[NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]

[IchoTolot]

Here it finally is: The long awaited NeoLemmix conversion of DoveLems!

1.) Download Link:

NeoLemmix player: https://www.neolemmix.com/

DoveLems NeoLemmix (V 3.9  ~ 203 KB): DoveLems V 3.9
Contains the game itself.

Outdated Old formats version (before NeoLemmix 12.0.1):
DoveLems NeoLemmix (V 1.4  ~ 139 KB): DoveLems V 1.4
Contains the game itself.

This pack has no custom music, so edit the standard rotation tracks to your liking to get whatever music you think fits.

2.) Installation:

1. Get a NeoLemmix player from: https://www.neolemmix.com/  and extract it into a folder of your choice (if you already have an up-to-date player you can skip this step)
    Also make sure you got all the styles as well and extracted them into your player's "styles" folder.
2. Unzip "DoveLems.zip" into the main folder of your Neolemmix player.  ../levels/DoveLems should exist now.
3. Run "NeoLemmix.exe" and press F2 in the main menu so you can access the pack through the level browser.
4. Inform yourself about the basics, new NeoLemmix features and hotkeys with the manual: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4081.0
5. Enjoy!

3.) Ratings:

1 – Plain

Plain 25 - Scrub

2 – Coward

Coward 28 - Valley of Chameleons

3 – Devilish

Devilish 26 - The Triangular Prison

4 – Maso

Maso 13 - A Search for Treasure

5 – Bonus

]

Bonus 04 - Desert of Molten Rocks

4.) Some words about the general conversion:

I generally tried to stay very close to the original, but quite some changes were needed due to the NeoLemix physics. There are also some levels which need to have NL features like pick-ups to fix backroutes or to get around some Lemmini glitches.
I've also removed quite a lot of the timers which I thought were not needed and would just annoy the player (of course "time crunchers" and levels where it fits will still have them).
Furthermore I tried to make all traps as visible as possible (without looking stupidly out of place) and esspecially the "Lemming Digging Iron Plates" level was changed towards a little puzzle challenge rather than a guessing the path type of level.

5.) Special thanks:

Well of course to Dodochacalo for making the levels in the first place!

As well to:

namida                                    for creating the NeoLemmix engine
GigaLem                                  for making the mainmenu logo for me

6.) CONTACT INFO:

Via email you can reach me at: ScavengerW@gmx.de

Youtube (IchoTolot)     : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4Elfo3E1jTl-SHlOy97kwA
Youtube (Dodochacalo): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6pADGdioEJHas1-Z_YLXw

Please inform me on any errors I made while converting (autosteel forgotten, no author name......) so I can fix them quickly. Furthermore I welcome any sent in in solution replays, so I can get those last pesky backroutes!

Enjoy the pack!

[IchoTolot]

A little list which I will update regulary with current levels with known backroutes:

- 3 28
- 3 30

- 4 10
- 4 16
- 4 20
- 4 26

[mobius]

excellent job!! This is an awesome pack, puzzling and artistically second only to PimoLems arguably.

I'm really curious if you kept "Only in the footsteps of God" the way it was.

And I'll stand by my stance that Lemmings Digging Iron Plates should've been kept intact.

[IchoTolot]

I'm really curious if you kept "Only in the footsteps of God" the way it was.

I've placed fireblowers on the visible outside of the boxes ----> therefor the original solution is still required and you can see the danger ahead as well.

[IchoTolot]

V 1.1 is out!

Following levels have been changed:

- 2 13 visual error fixed
- 2 19 level name updated
- 3 05 builder count set to 6
- 3 28 backroute fixed
- 3 30 backroute fixed
- 4 10 backroute fixed
- 4 16 backroute fixed
- 4 20 backroutes fixed
- 4 26 a lot of backroutes fixed

Also solvability with the newest NeoLemmix version confirmed!

[joshescue18]

I solved all of the levels.

[IchoTolot]

I solved all of the levels.

Thanks for the replays!

Will look through them over the days, but I'll be away over the weekend.

[IchoTolot]

V 1.2 is out!

The changes are the following:

- Added a postview text for 04 30

- 1 26 backroute fixed

- 2 15 backroute fixed
- 2 30 backroute fixed

- 3 13 backroute fixed + timer added
- 3 20 backroute fixed
- 3 24 backroute fixed
- 3 30 backroute fixed

- 4 02 backroute fixed
- 4 09 backroute fixed
- 4 11 backroute fixed
- 4 17 backroute fixed + timer added

- 5 01 backroute fixed
- 5 02 slight visual error fixed

[IchoTolot]

V 1.3 is out!

Last update before the format change and I fixed another backroute in 4 20.

[chrisleec728]

This pack has no custom music, so edit the standard rotation tracks to your liking to get whatever music you think fits.

How exactly do I do that in NeoLemmix (or in Superlemmini for that matter)?

[Proxima]

In NeoLemmix, you should have a text file called "music" inside the NeoLemmix folder. It contains a list of the filenames of the tracks in the standard rotation; NL will look for music files with these filenames in the "music" subfolder. If you want to change the music, you can either rename other tracks to match the old filenames, or put other tracks in your "music" folder and edit the text file to contain the filenames of the new tracks.

[chrisleec728]

Hmm, NeoLemmix doesn't appear to have a folder. I have NeoLemmix as an EXE file, the level packs I have are all NXP files and I also see INI files called "Hotkeys" and "Settings".

[IchoTolot]

Hmm, NeoLemmix doesn't appear to have a folder. I have NeoLemmix as an EXE file, the level packs I have are all NXP files and I also see INI files called "Hotkeys" and "Settings".

If NeoLemmix hasn't created a "music" folder yet, you can also create one yourself in the same folder as the EXE. Normally when starting NL the first times it should create one itself.

You can then change the orig_XX and ohno_XX tracks yourself and choose tracks of your preference.

[IchoTolot]

V 1.4 is out!

Level pack should now be independent of ceiling interactions.

Slightly altered levels:

1 14, 1 17, 1 20
2 03, 2 14, 2 15, 2 28
3 06, 3 24
4 05, 4 08, 4 13, 4 16

[IchoTolot]

V 1.5 is out!

This is the first version for the new formats version!

V 1.4 will remain in the first post as a backup download.

A known issue is that the custom skillpanel is currently not working, but this will be fixed with a future NeoLemmix player update.

[joshescue18]

I have redone some of the levels.

[IchoTolot]

V 1.6 is out!

Fixed a few backroutes thanks to josh and Flopsy

- 3 20   tons of backroutes fixed with a few little terrain alterations.

- 4 09   josh's solution is now intended (-5 builders, + 1 save requirement)

- 4 11   backroute fixed

NOTE: Fixes are only for the new format version now!

