Turbo lemming? Walker becomes runner. Most other skills will be performed two times as fast.
The Skateboarder. This one is inspired by Speedy Eggbert (the game which Jaimie's Techno and House tileset are taken from): The lemming gets on top of a skateboard, putting him at a slightly higher position than regular Walkers, as well as moving slightly faster. He can thus get over trigger areas of traps (or buttons you don't want to push yet, teleporters or splitters you want to avoid, etc.) that regular Walkers would walk into. In contrast to the Shimmier, he doesn't require a ceiling above his head to do this, plus he can be assigned more skills (Shimmiers can only be assigned the same skills as Fallers or Swimmers). For example, he could start bashing or fencing while still standing on his skateboard, creating a tunnel only he can reach (if the skateboard places him higher than 6 pixels above the ground; otherwise, he could get over traps and still create a tunnel accessible to regular Walkers). Admittedly, this might be difficult, because the assignment of the Basher or Fencer would stop him from being a Skateborder, therefore falling down.
What would definitely work though would be assigning a Builder or Platformer to a Skateborder, since those skills don't actually require terrain beneath the lemming's feet. He could thus start building or platforming in what would be mid-air for all the other lemmings, which can be a great way to isolate him from the crowd! :thumbsup:
Also, most prominently, you could assign a Jumper to a Skateboarder, who would consequently jump a little further than regular Jumpers.
In contrast to Speedy Eggbert, the Skateboarder would only bypass traps by not even hitting them in the first place; if Speedy Eggbert hits a (one-use) trap in his game, those get destroyed instead, while Eggbert remains on the skateboard and survives.
All in all, this skill would have all the properties of the Runner (increased moving speed + wider jumps), while still offering some additional applications.
So if anyone ever seriously contemplates adding the Runner to NeoLemmix, maybe consider the Skateboarder first...
I'm willing to consider the following L2 skills, and no others:
- Laser-Blaster
- Sand Pourer - with the caveat that it doesn't consider existing terrain, and is essentially a just constructive skill that makes a small pyramid
- Bazooka / Mortar
- Slider - either as a permanent or non-permanent skill
Strato mentioned that the Laser Blaster can make a dent in a ceiling, allowing the player to choose where a Shimmier will terminate; this would apply to a projectile skill as well (so long as the projectile is not fired horizontally -- and even then, it could affect where a Shimmier stops on sloped terrain).
Runner - I disagree with Strato in that I don't feel the community has ever decisively rejected this.
Laser Blaster - I have misgivings about this skill because of the way L2 used it for releasing the crowd at the end, and nothing else. However, we shouldn't jump too quickly to the conclusion that it has no other utility. Strato has pointed out an interesting interaction with Shimmiers. Placing a laser correctly to alter the path of neutrals/zombies could also be an interesting puzzle space.
Turbo lemming? Walker becomes runner. Most other skills will be performed two times as fast.
the Runner... is only useful in combination with Jumpers (...the existence of a skill isn't really justified if it's only useful in combination with another skill).
one of the more serious suggestions I made was the Skateboarder. This is essentially a more versatile version of the Runner that provides a little more versatility than just a quickly-moving Walker.
The Slider however might be appealing to the more advanced players
a non-permanent Slider would give a way to get a single lemming down from a height without giving them a permanent skill. WillLem's jumper-into-slider idea also gives the skill a bit more traction. On the negative side: we already have two skills focused on getting down from a height; do we need a third?
Permanent-skill-remover - This works much better as an object.
Fair point, but I think that NeiSch's idea of a Turbo lemming would be more like SuperLemming from ONML, in that it would no doubt become a permanent skill (or maybe even cancellable by a Walker) and all skills performed by the Lemming from that point on would be done at double-speed.
As a proponent of action/execution-based gameplay, I'm highly in favour of this.
This is also a good idea, if somewhat complicated - I like it in principle though. From your description, I understand that it acts as a Lemming-raiser whilst also separating them from the crowd and providing extra speed and longer jumps: definitely a lot of benefits if this could be made to work.
Lightsaberer - I still think this would be great as a non-fatal bomber skill (and could also be used to kill zombies)! Due to its limited range of application beyond this though, I can see why it wouldn't be top of people's lists. Worth a mention though so thanks for the link, Namida.
This is one of my favourite ideas, and I still think it's how a Jumper should interact with a wall, but I think we've moved on from that now. So... I'd suggest having the Slider as a non-permanent skill but one that can be used in combination with a Jumper: i.e., if assigned mid-jump, the Jumper lem would transition to a slider upon contact with the wall, thus opening up all of the various possibilities such as non-permanent no-Splat, ability to climb form this state, ability to perform wall jump from this state, etc. Loads of great potential for both puzzles and action-based gameplay.
Even though NeoLemmix would make these skills a little more tolerable thanks to rewinding and framestepping, we probably don't want to introduce a skill that more often than not has to actively rely on those features.
By "rejected" I mean that it [the runner] was originally supposed to be introduced together with or around the same time as the Jumper - and as you can see, all that talk has disappeared for "just introducing the Jumper" instead. Another case of something that was never stated explicitly, but "acted out".
QuoteI think that NeiSch's idea of a Turbo lemming would be more like SuperLemming from ONML, in that it would no doubt become a permanent skill (or maybe even cancellable by a Walker) and all skills performed by the Lemming from that point on would be done at double-speed.
The thing with SuperLemming from ONML is that it only features a single lemming - and actually, the entire game speed is increased. ;) So it's just like pressing down the fast-forward key. And the SuperLemming gimmick in NeoLemmix 1.43 (e.g. on the Hasty rank of Lemmicks) does precisely that.
I'm willing to consider the following L2 skills, and no others:
- Laser-Blaster
- Bazooka / Mortar
- Slider - either as a permanent or non-permanent skill
The Tank. A permanent skill which makes a lemming invulnerable to fire objects and triggered traps. The animation would be a lemming covered in metal plating. As such, this lemming could still drown in water areas. It would be debatable whether he could still be turned into a Swimmer, as "drowning in water" is just a regular behaviour this lemming would keep, like any other lemming - or whether it should be made explicitly impossible by making Swimmer and Tank mutually exclusive, much like Floater and Glider. In contrast to the Disarmer, it's only this individual lemming that gets immune to traps, which seems to have more uses than disabling the trap for good once a single Disarmer touches it.
Also, the Tank could safely walk among Zombies without getting infected - but wouldn't actually end up killing them. He'd simply pass through them.
All in all, this is similar to what Ghosts used to be, except that Tanks can of course still interact with exits and other objects (pickup skills, buttons, splitters, teleporters etc.). Ghosts would also ignore water, which is still lethal and thus the Achilles's heel of the Tank. Finally, Ghosts encountering zombies would end up intimidating those just like regular lemmings, causing the zombies to turn around, whereas the Tank would just ignore them and walk right through them. He could be assigned a Blocker, though, to turn zombies around.
The Rusher: I'm sorry, but the ways you proposed how this skill would affect the execution of every other skill seem quite random to me.
For clarity: does "widespread" mean "diverse", like the way the proposed Rusher has a different interaction with every skill, or are you also ruling out skills that have the same effect on every other skill, like the proposed Turbo Lemming? If the latter, can I ask what's the reasoning behind this? (While it's not my leading candidate by a long shot, I think it has at least enough merit not to be ruled out yet -- but I don't know how complicated it would be to code, which seems like it might be the determining factor.)
But I'm going to drop one more "general" rather than specific rule-out: Anything that has widespread effects on other skills used by the lemming... This would include things like the Rusher or any other "Superlemming by another name" skill.
With all these choices, Should this be put up to a vote? like once a good selection is decided for a poll?
But I'm going to drop one more "general" rather than specific rule-out: Anything that has widespread effects on other skills used by the lemming... This would include things like the Rusher or any other "Superlemming by another name" skill.
Have I read this correctly... does this mean Turbo Lemming is a definite no? :(
I don't know how the jumper interacts with the climber in NeoLemmix (climber sticks when jumping into a wall? climber can jump off a wall?) but if these behaviours are implemented, the slider could be consistent with those (i.e. starting to slide when jumping into a wall/slider can jump off walls).
On a more general note, "20 is a nice round number" is a horrible reason to have exactly 20 skills. I would argue if the discussion doesn't bring up any fully convincing skill sticking with 19 is preferable; similarly if multiple very strong candidates come up (they might even interact or complement each other in some way) then adding more than 1 is preferable.
Turbo lemming? Walker becomes runner. Most other skills will be performed two times as fast.
A right-facing lemming builds a 6-pixel vertical tile, jumps on top of it, and creates another tile to the right of its peak, and so on...
If this materialises, it would be a great alternative to give lemmings better upwards access!
If you've made / seen a suggestion that isn't listed anywhere in the first post, please feel free to bring it up again (and perhaps point me towards the posts discussing it).
Hookshotter seems not to be listed, unless you intended "or another zombie-killing skill" to cover it. But it's primarily a movement skill with a suggestion that we could give it zombie-killing as a side effect.
