Yippee! More Lemmings [Difficulty: Easy-Hard]

[NieSch]

Yippee! My first level pack is here.



Yippee! More Lemmings

- For NeoLemmix v12.07 or higher
- 20 levels equally divided into Fun, Tricky, Taxing and Mayhem + 2 bonus levels
- Using the original styles and music from Lemmings, Oh No! More Lemmings and Christmas Lemmings
- Using classic and new NeoLemmix skills and features including the shimmier (<- I love that skill)


Tricky 1: Marching in the Moonlight


Taxing 1: Cliff Diving


Mayhem 5: Out of the Frying Pan

Thanks to all who gave me feedback in my development topic.
Thanks to Swerdis and IchoTolot for playtesting.

I had great fun making these levels. I hope you have fun playing them too!


Latest update: 07/12/2020

[Strato Incendus]

Haha, it took me a second to get that title. Why not "Oh yes! More Lemmings" right away?

Will give it a shot soon! There has been way too little new content since the introduction of the Shimmier - and I'm definitely to blame for that, as well, since I've been treading quite slowly on the further development of Lemmings Open Air. So I'm curious to see how other people put that new skill to use! Especially in the context of smaller packs, which therefore likely don't take ages to solve, even if every other level should stump me.

Which, given that you say IchoTolot playtested this pack, among others, doesn't seem that unlikely to me...

[IchoTolot]

From playtesting it, I can really recommend this pack and it also has some tough nuts to beat!

[Swerdis]

I agree with this. I couldn't solve all the levels, NieSch sent me for playtesting. I will try to beat the pack and, after that, I'm looking forward to new material

[grams88]

Hi NieSch

You have given me the idea to make a small pack, maybe a 20 level pack, the ski sloping lemmings seemed very unpopular except maybe for the later levels.

[NieSch]

Update

I really love the beautiful and mysterious crystal tileset. I already had two crystal levels in this pack but I didn't have a nice "open landscape" one.

Now I've made one and added it as Tricky 1 to the pack.


Marching in the Moonlight

The only L2 (circus style) level that previously was Tricky 5 is now moved to a new "Bonus" rank. (I might add more bonus levels later.)

See the first post for the new attachment.

[IchoTolot]

I think this might be a backroute.

[NieSch]

LOL, it is. And I really don't know why I didn't think of that.

Edit: Fixed it. Now with a better solution thanks to IchoTolot.

[NieSch]

Update

I've added one final level (ranked "Bonus 2") that brings the total amount of levels to 22.


The Yippee Finale

See the first post for the new attachment.

[ccexplore]

The yippee finale level looks really cool! Actually the layout kinda looks like it could be a multiplayer level, might be interesting for someone to adapt that in Lix and see how it goes.

[namida]

The yippee finale level looks really cool! Actually the layout kinda looks like it could be a multiplayer level, might be interesting for someone to adapt that in Lix and see how it goes.

Lix lacks the splitter objects that seem to be what makes that level work. (The - in this case - golden arches with the red / green arrows. When a lemming walks into them, they turn to face the direction of the green arrow. When this happens, the direction changes, so the next lemming will go the opposite way.)

[Nessy]

Finally played through the Fun and Tricky ratings of this pack (my solutions are attached below). Very impressive levels! My favorites so far are definitely "Signs to Guide You" and "Home is Where the Heat is" with interesting and well thought out solutions.

[NieSch]

Thanks Nessy! I enjoyed watching your solutions.

"Signs to Guide You" has also my favorite solution.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

When I was making another level I accidentally found out that a blocker can turn a shimmier and thought it would be fun to build a level around this.

[Nessy]

Managed to solve 4/5 levels from Taxing The one that has me completely stumped is "Capture Me". I attached an attempt replay just to see if I am at least on the right track.

[NieSch]

Managed to solve 4/5 levels from Taxing The one that has me completely stumped is "Capture Me". I attached an attempt replay just to see if I am at least on the right track.

Well done! Most of them are just a little different from the intended solution. (See a few posts above.) Taxing 4 is a very creative backroute.

About "Capture Me": you're very close. Two hints:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's enough to capture only one lemming.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Dig somewhere else.

[Armani]

I really enjoyed this pack so that I can't stop playing and I finished all the levels at one sitting

I love the levels with new skill. Especially "Tarzan and Jane" is my favorite.
(idk the exact name of the skill,one that grab the ceiling and move forward)

I attached my solutions.

