Author Topic: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)  (Read 3779 times)

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Offline IchoTolot

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Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« on: April 03, 2022, 11:41:00 AM »
All zips only need to be unzipped inside the main folder of your NeoLemmix Player!

NeoLemmix Level Pack: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qfv801qd7tb0e8z/Contest_25.zip?dl=1

Music: https://www.dropbox.com/s/gvcat4hmax02pzn/Contest_25_Music.zip?dl=1

Styles + Sounds (I think these are already in the NL styles download but just to be sure...): https://www.dropbox.com/s/mkclusygig310d2/Contest_25_Styles.zip?dl=1

Rule 1 Levels

Armani's "Insert Coin, Choose Lemming" (V1)
Dire Krow's "Infiltration" (V1)
IchoTolot's "The Four Corners Of Cloud Seven" (V1)
Kingshadow3's "No Other Lemming's Gonna Do That!" (V2)
The Tomato Watcher's "Lemsicle" (V2)
WillLem's "It's All A Matter Of Spacing" (V1)
kaywhyn's "Sports-tacular Athletic Rescue Mission" (V3)


Rule 2 Levels

Apjjm's "Roiling Clouds" (V1)
Armani's "Tightrope Planet" (V2)
Crane's "Looks simple enough..." (V1)
DireKrow's "Steep Bee-scent" (V1)
IchoTolot's "Decent Default Design" (V2)
Kingshadow3's "Atmospheric Breach" (V2)
tan x dx's "Not much to work with..." (V5)
The Tomato Watcher's "A Roundabout Trip" (V5)
WillLem's "Minimalemism" (V1)
kwywhyn's "The 10 Piece Puzzle Rush" (V3)


Rule 3 Levels

Apjjm's "A Digital Switchover" (V4)
Armani's "Underwater Hijackers" (V1)
Dire Krow's "Ancient Lemmarine" (V2)
IchoTolot's "Starlight Pinball Zone" (V1)
Kingshadow3's "Mad Dad's Chemical Research Dept." (V2)
tan x dx's "The Treachery of Lemmings" (V1)
The Tomato Watcher's "The Claaaaaw..." (V1)
WillLem's "Bosom Buddies" (V1)
kaywhyn's "The Lemming Calculator" (V10)


You can check the rules details again here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5914.0

Playing Phase will be closed on 31th of May! (A bit longer due to LOTY overlapping a bit)
Updates will close on 28th of May!


Note: This topic is for posting your comments, replays, etc for the levels. If you wish to post an update to your level, or enter a late submission, please do so in the Updates Topic instead.

Link to update topic
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 09:57:52 PM by IchoTolot »

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2022, 11:50:40 AM »
Ok, already had a late entry while creating the topic - kaywhyn's levels have been added! ;)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2022, 08:24:58 PM »
Updated the music zip as I forgot the music files for The Tomato Watcher's levels, be sure to redownload! :)

Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2022, 02:41:44 AM »
Managed to solve 2 R2 levels tonight, but one of them felt like a backroute.

WillLem's "Minimalemism" (click to show/hide)


Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2022, 03:03:08 AM »
@The Tomato Watcher:

Thanks for the replay for my R2. Yup, that's a backroute. For V2, I've adjusted the time limit, so this will probably force the intended solution I have in mind now :P
« Last Edit: April 04, 2022, 03:11:25 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2022, 03:46:37 AM »
@kaywhyn How's this? Quite satisfying to figure out, especially
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
:thumbsup:

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2022, 04:04:20 AM »
@The Tomato Watcher:

Getting closer, but not quite what I had in mind. Not really noticeable, but for V3 a slight shift in the terrain, but still shouldn't be a problem for you.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2022, 04:21:31 AM »
@kaywhyn Hope I've got it now, it certainly felt more challenging.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2022, 04:34:24 AM »
@The Tomato Watcher:

Intended! :thumbsup:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2022, 08:32:49 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2022, 04:32:09 PM »
played through all rule1 levels. 8-)
They all probably are not quite intended :sick: other than Icho's level which is I'm pretty sure open-ended.
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0

Offline DireKrow

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2022, 07:41:21 PM »
played through all rule1 levels. 8-)
They all probably are not quite intended :sick: other than Icho's level which is I'm pretty sure open-ended.

For my level... it's much closer to the intended solution than you think! You solved all of the 'problems' you were intended to solve, and used most of the skills in the places you were intended to use them... you just did it in a way that takes a lot longer and was slightly more complicated, but saves a skill as a result.

I think I'm okay with leaving this as an alternate solution. I'd rather err on the side of keeping it a little more open-ended, to make it more accessible to people. Plus it provides a way to solve it without having to multitask, which I think people will appreciate.

If I really wanted to block this solution, then adding a 2:30 timer is something I could do. It would fit the level too, since some base infiltration have to be done under time pressure, after all ;P But I don't feel the need to do that yet. Another option I'll consider is to make beating it in <2:30 into a talisman.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2022, 08:09:06 PM by DireKrow »
LOTY 2020 Winner
My NeoLemmix Levels: The Krow Files (File A v1.2 released 21-Feb-2020)

Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2022, 08:10:49 PM »
@Armani Welp, that's frustrating.

Here's Why (click to show/hide)

V2 is out now and should hopefully render that route impossible.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2022, 05:06:33 AM »
@Armani

Ugh, I can't believe I missed the obvious backroute in those two places at the very start for my R1. They were definitely oversights on my part, but at the same time that's what I get for waiting til very close to the end of the submission phase and not doing enough testing on my own levels :XD: For V2, I've added terrain and OWAs. Hopefully that blocks out other alternatives, but let's see how it holds up now!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2022, 06:30:53 AM »
resolved updated levels :D Both seem good now :thumbsup:
Lemsicle (click to show/hide)
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2022, 06:51:28 AM »
@Armani

Different from the intended solution, but this is also a really awesome solution that uses all the skills that I think this is a perfectly acceptable alternative.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2022, 07:13:18 AM »
Spot on, Armani! Very nicely done! :thumbsup:

