Poll

Laser appearance?

Keep it as in RC5 (on the left in the video)
5 (100%)
Revert to pre-RC5 appearance (on the right in the video)
0 (0%)
I don't like either
0 (0%)
I don't mind either way
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 5

Author Topic: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc  (Read 1789 times)

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Offline namida

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[DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« on: January 20, 2021, 06:48:44 PM »
Alright - with the Laserer confirmed to be making it into NL, and the physics more or less set in stone, it's time to start discussing the cosmetic side of things. How should the laserer look? Should the name "laserer" be kept or should we pick something else? Is the current position on the skill panel alright?

At this point, this is the "no such thing as a bad idea (within reason)" phase. Feel free to make radical suggestions - I recall seeing either in another topic or on Discord the idea that maybe it should be a waterblaster rather than a laser, sure, that's the kind of idea that can be thrown around now. Remember - what's confirmed is "we're getting a skill with more or less the exact physics the Laserer has in the latest exp build"; not "we're getting a skill with more or less the exact cosmetics the Laserer has in the latest exp build".

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2021, 06:48:48 PM »
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Offline Gronkling

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2021, 07:03:05 PM »
Copying my response to a different thread

A laser seems too futuristic compared to other skills. A fun idea I had would be to make it just be a lemming yelling really loudly, with the sound acting as the laser, though this might be hard to visualise. Something like a water cannon or hosepipe is another idea to think about as a more original lemming-y feeling laser that can be visualised more easily.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2021, 07:39:05 PM »
Quote
At this point, this is the "no such thing as a bad idea (within reason)" phase. Feel free to make radical suggestions

Well, considering the angle of the skill, and the fact that it does ideed have a range limit, I could imagine something else the lemming might pull out, and it's not too far away from the already suggested hosepipe... :P

All jokes aside, I actually want the skill to keep the Laser as its tool in general, in order to make it relatable to the L2 skill that inspired it. As a consequence, Laser Blaster would of course be the name I prefer, but since that doesn't seem to fit the skill bar, "Laserer" is the best approximation I can think of.

Regarding animations: Would it be possible to take the sprite vom Lemmings 2: The Tribes and simply tilt it by 45 degrees? The L2 animation looks somewhat like a thick bright pillar, with darker green spirals moving up around it.
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2021, 08:46:18 PM »
I am very much in favor of keeping the laser as a base. I like the futuristic touch.

I am not sure if the current blast or the L2 one would be better, but I tend to the new red laser. Even though the red beam could maybe be more polished if we find ways to improve it.

Offline GigaLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2021, 11:15:20 PM »
I am very much in favor of keeping the laser as a base. I like the futuristic touch.

I am not sure if the current blast or the L2 one would be better, but I tend to the new red laser. Even though the red beam could maybe be more polished if we find ways to improve it.

Honestly this.

I like the futuristic touch of this skill, and I already have ideas on how to adapt the millas to this skill, but that's besides the point.

I still need to test this skill but I've been busy with a few things, but I am liking the certainty of it joining the stable builds, I'm happy with the way it looks and such. The only thing I could suggest is a thicker laser but that's about it.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2021, 12:24:08 AM »
+1 for keeping it as a laser, and I've always generally preferred "Laserblaster" over "Laserer" as a name, but I'm not set on it.

I quite like the beam as it is in all honesty, although I'm open to other ideas. Maybe a pulsating beam with a ripple effect might look cool, or it could even "twist" - really, the possibilities are endless for this. Making the laser beam customisable is something I'd strongly be in favour of, since then people could modify it to be a water cannon (or basically any other idea they wish), for custom sprite sets.

I had a play with the sprite a couple of weeks ago in the EXP, dressed the lem in a dark purple outfit, and made the laser cannon itself purple & silver. This is so it would be more easily identifiable on the panel (since no other skill currently has a purple motif); just messing around with the possibilities, I'm not suggesting that this be the final version by any means:



Very intrigued to hear other people's ideas! :lemcat:
« Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 01:55:07 AM by WillLem »

Offline GigaLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2021, 05:33:56 AM »
I do have something to add after all

In terms of naming if people wanted to change the name, I rather call it the "Blaster", "Beamer" or "Zapper"

I'm fine with sticking with laserer but I want to get my extra cents for alternate names for the laser beam

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2021, 06:40:51 AM »
GigaLem's suggestions roll off the tongue a bit better than Laserer, imo. Blaster maybe?

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2021, 09:39:11 AM »
Yeah - "Beamer" and "Zapper" don't quite feel right, but "Blaster" could certianly work.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2021, 01:37:48 PM »
"Blaster" sounds like it will be some variety of bomber with a larger crater, rather than a laser.