[NieSch]

I really enjoyed this pack so that I can't stop playing and I finished all the levels at one sitting

Wow, that's a great achievement.

[WillLem]

These levels are fantastically put together, very well done! I'm not used to the NeoLemmix-specific skills yet so it's been very difficult to get my head around these. I've managed to get as far as Mayhem, but not without a few hints along the way.

Attached my replays so far. I really want to have a go at getting through the Mayhem levels without using your replays at all. I'll need to sleep on these first though, the solutions will probably come to me in a dream!

[NieSch]

Thanks WillLem! It was fun watching your solutions. They're a nice combination of intended solutions and inventive alternative ones.

[WillLem]

Thanks WillLem! It was fun watching your solutions. They're a nice combination of intended solutions and inventive alternative ones.

Haha, to be honest I needed a hint for almost every Taxing level - any intended solutions here are almost certainly down to a prompt from the replays:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In particular, Enjoy Yourself seems almost impossible without knowing that you have to send your hero to the left first, and your use of stackers to create climbable terrain is very much a new thing to an old-schooler like me!

Also, I almost got Bashing Through The Snow entirely on my own, but needed that hint as to what to do with the stacker - very clever indeed!

A lot of these levels require such specific use of skills and in a very particular order, almost none of the solutions are obvious. I guess you should take that as a compliment from a design/creativity point of view, for sure - but from a player's point of view it is nice to have the odd level where the solution is obvious and it's more about actually getting the execution just right (I know this isn't a very popular point of view on this forum, but I always get a kick out of getting something stategically easy but technically difficult just right.) To be fair, your levels are a pretty potent mix of both in many cases!

I'm determined to do all of the Mayhem levels without using hints; I'm still on Pythagolem's Theorem!

[NieSch]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In particular, Enjoy Yourself seems almost impossible without knowing that you have to send your hero to the left first, and your use of stackers to create climbable terrain is very much a new thing to an old-schooler like me!

There are other options. And the stacker/climber thing is something I made sure had to be done/learned already in Fun 4. (I did this with other things too.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Even in Fun 1 there's something that comes back later in one of the Mayhem levels.)

[ccexplore]

A lot of these levels require such specific use of skills and in a very particular order, almost none of the solutions are obvious. I guess you should take that as a compliment from a design/creativity point of view, for sure - but from a player's point of view it is nice to have the odd level where the solution is obvious and it's more about actually getting the execution just right (I know this isn't a very popular point of view on this forum, but I always get a kick out of getting something stategically easy but technically difficult just right.) To be fair, your levels are a pretty potent mix of both in many cases!

To be fair, there is a recognition that the custom levels here tend to skew more difficult from puzzle standpoint compared to the original games', and that we probably need a better balance of easier levels to make things more accessible for more people.  There is also discussions on providing levels and packs that help teach some of the more advanced moves that have become commonplace in custom levels.

I think people here tend to look for other games for technically difficult executions if they look for that at all.  For example, Simon Na who created Lix, is a pretty vocal proponent of adding game features to ease executions and remove elements from levels and game that only introduces execution difficulties, yet he is also an avid speedrunner of the Jazz JackRabbit games, an activity all about nailing difficult executions (well, there are also some strategies involved, but execution is definitely a core part).  I think the faster pacing and more direct controls you get from platformer kind of games work much better for execution-emphasized style of gameplay compared to Lemmings games.

I think the execution-heavy kind of gameplay can be very much like practicing on the piano for a piano player.  There is inevitably going to be a lot of mindful repetitions involved to get things burned into muscle and mind memory.  Some people can find doing that very zen, but at the same time, even for professional piano players, practicing will always tend to be at least a little bit of a chore, the tax you pay to get to the point where execution is no longer an issue and you can actually focus on the more creative and rewarding aspects like musical interpretation.

I think most popular games out there do tend to emphasize execution a bit more than puzzles, so the comparatively rarer games that lean in opposite direction, being much more towards puzzles compared to execution, like Lemmings, will tend to attract players with tastes aligned accordingly, and the direction of this community is kind of a reflection of that I think.

[WillLem]

To be fair, there is a recognition that the custom levels here tend to skew more difficult from puzzle standpoint compared to the original games', and that we probably need a better balance of easier levels to make things more accessible for more people.  There is also discussions on providing levels and packs that help teach some of the more advanced moves that have become commonplace in custom levels.

