Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack  (Read 29399 times)

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Offline IchoTolot

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[NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« on: August 08, 2019, 08:36:00 PM »
Link to the release topic: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5204.0


Hey there, I am currently working on the new NeoLemmix Introduction Pack which shall smoothly introduce completely new players into Lemmings and NeoLemmix.

Before making any level, I thought it would be a good idea to put a list of planned ranks (themes) with the content they shall introduce together.

So I quickly made such a list and want to ask around if there might be anything I missed. The rank names are also not final. ;)

Theme 1: Skills

- Digger
- Basher
- Miner
- Fencer
- Builder
- Platformer
- Stacker
- Walker
- Cloner
- Blocker
- Bomber
- Stoner
- Climber
- Floater
- Glider
- Swimmer
- Disarmer
- Shimmier
- Release Rate (Yes I would could this as skill related)
- Nuke (This as well)

Theme 2: Objects/Special terrain/Lemming variants --> "Interactables" maybe? (need a good name here)

- Steel
- Multiple-Hatches + Exits
- Pre-assigned Lemmings + Hatches
- Limited-count exits and entrances
- OWW (left/right)
- OWW down
- OWW up
- One-way fields
- Traps (+ single use Traps)
- Pick-up skills
- Locked Exits and Buttons
- Teleporters
- Updrafts
- Splat-pads/Anti Splat-pads
- Decorative objects
- Splitters
- Zombies

Theme 3: Functions

- Time Limits (I am unsure about putting this here)
- Vertical Scrolling
- Fast-Forward
- Directional-Select
- Priority invert
- Splat-Ruler
- Framestepping
- Clear-Physics-Mode
- Highlight Lemming
- Save-States

Theme 4: Easy skill combinations and beginner puzzles

- Athletes introduction
- Bomberless Blocker release
- Blocker substitudes (Digger holding pit, Stackers, Stoners, Stalling)
- Basic mechanics: Stepping up 6 pixels but not 7; skill-users turning on blockers; bashers ascending on a steel edge; Compression Method; interrupted basher/miner

Of course things like Fast Forward and Clear-Physics-Mode will be introduced through a little text in combination with an under normal circumstances badly designed level where the respected function will be a blessing (Example hidden traps for Clear-Physics-Mode). ;)

Alright, anything I missed or something shall be resorted? ??? Also I plan plan to create this rank by rank with releasing a public test version after a new rank is finished to get proper fedback from as many people as possible as this is something the whole forum is benefitting from.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2020, 04:33:57 PM by IchoTolot »

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2019, 11:17:32 PM »
I agree that a new introduction pack sounds like a great idea, but I think it needs some really careful thinking about structure if we're going to make it as good as it can be.

First, a few things you've missed:
* One-way fields
* Splitters
* Limited-count exits and entrances
* Splat ruler
* Should there be a "mechanics" rank, separately or combined with your rank 4? This could include things like stepping up 6 pixels but not 7; skill-users turning on blockers; bashers ascending on a steel edge; Compression Method; interrupted basher/miner... it's quite a wide field, but those are a few examples of things we take for granted that new players won't know yet.

Now let's talk about structure. Do you envisage a separate level for each skill, object and function? I'm very wary of that, since it sounds like you would have forty-two trivial levels before we even reach the "beginner puzzles". The pack needs to introduce everything clearly, for sure, but it should also be fun to play -- otherwise new players probably won't get all the way through it.

Also, you introduce fast forward in rank 3, but a majority of levels are more pleasant to play when the player knows about FF, so that they can speed through the rest of the level as soon as the route is complete. (When I was a kid, my sister and I always enjoyed watching the crowd walk to the exit and cheering them on -- but NL isn't aimed at kids.) Similar remarks apply to most control features.

I would, at the very least, drop the "control features" rank and decide where to introduce these features in the natural play of rank 1 (e.g. directional select can be introduced with one of the skills it's frequently used with, probably builders). Some levels can introduce more than one skill. At a rough guess, I would say the full introduction of all NL features could be done in around 20 levels, and would be much the better for it.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2019, 12:00:54 PM »
I've added the things you listed. Also I plan to introduce a few basic mechanics in rank 4 as well, like the ones you mentioned, I've added them to the list as well.

Quote
Now let's talk about structure. Do you envisage a separate level for each skill, object and function? I'm very wary of that, since it sounds like you would have forty-two trivial levels before we even reach the "beginner puzzles". The pack needs to introduce everything clearly, for sure, but it should also be fun to play -- otherwise new players probably won't get all the way through it.

You are right that this may be overkill, but I also want the introduction as easy as possible. As I result, I should start with a few seperate introductions and then move on to some double introductions (like floaters+gliders for example). This middle way should cull the level number by a bit.

Quote
Also, you introduce fast forward in rank 3, but a majority of levels are more pleasant to play when the player knows about FF, so that they can speed through the rest of the level as soon as the route is complete. (When I was a kid, my sister and I always enjoyed watching the crowd walk to the exit and cheering them on -- but NL isn't aimed at kids.) Similar remarks apply to most control features. I would, at the very least, drop the "control features" rank and decide where to introduce these features in the natural play of rank 1 (e.g. directional select can be introduced with one of the skills it's frequently used with, probably builders). Some levels can introduce more than one skill. At a rough guess, I would say the full introduction of all NL features could be done in around 20 levels, and would be much the better for it.

I was unsure about FF. I think it should be introduced still. I planned to make the skill introduction levels not much larger than 1 screeners so that FF would not be essential. But I could at least mention FF earlier.
For the rest, I think here comes the combination idea into play again: I could drop the rank entirely and combine them with rank 4 so they give some trivial puzzels more meaning. I think it would be better if I rename rank to theme for my list and only later form rank groupings.

I am still highly in favor of keeping skills mostly seperated from other themes as the core element should be introduced as clearly as possible without distractions. Combining skill inroductions though should be alright.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2019, 06:10:55 PM »
If there is no further input here, I will soon start to create the first levels. :)

Offline Crane

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2019, 06:26:06 PM »
I'm not sure where this fits in, if anywhere, but I do think the "Wild 15 Glitch" (digger changes direction if another lemming nearby is made a blocker, even though said blocker is instantly released) needs to be introduced somehow, because the lack of initial visual feedback and its niche use make it easily overlooked by someone not in the know.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2019, 06:41:58 PM »
I'm not sure where this fits in, if anywhere, but I do think the "Wild 15 Glitch" (digger changes direction if another lemming nearby is made a blocker, even though said blocker is instantly released) needs to be introduced somehow, because the lack of initial visual feedback and its niche use make it easily overlooked by someone not in the know.

It definitely can in the last rank where some basic level solving skills and essential tricks are introduced. I would consider the "digger-blocker combination" easy enough to understand for new players and of essential level solving knowledge, as it is used quite regulary.

In general, with tricks there is a line to draw here. An introduction pack should, out of the near endless ammount of tricks, only introduce easy ones that are of essential level solving knowledge (like digger holding pits for example).

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2019, 11:03:13 PM »
I guess a good test for whether or not to include a trick, would be either (a) it's used in what appears to be an intended solution in an official level, or (b) it's used very commonly in custom content. (For example, using constructive skills to add terrain that keeps a destructive skill going - as far as I recall this is never used in any official level, but it's a very common custom level trick, so I'd say it should be in there.)

Perhaps A should be amended to "unless it only occurs in a single level and the trick is the entire level", such as the "I Am AT" trick (although perhaps that one's been done to death enough in custom levels that it qualifies under B anyway... :P ).
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Offline Crane

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2019, 04:29:41 AM »
Generally the Wild 15 Glitch doesn't appear too often in my experience, so it's something that catches people by surprise.  The other reason is because I still want to see if a level can guide a player towards the trick so they can complete it without having to jump through so many logical hoops or be explicitly told it... my criteria for embracing that trick/glitch.

Another 'trick' level... building a step on a steel plate and mining to turn around.  Very common trick.  Though not really intended on any official level, it can be used to solve "Fall and no life (part two)" (the original 2-miner version) by letting the pathfinder float towards the exit, then using the two tools to turn around on the steel walkway, instead of building across to the water pit first.

EDIT: Actually, never mind... there's another solution that uses the trick and only uses one miner overall (replay created from Lunatic 32 of Lemmings Redux).
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 04:40:31 AM by Crane »

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2019, 09:49:32 PM »
I've finished the skill introduction rank and added a download link of the first beta version of the pack to the main post. :)

I am especially unsure about the pre-level texts. If you find any spelling errors, point them out to me.

I appreciate all kinds of feedback! :)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2019, 10:31:10 PM »
Great job, IchoTolot! :thumbsup: I really like the skill-pair combinations you went with - they all seem like each other's logical counterparts (blockers and bombers; climbers and shimmiers; floaters and gliders; builders and platformers; miners and fencers; walkers and cloners, etc.)

Also, they look really pretty! I'm happy you've put so much work into "stylizing" even these easier levels, because that makes them feel like actual, original DMA Lemmings level to me.

Two levels (2 and 11) I can't play though, because of a missing "flame_deco" piece in the Marble tileset?

I'm pretty sure I just recently updated my style folder with the newest release. ???

Some remarks:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2019, 10:46:29 PM »
Thanks for the feedback.

Quote
Two levels (2 and 11) I can't play though, because of a missing "flame_deco" piece in the Marble tileset?

Oh yes, these tiles were non-standard special tiles. I've removed them from the levels.

Quote
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That is more advanced stuff that would go into the last rank where I go into some basic tricks. In this rank only the basics are taught.

Quote
In the climber-shimmier level, you call both of them permanent skills. Shimmiers aren't permanent skills, though ;) .

Yeah, I screwed up there. :XD: I've corrected the text.

And with that:

V 0.02 is out!

- Removed the non-standard tiles.
- Reworked the introduction text of the stoner/stacker level.

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2019, 11:39:47 PM »
Regarding the beta,

General - some of the preview texts seem really compressed into the middle of the screen, with not much vertical spacing between paragraphs. Each line can be up to 40 characters iirc.

Climber / Shimmier level - At some point, I think this should show the "climber hits head and turns around" behaviour. I realise this technically happens when they reach the chain, but it's not very visible what's going on there.
Builder / Platformer level - "If both skills build..." in the introduction text, I think "If either skill builds..." is more natural sounding here. Very minor detail.

Those points aside, seems pretty good so far!
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Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2019, 04:59:53 AM »
This is very good. The level aesthetics are excellent, the number of levels is good and the skills paired together make sense.

I noted some small issues with the intro texts as I was going along, so when I have time I'll look through them again and make a detailed post. I also think some of them (especially the first) may be too wordy and this may be a bit tricky for new players to take in all the information. It may be a good idea to think about what's really important to say and what can be left for the player to infer.

For the shorter texts, I think what you've done with splitting them up into a larger number of shorter lines is actually a good thing. The font used isn't very readable in long paragraphs, but having shorter lines helps make it a lot friendlier.

The only real playability issue I noticed is that in Level 5, you mention the 64-pixel splat height, but users won't be happy about counting pixels, so the splat ruler should really be introduced here. Indeed, it might be introduced on Level 4, since the player needs to know that the fall from the second snow platform is deadly.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2019, 11:04:53 AM »
Thanks again for the feedback! :thumbsup:

V 0.03 is out!

- Swapped level 4 and 5 so that the intro text for the shimmier/climber level has the introduction to splat falls.
- Reworked the shimmier/climber level so that there is a clear situation where the climber hit their heads.
- Reworded the text in the builder/platformer level.
- Reworded the text in the nuke level, so that it specifically says double-click the nuke button.

Quote
General - some of the preview texts seem really compressed into the middle of the screen, with not much vertical spacing between paragraphs. Each line can be up to 40 characters iirc.

