Poll

What is your current position on this idea?

I can see ways I would use this in my levels
3 (21.4%)
I don't have specific ideas for it but would like to play around with it
4 (28.6%)
I don't see myself using it, but would like to play levels with it
0 (0%)
I do not think this should be included
5 (35.7%)
I have no opinion either way
2 (14.3%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Author Topic: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall  (Read 1458 times)

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Offline namida

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[DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« on: July 15, 2021, 08:42:03 PM »
This proposal is for a "bombproof wall". This would essentially be like a 5th direction of one-way walls; which can be destroyed by any other destructive skill but not by bombers. As it would operate as a 5th one-way direction, it would be mutually exclusive with regular one-way walls - a single pixel could not be both one-way and bombproof (though the two could be used, in different places, within the same level, much like how a single level can contain multiple directions of one-way wall as long as they don't overlap).

Considerations:
- What would be used as a visual indicator of such walls?
- If the Bombs/Detonators suggestion and this one are both implemented, should the bombproof wall also be indestructible by the detonators?

Ruled out variations:
- Having a version that can overlap with one-way walls.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2021, 08:09:16 AM »
Thanks for considering this, namida! ;)

Indeed, if we get bombs/detonators (I personally hear about them for the first time now), they should work the same way as bombers. Meaning, what can't be destroyed by bombs also shouldn't be able to be destroyed by "pre-placed bombs". Everything else would just create too many additional distinctions and thus confusions, imho.

In terms of visual indicators, perhaps we should first agree: Do we want a "flavourful" depiction, like with steel (in-game reason why it can't be destroyed), or a "mechanical" depiction, like with one-way arrows (=not something that can exist in real life)?

If these would indeed work like a 5th type of one-way wall, I'm leaning towards a game-mechanical indicator, like the Bomber's explosion animation ("star-shaped") with a crossed-out symbol on top of it or so. And that would simply be displayed in front of whatever terrain you're making Bomber-proof.
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Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2021, 02:37:46 PM »
Quote from: namida
What would be used as a visual indicator of such walls?

Hmm. This is a tough one.

My initial instinct is some sort of crossed-out bomb graphic which flashes on and off (dotted across the field in place of OWW arrows). I'd look at designing such a graphic in low-res first, to make sure it looks good with less pixels before beefing it up for high-res.

Another idea could be a 4-frame animation of an explosion (again, dotted across the field where the arrows of a OWW would usually be), but this could be potentially confusing, implying that only Bombers/Bombs can destroy the wall.

One to brainstorm, I think.

Quote from: Strato Incendus
Do we want a "flavourful" depiction, like with steel (in-game reason why it can't be destroyed)

Interesting, I hadn't thought of that at first. But sure, another in-game material with a distinctive look could work. I'd suggest it be some sort of soft and gooey stuff, like plasticine. It would repel a blast from a Bomber, but other destructive skills could conceivably work their way through it.

The obvious problem is the sheer number of ways it could be depicted. If terrain could be animated, maybe making it look liquidy could work...?

THOUGHT: There is a waxy graphic in Lix which could work really well for this, actually:



Quote from: Strato Incendus
If these would indeed work like a 5th type of one-way wall, I'm leaning towards a game-mechanical indicator, like the Bomber's explosion animation ("star-shaped") with a crossed-out symbol on top of it or so

Well, that's two mentions for this, so maybe it's the obvious way to go.

Quote from: Strato Incendus
if we get bombs/detonators (I personally hear about them for the first time now), they should work the same way as bombers

+1, absolutely agree with this.

Online Simon

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2021, 02:53:45 PM »
Bombproof terrain is hard to make intuitive.

If you reserve textures for bombproof, none of these ideas have looked bombproof and still eligible for all other digging tools. In particular, the wax wouldn't look bombproof to me. You'll probably have to animate a new design of one-way-arrows on top of normal earth, or invent texture with clear static icons.

Why does NL need this? What problems does it solve? What levels are hard to backroute-proof without this?

This really feels like 1-2 designers came up with 2-3 levels that weren't so easy to fix the backroutes without bombproof wall. If it kills 2-3 level ideas, that's fine if you can't lower the cost in unintuitiveness.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: July 17, 2021, 03:03:19 PM by Simon »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2021, 03:16:17 PM »
Why does NL need this? What problems does it solve? What levels are hard to backroute-proof without this?
...
If it kills 2-3 level ideas, that's fine if you can't lower the cost in unintuitiveness.