Playing this pack and Strato's Lemmicks have highlighted quite a few advanced moves that I would never have guessed at (and, with the latter, not just in the context of the various gimmicks). I think the key with learning these is repetition - have several easy levels which use the same trick again and again so that the player is used to recognising it as a possible tool in the context of a trickier puzzle.

I think the execution-heavy kind of gameplay can be very much like practicing on the piano for a piano player.  There is inevitably going to be a lot of mindful repetitions involved to get things burned into muscle and mind memory.

If this concept was applied as "puzzle-memory", this is exactly what needs to happen with beginner levels - repetition of advanced puzzle moves in easier contexts which equip the player with the tools needed to solve more difficult puzzles.

{Side note - when I talk about execution difficulty, I don't always mean physically pressing the mouse buttons at the right time (NeoLemmix all but removes the need for that sort of thing anyway), I'm referring more to the difficulty involved in actually carrying out a solution once it's been identified, which can be down to timing/correct ordering of skills, pixel precise placement of a particular skill, or a combination of these and other more mechanical gameplay elements.}

Practice needn't be a chore, and it needn't be purely mechanical. I happen to be a piano player so I understand your metaphor quite well, and I always practice in ways that satisfy me musically as well as focusing on technique.

What's needed here is someone who's willing to make good quality easy levels, which are enjoyable to play and just challenging enough to maintain interest. IchoTolot's Introduction pack seems to do a fairly good job of this task, but it seems unfair to leave it to one person. If there is genuine interest in making some more progress-based levels to teach people the various skills (i.e. not just what the skill does, but the various different ways in which it can be used), maybe a collaboration of sorts would be a good idea to get this put together. There's definitely enough level design talent on here; if a small team of creators joined minds, it's possible to create something that fits the bill and hopefully encourages more people to get involved.

Anyways, to comment on this pack directly: it's nothing short of genius, IMHO! I found a lot of it unsolvable, and probably had more fun watching the replays to see how it was done, kind of like the end of a Jonathan Creek episode!

I think it's fair to say that it's almost impossible complete this pack without prior knowledge of the various tricks used, and I'm sure the same goes for a lot of other level packs on the forum (I've seen similar levels in a few other packs I've looked at so far - you have to know the tricks to get the solutions). Introductory/beginner packs would come in handy here, to make packs such as this that bit more enjoyable (but no less challenging).

NieSch - I've attached my Mayhem & Bonus replays, but tbh they're identical to your solutions because I ultimately needed your replays in order to get the solutions. It was fun playing through them anyway, there's some great little tricks in here which were satisfying to get right (in the end!)

All best,

-WillLem

[Strato Incendus]

Did somebody say "let's teach players skill tricks"?

Playing this pack and Strato's Lemmicks have highlighted quite a few advanced moves that I would never have guessed at

I'm glad you could acquire some new knowledge from playing Lemmicks! Strangely enough, though, that wasn't actually the prime objective of this pack. Any tricks Lemmicks teaches that I can remember off the top of my head are mostly related to outdated features, such as solid level sides and ghosts.

The Noisemaker and Amateur rank of my pack Lemmings World Tour are actually much more directed specifically at teaching various skill tricks to the player. I'll admit though that some of them might still be slightly too difficult for that - based on feedback by IchoTolot - despite me announcing almost every trick in advance via a pre-level screen.

However, there is no immediate "trick repetition" on these levels - one level, one trick to learn. Most of the tricks taught on these two ranks come up again later, but without prior announcement than, plus there's a bunch of levels in between, so the player could forget again.

If this concept was applied as "puzzle-memory", this is exactly what needs to happen with beginner levels - repetition of advanced puzzle moves in easier contexts which equip the player with the tools needed to solve more difficult puzzles.

I think the main reason this hasn't been done so far is that people don't want to overdo certain tricks. For example, during the early phase of level creation for Lemmings Open Air, I created several levels in a row using the Miner-Miner-cancel trick, or several levels where Miners had to be forced to continue over Builder staircases. Now I feel I'm overusing the Shimmier. When eventually deciding upon the final level order, most content creators will probably not put levels requiring the same trick back-to-back.

The second thing which I noticed is that, even if you create a level specifically to teach a trick, many of these levels still can't enforce the use of said track with absolute certainty. And on the other hand, if you want to achieve this 100% certainty, the level must be simplified so far that it pretty much only consists of the trick and nothing else. This is great for teaching the trick for the first time - but if you repeat this concept e.g. five times in levels placed close to each other, the solution might get too easy to spot.

Then again, this automatisation of recognising potential for trick use is probably what you're going for?