My choice would be a ranged skill, like:
The L2 spear thrower.
All in all, I would either aim for a (spear)-thrower or a bazooka/mortar skill and maybe even both to have the possibility for ranged terrain creation and destruction.
Thinking about it more I can even see combinations with destructive skills that make a tunnel through which the projectile can then fly through.
I just had a thought. In my Hookshotter proposal, I suggested (just as an idea, not as an essential part of the skill concept) that the lemming should fire in the direction of motion: forwards normally; upwards during the Shimmier's "reach"; diagonally upwards while jumping.
How about applying the same direction-choice mechanic to the Laser Blaster? That would give us multiple directions without requiring another player action, and give the skill a bit more versatility
The Spear Thrower would definitely also make more sense as a "Zombie-killer" skill, compared to the Hookshotter!
1) The amount of versatility the Slider promises to add seems hard to beat.
in conjunction with the shimmier it can climb on the underside of platforms
transitioning from a Slider to a Shimmier at the bottom of a vertical drop, i.e. at the last possible frame before the Slider lets go of the wall and turns back into a Faller
Turns out this is indeed standard Shimmier behaviour in L2 for both the Climber and the Rock Climber. And it's extremely useful.
Whenever I want to accomplish something remotely comparable in NeoLemmix, I have to fiddle around a lot, by doing the following:
- send TWO Shimmiers rather than one
- the first one drops at the end of the platform and becomes a Stoner
- the second Shimmier lands on top of the Stoner
- now that second Shimmier needs to turn around somehow (Walker?)
- build a stack to close the gap between Stoner and ceiling / wall
- climb up the stack and then the wall
So in current NeoLemmix, this same outcome requires two Shimmiers, one Stoner, one Walker, one Stacker, and at least one Climber. That's FIVE out of ten possible skill types just to pull of this basic maneuvre!
2) This "who says A must also say B" logic:
But let me explain why the slider mostly provides a ton of redundant interactions that we can already achieve:
... The only thing that remains is:
And the other thing I really like about the Slider is the way its turning is sometimes an advantage and sometimes a disadvantage
1.) A slider + jumper could be subsituted by a glider in a lot of design cases. Updrafts can also help to correct the trajectory.
2.) The turnaround of a slider can be substituted with a walker. In the case of 2 horizontal platforms parallel to each other a glider + cloner does the trick.
3.) If you want to simply get down: Floater/glider/updraft + maybe a walker/cloner
4.) Interruption of a climber. We have the jumper option now. You can design keeping the arc in mind.
5.) Jumper -> sliider: Jumper + floater should achieve similar things.
To convince you more in terms of puzzle potential here are some examples for both skills that I just know thought of without much thinking around:
- Stoners/stackers to create wider platforms or removing them.
- Destructive skills with make a path for the projectile to fly through.
- Create platforms for lemmings to fall on. (Thrower)
- Create holes in walls for something like a glider. (Mortar/bazooka)
- Create terrain to shimmy under it. (Thrower)
- Remove terrain to allow a climber/shimmier/jumper to continue. (Mortar/bazooka)
- Cloners give the ability to hit the left and right side.
The Slider can only go down in specific places. Finding those places or creating them in the first place can be an interesting part of a puzzle. The most challenging puzzles are often about how to accomplish a thing that's pretty commonplace by itself: Containing the crowd, isolating a worker lemming, surviving a drop, or simply turning a lemming around just the right number of times.
And this is the other big selling point of the Slider: His distinctive way of turning lemmings around.
Since he usually looks the other way than all remaining Fallers - and does so by default, rather than requiring a Walker / Cloner assignment every time, as it is the case in your examples - he can be useful to isolate a worker lemming from a non-contained crowd. This way, he can be a powerful tool for very challenging flow-control puzzles. But rather than the Walker, which is often regarded as overpowered, you can't simply turn him around anywhere - you need to use the terrain to your advantage, find a drop where you can turn the Slider around, and only there it will work.
Other times, the fact that he turns around will backfire, just like the fact that the Climber goes over every straight wall. That is also usually an advantage, but it can be a disadvantage at times (again, one of the main points raised in favour of the permanent-skill-removal object).
But I think I've sufficiently shown how this is not such a clear-cut case as Swimmer vs. Kayaker (the Kayaker is strictly worse than the Swimmer, because it's single-use, and there is no situation in which drowning is better than being a Swimmer - unless you explicitly need to kill a lemming to prevent it from doing some kind of damage, but by that logic, any "bad" skill good be good :evil: ).
I know some people regard the Slider in its core applications as nothing but a "weaker Floater". And usually, this raises the question: "Why would we want something that's just a weaker version of an existing skill?" But I think I've sufficiently shown how this is not such a clear-cut case as Swimmer vs. Kayaker (the Kayaker is strictly worse than the Swimmer, because it's single-use, and there is no situation in which drowning is better than being a Swimmer - unless you explicitly need to kill a lemming to prevent it from doing some kind of damage, but by that logic, any "bad" skill good be good :evil: ).
For example, your point 5) only holds up when the lemming needs to jump across a gap in order to be able to float down safely. If there is terrain connecting the position where the lemming drops and where he's supposed to land, he can simply float down directly and walk, no jump required.
However, if you don't have a Floater, only a rough cliff under which there is terrain at splat height, the Slider will not be able to get down there directly. But let's say on the other side of that cliff is a straight wall. The lemming can now jump over to the other side and start sliding from there. It's basically like "one-way arrows for splat heights"
This list, although it includes some nice ideas, is somewhat "dishonest" or at least misleading, because you put both distant destruction and distant creation into one list, either assuming that we will have both eventually, or depicting the puzzle potential of the individual skill (meaning only either distant destruction or creation) as more vast than it actually is.
Apart from that, I just want to say: Creating terrain with the Spear Thrower to shimmy under it sounds very precise ;) . Especially since one spear is probably not going to be very long, so you'll need to stick several spears into each other back-to-back. And the Shimmier is very sensitive to height differences - any deviation of two or more pixels between two spears would make him quit. Thus, I can only see this work if the Spear Thrower always throws at a straight horizontal line. That would basically make him a Platformer with range.
Except that the spear would be thrown over the lemming's shoulder, i.e. it would not land at the height of his feet. So he couldn't actually walk onto a path created by his own spears.
QuoteAnd the other thing I really like about the Slider is the way its turning is sometimes an advantage and sometimes a disadvantage
The way I see this is that the level can always be designed that not turning is sometimes an advantage and sometimes a disadvantage as well. The direction can always be designed around for.
Similarly to the upward Digger / downward Builder discussion, this is another case where it would feel weird to have one but not the other. Why just distant construction, but not distant destruction? Or the other way round?
and it's a shame the Fencer was added so that we can't have two slots still open for new skills
Of course that's true; but what is uniquely gained with the Slider is that some lemmings will turn around after every fall while others will not, and both groups need a way to get to the exit.
Of course that's true; but what is uniquely gained with the Slider is that some lemmings will turn around after every fall while others will not, and both groups need a way to get to the exit.QuoteExactly! ;)
---> splitters
The main question stays, why add something similar when we can add something that we don't have currently?
1) I think we're working with different conceptions of what is "similar". The Spear Thrower to me sounds very similar to the Stoner (because of how easily it can break falls by adding just a little piece of terrain, which also frequently results in easy-to-overlook backroutes) and the Platformer (because it creates a horizontal plane lemmings can walk over or shimmy under).
2) Because for some or even many of us, interactions between skills are one of the main driving points of puzzles - and the Slider has a lot of options, "attachment points" were it can easily connect with all the other skills. I'm pretty convinced the Slider would fit in with the already existing skills so naturally as if it had always been there ;) .
In fact, while namida agreed with us that a skill that's only good in the interaction with 1-2 skills isn't worth implementing (main argument used against the Runner back then), I think he stated that a skill that doesn't do much on its own but interacts with nearly all the others could already be considered worthwhile. (This is the main case for the Turbo Lemming, since it would accelerate all skills - but namida has already ruled that specific one out.) The most famous example would probably be the Cloner - just getting another lemming does next to nothing, but copying all the skills plus inverting the direction of performance is what makes it the ultimate "joker" skill.
The Slider, in contrast, already has specific applications by itself. But when you combine it with Jumpers, Climbers, Shimmiers, Bombers, Stoners, and then also destructive skills (because since he's facing the wall while falling, he doesn't need to turn around before bashing / mining / fencing into that wall), the number of potential new interactions seems nigh infinite!
and why, with the danger of repeating myself for the Xth time, should we add a skill that (even with the combination with other skills) achieves mostly the same things we can do already?
1.) A slider + jumper could be subsituted by a glider in a lot of design cases. Updrafts can also help to correct the trajectory.
2.) The turnaround of a slider can be substituted with a walker. In the case of 2 horizontal platforms parallel to each other a glider + cloner does the trick.
3.) If you want to simply get down: Floater/glider/updraft + maybe a walker/cloner
4.) Interruption of a climber. We have the jumper option now. You can design keeping the arc in mind.
