Poll

What is your current position on this idea?

I can see ways I would use this in my levels
3 (21.4%)
I don't have specific ideas for it but would like to play around with it
4 (28.6%)
I don't see myself using it, but would like to play levels with it
0 (0%)
I do not think this should be included
5 (35.7%)
I have no opinion either way
2 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Author Topic: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall  (Read 1457 times)

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Offline namida

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[DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« on: July 15, 2021, 08:42:03 PM »
This proposal is for a "bombproof wall". This would essentially be like a 5th direction of one-way walls; which can be destroyed by any other destructive skill but not by bombers. As it would operate as a 5th one-way direction, it would be mutually exclusive with regular one-way walls - a single pixel could not be both one-way and bombproof (though the two could be used, in different places, within the same level, much like how a single level can contain multiple directions of one-way wall as long as they don't overlap).

Considerations:
- What would be used as a visual indicator of such walls?
- If the Bombs/Detonators suggestion and this one are both implemented, should the bombproof wall also be indestructible by the detonators?

Ruled out variations:
- Having a version that can overlap with one-way walls.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2021, 08:09:16 AM »
Thanks for considering this, namida! ;)

Indeed, if we get bombs/detonators (I personally hear about them for the first time now), they should work the same way as bombers. Meaning, what can't be destroyed by bombs also shouldn't be able to be destroyed by "pre-placed bombs". Everything else would just create too many additional distinctions and thus confusions, imho.

In terms of visual indicators, perhaps we should first agree: Do we want a "flavourful" depiction, like with steel (in-game reason why it can't be destroyed), or a "mechanical" depiction, like with one-way arrows (=not something that can exist in real life)?

If these would indeed work like a 5th type of one-way wall, I'm leaning towards a game-mechanical indicator, like the Bomber's explosion animation ("star-shaped") with a crossed-out symbol on top of it or so. And that would simply be displayed in front of whatever terrain you're making Bomber-proof.
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Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
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Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2021, 02:37:46 PM »
Quote from: namida
What would be used as a visual indicator of such walls?

Hmm. This is a tough one.

My initial instinct is some sort of crossed-out bomb graphic which flashes on and off (dotted across the field in place of OWW arrows). I'd look at designing such a graphic in low-res first, to make sure it looks good with less pixels before beefing it up for high-res.

Another idea could be a 4-frame animation of an explosion (again, dotted across the field where the arrows of a OWW would usually be), but this could be potentially confusing, implying that only Bombers/Bombs can destroy the wall.

One to brainstorm, I think.

Quote from: Strato Incendus
Do we want a "flavourful" depiction, like with steel (in-game reason why it can't be destroyed)

Interesting, I hadn't thought of that at first. But sure, another in-game material with a distinctive look could work. I'd suggest it be some sort of soft and gooey stuff, like plasticine. It would repel a blast from a Bomber, but other destructive skills could conceivably work their way through it.

The obvious problem is the sheer number of ways it could be depicted. If terrain could be animated, maybe making it look liquidy could work...?

THOUGHT: There is a waxy graphic in Lix which could work really well for this, actually:



Quote from: Strato Incendus
If these would indeed work like a 5th type of one-way wall, I'm leaning towards a game-mechanical indicator, like the Bomber's explosion animation ("star-shaped") with a crossed-out symbol on top of it or so

Well, that's two mentions for this, so maybe it's the obvious way to go.

Quote from: Strato Incendus
if we get bombs/detonators (I personally hear about them for the first time now), they should work the same way as bombers

+1, absolutely agree with this.

Offline Simon

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2021, 02:53:45 PM »
Bombproof terrain is hard to make intuitive.

If you reserve textures for bombproof, none of these ideas have looked bombproof and still eligible for all other digging tools. In particular, the wax wouldn't look bombproof to me. You'll probably have to animate a new design of one-way-arrows on top of normal earth, or invent texture with clear static icons.

Why does NL need this? What problems does it solve? What levels are hard to backroute-proof without this?

This really feels like 1-2 designers came up with 2-3 levels that weren't so easy to fix the backroutes without bombproof wall. If it kills 2-3 level ideas, that's fine if you can't lower the cost in unintuitiveness.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: July 17, 2021, 03:03:19 PM by Simon »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2021, 03:16:17 PM »
Why does NL need this? What problems does it solve? What levels are hard to backroute-proof without this?
...
If it kills 2-3 level ideas, that's fine if you can't lower the cost in unintuitiveness.

2-3 existing level ideas.

The point of ideas like this is the possibilities opened up by the idea which were previously not possible/feasible.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2021, 03:37:47 PM »
Quote
Why does NL need this? What problems does it solve? What levels are hard to backroute-proof without this?

A common point of interaction is Bombers vs. Diggers. If you want an obstacle to be removed by a single Digger from the top (using downward arrows), that stripe of terrain will usually be thin enough that a Bomber can simply go through it from the side, too.

That said, as far as I've understood it, namida has already ruled out overlapping objects in this regard.
So the "foolproof" version of downward arrows + Bomber-proof terrain to absolutely enforce Digger usage won't work.

So now the question is: If we can prevent a Bomber from going through the obstacle from the side, but a Digger from above can remove the terrain, and no additional one-way arrows can be applied to that piece of terrain - what's stopping the player from going through the obstacle from the side using Bashers / Fencers / Laserers? (Aside from the level designer simply not providing those skills, of course, but that isn't always possible.)
My packs so far:
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Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2021, 05:00:57 PM »
So now the question is: If we can prevent a Bomber from going through the obstacle from the side, but a Digger from above can remove the terrain, and no additional one-way arrows can be applied to that piece of terrain - what's stopping the player from going through the obstacle from the side using Bashers / Fencers / Laserers? (Aside from the level designer simply not providing those skills, of course, but that isn't always possible.)

