[NeoLemmix] Lemminas (64 Levels) [Difficulty: Medium] [1.06 UPDATE]

[namida]

And then Pandemonium 5, we have a hidden exit along with an unjustified ultra-high lemmina count, contrary to the claim there was no more of that kind of stuff after the 2nd rank.

This is where I stop until the update is out.

[WillLem]

And then Pandemonium 5, we have a hidden exit along with an unjustified ultra-high lemmina count

The high lemmina count is justified in Pandemonium 5:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

it prevents digging straight down to the exit, and it makes building underneath the hatch to get to the other side more difficult, thus encouraging a multi-tasking solution.

I'll un-hide the exit for V1.01 though.

[namida]

it prevents digging straight down to the exit

If I make the first lemmina immediately dig, splatting starts to occur at around the 80th lemmina. So you've justified 80ish - even 100, perhaps. Now what's the reason for the next 200? (In many cases I'd also say "lower, locked RR, with a lower lemming count again", but I do see the value of RR99 in this case.)

[WillLem]

you've justified 80ish - even 100, perhaps. Now what's the reason for the next 200?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It makes building underneath the hatch to get to the other side more difficult, thus encouraging a multi-tasking solution.
i.e. if the player chooses to contain the entire crowd and send out a single worker to get both buttons, they've got to get the timing perfect in order to avoid building under the entrance whilst there are still lems pouring out of it.

If you honestly think that's not a good enough reason, I'll consider reducing it to 100 lems instead.

[namida]

Well, this solution suggests your intent with the large lemmina quantity is easily bypassed.

An important thing to consider here is - if you do stuff like this often, even if you might have one level with a legitimate reason, that "one level" will be judged quickly because of all the others that didn't need the unfair / tedious elements. Doubly so when backroutes destroy the reason you thought the level needed it. On the other hand, if the issues with every other level in the pack weren't there and it was only this one - I'd still be calling out the hidden exit, but the 300 lemminas probably wouldn't register as a big deal, and if I didn't see an obvious reason for it, I'd assume I might have backrouted the level in a way that destroys it, rather than just assuming it's unnecessary and "for the sake of it". (This is NOT saying "it's fine as long as you don't do it often", just "it's less likely to be judged as harshly when it's one level rather than a regular occurance, and you'd get more benefit of the doubt that there's a legit reason but a backroute is bypassing it rather than no legit reason". Just as a full disclosure thing - I had solved this level, with this solution, before I posted my comment about "that's where I stop".)

[WillLem]

Thanks for the feedback Namida. I'm thinking... OK, if there is a possible solution which renders the high lemmina count irrelevant (and I know of at least 3, possibly 4, and now 5 with your solution!) then yes - maybe it's not really necessary.

I have already revealed the exit's door, which should keep all other known solutions intact, and I will also lower the count to 100 lemminas.

If you manage to get the rest of Pandemonium done in the next couple of days, I'll take into account any further feedback you may have. I've done my best to think about what might possibly be an issue in the rest of the rank, so here are some heads ups (some of this is stuff I've already changed for V1.01):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Falling Forever Part II has a known backroute in which a Glider can be assigned right from the entrance in order to get the unlock button. I've already fixed this.

I'll Just Wait Here, Shall I is another high-lemmina-count level, but is fully justified: in fact, it came about as a result of the discussion we had about high lemming counts: I wanted to see if I could make a puzzle that needed lotsa lemminas. I think I've succeeded with this.

Mary Poppins' Land II has overlapping teleporters purely to help the lems get through more quickly: there is nothing misleading as this part of the level doesn't require any interaction (you'll see what I mean) and there only appears to be one teleporter and one receiver, so the effect is more like that of a portal.

Due to your feedback regarding Just a Second, I've now removed level 15 Think Fast and replaced it with a level I made today. This will appear in V1.01, so you can ignore the current level 15.

Rendezvous at the Mountain II has pickups hidden in presents: the effect is very obvious as the numbers appear next to the presents, and they are only required for the talisman, which is titled "unwrap those presents!" I think this is fair, and as of V1.01 it will be the only remaining example of hidden objects in the entire pack.

So that's it. If you're happy to have a look at it that'd be great, but if not don't worry coz I'm pretty much ready to release V1.01 anyways.

Many thanks again for taking the time to play and review Lemminas in its current state, your feedback has already gone a long way to making the next version a massive improvement.

