Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]  (Read 11280 times)

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Offline IchoTolot

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[NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« on: April 08, 2017, 07:33:24 pm »
Here it finally is: The long awaited NeoLemmix conversion of DoveLems!

1.) Download Link:

NeoLemmix player: https://www.neolemmix.com/

DoveLems NeoLemmix (V 3.1  ~ 200 KB): DoveLems V 3.1
Contains the game itself.

Outdated Old formats version (before NeoLemmix 12.0.1):
DoveLems NeoLemmix (V 1.4  ~ 139 KB): DoveLems V 1.4
Contains the game itself.

This pack has no custom music, so edit the standard rotation tracks to your liking to get whatever music you think fits. ;)

2.) Installation:

1. Get a NeoLemmix player from: https://www.neolemmix.com/  and extract it into a folder of your choice (if you already have an up-to-date player you can skip this step)
    Also make sure you got all the styles as well and extracted them into your player's "styles" folder.
2. Unzip "DoveLems.zip" into the main folder of your Neolemmix player.  ../levels/DoveLems should exist now.
3. Run "NeoLemmix.exe" and press F2 in the main menu so you can access the pack through the level browser.
4. Inform yourself about the basics, new NeoLemmix features and hotkeys with the manual: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4081.0
5. Enjoy!

3.) Ratings:

1 – Plain


Plain 25 - Scrub

2 – Coward


Coward 28 - Valley of Chameleons

3 – Devilish


Devilish 26 - The Triangular Prison

4 – Maso


Maso 13 - A Search for Treasure

5 – Bonus

]

Bonus 04 - Desert of Molten Rocks

4.) Some words about the general conversion:

I generally tried to stay very close to the original, but quite some changes were needed due to the NeoLemix physics. There are also some levels which need to have NL features like pick-ups to fix backroutes or to get around some Lemmini glitches.
I've also removed quite a lot of the timers which I thought were not needed and would just annoy the player (of course "time crunchers" and levels where it fits will still have them).
Furthermore I tried to make all traps as visible as possible (without looking stupidly out of place) and esspecially the "Lemming Digging Iron Plates" level was changed towards a little puzzle challenge rather than a guessing the path type of level.

5.) Special thanks:

Well of course to Dodochacalo for making the levels in the first place! :)

As well to:

namida                                    for creating the NeoLemmix engine
GigaLem                                  for making the mainmenu logo for me

6.) CONTACT INFO:

Via email you can reach me at: ScavengerW@gmx.de

Youtube (IchoTolot)     : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4Elfo3E1jTl-SHlOy97kwA
Youtube (Dodochacalo): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6pADGdioEJHas1-Z_YLXw

Please inform me on any errors I made while converting (autosteel forgotten, no author name......) so I can fix them quickly. Furthermore I welcome any sent in in solution replays, so I can get those last pesky backroutes! ;)

Enjoy the pack! :)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 02:00:56 pm by IchoTolot »

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2017, 09:01:33 pm »
A little list which I will update regulary with current levels with known backroutes:

- 3 28
- 3 30

- 4 10
- 4 16
- 4 20
- 4 26
« Last Edit: April 09, 2017, 04:22:52 pm by IchoTolot »

Offline mobius

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2017, 01:22:24 am »
excellent job!! This is an awesome pack, puzzling and artistically second only to PimoLems arguably.

I'm really curious if you kept "Only in the footsteps of God" the way it was. :-\

And I'll stand by my stance that Lemmings Digging Iron Plates should've been kept intact. :P
"All things are empty... Whoever can see this no longer needs anything to attain."
-The Heart Sutra

"Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
-the Dude


Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2017, 08:34:11 am »

I'm really curious if you kept "Only in the footsteps of God" the way it was. :-\


I've placed fireblowers on the visible outside of the boxes ----> therefor the original solution is still required and you can see the danger ahead as well.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2017, 11:25:30 am »
V 1.1 is out!

Following levels have been changed:

- 2 13 visual error fixed
- 2 19 level name updated
- 3 05 builder count set to 6
- 3 28 backroute fixed
- 3 30 backroute fixed
- 4 10 backroute fixed
- 4 16 backroute fixed
- 4 20 backroutes fixed
- 4 26 a lot of backroutes fixed :P

Also solvability with the newest NeoLemmix version confirmed!

Offline joshescue18

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2017, 01:02:02 am »
I solved all of the levels.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2017, 06:29:20 am »
I solved all of the levels.

Thanks for the replays! :)

Will look through them over the days, but I'll be away over the weekend.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2017, 04:13:46 pm »
V 1.2 is out!

The changes are the following:

- Added a postview text for 04 30

- 1 26 backroute fixed

- 2 15 backroute fixed
- 2 30 backroute fixed

- 3 13 backroute fixed + timer added
- 3 20 backroute fixed
- 3 24 backroute fixed
- 3 30 backroute fixed

- 4 02 backroute fixed
- 4 09 backroute fixed
- 4 11 backroute fixed
- 4 17 backroute fixed + timer added

- 5 01 backroute fixed
- 5 02 slight visual error fixed

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2017, 02:39:57 pm »
V 1.3 is out! :)

Last update before the format change and I fixed another backroute in 4 20.

Offline chrisleec728

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2017, 08:15:34 pm »
This pack has no custom music, so edit the standard rotation tracks to your liking to get whatever music you think fits. ;)

How exactly do I do that in NeoLemmix (or in Superlemmini for that matter)?

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2017, 08:44:58 pm »
In NeoLemmix, you should have a text file called "music" inside the NeoLemmix folder. It contains a list of the filenames of the tracks in the standard rotation; NL will look for music files with these filenames in the "music" subfolder. If you want to change the music, you can either rename other tracks to match the old filenames, or put other tracks in your "music" folder and edit the text file to contain the filenames of the new tracks.

Offline chrisleec728

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2017, 09:29:20 pm »
Hmm, NeoLemmix doesn't appear to have a folder. I have NeoLemmix as an EXE file, the level packs I have are all NXP files and I also see INI files called "Hotkeys" and "Settings".

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2017, 09:53:58 pm »
Hmm, NeoLemmix doesn't appear to have a folder. I have NeoLemmix as an EXE file, the level packs I have are all NXP files and I also see INI files called "Hotkeys" and "Settings".

If NeoLemmix hasn't created a "music" folder yet, you can also create one yourself in the same folder as the EXE. Normally when starting NL the first times it should create one itself.

You can then change the orig_XX and ohno_XX tracks yourself and choose tracks of your preference.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2017, 04:28:19 pm »
V 1.4 is out! :)

Level pack should now be independent of ceiling interactions.

Slightly altered levels:

1 14, 1 17, 1 20
2 03, 2 14, 2 15, 2 28
3 06, 3 24
4 05, 4 08, 4 13, 4 16

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2018, 07:33:57 pm »
V 1.5 is out! :)

This is the first version for the new formats version!

