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NeoLemmix => Bugs & Suggestions => New Objects => Topic started by: namida on April 11, 2020, 08:50:56 PM

Title: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on April 11, 2020, 08:50:56 PM
No further suggestions are being taken.



Similar to the skill for the final new skill, let's discuss the final few object types to add. I'll stress again that this is "types", in this case I am willing to add more than one. I don't have an exact limit in mind, but I'm envisioning perhaps three or four get added - certianly, it won't be "every suggestion gets implemented" or even "every suggestion that has decent potential and isn't too hard to implement, gets implemented". This of course could depend on several factors - if it's something with a "left" and "right" variation, or perhaps two opposing objects (like splatpads vs antisplat pads), then perhaps I count it as "one" object and still add a couple more. Complexity is also a factor, of course.

I'll compile a list of relevant topics later (maybe) - please feel free to suggest topics to add to it (but perhaps PM me or mention them on Discord, so that it doesn't clutter up this topic just with links to others). Likewise, the "ruled out" list is only at this stage a few things that immediately came to mind, and it will likely grow - as might the "willing to consider" or even "strong contenders" - as I think of ideas.

Suggestions don't need to be great right away - good ideas can often be found by refining ones that aren't so great, yet do have seeds of potential. However, let's not post any outright joke suggestions in this topic.

The earliest any of these will make an appearance will be V12.14.X.

Not relevant to this topic
- Screen wrap - this is a general mechanic, not an object of any kind

Ruled out
- Anything that is not an object
- Anything involving changing the direction of gravity
- Anything that the player directly interacts with / controls (like the moveable blocks in Lemmings Touch / moveable objects in L2)
- Anything capable of infinitely spawning additional lemmings (but I am open to ideas that spawn a limited amount)
- Anything that creates terrain (but removing terrain can be considered)
- Anything that is very obviously not a fit for the NeoLemmix philosophy (eg. effects that are random or highly chaotic; effects that mess with the UI; etc)
- Slight variations that don't add much value on existing objects
- One way up / down force fields (too many edge cases that need to be individually learnt; and too complicated to implement)
- One-lemming-may-pass trap / door (easily simulated by careful terrain layouts or other suggestions)
- Slippery terrain (too complex)
- Permanent-skill-only exits (already been discussed and rejected before)
- Splat fields / antisplat fields (we already have the pads + updrafts, and while there's a small degree of possibilities that are unique to one or the other, the vast majority of use cases overlap and are just a cosmetic difference)
- Object erasers (too messy, and too open to abuse)
- Trampoline (voted out)
- Fuser / "lemming combiner" (voted out)
- Linker / entangler (voted out)
- Diagonal one-way arrows (voted out)
- Toggle buttons or switches (complexity)
- Downdraft (complexity)
- No-assignment field (practicality concerns)
- Zombifier (unnecessary, most setups could be achieved using an actual zombie instead)
- Dezombifier (technical reasons)
- Vortex / catch-all exit (not enough difference from existing object)

Willing to consider
- Bombs / detonators (when all detonators are pushed, all bombs explode)
- Unbombable wall (like a 5th direction of one way arrows, which is immune to bombers but can be destroyed by everything else)
- Neutralizer / Deneutralizer (but not Dezombifier)

Strong contenders
- Portals (teleporters that are constant rather than triggered; ie: a portal is to a teleporter, what a fire object is to a triggered trap)
- Permanent skill assigner
- Permanent skill remover
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on April 11, 2020, 08:51:07 PM
(Reserved, just in case)
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: IchoTolot on April 11, 2020, 08:53:42 PM
I would be in favor of the permanent skill remover so far.

It's something that isn't possible until now and I think it could come in handy. :)
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: DireKrow on April 11, 2020, 09:29:31 PM
Compared to skills - which I'm a bit picky about - there's honestly a lot of objects or modifications to existing objects that I could see being useful:

Non-assignment fields or surfaces
Permanent skill assigner, permanent skill remover
Allowing buttons to toggle hatches/traps/teleporters/etc
Traps (or doors?) that allow one lemming past then exclude all others
Portals, bi-directional teleporters, screen wrap
Blue/green hatches + blue/green exits
Neutralizer, un-neutralizer, un-zombifier
Springs/trampolines
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: GigaLem on April 11, 2020, 09:41:56 PM
Gonna be honest here, I'm in favor in pretty much all that is not only considered but also strong contenders. I can easily see great puzzles being made with them.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Strato Incendus on April 11, 2020, 10:46:43 PM
First of all, I'm very happy to see portals are already on the list! :thumbsup: I thought these were a property of Lemmings Revolution only; little did I remember that this is actually how teleporters work in Lemmings 2: The Tribes as well! Only in Lemmings 3D were they release-rate sensitive.

Both in L3D and L2, teleporters are bidirectional, as far as I remember. Portals in Lemmings Revolution definitely are.

In that sense, I'd definitely need portals for at least some of my L2-style levels in Lemmings Hall of Fame :D !

With trampolines, apparently it's the other way round - release-rate sensitive in L2, non-release rate sensitive in L3D. I prefer non-release-rate-sensitivity for objects anyway (well, aside from triggered traps! :D ), so I'd be happy to see trampolines implemented the L3D way!

Quote
Blue/green hatches + blue/green exits

Since hair colour changes with regular lemming vs. athlete state, how about we turn this into "exits that allow only specific types of permanent skills to enter"? ;) This would become even more interesting with the permanent-skill-removal object. Another instance of NeoLemmix becoming more like the puzzle game Star Wars: Pit Lems!

Quote
Non-assignment fields or surfaces

I support those as well, and I would love to see them implemented specifically as ice / slippery terrain, like in L3D / L2! :thumbsup:



My additional suggestions would be:
- up- and down one-way fields (discussion thread: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4767.0)
- diagonal one-way arrows (discussion thread: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4546.0)
- terrain that can be activated and deactivated with toggles / buttons, like the retractable barriers in Lemmings Revolution (active terrain: contains lemmings, provides a bridge for them, or is an obstacle; deactivated terrain: opens gaps to pass through, or opens gaps that need to be crossed in a different way)

Finally: Screen wrap is technically not an object, but a former gimmick. Yet, it has already been mentioned by others, and I already expressed my support for this as well, so I'll do so here again.

But just in case we're talking about bringing back any other former "gimmicks" besides wrap - since Superlemming has already been ruled out (at least to my understanding) - I would love to see Karoshi mode back! ;) (For the newer forum members: This means an option to enable on individual levels that leads to the player having to kill the lemmings instead of saving them ;) . It's clearly visible from the start of the level, because the title screen then says "N lemmings to be killed", rather than "N lemmings to be saved", and one could probably think of an additional reminder during level playing, like a skull on the panel, next to the save requirement etc.)

After all, the death animations of lemmings were kind of what got the whole game started at DMA in the first place... :evil:
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Proxima on April 11, 2020, 11:03:05 PM
My thoughts on all the proposals so far, except the "ruled out" ones. For those who don't want to read a wall of text, I'll use talisman icons:

:tal-gold: Yes please!
:tal-silver: This has definite potential, and I'd be in favour so long as it doesn't result in something I like more missing out.
:tal-bronze: Not sure about this one, and considering we don't want a glut of new object types, that really means I'd probably vote against.
:8(): No. This should be eaten by the clam.

* * * *

:tal-gold: No-assignment field: Extremely handy as a backroute preventer, but can also be the starting point for a puzzle in its own right (e.g. here's a wall you need to get up; there's a NAF in front of it so you can't just build up).

:8(): Ice / slippery terrain: There is a big problem with this idea. We already have ice in some tilesets, and it is not slippery. Introducing new ice that is slippery when old ice isn't would be very confusing.

:tal-gold: Portals: This is what teleporters should always have been, and if we can't just change teleporters to work as portals because of existing content, then adding them as a new object would still be a welcome move. I think it adds enough puzzle potential and (more importantly?) subtracts enough user annoyance to be viable even though it's a variant on an existing object.