Quote
For the shorter texts, I think what you've done with splitting them up into a larger number of shorter lines is actually a good thing. The font used isn't very readable in long paragraphs, but having shorter lines helps make it a lot friendlier.

I am with Proxima here with the fact that shorter lines are better to read. It is also very hard to word the text in the level file without instant visualisation on how it will actually look. The texts often took longer to make than the level! :P

Quote
I noted some small issues with the intro texts as I was going along, so when I have time I'll look through them again and make a detailed post. I also think some of them (especially the first) may be too wordy and this may be a bit tricky for new players to take in all the information. It may be a good idea to think about what's really important to say and what can be left for the player to infer.

I tried to be as short as possible and I think the information there is nessesary to give. If you can compress the texts more though (and test if they can indeed be displayed in NL), write them in here and I can include them. I am not a very great writer and displaying information in as little words as possible can be very tricky.

Quote
, you mention the 64-pixel splat height, but users won't be happy about counting pixels, so the splat ruler should really be introduced here.

The exact splat ruler will have a dedicated level where there will be some close calls. But if you want I can now just say "they splat if they fall too high distances" and give the exact definition later in the splat ruler level. The cases here should be clear so that just a fall warning should be enough.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2019, 06:51:50 PM »
Looks good so far! For the most part the skill combinations make sense, but there is one that I think could use a little reconsideration: walkers and cloners, in my opinion, didn't really demonstrate the behavior of either skill very well, which could result in the player having forgotten the information about each skill presented in the text by the time a level requests them to make use of it. Show, don't tell, after all.

Behaviors of cloners not demonstrated:
 - Skills (e.g. miners, builders) continue after use.
Behaviors of walkers not demonstrated:
 - Cancels skill in use.
 - Can be assigned to blockers.

I've attached replays.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 07:05:17 PM by Dullstar »

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2019, 07:02:49 PM »
Thanks for the replays. :)

Looks good so far! For the most part the skill combinations make sense, but there is one that I think could use a little reconsideration: walkers and cloners, in my opinion, didn't really demonstrate the behavior of either skill very well, which could result in the player having forgotten the information about each skill presented in the text by the time a level requests them to make use of it. Show, don't tell, after all.

Behaviors of cloners not demonstrated:
 - Skill continues after use.
Behaviors of walkers not demonstrated:
 - Cancels skill in use.
 - Can be assigned to blockers.

I've attached replays.

All of these will be covered in the rank that shows tricks and advanced uses. The level in the skill rank only covers the most basic behavior of the skill. Combinations with other skills will come later.

Releasing blockers will be a major theme and walkers is among the first options to show. Also canceling skills (basher staircases in particular) will be another big theme.

Cloning several active skills (miners,builders,stackers) is also a topic on it's own. Getting all of this into the Cloner introduction level would be overkill, you could even argue that I should not mention the extra uses until later on.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2019, 08:04:05 AM »
@Dullstar: I've made a level of exactly the same type in Lemmicks, "Go forth and multiply". I agree with IchoTolot that early levels should stress one idea and one idea only - in this case, it's all about directionality: Both walkers and cloners result in lemmings going into the opposite direction.

I don't know how many levels the first rank, "Skills", is supposed to have eventually, or whether these are all already. If so, 12 is a weird number for Lemmings packs - I'd suggest going up to at least 20, maybe even the standard 30, and show a little more of skill interactions.

For example, the fact that walkers can cancel skills, including blockers, that cloners copy skills, that gliders interact with updrafts, all this is technically still a signature behaviour of the skill itself. For gliders, I guess you could make the case that this belongs in the "Objects" rank, introducing updrafts in general. But the fact that cloners copy and walkers cancel are still inherent properties of the skills - some skills just are too complex to point out everything they do in one level, I guess.

Also, anti-splat pads will have to be added to your "Objects" rank now, since they're getting reintroduced. ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2019, 01:49:09 PM »
Quote
I don't know how many levels the first rank, "Skills", is supposed to have eventually, or whether these are all already. If so, 12 is a weird number for Lemmings packs - I'd suggest going up to at least 20, maybe even the standard 30, and show a little more of skill interactions.

The number itself does not matter here. It could be 7 and when the rank teaches everything it wants to achieve it's fine. I will stay at 12 out of the reason Proxima stated: Don't exhaust the new player right of the get go. Imagine that: You want to learn Lemmings and see a 30 level first rank of new skills...yeah pass that. Instead the first ranks will only introduce the most basic uses of skills and the most basic interactions with objects and they will try to be as short as possible while covering the nessesary stuff. Later when providing training levels and examples of tricks you can have a larger rank.

Also the skill rank will not include skill interactions. Again, this is advanced stuff that comes later. After learning the basic uses of skills we should probably teach the player about steel, OWWs, teleporters, frame-stepping and other elemental things first. After all that is done I promise that the core skill interactions will be taught! ;)

To qoute your points one by one:

Quote
, that gliders interact with updrafts,

100% Object rank --> updraft introduction.

Quote
walkers can cancel skills

Advanced mechanic that can lead deep into the mechanics -> Training/Trick rank. Even if the blocker interaction is more basic, let's stay a bit more consistent and move the whole theme together.

Quote
that cloners copy skills

Again, this leads deep into the mechanics and is better taught later.

Quote
some skills just are too complex to point out everything they do in one level, I guess.

That's why I am not doing that. ;)


During the last few posts I see that some fall into the trap of wanting to explain everything about a topic at once. That would be counterproductive. You need a short introduction about the basic components first where only the basic uses of them are explained. Anything beyond comes later.  It is only problematic if the basic use is not explained properly.
I will continue with the "Interactables and Functions" rank next where I will go over Steel, Objects and helpful NL functions.
After that is done I move to the "Tricks and Training" rank where first some basic training levels will come up where the user can play around with a bunch of skills. Then all your interactions and tricks will be slowly trickled in. ;)

So, be patient and after the next level sets come out it all might get clearer. :)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2019, 03:35:04 PM »
I hope to release the next rank soon after I come back from my trip to my hometown.

I plan to name the rank: Interactables & Functions   

For the rest I plan 2 more ranks: Basic Training & Advanced Training. This way basic tricks like "create a digger pit" are seperated from advanced stuff like "cloner+stacker step". Also this helps to keep the ranks smaller while still providing enough training. Still I 100% won't cover every single trick in the book in there and there will be stuff left out! There must be a line and covering the more common stuff is the priority.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2019, 07:15:44 PM »
Okay, time to do this. I'm playing through the Skills rank again and as I go along, I'll write up suggestions for improving the pre-level texts. (I'll also note any other issues, though I don't think there are any.)

Most of my suggestions will be where I think the text is correct but could be written more effectively. I'll use italics where I note an actual grammar error.

Skills Rank (click to show/hide)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2019, 07:27:08 AM »
Thanks for the feddback Proxima. :thumbsup: I will go through this when I'm fully back next week and prepare adding the next rank. :)

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2019, 07:45:47 PM »
In regards to the preview text, I'd suggest withholding any information that won't be relevant until later levels. For example, the Walker/Cloner level has some very wordy text, and Proxima correctly notes that there aren't any obvious cuts to make. I assume this is because all the behaviors mentioned are important to know for those skills. However, this level doesn't demonstrate that walkers cancel skills, and it doesn't demonstrate that cloners retain their current skills, and it seems there is a consensus that these behaviors should be withheld until later levels. Can this portion of the explanation also be withheld until that time? If it doesn't make sense to show the player those behaviors right away, I think it would be logically consistent to also not tell the player about this behavior right away.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2019, 04:03:51 PM »
V 0.04 is out!

- Added the 2nd rank: Interactables & Functions 

- Included a lot of pre-level text changes according to user feedback (mostly the majority of things mentioned in Proxima's post).


The updraft, splat-pad, anti splat-pad level is obviously still missing the anti splat-pad. That one is currently replaced by another updraft.

The new rank 2 pre-level texts are more wordy than the rank 1 ones, but trying to explain framestepping + hotkeys in 1 screen is a challenge let's say. ;P   Again if you have a shorter/better text with the same information value: Post it and I may change it. :)

Quote
For the level titles, title case usually doesn't capitalise articles or prepositions ("a", "the", "at" etc.)

This you can count towards my general style that i developed shortly after Reunion. I usually capitalise every word in a level title, because I think it looks better. And as everybody does it differently anyway I normally stick to my style in this case.

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2019, 07:44:41 PM »
Quote
For the level titles, title case usually doesn't capitalise articles or prepositions ("a", "the", "at" etc.)

This you can count towards my general style that i developed shortly after Reunion. I usually capitalise every word in a level title, because I think it looks better. And as everybody does it differently anyway I normally stick to my style in this case.

Yeah, I do the same actually.



Now, for feedback on the new rank:
General - Note that I wrote this after seeing the first level. I'm just going to kind of assume it's the same throughout the whole thing. Anyway: NeoLemmix by default pushes users towards the "Functional layout", but your texts reflect the Traditional layout. But instead of relying on this - it should be easy enough for me to introduce a feature where you can put, say, [HOTKEY:PAUSE] in the preview text, and it'll get replaced with the actual pause hotkey. The only question is how to handle cases where more than one key is assigned to the function - which Pause would indeed be an example of.

Level 1 "Up For A Walk?" - This level was a bit laggy for me even in fast-forward mode. There were also some lemmings that turned around during the last bash (or close to it), which even with fast forward takes ages. Suggestion - introduce the time skip here as well. Regarding the text, "Pressing the button with the two green arrows" - I would change this to "Clicking" (not "Pressing"). I'd also maybe stress "skill panel button" again here, or maybe even mention the panel buttons first, then later say "You can also use the hotkeys...".

Level 2 "Iron Anthill" - "Levels can also include verticality", this sounds really awkward to me. In general - "verticality" is not a word that generally gets used. "Levels can also scroll vertically", or "Levels can vary in height as well as width" might be better phrasing. Also, the feature has consistently been termed "clear physics mode", not "true physics mode". This is also another level that would benefit greatly from the time skips already being introduced. By tutorial level standards, this is a pretty fun level, though!

Level 3 "Time and Crime" - I don't see any problems with this one. :)

Level 4 "Trap Roulette" - It feels a bit awkward that the description immediately starts with "some traps only...", without first talking at all about what a trap is in and of itself. (A new-to-Lemmings player might wonder - does it kill, or does it just trap a lemming in one place until you do something to release him, for example.) On a side note, some of the Lemmings Plus traps aren't quite behaving as they should graphically, I need to look into that, but that's my problem - just that I noticed it on this level.

Level 5 "Set Your Priorities Right" - I suggest making the floater section a bit higher, because currently, floaters (whether the pre-assigned or the skill panel ones) aren't actually necessary here. Maybe this depends on exact positioning, but IMO it makes more sense for them to be always required.

Level 6 "Follow The Arrows" - Everything seems good here! :D

Level 7 "Pick Them Up And Push Them Down" - Again, all seems well with this one.

Level 8 "Split And Splat" - Here too.

Level 9 "Beam Them Over" - The middle section on the left, I would swap the two teleporters around. This makes it possible to recover from a mistake here, which doesn't really harm the level in any way.

Level 10 "Gravity Lab" - "Floaters get slowed down" - so do normal lemmings, it's just more noticable with floaters, but both fall 1px/frame slower than usual. Also - use the resizing on the updrafts instead of placing multiple where possible; on V12.6.0 onwards this looks much nicer. ;)

Level 11 "Stop, Rewind and Go" - Minus doesn't have to be specifically numpad-minus. Also, you can right click or middle click on the skill panel buttons for different skip durations (1sec and 5sec, IIRC).