V 1.4 will remain in the first post as a backup download.

A known issue is that the custom skillpanel is currently not working, but this will be fixed with a future NeoLemmix player update.

Offline joshescue18

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2018, 03:10:10 am »
I have redone some of the levels.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2018, 02:30:35 pm »
V 1.6 is out!

Fixed a few backroutes thanks to josh and Flopsy :)

- 3 20   tons of backroutes fixed with a few little terrain alterations.

- 4 09   josh's solution is now intended (-5 builders, + 1 save requirement)

- 4 11   backroute fixed

NOTE: Fixes are only for the new format version now!
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 02:39:08 pm by IchoTolot »

Offline joshescue18

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2018, 04:22:44 pm »
I have redone these levels again.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2018, 04:34:43 pm »
I have redone these levels again.

Much better. :)

3 20  I would call a totally acceptable alternative solution.

4 11  is now 100% intended.

4 09  was your solution anyway. ;)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2018, 01:34:42 pm »
V 1.7 is out!

This fixes a backroute on 3 28 (Assault Course). The backroute was quite fiddly and hopefully the fix will enforce the clean intended route.  :)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2018, 09:10:19 am »
V 1.8 is out! :)

- Maso 02 has another backroute fix (- 1 exploder + 1 miner + 1 save requirement)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2018, 12:06:32 pm »
V 1.9 is out! :)

The following levels have been backroute fixed:

- 4 07 backroute fixed with an ice blower
- 4 16 backroute fixed with some OWWs
- 4 18 backroute fixed with a slight terrain alteration
- 4 21 backroute fixed (slight terrain alteration, -1 blocker, -1 climber, +1 save requirement)

- 5 01 backroute fixed with some pick-up-skills

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2019, 01:20:22 pm »
V 2.0 is out! :)

Pack is made fit for 12.7.0! Changes:

The zip is now to be extracted in the main NL folder instead of inside the levels folder.

Visual fixes, because of the fire pit graphic change:

- 1 17
- 2 05
- 3 15

One level's OWW were a bit untidy, so I fixed that:

- 2 16

The levels were not cleansed yet as this still seems a bit buggy in terms of pack structure. ;P

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2019, 07:21:39 pm »
V 2.1 is out!

Levels cleansed.

Offline mantha16

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2019, 12:03:56 pm »
Hi all

Finally joined but have been playing neolemmix for a few years now then when i run out of levels/get stuck I stop playing for a while then delete everything and start over.

I dont understand any of the technical aspects or the correct protocol for this question but 1.28 of Dove Lems is driving me absolutely bonkers I cannot see any way to get the little fellas down. any help would be appreciated.

(please delete if not allowed or move to the correct thread thank you)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2019, 02:49:09 pm »
Hi all

Finally joined but have been playing neolemmix for a few years now then when i run out of levels/get stuck I stop playing for a while then delete everything and start over.

I dont understand any of the technical aspects or the correct protocol for this question but 1.28 of Dove Lems is driving me absolutely bonkers I cannot see any way to get the little fellas down. any help would be appreciated.

(please delete if not allowed or move to the correct thread thank you)

Welcome to the forum! :)

The question is in the correct thread and here is my hint:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The method is unconventional, but let's say if you seen it once you mostly will see it coming the times afterwards.

May I interest you in the currently in development NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (if you haven't already seen it). For example this type of level is introduced there in the skill rank as well. ;)

Offline mantha16

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2019, 06:49:08 pm »
Welcome to the forum! :)

The question is in the correct thread and here is my hint:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The method is unconventional, but let's say if you seen it once you mostly will see it coming the times afterwards.

May I interest you in the currently in development NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (if you haven't already seen it). For example this type of level is introduced there in the skill rank as well. ;)


thank you finally figured it out and rescued 17 of the little blighters.  Now on to the 600000000000000000000 other levels that frustrate me lol

Edited by namida: Your reply appeared inside the quote tag; I fixed this.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 03:55:13 am by namida »

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2020, 07:09:15 pm »
V 2.2 is out!

Fixed a backroute on 3 27 as some of the decoration opened a hidden path.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2020, 06:09:06 pm »
V 2.3 is out!

Backroute fixes:

- 4 05 (the blockers are now pick-ups)
- 4 23 (added some steel)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2020, 01:58:58 pm »
V 2.4 is out!

Backroute fixes:

- 4 26 (added some steel)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2020, 01:15:52 pm »
V 2.5 is out!

Backroute fixes:

- 5 01 (added some steel)

Offline WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2020, 09:34:28 am »
I've made my way through the Plain levels, attached some replays. A few of these may be backroutes (think of that - finding a backroute to an IchoTolot level!) but then, it is the first rank so I'm guessing multiple routes are allowed.

Really enjoyed these levels, not too difficult but the occasional challenge here and there. Some nice design work too.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2020, 03:01:27 pm »
Thanks for the replays. :)

None of these are backroutes, as those levels are very open for the most part.


Quote
think of that - finding a backroute to an IchoTolot level!

To be clear: These are no IchoTolot levels! They are just maintained by me and they were originally created by Pieuw.

Offline Akseli

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2020, 10:23:41 am »
Quote
think of that - finding a backroute to an IchoTolot level!
To be clear: These are no IchoTolot levels! They are just maintained by me and they were originally created by Pieuw.

Created by Dodochacalo, not Pieuw. :)

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2020, 09:44:07 pm »
Created by Dodochacalo, not Pieuw. :)

Of course! I am dumb; my brain was in the wrong pack at the time ;P

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2020, 01:42:30 am »
2-15 Strato and Cumulus: Time limit is 1:30. A solution that feels intended (attached) solves in just under a minute. A plausible solution that doesn't work fails by a fraction of a second. I suggest either shortening the time to make it clearer that this approach cannot work, or allowing it to work (maybe the latter since at the moment the level feels too hard for its place?).

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2020, 07:11:51 pm »
V 2.6 is out!

Backroute fixes:

- 2 15 (added a steel block)

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2020, 01:54:48 am »
just finished replaying dovelems(turning levels green with replays). I noticedl level 30 of maso used 1 glider(new skill).
I know since Dovelems was first in Lemmini what the differences are between that level in Lemmini and neolemmix since I know
Lemmini didn't have a glider skill. I think that was the only level in neolemmix conversion using a new skill unless I missed others.
also some levels had pickup skills which Lemmini didn't have either.
onto Pimolemms

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2020, 02:13:30 am »
Perfect. Now that you've moved your post to the right place, I'm more than happy to address your point of why there's a glider on Maso 30.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

For the Lemmini miner trick demonstration, here's the Youtube replay video by the author of the pack itself, Dodo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf6pO7PY8KQ&list=PL081C2F4D14A12593&index=121&t=0s. Skip to :20 in the video.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2020, 02:21:18 am »
[I was just about to post about the miner glitch, but kaywhyn got in ahead of me.]