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2022, 07:44:31 AM »
and here're my solutions to all rule2s !
I don't smell any major backroutes this time.
Roiling Clouds (click to show/hide)
Looks simple enough... (click to show/hide)
Steep Bee-scent (click to show/hide)
Decent Default Design (click to show/hide)
Not much to work with... (click to show/hide)
A Roundabout Trip (click to show/hide)
Minimalemism (click to show/hide)
The 10 piece Puzzle Rush (click to show/hide)
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2022, 08:07:47 AM »
@Armani:

R2 - Intended! :thumbsup:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2022, 08:08:51 AM »
Cheeky backroute there Armani, but luckily it was a very easy fix. And yeah, I'm glad I dug up these last few official styles from Lemmings Tribes, as they have some real potential, certainly more than can be showcased by 10 terrain pieces. ;P

Offline DireKrow

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2022, 08:26:28 AM »
I talked about it on the discord, but I'll put here too for the record. Armani's solution to my R2 level is acceptable. It saves a skill, but honestly... I'm weighing up the idea of making Armani's solution the canonical one and officially removing that saved skill from the level.
LOTY 2020 Winner
My NeoLemmix Levels: The Krow Files (File A v1.2 released 21-Feb-2020)

Offline Apjjm

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2022, 11:11:25 AM »
@Armani

Intended solution :)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My Level Packs: Quartet

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2022, 04:38:24 PM »
@Armani

That's a backroute for my level! It seems kind of obvious now that you've pointed it out... :P

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2022, 04:59:10 PM »
@Armani

While R1 is totally fine and open ended, R2 needs a fix as this is very unintended in quite a few parts, but lukily I still have 2 Object slots open for some OWWs. ;)

Offline Crane

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2022, 12:38:06 AM »
@Armani: Intended solution - well done.  I'm glad you think my level is cute!

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2022, 01:40:19 AM »
I Solved Armani's Rule 1 level. 

replay attached

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2022, 04:24:41 AM »
100% Intended :thumbsup: Nice job!
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2022, 04:44:40 AM »
And the final rank 8-)
A Digital Switchover (click to show/hide)
Ancient Lemmarine (click to show/hide)
Starlight Pinball Zone (click to show/hide)
The Treachery of Lemmings (click to show/hide)
The Claaaaaw... (click to show/hide)
Bosom Buddies (click to show/hide)
The Lemming Calculator (click to show/hide)
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2022, 07:32:10 AM »
@Armani

R3: Ugh, that's a backroute, and I'm not sure how I missed that. This is what I get for not testing any of my levels extensively enough before the playing phase started :forehead: For V2, I have added a trap and shifted the terrain a bit. Let's see how the level holds up now!

Thanks for the compliments on the design, although honestly this is probably the laziest approach anyone can take in level designing, as everything in the Chalkboard tileset happens to be provided for me to be able to design the object very easily. As I'm very bad at art myself and can't draw for the life of me, naturally I would want to make the process of designing the object as easy as possible for myself, and the Chalkboard style happens to do a lot of it for me already :P

Also, notice the equations I've sprinkled around in the level, as well as the erroneous fact of Pi at the top, though that is a quote from a TV show :P
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline DireKrow

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2022, 07:45:53 AM »
Your first replay of my R3 level was exactly the intended solution. The second replay is a backroute. Will fix that tomorrow.
LOTY 2020 Winner
My NeoLemmix Levels: The Krow Files (File A v1.2 released 21-Feb-2020)

Offline Apjjm

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2022, 11:00:28 AM »
@Armani - As you suspected, the R3 solution is a backroute - I will post an update later today with a fix to that pillar area.
My Level Packs: Quartet

Offline Apjjm

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2022, 08:45:32 PM »
Here are my solutions for rule 1 - the levels were great fun to solve, nicely done to the level creators :thumbsup:

1-Insert Coin Choose Lemming
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

2-Infiltration
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

3-The Four Corners Of Cloud Seven
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

4-No Other Lemmings Gonna Do That
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

5-Lemsicle
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

6-Its All A Matter Of Spacing
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

7-Sports-tacular Athletic Rescue Mission
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My Level Packs: Quartet

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2022, 10:54:42 PM »
@Apjjm - You played an older version of my R1, and hence your replay doesn't work for the current version. I was confused why it wasn't working, but I figured out that it's for V1. Even with V2, I'm sure you'll get it solved just the same :)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Apjjm

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2022, 11:53:13 PM »
I have re-solved your rule 1,  hopefully this one is acceptable :)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My Level Packs: Quartet

Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2022, 03:48:36 AM »
Great job to both Armani and Apjjm!

Armani, your solution to my R3 isn't what I had in mind, but since it uses all (non-decorative) skills, accomplishes most of the same tasks as I intended, just in different ways, and is overall clever in its own right, it's a perfectly acceptable alternate solution! :thumbsup: (Also, it's supposed to depict two claw machines, but I definitely didn't do the best job with that.)

Apjjm, your solution to my R1 is spot on! And thanks for the couple nice things you had to say; my R1's definitely the level I'm most proud of this contest. :D

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2022, 04:34:43 AM »
@Apjjm
Intended :thumbsup:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2022, 09:39:25 AM »
@Armani and @Apjjm

While I thought to say both of your solutions are acceptable, the way Apjjm used the shimmiers I worry that they can be used to cheese the level somehow. So, instead of making alternatives viable, I have decided for V3 to maybe force towards the intended solution with some OWAs I added. So, especially to Armani, sorry to break your solution there which I said was acceptable before :XD: I feel they'll make the solution too obvious now, but once again I might be proven wrong there :P
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2022, 09:45:34 AM »
@Armani Intended solution for my R3! :thumbsup:

@Apjjm Totally acceptable solution, but there are indeed ways to solve it without the step-through/interrupting technique. ;)

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2022, 09:54:47 AM »
Sorry for posting again so soon after posting V3 of my R1, but I didn't realize V2 of my R3 wasn't included yet. My mistake there, I should had checked before I posted in the update topic earlier this hour. I have now included the file to download in the update topic
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Apjjm

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2022, 02:18:37 PM »
I have attached my solutions to all of the rule 2 levels. This was quite a challenging rule to design a level around, yet all the levels here have been fun to play and solve.

