Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack  (Read 29385 times)

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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #60 on: November 16, 2019, 10:45:58 PM »

Ah - is this set to automatically assign whichever key the user has specified as the hotkey to the text? In that case, this makes sense as I've assigned time-skipping duties to mouse clicks (L-forward 1 frame/R-backward 1 frame) rather than keys. Would this explain the issue?

Exactly. :)

Offline joshescue18

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #61 on: November 24, 2019, 12:11:20 AM »
I have completed the pack so far.

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #62 on: November 24, 2019, 12:29:23 AM »
I have completed the pack so far.

This is the kind of pack where just giving replays without any further feedback really isn't all that useful. The goal of this pack is to introduce new players to NeoLemmix, so comments on how well it does that (or what could be improved in regards to that) are much more helpful than replays here. Of course, other feedback is almost always useful; but this pack is unique in that it's the more important aspect.
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Online WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #63 on: November 24, 2019, 02:11:18 AM »
It's a great pack, there are some enjoyable levels and as a NeoLemmix beginner I have found it really useful in getting to grips with some of the new skills - there's no way I could have taken on the all-new-skills challenge without having had a look at this pack first (or, I would have struggled a lot with it at first).

Constructive feedback: I'd just look again at the pre-screens and make sure that they're as clear as possible. I've noticed a few typos and mis-wordings (some examples below):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm happy to proof-read all of the pre-screen texts for you if you'd prefer to delegate this particular task elsewhere; PM them to me and I'll have a look as soon as I get the chance.

Some positive feedback:

I think you do a great job of keeping the levels fun and interesting whilst also presenting enough of a challenge so they don't just feel like boring tutorial levels. The pack in general is great for this reason.

Favourite Levels:

Top-Down Approach takes a couple of looks to solve even though it's quite straightforward
The Reacharound is a great puzzle - took me a while to unlock the secret to this one
Chalk-Walk is a great concept, and a new one on me. It's inspired me to have a go at making a level like this
The Joy Of Sorting looks incredibly ominous at first glance, but it's just a question of making sure you do things in the correct order!
Blocked In Your Favour does a great job of combining the skills used in the previous few levels; takes a few looks to get right!
Double Down and Equal Distribution - probably my biggest favourites of the whole pack; I love cloners!
Fancy Fencer :thumbsup:

I've attached replays for all the Basic Training levels - very much enjoyed playing through these.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 02:29:16 AM by WillLem »

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #64 on: December 08, 2019, 03:17:30 PM »
I completely forgot to respond to Willem. I've read the message and looked through the replays though. ;P

V 0.14 is out! :)

A level has been added as the new rank 2 finisher:

- Neutral Response (Introduction to neutral lemmings)

Quote
This is the kind of pack where just giving replays without any further feedback really isn't all that useful. The goal of this pack is to introduce new players to NeoLemmix, so comments on how well it does that (or what could be improved in regards to that) are much more helpful than replays here. Of course, other feedback is almost always useful; but this pack is unique in that it's the more important aspect.

Well, it still resulted in this: ;)

Backroute fixes:

- 3 20 (extra steel)
- 3 30 (extra fencer pick up)

I also patched up the spelling mistakes and slight unclarities Willem pointed out. :)

Thanks again for the feedback! :thumbsup:

Quote
I'm happy to proof-read all of the pre-screen texts for you if you'd prefer to delegate this particular task elsewhere; PM them to me and I'll have a look as soon as I get the chance.

Will do that for rank 4. ;)

Offline DireKrow

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2020, 12:07:03 AM »
I am a fairly new lemmings player. I've played Fun through Taxing of the original, but nothing else. Skills that weren't in the original are new to me. I thought I'd give my perspective as I play through.

General Comments:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Level specific comments:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Attached are my replays so far and the alternate (unintended?) solution to Block & Blow
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 12:19:55 PM by DireKrow »
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Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2020, 06:57:47 AM »
Quote
From the perspective of a brand new lemmings player, I think the release rates are a little high across the board in Skills and Objects.