Since I'm posting here, I may as well continue the above conversation about Coward 15. I was going to reply again after solving the level so that I could argue from a position of strength, but that hasn't happened yet. The current version of the level is a ridiculous out-of-place difficulty spike, harder even than anything in rank 3, and I absolutely don't believe Dodochacalo would have wanted that. Yes, I know you are trying to enforce the solution from his video, but I don't think he was strict about that being the only solution -- nearly all levels in the first two ranks have a variety of solutions, as is appropriate for the easier ranks.

Furthermore, the level is unforgiving because of an extremely tight timer, a type of level you yourself have said you don't like.

Please be reasonable about this level. Having such a nasty difficulty spike so early really hurts the pack, which is a huge shame when it's otherwise such an excellent pack to recommend to new players.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2020, 02:26:50 am »
thx kaywhyn I see that in the Youtube video. does that work in Superlemmini or is there no dovelemms for Superlemmini. I don't see any listed here in the forum. and your right the miner trick doesnt work in neolemmix. I just tried it. also in the replay I see the glider used right before that spot.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 02:31:58 am by ericderkovits »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2020, 02:28:26 am »
Dovelems is not available for Superlemmini. Are you looking for the pack itself for Lemmini? I got it from Dodo's Youtube channel.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2020, 02:39:24 am »
I tried to get it from the his youtube channel. but I cant locate the file. I know it's for Lemmini but I could maybe convert it to Superlemmini as I'm very good at Superlemmini's structure.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2020, 02:46:48 am »
Click on Dodo's Youtube username, then click "about." Link is in the description. It's a download from Dropbox. However, you can simply change the 0 at the end to a 1 and it will automatically download the pack. Very useful for those who don't have a Dropbox account.

@Proxima I just solved Coward 15. My solution has 10 seconds left on the timer. Yes, I absolutely agree with you that it's a huge difficulty spike for the halfway point of just the second rank! Surely that shouldn't be the case for a beginner-friendly pack.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 03:01:27 am by kaywhyn »

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2020, 02:06:14 pm »
V 2.7 is out!

Fixes:

- 2 15 (added a water pit)


I won't touch the ranking system as I just maintain a conversion. I also want to enforce the intended solution.

But I see the problem and there is indeed something I can do while still keep the intended solution and the ranking structure: Reduce entropy.

The ammount of possibilities is what makes the level tricky. The now added water pit should lock down 2 key skills in place which would result in a significant drop in difficulty.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 04:12:06 pm by IchoTolot »

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2020, 03:55:30 pm »
that's funny my replay shows 26 seconds remaining. of course as I'm lousy at solving so this isnt the replay of mine.

this is the replay I got though.


is this replay the intended solution?

also I think you meant 2.7 is out as when I downloaded it shows 2.7 but here you said 2.6 which was posted earlier with a steel block

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2020, 04:13:38 pm »
This solution id indeed intended.

And yes I meant 2.7 -- fixed that. ;)

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2020, 10:11:43 am »
Yes, Coward 15 is much easier now. Also, I absolutely agree with Icho's assessment that the levels should stay in the ranking and in the exact same order as they were in Lemmini.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2020, 11:43:28 pm »
RE: Icholotot
I noticed your Devilish 25 neolemmix level (The Way to go up) is quite a bit different than lemmini's version of the same level. I have converted the Lemmini version to Superlemmini(still in process of getting bugs out from Superlemmini's version as the conversion is not 100%)
So Im up to Devilish 25 now. Also I used the neolemmix editor to get the Lemmini version(now in Superlemmini) to get it to neolemmix. see Attachment. I don't know why the neolemmix one was so different but if you wish(don't have to) you can replace your's with the actual one Dodochacolo had. also I attached a replay for this actual one that Dodochacolo had on his Youtube channel.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 11:57:59 pm by ericderkovits »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2020, 04:57:50 am »
Huh, that is interesting. Thanks for pointing this out, eric. I just took a look at the current NL version of Devilish 25, and another curious thing I found: I was able to backroute and solve the level without picking up either blocker pickup. It almost fails, but it does work.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is an easy fix, though: just shift the final huge wall to the right. Alternatively, make only two builders available at the start and the remaining 9 builders pickups.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #50 on: July 14, 2020, 06:46:46 am »
Yes I did your version (also I have it attached) also done in just under the 3min that was allowed in lemmini's time.

Have you downloaded the actual one and replay that was from Lemmini(Superlemmini)?
and Can you see the Difference in the level?

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #51 on: July 14, 2020, 07:01:20 am »
Mine is almost exactly the one you posted, except I let the worker lemming fall onto the golden pillar and built the rest of the path instead of one very long bridge from the blue bubble. Nevertheless, both work and avoid the pickup skills completely, so they're backroutes. Yes, I looked at the Lemmini version and so I know the differences in the level layout, and for a while I couldn't remember the solution, but I was able to solve it.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #52 on: July 14, 2020, 01:34:02 pm »
V 2.8 is out!

Fixes:

- 3 25 (some terrain changes)

Let me clarify things here:

In my conversion I used the version of 3 25 as it originally was.
Probably because the backroute where you just use a blocker at the start is unfixable in Lemmini/SuperLemmini made Dodochacalo change the level in a later version. Now we've got pick-up skills to fix this backroute and I decided to use the original layout of the level.

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #53 on: July 14, 2020, 03:59:33 pm »
Ok here is the replay I have for v2.8

Is this now intended?

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #54 on: July 14, 2020, 05:00:38 pm »
Yes, this is intended! :thumbsup:

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #55 on: July 14, 2020, 07:39:25 pm »
So the version you have now(early one) can NOT be used in Lemmini/Superlemmini because of the backroute(using a blocker), but the one he has now can be used in Superlemmini. But his original one(early one) can be used in neolemmix because neolemmix has pickup skills so the backroute can be fixed. I just want to make sure I understand since I'm converting his now(later one) of Devilish 25 to Superlemmini.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #56 on: July 14, 2020, 10:12:18 pm »
So the version you have now(early one) can NOT be used in Lemmini/Superlemmini because of the backroute(using a blocker), but the one he has now can be used in Superlemmini. But his original one(early one) can be used in neolemmix because neolemmix has pickup skills so the backroute can be fixed. I just want to make sure I understand since I'm converting his now(later one) of Devilish 25 to Superlemmini.