Split the terrain into vertical strips, one bombproof and one one-way down. Now a bomber and a basher can break through it, but a digger is the only way to remove the terrain with one skill, so if the level is constructed so that using two skills on it will leave you short elsewhere....

Of course, thin strips are hard to read, so I don't recommend this, but it's a possible solution. Though as a general rule, it's more interesting when you have to work out which skill to use for a given obstacle that will leave you with a suitable skillset for the rest of the level, instead of the terrain making it blatant that one particular skill has to be used.

Offline GigaLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2021, 08:07:45 PM »
While im fashionably late to this, I do want to +1 this idea if we reach an agreement on how it'll be handled.

I'm willing to give this idea a shot, but would it be better have "anti-skill walls" if this were a thing, If bomb proof walls existed, why not settings for Basher proof, Miner proof, fencer proof, or laserer proof? I apologize if it seems off topic, but this thought occurred as I was writing this.

If these would indeed work like a 5th type of one-way wall, I'm leaning towards a game-mechanical indicator, like the Bomber's explosion animation ("star-shaped") with a crossed-out symbol on top of it or so. And that would simply be displayed in front of whatever terrain you're making Bomber-proof.


I did imagine the appearance to be like an X or a Cossed out circle with a bomb inside too

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2021, 08:08:50 PM »
I'm willing to give this idea a shot, but would it be better have "anti-skill walls" if this were a thing, If bomb proof walls existed, why not settings for Basher proof, Miner proof, fencer proof, or laserer proof? I apologize if it seems off topic, but this thought occurred as I was writing this.

Because all those skills are directional, and therefore can be blocked with the existing one-way walls.

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2021, 08:10:42 PM »
Quote
If bomb proof walls existed, why not settings for Basher proof, Miner proof, fencer proof, or laserer proof? I apologize if it seems off topic, but this thought occurred as I was writing this.

Maybe a bit better suited for the general ideas topic than this one, but it's no biggie. In general - I absolutely get where you're coming from, but the reason I specifically have given consideration to bomber-proof is because there's currently no other way (other than outright steel) to prevent a bomber destroying a wall. By comparison, one-way down arrows defeat the basher, laserer and fencer; one-way up arrows defeat the miner and digger; and of course right and left can be added to that (not on the same pixel, but "as overall considerations", or even in practice as a wall where one half is up/down and the other is left/right or similar). I would note that by extension, had the Grenader made the cut, I'd expect the bomber-proof wall to also be grenader-proof. And this line of thought in turn makes me realise: Absolutely, these walls should also be dynamite-proof, if that object makes the cut - more on principle than anything else, as of course a dynamite object is unlikely to be in a location the level creator doesn't want it to be. :P

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2021, 03:34:20 PM »
Thinking about it I tend to agree with Simon here.

It is very very hard to make it intuitive and mark it clearly as "bomb proof". I really can only imagine a crossed-out bomb being animated like a OWW.

Quote
This really feels like 1-2 designers came up with 2-3 levels that weren't so easy to fix the backroutes without bombproof wall. If it kills 2-3 level ideas, that's fine if you can't lower the cost in unintuitiveness.

Therefore I would agree with this statement here.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2021, 08:07:31 PM »
IIRC this object was conceptualized when the Grenader was still a possibility, so it would have been a lot more valuable in that situation. Current bombers don't have a very large explosion, so oftentimes a piece of terrain is just too thick to bomb through - in order to work the bombers need to get completely through the terrain while simultaneously bypassing wherever the bombers were intended to be used.

That said: I imagine the visuals on this would almost certainly be such that we could extend it to the other skills too, considering I'm not sure anyone has any good solution other than icon representing the skill, but with an X through it. It's situational of course, as similar (non-identical) things can be accomplished with directional OWW... but then again, this also seems pretty situational. Certainly, before adding these explosion proof walls, I'd like to see a concrete example of a level that needs explosion proof terrain to work, i.e. the intended solution cannot be made to work with existing features.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2021, 03:48:51 PM »
Quote
Certainly, before adding these explosion proof walls, I'd like to see a concrete example of a level that needs explosion proof terrain to work, i.e. the intended solution cannot be made to work with existing features.

As I admitted, most examples I can think of, i.e. any kinds of solutions that try to enforce removing a wall with a single Digger (meaning the terrain would thereby also be thin enough to be bombed through) would only work with a combination of one-way down arrows + Bomber-proof walls. Since namida has already ruled out that combination being possible, AND, as you said, the Grenader hasn't been implemented... I agree that the usefulness of what would remain seems severely reduced.
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Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2021, 03:22:19 PM »
would it be better have "anti-skill walls"


At first I thought that this would actually be a really good idea, then I remembered that steel existed :P

Quote
This really feels like 1-2 designers came up with 2-3 levels that weren't so easy to fix the backroutes without bombproof wall. If it kills 2-3 level ideas, that's fine if you can't lower the cost in unintuitiveness.

Therefore I would agree with this statement here.

Once again, there are currently only a few levels which would need this idea, but if the idea were implemented then more such levels would be created. The point here is that the idea opens up more design possibilities, rather than simply being a good way to fix backroutes.

Bomb-proof walls are a good idea because all other skills except Bombers would be able to destroy the wall. This currently does not exist, nor can it be simulated.

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2021, 07:24:01 PM »
Quote
Bomb-proof walls are a good idea because all other skills except Bombers would be able to destroy the wall. This currently does not exist, nor can it be simulated.

It exists in the form of making a wall too large for a bomber to get through. There is the thin wall designed for diggers counterexample, but that's the only one, and even that can be worked around in many cases.