[joshescue18]

I have redone these levels again.

[IchoTolot]

I have redone these levels again.

Much better.

3 20  I would call a totally acceptable alternative solution.

4 11  is now 100% intended.

4 09  was your solution anyway.

[IchoTolot]

V 1.7 is out!

This fixes a backroute on 3 28 (Assault Course). The backroute was quite fiddly and hopefully the fix will enforce the clean intended route. 

[IchoTolot]

V 1.8 is out!

- Maso 02 has another backroute fix (- 1 exploder + 1 miner + 1 save requirement)

[IchoTolot]

V 1.9 is out!

The following levels have been backroute fixed:

- 4 07 backroute fixed with an ice blower
- 4 16 backroute fixed with some OWWs
- 4 18 backroute fixed with a slight terrain alteration
- 4 21 backroute fixed (slight terrain alteration, -1 blocker, -1 climber, +1 save requirement)

- 5 01 backroute fixed with some pick-up-skills

[IchoTolot]

V 2.0 is out!

Pack is made fit for 12.7.0! Changes:

The zip is now to be extracted in the main NL folder instead of inside the levels folder.

Visual fixes, because of the fire pit graphic change:

- 1 17
- 2 05
- 3 15

One level's OWW were a bit untidy, so I fixed that:

- 2 16

The levels were not cleansed yet as this still seems a bit buggy in terms of pack structure.

[IchoTolot]

V 2.1 is out!

Levels cleansed.

[mantha16]

Hi all

Finally joined but have been playing neolemmix for a few years now then when i run out of levels/get stuck I stop playing for a while then delete everything and start over.

I dont understand any of the technical aspects or the correct protocol for this question but 1.28 of Dove Lems is driving me absolutely bonkers I cannot see any way to get the little fellas down. any help would be appreciated.

(please delete if not allowed or move to the correct thread thank you)

[IchoTolot]

Hi all

Finally joined but have been playing neolemmix for a few years now then when i run out of levels/get stuck I stop playing for a while then delete everything and start over.

I dont understand any of the technical aspects or the correct protocol for this question but 1.28 of Dove Lems is driving me absolutely bonkers I cannot see any way to get the little fellas down. any help would be appreciated.

(please delete if not allowed or move to the correct thread thank you)

Welcome to the forum!

The question is in the correct thread and here is my hint:

Spoiler

You always have another "skill". Normally it is used when you just want to see the world burn explode. Position the horde correctly with the 4 skills given to you then try to use that final extra "skill".

The method is unconventional, but let's say if you seen it once you mostly will see it coming the times afterwards.

May I interest you in the currently in development NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (if you haven't already seen it). For example this type of level is introduced there in the skill rank as well.

[mantha16]

Welcome to the forum!

The question is in the correct thread and here is my hint:

Spoiler

You always have another "skill". Normally it is used when you just want to see the world burn explode. Position the horde correctly with the 4 skills given to you then try to use that final extra "skill".

The method is unconventional, but let's say if you seen it once you mostly will see it coming the times afterwards.

May I interest you in the currently in development NeoLemmix Introduction Pack (if you haven't already seen it). For example this type of level is introduced there in the skill rank as well.

thank you finally figured it out and rescued 17 of the little blighters.  Now on to the 600000000000000000000 other levels that frustrate me lol

Edited by namida: Your reply appeared inside the quote tag; I fixed this.

[IchoTolot]

V 2.2 is out!

Fixed a backroute on 3 27 as some of the decoration opened a hidden path.

[IchoTolot]

V 2.3 is out!

Backroute fixes:

- 4 05 (the blockers are now pick-ups)
- 4 23 (added some steel)

[IchoTolot]

V 2.4 is out!

Backroute fixes:

- 4 26 (added some steel)

[IchoTolot]

V 2.5 is out!

Backroute fixes:

- 5 01 (added some steel)

[WillLem]

I've made my way through the Plain levels, attached some replays. A few of these may be backroutes (think of that - finding a backroute to an IchoTolot level!) but then, it is the first rank so I'm guessing multiple routes are allowed.

Really enjoyed these levels, not too difficult but the occasional challenge here and there. Some nice design work too.

[IchoTolot]

Thanks for the replays.

None of these are backroutes, as those levels are very open for the most part.

think of that - finding a backroute to an IchoTolot level!

To be clear: These are no IchoTolot levels! They are just maintained by me and they were originally created by Pieuw.

[Akseli]

think of that - finding a backroute to an IchoTolot level!

To be clear: These are no IchoTolot levels! They are just maintained by me and they were originally created by Pieuw.

Created by Dodochacalo, not Pieuw.

[IchoTolot]

Created by Dodochacalo, not Pieuw.

Of course! I am dumb; my brain was in the wrong pack at the time

[Proxima]

2-15 Strato and Cumulus: Time limit is 1:30. A solution that feels intended (attached) solves in just under a minute. A plausible solution that doesn't work fails by a fraction of a second. I suggest either shortening the time to make it clearer that this approach cannot work, or allowing it to work (maybe the latter since at the moment the level feels too hard for its place?).

[IchoTolot]

V 2.6 is out!

Backroute fixes:

- 2 15 (added a steel block)

[ericderkovits]

just finished replaying dovelems(turning levels green with replays). I noticedl level 30 of maso used 1 glider(new skill).
I know since Dovelems was first in Lemmini what the differences are between that level in Lemmini and neolemmix since I know
Lemmini didn't have a glider skill. I think that was the only level in neolemmix conversion using a new skill unless I missed others.
also some levels had pickup skills which Lemmini didn't have either.
onto Pimolemms

[kaywhyn]

Perfect. Now that you've moved your post to the right place, I'm more than happy to address your point of why there's a glider on Maso 30.

Spoiler

When you let lemmings go to the edge of the platform at the top, you'll see that the small platform underneath is off by a pixel, and so they don't land on it. However, in the Lemmini version, there's a miner trick that, when assigned to a lemming at the very last possible moment before falling off, it allows the lemming to land onto that platform that's off by a pixel. That's because of the way the miner works in Lemmini, where the miner falls slightly ahead of its position. Since that trick doesn't work in NL, that's why a glider is provided to allow a lemming to land onto the platform.

For the Lemmini miner trick demonstration, here's the Youtube replay video by the author of the pack itself, Dodo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf6pO7PY8KQ&list=PL081C2F4D14A12593&index=121&t=0s. Skip to :20 in the video.

[Proxima]

[I was just about to post about the miner glitch, but kaywhyn got in ahead of me.]

