Poll

How should the new skill experimentals be released?

As soon as they're ready
6 (37.5%)
Release them all at the same time
5 (31.3%)
No preference
5 (31.3%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Author Topic: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill  (Read 20744 times)

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Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #105 on: April 08, 2020, 09:27:02 AM »
Shouldn't the Rocketer and Tunneler go together then, because they are also very similar? If the Rocketer is able to remove terrain, what's the difference to the Tunneler?
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Online namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #106 on: April 08, 2020, 10:04:11 AM »
Shouldn't the Rocketer and Tunneler go together then, because they are also very similar? If the Rocketer is able to remove terrain, what's the difference to the Tunneler?

Rocketer removing terrain could go either way. The main thing would be that it sends a lemming upwards, and doesn't need terrain. Tunneller, on the other hand, is specifically a destructive skill - just one with a very steep slope. (That too is another difference - straight up vs slight angle.) I did actually think about combining them when making the poll, but ultimately decided against it.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #107 on: April 08, 2020, 10:07:01 AM »
Okay, if the Tunneler has a slight angle, I'm not so sure about it - it would basically be a steeper Fencer at this point (especially if that 6:1 relationship means that regular Walkers can still ascend through it). I know I'm the one who proposed this, but the fact that a tunnel is only usable for Climbers / doesn't have automatic splat-prevention built-in on the way down - i.e. like a Digger shaft - can indeed make a difference. The tunnels created by both the Laser Blaster and the Rocketer would be identical to that of a Digger, I assume?

Sure, the Tunneler at a steep angle would be generally more useful - but precisely that would make it much less different from the already existing Fencer skill.

I'm definitely voting for the Laser Blaster, but I'm not sure whether I should go with Rocketer vs. Tunneler... ???
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
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Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #108 on: April 08, 2020, 12:56:58 PM »
I think at this stage it doesn't matter. If we end up with an upward destructive skill still being under consideration, then we could still decide on the Rocketer as the implementation of it. Equally, we could still decide on a straight-upward Tunneller rather than a steep-angled one.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #109 on: April 08, 2020, 03:46:04 PM »
Better name for the Creator: The Exploding-Terrain-Maker!

No, that's also terrible...

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #110 on: April 10, 2020, 02:31:44 PM »
Currently it looks like we're back to the "downward Builder vs. upward Digger" discussion! :thumbsup: (If you consider the Laser Blaster a ranged form of an upward Digger.)

Of course, this doesn't mean that the final skill is going to be either of those, but unless more votes come in, it seems to me like a downward Builder and the two alternatives for upward Digging (Laser Blaster and Tunneler) will be the last ones to enter the "under consideration" list. ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Online namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #111 on: April 10, 2020, 07:19:15 PM »
Don't forget that projectiles and Slider are already under "strong contenders".

Anyway, based on poll results so far, the following skills are eliminated from consideration:
- Creator
- Resetter
- Rocketer
- Shielder
- Tank

And since it has the most votes, I'm moving Laser-Blaster to "strong contender". The remainder will stay as "willing to consider" for now.



I've put up a new poll to gauge interest in the general idea of a "zombie killing skill". (Since this idea was very generic compared to the others, I didn't feel it was fair to lump it in with the others in the first poll.)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 07:25:42 PM by namida »

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #112 on: April 10, 2020, 08:21:07 PM »
The problem with the zombie killing skill is the following:

It's a skill that can be useful, if a level has zombies in it.

Only a small fraction of levels are zombie levels and in only a fraction of that it is useful.

That's not enough.

Offline DireKrow

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #113 on: April 10, 2020, 08:55:43 PM »
I echo Icho. It's a niche addition to an already niche feature. I'd be open to it as an extra effect of another skill, but if it kills zombies, it should probably kill all lemmings, and... a skill that kills other lemmings in the vicinity sounds potentially un-fun.
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Online namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #114 on: April 10, 2020, 11:32:56 PM »
The problem with the zombie killing skill is the following:

It's a skill that can be useful, if a level has zombies in it.

Only a small fraction of levels are zombie levels and in only a fraction of that it is useful.

That's not enough.