Level 12 "The Joy Of Sorting" - This one is quite tricky, I wonder if it needs to have every permanent skill involved? I think you could get the point across with a simpler setup - the climber, disarmer and no-permanent-skills entrances as-is, plus a second no-permanents entrance that spawns 2 lemmings. Place two additional limit-1 entrances exits (sorry, mistake), one just before each climbable wall. Remove the remaining entrances and their corresponding exits, and adjust the skillset accordingly.

Level 13 "Highlights With A Safety Net" - Typo in the text, "kepp" -> "keep". Aside from that, seems good.

Level 14 "Night Of The Living Lems" - All seems good here.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 08:39:15 PM by namida »
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Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2019, 08:00:57 PM »
it should be easy enough for me to introduce a feature where you can put, say, [HOTKEY:PAUSE] in the preview text, and it'll get replaced with the actual pause hotkey. The only question is how to handle cases where more than one key is assigned to the function - which Pause would indeed be an example of.

This is a good idea, because it would be frustrating for new users to have the intro texts teach them about hotkeys and then try them out and they don't work. However, there are two other problems to consider: the user may not have any hotkey for a given function (especially timeskips since you can choose your own lengths of timeskip to assign hotkeys to); and for functions like splat ruler where the default is an alphabetic key, the intro text writer may leave space for a single letter, but a particular user may have assigned something like Ctrl to it.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 08:10:36 PM by Proxima »

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2019, 08:23:43 PM »
@namida: Thanks for the feedback. :)

Quote
General - Note that I wrote this after seeing the first level. I'm just going to kind of assume it's the same throughout the whole thing. Anyway: NeoLemmix by default pushes users towards the "Functional layout", but your texts reflect the Traditional layout. But instead of relying on this - it should be easy enough for me to introduce a feature where you can put, say, [HOTKEY:PAUSE] in the preview text, and it'll get replaced with the actual pause hotkey. The only question is how to handle cases where more than one key is assigned to the function - which Pause would indeed be an example of.

Then I will wait for that function before any changes in that section. I have no idea what the "Functional layout" is and with your described function I would catch all cases.

Quote
Also, the feature has consistently been termed "clear physics mode", not "true physics mode".

That one is on me. ;P

Level 1 and 2: Yes, those would benefit from the 10 sec skip, but I wanted to keep all framestepping actions together as a theme, so I aimed to introduce FF as fast as possible here as a temporal relief. Also the preview texts here are quite at the limit as the levels already introduce quite a bit. Especially the 1st level should be an example of suboptimal level desgin: Large landscape with not much going on so that FF feels better. I could turn down the decoration though to reduce lag.

Level 4: "Basic" traps were already introduced in rank 1 with the disarmer as that was unavoidable. This is more about single-use ones and also an opportunity to show more traps to the player.

Level 5: Well, the floater were more than an afterthought to show pre-placer can have permanent skills and the skill panel ones were just an emergency addition so that no situation can become very problematical. I could place the tunnel higher though.

Level 9: Seems reasonable.

Level 10/11: Ok, I should mention this. And I constantly forget that I can indeed resize!

Level 12: Yes, that could be an easier suitable variation and I could reuse this version in basic training as an expansion/returning level. I want to hear more oppinions first though.

Level 13: Quick fix.


Anyway the next update will not happen today in order to let more feedback trickle in.

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2019, 08:41:32 PM »
it should be easy enough for me to introduce a feature where you can put, say, [HOTKEY:PAUSE] in the preview text, and it'll get replaced with the actual pause hotkey. The only question is how to handle cases where more than one key is assigned to the function - which Pause would indeed be an example of.

This is a good idea, because it would be frustrating for new users to have the intro texts teach them about hotkeys and then try them out and they don't work. However, there are two other problems to consider: the user may not have any hotkey for a given function (especially timeskips since you can choose your own lengths of timeskip to assign hotkeys to); and for functions like splat ruler where the default is an alphabetic key, the intro text writer may leave space for a single letter, but a particular user may have assigned something like Ctrl to it.

Time skips may be a difficult one, yeah. Cases where no hotkey is assigned should be easy enough.

Perhaps a different approach will work better here - namely, going with the expectation that the hotkey text might take up an entire line. Then, we'd just have on its own line, for example: "Pause hotkey: P | F11 | Middle Click" (in the actual data files: "Pause hotkey: [HOTKEY:PAUSE]" or similar).

Quote
General - Note that I wrote this after seeing the first level. I'm just going to kind of assume it's the same throughout the whole thing. Anyway: NeoLemmix by default pushes users towards the "Functional layout", but your texts reflect the Traditional layout. But instead of relying on this - it should be easy enough for me to introduce a feature where you can put, say, [HOTKEY:PAUSE] in the preview text, and it'll get replaced with the actual pause hotkey. The only question is how to handle cases where more than one key is assigned to the function - which Pause would indeed be an example of.

Then I will wait for that function before any changes in that section. I have no idea what the "Functional layout" is and with your described function I would catch all cases.

When first starting NeoLemmix with no existing configuration (as in, no config at all, not just a missing hotkeys file) it prompts the user to select between "Functional layout" (formerly titled "Lix-like layout"), "Traditional layout" (the one you're used to), or "Minimal layout" (only assigns a very few keys: Esc to exit, mousewheel to zoom in and out, MMB pause, and RMB scroll; this is for people who want to create their own layout without having to clear the default first).
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Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2019, 12:43:48 AM »
Comments on everything other than the hotkey issue:

Comments (click to show/hide)

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2019, 07:34:15 AM »
Might I suggest swapping levels 5 and 6 in the new rank?

Level 6 is the actual introduction level for OWW, though they are used in Level 5. However, the skills taught by Level 5 are not particularly important for Level 6.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2019, 08:20:20 AM »
Will prepare a patch later. Thanks for all the feedback. :)

Might I suggest swapping levels 5 and 6 in the new rank?

Level 6 is the actual introduction level for OWW, though they are used in Level 5. However, the skills taught by Level 5 are not particularly important for Level 6.

Total screw up from my part! :-[   Yes, those need to be swapped.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2019, 02:14:53 PM »
V 0.05 is out! Please delete your old folder while updating as the old rank name won't be overwritten!

- Renamed "Interactables" to "Objects" (even if the rank also introduces steel ;P)

- 1 02 mentions skill shadows now

- A TON of rewritten/corrected texts.

- 2 01 removed a bit of the decoration.

- 2 09 swapped 2 teleporters

- 2 10 uses extended updrafts now

- 2 12 was reworked into a simpler version (original version will probably return in a later rank)

- 2 05 <--> 2 06


Quote
Level 5 "Set Your Priorities Right" - I suggest making the floater section a bit higher, because currently, floaters (whether the pre-assigned or the skill panel ones) aren't actually necessary here. Maybe this depends on exact positioning, but IMO it makes more sense for them to be always required.

I've decided against the certain splat-fall here for more simplicity, even if the floaters serve no other use other than demonstration as a result.

A nice second round of feedback would be nice after this patch as I could have easily forgotten something. :P

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2019, 07:10:14 PM »
V 0.06 is out!

- Changed the hotkey displaying inside the texts.

I attached an exp NL version that displays the actual user hotkeys inside the text. Let me know if your setup breaks any textlines!

Without the exp version some textlines will definitely not fit. ;)

The exp also includes the "preview texts don't show again after going to menu" fix and the "can middle-click on preview screen, to force viewing the preview text" change.

Warning: Make a backup for your settings and hotkeys files as there might be a problem with the exp changing that.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 04:51:08 PM by IchoTolot »

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2019, 07:18:09 PM »
The line explaining Select Walker goes over the edge of the screen slightly, and in level 13 of the 2nd rank, the hotkey names are still hardcoded. I'm using the default hotkey setup with the "Traditional layout" option.

The new level for limited entrances / exits is much more suitable IMO! It still requires patience and careful thinking, but isn't overly complicated for a tutorial level. Also, the updrafts on the lab level look much nicer now too. ;)

Those are the only things that stood out to me on a quick look through the new version.
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Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2019, 05:02:37 PM »
I attached an exp NL version that displays the actual user hotkeys inside the text. Let me know if your setup breaks any textlines!

As expected, the line about the ten-second skip doesn't work for me; "No Hotkey Assigned" breaks the line completely. Everything else is fine.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2019, 02:30:13 PM »
V 0.07 is out!

- New level at 2 12 for explaining longer timeskips. Text there also mentions where to change hotkeys.

- Text at 2 06 has changed.

- Text at 2 11 has changed.

- Text at the new 2 14 has changed.

For any "No Hotkey Assigned" cases, I would push towards any chosen standard layout should assign these. :8():

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2019, 10:55:23 AM »
If no more issues arise I will then soon continue with the "Basic Training" rank. :)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2019, 09:47:41 AM »
Currently, I've got 16 levels for the "Basic Training" rank and I am considering to increase the aimed ammount of levels in there from 20 to 25 or even 30.

The ammount of trick/mechanic lessons in there stays the same, but a slightly larger rank has more room for just general levels to train so players get more of routine with handling lemmings.

What are your thoughts about this? ??? I think apart from the lessons levels a healthy bunch of general training levels can really help getting things across and let the player gather more experience.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2019, 01:03:09 PM »
It's not necessarily a bad thing, but I think we will have lots of disagreement over what should be included in a "basic training" rank and what would be better to leave for the player to figure out for themselves :P

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2019, 01:16:57 PM »
It's not necessarily a bad thing, but I think we will have lots of disagreement over what should be included in a "basic training" rank and what would be better to leave for the player to figure out for themselves :P

That is bound to happen, but I rather show a bit more than less as a general rule of thumb. ;P

Examples would be: Release methods from blocker traps, digger/stacker/stoner holding pits, different cloner interactions, walker cancelling (includes basher staircases for example), compression method, uneven steel, climber+shimmier....... But you will see. ;P

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2019, 02:51:07 PM »
V 0.08 is out!

The update introduces the "Basic Training" rank with 25 levels!

The single levels intend to teach the following topics:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Now, I need some feedback again on where I screwed up some texts or maybe missed some things.

If this rank becomes somewhat stable again I will start creating the "Advanced Training" rank. Currently I plan to cover the following things there:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If you have more things that should be covered please post them here and I will consider them.

Changes to rank 2 will be made after the release of the next major NL version to cover anti-splat pads and neutral lemmings.

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2019, 06:36:31 PM »
Feedback for first 10 levels (click to show/hide)

I'll continue with this later.
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2019, 07:49:43 PM »
Thanks for the feedback. :)

I think there are a few misunderstandings though that the only tutorial levels here are the ones that introduce mechanics. The other ones are just training levels where the player should be on his own learing what works and what not and maybe re-apply already learned tricks.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 08:32:37 PM by IchoTolot »

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2019, 08:19:56 PM »
Sorry - I meant "tutorial level" in the sense of that it's in a tutorial pack, more than anything focused on the individual levels themself. I should have clarified this.

Next few levels...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2019, 08:28:23 PM »
Response:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2019, 01:28:39 PM »
V 0.09 is out!

Following changes have been made based on namida's feedback:

- 3 05 Increased lem count from 80 to 100.
- 3 07 The builders are now pick-ups to give the player a clear hint.
- 3 09 Platforms expanded to decrease precision.
- 3 11 Hopefully blocked the loops with flamers.
- 3 13 Most of the skills are now pick-ups to greatly reduce entropy.
- 3 14 Moved a platform to decrease required precision.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 02:16:02 PM by IchoTolot »

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2019, 02:03:43 AM »
And now finishing off the rest of the rank...

(Note: Since none of the levels I haven't done yet were included in the changelog, I didn't redownload.)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Aside from the level-specific feedbacks, I wonder if there should be a level or two gap between a tutorial level and the practice level that uses what it taught? Enough that the player has to think more than "what did the immediately previous level teach me?", but recent enough that it's still fairly fresh in the player's mind.
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2019, 01:58:15 PM »
Alright, here are my answers:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As I completely forgot a basic trick (Builder Walls), the fencer+builder case should be trained and I was already unsure to place digger stircases in advanced, the Basic Training rank will get 5 additional levels!