Since I'm posting here, I may as well continue the above conversation about Coward 15. I was going to reply again after solving the level so that I could argue from a position of strength, but that hasn't happened yet. The current version of the level is a ridiculous out-of-place difficulty spike, harder even than anything in rank 3, and I absolutely don't believe Dodochacalo would have wanted that. Yes, I know you are trying to enforce the solution from his video, but I don't think he was strict about that being the only solution -- nearly all levels in the first two ranks have a variety of solutions, as is appropriate for the easier ranks.

Furthermore, the level is unforgiving because of an extremely tight timer, a type of level you yourself have said you don't like.

Please be reasonable about this level. Having such a nasty difficulty spike so early really hurts the pack, which is a huge shame when it's otherwise such an excellent pack to recommend to new players.

[ericderkovits]

thx kaywhyn I see that in the Youtube video. does that work in Superlemmini or is there no dovelemms for Superlemmini. I don't see any listed here in the forum. and your right the miner trick doesnt work in neolemmix. I just tried it. also in the replay I see the glider used right before that spot.

[kaywhyn]

Dovelems is not available for Superlemmini. Are you looking for the pack itself for Lemmini? I got it from Dodo's Youtube channel.

[ericderkovits]

I tried to get it from the his youtube channel. but I cant locate the file. I know it's for Lemmini but I could maybe convert it to Superlemmini as I'm very good at Superlemmini's structure.

[kaywhyn]

Click on Dodo's Youtube username, then click "about." Link is in the description. It's a download from Dropbox. However, you can simply change the 0 at the end to a 1 and it will automatically download the pack. Very useful for those who don't have a Dropbox account.

@Proxima I just solved Coward 15. My solution has 10 seconds left on the timer. Yes, I absolutely agree with you that it's a huge difficulty spike for the halfway point of just the second rank! Surely that shouldn't be the case for a beginner-friendly pack.

[IchoTolot]

V 2.7 is out!

Fixes:

- 2 15 (added a water pit)


I won't touch the ranking system as I just maintain a conversion. I also want to enforce the intended solution.

But I see the problem and there is indeed something I can do while still keep the intended solution and the ranking structure: Reduce entropy.

The ammount of possibilities is what makes the level tricky. The now added water pit should lock down 2 key skills in place which would result in a significant drop in difficulty.

[ericderkovits]

that's funny my replay shows 26 seconds remaining. of course as I'm lousy at solving so this isnt the replay of mine.

this is the replay I got though.


is this replay the intended solution?

also I think you meant 2.7 is out as when I downloaded it shows 2.7 but here you said 2.6 which was posted earlier with a steel block

[IchoTolot]

This solution id indeed intended.

And yes I meant 2.7 -- fixed that.

[kaywhyn]

Yes, Coward 15 is much easier now. Also, I absolutely agree with Icho's assessment that the levels should stay in the ranking and in the exact same order as they were in Lemmini.

[ericderkovits]

RE: Icholotot
I noticed your Devilish 25 neolemmix level (The Way to go up) is quite a bit different than lemmini's version of the same level. I have converted the Lemmini version to Superlemmini(still in process of getting bugs out from Superlemmini's version as the conversion is not 100%)
So Im up to Devilish 25 now. Also I used the neolemmix editor to get the Lemmini version(now in Superlemmini) to get it to neolemmix. see Attachment. I don't know why the neolemmix one was so different but if you wish(don't have to) you can replace your's with the actual one Dodochacolo had. also I attached a replay for this actual one that Dodochacolo had on his Youtube channel.

[kaywhyn]

Huh, that is interesting. Thanks for pointing this out, eric. I just took a look at the current NL version of Devilish 25, and another curious thing I found: I was able to backroute and solve the level without picking up either blocker pickup. It almost fails, but it does work.

Spoiler

Bash with the second lemming, then build to stop. Build twice with the lead lemming to land on the pillar, then, starting at the last precise moment before he falls off, build the rest of the path, making sure to stretch out each builder as much as possible. When that's done, bash. 100% saved too.

This is an easy fix, though: just shift the final huge wall to the right. Alternatively, make only two builders available at the start and the remaining 9 builders pickups.

[ericderkovits]

Yes I did your version (also I have it attached) also done in just under the 3min that was allowed in lemmini's time.

Have you downloaded the actual one and replay that was from Lemmini(Superlemmini)?
and Can you see the Difference in the level?

[kaywhyn]

Mine is almost exactly the one you posted, except I let the worker lemming fall onto the golden pillar and built the rest of the path instead of one very long bridge from the blue bubble. Nevertheless, both work and avoid the pickup skills completely, so they're backroutes. Yes, I looked at the Lemmini version and so I know the differences in the level layout, and for a while I couldn't remember the solution, but I was able to solve it.

[IchoTolot]

V 2.8 is out!

Fixes:

- 3 25 (some terrain changes)

Let me clarify things here:

In my conversion I used the version of 3 25 as it originally was.
Probably because the backroute where you just use a blocker at the start is unfixable in Lemmini/SuperLemmini made Dodochacalo change the level in a later version. Now we've got pick-up skills to fix this backroute and I decided to use the original layout of the level.

[ericderkovits]

Ok here is the replay I have for v2.8

Is this now intended?

[IchoTolot]

Yes, this is intended!

[ericderkovits]

So the version you have now(early one) can NOT be used in Lemmini/Superlemmini because of the backroute(using a blocker), but the one he has now can be used in Superlemmini. But his original one(early one) can be used in neolemmix because neolemmix has pickup skills so the backroute can be fixed. I just want to make sure I understand since I'm converting his now(later one) of Devilish 25 to Superlemmini.

[IchoTolot]

So the version you have now(early one) can NOT be used in Lemmini/Superlemmini because of the backroute(using a blocker), but the one he has now can be used in Superlemmini. But his original one(early one) can be used in neolemmix because neolemmix has pickup skills so the backroute can be fixed. I just want to make sure I understand since I'm converting his now(later one) of Devilish 25 to Superlemmini.

Correct.

[ericderkovits]

I see Icho your youtube video on neolemmix's dovelems is up to devilish 20. almost to 25 then I will see your replay on it. good thing you changed it on kaywhns solution which I managed to do also with a minor variation. I figure you don't do a commentary ones because it's dodochacalo's but it's still nice to see the replays. also the music in your dovelems is better than just the amiga ones which are there because you didn't include a custom music pack for it like you did with Pimolems

[ericderkovits]

also i have franlems and dodo's other ones in neolemmix. although many levels have glitches. especially in dodos other packs(catchapack and dodopack).
There's a level called secret labratory. and the glitch only works in Lemmini, not sure about Superlemmini. Definitely not in neolemmix. so I reacreated the solution which looks similar to the glitch one without the glitch.