Correct. :)

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2020, 06:49:05 am »
I see Icho your youtube video on neolemmix's dovelems is up to devilish 20. almost to 25 then I will see your replay on it. good thing you changed it on kaywhns solution which I managed to do also with a minor variation. I figure you don't do a commentary ones because it's dodochacalo's but it's still nice to see the replays. also the music in your dovelems is better than just the amiga ones which are there because you didn't include a custom music pack for it like you did with Pimolems

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2020, 06:56:44 am »
also i have franlems and dodo's other ones in neolemmix. although many levels have glitches. especially in dodos other packs(catchapack and dodopack).
There's a level called secret labratory. and the glitch only works in Lemmini, not sure about Superlemmini. Definitely not in neolemmix. so I reacreated the solution which looks similar to the glitch one without the glitch.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2020, 07:00:22 am »
also Lemmin's version of dovelemms I converted to Superlemmini

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2020, 08:47:14 am »
finally posted devilish 25 on youtube. yep that's the solution

Offline uberwolfie

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #61 on: September 05, 2020, 09:23:46 pm »
Hi everyone!
First time posting on the forums! :) I started playing Lemmings again recently, made it all the way through Redux (which was great!) and now all the way through DoveLems. I'm not sure whether my replays are of interest, but there are several levels which, if not all backroutes, I was at least disappointed to have solved in a way that didn't let me appreciate the central insight of the puzzle. I've written a rather long document reviewing each level and outlining these alternate solutions, but I don't know if there is really the interest in reading that? It's quite long but I can share if anyone (especially Ichotolot) would find useful. I was sorry to see the DoveLems thread die on the other forum, and maybe that's a better place for it? ??? (these smileys are so cute)
In particular though I wanted to draw your attention here to my solution for Maso 27 ("The Spring"). Given that this was clearly supposed to be some kind of zenith of Maso and thus the whole series, the trivial solution I found which I haven't seen anyone here or on YouTube mention was especially disappointing to me. Forgive me if this is old news though.

If you don't want to dig through the replays:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #62 on: September 05, 2020, 09:39:56 pm »
yes, Your solution for Maso 27 The Spring is definitely a backroute. I wonder if Icho can fix this so this solution can be stopped.

Also I would like uberwolfie's entire replays to be checked for other backroutes that he says are disappointing.

As I would like to see backroutes fixed too.

Now I might have to go my Superlemmini conversion of Dovelems and start working on backroutes from the neolemmix version.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2020, 09:54:17 pm by ericderkovits »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #63 on: September 05, 2020, 09:47:47 pm »
eric, there's no need to post replays like that when uberwolfie has already posted the replay for Maso 27. Icho sees everything, and uber has posted all of the pack's replays, so he will get it from his post.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #64 on: September 05, 2020, 10:02:37 pm »
Thanks for the replays and welcome to the forums uberwolfie! :thumbsup:

I will definitly dig through those and fix any backroutes I come across - especially the "The Spring" one sounds nasty. I bet it can be easily fixed though through something like making the diggers available later through pick-ups right after the staircase or some OWW-up arrows. Will see to it tomorrow probably as it's getting late here. ;P

You can also post your document here if you like. I won't promise reading every sentence if it's extremely long, but having additional insight to your thought process, likes and dislikes can be very helpful for people. I have to point out though that I probably won't do any drastic changes to levels here because of personal dislikes - that are not related to pure unfairness in a level of course - as this is still a conversion of Dodochacalo's pack and his levels.
From the backroute perspective though the replays should be enough for that.

Quote
yes, Your solution for Maso 27 The Spring is definitely a backroute. I wonder if Icho can fix this so this solution can be stopped.

Anyway, Icho here is uberwolfie's replay for Maso 27 The Spring. Also Icho maybe you should check his entire replays for other backroutes that he says are disappointing.

As I would like to see backroutes fixed too.

Now I might have to go my Superlemmini conversion of Dovelems and start working on backroutes from the neolemmix version.

If you noticed anything from my pack topics so far is that I get my hands on all replays posted here, search them all for backroutes and fix them accordingly when I get to it. ;)
They can all be fixed! - although I am not so sure on SuperLemmini as sometimes pick-ups are kind of required.
So there is no need to repost this replay as it's alredy included in the collection - again I go through all of them. :8():

Offline uberwolfie

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #65 on: September 05, 2020, 10:03:32 pm »
To save you going through all of them, here are the levels which I solved with any solution that doesn't seem intended by Dodo or Icho:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline uberwolfie

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #66 on: September 05, 2020, 10:09:56 pm »
Thanks! Great to be here :) this seems like such a nice community, and we are all bound together by the greatness of Lemmings of course!

Yes, Icho, I have noticed your extreme dedication to perfecting levels' solutions, it's most admirable. I'll edit my (quite long) document a bit and then share it here. Of course my personal feelings should not affect anything, but it was definitely the many solutions I found which left me slightly confused that contributed to a certain disappointment overall with DoveLems - but the pack is still a great achievement, as I'm sure we all agree.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #67 on: September 05, 2020, 10:24:14 pm »
This is definitely the right place to be if you love the game and are wanting more to play via the many custom level packs available here. Just search the Neolemmix, levels for other engines, and Superlemmini boards for them. There's so many packs available that it'll definitely take a really long time to get through them all. It's a good thing in that the amount of content available is never in shortage, although what is is the amount of easier levels. You're certainly more than welcome to take on the hard level packs if you love a challenge, but if it's been a while since you played the game, it helps to brush up on the easier packs first before doing so. Of course, you're under no obligation to play the hard packs, but they are available to play if you want to. Although, seeing how you already managed to finish Redux and a really good pack in Dovelems, which I feel is the first custom pack most people play (it certainly was the first one I played once I found out about the forums and transitioned from playing custom packs on Dos), you're probably well on your way towards making good progress to playing the harder stuff.

It's also a very friendly community as you have seen who are more than happy to help you out with anything if you ask and can't figure something out. Maybe you can even get into level designing, although it's certainly fine if you're just here to play level packs as well as to make banter with the community. At least that's what I'm doing. I likely will not get into making level packs, but lately I have been inspired to give level making a try by some levels I've played in the pack I'm currently trying to complete. I've stated over and over that I'm no good when it comes to level designing, but the thing is I won't really know that I'm not unless I try.

Offline uberwolfie

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #68 on: September 05, 2020, 11:29:59 pm »
For what it's worth, attached are my complete thoughts on DoveLems.

Thanks so much for the kind words kaywhyn! Assuming I keep up my current rate of playing the game (which will almost certainly change once I have actual work to do again :D ) I can see myself having the occasional "banter" about various levels. And I could start level designing, I tend to think very visually, so I'm sure it's only a matter of time before ideas start to occur to me for my own levels - but before that happens I definitely look forward to exploring all the many (many) levels on offer here. It is slightly intimidating to see even the hardest DoveLems levels described as "Medium", but I suppose it didn't take me ALL that long to solve most of them...it certainly is a great pack for a smooth transition to the harder tricks that the original games didn't touch.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #69 on: September 06, 2020, 12:03:47 am »
For what it's worth, attached are my complete thoughts on DoveLems.