So new plan for additional levels:

Basic training:
- Precise Digger/Miner/Basher top-down Staircases
- Builder blocks
- Fencer+Builder Training
+ 2 more

Advanced Training:
- Miner+Platformer,Basher+platformer staircases
- Basher through parallel builders
- Stoner+Stacker step-up
- Digger assignments at the last moment before he falls
- Basher staircases without builders/walkers. 3 parts: 1) Block+Bomb. 2) Block+Dig+Bash/Dig+Block+Bash. 3) Without a crowd and 2 bashers: Block+Dig+Block+Bash
+ X

As for fixes:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2019, 07:13:07 PM »
V 0.10 is out!

Following changes have been made based on namida's feedback:

- 3 16 Added another diagonal drop.
- 3 17 The walker is now a pick-up skill, RR locked and lowered.
- 3 22 Preview text had been made clearer.
- 3 23 A lot of skills are now pick-ups to greatly lower entropy.
- 3 24 Enforced the builder canceling.
- 3 25 The miner is now a pick-up skill to block a backroute.

New levels based on the plans I posted before will be coming when they are ready. :)    Better save replays by level name and not by position as quite a few position switches will be happening.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2019, 09:13:21 PM »
Really enjoying this pack so far, learning a lot about NeoLemmix's capabilities. The level I've just played (Objects & Functions 7 - Pick Them Up And Push Them Down) has come as a bit of a revelation as I've been thinking it would be good to pick up skills in-level whilst designing my current pack, and now I know it's possible in NeoLemmix!

(Incidentally, since a lot of the new features (splitters, buttons, item pick-ups) will need hi-res graphics (and possibly even animations for walkers that meet them for the first time), I'm happy to do these as well when the time comes.)

I've attached my replays so far. I'm a bit stuck on the current level (O&F 8 - Split And Splat) as it's not clear exactly how to stop the splitter from working, or turn the Lemmings around...

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2019, 10:03:42 PM »
Thanks for the feedback. :)

Quote
I've attached my replays so far. I'm a bit stuck on the current level (O&F 8 - Split And Splat) as it's not clear exactly how to stop the splitter from working,

Will add to the introduction text then that splitters can't be deactivated. They will always work.

Quote
or turn the Lemmings around...

Well, you have 1 type of skill. ;)   Try to remember the skill introduction level for that one. Also you can loose a bunch of lemmings, 100% isn't nessesary.


I plan to release 5 new levels for rank 3 hopefully this week. Will add the splitter info from above with that patch too. :)


Offline WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2019, 12:07:48 PM »

Quote
or turn the Lemmings around...

Well, you have 1 type of skill. ;)   Try to remember the skill introduction level for that one. Also you can loose a bunch of lemmings, 100% isn't nessesary.

Aha - got it, thanks!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Looking forward to the new levels!

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2019, 07:56:21 PM »
V 0.11 is out!

The zip file is now inteded to be extracted right inside the main NL folder! Inside the zip is a "levels" folder first and then the pack's folder as a result.

Following changes have been made based on Willem's feedback:

- 2 08 Added the pre-text info that splitters can't be deactivated.

Following levels have been added:

- 3 05 (The following levels are therefore pushed back by 1 place)
- 3 07 (The following levels are therefore pushed back by 1 place)
- 3 08 (The following levels are therefore pushed back by 1 place)
- 3 21 (The following levels are therefore pushed back by 1 place)
- 3 27 (The following levels are therefore pushed back by 1 place)

The level count for rank 3 is now 30 as a result. :)

Offline WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2019, 11:45:22 PM »
Am I missing something on Gravity Lab...??? I can't seem to figure this one out at all.


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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2019, 02:47:44 PM »
Am I missing something on Gravity Lab...??? I can't seem to figure this one out at all.

Did you catch the following things from the pre-text (if not then it might be written more clearly):

- Updrafts prevent Lemmings from splatting.
- Updrafts slow the fall of lemmings and especially floaters.
- Updrafts cause gliders to glide upwards.

- Splat-pats let non floater/glider lemmings splat if they fall on it.
- Anti-splat pads prevent lemmings from splatting.

Please, if you think some of the points above is not made clear in the text tell me!

For the level:

To show all these interactions I gave 3 lemmings, 1 glider and 1 floater. So you can have 1 normal lemming, 1 glider and 1 floater.
Now you should figure out who needs to be who, if that's right the level should nearly solve itself.

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2019, 07:06:54 AM »
Quote
- Splat-pats let non floater/glider lemmings splat if they fall on it.

English mistake here - Splat-pads "make" them splat. "Let" in this context has the meaning of "allow", not "cause" or "force". (Although the opposite case - "Antisplat pads let lemmings survive" - is fine. I don't know the theory behind why this one is okay, it's just a "as a native speaker I know this is fine" situation.)
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2019, 01:57:00 PM »
V 0.12 is out!

Little 12.7.0 update here as well:

- 2 10 has now an anti-splat pad and I fixed the error namida pointed out.


Rank 2 will be getting a neutral lemmings introduction level with the next bigger content-adding patch.  :)

The levels have not been cleansed yet, due to the current bug. ;P

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2019, 07:19:26 PM »
V 0.13 is out!

Levels cleansed.

Level folder renamed! It contains now "_" instead of " ", due to naming conditions.  Please delete the old level folder of this pack to properly update.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #57 on: November 15, 2019, 02:22:22 PM »
Hi IchoTolot,

Here are my replays for the Skills / Objects & Functions ranks. I'll start on the Basic one soon and get those over as well.

Feedback so far (hopefully this will be useful as I am very much a NeoLemmix beginner):

The pack is generally very enjoyable to play through, presenting some challenges of normal difficulty whilst teaching the skills - the pack does a very good job of this and I already feel more at home with NeoLemmix just after these two ranks.

The O&F 11 & 12 pre-screens specify "(None)" as the hotkey for the various tasks; I'm sure this is something you're aware of and will get around to changing, but just a heads-up anyway.

I did find one or two of the levels very difficult to find the solution for, in spite of their simplicity.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

With levels that introduce a completely new concept or object (pickups, buttons, splitters, teleporters, limited-number entrances & exits), it may be an idea to make them as basic as possible - like, first few levels of Fun basic. Just showing the player what the item does, but not in the context of a puzzle just yet. Or, present the item first in a simple set-up level, and then have a puzzle level straight afterwards (this would obviously increase the number of levels...). Just an idea, and one I'm sure you have already considered. If you were to leave it as is, it's totally fine and perfectly enjoyable for any decent Lemmings player. But if the idea is to welcome in complete beginners, then presenting the new stuff in the same manner as the skills themselves may be worthwhile...

Levels I particularly enjoyed were: O&F11 Stop, Rewind and Go, 13 Getting Into Sorting and 15 Night of the Living Lems. These were all my kinda puzzles ;P They do a great job of keeping things simple but challenging whilst also easing the player into new concepts such as limited-number entrances & exits, multitasking in pause mode and... Zombie Lemmings! :lem-mindblown:

Enjoy the replays, I'll get the Basic ones over to you at some point soon-ish.

Best regards,

-WillLem 8-)



« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 02:56:36 PM by WillLem »

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2019, 05:33:10 PM »
Thanks for the replays, I see no backroutes here. :)

Comments:

Quote
The O&F 11 & 12 pre-screens specify "(None)" as the hotkey for the various tasks; I'm sure this is something you're aware of and will get around to changing, but just a heads-up anyway.

I have no influence on that one. Which hotkey layout did you choose with the installation? These layouts should cover the hotkeys mentioned here otherwise point these missing ones out to namida, together with the layout you chose.
You can also assign them manually in the hotkey menu.

Quote
With the former, since it's not possible to save all the Lemmings it kind of gives the splitter object a bad first impression.

It is possible to save everyone, indeed my replay does so, but a point of the levels is to show the player that loosing lemmings is indeed alright. In this level you can loose a third of the crowd and the player should feel empowered to do so. The save requirement is not 100% for a reason, new players should loose lemmings here.
I can lower the save requirement if you advice, but losses should be expected. Players must learn and get used to let lemmings go.

Quote
With levels that introduce a completely new concept or object (pickups, buttons, splitters, teleporters, limited-number entrances & exits), it may be an idea to make them as basic as possible - like, first few levels of Fun basic. Just showing the player what the item does, but not in the context of a puzzle just yet. Or, present the item first in a simple set-up level, and then have a puzzle level straight afterwards (this would obviously increase the number of levels...). Just an idea, and one I'm sure you have already considered. If you were to leave it as is, it's totally fine and perfectly enjoyable for any decent Lemmings player. But if the idea is to welcome in complete beginners, then presenting the new stuff in the same manner as the skills themselves may be worthwhile...

Well, these should be the very basic cases which still cover every aspect mentioned.
For the gravity level for example here is my creation thinking process: I covered all 3 instances of updraft interactions: Normal, floater, glider. The only puzzle should be in which order the 2 permanent skills must be assigned to the 3 lemmings, this is also hinted at inside the pre-text. The 2 builders 100% have to cover the water pit and the splatpad there is no alternative, as otherwise the level is always impossible and not all lemings can go towards the exit. The 1 fencer has to be for the last pillar.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2019, 02:16:34 PM »
Quote
The O&F 11 & 12 pre-screens specify "(None)" as the hotkey for the various tasks; I'm sure this is something you're aware of and will get around to changing, but just a heads-up anyway.

I have no influence on that one. Which hotkey layout did you choose with the installation? These layouts should cover the hotkeys mentioned here otherwise point these missing ones out to namida, together with the layout you chose.
You can also assign them manually in the hotkey menu.

Ah - is this set to automatically assign whichever key the user has specified as the hotkey to the text? In that case, this makes sense as I've assigned time-skipping duties to mouse clicks (L-forward 1 frame/R-backward 1 frame) rather than keys. Would this explain the issue?

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #60 on: November 16, 2019, 10:45:58 PM »

Ah - is this set to automatically assign whichever key the user has specified as the hotkey to the text? In that case, this makes sense as I've assigned time-skipping duties to mouse clicks (L-forward 1 frame/R-backward 1 frame) rather than keys. Would this explain the issue?

Exactly. :)

Offline joshescue18

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #61 on: November 24, 2019, 12:11:20 AM »
I have completed the pack so far.

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #62 on: November 24, 2019, 12:29:23 AM »
I have completed the pack so far.

This is the kind of pack where just giving replays without any further feedback really isn't all that useful. The goal of this pack is to introduce new players to NeoLemmix, so comments on how well it does that (or what could be improved in regards to that) are much more helpful than replays here. Of course, other feedback is almost always useful; but this pack is unique in that it's the more important aspect.
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Offline WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #63 on: November 24, 2019, 02:11:18 AM »
It's a great pack, there are some enjoyable levels and as a NeoLemmix beginner I have found it really useful in getting to grips with some of the new skills - there's no way I could have taken on the all-new-skills challenge without having had a look at this pack first (or, I would have struggled a lot with it at first).

Constructive feedback: I'd just look again at the pre-screens and make sure that they're as clear as possible. I've noticed a few typos and mis-wordings (some examples below):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm happy to proof-read all of the pre-screen texts for you if you'd prefer to delegate this particular task elsewhere; PM them to me and I'll have a look as soon as I get the chance.

Some positive feedback:

I think you do a great job of keeping the levels fun and interesting whilst also presenting enough of a challenge so they don't just feel like boring tutorial levels. The pack in general is great for this reason.