[ericderkovits]

also Lemmin's version of dovelemms I converted to Superlemmini

[ericderkovits]

finally posted devilish 25 on youtube. yep that's the solution

[uberwolfie]

Hi everyone!
First time posting on the forums! I started playing Lemmings again recently, made it all the way through Redux (which was great!) and now all the way through DoveLems. I'm not sure whether my replays are of interest, but there are several levels which, if not all backroutes, I was at least disappointed to have solved in a way that didn't let me appreciate the central insight of the puzzle. I've written a rather long document reviewing each level and outlining these alternate solutions, but I don't know if there is really the interest in reading that? It's quite long but I can share if anyone (especially Ichotolot) would find useful. I was sorry to see the DoveLems thread die on the other forum, and maybe that's a better place for it? (these smileys are so cute)
In particular though I wanted to draw your attention here to my solution for Maso 27 ("The Spring"). Given that this was clearly supposed to be some kind of zenith of Maso and thus the whole series, the trivial solution I found which I haven't seen anyone here or on YouTube mention was especially disappointing to me. Forgive me if this is old news though.

If you don't want to dig through the replays:

Spoiler

If you send one lemming out to dig on each of the one way platforms where the blockers are supposed to go in the intended solution, you can then bash and because of the OWW the lemming will turn around, leaving a high enough barrier and obviating the need for blockers or the complicated machinery of their release.

[ericderkovits]

yes, Your solution for Maso 27 The Spring is definitely a backroute. I wonder if Icho can fix this so this solution can be stopped.

Also I would like uberwolfie's entire replays to be checked for other backroutes that he says are disappointing.

As I would like to see backroutes fixed too.

Now I might have to go my Superlemmini conversion of Dovelems and start working on backroutes from the neolemmix version.

[kaywhyn]

eric, there's no need to post replays like that when uberwolfie has already posted the replay for Maso 27. Icho sees everything, and uber has posted all of the pack's replays, so he will get it from his post.

[IchoTolot]

Thanks for the replays and welcome to the forums uberwolfie!

I will definitly dig through those and fix any backroutes I come across - especially the "The Spring" one sounds nasty. I bet it can be easily fixed though through something like making the diggers available later through pick-ups right after the staircase or some OWW-up arrows. Will see to it tomorrow probably as it's getting late here.

You can also post your document here if you like. I won't promise reading every sentence if it's extremely long, but having additional insight to your thought process, likes and dislikes can be very helpful for people. I have to point out though that I probably won't do any drastic changes to levels here because of personal dislikes - that are not related to pure unfairness in a level of course - as this is still a conversion of Dodochacalo's pack and his levels.
From the backroute perspective though the replays should be enough for that.

yes, Your solution for Maso 27 The Spring is definitely a backroute. I wonder if Icho can fix this so this solution can be stopped.

Anyway, Icho here is uberwolfie's replay for Maso 27 The Spring. Also Icho maybe you should check his entire replays for other backroutes that he says are disappointing.

As I would like to see backroutes fixed too.

Now I might have to go my Superlemmini conversion of Dovelems and start working on backroutes from the neolemmix version.

If you noticed anything from my pack topics so far is that I get my hands on all replays posted here, search them all for backroutes and fix them accordingly when I get to it.
They can all be fixed! - although I am not so sure on SuperLemmini as sometimes pick-ups are kind of required.
So there is no need to repost this replay as it's alredy included in the collection - again I go through all of them.

[uberwolfie]

To save you going through all of them, here are the levels which I solved with any solution that doesn't seem intended by Dodo or Icho:

Spoiler

1 8 (hard to say what's intended this early)
1 20 (very slight)
1 24 (I just don't understand the circuitousness of Dodo's demonstrated solution)
1 27
1 29 (slight)

2 3
2 9 (I just wonder whether the added steel block makes the solution very slightly easier?)
2 15 (an equivalent solution to intended?)
2 19
2 26 (much discussed already)

3 3
3 5 (I think equivalent, but seems messier)
3 10
3 14 (same (backroute?) solution works on both versions)
3 20
3 21
3 25
3 27 (just wanted to point out that, if you combine my solution with the intended one, you can do this with only 11 builders!)

4 2
4 8
4 9 (this seems to be Icho's solution, but it does seem a bit less interesting to me than the original?)
4 10
4 11
4 12
4 13 (not using the digger in the centre of the level seems impossible with Dodo's original layout?)
4 14 (equivalent I think)
4 16
4 17
4 20
4 21 (again I think equivalent)
4 27 (as pointed out in previous post)
4 29

[uberwolfie]

Thanks! Great to be here this seems like such a nice community, and we are all bound together by the greatness of Lemmings of course!

Yes, Icho, I have noticed your extreme dedication to perfecting levels' solutions, it's most admirable. I'll edit my (quite long) document a bit and then share it here. Of course my personal feelings should not affect anything, but it was definitely the many solutions I found which left me slightly confused that contributed to a certain disappointment overall with DoveLems - but the pack is still a great achievement, as I'm sure we all agree.

[kaywhyn]

This is definitely the right place to be if you love the game and are wanting more to play via the many custom level packs available here. Just search the Neolemmix, levels for other engines, and Superlemmini boards for them. There's so many packs available that it'll definitely take a really long time to get through them all. It's a good thing in that the amount of content available is never in shortage, although what is is the amount of easier levels. You're certainly more than welcome to take on the hard level packs if you love a challenge, but if it's been a while since you played the game, it helps to brush up on the easier packs first before doing so. Of course, you're under no obligation to play the hard packs, but they are available to play if you want to. Although, seeing how you already managed to finish Redux and a really good pack in Dovelems, which I feel is the first custom pack most people play (it certainly was the first one I played once I found out about the forums and transitioned from playing custom packs on Dos), you're probably well on your way towards making good progress to playing the harder stuff.

It's also a very friendly community as you have seen who are more than happy to help you out with anything if you ask and can't figure something out. Maybe you can even get into level designing, although it's certainly fine if you're just here to play level packs as well as to make banter with the community. At least that's what I'm doing. I likely will not get into making level packs, but lately I have been inspired to give level making a try by some levels I've played in the pack I'm currently trying to complete. I've stated over and over that I'm no good when it comes to level designing, but the thing is I won't really know that I'm not unless I try.

[uberwolfie]

For what it's worth, attached are my complete thoughts on DoveLems.

Thanks so much for the kind words kaywhyn! Assuming I keep up my current rate of playing the game (which will almost certainly change once I have actual work to do again ) I can see myself having the occasional "banter" about various levels. And I could start level designing, I tend to think very visually, so I'm sure it's only a matter of time before ideas start to occur to me for my own levels - but before that happens I definitely look forward to exploring all the many (many) levels on offer here. It is slightly intimidating to see even the hardest DoveLems levels described as "Medium", but I suppose it didn't take me ALL that long to solve most of them...it certainly is a great pack for a smooth transition to the harder tricks that the original games didn't touch.