1-Roiling Clouds (V1)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

2-Tightrope Planet (V1)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

3-Looks simple enough... (V1)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

4-Steep Bee-scent (V1)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

5-Decent Default Design (V2)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

6-Atmospheric Breach (V1)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

7-Not much to work with... (V2)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

8-A Roundabout Trip (V2)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

9-Minimalemism (V1)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

10-The 10 Piece Puzzle Rush (V3)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My Level Packs: Quartet

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2022, 03:47:41 PM »
@Apjjm

Intended solution! :thumbsup:  And the "nearly" was exactly what I wanted to block.

I totally agree with the nitpck here! I really need those few extra tiles though to either make the steel thinner or the floor thicker. This will indeed be the first thing I do to this level when including it in a pack! ;)

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2022, 03:53:00 PM »
@Apjjm

R2: Intended! :thumbsup:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline DireKrow

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2022, 07:46:20 PM »
Apjjm's solution to my R1 was entirely acceptable.

The solution to my R2 is very different to Armani and I's... but it does still use every skill, so I'll tentatively keep it as an alternate solution. I'm satisfied with my R1 and R2 being relatively open-ended.
LOTY 2020 Winner
My NeoLemmix Levels: The Krow Files (File A v1.2 released 21-Feb-2020)

Offline Kingshadow3

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2022, 10:06:53 PM »
@Apjjm

Both of your solutions to my levels are backroutes but I've made easy fixes to them.

Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2022, 03:09:00 AM »
@Apjjm As much as I hate to be "that guy," I made a V3 for my R2. I spent quite a while debating over whether to accept your solution or not, because it's really not that far off, but while it is decently clever in its own right, it misses just enough of the tricks I intended that I decided to update the level. Sorry :(

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2022, 06:14:49 AM »
@Apjjm not quite intended :( I moved the force field a bit to the right so you cannot release the blocker and break the floor with a single miner anymore.

I resolved all the updated levels ;)
Decent Default Design (click to show/hide)
Not much to work with (click to show/hide)
A Roundabout Trip (click to show/hide)
A Digital Switchover (click to show/hide)
The Lemming Calculator (click to show/hide)
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

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Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2022, 07:11:31 AM »
@Armani

R3: Oh, you sneak :( It's definitely difficult to backroute fix from the likes of you. For V3, I've shifted the far left rope trap over to the right slightly, as well as replaced one of the rope traps with a fire trap. Solution will likely become more obvious now, but probably more precise than I wanted it to be at the same time :P
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
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Offline Apjjm

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2022, 08:50:28 PM »
@Armani - this is quite a nice solution but still avoids some of the things I ideally would like to see in a solution, so will probably be updating the level a little more.
My Level Packs: Quartet

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2022, 07:54:24 PM »
@Armani

One solution is exactly intended and the other an acceptable alternative. Good job! :thumbsup:

Sadly to remove that precision on that one assignment I need to place additional tiles - so that is reserved for after the contest.

Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2022, 08:45:22 PM »
@Armani Still not quite. Your solution misses a few of the things I wanted you to do, and as a whole, it stems from a dumb oversight on my part. :forehead:

V4 is out now. I shifted and swapped some terrain around, and I removed one of the Climbers. My original intended solution used both, but I now realize that from V1, the second Climber is completely unnecessary, and there's no good way to enforce its usage without drastically modifying the level or adding an unnecessarily strict time limit. So it's gone! This was a much less easy fix than V2, let me tell you. :P

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2022, 06:15:14 AM »
resolved updated levels ;) (two replays for A Roundabout Trip)

A Roundabout Trip (click to show/hide)
A Digital Switchover (click to show/hide)
The Lemmings Calculator (click to show/hide)
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
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Offline Apjjm

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2022, 05:57:08 PM »
@Armani That is much closer to the intended solution, and a clever solve. I was very tempted to keep this but it feels just far enough away that I have updated things again :evil:. I think this update makes things a bit harder so am thinking about dropping save requirement down to 54 + adding talisman for 55, will think about this.

Potential spoiler on intended solution (but pretty vague)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My Level Packs: Quartet

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2022, 05:29:46 AM »
Well, the update made the level a bit harder but now I have more leftover skill :evil:
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

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Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2022, 05:30:58 AM »
@Armani

R3: Getting closer but not quite there yet, as you correctly guessed. For V4, I shifted the pi symbol over, as well as the trapdoor that's to the right of the flamethrower over some more, although the main source of the backroute was the pi symbol. I still don't have a hopeful feeling that this will finally enforce what I have in mind, but let's see. You're not that far off from the intended route, though.

Thanks so much for the compliment on this level! :thumbsup: Definitely requires far more thought on the route to take, but certainly nothing you can't handle. Thanks also for the replays and your perseverance through the multiple updates! :laugh: 
« Last Edit: April 14, 2022, 05:37:22 AM by kaywhyn »
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Offline Apjjm

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2022, 11:36:54 AM »
@Armani thanks for resolving multiple times - your solve is incredibly close to the solution I found and is certainly an acceptable variation - great solve :thumbsup:!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2022, 11:42:20 AM by Apjjm »
My Level Packs: Quartet

Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2022, 12:36:18 PM »
@Armani Second replay is indeed intended. Apparently I didn't test every possible pixel to assign the Builder on. V5 is out and should hopefully enforce all the tricks I want. :evil:

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2022, 05:41:16 AM »
two replays for The Lemmings Calculator;)
The pi symbol seems still problematic.
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
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Offline Apjjm

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2022, 12:49:26 AM »
I've attached my rule 3 solutions. I found this quite a fun rule to design for - lots of creative looking levels on this one.

1-A Digital Switchover
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

2-Underwater Hijackers
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

3-Ancient Lemmarine
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

4-Starlight Pinball Zone
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

5-Mad Dads Chemical Research Dept.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

6-The Treachery of Lemmings
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

7-The Claaaaaw...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

8-Bosom Buddies
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

9-The Lemming Calculator
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My Level Packs: Quartet

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2022, 05:43:10 AM »
@Apjjm

Perfectly acceptable :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

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Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2022, 02:57:14 PM »
@Armani
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

@Apjjm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Apologies for my delayed responses! :)

Offline Kingshadow3

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2022, 05:43:58 PM »
@Apjjm

Your solution to my rule 3 wasn't exactly intended. I've updated my level to V2.