Favourite Levels:

Top-Down Approach takes a couple of looks to solve even though it's quite straightforward
The Reacharound is a great puzzle - took me a while to unlock the secret to this one
Chalk-Walk is a great concept, and a new one on me. It's inspired me to have a go at making a level like this
The Joy Of Sorting looks incredibly ominous at first glance, but it's just a question of making sure you do things in the correct order!
Blocked In Your Favour does a great job of combining the skills used in the previous few levels; takes a few looks to get right!
Double Down and Equal Distribution - probably my biggest favourites of the whole pack; I love cloners!
Fancy Fencer :thumbsup:

I've attached replays for all the Basic Training levels - very much enjoyed playing through these.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 02:29:16 AM by WillLem »

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #64 on: December 08, 2019, 03:17:30 PM »
I completely forgot to respond to Willem. I've read the message and looked through the replays though. ;P

V 0.14 is out! :)

A level has been added as the new rank 2 finisher:

- Neutral Response (Introduction to neutral lemmings)

Quote
This is the kind of pack where just giving replays without any further feedback really isn't all that useful. The goal of this pack is to introduce new players to NeoLemmix, so comments on how well it does that (or what could be improved in regards to that) are much more helpful than replays here. Of course, other feedback is almost always useful; but this pack is unique in that it's the more important aspect.

Well, it still resulted in this: ;)

Backroute fixes:

- 3 20 (extra steel)
- 3 30 (extra fencer pick up)

I also patched up the spelling mistakes and slight unclarities Willem pointed out. :)

Thanks again for the feedback! :thumbsup:

Quote
I'm happy to proof-read all of the pre-screen texts for you if you'd prefer to delegate this particular task elsewhere; PM them to me and I'll have a look as soon as I get the chance.

Will do that for rank 4. ;)

Offline DireKrow

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2020, 12:07:03 AM »
I am a fairly new lemmings player. I've played Fun through Taxing of the original, but nothing else. Skills that weren't in the original are new to me. I thought I'd give my perspective as I play through.

General Comments:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Level specific comments:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Attached are my replays so far and the alternate (unintended?) solution to Block & Blow
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 12:19:55 PM by DireKrow »
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Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2020, 06:57:47 AM »
Quote
From the perspective of a brand new lemmings player, I think the release rates are a little high across the board in Skills and Objects.

If you're comparing to the release rates in the DOS / Amiga / etc games, do keep in mind that NeoLemmix release rates aren't equivalent to the same number RR in DOS. A DOS release rate of 1 would be RR 50 in NeoLemmix (with NL's RR 1 being much slower than any valid value in DOS).

The reasoning behind this is that, in DOS, every two consecutive values are identical in terms of their in-game effects. For example, there's no difference between 98 and 99. NeoLemmix "un-duplicates" these values, then uses the extra space created (values below 50) for new, even-slower RRs.
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Offline DireKrow

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2020, 07:19:40 AM »
Quote
From the perspective of a brand new lemmings player, I think the release rates are a little high across the board in Skills and Objects.

If you're comparing to the release rates in the DOS / Amiga / etc games, do keep in mind that NeoLemmix release rates aren't equivalent to the same number RR in DOS. A DOS release rate of 1 would be RR 50 in NeoLemmix (with NL's RR 1 being much slower than any valid value in DOS).

The reasoning behind this is that, in DOS, every two consecutive values are identical in terms of their in-game effects. For example, there's no difference between 98 and 99. NeoLemmix "un-duplicates" these values, then uses the extra space created (values below 50) for new, even-slower RRs.

Nah, I played the NL conversion of them. I'm unfamiliar with the actual original release rate. I just based the comment on how I felt.

To elaborate: In a lot of the Skills levels there is no actual danger, so release rate wouldn't impact the solution. But a low release rate means it's easier to see how mechanics work in isolation. You can see how a miner's animation digs out its tunnel without a bunch of lemmings getting in the way of it. You can see the dig/bash/mine/build zones of lemmings when you hover them without it flickering as other lemmings walk past. You can easily pick the lemmings you want to assign skills to without accidental misclicks. Things like that. My philosophy would be to err on the conservative side of release rates in early aimed-at-new-players tutorial puzzles. Reduces stress, increases clarity.

I remember while doing the Fencer/Miner level the first time, I stopped and had a look at where I needed to go next for a few seconds, and by the time I'd gotten back to my lemmings, the hole they were in was filled up. New player would have a bear of a time trying to mine correctly in the situation.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 11:28:22 AM by DireKrow »
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Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2020, 06:07:20 PM »
Playing through the latest version of the pack. My feedback on the first three ranks as they are now:

Rank 1 - Skills (click to show/hide)

Rank 2 - Objects & Functions (click to show/hide)

Rank 3 - Basic Training (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 10:48:30 PM by Proxima »

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2020, 06:23:18 PM »
Intro text says "None" for clear physics mode even though I have it assigned to "C". One to take up with namida....

After some just-digging, I realised why this is. Your intro text includes "[HOTKEY:Clear_Physics:1]", where the "1" means that your clear physics hotkey is set to hold-down rather than toggle. Since the user could have separate hotkeys for clear physics hold-down and toggle, I guess it makes sense that this functionality exists, but I would suggest that "[HOTKEY:Clear_Physics]" should show any clear physics mode hotkey the user has.

I suspect DireKrow's issue with the "next shrugger" hotkey has a similar cause, though it's harder for me to investigate that one as I don't have any hotkey assigned to that.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2020, 08:44:53 PM »
Thanks for the feedback! :thumbsup:

Especially feedback from new players is quite valuable here.

My Comments:

Quote
- From the perspective of a brand new lemmings player, I think the release rates are a little high across the board in Skills and Objects. See my second post in the thread for some elaboration.

That or the overall lemming count can be adjusted a little. Although getting the player used to higher RRs is a thing that should be done early.

Quote
- In pretexts, referencing the pixel counts feels. weird. I don't think it's more helpful than just saying that lemmings die if they fall too far, for example. Perhaps mention the 64 pixels thing when the ruler is introduced?
Quote
1-4 I agree with DireKrow about the awkwardness of mentioning the exact fall height. This is the first level where the player needs to understand they can scroll to see more of the level; should this be mentioned?

It may be not more helpful for everyone, but I do think mention the exact mechanic even this early on is only fair and it doesn't do harm in my opinion.

Quote
- There's some issues where for me, in the description, the hotkey says <None> even though I have a hotkey assigned. For example, go-to-next-shrugger is 8 by default, but the description prior to Big Steps Through The Snow just says <None>. Just thought I'd mention it. Also, highlight lemming is not right-click by default (as stated by the Highlights With A Safety Net pretext), it's actually Ctrl+Click.

The <None> cases are probably something for namida to check. The standard layouts should at least assign the keys introduced here.

My mistake will be fixed.

Quote
Skills 2. Let's Take A Bash At It! - Also great. I really like the fact you included a staircase to show that not all bashing targets are flat vertical walls. However, I'm not sure what the pillar above the staircase shows that the three pillars in the middle don't already.

The answer is simple: Repetition. It's one of the best way to let lessons sink in. Rpeat until something burns into the players mind.

Quote
Skills 5. Block and Blow In The Snow - Good. I particularly like the the miniature puzzle at the end. A new player must figure out how to go down and turn around at the same time. For example, they might be tempted to put a blocker at the ice tip, only to realize it becomes useless when they the bomb the ice. Good learning opportunity. It's possible to complete this level without using any blockers, which might be unintended. See attachment.

That is unintended, yes. I think I will do a little fix even if this is probably not the way people solve it the first time.

Quote
Skills 7. Building Flat and Building High - Cool, but too hard? I'd DEFINITELY let a new player get a feel for 1 bridge or 1 platformer at a time in a safe, convenient environment before asking them to chain multiple bridges together, build over water, or build through weirdly shaped terrain. It's important to master these skills ASAP, so maybe the trial by fire is warranted, but this stage definitely feels way tougher than anything else in the tier.

I can put it a few places later, but I especially don't want a completely safe environment here. I think it's an extremely important lesson that losing lemmings is ok when the save requirement allows it and players should learn it as early as possible.

Quote
Skills 9. Amphibious Engineer Squad - Good. I like how it demonstrates that water can break long falls and that one disarmer can disarm multiple traps. What happens if a swimmer meets a wall, though?

It turns, I could implement that lesson.

Quote
Skills 10. Walking On The Cloner Cliffs - Don't like this one. The fact you can just walk the lemming to the exit and then spam clone in front of it feels really cheap. Doesn't really demonstrate what walkers or cloners can do.

I willl make a slight modification that you can't just clone next to the exit. But I won't show more of the skills just yet. Cloners and walkers, if used to their fully extent are a can of worms better to open a tiny bit later step by step in multiple levels focussing on one or a few more aspects. Trust me there.

Quote
Objects 2. Iron Anthill - A little overwhelming. I think the same concepts could have been taught with a smaller level. Looks fun to optimize, though.

That's totally intended. Every section is completely safe and therefore there is no rush. But players need to experience and handle larger vertical levels. So you should take your time at the start and form a plan for one section after the other.

Quote
Objects 7. Pick Them Up and Push Them Down - Very nice looking level. A nice introduction to its concepts, as well. Is there supposed to be a one pixel seam between the terrain and steel?

Well, that's a fix. :P

Quote
Objects 9. Beam Them Over - Great. Fantastic presentation. At first, I wasn't sure about the claustrophobic digging, but I suspect you're using it to bunch the lemmings up so they don't get teleported without picking up the pickups, so it's fine. Are the pickups necessary, though? I think the level works the same if you just gave 3 builders to start with.

They are indeed not nessesary. They should just represent some breadcrumps you need to pick up on the way.

Quote
Objects 10. Gravity Lab - Cool. It took a couple of attempts to realize the order I needed to assign the skills and how I had to use the second builder. I like how it demonstrates that small delays can make a big difference. Is there a reason why a fencer is provided, rather than a basher? I think a basher would tempt someone to use it to bypass the splat pad, only to find out they needed to save it for the end.

The fencer is just for skill variety, nothing more.

Quote
Objects 11. Stop, Rewind And Go! - Tough puzzle. It does a good job of show casing pause and rewind, but it's pretty challenging for a tutorial, since it involves many different skills and the solution isn't obvious.

That's the problem of the topic: Anything requiring rewind is not tutorial easy and just having builders be assigned to everything is not that exciting at all.
That's also a point, even if this is only the object rank I do intend getting slowly more difficult. The levels should require some thinking in my opinion even if they are just a tutorial.

How long did it take you to solve the level if I may ask? That would be a good indicator for me to see if that was still in acceptable territory or indeed too hard.

Quote
Objects 12. Big Steps Through The Snow - The final bridge is annoyingly precise... which is good, since it forces people to use the hotkeys. I'm really surprised at how much easier the hotkeys make building. This level single-highhandedly changed my entire playstyle!

Yes, that's the reason for it. You really want to use those hotkeys. I always have my fingers on pause and fast forward for example.

Quote
Objects 14. Highlights With A Safety Net - Don't like this one. It's odd that this is the highlight lemming tutorial, when the puzzle is instead about realizing that you can shortcut long falls using miners, and that you can build spiral staircases. Consequently, it feels out of place. More like a basic training level than a skill/object tutorial. I think spamming floaters would be fine to create a sense of 'doing two things at once', even if it makes the puzzle less interesting.

That's a surprise for me. I guess this is a case where things appear so trivial that you don't even realise that they need explaining. Spamming floaters is a bit boring though. Would a few diggers on top of the miners help you here as well?

Quote
The cloner pickup feels unnecessary since you don't really duplicate a skill with it

Let's just say that this sentence is not correct. ;)   It is very often the case in lemmings that you just clone for the extra lemming or the direction change.