5.) Jumper -> sliider: Jumper + floater should achieve similar things.
You are totally leaving out the range factor in here and the possibilities with the projectile arc itself. Also it doesn't reuire a sacrifice and cannot be activated mid-air. Again the range is the big selling point for both skills. Of course if you leave it out it gets similar.
There is no way to transition from Falling into shimmying along a ceiling without doing a workaround requiring several skills, several lemmings, and sacrificing at least one of them.
The big difference here is that a Jumper can hold on to a wall if he's a Climber, whereas a Glider explicitly bounces off a wall (even if he is a Climber, i.e. comparable otherwise). A Jumper can also transition into a Shimmier. Sliding down and jumping alone may have a similar result as gliding, yes - but you stopped at that two-way interaction. The three-way interactions Slider-Jumper-Climber and Slider-Jumper-Shimmier are the ones you left out - and those are things the Glider absolutely can't do: He can neither transition into a Climber nor into a Shimmier.
Well, duh, the Walker can always turn around lemmings - and precisely for that reason, it's the most boring way to accomplish this! :P Even assigning a Blocker temporarily and having to free him later (by a different mean than a Walker!) is more creative than simply providing a Walker for that purpose. More than that, leaving "taste" and "originality" aside, the Walker is also so powerful that it can quickly cause backroutes, due to its multiple uses:
A Walker you provide just for the purpose of turning a lemming around may get abused to free a Blocker, or to cancel another skill mid-performance (Bashers / Fencers / Miners). You can't abuse a Slider to do either of those things. And the Slider's turning behaviour can also result in a drawback, like a Climber going over walls that end up killing him. The Walker is just too flexible for this comparison, because you will only assign a Walker when you actually need the lemming to turn around - you won't be faced with the challenge of the lemming turning around by himself.
Again, the Floater is the least creative way to make a fall survivable. Gliders are more versatile, of course - but I don't see how updrafts come into play here? Or Walkers and Cloners? How do any of the latter help a lemming get down (unless the terrain is set up specifically to do that, of course)?
This isn't even one of the main arguments for the Slider, because the idea that assigning a Slider to a Climber who is currently climbing should stop him from doing that wasn't that popular. But even if this were to happen: The Jumper catapults the Climber upwards and in the opposite direction he was looking before. The Slider goes down and keeps looking in the same direction as the Climber. In other words, the two skills would lead the lemming to opposite ends of the level.
If you need to cancel a Climber below the ceiling (which is probably the most common thing, since that's when it's most crucial) and do it with a Jumper, that might just kill the lemming because it
a) takes him beyond the top edge of the level, or
b) takes him to such heights that the ensuing fall will be splat height.
Should it become possible to interrupt a Climber by assigning a Slider while climbing, this would not run the risk of catapulting the Climber beyond the ceiling, and it would also ensure a safe way down instead.
Again, only if you stop at that two-way interaction. After Jumper--> Slider, the lemming might well transition into a Shimmier at the end of the drop; or he might slide down up to a certain extent and then jump back off in the other direction.
This is something that even Gliders would have difficulty to pull of, because once a Glider has been assigned, you no longer have control over the points where the lemming hits the wall and turns around. Assigning Jumpers to Sliders, in contrast, allows the lemming to bounce from one wall to another or to a platform at the exact right spot more easily.
In short: It drastically reduces execution difficulty. ;) And isn't that something we all want?
Because the lemming is so far away from the terrain he is affecting, the changes he can make to that terrain are also usually just minor.
Why would you chain several spears to each other to create a bridge when you could simply use a Platformer?
Why throw a spear into the path of a falling lemmings to break their fall, when stoning one of those falling lemmings accomplishes the exact same thing?
QuoteThere is no way to transition from Falling into shimmying along a ceiling without doing a workaround requiring several skills, several lemmings, and sacrificing at least one of them.
But there is still a workaround.
Again, how is assigning a slider more creative than assigning a floater? It still gets the job done.
QuoteWhy would you chain several spears to each other to create a bridge when you could simply use a Platformer?
- Make the gap narrow enough that 1 spear does the job.
- Platformers are very slow, a throw is faster.
I am totally fine if we find a better skill than a thrower/bazooka one. It just has to be unique and providing something we currently don't have. The slider isn't doing that or isn't doing that enough.
Regarding the workarounds for proposed behaviours, one thing I have to say is that the more complex they get, the more they scream "backroute potential!" to me...
And you again don't see the possibility to adapt the terrain for these kind of things. The designer has total control and can design these things to not be precise. You don't need a new skill for it.
- Make the gap narrow enough that 1 spear does the job.
- Platformers are very slow, a throw is faster.
This is a very good case for the Spear-thrower: where the Bomber is an instant destructive skill, it would be good to have an instantly constructive skill that's a) non-sacrificial, and b) big enough to instantly close a large(ish) gap. I can definitely see the potential in this idea.
A spear must be thrown into already present terrain. That means the crowd will either hit a wall and turn or get on a platform and walk along.
Also you need to position the thrower first, getting that done is another challenge.
A stoner mostly just breaks the fall.
- Make the gap narrow enough that 1 spear does the job.
- Platformers are very slow, a throw is faster.
[. . .]
Also you need to position the thrower first, getting that done is another challenge.
Personally, I like the idea of more movement skills: we have more than enough terrain creation/destruction skills. Sure, they might be giving the game increasingly more "parkour potential", and I get why you might be against that idea. But ultimately, maybe the 20th skill should also bring with it a sense of balance.
And - level designers can still choose to limit the number of movement skills available in a given level, so we won't completely lose the need to find inventive workarounds. A lot of the original levels do just that: "sure, we could give you a blocker or some extra builders here, but we're not going to: find a workaround!"
Assigning a Slider is perhaps more "creative" in the sense that more can be done with the Slider state: assigning to Jumper, transitioning to Shimmier, landing facing the wall (I think this seems to be the current assumption, anyway).
If there are two ways to get the same job done, but one of them offers even just one more possibility, which are you going to favour?
If there are two ways to get the same job done, but one of them offers even just one more possibility, which are you going to favour?
QuoteRegarding the workarounds for proposed behaviours, one thing I have to say is that the more complex they get, the more they scream "backroute potential!" to me...
Exactly! ;) The more skills I have to provide to enable a workaround - especially when it comes to skills as powerful and backroute-prone as Walkers and Stoners, which is the case in all of my examples for substituting the Slider - the more likely this is to invite backroutes indeed.
Of course the designer can adapt everything. But let me phrase this the other way round: The absence of the Slider forces the designer to adapt the terrain in a way he/she might not want to. If a certain skill behaviour is not possible in the first place and you keep adapting the terrain to make up for that, then at what point would we just say this is a completely different solution than intended? ;)
It's interseting that WillLem called those two things a good case for the Spear Thrower, because both sound like horribly precise execution difficulty to me. :P The spear would probably be just one pixel in diameter and a couple of pixels in length. Meaning, if you want to make a gap narrow enough for just a spear to be thrown through it, it would have to be a 1-pixel gap (well, if that doesn't sound like fun). But I think you are referring to the gap the spear is supposed to lead across here. So let's say that's 12 or 16 pixels. How deep does the spear stick in the terrain it lands in? If this is just one pixel too far, there will be a gap remaining on the side from which the spear was thrown.
Still, the question remains: How do you get a spear to span across two chunks of terrain of equal height (like a Platformer bridge)? The spear would have to be thrown over the lemming's shoulder, i.e. from a higher altitude than the lemming's feet. Does that mean it always requires an additional Builder or Jumper to get on top of a "bridge" created by the Spear Thrower in the first place?
Because for some or even many of us, interactions between skills are one of the main driving points of puzzles - and the Slider has a lot of options, "attachment points" were it can easily connect with all the other skills.
whereas the Slider in its core application is of similar power as the Floater, and then some.
However, I'm generally a bit surprised about your several remarks here that almost seem to imply you like the Spear Thrower for... execution difficulty?
Those things (speed-based solutions and proper positioning) are precisely my main objection against all the projectile skills from Lemmings 2: The Tribes! The Thrower, the Spear Thrower, the Bazooker, the Mortar
This is precisely why in the "suggest your own 10-skill panel" thread ("Defining the new classic 10 skills" was kind of re-purposed to that recently), I dropped the Floater in favour of the Glider - because the Glider can accomplish the same thing as a Floater (when it comes to saving a lemming from a single lethal drop) if you just assign it late enough.
A Glider can only "backfire" due to its diagonal trajectory once it has already been assigned, by taking a lemming too far and leaving the player no option to delay the opening of the parachute - but then again, the same can be said for the Floater: If you need to survive a straight drop first, and at the next drop, there is a gap or water there so that you would need a Glider instead, the Floater can blow up in the player's face just as much as the Glider can.
In general, I'd even argue that the better a skill gets one specific job done - and only that job - the less puzzle potential it has. Namely, the Floater, the Disarmer, and possibly the Swimmer. But the Swimmer still has the most puzzle potential of these three, and even that skill has been called obsolete by Proxima!