Thanks so much for the kind words kaywhyn! Assuming I keep up my current rate of playing the game (which will almost certainly change once I have actual work to do again :D ) I can see myself having the occasional "banter" about various levels. And I could start level designing, I tend to think very visually, so I'm sure it's only a matter of time before ideas start to occur to me for my own levels - but before that happens I definitely look forward to exploring all the many (many) levels on offer here. It is slightly intimidating to see even the hardest DoveLems levels described as "Medium", but I suppose it didn't take me ALL that long to solve most of them...it certainly is a great pack for a smooth transition to the harder tricks that the original games didn't touch.

You're welcome. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the level pack in the PDF file. I haven't read all your thoughts on every level of Dovelems, but there are a few points of interest in your intro paragraph. Some remarks:

Pimolems was the second custom pack I played after I finished Dovelems. So far, I have completed both of these on Lemmini. I have yet to take on the NL versions of them. Pimolems was a pack where I gave up in frustration and didn't come back to play the pack again for about 2-3 years. The level that stopped me dead in my tracks was Hurricane 3. When I did come back, I was able to get past it and proceed to finish the rest of the pack. It's definitely harder than Dovelems. As you have seen, Dovelems tends to have a very gentle difficulty curve and it stays fairly simple throughout, whereas for Pimolems, I say the difficulty really picks up about halfway through the second rank, but it definitely gets hard starting with the third rank and stays difficult all the way through the end of the Hurricane rank. Needless to say, Dovelems tends to stay closer and truer to the original Lemmings in terms of ranks and levels (30 levels in each of the 4 main ranks) and difficulty, whereas Pimolems is only slightly different in terms of structure (20 levels each in 7 ranks, except for the Special which has 5 levels in the NL version, two of which are Reunion levels, but only 3 in the Lemmini version) but is definitely more difficult.

Reunion was the third custom pack I played and is, to date, the largest custom pack I have completed (that will soon change because I am nearly done with Icho's other main pack, United). I too have only completed it on Lemmini. At the time when I played through the pack, I was working a job, which was why it took me 3 months to finish the pack. The level that had me stuck the longest was Nightmare 16. Regarding the pack, it has a really great difficulty curve, but it certainly gets harder much faster than the original game. In particular, the last few levels in the first rank are all difficult. However, I'm quite certain you'll be able to finish it. If you ever get terribly stuck, you can always ask for hints and send a replay for Icho to see, and he'll be glad to tell you whether or not if you're on the right track towards a solution.

Geoflems is a pack I certainly would like to play at some point. From what I read, it's on the much easier side, which I can certainly use after having played mostly United for the last several months, and the levels in there are quite brutal (hard-extreme). Though it's almost been a year since I first played the pack, and I have had so many struggles, I am getting very near the end (only 6 levels left in the Bonus rank, then just 4 Genocide levels I need to go back and resolve the new versions of and then I'll finally be done). Needless to say, after you finish Reunion and if you're definitely feeling up to it, feel free to take on Icho's other pack United, but be warned it's probably the most difficult pack there is currently available. It's definitely not for the faint of heart or the easily frustrated. Or feel free to stay to other easier packs. Up to you, of course. 
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 12:09:49 am by kaywhyn »

Offline uberwolfie

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #70 on: September 06, 2020, 12:33:25 am »
No problem! Had so many thoughts that I felt I had to record them.
PimoLems does seem more "condensed" in difficulty than DoveLems, certainly, and definitely harder. Can't say for certain, but I'm halfway through, and I think that overall I will find it a stronger pack than DoveLems.
Good to hear that Reunion is approachable. United definitely seems like it's the work of a madman! (in the best possible sense naturally :P)
GeoffLems I saw namida speak favourably about - it's pretty amicable so far!

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #71 on: September 06, 2020, 12:47:12 am »
If you're looking for other packs to play, other packs that I have played that I can also recommend are Reverse Lemmings, Sublems, Mobilems, and Lemmings Plus 1. The first two are currently available for Superlemmini and NL, while Mobilems is currently available for Lemmini and NL and is currently being converted to Superlemmini by eric. Lemmings Plus 1 is available for Dos and NL. All of these packs are on the easier side. The first one, as the name says, is simply the original Lemmings with a twist: The entrances and exits switch places and the skillsets adjusted accordingly. Given how you already finished Redux which has most of the levels from the original game, this should be very enjoyable for you. The last one is comparable to the original Lemmings in that there's 4 ranks with 30 levels each and very similar difficulty.

If you're willing to look into Superlemmini, I can also recommend eric's conversion packs of the official games (Lemmings, ONML, Genesis, Sega, etc) and Lemmini packs. Also, I haven't played them, but I would love to eventually get to namida's other Plus and Omega packs, so I can suggest you take a look at them too, especially if you want content a little on the easier side.

In any case, enjoy your time here on the forums! :thumbsup: It's always wonderful to see more new members registering and joining.

Offline uberwolfie

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #72 on: September 06, 2020, 12:54:44 am »
Cheers for that, great information!
I might look into SuperLemmini, it seems like it has it's own thing going, but tbh NeoLemmix just seems so miraculous to me (compared to the original games) that it's hard to look past it right now.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #73 on: September 06, 2020, 01:00:04 am »
Cheers for that, great information!
I might look into SuperLemmini, it seems like it has it's own thing going, but tbh NeoLemmix just seems so miraculous to me (compared to the original games) that it's hard to look past it right now.

That's completely understandable. Not a problem with the multitude of engines available, as there's at least something for everyone.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #74 on: September 06, 2020, 09:08:10 am »
Cheers for that, great information!
I might look into SuperLemmini, it seems like it has it's own thing going, but tbh NeoLemmix just seems so miraculous to me (compared to the original games) that it's hard to look past it right now.

I feel like I should mention the new NeoLemmix Introduction Pack here as well: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4332.0

It's still in development (even if somewhat close to the first V1.0), but I could still use some feedback there. It will 100% teach you things I you didn't know were possible before! ;)

I aimed it at people learning the basics as well as people who want to know more about the most common and even some advanced tricks.

The levels in there are partly trivial for teaching purposes, but still should offer some challenge later as you then need to see where and how you need to apply your new knowledge. The later training ranks should definitly pack at least a bit of punch.

Offline uberwolfie

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #75 on: September 06, 2020, 11:37:00 am »
Thanks Icho! I played through the first 3 ranks of the intro pack, I like it! Pretty useful given that I'd be completely in the dark about a lot of neolemmix features otherwise.  I also found the manual, which was very helpful, but it's odd that it doesn't come with the program itself? And doesn't seem to be anywhere obvious on the website? In any case, I'll definitely try and complete the pack, and let you know if there's anything I notice :thumbsup:

The early levels may be trivial (and they certainly don't stay that way!) but I think I underestimated how much the classic mechanics of Lemmings 1 got seared into my brain as a young child - it was surprising how difficult it was to visualize the effect of the unfamiliar skills, and notice their use in solving specific problems.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #76 on: September 06, 2020, 06:52:26 pm »
V 2.9 is out!

