Poll

If you could pick one of these...

Laser-Blaster (angled)
6 (35.3%)
Two new skills: Projectile constructive, projectile destructive (with same arc)
4 (23.5%)
Slider (either temporary or permanent)
6 (35.3%)
Jetboarder
1 (5.9%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Author Topic: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill  (Read 11159 times)

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Offline namida

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[DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« on: March 12, 2020, 09:29:42 am »
Okay, so, let's have an official topic for discussion of what the final new skill might be - as I have said I'd like to add one more to bring the total to a nice 20.

I'll keep a list in this first post of anything I've (a) ruled out, (b) stated could be considered, or (c) seems to be a strong contender.

The earliest this skill will be added will be V12.11.0. It might be later.

Past topics that might be of interest here (note that this does not mean I'm actively supporting any suggestions within; just mentioning them as potentially of interest - some of these have outright been rejected already):
- It's time to work towards a "final" version.
- Joke ideas for skills and objects (Most of these won't be suitable, but some at least could be made into serious ideas)
- Downward construction vs upwards destruction
- General suggestion thread
- Add L2 skills to NeoLemmix?
- Upward Digging: Relevance, Required Effort, and Alternatives
- Ideas for skills
- New skill: Farter
- Superstacker / Lightsaberer proposal
- Hookshotter proposal
- Shielder proposal
- "Remove permanent skills" skill proposal

Ruled out
- Anything involving changing the direction of gravity - too complicated to implement
- Anything that requires further input beyond "select the skill, select a lemming" - again, too complicated to implement
- Anything that has widespread effects on other skills used by the lemming (but "has one or two edge cases" or "has a special interaction with one or two other skills" is okay), including changing the speed of all actions in general
- Anything that includes, either as the primary effect or a secondary effect, killing lemmings other than the user (zombies or otherwise)
- Anything involving random or highly-chaotic factors (come on, I shouldn't have even needed to state this!)
- Skills that are identical to existing ones, except in terms of whether or not they're fatal to the lemming
- Reviving the Ghost feature as a skill - too complicated to implement, and ghosts proved to be not particularly useful in practice
- All L2 skills not listed below
- Skateboarder (see reply #2)
- Permanent-skill-remover skill - only ruled out as a skill, I'm still open to this as an object but that's a discussion for another time
- Rock Climber
- Runner
- Girderer (see reply #32)
- Sleeper (see reply #80)
- Creator (see reply #96)
- Resetter, or some reasonable variation thereof (see reply #80)
- Rocketer (see this topic) or some variation thereof
- Shielder
- Tank (zombieproof / trapproof / fireproof, but not waterproof, lemming)
- Tracer (see reply #149)
- Downward builder
- Hookshooter
- Jetboarder (see https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4775.0)

Borderline
(None currently)

Strong contenders
- Laser-Blaster or Tunneller (Dedicated topic: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4768.0)
- Projectile constructive skill (such as Spear-Thrower) (Dedicated topic: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4754.0)
- Projectile destructive skill (such as Bazooka or Mortar) (Dedicated topic: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4770.0)
- Slider (Dedicated topic: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4713.0)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 08:10:34 pm by namida »

Offline NieSch

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2020, 10:36:38 am »
Turbo lemming? Walker becomes runner. Most other skills will be performed two times as fast.
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Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2020, 12:15:53 pm »
Quote
Turbo lemming? Walker becomes runner. Most other skills will be performed two times as fast.

We've had previous discussions about the Runner and ended up rejecting its introduction, mainly because it only lends itself well to a) obnoxious timing-based solutions (i.e. that involve a lot of execution difficulty), or b) is only useful in combination with Jumpers (which we're going to have soon now, but again, the existence of a skill isn't really justified if it's only useful in combination with another skill).