But since I think we established that the number of different things you can do with the Floater is more limited, my argument is that the Floater is the one more worthy of being "replaced" by other skills.
Basically, the only difference is:
- IchoTolot suggests to use workarounds with other skills to replace the Slider
- I suggest using the Slider to create workarounds that can replace Floaters and Gliders
But why waste this last opportunity on a skill that just makes some interactions more backroute prone and on top of that doesn't really add anything completely new to the table?
The last 2 skills that were added are movement skills. I think it is also time to add to another group again.
You called it being a combination skill a plus point for the slider earlier:
[. . .]
Now it's a weak point.
You you say it yourself: The core is mostly redundant!
I think you missunderstood proper positioning here. It's not the precision of the throw, just getting a lemming on the right area of the map.
Because adding something completely new can also open a new can of worms. ;) When the purpose of adding the final skill is to close NeoLemmix. The final skill should be like a lid that fits the already existing barrel - not stack another open barrel on top of the existing one. It should naturally fit in with what we already have while still providing something new. But ideally, it should not leave level designers craving for more of whatever the 20th skill introduces.
And modifying terrain at a distance is such a new ground. Why should there be a Spear Thrower, but not a Bazooker or Mortar? Or a Laser Blaster? Or even the Archer, which overall is much more versatile than the Spear Thrower, but simply takes a lot more effort to code?
Since this is going to be the final version of NeoLemmix, a couple of months after the implementation of the final skill, this "sequencing" will be less of an issue than simply the question what types of tools we have at our disposal in total. Especially new players joining next year will not know in which order Fencer, Shimmier, Jumper and 20th skill were implemented.
Also, the parkour options are really getting out of hand I fear and the specific combinations seem to make the game more complex than it needs to be and it already is complex.
A skill that only interacts with one other skill AND is only good in combination with that other skill - such as the Runner being essentially dependent on the Jumper, without modifying the behaviour of any other skill, in contrast to the Turbo Lemming - is not worthwhile on its own. Meaning, if a Spear Thrower can only create a bridge that lemmings can reliably walk onto through the interaction of the Builder specifically, that would be an argument not in its favour. I don't think the Spear Thrower is actually that limited, to be clear - but indeed I still have trouble imagining the bridging applications for the Spear Thrower in my head.
In contrast, a skill that interacts with several other skills can indeed be worthwhile. The extreme case would be the Cloner, which interacts with all non-lethal skills. The Slider can interact with Jumpers, Climbers, Shimmiers, Bombers/Stoners (by slipping into the gap / landing on the Stoner with already the correct position towards the wall to bash into that wall), and thus by extension also with Bashers/Miners/Fencers in new ways.
No, the core is weaker than the Floater, because it's more situational. The Slider is less overpowered in its core domain than the Floater, thereby reducing the "boringness" that arises from such a single-issue skill (extreme case: Disarmer). At the same time, it's not just a "strictly worse" Floater, like the Kayaker is a strictly worse Swimmer. This is important because I guess nobody would voluntarily use an objectively worse skill. Instead, the Slider makes up for his weaknesses in the Floater-specific application by adding in a whole bunch of new behaviours and interactions with several other skills. That is the part I was describing with "and then some".
Thank you for clarifying this! ;) I'm still not sure I understand your various ideas for "spear from above" and "spear from below". How would this work without the player controlling the angle at which the spear is thrown? Which would require Archer-like double-assignments, and namida has already ruled out those.
Would you suggest a parabolic trajectory for the spear, like for the Jumper? Or as the Mortar would also have it?
It might be a good idea to draw up a list of the skills in their respective categories and see which list has the least skills on it (I would do that, but I'm not sure I'd be the best person to do this coz I'm not 100% sure which skills fit into which category).
Constructive: Builder, Platformer, Stacker, Stoner (4)
Destructive: Basher, Miner, Digger, Fencer, Bomber (5)
Movement: Walker, Jumper, Shimmier, Climber, Floater, Glider, Swimmer (7)
Other:
* Blocker could be considered a non-movement skill, and affects the movement of other lemmings.
* Disarmer is the only skill that interacts directly with traps, putting it in a category of its own.
* Cloner is a unique skill that can duplicate a constructive, destructive or movement skill.
why not have the Rock Climber, which would basically be a climber that can handle overhangs similar to what shimmiers can handle as well as having this synergy with the shimmier that was rejected for the regular climber
but the reason I bring it up is that I don't think it would make sense to have three different non-terrain altering ways to get lemmings down from a ledge that's too high, but only one non-terrain altering way to get them up.
One of the other proposed movement-based skills, the runner, is something that I think has more abuse potential (I really, really don't like precise timing levels) than puzzle potential (as there are already many, many ways to separate lemmings from crowds). It exists in Lix, but Lix has multiplayer, which is where I think the runner has the most potential. Even without the implication that it will be the last new skill ever, I do not feel prepared to endorse either of these skills as future additions to the game.
I think of the skills that have been suggested, the projectile skills have the most potential. It takes enough other skills to replicate the functionality that it creates lots of backroute potential when working around the fact they don't exist - if the puzzle can even be made to work without them. But I don't think it makes sense to implement a ranged construction skill, but not a ranged destructive skill (or vice versa). That would bring us to 21 skills, which isn't as nice of a number as 20, but... does that really matter?
I think many of the skills proposed are potentially good additions and it's too bad that we are forced to pick one.
I think it would be helpful if namida defined again what he means by "final version of NeoLemmix".
Reaching a final version isn't about implementing, or even considering, every idea anyone can possibly think of. It's about deciding at some point "this is enough, this is going to be NL's final list of features, and no more additions will happen'.
Of course, as it's open-source, someone else could take over, either under the NeoLemmix name (if the community chooses to accept their new versions) or a fork under a new name, similar to how NeoLemmix itself forked from Lemmix.
We would just have to hope that each of these animations has an equal number of frames as the original...
I do see Icho's point about that it's worthwhile considering projectile constructive skills, so I've added that to the list of stuff that I'm willing to consider - though labelling it as "under consideration" would need to see more community support, which I am fully aware may not have come yet because prior to this it could essentially be ruled out under "Any other L2 skills" (which was my intention, but Icho's posts have caused me to rethink this). So if you do like such an idea - and this doesn't have to be specifically "I like it more than the Slider", just "I think it's worth giving serious consideration to" - then speak up now. :)
So, I'm just rewatching IchoTolot's Let's Play of Lemmings 2, looking for applications of the Spearer. Even though the Spearer appeared on the skill panel, it wasn't used so far (Beach, Outdoor, and Egyptian tribe at the moment). Though IchoTolot did mention repeatedly in that Let's Play how he really doesn't like the Slider :P .
though labelling it as "under consideration" would need to see more community support
I do see Icho's point about that it's worthwhile considering projectile constructive skills, so I've added that to the list of stuff that I'm willing to consider - though labelling it as "under consideration" would need to see more community support, which I am fully aware may not have come yet because prior to this it could essentially be ruled out under "Any other L2 skills" (which was my intention, but Icho's posts have caused me to rethink this). So if you do like such an idea - and this doesn't have to be specifically "I like it more than the Slider", just "I think it's worth giving serious consideration to" - then speak up now. :)
Okay :) On my side, I have doubts about the Spear-thrower because, if I remember rightly, the position you throw from could determine the angle the spear ends up having when it lands, so it could get very fiddly even with the help of skill shadows. Still, I do see the benefit of being able to add terrain from a distance, and especially adding a platform to stop fallers halfway down a wall, allowing them to interact with the wall. I think, compared to my original list (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4686.msg80270#msg80270), I would put Spear-thrower (or other ranged constructive) as my third choice, after slider and ranged destructive.
I think, compared to my original list (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4686.msg80270#msg80270), I would put Spear-thrower (or other ranged constructive) as my third choice, after slider and ranged destructive.
If level authors seem unable to use the skill better than just that, then maybe it's not worth introducing, not because the skill is bad but because it seems like maybe no one will make good use of it anyway, apparently.
The Resetter - moves the lemming back to the exact place they landed when they fell out of the entrance hatch. This would have way more puzzle potential than the Randomer (particularly if the terrain around the entrance hatch area has been changed) and would obviously be more predictable.
The Randomer - when a lemming is in immediate danger and you just need something to get them out of it, the Randomer places the lemming somewhere else in the level that's a) safe and b) away from the other lemmings.
I feel that this would also introduce a fun element of unpredictability to the game: if we're looking for a skill that will bring something completely new to the table, this would definitely fit the bill!
However, to maybe reduce the potential ridiculousness of this idea, maybe...
The Sleeper - the lemming falls asleep in their current position and stays there until assigned another skill or "rescued" in the same manner as a Blocker (i.e. by removing the terrain directly below them). They do not block other lemmings, but they can be assigned any other skill from their current position. This could be extremely useful for lining up several worker lemmings who can then perform a number of simultaneous tasks (without having to spam the level with Blocker/Walkers, for instance). If the idea of the lemming being "asleep" seems a bit counter-intuitive, maybe the skill could simply be The Waiter...