Quote
Basic Training 1. Tower of Training - I like that the level goes from bottom to top, rather than top to bottom. I also like that it's mostly safe for lems and has an abundance of skills, allowing for peaceful experimentation. Perfect for a first level of basic training. Floaters, diggers and miners all feel pretty useless, though. While I understand that figuring out which skills are more useful is part of the tutorial, I think some small design tweaks facilitate routes that actually use these skills. Also, I don't like the graves at the bottom of the level. It's easy for lems to get stuck between them and freeing them is more annoying than interesting.

Get stuck, free yourself. That is the reason the graves are there. There are so many cases in levels where your rodents get stuck exactly like this, I just want to prepare you again here, even if that means being a little annoying. ;)

Quote
Basic Training 5. Scrap The Buttons! - Tough. This stumped me for several attempts. I suspect my solution is not the intended solution. I really struggled with finding a way to prepare the path and hit both buttons without a lemming dying or getting stuck. Should probably be after Limited Release, if not later. Realizing I could get the glider to fly again by boosting it up with a builder was a really cool discovery, though.

I agree, will move this.

Quote
Basic Training 7. Backup Wall - Decent. I like the visual design. Using three builders to make a wall is really precise. Took several attempts to make it work, even with frame advance. I think the ground in the starting area should be flat, because the bumps make it hard to make the wall.

I will flatten a hill then.

Quote
Basic Training 11. Central Fear - Great. The fact lemmings can alternate which way they come out of the window was an unexpected surprise! The level looks intimidating, but turned out to a lot easier than it looked. I actually think this could go earlier in the level list. Directly after Steely Halls, maybe?

I think you pointed me at a good swapping candidate for the button level here. ;)

Quote
Basic Training 14. Chalk Walk - Also great. I'm actually surprised by how lenient you were - I placed most of my blockers pixel perfectly and ended up with a huge amount of spare time. Maybe you should shorten the pack's path a little?

Well, I do intended that no blockers needs to be perfect. That can add up quite a bit. You will encounter enough precision during later levels.

Quote
Basic Training 15. The Joy of Sorting - Not a fan. While it was a fun concept like the first time, I think this is too similar to Getting Into Sortings. The first half of the puzzle is almost exactly the same. Also, as a tutorial, I'm not sure what purpose this level serves.

Purpose: Repetiton, training. No new lesson here.

Quote
I remember while doing the Fencer/Miner level the first time, I stopped and had a look at where I needed to go next for a few seconds, and by the time I'd gotten back to my lemmings, the hole they were in was filled up. New player would have a bear of a time trying to mine correctly in the situation.

Reading this, maybe instead of lowring the release rate, I should introduce the pause button earlier on. I think that's a good idea. Normally when you look at/think about/freshly enter a level you should hit pause. If you are not looking diectly at your lemmings the pause button should be on. Pause THE essential button of the game. It should come as early as level 1 or 2. 

Quote
2-4 Any particular reason why tracks orig_16 and 17 are skipped? Not complaining, just curious

I habe no idea why, didn't even know that they were skipped. :P


Also thanks to Proxima for the grammar related suff. :)

Note to myself: Mention skill shadows a bit more. :P


I will either implement these changes with introduction of the 4th rank or a bit earlier.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 08:57:00 PM by IchoTolot »

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2020, 10:50:24 PM »
I have no idea why, didn't even know that they were skipped. :P

The culprit is the music.nxmi file, which is missing the lines TRACK orig_16 and TRACK orig_17. You can add these back if it's not deliberate. Though 16 is one of the more annoying tracks, so I won't complain if you leave this unfixed! :P

Offline DireKrow

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2020, 11:14:15 PM »
Second half of Basic Training:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Attached are the replays of my first successful solutions
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2020, 07:43:01 PM »
I will include fixes based on your feedback when I finished rank 4.

Sorry for being slow here, but right now exams and other stuff are also requiring some attention and the last 2 months or so I've been lacking a bit in the ideas+inspiration departement as well. :P

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #74 on: May 10, 2020, 02:23:47 PM »
V 0.15 is out!

Rank 3 got split up into 2 ranks: The first 14 level were punt into the new rank 3 and the other 16 were put into the new rank 5.

New levels:

- 2 03 (introduction of deadly level sides)

- 3 03 (Builders hitting heads)
- 3 08 (Spiral staircases)
- 3 09 (Training: Blockers and spiral staircases)
- 3 15 (Shimmier + walker)
- 3 16 (Training: Shimmier + walker + glider)

- 4 05 (Teleporter does not reset distance fallen)
- 4 06 (Builder + platformer turn trick)
- 4 07 (Training: Teleporter does not reset distance fallen, Builder + platformer turn trick)

- Rank 5 "Advanced Training" has been added with 19 new levels.

Changes:

- A bunch of spelling errors.

- Music rotation includes orig 16+17 now.

- 1 01 (Text mentiones Pause right away now)
- 1 03 (Reduced RR and lem count)
- 1 05 (Backroute fix, +5 bombers)
- 1 07 (Text mentions that lemming losses are acceptable)
- 1 09 (Demonstrates now that swimmers turn if they swim into a wall)
- 1 10 (Changed exit area so that lems can walk out to the right now)

- 2 01 (reduced decoration)
- 2 03 <--> 2 04
- 2 08 (fixed visual error)
- 2 09 (Text mentiones now that splitters cannot be deactivated)
- 2 15 (Does not require a spiral staircase anymore, -8 builders)

- 3 06 <--> 3 14
- 3 10 (Reduced RR, flattened starting area)
- 3 13 (Test now mentiones multiple pick-up skils and that gliders bounce off walls)
- 3 14 (Made blocker spot clearer now and added steel)
- 3 17 (Widened 3rd gap by 1 pixel)

- 4 02 (Text now mentiones that the crowd should be contained)
- 4 03 (Text now mentiones that the digger holding pit can be affected by RR and terrain)
- 4 13 (New helper pre text)
- 4 14 (Backroute fix)
- 4 17 (Text now provides more hints)

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2020, 11:52:23 PM »
Awesome :thumbsup: I'll play through the new version from the start and make notes.

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« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 10:06:02 AM by Proxima »

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2020, 02:01:26 PM »
V 0.16 is out!

A quick update to fix impossible levels after the 12.9.0 NeoLemmix update.

This new version (or higher) is required to be able to solve all levels using NeoLemmix version 12.9.0 or higher!

Fixed levels:

- 5 07 (the Shimmier jump next to a wall + glider -> getting onto that wall trick is now impossible, the level can now be solved without it, skillset and intro text were adjusted)
- 5 08 (some terrain changes and a new intro text now mentions the possibility to use a shimmier jump to gain extra height for a glider)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2020, 03:03:55 PM »
Is there any more feedback apart from the things Proxima posted about the first 3 ranks?

If not I would soon prepare the next patch addressing the things he posted.

When that's done I will move over to create jumper introduction and training levels.

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #78 on: June 14, 2020, 11:03:54 PM »
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« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 11:38:56 PM by Proxima »

Offline DireKrow

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #79 on: June 16, 2020, 09:20:55 PM »
Attached is a full set of replays done in 12.9.2. The only level I was unable to solve was the very last, "Victory Lap". A couple of the levels have multiple replays, as discussed below.

The level quality is overall very high. I have no broad critiques. Advanced Training is a pretty hard for someone brand new to the game, but it IS 'advanced training'...

Some things I found, most of which I already told you about on the discord (and you may have already fixed):
- The first time a level with a Millas style is selected, such as Basic Training 2 "Hidden Crystaline Temple", it throws a "Invalid Pointer Operation. Falling back to default lemming sprites" error, since those styles currently lack Jumper sprites.
- Skills 5 "Block and Blow In The Snow" can still be completed without using any blockers. See the second replay.
- Objects & Functions 15 "Highlights With A Safety Net", if you assign a miner immediately out of the left hatch, you can complete the entire bridge on the right without ever having to multitask, defeating the lesson of the level. The replay I provided doesn't quite demonstrate this... I do the miner, but then proceed with the rest of the puzzle on the left afterwards anyway so the replay didn't take as long.
- Basic Training 1 8 "Spiraling Out of Control" can be completed without using any blockers. Seem unintended, since using blockers are mentioned in the pretext. See the second replay.
- Basic Training 2 9 "Stepblocked" can be completed without using the walker pickup, as in the replay.
- Advanced Training 12 "A Different Kind of Space" has a couple of backroutes, as we discussed on discord a while back. See the replays provided.

Be sure to check the other Advanced replays too in case I backrouted without realizing it.

EDIT: Solved Victory Lap too! Added the replay to the end.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 09:44:24 PM by DireKrow »
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My NeoLemmix Levels: The Krow Files (File A v1.2 released 21-Feb-2020)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #80 on: July 10, 2020, 01:52:50 PM »
V 0.17 is out!

Changes:

- A lot of addressed spelling errors and formating of pre-level texts.

- 1 05 (Hopefully these terrain changes will now enforce the use of blockers)
- 2 01 (Levelsize culled by 25%, hopefully this now runs smoother)
- 2 15 (The left side is now way more dangerous and requires more attention, miners substituted with bashers, + 3 builders, RR decreased, -5 save req, -5 floaters)
- 3 08 (The right ceiling has been lifted so that the trick should now be enforced)
- 4 09 (Adjusted the left staircase so that now only 1 starting area for the builder does the trick, removed the walker pick-up)
- 5 03 (Added some steel)
- 5 12 (Removed some ramps, quite a few skills are pick-ups now, added a turbine+fire)
- 5 19 (Made the upper wall thicker, a lot of skills are pick-ups now not only because of backroutes but also to reduce entropy by a bit)


Next patch will be the jumper update where I will add tutorials and trick lessons related to the new skill! (and of course address further errors that you find ;P)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2020, 07:17:35 PM by IchoTolot »

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #81 on: July 10, 2020, 04:51:17 PM »
oh Icholotot I didn't even know you had an introduction pack so I downloaded this. As this is an intropack I will solve this on my own. no needed replays from you at this time. but thanks. I really enjoy your packs above others because you know your lemmings. hopefully this pack will continue this.

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #82 on: July 11, 2020, 12:06:45 AM »
I'll post all replays when I'm completely finished, but I'm going talk about stuff now before I forget what the comments I had were.

It's been a while since I looked at this pack to see how it was coming along, but I've finally played through it again.


Currently about halfway through the pack; there's some stuff I think probably should have been introduced by now (mostly regarding cloners) but it's possible I haven't gotten there yet, so I'll hold off on discussing it for now.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #83 on: July 11, 2020, 12:26:21 PM »
Comments on Dullstar's comments:

Basic Training 1 Lv. 7 - Limited Release

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Objects & Functions Lv. 15 - Highlists With A Safety Net

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote
Currently about halfway through the pack; there's some stuff I think probably should have been introduced by now (mostly regarding cloners) but it's possible I haven't gotten there yet, so I'll hold off on discussing it for now.

Stuff will be coming, I just can't introduce everything at once. There are things that have to wait in line.
I also wanted to show off several of the basic colner situations in that specific training level, therefore I first introduced more basic/classic stuff of the other skills. ---> You need to train the skills first before you throw the cloner interaction on top of them. I think the cloner is a very big field with many possibilities and often underestimated in it's complexity.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #84 on: August 15, 2020, 07:17:23 PM »
V 0.18 is out!