[namida]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Mary Poppins' Land II has overlapping teleporters purely to help the lems get through more quickly: there is nothing misleading as this part of the level doesn't require any interaction (you'll see what I mean) and there only appears to be one teleporter and one receiver, so the effect is more like that of a portal.

Rendezvous at the Mountain II has pickups hidden in presents: the effect is very obvious as the numbers appear next to the presents, and they are only required for the talisman, which is titled "unwrap those presents!" I think this is fair, and as of V1.01 it will be the only remaining example of hidden objects in the entire pack.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Regarding the first one - recall what I explained earlier, that it's not just about what actually happens in the intended solution, but also what the player could think would happen. It doesn't matter if the result is "let the lemminas just walk there, it'll work out", if it doesn't look like that's what will happen. Remember - the player cannot tell, other than through trial and error (and in this case, that trial might not even happen because they wouldn't expect it), that such a setup is there.

Regarding the second one - that's still a hidden object, and if the player cannot see (or have to make an especially strong effort to see) what skills they contain, it's still unfair. Again, "they're only required for the talisman" comes back to knowledge you have as the creator, but the player does not; and even if they're not required, that in no way stops players from trying to make use of them. Hiding what they are just means extra time spent testing each one, memorizing (or noting) what was in it, and then trying to plan a solution while having to refer back to the notes on what they were. I definitely don't agree with your assessment that this case is "fair", and I'd even go as far as to say it might be the most unfair case in the pack.

The high-lemmina case is hard to say without actually trying the level out.

[WillLem]

Response to Namida's comments (click to show/hide)

it's not just about what actually happens in the intended solution, but also what the player could think would happen. It doesn't matter if the result is "let the lemminas just walk there, it'll work out", if it doesn't look like that's what will happen. Remember - the player cannot tell, other than through trial and error... that such a setup is there.

OK, fair enough - I'll either reduce it to one teleporter/receiver and adjust the lemmina count such that it doesn't take too long for them to get through at the end of the level, or I'll simply spread the teleporters/receivers out so that it's clear how many there are.

that's still a hidden object, and if the player cannot see (or have to make an especially strong effort to see) what skills they contain, it's still unfair.

Another good point, it didn't occur to me that a player might go for the pickups anyway. That said, the process that you describe the player going through to find out what the pickups are is part of the fun of exploring a new level: I'd say this one isn't even that difficult to navigate around, what with its abundance of skills.

What if they were hidden such that the numbers weren't visible either (i.e. by only having single pickups)? That way, a player would have no reason to assume that they were even there until the talisman prompts them to explore, and thus they wouldn't waste time unnecessarily.

I'm reticent to change this one, simply because it's a bit of good clean fun. I absolutely wouldn't mind playing a level with optional hidden pickups - in fact, I'd particularly enjoy playing such a level if it was otherwise fairly straightforward.

With that being said, I still want Lemminas to be a pack that is completely fair, and I know what the likely result of a poll on this issue would be, so...

OK, I'll make the pickups visible.

I'd be interested to know your response to this, though. The idea of "exploration" levels is something I'd like to develop further, hence toying with the idea of a pack where every level has infinite skills and encourages player-led navigation. To some extent, hidden objects facilitate and enhance this idea, giving the player something to find within the level. Is there no way to do this fairly and enjoyably?

As always, thanks for your response. It's an interesting dialogue and I'm grateful for the opportunity to unpack my ideas properly.

[namida]

I'd be interested to know your response to this, though. The idea of "exploration" levels is something I'd like to develop further, hence toying with the idea of a pack where every level has infinite skills and encourages player-led navigation. To some extent, hidden objects facilitate and enhance this idea, giving the player something to find within the level. Is there no way to do this fairly and enjoyably?

My suggestion would be a standalone pack, or at least a seperate rank (but honestly I'd lean more towards an entirely seperate pack), that's very clear about the nature of its content. While the pack would still qualify as all of the above; it would be very open about this, and players wouldn't have to worry about which levels are fair vs which ones are not - they can play the whole fair pack, and ignore the whole unfair one (or vice versa).

[WillLem]

Version 1.01 is now ready! See OP for download

A big thank-you to Namida, Proxima, Armani, IchoTolot and DireKrow for the detailed feedback which has led to V1.01 being a hugely improved version of Lemminas.