The Resetter - moves the lemming back to the exact place they landed when they fell out of the entrance hatch. This would have way more puzzle potential than the Randomer (particularly if the terrain around the entrance hatch area has been changed) and would obviously be more predictable.
Okay :) On my side, I have doubts about the Spear-thrower because, if I remember rightly, the position you throw from could determine the angle the spear ends up having when it lands, so it could get very fiddly even with the help of skill shadows.
I think by now you've figured out that unpredictability is the last thing the NeoLemmix community at large would want to be added to the game :P .
The Sleeper...
This can already be done - and is already being done - with the Blocker on many advanced levels, and the Blocker is perfectly sufficient for this.
the Resetter...
Usually, this would be applied after the path for the crowd has been prepared. Meaning, the way from the hatch is already safe.
And in turn, if there's still some work to be done on the side of the hatch, why not simply have a lemming from the crowd do it, instead of teleporting the worker back to the hatch? There's no need to enforce everything being done by the pioneer - in fact, a lot of players might consider that somewhat boring, because "pioneer" levels sometimes get frowned at by the more advanced players here. (Because those levels involve crowd containment rather than flow control.)
Possibility of permanent skill reset as wellwould also distinguish it further from a teleporter, or simply another transport skill.
So in other words, maybe there're only 4-5 different angles the spear is ever at despite the trajectory itself being smooth parabola. At various points in the trajectory, the spear's angle would abruptly go from one angle to the next.
I know, but there has been talk of bringing something completely new and different to the table, so... :P
Actually (and this is the distinction I'd make with the Resetter), I think they should reset to the place where they landed, and not simply re-spawn from the hatch. That way, if terrain and stuff has changed around/beneath the entrance hatch, it could potentially start them off on a totally different route (after having picked up pickup skills that allow this, for instance).
Furthermore, Icho's idea that the Resetter hasQuotePossibility of permanent skill reset as well
would also distinguish it further from a teleporter, or simply another transport skill.
While yes, this may result in a separation of the resetted lemming from the crowd occasionally, most of the time, the hatch is not placed at such high altitudes or in such immediate danger that a path needs to be constructed right away to make some lemmings land elsewhere than others.
I thought we had agreed that permanent-skill removal is supposed to be accomplished by an object, not a skill (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2945.0)? ;)
Sure, if you have a hatch above an abyss and need a Glider to even get the level started, the Resetter would place the lemming at the point where the Glider landed. But such levels tend not to be too popular, because any type of level involving a deadly drop right out of the hatch usually has some arbitrary hassle of saving the crowd as fast as possible before the actual puzzle itself can begin. By all means, make crowd control and -containment part of the challenge, but doing so by using a deadly drop right out of the hatch is somewhat of a cheap way to go about it, I think ;) .
Steel works, meanwhile, merely delay the actual puzzle with this start.
Meaning, simply giving the player a bunch of Builders and Floaters is precisely NOT how it should be done :P
What about The Creator - a lemming that creates a temporary bit of terrain that has a countdown timer, and when that timer reaches zero the terrain either explodes, leaving a bomber-sized hole, or turns into another lemming.
Or The SuperSwimmer - a lemming that can swim in midair, and leaves a trail of terrain behind them.
Do you seriously think this will fly with the people who voted for the removal of radiation and slowfreeze? :P (And the removal of timed bombers much earlier...)
I also like the thought that there's still something new, and useful, that didn't even exist in Lemmings 2...
Shouldn't the Rocketer and Tunneler go together then, because they are also very similar? If the Rocketer is able to remove terrain, what's the difference to the Tunneler?
The problem with the zombie killing skill is the following:
It's a skill that can be useful, if a level has zombies in it.
Only a small fraction of levels are zombie levels and in only a fraction of that it is useful.
That's not enough.
The problem with the zombie killing skill is the following:
It's a skill that can be useful, if a level has zombies in it.
Only a small fraction of levels are zombie levels and in only a fraction of that it is useful.
That's not enough.
The possibilities here are:
a) Zombie killing is one of several effects
b) It kills all lemmings, just including zombies
c) Considering whether this might make zombie levels more viable for some creators
Indeed, the laser blaster could work well for either A or B - I could definitely see some puzzle potential coming out of both "use it to kill zombies" and "you must avoid it killing regular lemmings".
It would make sense for any/all of the ranged skills to have this as additional behaviour:
- Laser Blaster: fries the Zombie from below (can even kill Zombie Fallers!), i.e. the Zombie dies in the same animation as if he walked into fire
- Bazooker / Mortar: projectile hits Zombie, or Zombie is in the area of the explosion that creates the crater (explosion star like for a Bomber, then the Zombie is gone)
- Spear Thrower: impales the Zombie, causing him to splat. Passing through the Zombie should affect the spear's further trajectory (like when it flies through a Ballooner's balloon in Lemmings 2)
in Neolemmix, the glider is already adequate at providing similar restrictions.
7) Slider - Now here's a skill that's way cooler than the floater. It's heavily terrain-based and genuinely useful, and best of all it is absolutely hilarious in how it messes with the lemming's direction constantly, and often that can end up as a puzzle entirely by itself. The way it combos with the shimmier is just awesome, giving it quite a lot of flexibility. There's all sorts of stuff you can do with this skill and I think it deserves a lot more attention. I wish I'd used it more often.
n fact, I tried emulating a Slider with a Glider in the attached level by using one-way fields, and it didn't work: The one-way field will trap the Glider between the wall and its trigger area, now allowing him to move at all (not even down). Instead, I had to use a Floater. (Replay is attached.)
Thus, while I do think comparisons with the Floater are fair when it comes to the Slider, the Glider seems hardly an appropriate comparison:
And the comparisons you listed here can be emulated with other skills which I already have shown in older posts inside this topic. I don't want to repeat myself anymore.
Even from a balance perspective: This is the last skill we will add to NL and we already have by far the most movement skills, I think adding a different type of skill is the way to go. I even would rather put the laster blaster in it than the slider to be honest.
This is a known bug that I hope to fix for V12.9.X.
Let me show you this specific level I built myself for the case where the slider would be needed is not a very good argument for it. For every skill you can build a level requiring it.
I agree that we have enough movement options in the first place,
why do we need something that a floater can do better?
Slider is already one of the leading candidates, without any particularly strong arguments against it, so it doesn't really need further defending at this point
I don't see the Slider as "yet another movement skill"
I see it as another permanent skill, of which we haven't had any new ones since the Disarmer.
why do we need something that a floater can do better?
quickly let go of the idea that surviving splat-height drops were the main purpose of the Slider.
If everyone is indeed rather willing to accept the Laser Blaster
The L2 upwards laser blaster is weak. Anything interesting with the upwards blaster would get too fiddly.
Instead, combine the Laser Blaster with the desire for the tunneler. Have the Laser Blaster shoot forward at a steep angle:
angle under a 2:1 slope is actually arctan(2) = 63.435 degrees?
It doesn't make the fencer too redundant?
Can we agree that no skill should result in the deaths of non-zombie lemmings...? It doesn't strike me as much of a "skill" if it's indiscriminatorily lethal - even bombers don't kill other lemmings.
Can we agree that no skill should result in the deaths of non-zombie lemmings...? It doesn't strike me as much of a "skill" if it's indiscriminatorily lethal - even bombers don't kill other lemmings.
QuoteIf everyone is indeed rather willing to accept the Laser Blaster
The L2 upwards laser blaster is weak. Anything interesting with the upwards blaster would get too fiddly.
Instead, combine the Laser Blaster with the desire for the tunneler. Have the Laser Blaster shoot forward at a steep angle:
(http://www.lixgame.com/etc/angled-laser-blaster.png)
In front of a wall, it's a tunneler.
It is ranged in that it can shoot over chasms.
It is still mostly vertical in spirit.
-- Simon
Permanents introduce state that is hard to see, and come with lots of special interaction rules. Have too many permanents, they'll get in each other's scope, and thus the need for rules grows quadratically.
And permanents have a higher chance to turn out the weakest in hindsight. The floater is the weakest skill in Lemmings 1. Runner and floater are the two weakest skills in Lix. The disarmer is the weakest skill in NL.
"I have many ideas in my head" just is not enough to add something as this can be said about almost everything.
I do not think the Slider should be a permanent skill: it would be far better as a single-use skill that could be used to temporarily cancel a Climber.
Actually, that is a very good argument for a skill. Because what's the point of a skill being introduced if people don't have a sufficient number of level ideas to warrant the inclusion of that skill? :P
Too limited use has always been Nepster's main argument for culling stuff. So if a skill gives level designers tons of ideas to work with, and already does so long prior to their introduction, that's a very strong mark in their favour! Why should namida put in the effort otherwise if a skill is barely going to be used?
I voted for the middle option, but I don't think it's a good question. Clearly, it depends on what the skill is. The Mortar (which is still my second favourite of the proposed skills) would be improved by lethality as a balancing measure; the Hookshotter, Spear Thrower and Laser Blaster could have lethality but it's not necessarily an improvement, so it may be better to leave out lethality for simplicity. I certainly don't agree with the ideological principle that having a lethal skill is a bad thing in itself. Many puzzles in the game require losing a few lemmings and require the player to work out where they need to make acceptable sacrifices; that is a deep part of the game and isn't going to go away.