:tal-bronze: Trampoline/spring: Back when Lix had these, I was always against them, but then, Lix trampolines had a variable result depending on where the lix jumped or fell from, so it was often hard to know exactly where you could reach and where you couldn't. As I understand, the proposed NL object is a spring that, essentially, gives lemmings the Jumper skill without consuming a skill. While that does remove much of the annoyance of the Lix trampoline, it's still a niche object that will only see occasional use, especially if we do add portals.

:tal-bronze: Zombifier / neutraliser and their converses. For starters, I don't agree that we have to have all four if we have one. (If we have more than one, new users have to learn what they look like and how to distinguish them.) So let's discuss them separately. Lemming -> zombie is the least useful because that's what a zombie already does. Use a preassigned blocker if you want him to be stationary. Lemming -> neutral has some potential if it's unavoidable and you have to babysit the neutral, but does this really add anything we can't already do with neutral preplaced lemmings and hatches?

Neutral -> normal lemming has some potential, because you have to direct the neutral to the object; but "direct the neutral" puzzles can already be done by having to direct them to an exit. Zombie -> normal is the most interesting, because you have to direct the zombie while avoiding being infected. However, this too can already be done, either by having to direct the zombie to its death, or direct a zombie disarmer to a trap.

:tal-silver: Permanent skill remover: I can imagine a lot of different puzzles using this, so it definitely has potential. I just don't feel I'd especially feel the lack of it if it didn't get added, though.

:8(): No-effect animations: Why? This is just lying to the player, something we've agreed again and again is not NL's philosophy. If something visible happens in response to a trigger, it should have an effect.

:8(): Permanent skill assigner: No, this is getting out of hand. Just use a pick-up skill if you want a permanent skill to be only available after reaching a certain point.

:tal-silver: Buttons and gates: This has a lot of potential. How I see it working: a gate is an indestructable rectangular object (i.e. all interactions with it are the same as interactions with steel), and buttons can be assigned to open or close certain gates when stepped on. The gate would have three parts and only the middle part would open, so the "frame" would show the presence of a gate, and it would be possible to have gates that start open.

:8(): Buttons that can affect any object: This is overcomplicated and doesn't really do much you can't already do with buttons and gates. (I know I suggested it in another topic, but that wasn't intended seriously.)

:8(): Gates that only let one lemming past: Not worth being a separate object since this is easy to set up with a button and gate.

:tal-bronze: Blue/green hatches and exits: To spell out what DireKrow is suggesting, the idea is that there are two sets of lemmings, with no difference between them except that some exits can only take one of the two sets. Of course, they shouldn't actually be blue and green, since we already have green to show that a lemming has a permanent skill. I can see some possibilities for this, but it's already possible to set up, with permanent-skill hatches and two (or more) exits that require different permanent skills to reach.

:8(): Permanent-skill-only exits as an object: Redundant. You can already do this with a normal exit.

:tal-bronze: Up and down one-way fields: There are some situations where these would be handy, but I'm not wild about them.

:8(): Diagonal one-way arrows: We have enough one-way arrows already, and the player has to remember different rules for each type. Let's not.

:tal-bronze: Screen wrap: We have this in Lix, and it's mainly a multiplayer feature, with occasional use in single-player puzzles. I don't think it adds enough to be worth considering at this stage, especially since it can be simulated with portals.

:8(): Karoshi: Sure, it was fun as a one-off, but the decision that was made when we scrapped gimmicks is that the rules of play should not vary from level to level. That's why zombies were promoted to a main feature instead of a gimmick: they don't violate that rule. Namida has made clear that screen wrap will only be coming back if it's also in a non-violating way: allowing the player to scroll continuously instead of surprising them when a lemming walks off-screen and comes back on the other side.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on April 11, 2020, 11:12:26 PM
Great topic, Namida. A few +1s from me, in order of preference (my "definite-support-for-this-idea" items are in bold, the others I think would be cool):

Portals
Colour-specific hatches + exits
Allowing buttons to toggle hatches/traps/teleporters/etc
Un-zombifier & un-neutralifier
Permanent skill assigner/remover

No-assignment field
Springs/trampolines

Also:

TurboLemming Maker! :lemcat: ;P :forehead: (I'm sorry: no more joke ideas, I promise!)

Quick question: what are "no-effect triggered animations"?

---

And, last but by no means least, I'd like to take this opportunity to re-state my case for the splat/anti-splat fields (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4725), and how it's different enough from the pads to justify implementation alongside them:

Benefit 1: The fields can be easily resized to cover entire areas of terrain: even if dug into, or built over, the field remains active throughout the block - the puzzle potential for this is massive.

Benefit 2: Fields are clearer and neater than pads, which can make a level look a bit messy if there are too many of them.

Benefit 3: They can cover irregular-shaped terrain such as spikes, crystal clumps, staircases, and other decorative terrain.

Benefit 4: I'd probably assert that a field is easier to quickly understand than a pad (for new players) - not only because it's a familiar concept to existing Lemmings players, but also more specifically because lemmings fall through the pads, and it's actually the terrain below it that is the point of contact.

I'd also state that the idea seemed to be popular when I made the original topic, and so may be worth looking into; ccexplore also posted with some ideas for how it could be made possible. Since posting the topic I've redesigned the fields so that they have smiley faces on them rather than "SPLAT" and "NO SPLAT", but they could theoretically be any colour and have any design.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Strato Incendus on April 11, 2020, 11:24:37 PM
Quote from: WillLem
TurboLemming Maker!

Quote from: namida
However, let's not post any outright joke suggestions in this topic.

:P

Quote
Ice / slippery terrain: There is a big problem with this idea. We already have ice in some tilesets, and it is not slippery. Introducing new ice that is slippery when old ice isn't would be very confusing.

No, we have snow on various tilesets, not ice... :P

Ice as in "the thing that makes lemmings trip and fall on their backside" in Lemmings 2 has a distinct animation (frozen water-pond with sparkling star reflections at the top) that can be easily distinguished from the regular snow landscape that is made up of terrain. This animation could be used, even if the ice behaved not like in Lemmings 2 but like e.g. the slippery blocks in L3D.

Quote
Screen wrap: We have this in Lix, and it's mainly a multiplayer feature, with occasional use in single-player puzzles. I don't think it adds enough to be worth considering at this stage, especially since it can be simulated with portals.

Yes, when it comes to the "time-economic" aspect of "how many objects can namida reasonably introduce before the final version hits?", i.e. if some features need to be discarded simply because time won't allow them, then wrap could be sacrificed for portals because that feature can be "nested" within portals. The thing with portals is that they limit the wrap to the specific locations they're in.

Of course you could technically simulate a perfect wrap by surrounding the entirety of the level edges in portal trigger areas, but it would probably look pretty dumb and confusing. Especially since the player technically can't rely on the idea that every single one of these portals takes the lemming to the opposite site of the level, instead of somewhere else. Leaving level wrap to be done with portals can thus bear huge trolling potential (you have an entire level border full of "wrapping" portals, and then one random portal hidden somewhere among them that leads straight to the exit, or into a trap, etc.).
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: DireKrow on April 11, 2020, 11:47:43 PM
:8(): Permanent skill assigner: No, this is getting out of hand. Just use a pick-up skill if you want a permanent skill to be only available after reaching a certain point.

I disagree with "just use a pickup". The assigner works on all lemmings so it avoids having to assign all 30 lemmings with whatever skill. Having a pickup of 30 climbers would be pretty tedious. Next, the fact the lemmings have to go to the position of the assigner rather than being able to assign the skills anywhere is very significant. It makes it stronger at preventing backroutes than a pickup, and it can be incorporated into the puzzle itself, if the challenge is getting the crowd to the assigner. It can also be a puzzle to avoid the assigner, either completely or with select lemmings

:8(): Gates that only let one lemming past: Not worth being a separate object since this is easy to set up with a button and gate.