Backroute fixes thanks to uberwolfie's replays:

- 2 03 (added a OWW)

- 3 03, 3 14 (added steel)
- 3 10 (the blocker is now a pick-up skill)
- 3 21 (added steel)

- 4 10 (moved a trap, added steel)
- 4 11 (added a OWW)
- 4 12 (added a OWW)
- 4 13 (added steel)
- 4 16 (added steel)
- 4 17 (added a trap)
- 4 20 (added traps)
- 4 27 (the diggers are now a pick-up skill)
- 4 29 (added steel)

Some comments to the feedback/solutions:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


I haven't gone through your whole document yet, but will read through it at some point. :)

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #77 on: September 06, 2020, 08:58:57 pm »
Due to the new release 2.9, 3 of my replays broke,so had to resolve those 3.

1, Devilish 10 The Eighth Wonder of the World broke to due added blocker pickup skill.
2. Devilish 21 Lempipe broke due to added steel
3. Maso 27 The Spring broke due to added digger pickup skills.

Thanks Icho for updating as We want packs to be backroute fixed even it's Dodochacalos' pack. As long as the intended solution is enforced and not changed.

Offline uberwolfie

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #78 on: September 07, 2020, 04:03:40 pm »
Great stuff! I look forward to making sure my solutions are up to date!

Although my document was a nice catharsis for me, mainly I wanted to see if anyone had found these backroutes before. Also the tone at times is maybe a little strong...but I'm sure for fans of Dodochacalo reviews and opinions on his levels might still be interesting to read.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #79 on: September 10, 2020, 08:39:25 am »
Now Icho that you posted on Youtube Dovelems maso 27 The Spring I see you still have the version without the pickup skills. I thought you would post the version with the pickup skills since you changed
it before this video.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 08:47:25 am by ericderkovits »

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #80 on: September 10, 2020, 11:29:24 am »
Now Icho that you posted on Youtube Dovelems maso 27 The Spring I see you still have the version without the pickup skills. I thought you would post the version with the pickup skills since you changed
it before this video.

The videos are recorded a while before they are sheduled to air. I am not recording them again if the intended solution is still the same and even more so if the only change is that a pick-up skill has been added.

Offline Shmolem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #81 on: September 21, 2020, 05:55:40 am »
Hey people, I decided to give Dovelems a shot recently after I got a bit stuck on Lemmings Plus 1. I’m around the middle of the Devilish rank. Very good pack so far! I’m really liking it. I’ll get replays after
I beat the pack.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #82 on: September 21, 2020, 06:03:43 am »
Wow, way to go! :thumbsup: Good choice of a pack to tackle here, Shmolem. Pretty easy and gentle for the most part, and even Devilish and Maso aren't too difficult IIRC. Probably less difficult than the last two ranks of Sublems. It's been much longer since the time I played Dovelems than Sublems, and I first played the pack through Lemmini, so I don't remember most of the levels too well. Anyway, best of luck on your quest to conquer the pack. I know you can do it just the same! :)

Offline Shmolem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #83 on: September 21, 2020, 06:16:17 am »
I was expecting this pack to ramp up to be pretty hard like Sublems did for me but so far it hasn’t been too bad. There was one level I struggled with a little bit which was Devilish 4 but other then that it’s been fine. I’m not sure what’s with me and Lemmings Plus but I take a break, Go back to it, beat some levels, get stuck, take a break, go back to it, beat some levels, get stuck, and on and on. It really is weird

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #84 on: September 21, 2020, 06:59:20 am »
Your strategy of leaving a pack for a time when it starts getting too hard for you and playing another pack in the meantime is perfectly viable. I do this as well, and I did that a lot when I was playing through United. Eventually, when I felt ready, I came back to United and was able to get through the roadblocks somewhat more easily. I know that you'll eventually beat all of Lemmings Plus 1 as well when you do come back to it. It's a great first pack by namida from what I remember. Starts off pretty easy and gets difficult near the end. Dovelems doesn't ramp up as much throughout the entire pack, so the difficulty is fairly low and flat.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #85 on: September 21, 2020, 07:01:26 am »
Yes, Dovelems is a good choice, as it's an easier pack. Of course Icho had to fix these levels recently as Uberwolfie had some backroutes. But even then it's pretty easy of a pack, easier to me than sublems. And yes Devilish four is kinda hard, not because of the solution but because of the tight time limit. I think I remember it being like 4 seconds left in my Superlemmini conversion of this
level that gave me fits, because of the time limit. It took me probably more tries than any other level I think, as the timing of the few skills had to be worked out so the level can be finished on time.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #86 on: September 21, 2020, 07:44:13 am »
Nice to hear you are enjoying the conversion, Shmolem! :thumbsup:

It's totally fine if you are stuck at one point that you try your luck at another. I do that as well. :)

Offline Shmolem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #87 on: September 24, 2020, 12:24:07 am »
I’m at the very end of Devilish now, just beat Devilish 25. (Which I’m pretty much certain I backrouted)

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #88 on: September 24, 2020, 12:30:30 am »
Not again. This level had to be fixed by Icho, since Kaywhyn solved it initially without even using the blockers. you may want to post your replay for devilish 25 for Icho, to see if it's a backroute that he may have to fix again. Hopefully your using the most current version of Dovelems

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #89 on: September 24, 2020, 03:02:58 am »
Like eric mentioned, are you certain you have the latest version of the pack, Shmolem? I just tried Devilish 25 again, and I cannot backroute it like I previously did before, and I'm very well-known by Icho for backrouting his levels. So, if you think you were able to backroute the level, it probably means you have an outdated version of the pack. As a matter of fact, some time ago, I gave a suggestion that the NL main menu should display what version of the pack players are playing, because sometimes it's the case where you might have downloaded a level pack from a really long time ago, and then sometime down the line, the pack author releases a new update of the pack, but sometimes you might not had downloaded the most recent version at the time. namida did see my suggestion on the suggestions board, and he said that it's on his "to-do list." I think it would be quite helpful so that you can easily check whether you have the most recent version of the pack or not. Some packs already display the pack version in the scroller at the bottom, though, so those aren't a problem. It's the ones that don't that can be problematic in knowing whether you're playing the most up-to-date version.

Anyway, you can still send the replay over and then I can quickly verify. Knowing you, you'll probably do it after you finish the rank, which is perfectly fine, as that's generally what I do as well.   