Too limited use has always been Nepster's main argument for culling stuff. So if a skill gives level designers tons of ideas to work with, and already does so long prior to their introduction, that's a very strong mark in their favour! Why should namida put in the effort otherwise if a skill is barely going to be used?
Actually, that is a very good argument for a skill. Because what's the point of a skill being introduced if people don't have a sufficient number of level ideas to warrant the inclusion of that skill?
Too limited use has always been Nepster's main argument for culling stuff. So if a skill gives level designers tons of ideas to work with, and already does so long prior to their introduction, that's a very strong mark in their favour! Why should namida put in the effort otherwise if a skill is barely going to be used?
I honestly thought I would never get myself into Neolemmix and would just stuck to Lemmini and Superlemmini, but surprisingly it's not as bad as I thought. I think the biggest turnoff for me was the huge amount of features in Neolemmix, which was why it took me at least 5 years after I first used Lemmini.There you have it, but we keep on cheering for every new idea that has even the tiniest of usages that is popping up here and amplify the problem. That's also why the final version needs to happen soon! :8():
Second, this idea of "mental pathfinding" will again mainly affect people who like to plan the entire level in advance before even allowing the hatch to open. :P Let's say I do have empathy for people adhering to this philosophy... but not a lot of patience, in the sense that I often don't see how the rules of the game should bow to this "demand".
I want to remind you that the Slider is in many ways a downward Climber, more so than a Floater surrogate.
Thus, criticising a skill for making mental pathfinding more difficult to me sounds an awful lot like "I don't like this skill because it would require me to think too much"... which would be antithetical to the idea of playing a puzzle game in the first place.
Too limited use has always been Nepster's main argument for culling stuff. So if a skill gives level designers tons of ideas to work with, and already does so long prior to their introduction, that's a very strong mark in their favour! Why should namida put in the effort otherwise if a skill is barely going to be used?
Three years on, can we please just give this a rest? Nepster put a ton of work into NeoLemmix as well as being one of the best level designers in the community. I wouldn't still be using NL at all without his work on giving us a decent editor. I don't know where he is now or why he hasn't been around (and as far as I know, none of us do), but I miss him, I hope he's okay and I'd love to see him come back. It's a gross insult that you only seem to remember him as the guy who culled stuff.
For one thing, it's not even accurate; there have only been two occasions in NL's history when features have been culled, and Nepster was only in charge of one of them. I know you happened to join the forum at that time and that has coloured your perception; but Nepster promised that once new-formats was out, things would stabilise, there would be no more culls, and that is exactly what has happened.
For another, NL has continued to evolve, and now is even more firm about its philosophy of being a puzzle game that doesn't want to be associated with the execution difficulty of original Lemmings. Even if Nepster hadn't culled radiation and slowfreeze, it seems pretty certain that by now, namida would have done so at some point. (And finally -- the culls were done after a forum discussion, so it's not fair to blame Nepster alone. We, as a community, agreed to remove those features, just as earlier we agreed to remove gimmicks.)
The slider overrides normal rules at some future time: The next/every time the lem would fall, the lem slides instead. This breaks mental pathfinding. The skill must bring a ton of design goodness to overcome this massive burden.I consider this a boon rather than a burden for the slider. Having the slider turn always around was core to many puzzles in QFK, and I found it to be quite refreshing.
Permanents introduce state that is hard to see, and come with lots of special interaction rules. Have too many permanents, they'll get in each other's scope, and thus the need for rules grows quadratically.Just because some engines made bad choices in which permanent skills they chose doesn't mean that permanents generally make bad choices. The climber is one of the best skills. I rather think that their limitation is that they basically have to be movement skills, so you cannot have too many very unique ones of those. So if you do have many of them it's very likely that some of them suck or are redundant. But that just means that they need to be chosen wisely. One unique thing they bring to the table is that they allow you do to multiple things with a single assignment, which I think is always a good feature to have in a level. The floater is weak because you need to put a lot of effort to make use of it more than once. The runner is weak because it doesn't do anything (in L2 it would hop over small gaps, setting it apart from the rest of the crowd at least). The disarmer and swimmer are weak because their use cases are so very specific. I'm pretty sure if there'd been a lengthy discussion like now, the runner wouldn't be in Lix and the swimmer wouldn't be in NL.
And permanents have a higher chance to turn out the weakest in hindsight. The floater is the weakest skill in Lemmings 1. Runner and floater are the two weakest skills in Lix. The disarmer is the weakest skill in NL.
It's not on its own and that is what you seem to not get. The main thought must always also contain the consideration if it makes sense in the context of the game, if it adds too much complexity for too little gain, or if it's too similar. Otherwise you just get an ugly mix of ideas and a crappy game.
You just think about the number of levels you can make and not much more. Not seeing that most ideas can either already be replicated or are just very specific, while also not spending much thought about the added complexity that comes with it that everybody has to learn.
I'm happy to see that Kieran has chimed into the discussion, if anyone he should be the authority on the usefulness of L2 skills.
It seems like we agree on the rather limited use of the laser blaster and projectile terrain creation skills, though I also personally find the use of projectile terrain destruction skills rather limited as well from my experience.
Every new skill introduces complexity. I fail to see how the Slider doesn't make sense in the context of the game.
This seems more to me like an argument against any further new skills than against the Slider specifically.
That's surprising to hear, I would have guessed that to be very simple to implement. What kind of mess is the code if this is tricky to do?
I mean, if you know the coordinate where to draw the lemming you also know the coordinate where to place the block?
I'll also go on record as saying that another of his culls that was proposed but didn't happen - the Disarmer - is something I would not have even considered culling. A skill is far too "core" to do that to.
Use of the Disarmer as a highly valuable pickup skill is perhaps the most obvious: if there's a row of traps that can't be build over or bashed under, you need a Disarmer. Place the pickup somewhere difficult to get to, and it suddenly becomes the key to unlocking the level.
For starters - what happens with the inbetween pixels? For example - a faller moves down 3 pixels per frame. A jumper could make a total of up to 6 "one pixel horizontal or vertical" movements in a single frame - and possibly more vertical movement at the end under specific conditions when hitting a wall as a climber / close to the top.I specifically mentioned a 4x4 block of terrain, not a single pixel. That's why I was surprised you'd mention the jumper specifically; does it move more than 4 pixels horizontally or vertically in a single frame? For example, a vector of (3,4) or (4,3) pixels would still be fine with the blocks connecting to each other and being walkable. (Of course, it doesn't have to be 4x4: I chose it because 4 pixels high would ensure lemmings following the main lemming would not get stuck in its terrain). Implementation-wise I would have thought you'd just cache the last (say) 3 or 4 positions of the lemming, and then place the block in the location the lemming was 3 or 4 frames ago, which would make sure the lemming wouldn't bump into its own terrain unless it's moving slower than 1 pixel per frame or changing direction.
But the thing that really set off alarm bells for me here is the fact that the placed terrain could interfere with the lemming's own movement. Of course, ideally, it wouldn't, but special handling would be needed to ensure that - especially in cases where it might affect future frames.
In fact, I'm pretty sure if we exclude Kieran's levels (just to get a sense of how other people designed their levels), the remaining custom L2 levels in this forum either never used the bazooka/mortar, or maybe at most one or two levels did. At least that's how I remember it, feel free to correct me though.I remember making "Friendly Fire", but that exclusively relied on the knockback effect of the bazooka. I believe you can use the bazooka/mortar also to pop balloons, but that obviously wouldn't be a concern in NL.
Haha, that's what I was talking about in my first post in this thread. :PQuoteThis seems more to me like an argument against any further new skills than against the Slider specifically.I am also totally fine with that to be honest! ;)
The Disarmer is a skill that, whilst it basically only has 1 use, actually has a great deal of puzzle potential:...
...It's a great skill. And I'm not just saying that because of the cute little hi-viz vest I gave it. ;P OK, maybe a little...
QuoteThis seems more to me like an argument against any further new skills than against the Slider specifically.QuoteI am also totally fine with that to be honest! ;)
Haha, that's what I was talking about in my first post in this thread.
Second, this idea of "mental pathfinding" will again mainly affect people who like to plan the entire level in advance before even allowing the hatch to open. :P Let's say I do have empathy for people adhering to this philosophy... but not a lot of patience, in the sense that I often don't see how the rules of the game should bow to this "demand".
Three years on, can we please just give this a rest? Nepster put a ton of work into NeoLemmix as well as being one of the best level designers in the community. I wouldn't still be using NL at all without his work on giving us a decent editor. I don't know where he is now or why he hasn't been around (and as far as I know, none of us do), but I miss him, I hope he's okay and I'd love to see him come back. It's a gross insult that you only seem to remember him as the guy who culled stuff.