If you're comparing to the release rates in the DOS / Amiga / etc games, do keep in mind that NeoLemmix release rates aren't equivalent to the same number RR in DOS. A DOS release rate of 1 would be RR 50 in NeoLemmix (with NL's RR 1 being much slower than any valid value in DOS).

The reasoning behind this is that, in DOS, every two consecutive values are identical in terms of their in-game effects. For example, there's no difference between 98 and 99. NeoLemmix "un-duplicates" these values, then uses the extra space created (values below 50) for new, even-slower RRs.
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Offline DireKrow

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2020, 07:19:40 AM »
Quote
From the perspective of a brand new lemmings player, I think the release rates are a little high across the board in Skills and Objects.

If you're comparing to the release rates in the DOS / Amiga / etc games, do keep in mind that NeoLemmix release rates aren't equivalent to the same number RR in DOS. A DOS release rate of 1 would be RR 50 in NeoLemmix (with NL's RR 1 being much slower than any valid value in DOS).

The reasoning behind this is that, in DOS, every two consecutive values are identical in terms of their in-game effects. For example, there's no difference between 98 and 99. NeoLemmix "un-duplicates" these values, then uses the extra space created (values below 50) for new, even-slower RRs.

Nah, I played the NL conversion of them. I'm unfamiliar with the actual original release rate. I just based the comment on how I felt.

To elaborate: In a lot of the Skills levels there is no actual danger, so release rate wouldn't impact the solution. But a low release rate means it's easier to see how mechanics work in isolation. You can see how a miner's animation digs out its tunnel without a bunch of lemmings getting in the way of it. You can see the dig/bash/mine/build zones of lemmings when you hover them without it flickering as other lemmings walk past. You can easily pick the lemmings you want to assign skills to without accidental misclicks. Things like that. My philosophy would be to err on the conservative side of release rates in early aimed-at-new-players tutorial puzzles. Reduces stress, increases clarity.

I remember while doing the Fencer/Miner level the first time, I stopped and had a look at where I needed to go next for a few seconds, and by the time I'd gotten back to my lemmings, the hole they were in was filled up. New player would have a bear of a time trying to mine correctly in the situation.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 11:28:22 AM by DireKrow »
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Online Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2020, 06:07:20 PM »
Playing through the latest version of the pack. My feedback on the first three ranks as they are now:

Rank 1 - Skills (click to show/hide)

Rank 2 - Objects & Functions (click to show/hide)

Rank 3 - Basic Training (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 10:48:30 PM by Proxima »

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2020, 06:23:18 PM »
Intro text says "None" for clear physics mode even though I have it assigned to "C". One to take up with namida....

After some just-digging, I realised why this is. Your intro text includes "[HOTKEY:Clear_Physics:1]", where the "1" means that your clear physics hotkey is set to hold-down rather than toggle. Since the user could have separate hotkeys for clear physics hold-down and toggle, I guess it makes sense that this functionality exists, but I would suggest that "[HOTKEY:Clear_Physics]" should show any clear physics mode hotkey the user has.

I suspect DireKrow's issue with the "next shrugger" hotkey has a similar cause, though it's harder for me to investigate that one as I don't have any hotkey assigned to that.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2020, 08:44:53 PM »
Thanks for the feedback! :thumbsup:

Especially feedback from new players is quite valuable here.

My Comments:

Quote
- From the perspective of a brand new lemmings player, I think the release rates are a little high across the board in Skills and Objects. See my second post in the thread for some elaboration.

That or the overall lemming count can be adjusted a little. Although getting the player used to higher RRs is a thing that should be done early.

Quote
- In pretexts, referencing the pixel counts feels. weird. I don't think it's more helpful than just saying that lemmings die if they fall too far, for example. Perhaps mention the 64 pixels thing when the ruler is introduced?
Quote
1-4 I agree with DireKrow about the awkwardness of mentioning the exact fall height. This is the first level where the player needs to understand they can scroll to see more of the level; should this be mentioned?