New jumper levels:

- 1 11 (Basic jumper introduction)

- 3 10 (jumper+climber, jumper over blocker)
- 3 11 (training)

- 4 05 (jumper+shimmier, jumper + one way field)
- 4 06 (jumper skill interruptions, jumper+glider)
- 4 07 (training)

- 5 06 (jumper+cloner)
- 5 07 (training)

Backroute fixes:

- 3 07 (made the starting platform thinner to prevent a simple digger pit containment)

I bet I made more spelling and other errors again, so be sure to post some feedback! :)

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #85 on: August 21, 2020, 11:09:11 AM »
Since I'm currently stumped real badly in United, I decided to come back to this pack and try out the newest version, as well as to give feedback. I been meaning to give you some feedback for the levels in this pack, but I haven't gotten around to doing so until now due to solving United. I think it was forgotten to state that levels after the new levels were put into the pack were moved by 1 position further. Thus, my replays for Skills 12 still passed the mass replay checker even though they don't solve the "new level" in its position that resulted from the new jumper level in Skill 11. As a result, the Skills rank now has 13 levels instead of 12. In this case, the replays for Skills 12 is for Skills 13, but since that's too chaotic, I just decided to remove the old Skills 12 replays and resolve both Skills 12 and Skills 13 by scratch, but they're both really quick and are over in 5 seconds, so not a problem.

edit: Ugh, just found out that I could had used the text file from the mass replay checker I ran a few days ago for the pack to match up the replays! Man, all that unnecessary time wasted resolving when I had already completed the pack from a few months ago and I thought I couldn't find the replays. :forehead: Well, at least I know for next time now so I'll be using that to send the remaining replays for the last two ranks. I should have them, I just need to match them up and change the file names. Still, it was annoying finding the right replays for each level due to how a lot of the levels have changed positions due to new levels being added to the pack.

Feedback for Skills Rank (click to show/hide)



I will post feedback for the last two ranks next time, as it's already really late where I am.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 10:25:18 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #86 on: August 21, 2020, 02:13:53 PM »
Thanks for the replays and feedback will implement changes accordingly when I'm preparing the next patch. :)

Comments:

Quote
<Middle-click> <P>  <F11>" to "Pause the level by pressing the middle-button, the P key, or F11 key." This is a series of 3 items, so commas are needed. The rest of the paragraph is fine.

Add a comma after <Middle-Click> and a comma after <P>. Also, add "and" after the comma after <P>.

Ok, here some explanation is needed. I don't have any input to the displaying of <Middle-click> <P>  <F11> as this is a special command.

I can let NL display EVERY key a user has binded towards a fuction. This way it doesn't matter what keys a user uses for a function, as the pre-text will always show the correct keys.

<Key> <Key> is just the automated format for that function. You really want to avoid any unsessesary ",", "and" and "or" as the text should fit inside 1 row as I have no way to include a linebreak inside a keylist.

Quote
Yet, you didn't mention in the pre-text of the previous level that diggers stop when there's no more terrain.

I think I even had that, but it was decided to throw it out to keep the first pretext as short as possible. You really don't want a textwall on the first level.

Quote
I think what will surprise players is the part where the shimmier gives up due to touching the gray pillar with his feet rather than encountering a 2 pixel or greater with his hands mentioned in the pre-text for the shimmier introduction level. At least that caught me by surprise. So, I would suggest lowering the pillar so that it doesn't happen or simply get rid of it.

Then I will keep the pillar for 100% and explain it in a pre-text.


For all the rewordings and errors, I will go through them in detail and make changes when I make the actual patch. :)

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2020, 10:23:44 AM »
Feedback for ranks 4 and 5. Also, I've attached my entire set of replays for the pack in my previous post. Please download the new attachment.


Feedback for Advanced Training (click to show/hide)

Quote
Ok, here some explanation is needed. I don't have any input to the displaying of <Middle-click> <P>  <F11> as this is a special command.

I can let NL display EVERY key a user has binded towards a fuction. This way it doesn't matter what keys a user uses for a function, as the pre-text will always show the correct keys.

<Key> <Key> is just the automated format for that function. You really want to avoid any unsessesary ",", "and" and "or" as the text should fit inside 1 row as I have no way to include a linebreak inside a keylist.

Thanks for the information. Let's just say that even though I'm mainly a math person and English isn't my strongest point, proper writing still matters to me, and I'm quite nitpicky when it comes to other people committing English grammar and spelling errors ;P Where I come from, you'll be surprised how many students can't even write an English sentence correctly! Regarding items in a series, commas after each item but not the last one in the series is the rule in English. I know that Lemmings isn't an English game, but it's still good to make sure that errors in writing are eliminated. That's why most of my feedback focused on the English writing in the pre-text and not so much on the levels, even though there is still some of that in my feedback. Writing with many errors still leaves an impression, although maybe not a good one. Sure, I myself occasionally have errors in my writing even after I turn in or submit my assignment, but I take the time to extensively proofread my own writing and make sure that it is error-free as much as possible.

I know this pack is still far from done, but overall great job. This is a wonderfully put together pack that I will gladly refer anyone to. It will surely help people out a lot, especially those who are new to the game and/or NL. Even if the player isn't new to the game and/or NL, I would still advise them to play through this pack from the beginning to the end. Not to mention that you still managed to entertain with great humor in the pre-text for many levels. ;) We all could certainly use a chuckle or two, especially in a time like now with the ongoing global pandemic.

Anyway, I hope you find my replays and feedback helpful so that you can make this pack as great as possible. Now that I finally said my piece and given my feedback for the pack, I'm off to hopefully solve more of your United pack. Looking forward to whenever the next patch for the NL Tutorial pack will be. No hurry, of course.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 10:25:18 PM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #88 on: September 05, 2020, 02:42:29 PM »
If there is no more feedback incoming, I would then start to prepare the next patch soon. :)

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #89 on: September 07, 2020, 01:13:10 AM »
I just did lab workout took me a few attempts to figure it out and I was proud of myself when I did.  its starting to get tough for me.

Aoart from airdrop incoming (bt1 - 17) Ive got all of the first 3 ranks done.

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #90 on: September 07, 2020, 02:27:20 AM »
That's quite surprising, because I thought BT1 17 was really easy. Just do exactly what the pre-text says and you'll see how very easy it is.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #91 on: September 07, 2020, 04:21:35 PM »
Ok, as uberwolfie and mantha may have some more feedback I push the patch preperations to probably next weekend.

I am also a bit surprised that BT1 17 causes some troubles. Try to use the trick stated in the pretext whereever you can and you should be fine in theory.

Maybe all you need is a little distance and next time the solution flows to you. :)

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #92 on: September 08, 2020, 04:05:53 AM »
as i went to type why I couldnt do it I think Ive just figured it out be right back

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #93 on: September 08, 2020, 04:13:37 AM »
yeah i figured it out I was mining in the wrong place

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #94 on: September 12, 2020, 12:24:16 PM »
Hi Icho :)
Did you mean next weekend as in September 19th? I've played the latest update up to the Advanced Training rank (and enjoying it!) would be happy to try and make it to the end during this week and give you what few thoughts I do have.
But if you wanted to get started on the update sooner, obviously you have plenty of more qualified feedback already.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #95 on: September 12, 2020, 06:02:47 PM »
Hi Icho :)
Did you mean next weekend as in September 19th? I've played the latest update up to the Advanced Training rank (and enjoying it!) would be happy to try and make it to the end during this week and give you what few thoughts I do have.
But if you wanted to get started on the update sooner, obviously you have plenty of more qualified feedback already.

Originally this weekend, but there is no rush here so I will wait for your comments. :)

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #96 on: September 12, 2020, 10:36:03 PM »
:D
In which case I'll try not to keep you waiting much longer!

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #97 on: September 14, 2020, 05:36:05 AM »
Here's my feedback on the latest patch! Have to say, it really was a lot of fun to play through, and learn all these new tricks, which I'm sure I'll be using on your other packs at some point! And it was exactly what I was looking for in terms of becoming familiar with all the NeoLemmix features.

I've glanced at the feedback others have given, particularly kaywhyn on the latest update, but haven't studied this thread extensively from the beginning so please forgive me if I've brought up anything someone else already mentioned or something that was already discussed and decided upon at an earlier point. Also, You've got lots of feedback on the pre-level texts, I've limited myself mostly to pointing out only very obvious errors.
I've zipped up all my replays, but note that only the ones with the later date are relevant to the current version (don't know if there's an easy way to separate them…)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Online kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #98 on: September 14, 2020, 06:36:40 AM »
Hey uber, congrats on finishing the pack for the time being, since it's still being expanded and in development. This was a pack that I forgot to list as a recommendation, and one that I would recommend to anyone, regardless of whether the person is new or not to NL. Some remarks on your feedback:

Objects and Functions 5: Yes, there is! When you cursor over a trap and then activate CPM, it'll say one of two things, trap with an infinity symbol next to it, or the number 1. The former are continuous traps that will continue to kill lemmings, while the latter will activate once and then won't ever work again after that. The interesting thing is that when I read your question about that, I thought there wasn't a way with CPM either, but I never ever noticed the trap label differences in CPM before. Now I know too!

Objects and Functions 7: Do you mean how to select a lemming that currently isn't performing a skill? That would be the Ctrl key. Also, this assumes that you chose the traditional layout when you ran NL for the very first time. If you didn't, you can change it via the F3 key in the main menu. You have 3 choices of layouts. I'm not sure what the keys for the other two are, since I have always used the traditional one.

Objects and Functions 15: See above for Objects and Functions 7. Regarding customizing the keys, I'm not sure how to do that.

BT 1 6: Wow, that's a nice solution going to the left! :thumbsup:

BT 1 17: The level's very open-ended, so it's perfectly fine to have plenty of skills leftover. As a matter of fact, it's possible to simply do the level with only one worker lemming!

AT 9: Just for saving time and not have to wait for the worker lemming to turn around. It's optional.

AT 14: Nice, exact same solution as mine! Great minds think alike ;)

Regarding AT 19:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

All your other feedback I'll let Icho address them. He's more than welcome to expand on some of the comments that I already made on some of the levels above.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #99 on: September 14, 2020, 07:29:23 AM »
Seems like I've got work to do next weekend. :)

14: A Different Kind of Space:

Well it seems like you both found the same backroute. :XD:   I will fix it up and in the process direct the player more into the right direction.

Quote
Also, forgive my ignorance, but in clear physics mode, is it possible to see which traps are single-use vs. permanent, or is it just a matter of trial and error?

Yes, it should display it.

But anyway, I'll read through everything when I get to fixing. ;)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 07:43:24 AM by IchoTolot »

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #100 on: September 14, 2020, 08:18:42 AM »
Thanks both of you, it's nice to know these things now :thumbsup:

AT 14: Swag! 8-)

AT 19:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Online kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #101 on: September 14, 2020, 08:56:56 AM »
Ah, I see. It depends on how thick the wall is to begin with. If it's not as high, then other basher cancelling positions will work too. Both the least amount of terrain removed and the next stroke after that will both work. The one absolute must is that the basher has to be interrupted midstroke. If it completes the entire stroke, therefore leaving a vertical strip of wall, then there's no step for the lemmings to be able to step up, and so they'll simply turn around when they hit the wall. You can easily test this on Tame 1 of ONML. Have a climber dig down the first brick wall when it gets to the top, then bash so that a lemming who bashes the wall at ground level only a bit of ceiling will be left above him. Then you'll see other basher positions will still work for lemmings to step up when it is interrupted midstroke.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #102 on: September 18, 2020, 01:42:58 PM »
V 0.19 is out!

Added a logo and rank signs made by zanzindorf! :thumbsup:

Backroute fixes based on the replays by kaywhyn and uberwolfie:

1 05 (Thinner platforms at the start)

2 11 (Added an acid pit)
2 15 (removed a chain, added a flamer)

3 06 (added a terrain ramp so that the trap is reachable from both sides)
3 16 (-1 builder, -1 platformer, added saws to make acutally using the updraft more appealing)

4 06 (-1 basher)

5 07 (adusted the whole solution, +1 save requirement, the glider is now a pick-up, switched up the other pick-ups)
5 14 (-1 walker, the other walker is now a pick-up, -1 save requirement)
5 16 (removed the overhangs inside the structures)
5 21 (lowered the starting ramp by 4 pixels)

Also, a ton of pre-text changes!