First it sounds great, it's a tank that can float over water and is immune to mind-control units. The speciality is that it needs a connection to a robot control center, if that is cut by low power or by the destruction of the center it deactivates.
Great addition, right? In reality the tank never gets used though.
[. . .]
The slider is our robot tank.
- It's too similar compared to the effect of alrerady existent skills, much more and more easily than the other contenders, as stated and showed time and time again.
I critisize it and I love thinking! I just hate unnessesary thinking!
There you have it, but we keep on cheering for every new idea that has even the tiniest of usages that is popping up here and amplify the problem. That's also why the final version needs to happen soon!
The game is getting very close to being completely overloaded and the danger of fearing away new players with all the stuff is growing rapidly.
The option is always there, we've got way more than enough content! The jumper is being introduced and yet another object type is being considered.
Here you deny reality again. NL follows the philosophy that this is possible!
Take a read and maybe don't be so dismissive at other people about mental pathfinding.
And anyway, I actually feel far less strongly than Simon about mental-pathfinding the slider. While it is true that it may take slightly more mental effort to account for the constant turning when planning out a (permanent-skill version of) slider's path, it is at best a weak negative. It's not super-hard to do so.
And in fact, IchoTolot himself has now put forward the "frequency of use" argument that he dismissed before.
While you might not see a lot of opportunities to use the Slider, several other forum members have already stated they would use it a lot. So I think it's apparent that this worry, on a forum-wide level, is unjustified.
Stated, not shown. ;) This is not an objective fact, but merely your opinion, as is the opposite stance on our side.
From our point of view, this similarity that you keep criticising about the Slider is precisely what would allow the skill to fit in organically with the rest.
To prevent them from being overwhelmed, new forum members can easily be pointed to less complex packs first that only use a fraction of the existing features - like Lemmings Migration and NepsterLems.
You object to too much new stuff being added to NeoLemmix since that would make it harder for newer players to memorise everything....
..As Dullstar pointed out, your position could rather be interpreted as objecting to any new skill at all at this point. If that is your position, it's fine to have, but it seems like the majority is definitely in favour of at least any new skill being introduced. One new user being overwhelmed by the amount of existing features doesn't override this majority opinion.
could rather be interpreted as objecting to any new skill at all at this point. If that is your position,
QuoteThe Disarmer is a skill that, whilst it basically only has 1 use, actually has a great deal of puzzle potential:...
...It's a great skill. And I'm not just saying that because of the cute little hi-viz vest I gave it. ;P OK, maybe a little...
And this is exactly I was thinking about when I meant we are clapping for every idea now regardless of its actual usefulness and just keep on considering and adding more without thinking about complexity at all.
QuoteThis seems more to me like an argument against any further new skills than against the Slider specifically.QuoteI am also totally fine with that to be honest! ;)QuoteHaha, that's what I was talking about in my first post in this thread.
The option is always there, we've got way more than enough content! The jumper is being introduced and yet another object type is being considered.
So now it bringing very little new to the table is an advantage? You keep on twisting the arguments to be in your favor regardless the direction they are pointing at.
QuoteTo prevent them from being overwhelmed, new forum members can easily be pointed to less complex packs first that only use a fraction of the existing features - like Lemmings Migration and NepsterLems.Are you really sure you recommended the right packs there?
You ignored the second part of that statement where I explicitly said that those packs are too difficult for beginners. My argument was that pack difficulty is a much larger obstacle for beginners than a large variety of skills and features.[/b] Yet, the people who restrain themselves to classic 8 skills tend to be the most adept puzzle solvers, so the levels they create are on the more challenging side.
What we could use would be an introduction pack that just adds a few more skills, maybe the Jumper and the Walker, or the Jumper and the Shimmier. The rest would be the classic 8. Regarding objects, such a pack could also selectively introduce some - for example teleporters - and use those on several levels, rather than using many different skills and objects, but only once each. This would give the player time to familiarise themselves with e.g. the Jumper, the Shimmier, and teleporters before they move on to the next pack that includes some more stuff.
So do you: You criticise the Slider for not bringing enough new things to the table, and at the same time for supposedly being too complex with what it does add.
(splat-height survival, holding on to walls, turning around, transitioning from a wall-state (Climber) to a Shimmier or Jumper).
For Sliders specifically, any workaround to transition into a Shimmier after a drop is bound to include a Stoner.
Likewise, when you try to emulate the Slider turning, you either need to use one-way fields - but those affect all lemmings walking / falling through them, whereas one of the Slider's greatest powers is making him walk into the opposite direction than everyone else - or Walkers. And Walkers once again are a very powerful, if not the most powerful NeoLemmix skill, because they can cancel any other skill and turn around lemmings simply anywhere.
As long as we agree that the solutions the Slider would offer are interesting in principle.
You ignored the second part of that statement where I explicitly said that those packs are too difficult for beginners. My argument was that pack difficulty is a much larger obstacle for beginners than a large variety of skills and features. Yet, the people who restrain themselves to classic 8 skills tend to be the most adept puzzle solvers, so the levels they create are on the more challenging side.
Of course I know which new skills IchoTolot supports, and that this means he is not against a 20th skill in general. It just seems to me like he would rather have no new skill at all than having the Slider? ;) Meaning: Would you prefer to have the advantage of fewer new skills to learn for new players, than having the Slider for those who want to use it and simply not use it yourself? I'm asking this as a genuine question.
Lemmings is about indirect control. Alter the terrain to shape the path, or you become a blocker to shape other lemmings' paths. The lemming does things that affect other lemmings.
I rather even add a skill that is also partly redundant, but is very easy to use with not as much direct combination methods.
Okay, let's address this whole "too parkour" issue for once.
Why would we need any further terrain-modification skills if these already fulfil 95% of required jobs? ;) Simply because "we haven't had one in a while"? Do we need skills to fulfil a quota, or to inspire level designers to use them in unique and creative ways?
This idea that parkour levels are somehow bad in general to me seems to be the latest iteration of "pioneer levels are boring / second-class levels", resting on the idea that containing the crowd and having just single worker lemmings create the path makes the level too easy, compared to e.g. flow-control solutions. In turn, I personally regard flow-control levels as fiddly levels with execution difficulty.
If however we can agree that pioneer levels will and should always be a major part of Lemmings, then I think the sky is the limit for how "parkour-like" the path of the pioneers can get: The important part is that the crowd can take a path carved through terrain at the end
I'm personally very much in favour of the idea of the occasional parkour-style level, anything that brings more variety to the table is a good thing in my book.
Ask yourself, which of these two packs would you rather play:
Pack 1 - VarietyLems
Level 1 - An easy but interesting level with 20 of each skill
Level 2 - A parkour-style level with lots of Climbing, Jumping, Shimmying and Swimming to get around various obstacles
Level 3 - A level where the objective is to get all of the lemmings through a teleporter
Level 4 - A moderately difficult 1-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 5 - A level with a splat hatch in which a puzzle must be solved to make the fall safe and save every lemming
Level 6 - A multiple-exit level based on floaters and gliders, and how they can get to different places around the level
Level 7 - A very difficult 2-of-each level
Level 8 - An enormous multi-hatch level with a tight time limit and only 1 exit
Pack 2 - SimiLems
Level 1 - A moderately difficult 3-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 2 - A moderately difficult 2-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 3 - A moderately difficult 2-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 4 - A difficult 2-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 5 - A difficult 1-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 6 - A difficult 1-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 7 - A very difficult 1-of-each-skill puzzle level
Level 8 - A very difficult 1-of-each-skill puzzle level
I know which my choice would be, anyway. ;P
Now for another idea:
The (Jet) Dasher
The ideal pack would be to take most of the first one, then throw out the rubbish ideas like the "huge, multi hatch, one minute time limit" level and replace them with more of the good types that it contains.
On the other hand, if it really came down to "take one of these exactly as it is", then the second is nonetheless the better option.
I made my point, though: variety is a good thing. Even if you don't like a particular kind of level, chances are someone else will. A pack containing something for everyone is more likely to attract more people.
My biggest worry is that in some of the cases where you need the movement rather than the terrain, it will seem like just a reskinned Jumper
People have such divergent tastes that if you try to cater to everyone, the result could be pleasing no-one.
For instance, your Level 3, "A level where the objective is to get all of the lemmings through a teleporter", is setting off warning bells in my mind -- it could be done well... or one level that's especially bad, and it doesn't matter how good the rest are, I probably won't experience them because I've already put this down and am playing another pack instead.
I still like the Slider a bit more
However, all the remaining candidates are very close to each other in my eyes, so I really wish we weren't limited to only choosing one.
Agreed: maybe if there's equal consensus on the Slider and a ranged contruction/destruction skill (I'm now thinking the Jet Dasher/Surfboarder is clearly the best of these), we could get both...?
if one of the main use cases is to create terrain, wouldn't the countdown timer undo that by destroying the terrain you just created? That would lead to fiddly levels where you have to use the terrain while it's still in existence.
I'd much rather have destruction as a separate skill -- I'd be extremely happy if the eventual outcome is "Slider, Jetboarder, and slanted Laser Blaster all get added"
What was the argument for the slanted-Laser-Blaster idea again? I don't see how it's any different from a Fencer...