It may be not more helpful for everyone, but I do think mention the exact mechanic even this early on is only fair and it doesn't do harm in my opinion.

Quote
- There's some issues where for me, in the description, the hotkey says <None> even though I have a hotkey assigned. For example, go-to-next-shrugger is 8 by default, but the description prior to Big Steps Through The Snow just says <None>. Just thought I'd mention it. Also, highlight lemming is not right-click by default (as stated by the Highlights With A Safety Net pretext), it's actually Ctrl+Click.

The <None> cases are probably something for namida to check. The standard layouts should at least assign the keys introduced here.

My mistake will be fixed.

Quote
Skills 2. Let's Take A Bash At It! - Also great. I really like the fact you included a staircase to show that not all bashing targets are flat vertical walls. However, I'm not sure what the pillar above the staircase shows that the three pillars in the middle don't already.

The answer is simple: Repetition. It's one of the best way to let lessons sink in. Rpeat until something burns into the players mind.

Quote
Skills 5. Block and Blow In The Snow - Good. I particularly like the the miniature puzzle at the end. A new player must figure out how to go down and turn around at the same time. For example, they might be tempted to put a blocker at the ice tip, only to realize it becomes useless when they the bomb the ice. Good learning opportunity. It's possible to complete this level without using any blockers, which might be unintended. See attachment.

That is unintended, yes. I think I will do a little fix even if this is probably not the way people solve it the first time.

Quote
Skills 7. Building Flat and Building High - Cool, but too hard? I'd DEFINITELY let a new player get a feel for 1 bridge or 1 platformer at a time in a safe, convenient environment before asking them to chain multiple bridges together, build over water, or build through weirdly shaped terrain. It's important to master these skills ASAP, so maybe the trial by fire is warranted, but this stage definitely feels way tougher than anything else in the tier.

I can put it a few places later, but I especially don't want a completely safe environment here. I think it's an extremely important lesson that losing lemmings is ok when the save requirement allows it and players should learn it as early as possible.

Quote
Skills 9. Amphibious Engineer Squad - Good. I like how it demonstrates that water can break long falls and that one disarmer can disarm multiple traps. What happens if a swimmer meets a wall, though?

It turns, I could implement that lesson.

Quote
Skills 10. Walking On The Cloner Cliffs - Don't like this one. The fact you can just walk the lemming to the exit and then spam clone in front of it feels really cheap. Doesn't really demonstrate what walkers or cloners can do.

I willl make a slight modification that you can't just clone next to the exit. But I won't show more of the skills just yet. Cloners and walkers, if used to their fully extent are a can of worms better to open a tiny bit later step by step in multiple levels focussing on one or a few more aspects. Trust me there.

Quote
Objects 2. Iron Anthill - A little overwhelming. I think the same concepts could have been taught with a smaller level. Looks fun to optimize, though.

That's totally intended. Every section is completely safe and therefore there is no rush. But players need to experience and handle larger vertical levels. So you should take your time at the start and form a plan for one section after the other.

Quote
Objects 7. Pick Them Up and Push Them Down - Very nice looking level. A nice introduction to its concepts, as well. Is there supposed to be a one pixel seam between the terrain and steel?

Well, that's a fix. :P

Quote
Objects 9. Beam Them Over - Great. Fantastic presentation. At first, I wasn't sure about the claustrophobic digging, but I suspect you're using it to bunch the lemmings up so they don't get teleported without picking up the pickups, so it's fine. Are the pickups necessary, though? I think the level works the same if you just gave 3 builders to start with.

They are indeed not nessesary. They should just represent some breadcrumps you need to pick up on the way.

Quote
Objects 10. Gravity Lab - Cool. It took a couple of attempts to realize the order I needed to assign the skills and how I had to use the second builder. I like how it demonstrates that small delays can make a big difference. Is there a reason why a fencer is provided, rather than a basher? I think a basher would tempt someone to use it to bypass the splat pad, only to find out they needed to save it for the end.