The possibilities here are:
a) Zombie killing is one of several effects
b) It kills all lemmings, just including zombies
c) Considering whether this might make zombie levels more viable for some creators

Indeed, the laser blaster could work well for either A or B - I could definitely see some puzzle potential coming out of both "use it to kill zombies" and "you must avoid it killing regular lemmings".

Offline GigaLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #115 on: April 11, 2020, 01:56:22 AM »
The problem with the zombie killing skill is the following:

It's a skill that can be useful, if a level has zombies in it.

Only a small fraction of levels are zombie levels and in only a fraction of that it is useful.

That's not enough.

The possibilities here are:
a) Zombie killing is one of several effects
b) It kills all lemmings, just including zombies
c) Considering whether this might make zombie levels more viable for some creators

Indeed, the laser blaster could work well for either A or B - I could definitely see some puzzle potential coming out of both "use it to kill zombies" and "you must avoid it killing regular lemmings".

If the gunner had to double as destructive skill, it can probably serve as a more potent flamethrower, or better, A bazooka with killing power.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #116 on: April 11, 2020, 08:08:50 AM »
It would make sense for any/all of the ranged skills to have this as additional behaviour:

- Laser Blaster: fries the Zombie from below (can even kill Zombie Fallers!), i.e. the Zombie dies in the same animation as if he walked into fire
- Bazooker / Mortar: projectile hits Zombie, or Zombie is in the area of the explosion that creates the crater (explosion star like for a Bomber, then the Zombie is gone)
- Spear Thrower: impales the Zombie, causing him to splat. Passing through the Zombie should affect the spear's further trajectory (like when it flies through a Ballooner's balloon in Lemmings 2)
My packs so far:
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Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #117 on: April 11, 2020, 09:11:20 AM »
Quote
It would make sense for any/all of the ranged skills to have this as additional behaviour:

- Laser Blaster: fries the Zombie from below (can even kill Zombie Fallers!), i.e. the Zombie dies in the same animation as if he walked into fire
- Bazooker / Mortar: projectile hits Zombie, or Zombie is in the area of the explosion that creates the crater (explosion star like for a Bomber, then the Zombie is gone)
- Spear Thrower: impales the Zombie, causing him to splat. Passing through the Zombie should affect the spear's further trajectory (like when it flies through a Ballooner's balloon in Lemmings 2)

1.) If these would kill zombies, they should kill lemmings as well otherwise they would not make much sense. Especially in the laser blasters case this could reduce the use cases.

2.) Then why, for example, doesn't the bomber kill lemmings within an aoe? It just inconsistent and not logical if one can and the other not.

This just feels like a gimmick slapped onto something, creating unlogical special cases.

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #118 on: April 11, 2020, 10:46:20 AM »
For anybody wondering about how some of the skills left for debate can be used in practice, I really really recommend my pack for Lemmings 2, Quest From Kieran 2. I'm not saying this to self-promote, a lot of the groundwork in figuring out whether these skills are any good and the ways you can utilize them has already been done. Now of course, this considers the skills in the context of Lemmings 2, and the particular ways they are implemented in Lemmings 2, but the official level packs do not use any of the skills well at all and only by looking at someone else's attempt to use them in interesting ways do I think you can properly assess how good they are for Neolemmix.

Now if I am allowed to make the bold and self-congratulating claim of calling myself Lemmings 2's top level creator, let me give my thoughts on how well I think these skills will translate themselves in the context of Neolemmix:

  • The Slider - When looking at the extra skills added to Neolemmix, I think two skills stand out above the rest in terms of how well they fit into the original design of Lemmings and all of Neolemmix's other additions: The Platformer, and the Glider. The Glider is particularly flexible in Neolemmix with the addition of the updrafts, it has a lot of utility. Ichotolot argues very successfully in my mind at how Neolemmix can mostly replace what the Slider provides, and I have to agree completely. In Lemmings 2, the Slider is useful and a lot of fun because Lemmings 2 provides a lot of mobility skills that give gigantic amounts of freedom because they let your lemming quite literally fly wherever they want, and the Slider is a breath of fresh air in that it provides restrictions that are heavily dependent on the terrain. But in Neolemmix, the glider is already adequate at providing similar restrictions. So for that reason I'm going to have to vote NO to the Slider in Neolemmix. If you want to have fun with the Slider, I highly recommend having a go at making levels for Lemmings 2 instead.
  • The Laser Blaster - The Laser Blaster is a skill that asks you to specifically hunt down reasons to make it useful. It is very poor at providing general purpose utility. In QFK2 the Circus Tribe tries very very hard to come up with ways to make the Laser Blaster good according to the specific properties it provides, and it actually struggles. Vertical shafts are hard to use in interesting ways, and this is especially true for ones that also have no floor. Yes, there are some specific use cases you can come up with, but they are so specific as to not be worth the addition, so I'm going to have to vote NO on this one.
  • The Spearer / Thrower / Archer / Some Ranged Projectile Constructive Skill - I think you will be disappointed with adding a skill like this to Neolemmix. I found in Lemmings 2 that even with all of the flexibility provided by some skills, that it is tough to use these in a way that isn't just setting up a splatform at a distance. Now Lemmings 2 does have some skills that can combine with these in ways that make them a bit more interesting, most notably the Glue Pourer, another type of ranged construction skill that loves that the Spearer creates a flat 1-pixel width ledge, but the reality is that using these skills to good effect outside of splatforms can be fairly contrived. Like the Laser Blaster, it feels like a skill where you're trying hard to find reasons to make it useful. And it also tries to encourage you to make setups where you have to attach rocks / spears / arrows onto other rocks / spears / arrows and let me tell you, the execution on this is horrible and not fun at all. The fact that these skills let you setup a reason to get one lemming to another area so that it can manipulate the crowd's path from a distance is nice to have from a design perspective, admittedly. My vote on this skill is Meh, we can do better.
  • The Bazooka / Mortar / Some Ranged Projectile Destructive Skill - These skills immediately throw a design problem at you, how do you stop them from being used at point-blank where it's just replicating a bomber? In Lemmings 2, nearby lemmings get thrown around, and I utilised this in some of my levels for a number of reasons, including as a trap (they get turned around or flung into water) so that you are forced to use them from a distance. Of course it also allows setups to use it point blank range, like that official Lemmings 2 beach level where you bazooka through a sandcastle at point-blank and it's super annoying and tedious, but the official levels are not a good place to look for examples. Flinging of course is not going to happen in Neolemmix, and I don't recommend adding flinging physics. This skill also covers the nice design use of manipulating the crowd's path from a distance. I think a destructive distance skill is actually more useful than a constructive one, it's easier to think up more general purpose use cases, especially if it follows an arc more like the Mortar than the Bazooka, so that ceilings and floors can be destroyed more easily. In Lemmings 2, I found that the Mortar was quite a fun skill to use in my opinion, as long as you are not just trying to blast through a wall point-blank. Creating holes in all sorts of places turned out to have a range of ways you could take advantage of that. But you need to fix the point-blank problem. I recommend the following: a Neolemmix Mortar will be deadly, with the explosion also having a kill zone that extends beyond the terrain destruction, so a lemming trying to use it to blast through a wall at point-blank gets killed. This makes it possible to disallow that use case if you wish through save requirements. Also it adds some use restrictions via caring about where other lemmings are and not wanting to fire it into a crowd, which in and of itself can add extra puzzle potential, generally any skill being able to be affected by the presence of other lemmings is a good property for a skill to have to make it more interesting. I guess you can use it to kill zombies too if you care about that (I think in practice that is not so useful, but hey, you get that as an added bonus here). It also covers some of the use cases that the Laser Blaster would, while providing additional flexibility by being way more general purpose. So if it wasn't already obvious, my vote goes here, provided you solve the point-blank problem, and I think making it deadly is the best way to do this.

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #119 on: April 11, 2020, 11:26:25 AM »
Well, it looks like the most votes are going to "okay as a side effect", with second place being "I don't mind the idea but I think there's better usages".

So - let's not specifically worry about zombie killing, but if a skill gets selected that could logically have that as an effect... well, perhaps it does. I'm guessing most cases would simply be "kills all lemmings within range", though.