Here's what's changed:

Lemminas V1.01 Changelog (click to show/hide)

• Added a new graphic which gives levels with wrap effect a gently glowing edge
• Curved the edges of the updraft graphic to give it a more pleasing look
• Made the Continuum teleporters wider and more rounded; also made the IN ones pink and the OUT ones blue so it's clearer which is which
• Removed Pandemonium 15 Think Fast and replaced it with a new level Nothing is Impossible
• Redesigned The Unnecessarily Tall Pillar - there are now 2 much shorter pillars, but the puzzle is the same
• Redesigned elements of Backroute To The Future quite extensively - this is now a much better level
• Added a few Talismans and tweaked others slightly
• Made the Firewall graphic vertically resizable
• Added various new terrain pieces including a steel bar
• Fixed backroutes on the following levels:
  Lemmina Loop Prevention Service
  I'll Go First
  Dimples
  Hurry!
  Day Of The Daredevils Part III
  Lemminas Recurring
  Nessy II
  Lemmina City Steel Facility
  Lemgate
  Falling Forever Part II
  Rendezvous At The Mountain II
  
• Removed/revealed all hidden elements in any levels which contained them: the entire pack is now free of hidden/invisible elements
• Lowered lemmina count on Worra Lorra Lemminas, Mary Poppins' Land II and The Cherry Cola Conundrum
• Minor graphical/layout tweaks and improvements here and there

Quite a lot of work has gone into this update - almost as much as getting the pack together in the first place! (well, maybe not )

I'd say it's well worth downloading this new version even if you have the old one. I've zipped the folders into a single folder via the method Namida suggested, so it should be extractable directly to the NeoLemmix base folder.

Please note that the only folders that are the same in this version are the music and sound: all levels, replays and the style pack contain numerous updates. If you already have it, I would strongly suggest deleting the older version and simply replacing it with the new folder in its entirety to avoid any potential issues.

N.B. Any future updates to this pack will likely be in the form of single levels or graphic pieces, so there will not be any need to re-download the music and sound again after this - apologies to those who've had to download it twice, but I feel this is currently the best way to ensure that everyone who downloads the pack from now on has everything they need.

Finally, I encourage you to enjoy playing this pack in NeoLemmix 12.8.2 with its Hi-Res mode enabled in order to enjoy the lush visuals as intended (if you turn off the HQ minimap, you shouldn't get any lag issues, even on the larger levels).

I look forward to your replays and feedback on this version of the pack, and I hope you'll agree it's a vast improvement.

Thank you for saving the Lemminas!

[mantha16]

I've updated to the new version but so many of the levels won't load even allowing for updates online what am I doing wrong.

[WillLem]

I've updated to the new version but so many of the levels won't load even allowing for updates online what am I doing wrong.

Can you screenshot the error that you're getting, and I'll look into it.

Also, just for starters, make sure you're using at least NeoLemmix 12.8.2 and that your copy of styles>willlem_lemminas>terrain contains the bar_red_large graphic (the last graphic to be added to the style).

N.B. Since I only sent the new style folder over to Nessy last night, it's likely that it hasn't yet been uploaded to the online styles manager. My advice would be to manually copy the entire updated willlem_lemminas folder into NeoLemmix>styles if you haven't already done so.

[DireKrow]

Can confirm that the style seems to be missing pieces. Magical 8 for instance seems to be missing something on the left side:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And Magical 13 near the exit:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm using the most up to date version downloaded through the NL downloader. It does seem to be missing at least the piece you mentioned:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

EDIT:

N.B. Since I only sent the new style folder over to Nessy last night, it's likely that it hasn't yet been uploaded to the online styles manager.

Aha, that would explain it.

[WillLem]

Ah, OK, that's almost certainly the issue: the version available through the online styles manager hasn't yet been updated.

Anyone who's downloaded V1.01 so far will need to manually copy the willlem_lemminas style folder contained in the download bundle to NeoLemmix>styles. Simply extracting the entire Lemminas V1.01.zip to the NeoLemmix base folder should also achieve this.

EDIT: I have now downloaded the Lemminas V1.01 zip folder myself and extracted it to a fresh install of NeoLemmix 12.8.2 - I can confirm that it works fully.

I have also uploaded the V1.01 zip folder again - it now contains new skill panel graphics as well.

Apologies for the inconvenience there, hopefully the online style will get updated soon.

[mantha16]

I did copy the files manually I'm not sure if I have the most up to date player so I'll try updating that see if it helps. Thanks

Btw as I'm a girly I love the girl lem lens ( that's what my hubby calls it when he catches me playing).