Offline Shmolem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #90 on: September 28, 2020, 08:07:19 pm »
Sorry for the late response but here it is. I'm not sure how to check the version of the pack but I used all of the skills in the replay so it may not be a backroute.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #91 on: September 28, 2020, 08:14:29 pm »
Hmm, not exactly intended, but perhaps an acceptable variant. The intended way uses a different creative trick not seen in many custom levels. Looks like the trick I showed you on Hellish 19 of Sublems came in handy here, even though it's not necessary to solve either level. Then again, the easiest fix I can think of here to block off your solution is to simply extend the OWW to the entire wall, including the top. Let's see if Icho agrees.

As for checking the version, Dovelems is one of the few packs that doesn't display the version of the pack anywhere in the main menu, including the scroller at the bottom in the main menu, so instead you'll have to check the dates of the affected levels and match it up to the date that the updated version was released in this topic. However, I can tell you that from watching the replay that you have the up-to-date version of Devilish 25. I'm just not sure if you have the most recent version of the pack, v2.9, which is dated September 6 this year. There were a lot of levels that got updated with this one, so you'll have to check if any of the levels affected are dated September 6 in your NL directory. If you find any, then you have the most recent version of the pack. If not, you can download the latest version in the OP.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2020, 09:52:23 pm by kaywhyn »

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #92 on: September 29, 2020, 01:40:19 am »
oh, wow Yeah let's see if Icho updates Dovelems again for this Devilish 25 to prevent this solution. I would agree with Kaywhyns solution to fix the level.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #93 on: September 29, 2020, 06:55:36 am »
V 3.0 is out!

Fixes:

- 3 25 (extended the OWW)

Yes, that fix is 100% the easiest. Also, thanks for the replay Shmolem! :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 12:23:38 pm by IchoTolot »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #94 on: September 29, 2020, 08:40:44 am »
(extended the OWW)

Yes, that fix is 100% is easiest.

Wow, nice to see my suggestion of a fix was actually used :) I haven't even gotten into level designing yet and already I'm starting to think like a level designer when it comes to backroute fixing ;) I feel a level collab coming one of these days. After I have made some decent levels myself first, of course ;)

Good luck in the rest of your quest to beat Dovelems, Shmolem. You can do this! :thumbsup:

Offline Swerdis

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #95 on: October 02, 2020, 05:13:13 pm »
Hello,

after having completed the Devilish rank today, I possibly found some backroutes/alternative solutions for some levels - which could be fixed or not.

These are: Devilish 5 (Brick-a-Brack), Devilish 14 (Chernobyl Survivors), Devilish 18 (It's an Evil Symphony!), Devilish 20 (Stratum), Devilish 21 (Lem Pipe), Devilish 24 (Staircase to the Bottom), Devilish 26 (The Triangular Prison which remains empty all the time), Devilish 28 (Assault Course) and, finally, Devilish 30 (Make the Big 8).

All my solutions can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/user/Vidusaka 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2020, 06:17:38 pm by Swerdis »

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #96 on: October 02, 2020, 05:58:09 pm »
Haven't watched any of Swerdis's youtube solutions but if there needs to be fixes, I'm sure Icho will be on it.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #97 on: October 02, 2020, 08:00:55 pm »
Hello,

after having completed the Devilish rank today, I possibly found some backroutes/alternative solutions for some levels - which could be fixed or not.

These are: Devilish 5 (Brick-a-Brack), Devilish 14 (Chernobyl Survivors), Devilish 18 (It's an Evil Symphony!), Devilish 20 (Stratum), Devilish 21 (Lem Pipe), Devilish 24 (Staircase to the Bottom), Devilish 26 (The Triangular Prison which remains empty all the time), Devilish 28 (Assault Course) and, finally, Devilish 30 (Make the Big 8).

All my solutions can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/user/Vidusaka 


I was aware of your videos and I appreciate the feedback. ;)    Icho sees many things. :8():

I just wanted to wait until you have uploaded the complete pack, then I plan to watch them all and take notes on what to be fixed.

Quite a few of the levels you listed are problem childs and as I took a look 3 14, 3 18, 3 20, 3 21, 3 26 and 3 30 definitly need fixes, but again I will wait until you posted your complete solution collection and then prepare the appropriate fix. ;)

Offline Shmolem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #98 on: October 07, 2020, 12:54:53 am »
Devilish 27 has stumped me and I've taken a break for a while. It seems like you need 13 builders to complete it but you only get 12.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #99 on: October 07, 2020, 04:25:25 am »
Hey Shmolem, not a problem at all. If you're stuck on a level in a particular pack, then getting away from it and playing other packs in the meantime can definitely do wonders. Just remember that you can always ask Icho or any of us who has completed Dovelems for a hint if you need one.

As for Devilish 27, I took a look at the level, and yes I remember this one being a difficult one when I first played the pack on Lemmini way back in 2013 or around there. Obviously it's a remake of "They just keep on coming/One way or another" from the original Lemmings, and I think the solution is pretty awesome here. I couldn't remember the solution for a couple of minutes, but I did play it and I was able to solve it again after having not played the pack for a really long time. Regarding your approach, if you were successful in pulling off that route, it will have to be patched out. However,

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2020, 04:56:25 am by kaywhyn »

Offline Shmolem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #100 on: October 12, 2020, 08:00:30 pm »
SOOOOOOOO..... I think I may have completely broke this level, OR, this is the actually solution. I used every skill so it may be intended but it's so weird it doesn't feel intended. But with my luck it's gonna be another Sandopolis Act 2 thing where I thought so hard that it was a backroute when it wasn't. I really can't stop thinking about the whole Sandopolis Act 2 thing huh?

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #101 on: October 12, 2020, 08:09:10 pm »
That is 100% NOT intended. Far from it. For one thing, it avoids the central trick completely. For another, you SHOULDN'T be able to dig through steel like that, as steel is impossible to destroy in NL. Then again, the moss is definitely to blame here, because it goes through the entire steel block from top to bottom and thus allowed you to dig there.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 08:14:12 pm by kaywhyn »

Offline Shmolem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #102 on: October 12, 2020, 08:15:49 pm »
Yeahhhh... that’s kinda what I thought. I was just bored trying to solve the level then I noticed the digger would let me go through that so I’m like.. HOLD UP! I didn’t think it was intended but I did it anyway I think I’ll finish Devilish and go back and try to do the intended way.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #103 on: October 12, 2020, 08:20:02 pm »
Yeah, that needs a fix!

I will prepare a big patch anyway when Swerdis has uploaded the rest of the pack on YT and your backroute will be addressed there as well. :)

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #104 on: October 12, 2020, 08:29:10 pm »
Yeah, that's definitely shouldn't be allowed digging thru steel. yes the moss is to blame. I tried digging in my Superlemmini Dovelems for this level, It won't even dig anywhere on steel even with a little bit of moss.