You're assuming button activated gates get in, though. A trap which arms once one lemming goes past is a different thing and is worth including on its own in the event that gates do not. While I was making my LDC 20 levels, there was a couple of occasions where I really wish I could allow one lemming through an area without allowing the crowd access. Currently there's no easy way to do this without making the single worker a climber, floater, etc, but what if you don't want to or can't do that?

Quote
Namida has made clear that screen wrap will only be coming back if it's also in a non-violating way: allowing the player to scroll continuously instead of surprising them when a lemming walks off-screen and comes back on the other side.

Why can't we just have a glowy effect on the map edges if wrap is in play, or something?
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on April 12, 2020, 12:03:14 AM
Quote
Why can't we just have a glowy effect on the map edges if wrap is in play, or something?

This is also an option, though not my preference. The important thing is that it's clearly communicated to the player.

But at any rate, "screen wrap" is not an object, and discussion of it does not belong in this topic, except maybe in terms of how it directly interacts with (or makes redundant, or is made redundant by) proposed objects.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Proxima on April 12, 2020, 12:06:25 AM
You're assuming button activated gates get in, though.

No, I'm saying that given a choice between the two, buttons-and-gates is a clear winner, because it can do everything a one-lemming gate can and more. (Although there is an issue with multiple lemmings in exactly the same place; but wouldn't a one-lemming gate also have that problem?)

Quote
Why can't we just have a glowy effect on the map edges if wrap is in play, or something?

That would be inconvenient on large levels, where it would be hard to judge where the lemmings will end up when they wrap at a certain point. But my point was that we don't want the rules of play to change from level to level; nothing to do with making it visible. You would have a stronger objection if you'd said "actually, any kind of wrap is in violation of that principle", and that is more or less true; I should modify my claim to say that if we introduce wrap, we want to make it feel like less of a violation by making it as consistent with the feel of a normal level as possible.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on April 12, 2020, 12:32:06 AM
Quote
Why can't we just have a glowy effect on the map edges if wrap is in play, or something?

This is also an option, though not my preference. The important thing is that it's clearly communicated to the player.

But at any rate, "screen wrap" is not an object, and discussion of it does not belong in this topic, except maybe in terms of how it directly interacts with (or makes redundant, or is made redundant by) proposed objects.

Just whilst it's come up: it's still my general feeling that screen wrap's implementation in-game ought to be the choice of the player: if they'd prefer the level to scroll continuously, that's what they'll see. If they'd prefer a glowing edge and lems walking off one side and reappearing the other, same again.

But yeah, maybe a separate topic to discuss wrap? I think there already is one somewhere...
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Dullstar on April 12, 2020, 07:07:58 AM
New idea:

Downdraft

The downdraft is to the splat-pad what the updraft is to the anti-splat pad. Any faller that enters a downdraft instantly has its fall distance set to a fatal height. Floaters, gliders, and swimmers that will land in water can safely pass through a downdraft (unless the falling lemming lands on an anti-splat pad or enters an updraft before landing), and walkers can freely enter as long as they don't fall. This object would solve a lot of frustrations I've had patching backroutes in levels with constructive skills that can be abused to create safe landing pads (vertical scrolling can be a workaround, but I like to avoid excessive scrolling when possible - it pains me to introduce vertical scrolling into a level that didn't otherwise need it simply because not making the level tall resulted in backroutes). Splat pads are difficult to use in this way due to their limited trigger areas, and in some cases their placement can interfere with the intended solution. Plus, they're harder to use with long fall into water set-ups with Swimmers.

Since the floater and glider are affected by updrafts, they probably should be affected by downdrafts too for consistency, but it's not necessary. They shouldn't splat if they hit the ground while they're in the field, though, since it's cleaner and simpler if the rule is that floaters/gliders never splat (it's also consistent with how splat pads work).

It likely wouldn't even require new graphics, as it could play the updraft animation backwards.
Downdrafts cannot overlap with updrafts (this should probably be handled comparably to how overlapping one-way-walls are handled).
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on April 12, 2020, 01:13:21 PM
Splat pads are difficult to use in this way due to their limited trigger areas

Have you seen the splat/anti-splat fields (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4725) idea?

I like the idea of downdrafts too, btw. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Strato Incendus on April 12, 2020, 07:48:56 PM
I happen to just have created a Space level featuring a black hole, with one-way fields simulating its gravity from the sides, updrafts simulating it from below... and yes, downdrafts from the top would definitely be nice to complete the picture! :thumbsup:

We'd have to ask ourselves though to what extent Gliders would move differently inside downdrafts, since down is their natural direction of movement. Would downdrafts allow them to descend at a steeper angle?
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on April 12, 2020, 10:01:07 PM
Quote from: Proxima
No-effect animations: Why? This is just lying to the player, something we've agreed again and again is not NL's philosophy. If something visible happens in response to a trigger, it should have an effect.

1. It's already possible to do this anyway, at least in single-use form. Just use an unlock button, on a level that doesn't have locked exits. It could probably also be done with some creative use of teleporters and receivers. (Please don't actually do this. Wait until the feature is properly implemented.)
2. We accept animated or static-graphic no-effect objects, I don't see much difference between that and this. Of course, both can be abused, but that falls on style creators not to do so - it should be clear that this is a decorative object.
3. Especially on levels without locked exits (and thus no other case that could explain this behaviour), the fact that the lemming just keeps walking past would be a strong indicator that this is a no-effect animation.



Anyway, I've updated the first post with most of the suggestions. A few of them fall under the new "catch-many" clause that I honestly can't believe I even need to mention: "Anything that is not an object" is, while perhaps not rejected outright, this topic is not the place to discuss it. This includes things like multiple colors / groups of lemmings, screen wrap, Karoshi, etc. Those should only be discussed in this topic if they directly relate to a proposal for a new object type - keeping in mind that any object type that's only suitable for use in conjunction with a new mechanic is very likely to fall under "too limited in use" and/or "too complex" anyway. (Side note, Karoshi is not going to happen. Zombies had excellent potential without breaking any normal rules - just adding new ones. Wrap is ultimately not really a gimmick in the form it's being proposed to be restored in; it's more just allowing a different map shape rather than the standard finite-sized rectangle. On the other hand, Karoshi is objectively a gimmick that twists the normal rules.)
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on May 15, 2020, 08:36:26 PM
Just wanting to re-open this discussion.

I'm particularly interested in the idea of lemming-specific entrance hatches and exits. To some extent, this can be set up by using limited-number exits, but going a step further to incorporate 2-Player-style gameplay where certain exits only allow certain lems through would, I think, be a really interesting way forward...
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on May 15, 2020, 09:41:42 PM
Just wanting to re-open this discussion.

I'm particularly interested in the idea of lemming-specific entrance hatches and exits. To some extent, this can be set up by using limited-number exits, but going a step further to incorporate 2-Player-style gameplay where certain exits only allow certain lems through would, I think, be a really interesting way forward...

Permanent-skill-only exits will not be happening, if that's what you're referencing. If you just mean as in Blue vs Green lemmings like in 2P mode, with no other differences - as per the post above yours, this topic isn't the place to discuss that, as it's not an object type. It might need to involve a new object type, or rather, a new setting on existing object types; but the object type is not the primary "new" thing it brings. (At any rate, it's also very unlikely to happen - without even starting to consider any technical considerations, how do you propose it would work visually, keeping in mind there's a limited color space for recoloring and much of it is already used?)
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on May 16, 2020, 06:15:34 AM
Permanent-skill-only exits will not be happening, if that's what you're referencing.

No, I didn't mean that... :-[

If you just mean as in Blue vs Green lemmings like in 2P mode, with no other differences

Yes, this is what I meant! :lemcat:

this topic isn't the place to discuss that, as it's not an object type.