Two examples from Lemmings World Tour on how this can or cannot work (click to show/hide)

Stop and stair (Noisemaker 18): This level teaches the three-Builder wall as a trick. At the same time, it also requires closing a Basher shaft by building behind him. I could have provided enough Builders to create a three-Builder wall behind and in front of the crowd to repeat the trick. But I actually think that would have made the level more difficult, because the crowd would have to turn around first, build three staircases, and only then could the last lemming be used to bash.

Rock, Paper, Scissors (Noisemaker 38): This level is supposed to teach the Stacker-Stoner trick. However, Colorful Arty and Flopsy found different solutions, that were still quite complex, but any player who would have found the same solution would have missed the opportunity to learn this trick. Therefore, I needed to restrict the possible solutions on this level even further. Only now does the level actually enforce the use of said trick, at least based on the replay I got from IchoTolot.

If you want to discuss the topic of "packs that teach advanced skill tricks to the player", we should probably split this off into a separate topic in the level-design subforum.


Regarding this pack, I still have some replays (created with NeoLemmix 12.6.5), but I also remember getting stuck somewhere. I actually went back to focus on Lemmings Reunion and NepsterLems first, because I had the feeling I needed to brush up on some more of my trick knowledge, as well.

That goes to show how difficult your pack is - when people go back to NepsterLems to adequately prepare for it.

Then again, this might simply be more of a self-confidence thing: I still remember NepsterLems as the most difficult pack out there, even though some claim that spot has now been taken by Lemmings United. Anyways, completing NepsterLems would probably give me the confidence - or hubris - to believe "if I can solve this, I can solve anything!" I think once you've beaten a difficult larger pack, you approach these smaller, but no less difficult packs (Integral Lemmings is another one that comes to mind) in a much more relaxed way.

[namida]

Then again, this might simply be more of a self-confidence thing: I still remember NepsterLems as the most difficult pack out there, even though some claim that spot has now been taken by Lemmings United. Anyways, completing NepsterLems would probably give me the confidence - or hubris - to believe "if I can solve this, I can solve anything!" I think once you've beaten a difficult larger pack, you approach these smaller, but no less difficult packs (Integral Lemmings is another one that comes to mind) in a much more relaxed way.

United is without a doubt harder than NepsterLems. I'm stuck in the 2nd rank in United. NepsterLems didn't have me completely stumped until about half way through the final rank. (Reunion I was able to complete, though I really struggled a lot towards the end.)

Don't let that weaken what NepsterLems signifies to you, though - it is still an incredibly hard pack, and any progress in the 3rd rank or later is very significant (and even the first two ranks are no pushovers for the most part).

[NieSch]

Funnily enough, my intention was to make a pack that wasn't too hard. Challenging sure, but you don't need to use a lot of advanced tricks to complete the levels. I think the most advanced it gets is:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

capturing a lemming by platforming, using a stacker to fill up terrain to spare a basher, release a blocker by bashing or mining and turning around lemmings performing different skills with a blocker.

[Strato Incendus]

United is without a doubt harder than NepsterLems. I'm stuck in the 2nd rank in United.

So it's not just me then. I felt bad for not making it any further during testing, thus not being able to help out IchoTolot more. But he deliberately recruited players of varying skill levels, to my knowledge, so I guess that was his intention all along.

@NieSch: I've attached my replays. I could solve all of Fun, as well as three levels each from Tricky and Taxing. I've looked at most of the Mayhem levels and tried some stuff, but nothing seems to work out quite as I want it to. The two levels from Tricky which I couldn't solve most definitely involve flow control, which I'm notoriously bad at, so I guess that explains why I had to skip those for the time being.

[NieSch]

Thanks for your replays, Strato. I already saw some interesting new solutions! But I can't see them all and one of them (Bashing Through the Snow) doesn't work anymore since they're from an old version of the pack. My fault for not keeping available older versions, sorry about that.

[Strato Incendus]

Actually, only keeping around the current version is what I'd suggest to keep doing! That way you avoid people going back to older versions to "cheat" by exploiting already-patched-out backroutes.
(Unless you mean keeping around the old versions just for yourself, so that you can watch the replays, but players only have access to the latest version. )

I must have missed some update then... or it's just been a while since I've actually made attempts at this pack.

To my knowledge, it hasn't been updated for NeoLemmix 12.7 yet, has it? I'm keeping 12.6.5 around to play any non-updated packs, yours being one of them. I have only updated Lemmings Reunion and United, NepsterLems, SEB Lems, and my own Lemmings World Tour, as well as moving my packs in-creation to 12.7. For LWT, I've kept the 12.6.5 versions of the levels as backups.