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2021, 07:23:09 PM »
Posts suggest a strong preference for remaining a laser, but put up a poll just in case there's a lot of silent opposition.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2021, 08:53:02 PM »
Yeah, "Blaster" was originally a name I had used for a joke skill that turns other lemmings into Bombers whenever the Blaster lemming touches them :D .

I do agree that Blaster rolls off the tongue better than Laserer, although I get we want the name to imply it's a laser that's being used. Then again, the Fencer isn't called Sword Fencer either, nor was the Miner ever called Pickaxe Miner. If it's clearly visible what the tool is that the lemming uses, maybe we don't need the word "Laser" in the name, as long as the animation clearly implies it's a laser? ;)

I actually asked my father about this, so as to get an unbiased layman opinion, and he immediately suggested "Blaster" (by himself, before I could even bring up the different options we were considering), when I said "Laser Blaster" is too long. For him, "Blaster" naturally implied that a laser would be used, it's basically an established term.

I'm using the layman example here to illustrate that the name should consequently be similarly transparent to a new NeoLemmix player ;) . My father is not a complete layman in terms of Lemmings, though - in fact, guess what, he was the one who originally introduced me to the game in the 90s ^^. But of course, he doesn't know much about the new skills we have in NeoLemmix.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 09:06:55 PM by Strato Incendus »
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Offline Simon

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2021, 11:43:56 PM »
Beamer is very nice.

Blaster is less precise, it can denote more other things than beamer can.

If you kept Laserer, I would colloquially call it Laser. There is weak precedence for this, L2 has the skills Magic Carpet and Icarus Wings.

Maybe there is something even better than Beamer/Laser that we don't know yet. Remote Diagonal Hollow Man.

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Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2021, 02:33:30 AM »
I actually quite like Zapper, but Blaster is probably the best suggestion so far.

Also, check out what comes up as the top spot for "laser gun" synonyms here... (as also confirmed by Strato's Dad :))

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2021, 05:53:06 PM »
Alright, definitely sticking with a laser then. A lot of people don't care either way, but among those who do, the preference to stick with a laser is much stronger than that for changing it.

Customizable beam might be tricky. I specifically chose not to use a graphic file in this case to keep the rendering fairly simple (it's already by far the most complex skill as far as rendering goes). However, simple tweaks like changing the color or making it a bit thicker are more feasible. The "blast" effect at the end is another matter - it's fairly feasible to make that come from a graphic file (it already gets the shape, just not the color, from one).

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2021, 11:47:53 PM »
Out of the suggestions around the laserer graphic so far, the most viable (other than alternate sprites, which is utterly trivial to actually implement and is simply a matter of someone making them) is thickening the laser beam. Here's a mockup adding an additional 1px to either side.

EDIT: To be very clear, this is about the visuals, not the destruction size; and is about the laser beam.

It's personally not my preference, but I would be okay with it. Putting up a poll.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2021, 04:45:17 AM by namida »

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2021, 03:22:58 AM »
1px thicker would still allow shimmying up the tunnel from inside it, and a basher to continue from the top of the tunnel to the bottom, so I'm okay with that. 2px thicker would still allow both, but the basher continues all the way without ever removing any terrain, which looks decidedly odd ;P

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2021, 04:44:34 AM »
1px thicker would still allow shimmying up the tunnel from inside it, and a basher to continue from the top of the tunnel to the bottom, so I'm okay with that. 2px thicker would still allow both, but the basher continues all the way without ever removing any terrain, which looks decidedly odd ;P

Sorry, you're misunderstanding. I'm talking about the visual appearance of the laser beam, not the destruction area (visually or physics-wise) around the impact point.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2021, 01:27:55 PM »
The exact width of the tunnel is as wide as the graphic needs to be, to avoid potential confusion.

Out of interest, how exactly is the laser graphic generated?

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2021, 07:00:26 PM »
The exact width of the tunnel is as wide as the graphic needs to be, to avoid potential confusion.

Try firing a laser where the (current) beam just misses the corner of some terrain, by a couple of pixels, and you'll see why this is a bad idea.

Quote
Out of interest, how exactly is the laser graphic generated?

The lemming, including the laser pointer he's holding, is a completely normal lemming sprite - nothing special about it whatsoever.

The laser itself is just three 1px thick diagonal lines, drawn together, from the lemming to the impact (or range-expiry) point. (The mockup above just adds one further line on each side.) Each frame, it alternates whether it's "inside white, outsides red" or vice versa.