However, in the Joke-Skills thread that namida thankfully linked to above :thumbsup: , one of the more serious suggestions I made was the Skateboarder. This is essentially a more versatile version of the Runner that provides a little more versatility than just a quickly-moving Walker. For the sake of simplicity, I just quote that part of my post below:

Quote
The Skateboarder. This one is inspired by Speedy Eggbert (the game which Jaimie's Techno and House tileset are taken from): The lemming gets on top of a skateboard, putting him at a slightly higher position than regular Walkers, as well as moving slightly faster. He can thus get over trigger areas of traps (or buttons you don't want to push yet, teleporters or splitters you want to avoid, etc.) that regular Walkers would walk into. In contrast to the Shimmier, he doesn't require a ceiling above his head to do this, plus he can be assigned more skills (Shimmiers can only be assigned the same skills as Fallers or Swimmers). For example, he could start bashing or fencing while still standing on his skateboard, creating a tunnel only he can reach (if the skateboard places him higher than 6 pixels above the ground; otherwise, he could get over traps and still create a tunnel accessible to regular Walkers). Admittedly, this might be difficult, because the assignment of the Basher or Fencer would stop him from being a Skateborder, therefore falling down.

What would definitely work though would be assigning a Builder or Platformer to a Skateborder, since those skills don't actually require terrain beneath the lemming's feet. He could thus start building or platforming in what would be mid-air for all the other lemmings, which can be a great way to isolate him from the crowd! :thumbsup:
Also, most prominently, you could assign a Jumper to a Skateboarder, who would consequently jump a little further than regular Jumpers.
In contrast to Speedy Eggbert, the Skateboarder would only bypass traps by not even hitting them in the first place; if Speedy Eggbert hits a (one-use) trap in his game, those get destroyed instead, while Eggbert remains on the skateboard and survives.

All in all, this skill would have all the properties of the Runner (increased moving speed + wider jumps), while still offering some additional applications.
So if anyone ever seriously contemplates adding the Runner to NeoLemmix, maybe consider the Skateboarder first...

Now let's go through the L2 skills namida is considering:

Quote
I'm willing to consider the following L2 skills, and no others:
- Laser-Blaster
- Sand Pourer - with the caveat that it doesn't consider existing terrain, and is essentially a just constructive skill that makes a small pyramid
- Bazooka / Mortar
- Slider - either as a permanent or non-permanent skill

The kid in me would obviously prefer the Laser Blaster. :thumbsup: Also the part in me who keeps going on and on about upward Digging.

The Slider however might be appealing to the more advanced players, because the question of how often a lemming turns around or can be turned around - even though it seems rather inocuous - is often crucial to many of the higher-rank puzzles of the most difficult custom packs we have.

The idea of making the Slider non-permanent would also introduce the option of having a non-permanent Floater/Glider type skill, kind of like Kayakers were non-permanent Swimmers in L2. Note that the Slider is a permanent skill in L2 though. So if it's implemented in its original L2 form, as another athletic skill, I'm not sure how much new design space that would create, even though I can see challenging puzzles arise from it. It's just that this type of challenge - how to turn a lemming around or prevent it from turning around - isn't a new one in and of itself, it's a very familiar concept.

Bazooka / Mortar would introduce the object of affecting terrain at a distance (aside from the Laser Blaster). Since those are only Bomber-size dents, however, I don't consider them particularly useful. Even without the annoying knockback effect from L2 (due to NeoLemmix having no tumbler physics), I wouldn't look forward to these quite as much.

The Sand Pourer honestly seems like the least useful of all the Pourer skills (admittedly, the Glue Pourer can be quite broken, and the Filler quite limited). It would be similarly limited in its use as the NeoLemmix Stacker, just slightly more comparable to the Builder, due to creating a walkable slope.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2020, 01:39:00 pm »
My thoughts on some of the possibilities that have been proposed so far. I'll go roughly in order, with ones I like most at the top.

Slider - I remember from QFK2 that the Slider had some interesting puzzle potential from the fact that it is forced to turn around when falling. That wouldn't apply if we made it non-permanent; on the other hand, a non-permanent Slider would give a way to get a single lemming down from a height without giving them a permanent skill. WillLem's jumper-into-slider idea also gives the skill a bit more traction. On the negative side: we already have two skills focused on getting down from a height; do we need a third?