Easier Levels <------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> Harder Levels
Fun Tricky Taxing Mayhem Easy Custom LevelMy opinion on the whole parkour thing is - levels shouldn't be deriving their difficulty from finnicky execution of such parts. However, I don't see anything wrong with them simply being options to get a lemming places. The challenge simply needs to come from figuring out that route, not from executing it.
I guess this might be somewhere that NL and Lix differ a bit in philosophy - both agree that the puzzle, not the execution, should be the difficulty; but Lix's ideal philosophy (with some non-conforming elements retained due to tradition / existing content) seems to be "the puzzle is manipulating the terrain, the lixes are a tool for doing so", whereas NeoLemmix's is "the puzzle is manipulating the lemmings, altering the terrain is one thing that can be achieved via this". Obviously, both of these are oversimplifications, but I do get the feeling there's a slight divide along these lines.
It would essentially allow the jetboarding lemming to gain a temporary platform which would then explode, leaving a bomber-shaped hole
Firstly, it's steeper. Simon's proposal is 2 pixels up for 1 across (compared to the fencer's 1 up for 2 across), but it could be even steeper than this. That makes it more akin to a reverse digger, paralleling the fencer being a reverse miner. Sometimes you need a way to get lemmings down from high above, or create a tunnel to get the worker lemming up.
Secondly, the laser blaster goes through air as well as terrain. It can reach places that are completely out of reach for a fencer or the proposed tunneller. One example is to make a dent in a wall, like making a bomber crater from a distance; it wouldn't be bomber shaped, but it would make a dent that would serve a similar purpose of allowing a climber to stop halfway up a wall. (It would also synergise well with the slider, which makes it more of a shame we can't have both.) Another example is to make a dent in a ceiling, to stop shimmiers in a desired location.
The Blacksmith. This lemming creates a piece of steel, 8 pixels in height. As such, he can be used like a Stacker, but just like with the Stacker-Stoner distinction, there are some subtle differences. For example, the Blacksmith can be used to stop destructive skills from continuing, turning the lemming performing the destructive skill around in the process ("tanking on steel", as it's often done with Miners). The steel piece he creates could also be shaped in an irregular way, much like the Stoner, to prevent Climbers from going over it, thereby increasing the differences to the Stacker.
As a very vague idea that might not lead anywhere - what about some kind of constructive skill where the created terrain is steel; or alternatively, a skill that turns a section of regular terrain into steel.
I guess this might be somewhere that NL and Lix differ a bit in philosophy - both agree that the puzzle, not the execution, should be the difficulty; but Lix's ideal philosophy (with some non-conforming elements retained due to tradition / existing content) seems to be "the puzzle is manipulating the terrain, the lixes are a tool for doing so", whereas NeoLemmix's is "the puzzle is manipulating the lemmings, altering the terrain is one thing that can be achieved via this". Obviously, both of these are oversimplifications, but I do get the feeling there's a slight divide along these lines.
Lemmings is about setting up lemmings to alter terrain from the correct spot as much as it is about altering the terrain itself.
because the worker lemmings creating the path would be Walkers like everyone else. Thus, they couldn't reach any spots that the crowd couldn't reach, which would greatly limit puzzle potential.
If you think the Slider doesn't add a lot of new things: Why would we need any further terrain-modification skills if these already fulfil 95% of required jobs? ;) Simply because "we haven't had one in a while"?
My propositions of upward Diggers and downward Builders was met by some with the valid question of whether we actually need to be able to modify terrain in every possible way,
but apparently there were good reasons why movement skills where preferred by the majority.
If however we can agree that pioneer levels will and should always be a major part of Lemmings
This idea that parkour levels are somehow bad in general to me seems to be the latest iteration of "pioneer levels are boring / second-class levels"
And there are 8 pure movement: 5 permanent, plus walker, jumper, shimmier. More than enough.
By contrast, the poster of a fresh design must expect, at worst, complete rejection of an idea that they spent time on.
[/li][/list]
Only when a design, really the design alone, convinces the reader by its own strength, then one has an argument.
the jetboarder... it's at its heart the spear thrower with fixed angle, the simplemost angle really, and movement of the asignee along with the spear. Thus, the jetboarder's complexity is similar to most other recent inventions.
If a skill is assignable to a lemming on even ground, and the resulting animation gives a good hint on what the skill might do, that's good... The least-discoverable skill in L1 is probably the basher, but even the basher is swinging at the air for a full stroke.
I'd have thought that the Climber and Floater would have been the least discoverable
Discussion of the Lix walker (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3337.0)
For the avoidance of doubt, this poll will not be the final determiner of which skill is chosen. It's more just to see if any of the strong contenders has significantly less interest than the others.
for the most part, it looks like this is going to come down to Slider vs Laser-Blaster vs Projectiles (with the "projectiles" possibly being one destructive + one constructive)
The kid in me wants to play with the Laser Blaster.
The Magic: The Gathering player in me is always out for value and sees Projectiles (destructive + constructive) as a "2 for 1" 8-) .
And the level designer in me (as well as the part that says I should stick to my word) keeps supporting the Slider.
how about the final new skill be a lemming that can reveal hidden elements such as stacked elements (ie hatches). Haha just kidding.
I would like to see a downward diagonal builder since we have an upward diagonal one and a horizontal one(platformer).
there have been times I wanted one availaible when trying to make my version of Angry Lemming
Some of the discussion makes me kind of opposed to the idea of having it be the final new skill. The surviving three could all arguably be good ideas, but one must be chosen and the others discarded.
If I were to rule one of the ideas out, I'd rule out the projectile skills. For every other skill, the skill shadows and sketches are an assist feature, but I think the projectile arc would make the skill shadows and sketches a must have for using it.
Do you think we can narrow it down to a contest between these three now?
for instance, Slider>Jumper would have to be possible for it to be a worthwhile skill
The pairing is currently framed as "one creative, one destructive projectile", but we could potentially interpret it more liberally as "one creative, one destructive ranged skill".
Which skills are the current contenders? I believe it was the Slider, Laser Blaster, and the projectile constructive/destructive skills. Is that correct?
Based on the previous post, I take it it will be one build per skill, not one build containing all of the skills?
While you've made your point very clear about full packs, what would you think about a ~5-10 level minipack for the purposes of trying the skill in levels?
At this point I have also made a decision - I will not be limiting it to just one of the skills getting in. With that being said, that doesn't mean it's a guaranteed "every one of them gets in" either; they will still each need to be shown to be worthy of inclusion. I have my predictions about which ones will or won't make it at this point (vague hint: it's more than one, but not all)
would certainly have ideas for both the Slider and the Laser Blaster (and yes, even the interaction, though that couldn't be tested until / unless indeed both were to make it into a stable version of NL). But of course, I don't want to create a bunch of levels for a skill that just barely ends up not making it - and then we'd end up precisely with the situation you want to avoid.
Especially now that we have some "completionist" new forum members who like to go back in history and dig up every possible tiny pack ever made, and play it on whatever obscure engine is required to open it. :P Of course, I in particular am someone whose packs have greatly benefited from those people, so I certainly won't complain about their "completionism". :evil:
But those are precisely the types of users who I can imagine keeping an old experimental version around just to play these "bonus skill" levels. And if there are players around for such levels, someone might think of creating them deliberately... not me, of course, I would never (no longer) do such a thing...
I DO NOT want to see people releasing packs that "require the Slider experimental build" or whatever in the future.
Are these demo levels just supposed to test the mechanics?
Or do they also have to prove in some way that the skill is worth introducing in the first place?
If I want to convince those people the skill is still worthwhile, I'd have to deliberately design non-parkour levels featuring the Slider, and using it in different ways.
Although I assume that some of the opposition to the Slider might evaporate now if there is a clear chance that the Slider won't be the only final skill, and therefore won't automatically take up the slot of something else.
The latter would be the crucial point, because if you're going to make the effort of programming all the contenders anyway, why would we actively remove one of them again at a later point?
If what im hearing is correct then I'm glad to see that its more than one skill getting in.
Does that include the Jetboarder with its single vote? :D
Based on the poll results, I've been assuming we're only talking about Laser Blaster, Slider, and destructive and creative projectiles. In other words, that the Jetboarder is out.
I voted "as soon as they're ready," but I'm thinking that mostly I think they shouldn't be released all at once. Instead, what I'm thinking is that we should focus on each one individually, instead of having several experimentals floating around at the same time.
EDIT: just as a naughty aside, maybe if all 4 of the new skills get implemented (bringing the total to 23), perhaps Turbo Lemming could make an appearance to bring the total to an even 24! (jk) ;P
The thrower seems nice though maybe a bit fiddly due to custom aiming
I'm not really a fan of the bomb thrower, again fiddly due to custom aiming and feels out of place
That begs the question though: If you've already done all the work anyway, including taking care of all interactions between those four new skills (which wouldn't have been the case with separate experimentals) - what's stopping us from just keeping them all at this point?