Ah, right... :forehead:

At any rate, it's also very unlikely to happen - without even starting to consider any technical considerations, how do you propose it would work visually, keeping in mind there's a limited color space for recoloring and much of it is already used?

I'd suggest looking again at the recolouring scheme/ How about this:

Default Normal lems: Hair colour A and clothes colour X
Default Athlete lems: Hair colour A and clothes colour Y
Default Neutral lems: Hair colour A and clothes colour Z

Alternative Normal lems: Hair colour B and clothes colour X
Alternative Athlete lems: Hair colour B and clothes colour Y
Alternative Neutral lems: Hair colour B and clothes colour Z

This way, it's always clear which lems are Athletes and which are Neutrals by their clothes, and then the hair colour can be changed for alternative-exit lems. These colours could be represented as flags above the exits, as with 2P.

If this seems way too complicated, then maybe it would be best not to do this at all, but to have a look at implementing a straight-up 2-Player mode instead... I think that's really what I'm hoping for, when I actually think about it.

This mode could then have 2 distinct colour sets (e.g. green hair & blue clothes for one player, and pink hair & purple clothes for the other player), which then get swapped for athletes as per the usual routine.

Neutrals and zombies could simply not be featured in 2P mode, which would sort that problem out...
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Strato Incendus on May 16, 2020, 07:56:30 AM
Two different lemming sprites on one level is something I already requested - I referred to it as sprite mixing. I didn't even want to use it for 2-player levels, but simply to have e.g. male and female lemmings on one level (default & Lemminas, fot example). ;) This was already rejected.

Implementing a 2-player mode on top of that seems like way much more effort, so I doubt that's going to happen.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on May 16, 2020, 07:58:35 PM
Quote
If this seems way too complicated, then maybe it would be best not to do this at all, but to have a look at implementing a straight-up 2-Player mode instead... I think that's really what I'm hoping for, when I actually think about it.

Local 2P is not impossible, but I doubt there's enough demand to make that happen. There's also the consideration of how to handle input for two players - I'm not sure if NL would be able to directly use two mice, or if we'd need to put one player on keyboard or joystick input (which would likely put them at a disadvantage).

Networked 2P is not going to happen. I wouldn't know where to even start with implementing that.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on May 17, 2020, 12:35:45 AM
Local 2P is not impossible, but I doubt there's enough demand to make that happen.

If it is possible to have NL be controlled by two mice, I'd definitely put in a vote for local 2P. The ability to make and play levels with friends and family would be ace.

Networked 2P is not going to happen. I wouldn't know where to even start with implementing that.

Didn't Crane mention that he'd look into it? This would obviously be ideal, as we'd be able to play Lemmings with people on the forums.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on June 04, 2020, 04:30:06 AM
As a potential solution to the issue of Only-On-Terrain leading to misleading designs, I'd like to propose an object type "Paint" (perhaps there's a better name for it). This would essentially be a no-effect object that also has the "only on terrain" effect. Then, the only-on-terrain effect itself, would be removed, so it can only be done through these kind of objects.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Apjjm on June 04, 2020, 01:05:11 PM
Here are some ideas i've had that could be interesting with a bit more of the details worked out - I can't say I've put huge amounts of thought into these but they felt interesting enough to share.

Linker/Unlinker
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fuser
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Toggle trap / water area
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Eraser object
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Editor only object
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on June 04, 2020, 07:32:57 PM
Quote
A type of objects that specifies it is only for use by the editor.

These could be used to create objects that show things like builder bridges, basher tunnels, skill assignment markers etc. Perople could create their own objects like this to bring in level plans made externally. The editor could do various things with this set of objects - the player would just need to know to ignore a certain type of object.

Something along these lines is already on my todo list. This would purely be an editor feature (so it wouldn't be "at the cost of losing another object type"). EDIT: And this is now implemented as of editor V1.22.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on June 07, 2020, 10:21:44 PM
Hasn't been much discussion around new ideas for a while, so let's start cutting out some of the ones that have already been presented. I've put the first poll up.

I haven't included paints in this poll, as I feel that it would work best as a replacement for "Only On Terrain", which in turn should be its own discussion rather than just part of a discussion about object types.

(Side note, I've added the Linker and Fuser from Apjjm's post to "willing to consider", and the Eraser to "rejected" - too messy, and too open to abuse. The toggle idea is already on the list in a more-generic form; the specifics of it can be discussed later. I'm not very keen on the Linker, though - it feels like it has a lot of potential to be really finnicky - so I'm not too sure it's going to get very far. The Fuser on the other hand, I definitely see potential in that one.)
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on June 07, 2020, 10:51:02 PM
Thanks for putting the poll up. Is the idea of a permanent-skill-remover still being considered?

Also, what about colour-specific exits? This kind of led to a discussion about a 2-Player mode, but - that aside - are the exits themselves still something that could happen?
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on June 08, 2020, 12:22:26 AM
Permanent skill remover already got put under "strong contenders", so it doesn't need to be in this poll.

And as for the multi-color things, I'm fairly sure I've stated in general that it won't be happening as a whole (and if not - it won't; just the concern of how to handle it visually in a way that's clear and fair rules it out alone, without going into any considerations of how useful it is and/or how messy it would be to implement), and at any rate:

Quote
A few of them fall under the new "catch-many" clause that I honestly can't believe I even need to mention: "Anything that is not an object" is, while perhaps not rejected outright, this topic is not the place to discuss it. This includes things like multiple colors / groups of lemmings, screen wrap, Karoshi, etc.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on October 16, 2020, 11:30:01 PM
Poll results ordered from most to least votes:

1. (9 votes) Portals - An always-active teleporter (similar to how fire is always-active compared to a regular trap).
2. (7 votes) Toggle Buttons - Buttons that turn on / off another object (or a barrier or bridge).
3. (6 votes) No-Assignment Field - An area which prevents skill assignments to any lemming inside it. A lemming already performing a skill while entering would continue to do so; only the *assignment* is blocked.
4. (6 votes) Permanent Skill Applier - An object that adds permanent skills to lemmings.
5. (4 votes) State Changer - An object that turns lemmings into Zombies or Neutrals, or turns such lemmings back into regular ones.
6. (4 votes) Downdraft - A "reverse updraft" that increases fall speed and reduces safe fallable distance.
7. (3 votes) Trampoline - An object which safely breaks a lemming's fall, turning them into a Jumper on impact; and could potentially also have this effect on walkers.
8. (2 votes) Fuser - Combines two lemmings with permanent skills into a single one with the combined skillset.
9. (1 vote) Diagonal One-Way Arrows - Exact properties to be determined, but similar in spirit to existing OWAs.
10. (1 vote) Linker / Unlinker - An object that "entangles" lemmings, making it so that a skill assigned to a linked lemming is applied to all linked lemmings.

I'm going to consider 4 votes the cutoff, and rule out now anything that scored below that. Further discussion of those that got 4+ votes will come later.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on November 19, 2020, 04:46:54 AM
The first post in this topic stated V12.11.X would be the earliest any new object types would be implemented. I have now decided that no new object types will come in 12.11.X, so instead the earliest (and probably exact) version that they'll show up in, if any go ahead, will be 12.13.X.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Strato Incendus on November 21, 2020, 02:27:53 PM
I'm completely fine with that! :thumbsup:

If any of these objects are ever going to be implemented at all, from those still eligible as contenders...

Quote from: namida
Willing to consider
- Portals (teleporters that are constant rather than triggered; ie: a portal is to a teleporter, what a fire object is to a triggered trap)
- Toggle buttons or switches (perhaps with a limited scope on what they can toggle; but this could possibly include terrain - with the catch that any toggleable terrain must be steel)
- No-assignment field
- Permanent skill assigner
- Zombifier / Neutral-ifier (and/or reversals thereof)
- Downdraft
- Paint (specific object type for only-on-terrain effect, to replace that effect in general)

Strong contenders
- Permanent skill remover
- No-effect triggered animations (this one will happen unless there's significant opposition to it)

I'd only really be interested in Portals and Toggle buttons / switches, as both would allow for more Lemmings-Revolution level design.