Bazooker / Mortar - Not familiar with L2 so I'm not clear on the difference between these two, but I understand we're talking about skills that fire an explosive projectile. This would allow affecting terrain from a distance, which no current skill can do. The explosion could also kill zombies, to give it an additional utility (although that is a bit inconsistent, since the Bomber's explosion doesn't affect zombies; but a different animation could clue the player in to this difference). Strato mentioned that the Laser Blaster can make a dent in a ceiling, allowing the player to choose where a Shimmier will terminate; this would apply to a projectile skill as well (so long as the projectile is not fired horizontally -- and even then, it could affect where a Shimmier stops on sloped terrain).

Tunneller (upward digger) - I like an upward digger that moves into his own tunnel a bit more than the L2 Laser Blaster, since it creates possibilities for using this skill in the middle of the solution, to get a worker lemming where he needs to be, rather than just releasing the crowd at the end. (A Laser Blaster could climb his own tunnel after blasting it, but he would have to be a climber; like Strato, I feel a bit negative about skills that lean too heavily on other skills in this way.) Another possibility is a tunneller with a steep upward direction (e.g. 4:1) so that the crowd could walk up the tunnel; while that has clear utility, I'm worried it would end up lowering puzzle potential by making things a bit too easy.

Runner - I disagree with Strato in that I don't feel the community has ever decisively rejected this. I will look back at previous discussions to see what was said. The runner has been trialled in Lix, and is surely the least worthy of the Lix skillset. However, making the runner perform all actions twice as fast could make the skill a lot more interesting. I don't think we should ignore this before we've given it some real consideration.

Laser Blaster - I have misgivings about this skill because of the way L2 used it for releasing the crowd at the end, and nothing else. However, we shouldn't jump too quickly to the conclusion that it has no other utility. Strato has pointed out an interesting interaction with Shimmiers. Placing a laser correctly to alter the path of neutrals/zombies could also be an interesting puzzle space.

Sand Pourer - The proposal that the sand pourer should ignore existing terrain actually makes it less of a sand pourer and more similar to another L2 skill, the Planter, but making a simple pyramid of terrain instead of the awkwardly shaped plant. I can certainly see uses for this, but it doesn't feel groundbreaking when we already have a good range of constructive skills.

Downward builder - I like this even less because it's just yet another builder/platformer with a different direction.

Permanent-skill-remover - This works much better as an object.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2020, 02:55:36 pm »
Quote
Strato mentioned that the Laser Blaster can make a dent in a ceiling, allowing the player to choose where a Shimmier will terminate; this would apply to a projectile skill as well (so long as the projectile is not fired horizontally -- and even then, it could affect where a Shimmier stops on sloped terrain).

That would be the Mortar then. The Bazooker, at least to my knowledge, always shoots horizontally. The Mortar is one of my most hated skills in L2, though, because its trajectory is parabolic, i.e. hard to aim. There is one level in particular in the Beach tribe where you have to use several Bazookers first to get through a sand castle, then use several Mortars to shoot over a water pond and make a hole in the ground. It's one of the most obnoxious ones from L2. I would advise you to try that level first, since you said you aren't familiar with L2, before advocating for the Mortar or Bazooker. ;) Even though NeoLemmix would make these skills a little more tolerable thanks to rewinding and framestepping, we probably don't want to introduce a skill that more often than not has to actively rely on those features.

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Runner - I disagree with Strato in that I don't feel the community has ever decisively rejected this.

By "rejected" I mean that it was originally supposed to be introduced together with or around the same time as the Jumper - and as you can see, all that talk has disappeared for "just introducing the Jumper" instead. Another case of something that was never stated explicitly, but "acted out".

You are right that there has never been a poll on this. But it seems to me that the idea of the Runner being worthwhile in NeoLemmix was discarded so early, through the arguments championed in the posts of that thread, that the Runner never even made his way into a poll in the first place.