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2022, 04:42:08 AM »
@tanx
basically same solution but I adjusted a bit to the latest version ;)
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

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Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2022, 04:12:41 AM »
@Armani and Apjjm

R3: Apologies that it took me a while to get back to either of you on your solutions to my R3, but I honestly needed to distance myself from the contest levels, my own included. I was stressing out over these solutions that are backroutes to my R3, and indeed especially in Armani's case the second solution is closer than the first, but all 3 solutions are backroutes. For V5, I've shifted some terrain around some more, as well as added a couple more flamethrowers. When in doubt, block and kill them with fire! :evil: Joking aside, once again I'm not super confident about this new version, as it's so hard to backroute fix against the likes of Armani :( With this newest update, it should be much harder to figure out how to get down safely, as almost anywhere you go the Lemmings will encounter a ka-splatty end :P Even if it still doesn't 100% force the solution I have in mind, I would think it at least gets much closer than it has been. Let's see, though. Fingers crossed :laugh:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2022, 05:19:50 AM »
@Apjjm Perfectly acceptable, and actually decently close to my original solution. :thumbsup:

I'm pretty happy with this level being somewhat open-ended, especially since (so far) it seems that no matter the route, all skills must be used; it's just where they're used that changes. And I think that's pretty cool. ;)

Offline WillLem

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #63 on: April 23, 2022, 01:41:14 AM »
Finally got around to checking replays and having a go at these levels! Note that I didn't have a massive amount to time to spend on solving, I was able to give these about 10 minutes each. Comments:

Rule 1 (click to show/hide)

@Armani @Apjjm - Your rule 1 solutions are intended. The additional Jumper is to allow for slight variations, but you both managed not to need it for your solutions. Nicely done!

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #64 on: April 23, 2022, 03:55:46 AM »
attached my new solution to the final level. :D
looks good although I'm not 100% sure
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

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  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
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Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #65 on: April 23, 2022, 05:55:31 AM »
@Armani

Getting closer again, it seems, but I can't have you shortcutting the left side the way you did, which is similar to Apjjm's solution :evil: Looks like I thought the fixes I made to one part of the level I thought would take care of that, but I will have to make sure to kill more birds with one stone instead of just focusing on one part of the level to fix when backroute fixing my own levels. For V6, more fire! It's the only change. Luckily I don't think the addition of it made the left side look too out of place, the placements of everything else just happened to already be perfect :laugh: My own intended solution does not break as well, so I didn't need to tweak anything in my replay.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
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Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2022, 01:27:01 AM »
The basic idea is similar but now I use shimmiers to actually let some lemmings shimmy something 8-)
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

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Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #67 on: April 25, 2022, 02:57:53 AM »
@Armani

R3 - Your solution is now about 98% intended. I've uploaded a V7 that I think will do the trick now. A sigma symbol is added, along with some more traps/water. I've also locked the RR to prevent any funny shenanigans you might try with it :P The number of lemmings and number to be saved were also reduced.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
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Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #68 on: April 25, 2022, 07:50:05 AM »
resolved 8-)
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #69 on: April 25, 2022, 08:09:53 AM »
Armani

R3 - This is definitely getting restless on my part. One final change for V8, which is shifted the tilde symbol over, added more flamethrowers, and made the shimmiers pickups. If it still doesn't force the solution I have in mind, then there isn't really anything else I can do to fix it up, I fear.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 08:22:35 AM by kaywhyn »
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Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #70 on: April 26, 2022, 04:02:14 AM »
This solution is very similar to what you said was 98% intended :)
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #71 on: April 26, 2022, 09:05:34 AM »
@Armani

R3: First off, let me start by apologizing for my vent in my previous post. I've just been getting very frustrated with repeatedly applying fixes and thinking I've finally got the level backroute proof, only for you to keep coming back with backroutes because I cannot backroute fix against from the likes of super talented solving people like you. As a result, my frustrations prevented me from fixing my level with a clear mind and conscience. I don't know about you experiencing these emotions whenever you need to repeatedly fix backroutes for your own levels, but this is exactly what can happen after a certain amount of different versions of the level. At least for me it gets frustrating after a while when I need to keep on fixing up a level. However, that's no reason for me to take out my anger on you. In addition, you're not the only person who has repeatedly backrouted my levels, though you do hold the record for sending me the most backroute solutions out of anyone who has played my levels. In any case, rather than get frustrated by it, I should be thankful (and I am, thank you for being persistent in resolving too) for you sending me such solutions, as it goes to show how I didn't carefully consider every approach a solver such as yourself might take to the level. It also tells me that I'm apparently not as good at backroute fixing as I thought I be, which means I should heavily consider getting someone to pre-test them or I just need to come up with better designs and solutions which aren't as prone to backrouting, as magnificent as my puzzles are. Or, learn to accept alternative solutions to my levels.

Second, I think I finally see now which skills have been the major cause of the level being plagued by backroutes. So, for V9, as much as I hate to, I made both gliders, a shimmier, and a builder pickups. I've also moved the shimmier pickup to a different location. I honestly hate using pickups myself to fix backroutes, which is why I try to avoid using them for so long, because my main concern is that they make the level easier than I intended. At the same time, I think based on feedback I've received from you for my levels, I've been proven wrong about my own levels being a lot easier in spite of the pickups.