[kaywhyn]

For what it's worth, attached are my complete thoughts on DoveLems.

Thanks so much for the kind words kaywhyn! Assuming I keep up my current rate of playing the game (which will almost certainly change once I have actual work to do again ) I can see myself having the occasional "banter" about various levels. And I could start level designing, I tend to think very visually, so I'm sure it's only a matter of time before ideas start to occur to me for my own levels - but before that happens I definitely look forward to exploring all the many (many) levels on offer here. It is slightly intimidating to see even the hardest DoveLems levels described as "Medium", but I suppose it didn't take me ALL that long to solve most of them...it certainly is a great pack for a smooth transition to the harder tricks that the original games didn't touch.

You're welcome. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the level pack in the PDF file. I haven't read all your thoughts on every level of Dovelems, but there are a few points of interest in your intro paragraph. Some remarks:

Pimolems was the second custom pack I played after I finished Dovelems. So far, I have completed both of these on Lemmini. I have yet to take on the NL versions of them. Pimolems was a pack where I gave up in frustration and didn't come back to play the pack again for about 2-3 years. The level that stopped me dead in my tracks was Hurricane 3. When I did come back, I was able to get past it and proceed to finish the rest of the pack. It's definitely harder than Dovelems. As you have seen, Dovelems tends to have a very gentle difficulty curve and it stays fairly simple throughout, whereas for Pimolems, I say the difficulty really picks up about halfway through the second rank, but it definitely gets hard starting with the third rank and stays difficult all the way through the end of the Hurricane rank. Needless to say, Dovelems tends to stay closer and truer to the original Lemmings in terms of ranks and levels (30 levels in each of the 4 main ranks) and difficulty, whereas Pimolems is only slightly different in terms of structure (20 levels each in 7 ranks, except for the Special which has 5 levels in the NL version, two of which are Reunion levels, but only 3 in the Lemmini version) but is definitely more difficult.

Reunion was the third custom pack I played and is, to date, the largest custom pack I have completed (that will soon change because I am nearly done with Icho's other main pack, United). I too have only completed it on Lemmini. At the time when I played through the pack, I was working a job, which was why it took me 3 months to finish the pack. The level that had me stuck the longest was Nightmare 16. Regarding the pack, it has a really great difficulty curve, but it certainly gets harder much faster than the original game. In particular, the last few levels in the first rank are all difficult. However, I'm quite certain you'll be able to finish it. If you ever get terribly stuck, you can always ask for hints and send a replay for Icho to see, and he'll be glad to tell you whether or not if you're on the right track towards a solution.

Geoflems is a pack I certainly would like to play at some point. From what I read, it's on the much easier side, which I can certainly use after having played mostly United for the last several months, and the levels in there are quite brutal (hard-extreme). Though it's almost been a year since I first played the pack, and I have had so many struggles, I am getting very near the end (only 6 levels left in the Bonus rank, then just 4 Genocide levels I need to go back and resolve the new versions of and then I'll finally be done). Needless to say, after you finish Reunion and if you're definitely feeling up to it, feel free to take on Icho's other pack United, but be warned it's probably the most difficult pack there is currently available. It's definitely not for the faint of heart or the easily frustrated. Or feel free to stay to other easier packs. Up to you, of course. 

[uberwolfie]

No problem! Had so many thoughts that I felt I had to record them.
PimoLems does seem more "condensed" in difficulty than DoveLems, certainly, and definitely harder. Can't say for certain, but I'm halfway through, and I think that overall I will find it a stronger pack than DoveLems.
Good to hear that Reunion is approachable. United definitely seems like it's the work of a madman! (in the best possible sense naturally )
GeoffLems I saw namida speak favourably about - it's pretty amicable so far!

[kaywhyn]

If you're looking for other packs to play, other packs that I have played that I can also recommend are Reverse Lemmings, Sublems, Mobilems, and Lemmings Plus 1. The first two are currently available for Superlemmini and NL, while Mobilems is currently available for Lemmini and NL and is currently being converted to Superlemmini by eric. Lemmings Plus 1 is available for Dos and NL. All of these packs are on the easier side. The first one, as the name says, is simply the original Lemmings with a twist: The entrances and exits switch places and the skillsets adjusted accordingly. Given how you already finished Redux which has most of the levels from the original game, this should be very enjoyable for you. The last one is comparable to the original Lemmings in that there's 4 ranks with 30 levels each and very similar difficulty.

If you're willing to look into Superlemmini, I can also recommend eric's conversion packs of the official games (Lemmings, ONML, Genesis, Sega, etc) and Lemmini packs. Also, I haven't played them, but I would love to eventually get to namida's other Plus and Omega packs, so I can suggest you take a look at them too, especially if you want content a little on the easier side.

In any case, enjoy your time here on the forums! It's always wonderful to see more new members registering and joining.

[uberwolfie]

Cheers for that, great information!
I might look into SuperLemmini, it seems like it has it's own thing going, but tbh NeoLemmix just seems so miraculous to me (compared to the original games) that it's hard to look past it right now.

[kaywhyn]

Cheers for that, great information!
I might look into SuperLemmini, it seems like it has it's own thing going, but tbh NeoLemmix just seems so miraculous to me (compared to the original games) that it's hard to look past it right now.

That's completely understandable. Not a problem with the multitude of engines available, as there's at least something for everyone.

[IchoTolot]

Cheers for that, great information!
I might look into SuperLemmini, it seems like it has it's own thing going, but tbh NeoLemmix just seems so miraculous to me (compared to the original games) that it's hard to look past it right now.

I feel like I should mention the new NeoLemmix Introduction Pack here as well: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4332.0

It's still in development (even if somewhat close to the first V1.0), but I could still use some feedback there. It will 100% teach you things I you didn't know were possible before!

I aimed it at people learning the basics as well as people who want to know more about the most common and even some advanced tricks.

The levels in there are partly trivial for teaching purposes, but still should offer some challenge later as you then need to see where and how you need to apply your new knowledge. The later training ranks should definitly pack at least a bit of punch.

[uberwolfie]

Thanks Icho! I played through the first 3 ranks of the intro pack, I like it! Pretty useful given that I'd be completely in the dark about a lot of neolemmix features otherwise.  I also found the manual, which was very helpful, but it's odd that it doesn't come with the program itself? And doesn't seem to be anywhere obvious on the website? In any case, I'll definitely try and complete the pack, and let you know if there's anything I notice

The early levels may be trivial (and they certainly don't stay that way!) but I think I underestimated how much the classic mechanics of Lemmings 1 got seared into my brain as a young child - it was surprising how difficult it was to visualize the effect of the unfamiliar skills, and notice their use in solving specific problems.