[NieSch]

Actually, only keeping around the current version is what I'd suggest to keep doing!

Ok!

To my knowledge, it hasn't been updated for NeoLemmix 12.7 yet, has it?

That's right. It seems to work fine in 12.7 without updating. I didn't make use of pick-up skills and there's only one level with fire pits but that seems to be fine still. Or am I overlooking something?

I will make an updated version soon though. Thanks to all the replays all of you have been sharing (thanks so much!) there are some new backroutes that I'd like to fix. One of them is your backroute of Signs To Guide You.

[WillLem]

To my knowledge, it hasn't been updated for NeoLemmix 12.7 yet, has it? I'm keeping 12.6.5 around to play any non-updated packs, yours being one of them.

I can confirm this pack works fine in 12.7.1, as do the replays.

Funnily enough, my intention was to make a pack that wasn't too hard. Challenging sure, but you don't need to use a lot of advanced tricks to complete the levels.

To be fair, these levels aren't too difficult to play through once you know the solution, but getting the solutions in the first place is very difficult. The levels are so intricate and a lot of them rely on a specific trick to unlock the secret. Examples would be:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Tricky 1 Marching in the Moonlight - knowing how to use the blockers is the secret to this one; Tricky 2 Signs to Guide You - this is a trick you yourself discovered by chance, and it's not something you'd think of straightaway by any means; Taxing 1 Cliff Diving - I had to watch your replay to know that fallers can drop into water and survive as long as they are made into swimmers on the way down!; Tarzan & Jane - knowing to make the lower-route Lemming shimmy along the bottom of the builder's steps whilst they're being built - genius!

A lot of these things may not be considered "advanced" perhaps, but they are all things that are difficult to spot even when you spend a good amount of time working your way around the level.

This isn't a complaint at all btw, and you should take all of the above as a compliment on your puzzle-making skills! I thoroughly enjoyed your pack, and I'm looking forward to your next one. Just know that you can make extremely difficult levels if you want to.

[Strato Incendus]

To be fair, these levels aren't too difficult to play through once you know the solution, but getting the solutions in the first place is very difficult. The levels are so intricate and a lot of them rely on a specific trick to unlock the secret.

Lol. No offense, but I think you haven't quite grasped the concept of a strict "puzzle" solution yet.

When faced with levels that adhere to the standard NeoLemmix philosophy, even though you can of course design your own levels according to whatever philosophy you prefer, you really need to understand a replay as a complete spoiler. Ideally, once the player knows the solution, the level shouldn't only be "not too difficult to play"; putting the solution into practice at this point should pose no challenge at all anymore - thanks to all the true-physics-, rewinding-, and framestepping features NeoLemmix offers.

In that sense, looking at the replay is not something you do to just "get a hint about the solution"; it's indeed equivalent to "giving up", "admitting defeat" to the level designer, and telling them "fair game, you've beaten me".  This is not an overstatement, as this is explicitly what some level designers are going for (IchoTolot, for example): To beat the player fair and square.

I for one like to see myself more like a Dungeon Master in a roleplaying game, whose aim is to challenge the player, but not to defeat them entirely.

In contrast to a complete replay, what you've provided in the spoiler tag here is indeed a hint - something that can help you a little step further, but doesn't spoil the entire solution yet right away. Especially your advice on "Tarzan & Jane" was very helpful! I like to use such tricks myself, but this particular one I haven't tried yet. So thanks a lot, I'll have to re-address this level again!



Overall, I still think no game outlines a strict puzzle philosophy more clearly than the Star Wars-spinoff "Pit Droids", although Lego Alpha Team is stylistically very similar. In these games, you have to plan the entire solution in advance, and once you release the crowd (i.e. what would be the lemmings in NeoLemmix), you cannot make any adjustments to your path or interfere in any other way anymore.

Lemmings was originally marketed as an "action puzzle". Games like Pit Droids remove that "action" part completely.

In NeoLemmix, obviously this can't be avoided completely, and I wouldn't want it to, either - I am still someone who likes to approach levels by trying things out in practice, rather than planning the entire solution in advance. Especially since things like timing and relative distance between lemmings are easy to misjudge. (Even in Pit Droids, you occasionally need to do a test run to find out that things don't work, and then go back to the drawing board.) But it's certainly nice to know that the levels have been created to include the option of solving them in advance, if you want to try.