Finally, if the intended solution is found for V9, I may consider fixing up the level visually in a future update, as some of the things that were added in earlier versions might not even be needed anymore and honestly they started making my level look more of a mess :XD:
« Last Edit: April 26, 2022, 09:21:25 AM by kaywhyn »
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Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #72 on: April 27, 2022, 05:32:32 AM »
No problem! 8-)
It also gets frustrating for me when my level gets backrouted multiple times, especially when the backroute comes from something I overlooked completely. There are several levels that come to my mind but the level that was most frustrating to fix was Yawning Crevase from Uncharted, I can't even remember how many times I had to fix + I ended up accepting the alternative solution that I really don't fond of :crylaugh: Nowadays I tend to be more generous on accepting alternative solutions if they are not lets say, totally broken. And when it comes to specific 1-solution levels, I also tend to make them with small skillset. That's the one of the reasons I admire Icho's ability to make huge size+big skillset puzzles. Look at the winner of the last contest! It's a really huge level that has big skillset and complicated solution, yet Icho somehow did succeed in enforcing the intended solution in one shot. :lem-shocked:

I attached my new solution. I think this is intended now 8-) The normal lemming falls down right after the second glider lemming puts down the first platformer stack and this feels good. Also this time I contain the right crowd so I don't have to do all the hackish timing things with canceling skills with shimmiers. ;)
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #73 on: April 27, 2022, 06:34:02 AM »
I attached my new solution. I think this is intended now 8-) The normal lemming falls down right after the second glider lemming puts down the first platformer stack and this feels good. Also this time I contain the right crowd so I don't have to do all the hackish timing things with canceling skills with shimmiers. ;)

Finally, that's 100% intended! :thumbsup: I'm happy to hear that you enjoyed my R3. Based on the feedback you gave me on Discord, I will release an update not to block your solution since it's intended now, but that will remove some things that are no longer needed, as I hate how it has now become more of a visual mess than it should be :sick: I might also think about possibly reverting some pickup changes, but I'll need to think about it some more.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote
No problem! 8-)
It also gets frustrating for me when my level gets backrouted multiple times, especially when the backroute comes from something I overlooked completely. There are several levels that come to my mind but the level that was most frustrating to fix was Yawning Crevase from Uncharted, I can't even remember how many times I had to fix + I ended up accepting the alternative solution that I really don't fond of :crylaugh: Nowadays I tend to be more generous on accepting alternative solutions if they are not lets say, totally broken. And when it comes to specific 1-solution levels, I also tend to make them with small skillset. That's the one of the reasons I admire Icho's ability to make huge size+big skillset puzzles. Look at the winner of the last contest! It's a really huge level that has big skillset and complicated solution, yet Icho somehow did succeed in enforcing the intended solution in one shot. :lem-shocked:

Ah, good to know that it isn't just me who gets frustrated after a certain point with so many versions of a level for backroute fixing. Still, as I said before that's no reason for me to take out my frustration on you, as you were very helpful in showing me different ways that it could still be backrouted that I didn't think about or consider a player might try.

Thanks again for all the replays/feedback! :thumbsup:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #74 on: May 01, 2022, 12:55:21 AM »
A hodgepodge of replays; a couple of them are most definitely backroutes.


DireKrow's "Infiltration" (click to show/hide)




Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #75 on: May 01, 2022, 03:42:41 PM »
Totally fine solution! Good job! :thumbsup:

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #76 on: May 02, 2022, 04:39:31 AM »
@The Tomato Watcher

100% Intended :thumbsup:
I'm glad this level gave you a eureka moment. I didn't expect this level to be a hit.
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #77 on: May 02, 2022, 03:42:18 PM »
@Armani

A nice variation on the intended solution. Accepted. :thumbsup:

@The Tomato Watcher

I think you're on an old version. V3 has been released which automatically breaks your solution! :P

Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #78 on: May 02, 2022, 06:22:10 PM »
@The Tomato Watcher

I think you're on an old version. V3 has been released which automatically breaks your solution! :P

I realized that, but I checked the version numbers on page 1 of this thread and it matched the version I had. But uh... that was pretty dumb and lazy of me... oops. :(

Offline DireKrow

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #79 on: May 02, 2022, 07:07:57 PM »
@Tomato

Yet another new solution for my R1. So far, everyone who has solved it (including me) has used a different solution. They're all acceptable to me because it checks the boxes I wanted to see, yours included. Nice job.
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #80 on: May 02, 2022, 07:57:56 PM »
@The Tomato Watcher

I think you're on an old version. V3 has been released which automatically breaks your solution! :P

I realized that, but I checked the version numbers on page 1 of this thread and it matched the version I had. But uh... that was pretty dumb and lazy of me... oops. :(

Well, there was no new post for the V3 update so I missed it.

As I always state in the update topic: "2. Make a new post for a new update; do not edit your most recent post." ;)   Then delete the old post.


Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #81 on: May 03, 2022, 08:10:29 PM »
4 more levels solved + a re-solve! I don't smell any backroutes here. :D

Apjjm's "Roiling Clouds" (click to show/hide)

Armani's "Tightrope Planet" (click to show/hide)


DireKrow's "Ancient Lemmarine" (click to show/hide)


Offline Apjjm

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #82 on: May 03, 2022, 09:53:36 PM »
@The Tomato Watcher

An intended solution to the level, nicely solved :thumbsup:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 01:42:57 AM by Apjjm »
My Level Packs: Quartet

Offline Armani

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #83 on: May 04, 2022, 12:42:24 AM »
@The Tomato Watcher
Awesome solution :thumbsup:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0

Offline Crane

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #84 on: May 04, 2022, 02:49:12 AM »
I'm surprised how such a simple level of mine is causing a lot of head-scratching and appreciation of the solution!

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #85 on: May 06, 2022, 08:25:53 PM »
Quote from: kaywhyn
I've just been getting very frustrated with repeatedly applying fixes and thinking I've finally got the level backroute proof, only for you to keep coming back with backroutes ... it gets frustrating after a while when I need to keep on fixing up a level

I have a rule when it comes to backroute-proofing. If I have to fix a level more than 3 times, then it's not worth it. At that point I either accept that the level cannot be easily backroute-proofed and ditch it, or keep it as a backrouteable level.

Of course, since your level is a contest level then I guess it's harder to limit the number of fixes, especially if you're going for a "one solution only" type of level. It's understandable that you want your level to play out exactly as intended. Still, there has to come a point when you have to accept that the level is probably either too convoluted or too unfixable to keep coming back with more and more versions of it.