2-3 existing level ideas.

The point of ideas like this is the possibilities opened up by the idea which were previously not possible/feasible.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2021, 03:37:47 PM »
Quote
Why does NL need this? What problems does it solve? What levels are hard to backroute-proof without this?

A common point of interaction is Bombers vs. Diggers. If you want an obstacle to be removed by a single Digger from the top (using downward arrows), that stripe of terrain will usually be thin enough that a Bomber can simply go through it from the side, too.

That said, as far as I've understood it, namida has already ruled out overlapping objects in this regard.
So the "foolproof" version of downward arrows + Bomber-proof terrain to absolutely enforce Digger usage won't work.

So now the question is: If we can prevent a Bomber from going through the obstacle from the side, but a Digger from above can remove the terrain, and no additional one-way arrows can be applied to that piece of terrain - what's stopping the player from going through the obstacle from the side using Bashers / Fencers / Laserers? (Aside from the level designer simply not providing those skills, of course, but that isn't always possible.)
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Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2021, 05:00:57 PM »
So now the question is: If we can prevent a Bomber from going through the obstacle from the side, but a Digger from above can remove the terrain, and no additional one-way arrows can be applied to that piece of terrain - what's stopping the player from going through the obstacle from the side using Bashers / Fencers / Laserers? (Aside from the level designer simply not providing those skills, of course, but that isn't always possible.)

Split the terrain into vertical strips, one bombproof and one one-way down. Now a bomber and a basher can break through it, but a digger is the only way to remove the terrain with one skill, so if the level is constructed so that using two skills on it will leave you short elsewhere....

Of course, thin strips are hard to read, so I don't recommend this, but it's a possible solution. Though as a general rule, it's more interesting when you have to work out which skill to use for a given obstacle that will leave you with a suitable skillset for the rest of the level, instead of the terrain making it blatant that one particular skill has to be used.

Offline GigaLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2021, 08:07:45 PM »
While im fashionably late to this, I do want to +1 this idea if we reach an agreement on how it'll be handled.

I'm willing to give this idea a shot, but would it be better have "anti-skill walls" if this were a thing, If bomb proof walls existed, why not settings for Basher proof, Miner proof, fencer proof, or laserer proof? I apologize if it seems off topic, but this thought occurred as I was writing this.

If these would indeed work like a 5th type of one-way wall, I'm leaning towards a game-mechanical indicator, like the Bomber's explosion animation ("star-shaped") with a crossed-out symbol on top of it or so. And that would simply be displayed in front of whatever terrain you're making Bomber-proof.


I did imagine the appearance to be like an X or a Cossed out circle with a bomb inside too

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2021, 08:08:50 PM »
I'm willing to give this idea a shot, but would it be better have "anti-skill walls" if this were a thing, If bomb proof walls existed, why not settings for Basher proof, Miner proof, fencer proof, or laserer proof? I apologize if it seems off topic, but this thought occurred as I was writing this.

Because all those skills are directional, and therefore can be blocked with the existing one-way walls.

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2021, 08:10:42 PM »
Quote
If bomb proof walls existed, why not settings for Basher proof, Miner proof, fencer proof, or laserer proof? I apologize if it seems off topic, but this thought occurred as I was writing this.

Maybe a bit better suited for the general ideas topic than this one, but it's no biggie. In general - I absolutely get where you're coming from, but the reason I specifically have given consideration to bomber-proof is because there's currently no other way (other than outright steel) to prevent a bomber destroying a wall. By comparison, one-way down arrows defeat the basher, laserer and fencer; one-way up arrows defeat the miner and digger; and of course right and left can be added to that (not on the same pixel, but "as overall considerations", or even in practice as a wall where one half is up/down and the other is left/right or similar). I would note that by extension, had the Grenader made the cut, I'd expect the bomber-proof wall to also be grenader-proof. And this line of thought in turn makes me realise: Absolutely, these walls should also be dynamite-proof, if that object makes the cut - more on principle than anything else, as of course a dynamite object is unlikely to be in a location the level creator doesn't want it to be. :P

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2021, 03:34:20 PM »
Thinking about it I tend to agree with Simon here.

It is very very hard to make it intuitive and mark it clearly as "bomb proof". I really can only imagine a crossed-out bomb being animated like a OWW.