And maybe permanent skill assigners and removers, which would allow for level design in style of the puzzle game Star Wars: Pit Droids.
Interestingly though, I'd actually care more about permanent skill assigners than removers. Because basically, that would be a halfway reintroduction of instant pickup skills :P , albeit just for permanent (=athletic) skills, not e.g. Builders.

But I can do without any of those, as long as we get to keep all the new four skills! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on November 22, 2020, 02:42:59 AM
I'd only really be interested in Portals and Toggle buttons / switches, as both would allow for more Lemmings-Revolution level design.
---
But I can do without any of those, as long as we get to keep all the new four skills! :thumbsup:

+1 for this, but I'd definitely add Dezombifiers/Deneutralifiers to that.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: mobius on November 27, 2020, 12:48:26 AM
no assignment field, state changer, toggle buttons, linker


no assignment field sounds like it has a lot of potential for backroute fixing, possibly.

State changer; not so sure of but it sounds interesting. Same with Linker; hard for me to imagine the uses/potential of this one but sounds like it could be really cool. Would need to see it in action.

I don't have enough experience with teleporters to have a good input on "Portals".
My gut feeling on this matter is (I've said this I think long ago) is teleporters should function this way and just get rid of the 'single lemmings teleporter' which I never liked much.

IMO; skill remover has more potential than skill assigners. I'm not too interested in those; for reasons of similarity to the pick up skills and basically same reasons I gave for approving of the removal of the 'radiation and slow freeze' objects.

A permanent skill remover on the other hand would do something which can't be done at all otherwise (and never has been to my knowledge).

----------

apologies if this has been discussed but it seems not so I'll mention this for discussion.

disappearing terrain OR timed doors

These seem very different at first but in a way sort of accomplish similar things so one may be better in implementing than the other rather than both. Lemmings Revolution has both so examples can be seen there.

disappearing terrain - for every lemming that walks over; 1 pixel line disappears (permanently); this terrain cannot be destroyed with destructive skills (for obvious reasons). There are aspects of this Revolution didn't explore; like what happens when a climber climbs up disappearing terrain? or just walking into it from the side?

timed doors - has a number and for every lemming that passes that counter goes down. When it reaches zero the 'door' (also indestructible) closes, blocking off future lemmings from passing.

Both of these can serve various but similar functions; of limited one or several lemmings into a specific area of the level or trapping one or several lemmings into a specific area of the level, or creating a hazard (opening up a path to death).
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on November 27, 2020, 12:51:57 AM
Quote
A permanant skill remover on the other hand would do something which can't be done at all otherwise (and never has been to my knowledge).

There was a gimmick at one point that made the permanent skills one-shot; ie: after one transition to the state the skill provides, the lemming would then lose the skill. (You could of course assign it again, if you had any more copies of it.) It was definitely among the ones with higher potential to create good puzzles.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on November 27, 2020, 06:50:35 AM
no assignment field sounds like it has a lot of potential for backroute fixing, possibly.

This is one of the reasons I don't like the idea of this object, to be honest. A perfectly backroute-proof level, to my mind, is just as arbitrary as a trivial "Just (Skill)" level; it might as well be a tutorial level. The first 7 levels of Lemmings are about as backroute-proof as that game gets! ;P

In other words, it's not giving the player any options other than to "paint by the numbers" and follow the exact intentions of the level designer. Levels like these can, on occasion, be quite fun if they happen to reveal a certain trick or if they have one of those "aha!" moments when you realise how to traverse a particular obstacle, but too many of them can just start to feel like you're following instructions rather than playing a game.

I realise that this is more of a mini-rant about backroute fixing than a comment on the object itself, so I'll just add to this that a no-assignment field is likely to be simply treated as another trap to be avoided, albeit one that doesn't kill the lemming.

Sorry for jumping on your comment there, mobius! I think it's just something I felt needed to be said :)
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Proxima on November 27, 2020, 07:13:00 AM
This is one of the reasons I don't like the idea of this object, to be honest. A perfectly backroute-proof level, to my mind, is just as arbitrary as a trivial "Just (Skill)" level; it might as well be a tutorial level. The first 7 levels of Lemmings are about as backroute-proof as that game gets! ;P

In other words, it's not giving the player any options other than to "paint by the numbers" and follow the exact intentions of the level designer. Levels like these can, on occasion, be quite fun if they happen to reveal a certain trick or if they have one of those "aha!" moments when you realise how to traverse a particular obstacle, but too many of them can just start to feel like you're following instructions rather than playing a game.

This is why I think it's important to distinguish the concepts of "backroute" and "unintended solution". There isn't a sharp dividing line, but the way I've expressed it before is that a backroute feels more like bypassing the puzzle rather than engaging with it. If a level has a glaring backroute (and doesn't get updated to fix it) then solvers who spot the backroute first, in most cases, won't bother continuing to search for the intended solution (especially since sometimes there are trick levels where something that looks like a backroute actually is intended) and so they won't get that satisfying "aha" moment and won't get to appreciate the elegance and cleverness of the level's design.

Some great levels have just one possible way to solve them, like "Fall and no life" from Genesis (Manic 20 in Redux). Others can have a variety of solutions and still be excellent levels, like Redux's version of "Let's go camping". (And since the Genesis original of that level was plagued by an extremely obvious backroute, that one is a very clear case where fixing the backroute made it a much better level.)
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Strato Incendus on November 27, 2020, 10:12:53 AM
Quote
There was a gimmick at one point that made the permanent skills one-shot; ie: after one transition to the state the skill provides, the lemming would then lose the skill. (You could of course assign it again, if you had any more copies of it.) It was definitely among the ones with higher potential to create good puzzles.

Indeed; it basically turned Swimmers into Kayakers, Gliders into Icarus Wings, and Climbers into pseudo-Jumpers. ^^ And this type of restriction of only getting past certain obstacles once, instead of "skill assigned once, now that lemming is good for the rest of the level", is precisely one of those limitations that make it easier to build puzzles around. Suddenly, other permanent skills feel similarly broken as the Disarmer, who gets past all traps instead of just past the first trap he encounters. :D
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on December 12, 2020, 12:23:56 AM
As a tradeoff for the decision against Wrap (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2953.msg88430#msg88430), I've bumped Portals up to strong contenders - as indeed, there is good puzzle potential in these features, and Portals can cover most of it.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on December 12, 2020, 02:10:34 AM
As a tradeoff for the decision against Wrap (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2953.msg88430#msg88430), I've bumped Portals up to strong contenders

This definitely seems like a fair trade.

Will portals be able to have very long trigger areas, so that they can simulate wrap?
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on December 12, 2020, 02:35:10 AM
Yes, you could even make a resizable one. Just make sure the visual is very clear on what's going on.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on December 12, 2020, 03:43:26 AM
Yes, you could even make a resizable one. Just make sure the visual is very clear on what's going on.

But how will the trigger area know where to put the lemming?
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on December 12, 2020, 03:58:14 AM
...That's a good point that I didn't think of. Okay, resizable ones might not be such a great idea...
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on December 12, 2020, 04:05:31 AM
When I did those infamous "simulated wrap" levels, I did increase the size of the teleporter's trigger area, but I had to place quite a lot of them in rows and columns along each edge of the screen so that the lem would re-spawn in (more or less) the same position relative to where they entered the teleporter on the opposite edge.

It's not a process I'd want to repeat in a hurry! :forehead: Great fun to experiment with, but highly impractical (and potentially misleading) for general level design purposes.