Quote
Laser Blaster - I have misgivings about this skill because of the way L2 used it for releasing the crowd at the end, and nothing else. However, we shouldn't jump too quickly to the conclusion that it has no other utility. Strato has pointed out an interesting interaction with Shimmiers. Placing a laser correctly to alter the path of neutrals/zombies could also be an interesting puzzle space.

Interesting point, I hadn't thought of that! :thumbsup: Since Neutral lemmings don't exist in L2, this has never come up so far. But a "boring pioneer / worker lemming" might indeed become somewhat less obvious when he has to free a crowd that, in contrast to a crowd of regular lemmings, couldn't simply help themselves towards the exit.
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Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2020, 03:13:26 pm »
Turbo lemming? Walker becomes runner. Most other skills will be performed two times as fast.

This is a good idea. :thumbsup:

the Runner... is only useful in combination with Jumpers (...the existence of a skill isn't really justified if it's only useful in combination with another skill).

Fair point, but I think that NeiSch's idea of a Turbo lemming would be more like SuperLemming from ONML, in that it would no doubt become a permanent skill (or maybe even cancellable by a Walker) and all skills performed by the Lemming from that point on would be done at double-speed. As a proponent of action/execution-based gameplay, I'm highly in favour of this.

one of the more serious suggestions I made was the Skateboarder. This is essentially a more versatile version of the Runner that provides a little more versatility than just a quickly-moving Walker.

This is also a good idea, if somewhat complicated - I like it in principle though. From your description, I understand that it acts as a Lemming-raiser whilst also separating them from the crowd and providing extra speed and longer jumps: definitely a lot of benefits if this could be made to work.

The Slider however might be appealing to the more advanced players

This is one of my favourite ideas, and I still think it's how a Jumper should interact with a wall, but I think we've moved on from that now. So... I'd suggest having the Slider as a non-permanent skill but one that can be used in combination with a Jumper: i.e., if assigned mid-jump, the Jumper lem would transition to a slider upon contact with the wall, thus opening up all of the various possibilities such as non-permanent no-Splat, ability to climb form this state, ability to perform wall jump from this state, etc. Loads of great potential for both puzzles and action-based gameplay.

a non-permanent Slider would give a way to get a single lemming down from a height without giving them a permanent skill. WillLem's jumper-into-slider idea also gives the skill a bit more traction. On the negative side: we already have two skills focused on getting down from a height; do we need a third?

I would suggest that if the Slider were to be non-permanent as well as being useful in combination with other skills (transition to/from Climber/Jumper), this would separate it enough from the Floater and the Glider.

Permanent-skill-remover - This works much better as an object.

Agreed! This is a brilliant idea. Happy to brainstorm some graphics if everyone's up for this. :thumbsup:
We could also have an object that rescues Lems from the zombie state (it could even be the same object - essentially, reset any Lem that walks through this).

I think upward diggers and downward builders would be somewhat underwhelming ideas for the 20th skill, useful though they may be. It would be nice to see something totally different. Projectile skills could be useful replacements for bombers and ways to kill zombies, so I'd probably put this higher in the list.

To summarise, my list in order of preference would be:

Lemming Re-setter Object (could do with a better name, obvs!) - cancels permanent skills and zombie state.

Slider - non permanent, able to transition to/from Jumper/Climber, possibly even a Glider that meets a wall.
Turbo Lemming - I really like this idea! The skill could apply until cancelled by a Walker, and affect all other skills assigned during its application (including Cloners - imagine that!)
Lightsaberer - I still think this would be great as a non-fatal bomber skill (and could also be used to kill zombies)! Due to its limited range of application beyond this though, I can see why it wouldn't be top of people's lists. Worth a mention though so thanks for the link, Namida.
Skateboarder - A good idea. It needs unpacking a bit, but it could work.
Bazooker - Good alternative to a bomber (for destroying horizontal terrain, at least) and useful for killing zombies.
All other skills mentioned above - I'm fairly indifferent towards most of the other mentions. There aren't any I'm particularly against, though.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2020, 03:31:42 pm »
Quote
Fair point, but I think that NeiSch's idea of a Turbo lemming would be more like SuperLemming from ONML, in that it would no doubt become a permanent skill (or maybe even cancellable by a Walker) and all skills performed by the Lemming from that point on would be done at double-speed.