Quote
This really feels like 1-2 designers came up with 2-3 levels that weren't so easy to fix the backroutes without bombproof wall. If it kills 2-3 level ideas, that's fine if you can't lower the cost in unintuitiveness.

Therefore I would agree with this statement here.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2021, 08:07:31 PM »
IIRC this object was conceptualized when the Grenader was still a possibility, so it would have been a lot more valuable in that situation. Current bombers don't have a very large explosion, so oftentimes a piece of terrain is just too thick to bomb through - in order to work the bombers need to get completely through the terrain while simultaneously bypassing wherever the bombers were intended to be used.

That said: I imagine the visuals on this would almost certainly be such that we could extend it to the other skills too, considering I'm not sure anyone has any good solution other than icon representing the skill, but with an X through it. It's situational of course, as similar (non-identical) things can be accomplished with directional OWW... but then again, this also seems pretty situational. Certainly, before adding these explosion proof walls, I'd like to see a concrete example of a level that needs explosion proof terrain to work, i.e. the intended solution cannot be made to work with existing features.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2021, 03:48:51 PM »
Quote
Certainly, before adding these explosion proof walls, I'd like to see a concrete example of a level that needs explosion proof terrain to work, i.e. the intended solution cannot be made to work with existing features.

As I admitted, most examples I can think of, i.e. any kinds of solutions that try to enforce removing a wall with a single Digger (meaning the terrain would thereby also be thin enough to be bombed through) would only work with a combination of one-way down arrows + Bomber-proof walls. Since namida has already ruled out that combination being possible, AND, as you said, the Grenader hasn't been implemented... I agree that the usefulness of what would remain seems severely reduced.
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Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2021, 03:22:19 PM »
would it be better have "anti-skill walls"


At first I thought that this would actually be a really good idea, then I remembered that steel existed :P

Quote
This really feels like 1-2 designers came up with 2-3 levels that weren't so easy to fix the backroutes without bombproof wall. If it kills 2-3 level ideas, that's fine if you can't lower the cost in unintuitiveness.

Therefore I would agree with this statement here.

Once again, there are currently only a few levels which would need this idea, but if the idea were implemented then more such levels would be created. The point here is that the idea opens up more design possibilities, rather than simply being a good way to fix backroutes.

Bomb-proof walls are a good idea because all other skills except Bombers would be able to destroy the wall. This currently does not exist, nor can it be simulated.

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2021, 07:24:01 PM »
Quote
Bomb-proof walls are a good idea because all other skills except Bombers would be able to destroy the wall. This currently does not exist, nor can it be simulated.

It exists in the form of making a wall too large for a bomber to get through. There is the thin wall designed for diggers counterexample, but that's the only one, and even that can be worked around in many cases.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2021, 09:39:53 PM »
As it stands now I agree with Simon's points and have voted accordingly:

Why does NL need this? What problems does it solve? What levels are hard to backroute-proof without this?

This really feels like 1-2 designers came up with 2-3 levels that weren't so easy to fix the backroutes without bombproof wall. If it kills 2-3 level ideas, that's fine if you can't lower the cost in unintuitiveness.

I could still be convinced otherwise, but I'd really need to see (like, with pictures) a variety of ideas that absolutely need this object to work in order to convince me that the design potential would outweigh the added complexity.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2021, 01:09:10 PM »
It exists in the form of making a wall too large for a bomber to get through

I disagree that this is a satisfactory workaround/simulation. The terrain can still be destroyed by the Bomber in this case, and therefore is not the same as the terrain not being Bomber-destructible. Whatever the in-level consequences are of this, the fact remains that the two cases are different.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2021, 02:21:15 PM »
While that is technically true, the fact remains that if you want an area of terrain to be non-bombable, all you have to do is make it too thick for the number of bombers the player can afford to use, whether that means changing the terrain, lowering the number of bombers available, or increasing the save requirement.

(There is one exceptional case, where terrain being bombable is a problem because a bomber could dent it rather than breaking all the way through it -- for instance, making a dent where a climber can stop climbing and build out. However, if that would create a backroute, in most cases steel or a flamethrower etc. would be sufficient to prevent it.)

NL already has a glut of features, and if we are going to add yet more, we should restrict it to ones that really bring something new to the table and open the way to genuinely new puzzle ideas.