I'm not sure how trigger areas work, but I'm guessing it would need to be able to "know" the exact XY position of the lemming in order to place it (relatively) correctly on the receiving end.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Dullstar on December 12, 2020, 04:51:45 AM
One possible solution to the trigger area problem would be to allow the resizing, but to require connected portals to be the same size.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Kingshadow3 on December 12, 2020, 11:49:51 AM
This might be a little late and I'm not sure if you're accepting any more ideas but I've got an object idea:

Explosion proof terrain

This is like the One-way arrows but but instead of nullifying Bashing, Mining, Fencing, Digging in a specific direction, this is terrain that cannot be bombed or nuked as Bombers are non-directional and no one-way arrow resists it.

However, you can still Bash, Mine, Dig and Fence through it(and Laser if it is accepted) as right now the only thing that resists bombers is Steel.

This also makes more sense if the Grenadier is accepted into the game as it would prevent a lot of backroute exploits with it.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Strato Incendus on December 12, 2020, 01:50:07 PM
Yes, that would be useful indeed! :thumbsup:

Some people might think of this as a corner case, similar to when I requested diagonal one-way arrows. But indeed, now that it looks like we're going to have two explosive skills, it would be less of a fringe object.

I'm just wondering how this could be established flavour-wise. What can't be bombed but still dug into? Perhaps some mine shaft that would collapse if you were to use dynamite, but controlled digging would keep it stable. I don't know, just one spontaneous idea. ;)
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on February 10, 2021, 12:13:17 AM
After some more thought about the remaining options - giving weight to the experiences around the new skills - I have made some decisions around the contenders at this point. One factor I've taken into account here is to be much firmer on cutting things that don't really show promise - there's little point keeping something around if it's probably going to get cut eventually anyway, just cut it now.

Rejected
Toggle buttons - This is likely to run into similar issues as the Grenader / Spearer did, in that they complicate things too much on the coding side.
Downdraft - There's too much room for this to get fiddly, as well as questions of what exactly it should do.
No-Assignment Field - This would need to cover huge areas and for destructive skills, may need to extend well inside terrain, which would make it difficult to have a fair visual. The physics aren't all that unreasonable but yeah, it's not practical on the visual side.


As far as the rest go:

No-effect animations - Will be implemented. These will be considered "background" in the sense that the "disable backgrounds" option will hide them. (I'm open to having seperate options instead of a combined one here if there's sufficient demand.)
Paint - Purely cosmetic, so won't be subject to any usefulness evaluation. Instead, some further discussion around if / how this can be kept fair (keeping in mind only-on-terrain sees very little abuse) or whether draw-on-terrain should be cut altogether is needed.

This leaves portals and the adders / removes for permanent skills and zombie / neutral states. These will go through a similar discussion / evaluation / refinement procedure as the new skill candidates, with decisions to be made based on how that goes.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Dullstar on February 11, 2021, 06:56:44 AM
I thought we already had no effect animations? I think it is reasonable to have them react to the backgrounds setting (or a separate setting that's not just "play the level in CPM"), although I wouldn't mind them being possible to draw on top of terrain as well (somewhere, I have an example screenshot of a level that uses cloud objects in a fair manner to depict a high-altitude scene, but getting them to show up on the terrain required some inelegant workarounds).
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on May 20, 2021, 07:17:00 PM
After giving some thought to the technical side of things re: objects that turn lemmings into, or back from, neutrals or zombies, I have decided to rule out one such object on technical grounds - the Zombie-to-Normal variant is ruled out. The other three variations (normal to neutral, normal to zombie, neutral to normal) remain on the table.

In short, this is because the ability to revert zombies to normal would require changes beyond just "flip the lemming back to normal" - just to give one example, it would mean gameplay should no longer auto-terminate once only zombies remain. It'd also raise questions of if (and how) zombies should be included in the lemming count on the skill panel, etc. The simplest way around this is to just rule out this variant of the object.

By comparison, normal to zombie can already happen of course, all that would happen here is that this transition can now happen on levels that don't begin with any zombies - this is not hard to make happen, because the code that can trigger this transition is always there, it just never gets used if the level has no zombies. Changes (in either direction) with neutrals don't currently exist, but there aren't really any special considerations that need to be taken into account to make it happen - in all static counts (eg. the "how many lemmings on this level?" count used for calculating postview texts) neutrals are treated the same way as normals anyway, and the dynamic counts already support neutrals, it's just a matter of making sure they get refreshed when a conversion happens. In particular, there are no cases like "gameplay terminates when only neutrals remain" or "neutrals aren't expected to be saveable" etc.

That aside, in light of the decision to keep floaters / gliders able to exit, I'd say there's less need for the Vortex - but that doesn't mean I'm ruling it out (whereas the dezombifier thing is an outright "as the dev I'm saying it's not going to happen", this comment about vortexes is just "this is my current input on them as a user, it's not a decision as a dev").
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Dullstar on May 21, 2021, 12:12:51 AM
My opinion on the vortex is entirely based on the floater/glider case. If we have floaters/gliders allowed to use the normal exit as they are now, I see little value in the vortex, as the only major non-corner case difference I can think of would be fallers.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Simon on May 21, 2021, 04:47:29 AM
Hmm, the value of the vortex diminished after the decision that the normal exit catches floaters and gliders.

To justify the vortex, you must argue that replicating (with normal grounded exit, and updraft to catch fallers, or redesign the fall to be survivable) is not enough. Be it for practicality/physics/visuals/something, e.g., argue that updraft above the exit exit now catch fallers, but pushes the gliders away.

With the many gadgets in NeoLemmix, it's certainly often doable to replicate X with Y. Ease of workaround cannot be the only criterion against X. But opportunity cost rises for X.

Also potential design issue: How clearly is a gadget a vortex and not an exit? The sucking behavior is clear for WillLem's designs. Will every vortex designer be this clear?



The portal has a similar design issue as the vortex. How does a portal look clearly different than a teleporter? E.g., teleporters are always machines and portals are always wormholes/vortexes? Fun will happen when you have exiting vortexes and portal vortexes, you'll really have to put green/blue scenery in the exiting vortex.

Does the portal pull its weight? E.g., can you replicate the portal by redesigning the level to shorten the distance that the portal shall cross, or can you trap the lemmings to be portalled in a pit with a slow-consuming teleporter.

I have a hunch that the portal will pull more weight than I see at first glance. Lemmings needs both fire and triggered traps, both are integral design elements, although that has to be relativized; this direct comparison is too extreme: The trigger area of triggerd traps won't fill a large region unless they look ugly and stacked. You'd use fire/water for this. And you can (replicate more portal using the teleporter) than you can (replicate fire using triggered trap) because the player wants to enter the portal/teleporter eventually, but is on a strict limit of losses for the trap.



I'm still waiting for a smash hit: An idea so good that namida reacts with "oooooh" and where I'm envious because I didn't think of it first.

In Lemmings 1, traps guided the player, but were not central to the puzzle. Since then, triggered traps have become iconic, and most gadgets can fix backroutes. Clearly, gadgets have grown some weight in design. How close does it come to the design weight of the terrain, the main concern in level design?

The core idea of Lemmings is to control the many by modifying terrain by assigning to the few. A gadget that modifies the terrain? Remote-controlled bomb? Extendable automatic bridge? The bomb has the typical design problem that once you have 7 triggers in the map and 7 bombs, it becomes messy to display which switch is which. And the switch must look different from the exit-opening button, nan nan nan.

-- Simon

Or does NeoLemmix have too many gadgets and we should have ourselves a nice culling spree! The final new object culls! Burn baby burn!
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on May 21, 2021, 08:59:43 PM
Quote
The bomb has the typical design problem that once you have 7 triggers in the map and 7 bombs, it becomes messy to display which switch is which. And the switch must look different from the exit-opening button, nan nan nan.