The fencer is just for skill variety, nothing more.

Quote
Objects 11. Stop, Rewind And Go! - Tough puzzle. It does a good job of show casing pause and rewind, but it's pretty challenging for a tutorial, since it involves many different skills and the solution isn't obvious.

That's the problem of the topic: Anything requiring rewind is not tutorial easy and just having builders be assigned to everything is not that exciting at all.
That's also a point, even if this is only the object rank I do intend getting slowly more difficult. The levels should require some thinking in my opinion even if they are just a tutorial.

How long did it take you to solve the level if I may ask? That would be a good indicator for me to see if that was still in acceptable territory or indeed too hard.

Quote
Objects 12. Big Steps Through The Snow - The final bridge is annoyingly precise... which is good, since it forces people to use the hotkeys. I'm really surprised at how much easier the hotkeys make building. This level single-highhandedly changed my entire playstyle!

Yes, that's the reason for it. You really want to use those hotkeys. I always have my fingers on pause and fast forward for example.

Quote
Objects 14. Highlights With A Safety Net - Don't like this one. It's odd that this is the highlight lemming tutorial, when the puzzle is instead about realizing that you can shortcut long falls using miners, and that you can build spiral staircases. Consequently, it feels out of place. More like a basic training level than a skill/object tutorial. I think spamming floaters would be fine to create a sense of 'doing two things at once', even if it makes the puzzle less interesting.

That's a surprise for me. I guess this is a case where things appear so trivial that you don't even realise that they need explaining. Spamming floaters is a bit boring though. Would a few diggers on top of the miners help you here as well?

Quote
The cloner pickup feels unnecessary since you don't really duplicate a skill with it

Let's just say that this sentence is not correct. ;)   It is very often the case in lemmings that you just clone for the extra lemming or the direction change.

Quote
Basic Training 1. Tower of Training - I like that the level goes from bottom to top, rather than top to bottom. I also like that it's mostly safe for lems and has an abundance of skills, allowing for peaceful experimentation. Perfect for a first level of basic training. Floaters, diggers and miners all feel pretty useless, though. While I understand that figuring out which skills are more useful is part of the tutorial, I think some small design tweaks facilitate routes that actually use these skills. Also, I don't like the graves at the bottom of the level. It's easy for lems to get stuck between them and freeing them is more annoying than interesting.

Get stuck, free yourself. That is the reason the graves are there. There are so many cases in levels where your rodents get stuck exactly like this, I just want to prepare you again here, even if that means being a little annoying. ;)

Quote
Basic Training 5. Scrap The Buttons! - Tough. This stumped me for several attempts. I suspect my solution is not the intended solution. I really struggled with finding a way to prepare the path and hit both buttons without a lemming dying or getting stuck. Should probably be after Limited Release, if not later. Realizing I could get the glider to fly again by boosting it up with a builder was a really cool discovery, though.

I agree, will move this.

Quote
Basic Training 7. Backup Wall - Decent. I like the visual design. Using three builders to make a wall is really precise. Took several attempts to make it work, even with frame advance. I think the ground in the starting area should be flat, because the bumps make it hard to make the wall.

I will flatten a hill then.

Quote
Basic Training 11. Central Fear - Great. The fact lemmings can alternate which way they come out of the window was an unexpected surprise! The level looks intimidating, but turned out to a lot easier than it looked. I actually think this could go earlier in the level list. Directly after Steely Halls, maybe?

I think you pointed me at a good swapping candidate for the button level here. ;)

Quote
Basic Training 14. Chalk Walk - Also great. I'm actually surprised by how lenient you were - I placed most of my blockers pixel perfectly and ended up with a huge amount of spare time. Maybe you should shorten the pack's path a little?

Well, I do intended that no blockers needs to be perfect. That can add up quite a bit. You will encounter enough precision during later levels.