Quote from: kaywhyn
as magnificent as my puzzles are

Even if you say so yourself! ;P

Quote from: kaywhyn
Or, learn to accept alternative solutions to my levels.

Yes! This is a way of thinking which I like to promote as much as possible. Not all levels have to be "intended solution only". Too many of these, in fact, just gets tiresome. In my book, a level which provides two or three possible solutions is more enjoyable, offers repeat play value, and is more likely to be solvable by more people. There is nothing wrong at all with designing levels with this in mind, and in fact I'd say it's a better mindset to have as a designer than the "single solution only" mentality, which often leads to levels being full of awkward and off-putting design, even if they are super clever.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 01:30:50 AM by WillLem »

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #86 on: May 07, 2022, 03:49:05 PM »
All rightie, I've updated my R3 one more time to, let's say, improve the visuals, as it started to become a mess in some areas. Here, removed some terrain and some flamethrowers. I'm also taking a big risk here with removing the glider pickups, but if the level gets broken again with future solutions I will restore them. Finally, shifted the top left hangman trap over to the right a bit.

I have a rule when it comes to backroute-proofing. If I have to fix a level more than 3 times, then it's not worth it. At that point I either accept that the level cannot be easily backroute-proofed and ditch it, or keep it as a backrouteable level.

You make a good point. However, the problem with this is that it assumes that the level's super prone to backroutes to begin with and whose solution cannot be completely enforced. How about in the case where levels can still be completely fixed up with an intended solution with, say, 4 or 5 versions? In that case, to you, do you think it's worth it to fix it up after 3 versions you limited yourself to? Maybe you've already implied that the levels whose solutions can be completely enforced are fine here and don't have to be limited to 3 versions and hence I'm probably reading into it too much. Some levels take way more versions than that before the intended is finally completely enforced as well, but again it all depends on whether one wants to accept alternatives or adapt the intended.
 
Quote
Of course, since your level is a contest level then I guess it's harder to limit the number of fixes, especially if you're going for a "one solution only" type of level. It's understandable that you want your level to play out exactly as intended. Still, there has to come a point when you have to accept that the level is probably either too convoluted or too unfixable to keep coming back with more and more versions of it.

I'm in agreement with there being a certain point where the level isn't worth it to fix up anymore, though it's sad to say that I haven't followed this just yet. Let's say that I still haven't gotten there yet with stopping after a certain point because I've often notice that eventually it just becomes a huge visual mess if one isn't careful :P

Quote
Quote from: kaywhyn
as magnificent as my puzzles are

Even if you say so yourself! ;P

Obviously this is subjective, but let's say that the problem is either in the way I've designed them, or, probably more likely, the various parts of the intended solution I have in mind that causes some of them to be constantly riddled with backroutes :P Not to mention that I still seem to be in the whole fixing one part of the backroute but neglecting another area and hence I'm not quite there with killing multiple birds with one stone just yet :laugh:

Quote
Yes! This is a way of thinking which I like to promote as much as possible. Not all levels have to be "intended solution only". Too many of these, in fact, just gets tiresome. In my book, a level which provides two or three possible solutions is more enjoyable, offers repeat play value, and is more likely to be solvable by more people. There is nothing wrong at all with designing levels with this in mind, and in fact I'd say it's a better mindset to have as a designer than the "single solution only" mentality, which often leads to levels being full of awkward and off-putting design, even if they are super clever.

Yes, I know how you're all for more variety with, say, sprinkling in open-ended levels with one solution only ones, as in the former one is free to craft up any solution that solves the level. Let me make it clear that I certainly have nothing against such levels, whether I make them or from others. Instead, I prefer making one solution only levels, although I'm training myself to make the latter too. So far, I have one completely open-ended level, my R3 from the previous contest. It's just that if I do end up making open-ended levels, I want to make them interesting ones too ;P It can be hard to make them either easy or hard but still interesting.

In any case, it's good to see and read your approach when it comes to making levels and how you backroute fix levels. Keep in mind everyone is different when it comes to either one. Again, I'm trying to break away from some of these bad habits of mine in level creating/backroute fixing, but it might take me a while.

Your input is nevertheless insightful, and certainly some key points I will keep in mind! ;)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 04:03:09 PM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline WillLem

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #87 on: May 07, 2022, 11:04:24 PM »
How about in the case where levels can still be completely fixed up with an intended solution with, say, 4 or 5 versions? In that case, to you, do you think it's worth it to fix it up after 3 versions you limited yourself to?

Good question. I guess that, conversationally, it really depends on how good a level I think it is. However, I think that what actually happens is that the barometer is lowered with each fix I have to make.

So, for example, let's say I make a level which I think is a 10/10 awesome level. It can be easily backrouted, so I make one fix which only changes the level slightly; at that point, I probably think it's more like 9.5/10. Then, oh dear, it can still be backrouted so now I have to really mess with the layout; now it's an 8/10. Another backroute means a third fix, this time forcing me to use pickups or some other drastic level-ruining measure; it's now probably no more than 5 or 6/10 after having had 3 fixes, and is likely to end up getting scrapped.

In another example, I make another 10/10 level (I must be on a roll! ;P). An easy-to-miss backroute can be just as easily fixed, so it's a 9.5/10. Another backroute means having to add a bit of steel; oh well, I can still make it look cool so it's only gone down to 9/10. Yet another backroute means a slight change to the skillset or something being moved a few pixels; I'd consider this the final fix, and the level sits pretty at 8.5/10. If it can still be backrouted, I accept that this is the case, and maybe even embrace it (make it a talisman, or even open up the level even further). This one will be kept.

The above scenarios are obviously not exact, and can happen in different ways. What I'm really illustrating is that some levels just seem to get worse and worse with more and more backroute fixes, whereas others largely remain intact with each fix. In the former example, I'll almost certainly stick to the "maximum 3 fixes" rule and scrap the level. In the latter, I might still stick to just 3 fixes and then leave it as it is, or if I do decide to keep working on it then I'll more likely go in a totally different direction with it altogether. If that happens, I almost class it as a new level rather than a new version.