Regarding unlock buttons - all buttons are connected to all exits. You can have multiple buttons, but the player will just have to push them all. You can have multiple exits, but (not including exits that aren't locked at all) they'll all open when all buttons are pressed. This averts the linking issue, and can work for a bomb / detonator pair too - when all detonators are pushed, all bombs explode. At a stretch, perhaps each bomb could require a different number of detonators to be pushed (so perhaps on a level with 3 bombs and 5 detonators, Bomb A is set to explode when 2 detonators are pushed, Bomb B when 3 are pushed, Bomb C when all 5 are - but it's agnostic as to which detonators, only the quantity matters).

Terrain toggle objects have been ruled out on technical grounds. However, objects that are solely terrain removal avert many of the issues that would arise there. This might be feasible...

I wonder if making them able to destroy steel is useful. The level's creator has full control over where the bombs are placed, so it would not diminish the value of steel in backroute prevention / etc, unlike a steel-destroying skill would. However, it may be that simply giving it the same properties as the bomber, and using one-way arrows, would be powerful enough that steel destroying is not necessary.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Simon on May 22, 2021, 08:32:37 AM
Right, now I remember that mobius suggesting the toggling terrain from Lemming Revolution. There, too, it was always steel that appeared or disappeared.

Removing steel would work like remote-controlled doors. It can even be a new type of terrain tile, steel-that-erases-itself-when-all-key-buttons-are-pressed a.k.a. door terrain. Then it can get its own color in CPM and it's obvious down to the pixel what the effect of the detonator will be.

I don't have strong opinions for or against such terrain-changing. On one hand, they support the idea that we steer lemmings with terrain, on the other hand, they violate that we modify terrain by assigning.

Doors and keys are constrictive to the player. To compare: Normal terrain, you can tackle it in any number of ways, and the puzzling fun comes from weighing the advantages of using this skill here over that skill here, or taking different routes altogether. But doors and keys, if you conclude that you need to open the door to solve the level, there is only a single way to do it, get the key. The key blatantly rubs in the face of the player the need to go to a very specific place.

One can even argue that we already have keys to open exits, and doors with keys would be more of the same in a different flavor, like vortex/exit and teleporter/portal.

-- Simon
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Strato Incendus on May 22, 2021, 08:51:48 AM
I just want to bring the idea of explosion-proof terrain (proposed by Kingshadow3) to attention again. As far as I can tell, namida neither listed this under "rejected", nor under those ideas that are still under consideration - so he might just have forgotten about it, but it's still at the top of this page. ;)

Even though the Grenader didn't make, I still think having something that Bombers can't go through but digging skills can, that would be essential to preventing Bomber backroutes.

1) Especially when it comes to thin terrain stripes that are supposed to be removed by Diggers - bombing through them from the side is a common way to bypass those obstacles, and one-way-down arrows don't do anything to stop that.

2) Similarly, one-way up arrows can stop Diggers, but you can still bomb through them if the terrain they're covering is thin enough.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on May 22, 2021, 09:01:53 PM
For technical and visual clarity reasons, if I were to go with that, it'd essentially work as a 5th type of one-way wall. In particular, this means it could not overlap other one-way walls, which would mean that in your examples, #1 would now easily fall to a (any destructive skill that's not a bomber), and #2 would now become vulnerable to diggers again.

This greatly reduces the usefulness of such a feature, but if we do accept this limitation, and find it to still be worthwhile anyway, it's definitely something that's feasible to implement - the trickiest question is actually "what should it look like?"
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on May 22, 2021, 09:35:30 PM
doors with keys would be more of the same in a different flavor, like vortex/exit and teleporter/portal.

Lockable teleporters are a great idea, +1 for this if it's been suggested somewhere. Since buttons already open exits though, what could be used to unlock teleporters?

Even though the Grenader didn't make, I still think having something that Bombers can't go through but digging skills can, that would be essential to preventing Bomber backroutes

-1 for this, especially because Grenaders didn't make the cut. Bombers need to be as powerful as possible in as many situations as possible, since they are sacrificial skills.

And, again with wanting to modify physics/add stuff to NL specifically to prevent backroutes. Grrr! >:(
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on June 24, 2021, 08:10:09 PM
I'm going to rule out the vortex. Given that it was decided to continue allowing Floaters and Gliders to exit, this pretty much means the only difference is when it comes to Fallers. While I'm sure it's possible to construct a scenario where a vortex would be necessary (ie: it wouldn't be possible to create the same effect using only terrain + objects that already exist), the scope of such would be so narrow at this point that it's simply not worth the effort of implementing such an object type, keeping in mind that an animation for lemmings using it would be necessary too (which in turn puts a new animation - and a very obscure one at that - that custom spriteset designers have to account for).
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on June 25, 2021, 01:15:49 AM
Quote from: namida re: Vortex
Given that it was decided to continue allowing Floaters and Gliders to exit

Can Floaters and Gliders still exit? Or rather, is the plan to continue to allow this? I can't remember what the outcome of that discussion was (or where it is...!) :P Just asking for clarification more than anything.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on June 25, 2021, 03:54:32 AM
Quote
an Floaters and Gliders still exit? Or rather, is the plan to continue to allow this?

Yes - the ultimate decision was to simply leave things as-is (with the footnote that, were it a new engine being made from scratch, rather than there being any concern for existing content, Floaters / Gliders would not be allowed to exit).
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: 92Dexter11 on July 15, 2021, 10:25:28 PM
I've had an idea for a while now, but it might be a little too complicated/complex to implement: the Regeneration Field.

Regeneration fields can be placed over the top of terrain, or over air, much like a force field or updraft.
Any modifications made to terrain within a regeneration field revert back to their original state after a short time (around 1 second?).

For instance, you can bash through terrain which is covered by a regeneration field, but the terrain will slowly "regenerate" back to being solid after 1 second.

In regards to the effects of constructive skills, I can think of two possibilities:

1 - Additive mode: Any new terrain introduced into the field becomes a permanent addition to the field. For instance, if a lemming constructs a stacker, then the stack will regenerate its terrain if bashed through.
2 - Revert mode: Any new terrain introduced into the field is removed shortly afterwards, taking the same amount of time as normal terrain takes to reappear. For instance, a if a lemming constructs a builder, then the staircase disappears behind him after 1 second.

One main problem I forsee with this concept is lemmings getting trapped within terrain if they are following behind a basher. Perhaps the field should also automatically kill any trapped lemmings?
Additionally, maybe having terrain revert after 1 second would be too quick. Perhaps 2-3 seconds would allow for more interesting gameplay?
It would also have to have a clear visual indicator to the player without being overly flashy, since it can be placed over terrain or air. Perhaps a twinkling stars effect?

Again, this may be too difficult to implement, or may not fit with neolemmix, but perhaps a simpler idea could be drawn from this? Let me know what you think. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on July 16, 2021, 05:39:31 AM
Not practical. In general - anything that creates terrain (including "restoring existing terrain") should be considered out of the question.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on July 17, 2021, 02:49:53 PM
I like 92Dexter11's idea as an idea, but it does feel a bit like earlier culled gimmicks like Hardworkers, Lazy Workers and Non-permanent Skills, i.e. those which affect the skill itself - in this case, making its effects non-permanent. I'm generally not in favour of such ideas in practice, because they tend to make the game more annoying than anything else.

Having said that, it would create another interesting way to separate a worker, and could even be used for backroute-prevention, so the idea itself is not without its merits.

Of course, it's already been ruled out, but I thought it was worth discussing anyway :lemcat:
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Dullstar on July 24, 2021, 08:17:04 PM
Since the splat/antisplat fields have been rejected, could we by any chance get a splat/antisplat pad graphic that looks halfway decent when it's applied to a whole terrain piece? The current ones that I'm aware of (since so few styles implement them, it's not easy to find them) awkwardly hang off the edge if an entire ledge is covered by the trigger area.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on July 26, 2021, 03:26:25 PM
Since the splat/antisplat fields have been rejected, could we by any chance get a splat/antisplat pad graphic that looks halfway decent when it's applied to a whole terrain piece?