[IchoTolot]

V 2.9 is out!

Backroute fixes thanks to uberwolfie's replays:

- 2 03 (added a OWW)

- 3 03, 3 14 (added steel)
- 3 10 (the blocker is now a pick-up skill)
- 3 21 (added steel)

- 4 10 (moved a trap, added steel)
- 4 11 (added a OWW)
- 4 12 (added a OWW)
- 4 13 (added steel)
- 4 16 (added steel)
- 4 17 (added a trap)
- 4 20 (added traps)
- 4 27 (the diggers are now a pick-up skill)
- 4 29 (added steel)

Some comments to the feedback/solutions:

Spoiler

1 8:

Well here you just make your life more difficult as it needs to be. So no fix needed here as it's also a pretty open ended level.

1 20, 1 24, 1 27, 1 29:

Nothing too unusual here.

2 09:

It's still totally acceptable as you still go through the intended route.

2 15:

I see you were playing on an older version. Your solution now does not work anymore.

2 19:

This is more like a "as long as you reach the exit it's acceptable" level. So your solution is totally fine.

2 26:

The route Dodo intended here is very difficult to 100% enforce. Still these solutions you had here at least use an alteration of the trick or another clever one. So I won't fix the level to death and rather keep these alternative solutions here as they are still clever and not just "cheats".

3 05:

I was actually fixing this level a bit before by removing some builders, but people liked the more open version more with many different approaches.

3 20:

Your solution is still very clever and uses all skills, I will accept it. It's also not totally different from the intended one. This level has been fixed so much I really don't want to completely overfix it and seeing it at least forcing clever solutions with using all skills is close enough for me.

3 25:

Your older version is showing again. This has already been fixed.

3 27:

If you can accomplish that, that's great! It doesn't break the level and doesn't use a totally different way.

4 02:

You actually make the level much harder for you here by not going the completely intended route. I'll let that pass.

4 08:

As long as you do the "Z" everything is fine.

4 09:

Yes, Dodo's solution is cooler than this! Buuut, it's totally broken in any way possible relying on this many builders. It's just not really enforcable and I always saw something like the current solution from people (if not 10 times lamer). So I rather enforce this less cool, but still somewhat clever solution.

4 13:

I don't see the difference here to Dodo's version and I did not change the middle gap as I've read in your document. I think this comes more down to different builder physics in Lemmini compared to NeoLemmix. This fix should do the trick though.

4 21:

Yeah, this is still fine.

I haven't gone through your whole document yet, but will read through it at some point.

[ericderkovits]

Due to the new release 2.9, 3 of my replays broke,so had to resolve those 3.

1, Devilish 10 The Eighth Wonder of the World broke to due added blocker pickup skill.
2. Devilish 21 Lempipe broke due to added steel
3. Maso 27 The Spring broke due to added digger pickup skills.

Thanks Icho for updating as We want packs to be backroute fixed even it's Dodochacalos' pack. As long as the intended solution is enforced and not changed.

[uberwolfie]

Great stuff! I look forward to making sure my solutions are up to date!

Although my document was a nice catharsis for me, mainly I wanted to see if anyone had found these backroutes before. Also the tone at times is maybe a little strong...but I'm sure for fans of Dodochacalo reviews and opinions on his levels might still be interesting to read.

[ericderkovits]

Now Icho that you posted on Youtube Dovelems maso 27 The Spring I see you still have the version without the pickup skills. I thought you would post the version with the pickup skills since you changed
it before this video.

[IchoTolot]

Now Icho that you posted on Youtube Dovelems maso 27 The Spring I see you still have the version without the pickup skills. I thought you would post the version with the pickup skills since you changed
it before this video.

The videos are recorded a while before they are sheduled to air. I am not recording them again if the intended solution is still the same and even more so if the only change is that a pick-up skill has been added.

[Shmoley]

Hey people, I decided to give Dovelems a shot recently after I got a bit stuck on Lemmings Plus 1. I'm around the middle of the Devilish rank. Very good pack so far! I'm really liking it. I'll get replays after
I beat the pack.

[kaywhyn]

Wow, way to go! Good choice of a pack to tackle here, Shmolem. Pretty easy and gentle for the most part, and even Devilish and Maso aren't too difficult IIRC. Probably less difficult than the last two ranks of Sublems. It's been much longer since the time I played Dovelems than Sublems, and I first played the pack through Lemmini, so I don't remember most of the levels too well. Anyway, best of luck on your quest to conquer the pack. I know you can do it just the same!

[Shmoley]

I was expecting this pack to ramp up to be pretty hard like Sublems did for me but so far it hasn't been too bad. There was one level I struggled with a little bit which was Devilish 4 but other then that it's been fine. I'm not sure what's with me and Lemmings Plus but I take a break, Go back to it, beat some levels, get stuck, take a break, go back to it, beat some levels, get stuck, and on and on. It really is weird

[kaywhyn]

Your strategy of leaving a pack for a time when it starts getting too hard for you and playing another pack in the meantime is perfectly viable. I do this as well, and I did that a lot when I was playing through United. Eventually, when I felt ready, I came back to United and was able to get through the roadblocks somewhat more easily. I know that you'll eventually beat all of Lemmings Plus 1 as well when you do come back to it. It's a great first pack by namida from what I remember. Starts off pretty easy and gets difficult near the end. Dovelems doesn't ramp up as much throughout the entire pack, so the difficulty is fairly low and flat.

[ericderkovits]

Yes, Dovelems is a good choice, as it's an easier pack. Of course Icho had to fix these levels recently as Uberwolfie had some backroutes. But even then it's pretty easy of a pack, easier to me than sublems. And yes Devilish four is kinda hard, not because of the solution but because of the tight time limit. I think I remember it being like 4 seconds left in my Superlemmini conversion of this
level that gave me fits, because of the time limit. It took me probably more tries than any other level I think, as the timing of the few skills had to be worked out so the level can be finished on time.

[IchoTolot]

Nice to hear you are enjoying the conversion, Shmolem!

It's totally fine if you are stuck at one point that you try your luck at another. I do that as well.

[Shmoley]

I'm at the very end of Devilish now, just beat Devilish 25. (Which I'm pretty much certain I backrouted)

[ericderkovits]

Not again. This level had to be fixed by Icho, since Kaywhyn solved it initially without even using the blockers. you may want to post your replay for devilish 25 for Icho, to see if it's a backroute that he may have to fix again. Hopefully your using the most current version of Dovelems

[kaywhyn]

Like eric mentioned, are you certain you have the latest version of the pack, Shmolem? I just tried Devilish 25 again, and I cannot backroute it like I previously did before, and I'm very well-known by Icho for backrouting his levels. So, if you think you were able to backroute the level, it probably means you have an outdated version of the pack. As a matter of fact, some time ago, I gave a suggestion that the NL main menu should display what version of the pack players are playing, because sometimes it's the case where you might have downloaded a level pack from a really long time ago, and then sometime down the line, the pack author releases a new update of the pack, but sometimes you might not had downloaded the most recent version at the time. namida did see my suggestion on the suggestions board, and he said that it's on his "to-do list." I think it would be quite helpful so that you can easily check whether you have the most recent version of the pack or not. Some packs already display the pack version in the scroller at the bottom, though, so those aren't a problem. It's the ones that don't that can be problematic in knowing whether you're playing the most up-to-date version.