Very rarely, I might provide further fixes if I reeeeally think a level is worth it. But, we're talking 1 in 100 levels as opposed to every level.

As you've said, everyone is different. There seems to be a positive correlation between solving skill and tenacity when it comes to level updates, i.e. the strongest solvers (Icho, Armani, yourself) tend to release multiple versions of their levels and will think nothing of getting to version 7, 8 or even higher. The mindset seems to be that they want to challenge the other players who are equally skilled, and so nothing other than the version which only allows the intended solution will do! (Of course, I could be totally wrong here!)

Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #88 on: May 12, 2022, 10:09:13 PM »
Some more replays! These ones had me stumped for a while. :forehead:



Armani's "Underwater Hijackers" (click to show/hide)

« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 07:06:16 PM by The Tomato Watcher »

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #89 on: May 13, 2022, 10:27:16 AM »
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
And now you've managed to solve all my 3 contest levels in intended ways.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0


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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #91 on: May 14, 2022, 01:27:33 AM »
@Ichotlot All your 3 solutions are 100% intended :thumbsup:

And I'm uploading my intended solutions and some alternative solutions I've received here for those who want ;)
Armani's Blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4994.0

My NL level pack:
  Lemmings Uncharted[Medium~Extreme]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5702
  Xmas Lemmings 2021[Easy~Very Hard]: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5876.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #92 on: May 14, 2022, 08:52:29 AM »
@Icho

Awesome! Icho has solved all of my contest levels with either intended or acceptable alternatives! :thumbsup: More specifically, R1 is an acceptable alternative, while R2 and R3 are 100% intended, with the former swapping a couple of skills around from my intended one, but it still has the essential parts of the solution in it, so no changes needed for R2 or any of my entries for that matter.


Thank you for the compliment on the visuals for my R1 :thumbsup: In addition to this, I must say that I absolutely enjoyed making the level and I love the different parts of the solution I came up with for it! I think I even like this one more than my R1 from the previous contest even though that one I'm quite proud of too. This is also the entry that got me to finally see the light on how very useful the laserer is. Even though I have played plenty of levels featuring the skill from Lemmings Uncharted, I wasn't yet convinced of its usefulness and hence still thought that it has no place in NL. However, I guess sometimes it's enough to simply make your own levels using the skill in order to see its potential! So, I have to say that I'm now in full support of the laserer skill even though it's been in stable for about a year now.





With this, thank you so much to Apjjm, Icho, and Armani for the positive feedback/compliments/replays for my levels! :thumbsup: Once again, I have Icho to thank here that I even got into level designing, as it was his encouragement to me to give it a try and without that I think I would had simply been content with just solving levels! ;P

As for everyone else, keep the replays coming, as I always love seeing more solutions to my own levels. Not to mention others trying and attempting to get them solved ;) I think I will get around to playing these levels myself in the next few days or so. Just been super busy lately.

Good question. I guess that, conversationally, it really depends on how good a level I think it is. However, I think that what actually happens is that the barometer is lowered with each fix I have to make.

So, for example, let's say I make a level which I think is a 10/10 awesome level. It can be easily backrouted, so I make one fix which only changes the level slightly; at that point, I probably think it's more like 9.5/10. Then, oh dear, it can still be backrouted so now I have to really mess with the layout; now it's an 8/10. Another backroute means a third fix, this time forcing me to use pickups or some other drastic level-ruining measure; it's now probably no more than 5 or 6/10 after having had 3 fixes, and is likely to end up getting scrapped.

In another example, I make another 10/10 level (I must be on a roll! ;P). An easy-to-miss backroute can be just as easily fixed, so it's a 9.5/10. Another backroute means having to add a bit of steel; oh well, I can still make it look cool so it's only gone down to 9/10. Yet another backroute means a slight change to the skillset or something being moved a few pixels; I'd consider this the final fix, and the level sits pretty at 8.5/10. If it can still be backrouted, I accept that this is the case, and maybe even embrace it (make it a talisman, or even open up the level even further). This one will be kept.

The above scenarios are obviously not exact, and can happen in different ways. What I'm really illustrating is that some levels just seem to get worse and worse with more and more backroute fixes, whereas others largely remain intact with each fix. In the former example, I'll almost certainly stick to the "maximum 3 fixes" rule and scrap the level. In the latter, I might still stick to just 3 fixes and then leave it as it is, or if I do decide to keep working on it then I'll more likely go in a totally different direction with it altogether. If that happens, I almost class it as a new level rather than a new version.

Very rarely, I might provide further fixes if I reeeeally think a level is worth it. But, we're talking 1 in 100 levels as opposed to every level.

I've never thought of it this way, with each fix lowering the overall quality of the level and the way you've quantified it, but I like the way you explained it here. Interestingly enough, I've kind of felt the same way with each fix as well, although some certainly way more than others, particularly the ones where I kept fixing it up rather than stop after a certain amount of versions. At the same time, I haven't yet gotten into the realm of accepting alternatives because, well, the designs I came up with don't really allow it, mostly due to the skillsets provided. However, as mentioned I have an open-ended level from the previous contest, as well as a couple here where I'm fine with alternatives, so I apparently started allowing other solutions starting with this contest! :P

Quote
As you've said, everyone is different. There seems to be a positive correlation between solving skill and tenacity when it comes to level updates, i.e. the strongest solvers (Icho, Armani, yourself) tend to release multiple versions of their levels and will think nothing of getting to version 7, 8 or even higher. The mindset seems to be that they want to challenge the other players who are equally skilled, and so nothing other than the version which only allows the intended solution will do! (Of course, I could be totally wrong here!)