The thing with SuperLemming from ONML is that it only features a single lemming - and actually, the entire game speed is increased. ;) So it's just like pressing down the fast-forward key. And the SuperLemming gimmick in NeoLemmix 1.43 (e.g. on the Hasty rank of Lemmicks) does precisely that.

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As a proponent of action/execution-based gameplay, I'm highly in favour of this.

I think now you've just made the majority of other forum users more likely to reject that proposal... :P

Quote
This is also a good idea, if somewhat complicated - I like it in principle though. From your description, I understand that it acts as a Lemming-raiser whilst also separating them from the crowd and providing extra speed and longer jumps: definitely a lot of benefits if this could be made to work.

Indeed, the vertical separation from the crowd through higher altitude as well as the ability to ignore traps, without straight-up disabling them for everyone (which is what often makes the Disarmer overpowered in my book), would be the Skaterboarder's main standout features. While these two things are partly shared with the Shimmier, the Skateboarder would be completely independent of whether there's a ceiling or not...

...while still having that interaction with the Jumper (=larger jumps), as well as all the speed-based execution stuff that you said you care about. ;) And yes, obviously you could also clone a Skateboarder.

In short: It would do everything the Runner does, and then some!

Only the faster execution of all skills (like the SuperLemming does) would not be included in the Skateboarder, but this isn't part of traditional Runner behaviour either. ;) It doesn't really make sense to assume that a lemming should become faster at e.g. bashing just because he happens to stand on a skateboard, or wear running shoes... :D

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Lightsaberer - I still think this would be great as a non-fatal bomber skill (and could also be used to kill zombies)! Due to its limited range of application beyond this though, I can see why it wouldn't be top of people's lists. Worth a mention though so thanks for the link, Namida.

Bazooker and Mortar would also be non-lethal Bombers (because the crater they create has the same shape), while adding the additional novelty of working at a distance. This gives them more "incremental validity" compared to your suggestion, I'd say. ;)

Quote
This is one of my favourite ideas, and I still think it's how a Jumper should interact with a wall, but I think we've moved on from that now. So... I'd suggest having the Slider as a non-permanent skill but one that can be used in combination with a Jumper: i.e., if assigned mid-jump, the Jumper lem would transition to a slider upon contact with the wall, thus opening up all of the various possibilities such as non-permanent no-Splat, ability to climb form this state, ability to perform wall jump from this state, etc. Loads of great potential for both puzzles and action-based gameplay.

This is definitely the best argument in favour of the Slider as a sovereign skill that I've heard so far! :thumbsup: I've always thought of the Slider as "just another Floater surrogate".
But maybe we should start to think of it more as a downward Climber. The Glider can technically be an upward Floater, after all, when combined with updrafts.

Corner cases for this logic:

a) A Jumper jumps over a gap and reaches the top of a wall on his downward move. Because he's on the downward path of his curved trajectory, he can get below the ceiling at the top of that wall without bumping his head. Now you make him a Slider as he holds on to the wall.

Now that he's right below the ceiling, would it be possible to assign a Shimmier, i.e. transition from Slider to Shimmier, before the lemming starts sliding further down? ;)

The ceiling would probably have to be a very short platform for this, otherwise the Jumper would bump his head, or simply land on top of it. With such a short ceiling, I don't necessarily know why you would want him to shimmy here, but anyways: Would it be possible?

b) A Slider is sliding down a wall. Now a second lemming, either a Platformer or a Builder, closes the gap above the Slider's head right after he's passed by. Like "The Great Lemming Caper" in reverse.

Again: Can you assign a Shimmier to a Slider?