I've been playing around with this for a while now and so far haven't come up with anything I'm really that happy with; it's one of the reasons I suggested the fields in the first place.

FWIW, here's what I have so far. It's a work in progress, I'll likely keep coming back to brainstorm it from time to time.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Dullstar on July 28, 2021, 09:44:32 PM
it's one of the reasons I suggested the fields in the first place.

I'd like to see the fields reconsidered on this basis: with current graphics, there's a reasonable use case for the existing objects (covering the entire surface of a terrain piece) that's completely mechanically fair, yet visually ugly. In fact, it's part of the reason I suggested the Downdraft as well - I couldn't use a splat pad because it would have hung off the edge of the terrain, so instead I just had to make the level taller than would have otherwise been necessary.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on July 31, 2021, 01:04:57 PM
I'd like to see the fields reconsidered on this basis

+1

Fields have always seemed to me a much better way to implement a splattable/non-splattable area of terrain. I think the issue that came up with them was to do with how they overlap with Builder (and similar) bricks that are built into a field area that has already been destroyed.

The topic is still open (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4725.msg80747#msg80747), although it's not filed as a suggestion as yet.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on July 31, 2021, 08:16:59 PM
This is a problem that could be fixed with the existing object types. One example that comes to mind is a graphic similar to the (anti)splat pads in namida_wasteland, but with the pins at a 45 degree inwards angle, so that the pins hang out the side of terrain and the actual (anti)splat area can exactly overlap it. See attached rough sketch.

(Anti)splat fields remain on the rejected list, for all the reasons that they were already there for.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on August 04, 2021, 02:16:18 PM
One example that comes to mind is a graphic similar to the (anti)splat pads in namida_wasteland, but with the pins at a 45 degree inwards angle, so that the pins hang out the side of terrain and the actual (anti)splat area can exactly overlap it. See attached rough sketch.

A good idea, but it doesn't address irregular-shaped terrain and is still too similar to the existing default splat/anti-splat pads.

I'll keep brainstorming this one; there has to be a way to make it work with the existing objects. When my creative block has lifted I'll get on it :lemcat:
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on August 04, 2021, 07:22:09 PM
Quote
A good idea, but it doesn't address irregular-shaped terrain and is still too similar to the existing default splat/anti-splat pads.

For the former, are there that many situations where we need irregularly-shaped (anti)splat zones, rather than being able to create the level in a straight-edged tileset (or use a straight-edged piece, if the tileset is a mixed one)?

For the latter - sorry, but I don't see how this is a problem? Maybe we're not quite on the same page here - I'm thinking in the sense of "create a new (anti)splat pad object, using the existing object type, that has the pins at an angle, this being designed to cover the entire top of a terrain piece" as a solution to "existing graphic can't nicely cover the entire top of a terrain piece".
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on August 05, 2021, 03:48:32 PM
For the former, are there that many situations where we need irregularly-shaped (anti)splat zones, rather than being able to create the level in a straight-edged tileset (or use a straight-edged piece, if the tileset is a mixed one)?

Probably not, to be fair, or the idea may have gained more support/traction when initially suggested.

a solution to "existing graphic can't nicely cover the entire top of a terrain piece".

Your graphic does indeed work for straight-edged pieces, but I interpreted the issue as being "not able to cover the entire top of an irregularly-shaped terrain piece" - mostly due to the word "nicely," which indicates that there is some element of irregularity to the resulting setup.

I do agree that the current object should be more than sufficient for most, if not all, uses. Hence why I keep coming back to consider other ways of depicting it.

And - it can in fact be used as a "field"-type object, with the trigger area covering however much of the terrain is desired. The only issue is its interaction with constructive terrain (i.e. Builders, Stoners, etc) in areas which appear empty, thus creating one of those pesky "unfair use" cases.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on August 05, 2021, 07:35:08 PM
Quote
in areas which appear empty, thus creating one of those pesky "unfair use" cases.

I don't see what's unfair about it, after all, the player will be able to see an (anti)splat pad in that location. If there isn't already terrain there, the only conclusion the player could draw is "I am meant to (or not meant to, in the case of a splatpad) add terrain there". Or, of course, "the level designer wants me to think I should put terrain there but that's just a decoy".

Unless you were talking about using the deprecated AND always advised only to be used with no-effect objects "only on terrain" feature together with the existing splatpads? In which case this is a "don't do that" in general, whether or not it's in empty space.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on August 09, 2021, 04:17:15 AM
I don't see what's unfair about it, after all, the player will be able to see an (anti)splat pad in that location.

I'm pretty sure it was mentioned somewhere that the reason why (anti)-splat pad trigger areas shouldn't be used to create fields covering large areas of terrain is because a Builder might build into what seems like empty space, but in fact contains part of the trigger area.

The trigger area would, then, affect the Builder's bridge. Like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/rb95gVF.png?2)

If (anti)-splat pad triggers could be tweaked so that they don't affect Builder/Platformer/Stacker and Stoner-created terrain, they could be used to cover large areas of irregularly shaped terrain without any potentially unexpected or unexplained behaviour.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: Proxima on August 09, 2021, 04:58:45 AM
That was the reason why using anti-splat pads as "fields" was discouraged, yes.

But that's now a moot point, because the above construction depended on the "Only On Terrain" feature, which is now deprecated (i.e. it is due to be culled, and the only reason for not culling it immediately is to give creators some time to tweak their content so it no longer needs the feature).
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on August 09, 2021, 05:05:43 AM
At any rate, I think there's been more than enough discussion about them at this point. The bottom line is that they are not going to happen - and while discussion about "how can I find another way to implement this idea that needed them" is a fair point of discussion in general, this is not the topic for it at this point.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on August 09, 2021, 08:50:56 PM
I am going to nominate one week from today, as the "closing date" for ideas.

So if you've got any ideas you've been thinking about but haven't quite fleshed out yet, throw them at us now. :)

To be very clear: This is about raising ideas in the first place. Ideas that are already under discussion will continue to be discussed beyond this date.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on August 09, 2021, 08:55:32 PM
Additionally, the permanent skill assigner has been promoted to a strong contender. This doesn't mean it's guaranteed to make the cut (though it does more or less guarantee it'll at least get an experimental).
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: WillLem on August 24, 2021, 12:15:03 PM
I have decided to rule out one such object on technical grounds - the Zombie-to-Normal variant is ruled out

In that case, how about an exit which only admits zombies. Such an exit could also be fatal to non-zombies.

They could simply add to the existing save counter (i.e. no need for an additional "zombie save" counter, IMHO).



With the many gadgets in NeoLemmix, it's certainly often doable to replicate X with Y

But not always aesthetically elegant, and certainly not always without additional issues (backroute possibilities, timing issues, etc).

can you trap the lemmings to be portalled in a pit with a slow-consuming teleporter

No - this would mean that the lemmings would ungroup at the other end. The level design may require the lemmings to remain as grouped as they were upon entering the portal.

Also, time is a factor when having to wait for many lemmings to enter a teleporter.

Personally, I predict that the portal will become much more used than the teleporter for lemming transportation if it does get implemented :lemcat:

I have a hunch that the portal will pull more weight than I see at first glance

Concurred; I predict that the portal will become much more used than the teleporter for lemming transportation if it does get implemented :lemcat:

I'm still waiting for a smash hit: An idea so good that namida reacts with "oooooh" and where I'm envious because I didn't think of it first

Me too, to be honest. It seems that a lot of ideas have already been suggested and tried, so the chances of a smash hit seem less likely as time goes on and the deadline for ideas approaches. I still think moving platforms, trampolenes and any other object which offers more movement potential has "good idea" engrained into it.
Title: Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
Post by: namida on August 24, 2021, 07:18:26 PM
I didn't remember to post at the time, but at this point - the deadline for ideas is well and truly passed. So, no further ideas will be considered at this point - it's now time to turn our attention, to looking in more detail at the existing proposals.