I think you hit it spot on here with the ones you mentioned with being adamant of enforcing the intended solution at all costs. In my case, as I mentioned the problem is that my designs haven't really allowed for any alternatives, although some of mine in this contest do! I'll certainly be more than happy to explore and get into designs with open-ended solutions in the future, but at the same time I want to make sure they're interesting puzzle-wise. I certainly have nothing against them, and I welcome them with open arms just like I do with almost any level ;P From what I've seen and read around here, it's easy to make either an easy or hard open-ended level, but the challenge is making them interesting too!
« Last Edit: May 14, 2022, 09:34:43 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline DireKrow

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #93 on: May 14, 2022, 09:56:17 AM »
Icho's solutions to my R1 and R2 are acceptable alternatives. R3 is essentially the intended solution.
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My NeoLemmix Levels: The Krow Files (File A v1.2 released 21-Feb-2020)

Offline Crane

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #94 on: May 17, 2022, 09:25:13 PM »
Yep, intended solution IchoTolot - well done.  A nice little classic level, as you said!

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #95 on: May 22, 2022, 02:01:25 PM »
@Icho

Just seen your videos! R3 is perfectly acceptable, but R2 is a backroute. Updated version posted! :)

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #96 on: May 22, 2022, 07:37:30 PM »
Is this better? ???

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #97 on: May 25, 2022, 09:02:53 PM »
@Icho

A very interesting interaction between laserer and stacker, but still a back route, I'm afraid :)

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #98 on: May 25, 2022, 10:09:19 PM »
Next solution. :)

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #99 on: May 26, 2022, 04:23:42 PM »
@Icho

And next patch! :P

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #100 on: May 26, 2022, 08:42:18 PM »
This feels intended now. :)

Offline ∫tan x dx

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #101 on: May 26, 2022, 08:59:25 PM »
You are indeed correct! Nicely done! :thumbsup:

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #102 on: May 29, 2022, 11:16:43 AM »
All rightie, I've recorded my playthrough of all the contest levels. Here are the links:

Rule 1: https://youtu.be/60X_dAgTi4I

Rule 2: https://youtu.be/kQuhjw1cXNc

Rule 3: https://youtu.be/ZRCa12izYwE

My contest levels: https://youtu.be/iSN3ANILHss


I've also attached my entire replay collection, as well as replays of the intended solutions for my levels. There are two replays for WillLem's R3, one is for the gold/bronze talisman, while the other is for the silver talisman.

As a whole, I thought this collection pack had really tough levels in contrast to last few contests. In particular, the R3's took the longest to solve. Also, if even top solvers like Icho and Armani thought my levels were hard, perhaps I should consider dropping the notion that my own levels are easy, relatively speaking, to all the other ones. It seems that I badly underestimate the difficulties of my levels. This being said, DO NOT expect me to go easy on the difficulty if I ever decide to make a level pack in the future! :P  I think it's becoming more and more likely that I will consider making one, having been inspired and encouraged by some forum members here :thumbsup:

R1 Feedback


DireKrow's Infiltration R1V1 (click to show/hide)





R2 Feedback

Apjjm's Roiling Clouds R2V1 (click to show/hide)

Armani's Tightrope Planet R2V2 (click to show/hide)


DireKrow's Steep Beescent R2V1 (click to show/hide)




WillLem's Minimalemism R2V1 (click to show/hide)


R3 Feedback







WillLem's Bosom Buddies R3V1 (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 11:23:50 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Apjjm

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #103 on: May 29, 2022, 01:56:09 PM »
I have put together a quick video with the inteded solutions for my R2 & R3 levels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0eo9cwJ55o

@kaywhyn - Great solutions to both my R2 & R3 levels :thumbsup: - The R2 level uses the intended element in the solution and saving both the blocker & walker was nice. The R3 whilst not the intended path is certainly acceptable. The way you contained the crowds was very different to my solution, and I am pleasently surprised as to how many variations I have seen in solutions to this one.

@ichotolot - Great solves for both levels too :thumbsup:. The R2 level uses the intended element - the way you used the blocker was very similar to the initial concept of the level but I ended up adding a different skill instead to make things easier to execute. The R3 solution again much like kaywhyn doesn't handle the crowds as intended but certainly uses the skills in an interesting way so is an acceptable alternative - the only part of this solution that I might have considered changing is how the platformer is used after the pickup-skill beyond the monitor - though I think it is too late in the contest now for me to want to make changes (and also I kinda like that this is a tricky level with a variety of different solutions).
« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 02:06:44 PM by Apjjm »
My Level Packs: Quartet

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #104 on: May 29, 2022, 05:27:41 PM »
@Apjjm

Just posting to confirm that a save 56 for your R3 is indeed possible if the right exit has a limit of 26, not the left exit as you mentioned in the video description. Replay attached.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Apjjm

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #105 on: May 29, 2022, 05:35:36 PM »
Very nice find kaywhyn :thumbsup: - I did wonder if it was possible when I saw how icho contained the left crowd but I couldn't spot the bit about grabbing the pickup skill.
My Level Packs: Quartet

Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #106 on: May 29, 2022, 07:58:43 PM »
@kaywhyn

R1 (click to show/hide)

R2 (click to show/hide)

R3 (click to show/hide)

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #107 on: May 29, 2022, 10:59:57 PM »
@The Tomato Watcher

R1: Yes, I'm well aware that I overcomplicated the start significantly! :P That's the thing when it comes to solving levels in the game: A lot of the time you cannot take into account every single thing a player might try, especially with very messy and fiddly methods with heavy timing elements. Most of the time, designers tend to keep intended solutions very efficient and clean and hence the messy stuff from the player is all self-inflicted. As for the repetitiveness at the end, again it's not you, it just happens to be something that I'm not a fan of when skills have to be assigned repeatedly in a very short amount of time :P

R3: Lol I'm probably the biggest Pixar/Disney fan you will come to know! :P "Toy Story" happens to be a favorite of mine, so yes the reference in the level title was quite obvious to me ;) Especially if you've existed on this planet for as long as I have :P Yea, I'm an oldie and am nearly twice your age :laugh: I've watched nearly all of them growing up, though there's still a handful I haven't seen. 
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline DireKrow

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Re: Level Design Contest #25 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)
« Reply #108 on: May 30, 2022, 03:22:15 AM »
Regarding kaywhyn's solutions to my levels...

R1 and R2 are acceptable alternatives that have been seen before and are close to the originally intended solution. R3 is the intended solution.
LOTY 2020 Winner
My NeoLemmix Levels: The Krow Files (File A v1.2 released 21-Feb-2020)