I think on a purely technical level, both should be possible - even if scenario in a level where it is actually applicable would be pretty hard to design and pixel-precise to execute. ;)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2020, 03:37:29 pm by Strato Incendus »
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Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2020, 06:45:27 pm »
Quote
Even though NeoLemmix would make these skills a little more tolerable thanks to rewinding and framestepping, we probably don't want to introduce a skill that more often than not has to actively rely on those features.

Skill shadows, too. That would be a huge factor in making these skills more tolerable than they were in L2.

I grouped the Bazooka and the Mortar together in the original post because they're basically the same thing except for the angle. I'm pretty open on what angle any NL implementation of such a skill might have, including the possibility that it doesn't match either skill's angle from L2. I'm also open to the idea of it firing multiple shots, which might make it a bit more useful than it is with just a single bomber radius.

One thing I will rule out though is any kind of "assign the skill, then select the angle" (as per "anything requiring additional input beyond select skill, select lemming" being ruled out). The angle - be it a striaght line or a parabolic trajectory - will be fixed.

I'll go through the topic again later to determine any "ruled out" or "particularly of interest" proposals.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2020, 06:54:48 pm by namida »

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2020, 07:41:59 pm »
By "rejected" I mean that it [the runner] was originally supposed to be introduced together with or around the same time as the Jumper - and as you can see, all that talk has disappeared for "just introducing the Jumper" instead. Another case of something that was never stated explicitly, but "acted out".

That's not quite right. In Nepster's 2017 poll that led to the acceptance of shimmier and jumper as "coming eventually", the runner received no votes, so it was never "supposed to be introduced". Of course, the lack of votes does indicate that the community was not very interested in it. But I still wouldn't take that as outright rejection -- firstly, we were limited to three votes, so anyone who liked the runner, but liked the shimmier and jumper more would have voted for them instead. Secondly, since a lot of features from that poll are in NL now, the poll doesn't give much indication of which features the community would now prefer to implement next.

I had a look back through old topics to see what had been said about the runner before the poll. There were probably other parts to the discussion, but the ones I found were:

"Fencer" skill? (July 2016) -- First proposal of adding more skills beyond the original 16. As well as the fencer itself, some other possibilities were brought up, including runner, jumper and shimmier.
Add L2 skills to NeoLemmix? (May 2017) -- mobius raises several possibilities and favours the jumper and runner. Nepster points out (and IchoTolot agrees) that the runner hasn't felt that useful in Lix.

Offline GigaLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2020, 12:00:30 am »
Here are my stances on a few of them

Blaster/Upwards Digger - This is something I wouldn't mind, I would definitely use this be useful in someways, we have Horizontal, both Diagonals, and straight down. Why not go for straight up?

Downward Construction -  A downwards builder is something I won't lose sleep over but would be fine if it was implemented

Runner - This could be an interesting permanent skill as it allows distance from the lemmings and it brings the SUPERLEMMING gimmick back as a skill, If this were the last skill implemented, I'd be happy with it.

Sheilder - This one is the most interesting considering that it can be both destructive and protective. Like immunity to zombies from one side is pretty cool


Sand Pourer - Not a fan of this one, I wouldn't see much use for this one as its range is too short and situational

Slider - This one sounds cool but I'm perfectly fine with the Floater and Glider we have

As for my suggestion
Gunner/a skill for killing zombies - Where ever direction they're walking is where they aim, one click and they'll take out a zombie, however the range is rather short. Though I understand if it wouldn't sound as useful as I thought

Those are my thoughts towards most of the options seen here, as for one more thing

Permanent Skill Remover - This is better off as an object like Proxima set and something I was gonna bring my old SlowFreeze and Radiations back as. A converter/remover object is something I wanted to toy with. This just wouldn't work as a skill.

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2020, 03:57:25 am »
Okay, here's what I'm ruling out so far:

Sand-Pourer - It seems there isn't much interest in this one, so let's stop talking about it.

Skateboarder - I definitely see why it's a fun idea, but it's going to have too many edge cases to deal with.

Permanent skill remover - It seems there's a strong consensus this would work better as an object type - while I'm not discussing new object types right now, in general I'm open to adding a couple more so keep a note of this for future discussion.