Some comments:

Leftover skills are often 100% intended here simply to give leeway or allow an alternative route. Not always though.

Highliting a lemming is really just the right-click for me and I am not familar with a setting that requires control as well. Maybe you need to ask namida there and inform me if there is indeed such a setting.

There are quite often more interesting scenarios to certain behaviors, but quite often those are also reaching either above the scope of the lesson or are dangerously close to redundancy.

Beginning with Basic Training there are levels without text that serve just as training with no new lessons. Repetition is key to learning! Also here levels can start to be a bit more precise in terms of placement and timing. This is a part of many custom levels and I want to force the player at least a few times to rely on this.

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #103 on: September 18, 2020, 02:45:21 PM »
Wow, I'm really digging the new logo and rank signs! Nice job, zanzindorf! :thumbsup:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #104 on: October 11, 2020, 06:09:22 PM »
If there is nothing else to point out I will soon prepare a 1.0 version then. Yes, if there is another skill/object coming it will still need some changes, but other than that it should be good to go.

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #105 on: October 13, 2020, 07:56:57 AM »
Resolved the pack. My replays for 2 15, 4 06, and 5 14 still work, so I didn't include those. Everything else I needed to resolve.

Skills 5: Block and Blow in the Snow Now a blocker use is enforced, although only on the second snow platform. I don't use it in my replay, but you can still bomb on the left on ground level to prevent lemmings from walking into the water. So, the solution now requires a minimum of 2 blockers to be solved

Objects & Functions 11: Gravity Lab Due to the acid pit, only the second builder assignment needed to be adjusted and assigned at the bottom. Nice job! The only thing I'm iffy about in the pre-text is that it mentions that "updrafts prevent lemmings from splatting." This is true only to a certain extent. If the fall is greater than 64 pixels below the updrafts, then they splat as usual. Just me being nitpicky again, and this is a very minor detail that's not worth mentioning anyway, so no changes are needed to the pre-text.

Basic Training 1 06: Central Fear Not sure why my replay broke, but in any case it was a very easy fix, where I just needed to assign a walker to the lemming that finished bashing to the left. At least it's not possible to hold the crowd back in the middle area anymore just like in uber's feedback.

Basic Training 1 16: Scrap the Buttons! With the change, the level's a more decent challenge. Still not that much harder. Nice level.

Advanced Training 7: Checkerboard's Crossing Not sure what changes in the solution, but I believe one change is a glider now comes from the bottom crowd due to it now being a pickup. I don't remember what I had leftover in the old version, but here I have a jumper leftover.

Advanced Training 14: A Different Kind of Space Since my replay for this level still works, I'm wondering if you intended both of uber's and my replay for this level with the changes. We literally have the same solution, and I thought you were trying to prevent our backroute? ??? It hasn't in this case.

Advanced Training 16: Just As He Was About to Fall Not sure why my replay broke here, but easy fix.

Advanced Training 21: Victory Lap I don't recall releasing the blocker while keeping the basher staircase intact being frustrating in that it also took the ceiling above with it, but that's exactly what I experienced while trying to resolve the level. Solution is the same, just needed to readjust the bomber in the first wall, as well as the blocker and the first miner assignments.

Regarding the pre-texts, a lot of them are so much better now, although changes are still needed on some to improve them even more. I'll provide my feedback for that next time.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #106 on: October 13, 2020, 02:11:14 PM »
V 0.20 is out!

Backroute fixes based on the replays by kaywhyn:

- 4 06 (-1 jumper)

- 5 14 (+1 save req, +1 walker as a pick-up, some terrain changes)
- 5 21 (moved a miner pick-up, added steel, minor terrain changes)

Comments:

Advanced Training 7: Checkerboard's Crossing

Let's just say you did the precise route where theplatformer turns around. ;)  Otherwise it's fine as I don't want to enforce that detail.

Advanced Training 14: A Different Kind of Space

Yeah, my fix was just crap. :XD:   This should be better now.

Advanced Training 21: Victory Lap

Your way is asking for frustraition, so I need to clearly block it. Steel should do it! That will hopefully now enforce the other digger as well as a result.

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #107 on: October 13, 2020, 08:47:26 PM »
Replay still works for 4 06, and I was able to resolve everything except for 5 14. Before I post my replays for 5 14 and 5 21, I want to get confirmation from you that 5 14 is either possible and I'm a dummy or it's impossible. Given the skillset at the very start (no walkers, 2 shimmiers, 1 climber, 1 blocker, 2 platformers, 1 basher, and no miners) and the starting situation with the max RR and how you have to save everyone, I'm inclined to say that it's impossible ??? As you need to block with the second lemming at the bottom in front of the teleporter, and the only ways to save a third lemming at the bottom is to waste two platformers so that one of them turns around back to the teleporter, or bash so that the other one turns around during the in-progress basher tunnel. Either way, I won't have enough skills to finish the rest of the level, and the shimmiers certainly won't help to save a lemming.

As for 5 21, yes, I now use all skills. With the steel, it makes it much easier to know where to start bashing.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #108 on: October 24, 2020, 10:56:04 PM »
I still haven't received a report from you as to whether AT 14 is possible or impossible. I'm still convinced that it's currently impossible, given the starting situation players find themselves in at the very start and the save requirement. Can you confirm solvability or lack of for the level? No matter what you do to save both lemmings at the bottom, you won't have enough skills to complete the level. I think here the issue might be incorrect placements for some of the pickup skills.

As for pre-text feedback, I'll do that next time when I send working replays for AT 14 and AT 21.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #109 on: October 24, 2020, 11:04:18 PM »
Totally missed that post. :-[

My replay is still totally fine and works for 5 14. I can 100% confirm solvability!

Quote
No matter what you do to save both lemmings at the bottom, you won't have enough skills to complete the level.

Distance yourself from your previous backroute a bit and take a look what the 3 levels before wanted to teach you. ;)   It's really not much more here, I promise.

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #110 on: October 24, 2020, 11:05:58 PM »
All rightie, thanks. I will send my replays your way after I resolve the new 5 14 then.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #111 on: October 25, 2020, 08:41:47 AM »
And, 5 14 resolved. I have attached my updated replay collection set with the new 5 14 and 5 21 resolved. Yup, I was a complete dummy this whole time. 5 14 is a very nice level now! :thumbsup: I wonder if the level might be a little too hard, though.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The remaining feedback will be on the cleaning up of some pre-texts. Many of them are huge improvements over the last time, so I'm glad to see most of the suggestions implemented :thumbsup: However, there's still some that can be improved further, mostly just comma issues.

Skills 1 - Just a comma is needed after "breath." Otherwise, looks great! ;)

Skills 2 - Great, but unless you already addressed this and I missed it, should it also be mentioned that the grey shadow shows up when the skill in the panel is selected in addition to mousing over a lemming?

Skills 4 - Just a comma is needed after "head." Otherwise, it's good! ;)

Skills 8 - Looks great. I wonder if it should be mentioned that assigning stoners in midair can be used to break falls as well. Then again, you did mention in the pretext a couple of levels before that lemmings die if they fall 64 or more pixels, so it might not be necessary.

Skills 9 - Just a comma is needed after "levels."

Skills 13 - Commas needed after "last," "0," and "button." Also, "assings" is a typo, where it should be "assigns."

Objects and Functions 1 - Just a comma is needed after "area."

Objects and Functions 3 - Instead of a semicolon ( ; ), that should be a colon ( : ). Also, comma after "left."

Objects and Functions 5 - Comma after "activation." Perhaps instead of "with," "through" is probably a better word to use.

Objects and Functions 6 - Commas needed after "fencers" and "miners" in the left/right facing OWWs and downwards OWWs sentences, respectively.

Objects and Functions 7 - Comma needed after "pit."

Objects and Functions 8 - Commas needed after "sometimes," "locked," and "deviate."

Objects and Functions 9 - Commas needed after "sometimes" and "now."

Objects and Functions 10 - Commas needed after "time," the first "receiver" in the second paragraph, after the second "mode," and after "traps."

Objects and Functions 11 - Commas needed after the second "pads" and after the second "which" in the second paragraph. Also, instead of "by contrast," "in contrast" sounds better.

Objects and Functions 12 - Comma after "made," take out the comma after "again." "Frame-stepping" should be capitalized.

Objects and Functions 14 - Comma after "case."

Objects and Functions 16 - Text cuts out at the end. Not sure what should be removed here to cut out the fluff.

Objects and Functions 17 - Comma needed after "otherwise."

BT 1 01 - Comma needed after "first."

BT 1 02 - Comma needed after "steel."

BT 1 04 - Comma needed after "trick." For the last sentence in the second paragraph, perhaps add "can work" after "even diggers" so the beginning reads "Even diggers can work" and the rest of the sentence is fine as is.

BT 1 08 - Comma needed after second "wall."

BT 1 10 - Comma needed after the first "jump" in the third paragraph.

BT 1 15 - "Ammount" is a typo. Should be "amount."

BT 1 19 - Commas needed after "level" and after "also."

BT 1 20 - Commas needed after "sometimes" and after "miner."

BT 1 21 - Comma needed after "time."

BT 2 02 - Comma needed after "also."

BT 2 03 - Very nice pre-text. I wonder if it should be mentioned to stop the digger after at least 9 or 10 strokes (I'm not sure how many pixels the builder adds and the crowd will still be contained). Then again, the player is taught that lemmings cannot get over 7 or more pixel high walls later on, so it might not be necessary to mention when to stop a digger with a builder after a certain number of strokes.

BT 2 09 - Add the word "to" after "latter."

BT 2 16 - Comma needed after second "blocker."

BT 2 20 - Instead of "hole" put "tunnel" since it's technically a tunnel miners make.

BT 2 21 - Comma needed after "bashers."

AT 1 - Remove "to" in the third paragraph.

AT 3 - I feel like "create" sounds better than "form." "Form" works too, just the other one sounds better to me.

AT 4 - Comma needed after "bricks."

AT 9 - Not sure how I missed it the first time, but "under" should really be "above." When you're platforming in the level, the bricks are above the shimmier when he jumps, not under him.

AT 11 - Comma needed after "here."

AT 15 - Remove "in."

AT 18 - Maybe instead of "removed" perhaps "released" is a better word to use here, since we technically want to release the blocker, not remove him by bombing him, for example.

AT 19 - Comma is needed after "way" in the third paragraph.

AT 20 - Add "very" after "are."

AT 21 - Just need to fix the comma being by itself, as it should really be next to "diggers."

With these pre-text changes for the next update, we got one very awesome and excellent NL Tutorial pack which I approve and will highly recommend to anyone! :) Once again, nice job with the levels themselves. Perhaps when the v1.0 of the pack comes NL should definitely ship with this pack along with Redux ;)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #112 on: October 25, 2020, 09:12:36 AM »
Will look through these soon + apply fixes. :)

I really tend to a short reminder pre-text in 5 14 towards the last 3 levels.


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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #113 on: October 25, 2020, 09:24:43 AM »
If you like, I'll be more than happy to take a look at your pre-text for 5 14 when you have it. That way, we can simply fix and tidy it up before you release the final version of 5 14's pre-text along with the next version of the pack ;)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NeoLemmix Introduction Pack
« Reply #114 on: November 14, 2020, 10:21:46 AM »
V 0.21 is out!

Menu + rank graphics have been adjusted for the new release. Please delete your old version of the pack before updating!


When no more feedback is coming in, I will then prepare the V 1.0 release of the pack with kaywhyns feedback.  No worries though, as even after V 1.0 feedback will always be welcome and will be accounted for in future updates.
I just think that the pack is developed enough for a stable release now.

There will be switch ups in the level order in the future though as new skills will be introduced. Therefore I recommend saving replays through the level name and not rank+position.