Anyway, you can still send the replay over and then I can quickly verify. Knowing you, you'll probably do it after you finish the rank, which is perfectly fine, as that's generally what I do as well.   

[Shmoley]

Sorry for the late response but here it is. I'm not sure how to check the version of the pack but I used all of the skills in the replay so it may not be a backroute.

[kaywhyn]

Hmm, not exactly intended, but perhaps an acceptable variant. The intended way uses a different creative trick not seen in many custom levels. Looks like the trick I showed you on Hellish 19 of Sublems came in handy here, even though it's not necessary to solve either level. Then again, the easiest fix I can think of here to block off your solution is to simply extend the OWW to the entire wall, including the top. Let's see if Icho agrees.

As for checking the version, Dovelems is one of the few packs that doesn't display the version of the pack anywhere in the main menu, including the scroller at the bottom in the main menu, so instead you'll have to check the dates of the affected levels and match it up to the date that the updated version was released in this topic. However, I can tell you that from watching the replay that you have the up-to-date version of Devilish 25. I'm just not sure if you have the most recent version of the pack, v2.9, which is dated September 6 this year. There were a lot of levels that got updated with this one, so you'll have to check if any of the levels affected are dated September 6 in your NL directory. If you find any, then you have the most recent version of the pack. If not, you can download the latest version in the OP.

[ericderkovits]

oh, wow Yeah let's see if Icho updates Dovelems again for this Devilish 25 to prevent this solution. I would agree with Kaywhyns solution to fix the level.

[IchoTolot]

V 3.0 is out!

Fixes:

- 3 25 (extended the OWW)

Yes, that fix is 100% the easiest. Also, thanks for the replay Shmolem!

[kaywhyn]

(extended the OWW)

Yes, that fix is 100% is easiest.

Wow, nice to see my suggestion of a fix was actually used I haven't even gotten into level designing yet and already I'm starting to think like a level designer when it comes to backroute fixing I feel a level collab coming one of these days. After I have made some decent levels myself first, of course

Good luck in the rest of your quest to beat Dovelems, Shmolem. You can do this!

[Swerdis]

Hello,

after having completed the Devilish rank today, I possibly found some backroutes/alternative solutions for some levels - which could be fixed or not.

These are: Devilish 5 (Brick-a-Brack), Devilish 14 (Chernobyl Survivors), Devilish 18 (It's an Evil Symphony!), Devilish 20 (Stratum), Devilish 21 (Lem Pipe), Devilish 24 (Staircase to the Bottom), Devilish 26 (The Triangular Prison which remains empty all the time), Devilish 28 (Assault Course) and, finally, Devilish 30 (Make the Big 8).

All my solutions can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/user/Vidusaka 

[ericderkovits]

Haven't watched any of Swerdis's youtube solutions but if there needs to be fixes, I'm sure Icho will be on it.

[IchoTolot]

Hello,

after having completed the Devilish rank today, I possibly found some backroutes/alternative solutions for some levels - which could be fixed or not.

These are: Devilish 5 (Brick-a-Brack), Devilish 14 (Chernobyl Survivors), Devilish 18 (It's an Evil Symphony!), Devilish 20 (Stratum), Devilish 21 (Lem Pipe), Devilish 24 (Staircase to the Bottom), Devilish 26 (The Triangular Prison which remains empty all the time), Devilish 28 (Assault Course) and, finally, Devilish 30 (Make the Big 8).

All my solutions can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/user/Vidusaka 

I was aware of your videos and I appreciate the feedback.     Icho sees many things.

I just wanted to wait until you have uploaded the complete pack, then I plan to watch them all and take notes on what to be fixed.

Quite a few of the levels you listed are problem childs and as I took a look 3 14, 3 18, 3 20, 3 21, 3 26 and 3 30 definitly need fixes, but again I will wait until you posted your complete solution collection and then prepare the appropriate fix.

[Shmoley]

Devilish 27 has stumped me and I've taken a break for a while. It seems like you need 13 builders to complete it but you only get 12.

Spoiler

I tried going through the ceiling so both of the lemming groups could go down the same path but I can't get up there without using too many builder because of everything hanging down from the ceiling causing your builders to hit their heads. So I have no clue how to reduce the amount of builders I need to use. 

[kaywhyn]

Hey Shmolem, not a problem at all. If you're stuck on a level in a particular pack, then getting away from it and playing other packs in the meantime can definitely do wonders. Just remember that you can always ask Icho or any of us who has completed Dovelems for a hint if you need one.

As for Devilish 27, I took a look at the level, and yes I remember this one being a difficult one when I first played the pack on Lemmini way back in 2013 or around there. Obviously it's a remake of "They just keep on coming/One way or another" from the original Lemmings, and I think the solution is pretty awesome here. I couldn't remember the solution for a couple of minutes, but I did play it and I was able to solve it again after having not played the pack for a really long time. Regarding your approach, if you were successful in pulling off that route, it will have to be patched out. However,

Spoiler

builders "hitting their heads" can probably be used to your advantage here, as annoying as it usually is depending on the level. As a matter of fact, it uses a very similar trick in a level that you might had solved not too long ago before this level.

[Shmoley]

SOOOOOOOO..... I think I may have completely broke this level, OR, this is the actually solution. I used every skill so it may be intended but it's so weird it doesn't feel intended. But with my luck it's gonna be another Sandopolis Act 2 thing where I thought so hard that it was a backroute when it wasn't. I really can't stop thinking about the whole Sandopolis Act 2 thing huh?

[kaywhyn]

That is 100% NOT intended. Far from it. For one thing, it avoids the central trick completely. For another, you SHOULDN'T be able to dig through steel like that, as steel is impossible to destroy in NL. Then again, the moss is definitely to blame here, because it goes through the entire steel block from top to bottom and thus allowed you to dig there.

[Shmoley]

Yeahhhh... that's kinda what I thought. I was just bored trying to solve the level then I noticed the digger would let me go through that so I'm like.. HOLD UP! I didn't think it was intended but I did it anyway I think I'll finish Devilish and go back and try to do the intended way.