[NieSch]

Update

- Levels cleansed for NeoLemmix 12.7
- Backroute fixes for: Tricky 2 (Signs to Guide You), Tricky 3 (Rough and Rocky) and Tricky 5 (Liftboy Wanted)

See the first post for the new attachment.

(Previous version was downloaded 63 times. Thanks guys! )

[NieSch]

Update

I tried to make the two Bonus levels a bit more challenging by making a few changes to the skill set and terrain of both levels.


The Amazing Rodents


The Yippee Finale

See the first post for the new attachment. (Also attached to the first post are the intended solutions.)

(The previous version of the pack was downloaded 162 times. )

[WillLem]

When faced with levels that adhere to the standard NeoLemmix philosophy, even though you can of course design your own levels according to whatever philosophy you prefer, you really need to understand a replay as a complete spoiler. Ideally, once the player knows the solution, the level shouldn't only be "not too difficult to play"; putting the solution into practice at this point should pose no challenge at all anymore - thanks to all the true-physics-, rewinding-, and framestepping features NeoLemmix offers.

This is why I try to design levels which are more action-oriented as well as puzzle-based. NeoLemmix does remove a lot of this element of the gameplay, which is fine, but there are ways to re-introduce some action element. I'm just learning to get the balance between what's tasteful (for example, having to time a walker to stop a glider-platformer so they glide off at the right time) and what's plain annoying (having to make 2 lems build up a narrow tube simultaneously).

As for what you've said about replays - it depends how much of the replay you watch, surely...? I sometimes just watch the first few actions to to get a clue as to how the rest of the level may unfold. And I only ever do this when it's a don't-even-know-where-to-start situation!

In that sense, looking at the replay is not something you do to just "get a hint about the solution"; it's indeed equivalent to "giving up", "admitting defeat" to the level designer, and telling them "fair game, you've beaten me".  This is not an overstatement, as this is explicitly what some level designers are going for (IchoTolot, for example): To beat the player fair and square.

Fair comment, this sort of competitive spirit certainly existed amongst the DMA team when they were designing the original game!

I for one like to see myself more like a Dungeon Master in a roleplaying game, whose aim is to challenge the player, but not to defeat them entirely.

I think I take a similar approach - I want people to figure out my levels, and I particularly enjoy it when someone finds a creative alternative solution or even a backroute. My new pack Lemminas has been specifically designed with multiple-possible solutions for most of the levels. There is, of course, the odd one that aims to enforce a particular solution or at least a single trick. But, I want to know that people will solve it, ultimately!

Lemmings was originally marketed as an "action puzzle"...In NeoLemmix, obviously this can't be avoided completely, and I wouldn't want it to, either - I am still someone who likes to approach levels by trying things out in practice, rather than planning the entire solution in advance. Especially since things like timing and relative distance between lemmings are easy to misjudge.

I concur - I'm definitely more of a let's-see-what-happens kind of player. I rarely use clear physics and almost never pause a level to look at the layout in the first attempt: I'll give it a go first, and then if I run into trouble I might pause it and have a look at that point.

I've been saying for a while now that I think NL should introduce some sort of "Classic Mode", which removes all convenient elements such as skill shadows, onscreen-hints, clear physics mode, animated traps and even framestepping, left/right selection and assign-whilst-pausing: I think this would be great to do even if only to see which community levels are even possible in this mode!

I have actually fashioned a version of NL which does this to some extent; there's no way to turn off clear physics and I can't figure out how to stop skill shadows, but most of the other things are just a case of either deleting the graphics or disabling all hotkeys. You can get pretty close to a "Classic Mode" by doing this. I just think it would be fun to implement as a switchable mode in-game or at least from the main menu, then we could have a challenge thread for some of the level packs designed for NL!

[NieSch]

Update

- Backroute fix for: Taxing 5 (Tarzan & Jane)

See the first post for the new attachment.

[kaywhyn]

I have finished the pack. Here is my entire replay collection for the pack. I also did an LP of the pack. Link is here: Kaywhyn's LP of Niesch's Yippee! More Lemmings. Enjoy!