Quote
Basic Training 15. The Joy of Sorting - Not a fan. While it was a fun concept like the first time, I think this is too similar to Getting Into Sortings. The first half of the puzzle is almost exactly the same. Also, as a tutorial, I'm not sure what purpose this level serves.

Purpose: Repetiton, training. No new lesson here.

Quote
I remember while doing the Fencer/Miner level the first time, I stopped and had a look at where I needed to go next for a few seconds, and by the time I'd gotten back to my lemmings, the hole they were in was filled up. New player would have a bear of a time trying to mine correctly in the situation.

Reading this, maybe instead of lowring the release rate, I should introduce the pause button earlier on. I think that's a good idea. Normally when you look at/think about/freshly enter a level you should hit pause. If you are not looking diectly at your lemmings the pause button should be on. Pause THE essential button of the game. It should come as early as level 1 or 2. 

Quote
2-4 Any particular reason why tracks orig_16 and 17 are skipped? Not complaining, just curious

I habe no idea why, didn't even know that they were skipped. :P


Also thanks to Proxima for the grammar related suff. :)

Note to myself: Mention skill shadows a bit more. :P


I will either implement these changes with introduction of the 4th rank or a bit earlier.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 08:57:00 PM by IchoTolot »

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2020, 10:50:24 PM »
I have no idea why, didn't even know that they were skipped. :P

The culprit is the music.nxmi file, which is missing the lines TRACK orig_16 and TRACK orig_17. You can add these back if it's not deliberate. Though 16 is one of the more annoying tracks, so I won't complain if you leave this unfixed! :P

Offline DireKrow

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2020, 11:14:15 PM »
Second half of Basic Training:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Attached are the replays of my first successful solutions
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2020, 07:43:01 PM »
I will include fixes based on your feedback when I finished rank 4.

Sorry for being slow here, but right now exams and other stuff are also requiring some attention and the last 2 months or so I've been lacking a bit in the ideas+inspiration departement as well. :P

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #74 on: May 10, 2020, 02:23:47 PM »
V 0.15 is out!

Rank 3 got split up into 2 ranks: The first 14 level were punt into the new rank 3 and the other 16 were put into the new rank 5.

New levels:

- 2 03 (introduction of deadly level sides)

- 3 03 (Builders hitting heads)
- 3 08 (Spiral staircases)
- 3 09 (Training: Blockers and spiral staircases)
- 3 15 (Shimmier + walker)
- 3 16 (Training: Shimmier + walker + glider)

- 4 05 (Teleporter does not reset distance fallen)
- 4 06 (Builder + platformer turn trick)
- 4 07 (Training: Teleporter does not reset distance fallen, Builder + platformer turn trick)

- Rank 5 "Advanced Training" has been added with 19 new levels.

Changes:

- A bunch of spelling errors.

- Music rotation includes orig 16+17 now.

- 1 01 (Text mentiones Pause right away now)
- 1 03 (Reduced RR and lem count)
- 1 05 (Backroute fix, +5 bombers)
- 1 07 (Text mentions that lemming losses are acceptable)
- 1 09 (Demonstrates now that swimmers turn if they swim into a wall)
- 1 10 (Changed exit area so that lems can walk out to the right now)

- 2 01 (reduced decoration)
- 2 03 <--> 2 04
- 2 08 (fixed visual error)
- 2 09 (Text mentiones now that splitters cannot be deactivated)
- 2 15 (Does not require a spiral staircase anymore, -8 builders)

- 3 06 <--> 3 14
- 3 10 (Reduced RR, flattened starting area)
- 3 13 (Test now mentiones multiple pick-up skils and that gliders bounce off walls)
- 3 14 (Made blocker spot clearer now and added steel)
- 3 17 (Widened 3rd gap by 1 pixel)

- 4 02 (Text now mentiones that the crowd should be contained)
- 4 03 (Text now mentiones that the digger holding pit can be affected by RR and terrain)
- 4 13 (New helper pre text)
- 4 14 (Backroute fix)
- 4 17 (Text now provides more hints)