disarmers behind OWWs...).
All things considered, I'm going to shut down this one at this point.