The impact blast uses the additional circles (other than the destruction area one) from the laserer mask file, with hardcoded colors, overlapping them over each other and changing the colors around (with the outermost one sometimes being skipped altogether on certain frames) to create the mock-animation.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2021, 10:11:03 PM »
The exact width of the tunnel is as wide as the graphic needs to be, to avoid potential confusion.

Try firing a laser where the (current) beam just misses the corner of some terrain, by a couple of pixels, and you'll see why this is a bad idea.

I'm not seeing what you mean. However, maybe there's a misunderstanding here... Are you talking about the ball of light at the end of the beam, or the beam itself?

The ball of light should be no wider than the thickness of the tunnel it creates; meanwhile, the laser is perfect as it is (3px wide).

Offline Minim

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2021, 08:07:42 AM »
Sorry that I'm late to the party, but I have some important thoughts to raise after trying out the laserer on a few levels now.

Visually, I'm finding the alternating red and white part of the laserer's diagonal beam far too flashy and strobe (And would certainly give my mum a migraine if she saw this). :XD: I think yellow and white would be less stroby if we still want a flashing effect; otherwise we should have a constant line with white in the middle and red around the outside (See picture below).
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Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2021, 07:46:16 PM »
^ I'm certianly open to this if people would prefer it. I'd like it to have some kind of animation, but perhaps this could just be a more-subtle change in the lightness/darkness of the beam rather than the alternating colors.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2021, 09:00:11 PM »
Visually, I'm finding the alternating red and white part of the laserer's diagonal beam far too flashy and strobe (And would certainly give my mum a migraine if she saw this). :XD: I think yellow and white would be less stroby

+1, and I'd also promote the idea of reverting to the previous single-strand laser, rather than the double one, for much the same reasons - it's less stroby and more naturally laser-looking IMHO.

^ I'm certianly open to this if people would prefer it. I'd like it to have some kind of animation, but perhaps this could just be a more-subtle change in the lightness/darkness of the beam rather than the alternating colors.

Maybe we can brainstorm some ideas and get something swish :lemcat:

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2021, 06:42:49 AM »
I think something subtle is a better idea than alternating colors, which generally aren't too pleasant to look at (although the laser blaster isn't horrible in this regard, but still).

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2021, 05:06:08 PM »
Here's a video of a laser from shutterstock: https://www.shutterstock.com/video/clip-33970387-animation-laser-beam-on-black-background-alpha

The main strand of the beam stays white, whilst the outer part of the beam shimmers varying shades of red. The light beam also appears to move in a definite direction (in this case, towards the ground).

I've made a laser beam object which attempts to emulate this style using alpha channel reds to create waves either side of a single-colour strand. Note that this is a fairly thick graphic just to demo the effect; I'm sure it could be modified to fit the size of the laserer's beam.



(Place the object into your copy of the willlem_special style).
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 05:15:16 PM by WillLem »

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2021, 07:57:44 PM »
The whole "varying intensities" thing would be very complicated to implement, and could also result in a huge performance hit (especially if alpha blending is used).

I'm going to narrow the scope down a bit here. I am open to the following changes, specifically:
1. Making the whole beam wider or narrower. Not "different thickness at different points" (but it could be different in different frames of the animation, as long as it's the same for the entire beam in any single frame). However, the beam will remain just a straight line in one or more colors.
2. Altering the colors of the beams in the direction of the laser. To be clear about what I mean here - see the attachment; A is fine, B is not. (I should be clear that I don't see A as a good actual suggestion to use, it's just good for illustrating what I mean here.)

There's a bit more flexibility with the impact blast - the shape of the blast comes from a graphic file, with only the color being determined at runtime.

Do keep in mind that it needs to be adaptable to high-res, too. The same rules apply to high res, although there's twice as many diagonal lines making up the laser, so it can certainly be more detailed - and it is perfectly fine for the high res one to contain a larger variety of colors than low-res (I'd imagine this would most likely be in the form of "some inbetween colors are used to create a nicer gradient" than outright "it's more colorful", but right now I'm just talking about what's technically feasible more than what's a good idea).

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2021, 03:55:00 AM »
How about this? It needs a bit more finessing, but you get the general idea.

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2021, 05:31:47 AM »
I've done something like that (but a bit simpler) in commit 72386dc.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2021, 05:24:38 PM »
Looks great :thumbsup:

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Laserer - Naming, visuals, etc
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2021, 07:11:38 PM »
I've put up a poll regarding the laser appearance.

EDIT: Here's a video with both laserers: https://youtu.be/KDwbrgci-v8
The one in front is the old-style one, the one behind is the new one.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 07:55:00 PM by namida »