Feedback on the Pack

Even for a 20 level pack, this pack is not a quick solve at all. Total time to solve the pack was about 6 hours. Pretty much all levels after the Fun rank gave me a challenge in some ways, although there were still some easy levels in the Tricky, Taxing, and Mayhem ranks. In the Fun rank, I say the hardest was Fun 2. This level is the first real puzzle after the very easy Fun 1 which is a 5-of-everything level. Since it is a really small level pack, it makes sense that the first puzzle level would be this early. I still really like the level a lot, though! Fun 5 definitely reminded me of Painless 1 from Lemmings Migration in that I still ended up struggling for about the same amount of time on each level. Honestly, I think it's a psychological thing when solving levels via LP. I likely wouldn't fumble my solutions as much if I had solved on my own off-camera. Then again, I don't mind the occasional silliness in my LPs, as I'm trying to also be entertaining while solving the levels. After all, I think LPs should be like that, since viewers are watching how someone else is solving their levels and hearing their thoughts on the solving process, and being entertaining from time to time in an LP is always a plus.

Once you get into the Tricky rank, I say there is somewhat of a jump in difficulty. This is evidenced by how I still ended up struggling with Tricky 1. I definitely had the solution, just couldn't quite get the beginning to work out the way I wanted it to when holding the crowd back. My favorite level of the rank was Tricky 2. I absolutely loved the

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

blocker turning a shimmier around trick. I honestly have never seen this shimmier interaction before, even though I have played so many shimmier levels before I played your pack. Nevertheless, I was able to figure out the trick on my own. I think it came to me while contemplating, "I need a way to turn the shimmier around." I think that's where I had the idea that the blocker had to be the answer.

I also really liked Tricky 3 a lot. Really nice 1-of-everything level that took me a while to figure out but in actuality isn't too hard. I like the solution a lot. Tricky 4 I wasn't too much of a fan due to all the fiddliness in the execution. Finally, even though Tricky 5 needed multiple videos, I still somewhat liked it. It looks quite intimidating from the very tall size of the level, but is not that hard either. The really small skillset means there aren't that many options available to try in the level, and so it doesn't take too long to stumble upon the solution.

The difficult puzzles continue with the Taxing rank. I say the hardest level in the rank is Taxing 2, with Taxing 1 probably a close second due to the puzzle and to an extent the time limit. Taxing 2 is the only other level in the pack that needed multiple videos, but luckily I was able to figure it out. It's really all about finding the most efficient route while conserving your skills as much as possible to ensure you have enough to get to the exit in the end. I say the most difficult button to get to is the one at the very top. Taxing 3 wasn't too bad, although I initially thought it was a bit unfair due to how the timing of catching the bottom lemmings is too tight. Turns out it wasn't as tight as I thought it was, perhaps due to my builder/platformer placements. Other than that part, it wasn't too hard of a level. For sure my favorite level of the rank is Taxing 5. Very nice solution, and you can even tell I was having fun with putting the lemmings in the form of characters from the movie/novel Tarzan. I called the bottom lemming Jane because of how much immediate danger that lemming is in, while the top lemming is of course Tarzan. It was initially a hard level, but once I figured out the first shimmier usage the rest was easy.

Finally, for Mayhem I must say that the levels in the rank were easier than some of the levels in earlier ranks. There wasn't really any level that stood out to me as very hard, but I would say the hardest in the rank was Mayhem 4, with Mayhem 2 probably a close second for hardest. I might had ended up backrouting Mayhem 4, though. The only hard part is the start, but after you figure out how to stop them from being in any danger, the rest of the level is somewhat easy. I do have a stacker leftover, though. I absolutely loved Mayhem 1 due to how the level title makes a reference to the mathematical theorem. I'm a math person, and I happen to be a math teacher, so I very well know it refers to the Pythagorean Theorem. The level itself is very similar to the Just a Minute levels from the original Lemmings. I also really liked Mayhem 3. Probably the easiest level in the entire rank. The solution doesn't take too much thought at all. Finally, Mayhem 5 is far from being the hardest level of the entire pack. It is difficult, but I think the hardest part is figuring out how to use the builders and avoiding the fire traps. Builders may be plentiful, but they surprisingly run out fast, and I ended up using all of them.

Even the two Bonus levels weren't that hard. I absolutely loved the design of the levels, though, especially Bonus 1. I love the lemming sprites in it. The only one I'm not sure about is the far left one. Is that supposed to be a bomber in the ohno animation? Bonus 1 still ends up being somewhat difficult, but is still easier than Bonus 2. Bonus 2 is hard only because it can get very overwhelming with the huge flood of lemmings everywhere and the several splitters that send lemmings in different directions and places. Nevertheless, there's not that many skills at all, and so it doesn't take too long to figure out where the skills go. It's still not easy to figure out where they should go, though. Before I made serious attempts at solving, you can see that I first decided to let the level play itself out without doing anything to see how many actually make it home before time runs out. Close to 200. Then I slowly used the skills 1 by 1 to see how much of an improvement or non-improvement it makes. When I just used the stacker where it was placed in the level, it made it worse. It's really just a matter of determining which splitters to avoid and keeping the specialists with their own group, i.e, floaters with floaters and gliders with gliders.