The only other one I want to specifically comment on at this stage:

Zombie killing skill - I don't know that this would be particularly popular, especially given that zombie levels remain relatively rare. However, I'm not outright rejecting this idea, especially if there's a proposal that kills zombies, has useful effects in non-zombie levels, and both of these are logical effects of the skill. Or, if the only effect is zombie-killing, then if I'm convinced enough that it'll increase the popularity of zombie levels by implementing it, that could work too. One possibility: Perhaps a skill that provides some useful effect, but also kills all lemmings (zombies included, but not exclusively) in its path. This would have interesting use cases in normal levels, while remaining an extremely useful tool for zombie levels too. (These are all just vague thoughts at this stage, though.)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2020, 01:40:56 pm »
I know I brought up Zombie killing in the joke ideas for skills thread, but that was precisely the point of the joke - Zombie levels are rare, as you said, so a skill like the Gunner / Gunman / Sniper etc. that does nothing but killing Zombies would be even more limited in its application than the Disarmer we have now.

The only skills mentioned in this thread that I could see being both useful for the destruction of terrain AND Zombies would be the Laser Blaster and the Bazooker / Mortar. Namely because all of them destroy at a distance, which is kind of crucial if a lemming wants to survive the encounter with a Zombie. For example, even if one were to introduce the option that Miners could kill Zombies by hitting them with their pick, the Miner would still be touched by the Zombie and therefore infected himself.

If the Laser Blaster or Bazooker / Mortar would also kill regular Lemmings or even Neutrals, however, this would be a severe drawback that would probably also make people less likely to use this skill for regular terrain destruction.

So if these terrain-destructive skills are also Zombie-destructive, the killing behaviour should remain restricted to Zombies. ;)
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Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2020, 04:28:30 pm »
Quote
I think that NeiSch's idea of a Turbo lemming would be more like SuperLemming from ONML, in that it would no doubt become a permanent skill (or maybe even cancellable by a Walker) and all skills performed by the Lemming from that point on would be done at double-speed.

The thing with SuperLemming from ONML is that it only features a single lemming - and actually, the entire game speed is increased. ;) So it's just like pressing down the fast-forward key. And the SuperLemming gimmick in NeoLemmix 1.43 (e.g. on the Hasty rank of Lemmicks) does precisely that.

It's my understanding that a Turbo-Lemming skill would only apply to a single Lemming within the level, making it different from the SuperLemming gimmick.

It would also be different from a Runner because it would increase the speed of everything the Lemming does, once applied.

On that basis, Turbo-Lemming would be useful for:

- Separating a Lemming from a crowd by making them go faster.
- Increasing the speed of any skill performed by that Lemming thereafter (until a Walker is assigned to the Lemming, at which point I'd suggest that the Turbo skill could be cancelled).
- Getting stragglers to the exit quicker (great for time-based solutions!).
- If pre-assigned in a level with no Walkers available, it would be a fun way to bring back the SUPERLEMMING gimmick.

Of the remaining skills being considered, then, I'm most strongly in favour of Slider and Turbo-Lemming (slightly leaning more towards Turbo-Lemming, the more I think about it...)

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2020, 06:58:03 pm »
The topic of new skills has been on my mind for some time recently, and I would like to present a few ideas and thoughts of my own:

Most of these skills are taken directly from Lemmings 2 or other games, with only minor tweaks. If you are familiar with such skills, then you can pretty much guess at what they do.
I've organised them into spoiler tags so as to prevent an overly long post.

The Ballooner
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Archer
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Rock Climber
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Kayaker
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Flamer (name pending)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Rusher
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So what do you think? I'd love to hear feedback/criticisms/improvements that anybody has.

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2020, 07:00:55 pm »
I already covered the subject of L2 skills in the first post:

Quote
I'm willing to consider the following L2 skills, and no others:
- Laser-Blaster
- Bazooka / Mortar
- Slider - either as a permanent or non-permanent skill

(Sand pourer was also on this list, but was removed due to a fairly strong consensus so far that it wasn't a good choice.)