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2021, 12:51:29 AM »
Quote
The terrain can still be destroyed by the Bomber in this case, and therefore is not the same as the terrain not being Bomber-destructible. Whatever the in-level consequences are of this, the fact remains that the two cases are different.

What does this offer in terms of design potential that other options do not?

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2021, 02:07:12 PM »
terrain being bombable is a problem because a bomber could dent it rather than breaking all the way through it

Yes, exactly. As well as Climbers being affected (and being able to affect the wall by assigning a Bomber to the Climber), Sliders are affected as well.

Not to mention the various other possibilities of a partially dented wall (can be used as a way to gain height, can be used as a starting point for further destruction of the wall, etc).

NL already has a glut of features, and if we are going to add yet more, we should restrict it to ones that really bring something new to the table and open the way to genuinely new puzzle ideas.

What does this offer in terms of design potential that other options do not?

I've not done much level designing recently as I'm experiencing a period of creative block so I'm perhaps not the best person to address this at present :'(

My instinct is that if an idea is novel enough to be considered "something which does not yet exist in the game, nor can be adequetely worked-around or simulated", then it likely does have potential. Apologies I can't really do better than that at the mo! :forehead:

@Strato - you suggested this idea, any thoughts?

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2021, 10:22:00 AM »
It is true that bombers can dent walls, but as has been mentioned steel can already prevent this. You'd need a situation where a destructive skill must be able to get through a wall (which would prevent steel from working), and a bomber denting the wall would create problems, and the use of the bomber to do this can't be prevented by requiring the bomber to be used somewhere else.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2021, 03:35:49 PM »
You'd need a situation where a destructive skill must be able to get through a wall (which would prevent steel from working), and a bomber denting the wall would create problems, and the use of the bomber to do this can't be prevented by requiring the bomber to be used somewhere else.

Hmm. When you put it like that, I guess it is a daft idea :crylaugh:

I'm sure better minds than mine could create such scenarios, though ;P

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2021, 07:31:35 PM »
Quote
Hmm. When you put it like that, I guess it is a daft idea :crylaugh:

There's a difference between it being a daft idea, and it not holding up under tight scrutiny. If it seemed dumb even on the surface, this topic wouldn't be here, it would've gone straight to the reject bin. ;)

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2021, 04:34:54 AM »
There's a difference between it being a daft idea, and it not holding up under tight scrutiny. If it seemed dumb even on the surface, this topic wouldn't be here, it would've gone straight to the reject bin. ;)

Fair enough :lemcat:

In that case, the strongest argument I can think of to include bombproof walls is that they're a reasonable addition to the one-way wall group of objects (in that they disallow at least one type of destructive skill, whilst allowing at least one other destructive skill).

Really, the only reason I can think of to not include it is because the Bomber is a sacrificial skill, and so needs to have some additional power when compared to the non-sacrificial destructive skills. But this is more from a 'general gameplay' point of view as opposed to thinking about any specific level design scenarios.

I always find it difficult to discuss these things hypothetically to be honest! :forehead: :-[ If the idea seems good and it wouldn't take too much effort to implement, then it should be trialled. It's easier to get an idea of how useful (or not) an idea is when you can get hands-on with it, and it's great that we've had the opportunity to do this with many ideas previously :thumbsup:

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2021, 07:22:52 AM »
Fortunately, conceptually this idea is quite simple - you could mostly try it out without the object actually being implemented with a simple "please don't bomb this wall" graphic*. If it offers potential when players are acknowledging it by choice, then the actual object enforcing it could be made. It also would allow people to look at some of the concepts with it and see if it's possible to enforce the core design of the level without having access to the actual object.

*One case wouldn't work, where the bomber must be used somewhere that's overlapping some bombable and some nonbombable terrain, the non-bombable terrain of which would need to be destroyed with a different destructive skill (if it doesn't need to be destroyed at all, steel is an option).

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2021, 01:58:46 AM »
Fortunately, conceptually this idea is quite simple - you could mostly try it out without the object actually being implemented with a simple "please don't bomb this wall" graphic*

Good idea :thumbsup:

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Potential new object - Bombproof wall
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2021, 04:39:52 PM »
Okay so ultimately, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of people who've voted that they see use for this; the arguments are not particularly persuasive; and no good answer has been proposed to the discussion around visuals.

Between all of these factors, I am at this point going to reject this suggestion. Note that this doesn't mean it wasn't worth bringing up - just that it didn't make the cut.