Overall, this is an excellent and very well-done pack. I absolutely enjoyed playing this pack a lot and especially the challenges that await within. When I had Tricky 5 as the first level in the pack where I needed multiple videos, I started to worry that said level and later ones would get too hard for me to figure out and solve in a reasonable amount of time on-camera. Luckily, I was able to figure them all out on my own, albeit with a lot of struggling on certain levels. The video lengths still ended up being an improvement over the ones in my 2 other LPs. Still, I can work on cutting down the lengths drastically.

With all this being said, I absolutely agree with your assessment that you were trying to make not a very hard pack but a challenging one. I believe you have succeeded in this regard. There were still some tough nuts, but none were over the top hard. I also thought the pack challenged me appropriately enough that I was still able to enjoy playing it. The pack sometimes did get overwhelming, but it wasn't bad enough to make me think about what I had gotten myself into. I guess beating your pack is redemption that I wasn't able to figure out your R1 contest level. I was able to figure out the rest. I'll get your R1 level one of these days, though. I'm sure it's a level where you at first need to keep the crowd going before containing them.

Again, nice job with this pack, and I can certainly highly recommend it! If you're feeling up for it and think you can handle this, go for it. You will love the challenges within

[NieSch]

Thanks for your extensive feedback, your kind compliments and your LP videos kaywhyn! Also well done on finishing the pack.

I haven't finished watching the LP yet, but I will soon. I already saw lots of intended solutions but also quite a few "backroutes" or unintended ones. Roughly speaking: the fiddly solutions are unintended ones. (Tricky 4, Tricky 5, Taxing 1, Taxing 4.) In the first post of this topic I attached my intended solutions.

I'll make some updates soon to try and make your "fiddly solutions" impossible.

[kaywhyn]

Great to hear from you, Niesch This is definitely a great pack, and as I have said before, it might be small, but it's still tough. I didn't struggle with it as much as I thought I would, but I still enjoyed this pack very much and would highly recommend others play it if they haven't yet. Also, I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying my LP of your pack. Have you considered doing such a thing as well? You seem like an extremely adept level solver yourself. Although, there's plenty of examples of people here who are great at solving but not making levels, eg, me (although I'm speaking too soon, since I have yet to get into the level making scene, therefore it's a bit premature for me to say that I'm not good at level designing, but for the most part I prefer to solve levels rather than make levels ), or vice versa.

As for what you still haven't seen, I feel like the only other level that hasn't been mentioned that needs fixing is Mayhem 4, but of course that's if you decide it indeed needs fixing after watching the rank. Of course, if you wanted to you could just simply watch the replay. All the solutions you see in the LP are the exact same solutions you see in the replay collection I attached in the previous post. That doesn't mean the LP is pointless, though. It's still fun to watch just so you can see my level solving process in action, as well as hear my thoughts From the LPs I've done so far, everyone who has seen them seems to be enjoying them. The pack authors especially have been kind enough to tell me that they're liking my LPs a lot Since my LPs are getting quite the positive reception, I have decided that I'm going to keep doing more of them. I may not be the best person at explaining things when recording, but I'm still willing to do LPs. I've never been that good at social speaking despite English being my native language, but I'm doing it because I felt like this would be a fun experience and this community could always use more LPers with audio I'm definitely enjoying myself a lot when I'm LPing, and as long as that is the case that's all that matters to me. Even better, I try to be make them entertaining too!

[NieSch]

Update

After watching kaywhyn's LP (thanks again!) I changed four levels:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

tricky 1: placed a bit of landscape higher so that the solution is not as pixel perfect as it was
tricky 5: added a piece of steel to prevent kaywhyn's "digging all the way down" part (so that you must use the teleporter)
taxing 1: changed the cliff at the left to prevent digging down, placed steel at the bottom left and right to the large one-way-arrow mountain, locked the release rate
taxing 3: added a piece of steel to prevent bashing in a certain place (so that you must use a digger to free half of the crowd)

The updated version of the pack can be found in the first post of this thread.