So your solution couldn't even work in my Superlemmini Devilish 27

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #105 on: October 12, 2020, 08:55:36 pm »
I checked WillLem's Amiga version of They Just Keep on Coming/One Way or Another, and it suffers from the exact same problem of being able to dig through the moss on the steel. I guess it's confirmation that anytime there's destructible terrain on steel then you can still go through it.

Since you're close to finishing the pack as well, Shmolem, perhaps Icho can wait for Swerdis' and your replays before a pack update. In the meantime, don't worry about having to resolve Devilish 27, although you're still more than welcome to go back and see if you can find the intended solution if you want.

Keep up the great work! :thumbsup:

Offline Swerdis

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #106 on: October 20, 2020, 10:48:24 pm »
Yeah, I'm through it. So I guess Icho can patch all the backroutes right now. Good pack. Maso was in large parts easier than Devilish. Hardest levels for me: "Pletorah's Temple" and "Make the Big 8", followed by "The Way to Go Up". "A Z That Stands For Zemmings" was also difficult, but for the execution, not for the idea.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #107 on: October 20, 2020, 11:34:46 pm »
Yeah, I'm through it. So I guess Icho can patch all the backroutes right now. Good pack. Maso was in large parts easier than Devilish. Hardest levels for me: "Pletorah's Temple" and "Make the Big 8", followed by "The Way to Go Up". "A Z That Stands For Zemmings" was also difficult, but for the execution, not for the idea.

Congrats Swerdis! :thumbsup: I can attest to all those levels you mentioned that you found difficult, as I remember them being difficult as well when I played through the pack years ago. The only level that you mentioned that I couldn't remember was Make the Big 8. I took a quick look at the level and I somewhat remember it being challenging. At the same time, I have only played Dovelems on Lemmini, and if I'm not mistaken, only Devilish 25, "The way to go up," is different in terms of level layout. Everything else should pretty much be the same or mostly the same in terms of layout. Other levels they had to be modified from their Lemmini versions in order to work in NL due to differences in mechanics in the engines, such as those two levels with terrain in the steel (actually, I'm wrong here, there's only one Dovelems level with the destructible steel in Lemmini, the other one I'm thinking of is a level from Pimolems. My age is definitely showing :crylaugh:) . They're much harder in Lemmini, because it's a blind "guess the path through the steel," i.e, some of the steel was fake so that they could be destroyed by the digging skills. Supposedly, according to the level pack author there are clues to help you figure the path to take, but what those are I don't know. I've solved both those levels in the Lemmini version, I just don't know the clues that help you know where to dig in the steel. In any case, all the fake steel in those two levels was replaced with terrain in the NL version, and hence those two are no longer blind "guess the path through the steel." Plus, if you don't even want to bother guessing which path to take, simply take a look at the NL version so that you know where to dig in the Lemmini version or just look up a replay.

Similarly, the final level, Maso 30, relied on a miner quirk that works only in Lemmini (this is also wrong, as it was just pointed out to me that the miner quirk on this level also works on Superlemmini, and so it's not exclusive to Lemmini. Nice to know. I also tried it just now and indeed it does work. Until then, I had never encountered the behavior in Superlemmini, hence why I was unaware of the miner quirk also working in SL. In short, works on Lemmini and Superlemmini, but not NL), but that quirk is absent in NL, and hence that's why there's a glider in the NL version instead. It's pretty much the closest you can get to the original solution in this way, and hence why some levels require a reworking when converting between engines. I'm sure there are other levels in the pack that had to be tweaked in some way in order to work in NL, but it's been a very long time since I played the pack, so a lot of the levels by title will escape me until I take a look at them.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 09:09:44 am by kaywhyn »

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #108 on: October 21, 2020, 02:08:35 pm »
Thanks for the videos Swerdis! :)

Will look through them over the next days and then prepare a patch to fix the backroutes you found.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #109 on: October 22, 2020, 02:07:59 pm »
V 3.1 is out!

Backroute fixes:

- 3 14 (-1 climber)
- 3 18 (5 climbers are now a pick-up skill)
- 3 20 (1 miner and 1 builder are now a pick-up skill)
- 3 21 (5 builders are now a pick-up skill)
- 3 25 (1 of the pick-up skills has been moved)
- 3 26 (1 builder is now a pick-up skill, added a OWW)
- 3 27 (Fixed up the hole in the steel)
- 3 30 (added another icicle trap and an ice blower)

- 4 05 (1 miner is now a pick-up skill)
- 4 10 (added steel)
- 4 16 (removed some terrain+steel, added some steel)
- 4 23 (made a wall thinner and moved some terrain)
- 4 26 (2 builders are now a pick-up skills)

- 5 02 (added fire)
- 5 03 (some terrain changes, added steel)
- 5 05 (some terrain changes)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 10:11:23 pm by IchoTolot »

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #110 on: October 22, 2020, 09:32:27 pm »
ok with this newest update 3 of the replays I have broke.


The 3 that broke were
1) Devilish 14 Chernobyl Survivors(due to -1 climbers, had to solve myself, but still similiar solution.)
2) Maso 23 The Motor show(due to thinning of wall and movement of terrain-just had to alter previous replay some-still same solution)
3) Bonus 5 Lemmings' Ark (due to terrain changes, replay broke. had to alter replay-still based on same solution)
    Also Note this Bonus 5 Lemmings' Ark was actually a Genesis level(Mayhem 30). I'm sure other Genesis levels are filled with backroutes too, but I don't think anybody has patched them.

Also you(Icho) listed 4-12 as being fixed, I think you meant 4-16 as the changes you described in 4-12 were applied to 4-16(Complete Autarky)


Anyways here are my 3 replays that broke(all other ones still work)


Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #111 on: October 22, 2020, 09:50:50 pm »
Got the new pack update, and just wanted to give a quick remark for Devilish 27. Yes, the central trick required to solve the level is definitely enforced now despite how you can still abuse the digging through steel. However, you can only do that with the left entrance, and there's two spots after the bear trap where it's possible. It doesn't really matter, since the level's rendered impossible to solve if you do abuse it, as you won't have enough skills in the end. Thus, no need to fix the destructible moss in steel in those two places. The most important thing is that the digger must now be used in a specific area on the right side, thus enforcing the central trick.

Besides Devilish 27, I haven't looked at any of the other changed levels in the update. In any case, it'll be quite a while before I play this conversion pack, particularly since I have already completed the pack on Lemmini years ago. Essentially, it means playing the NL version of Dovelems is low priority for me, and there's a bunch of other packs I haven't played that I would like to get to soon. In the meantime, let's see if Shmolem is able to find any further backroutes.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Reply #112 on: October 22, 2020, 10:12:32 pm »
Quote
Also you(Icho) listed 4-12 as being fixed, I think you meant 4-16 as the changes you described in 4-12 were applied to 4-16(Complete Autarky)

Fixed. :)