[IchoTolot]

Yeah, that needs a fix!

I will prepare a big patch anyway when Swerdis has uploaded the rest of the pack on YT and your backroute will be addressed there as well.

[ericderkovits]

Yeah, that's definitely shouldn't be allowed digging thru steel. yes the moss is to blame. I tried digging in my Superlemmini Dovelems for this level, It won't even dig anywhere on steel even with a little bit of moss.

So your solution couldn't even work in my Superlemmini Devilish 27

[kaywhyn]

I checked WillLem's Amiga version of They Just Keep on Coming/One Way or Another, and it suffers from the exact same problem of being able to dig through the moss on the steel. I guess it's confirmation that anytime there's destructible terrain on steel then you can still go through it.

Since you're close to finishing the pack as well, Shmolem, perhaps Icho can wait for Swerdis' and your replays before a pack update. In the meantime, don't worry about having to resolve Devilish 27, although you're still more than welcome to go back and see if you can find the intended solution if you want.

Keep up the great work!

[Swerdis]

Yeah, I'm through it. So I guess Icho can patch all the backroutes right now. Good pack. Maso was in large parts easier than Devilish. Hardest levels for me: "Pletorah's Temple" and "Make the Big 8", followed by "The Way to Go Up". "A Z That Stands For Zemmings" was also difficult, but for the execution, not for the idea.

[kaywhyn]

Yeah, I'm through it. So I guess Icho can patch all the backroutes right now. Good pack. Maso was in large parts easier than Devilish. Hardest levels for me: "Pletorah's Temple" and "Make the Big 8", followed by "The Way to Go Up". "A Z That Stands For Zemmings" was also difficult, but for the execution, not for the idea.

Congrats Swerdis! I can attest to all those levels you mentioned that you found difficult, as I remember them being difficult as well when I played through the pack years ago. The only level that you mentioned that I couldn't remember was Make the Big 8. I took a quick look at the level and I somewhat remember it being challenging. At the same time, I have only played Dovelems on Lemmini, and if I'm not mistaken, only Devilish 25, "The way to go up," is different in terms of level layout. Everything else should pretty much be the same or mostly the same in terms of layout. Other levels they had to be modified from their Lemmini versions in order to work in NL due to differences in mechanics in the engines, such as those two levels with terrain in the steel (actually, I'm wrong here, there's only one Dovelems level with the destructible steel in Lemmini, the other one I'm thinking of is a level from Pimolems. My age is definitely showing ) . They're much harder in Lemmini, because it's a blind "guess the path through the steel," i.e, some of the steel was fake so that they could be destroyed by the digging skills. Supposedly, according to the level pack author there are clues to help you figure the path to take, but what those are I don't know. I've solved both those levels in the Lemmini version, I just don't know the clues that help you know where to dig in the steel. In any case, all the fake steel in those two levels was replaced with terrain in the NL version, and hence those two are no longer blind "guess the path through the steel." Plus, if you don't even want to bother guessing which path to take, simply take a look at the NL version so that you know where to dig in the Lemmini version or just look up a replay.

Similarly, the final level, Maso 30, relied on a miner quirk that works only in Lemmini (this is also wrong, as it was just pointed out to me that the miner quirk on this level also works on Superlemmini, and so it's not exclusive to Lemmini. Nice to know. I also tried it just now and indeed it does work. Until then, I had never encountered the behavior in Superlemmini, hence why I was unaware of the miner quirk also working in SL. In short, works on Lemmini and Superlemmini, but not NL), but that quirk is absent in NL, and hence that's why there's a glider in the NL version instead. It's pretty much the closest you can get to the original solution in this way, and hence why some levels require a reworking when converting between engines. I'm sure there are other levels in the pack that had to be tweaked in some way in order to work in NL, but it's been a very long time since I played the pack, so a lot of the levels by title will escape me until I take a look at them.

[IchoTolot]

Thanks for the videos Swerdis!

Will look through them over the next days and then prepare a patch to fix the backroutes you found.

[IchoTolot]

V 3.1 is out!

Backroute fixes:

- 3 14 (-1 climber)
- 3 18 (5 climbers are now a pick-up skill)
- 3 20 (1 miner and 1 builder are now a pick-up skill)
- 3 21 (5 builders are now a pick-up skill)
- 3 25 (1 of the pick-up skills has been moved)
- 3 26 (1 builder is now a pick-up skill, added a OWW)
- 3 27 (Fixed up the hole in the steel)
- 3 30 (added another icicle trap and an ice blower)

- 4 05 (1 miner is now a pick-up skill)
- 4 10 (added steel)
- 4 16 (removed some terrain+steel, added some steel)
- 4 23 (made a wall thinner and moved some terrain)
- 4 26 (2 builders are now a pick-up skills)

- 5 02 (added fire)
- 5 03 (some terrain changes, added steel)
- 5 05 (some terrain changes)

[ericderkovits]

ok with this newest update 3 of the replays I have broke.


The 3 that broke were
1) Devilish 14 Chernobyl Survivors(due to -1 climbers, had to solve myself, but still similiar solution.)
2) Maso 23 The Motor show(due to thinning of wall and movement of terrain-just had to alter previous replay some-still same solution)
3) Bonus 5 Lemmings' Ark (due to terrain changes, replay broke. had to alter replay-still based on same solution)
    Also Note this Bonus 5 Lemmings' Ark was actually a Genesis level(Mayhem 30). I'm sure other Genesis levels are filled with backroutes too, but I don't think anybody has patched them.

Also you(Icho) listed 4-12 as being fixed, I think you meant 4-16 as the changes you described in 4-12 were applied to 4-16(Complete Autarky)


Anyways here are my 3 replays that broke(all other ones still work)

[kaywhyn]

Got the new pack update, and just wanted to give a quick remark for Devilish 27. Yes, the central trick required to solve the level is definitely enforced now despite how you can still abuse the digging through steel. However, you can only do that with the left entrance, and there's two spots after the bear trap where it's possible. It doesn't really matter, since the level's rendered impossible to solve if you do abuse it, as you won't have enough skills in the end. Thus, no need to fix the destructible moss in steel in those two places. The most important thing is that the digger must now be used in a specific area on the right side, thus enforcing the central trick.

Besides Devilish 27, I haven't looked at any of the other changed levels in the update. In any case, it'll be quite a while before I play this conversion pack, particularly since I have already completed the pack on Lemmini years ago. Essentially, it means playing the NL version of Dovelems is low priority for me, and there's a bunch of other packs I haven't played that I would like to get to soon. In the meantime, let's see if Shmolem is able to find any further backroutes.

[IchoTolot]

Also you(Icho) listed 4-12 as being fixed, I think you meant 4-16 as the changes you described in 4-12 were applied to 4-16(Complete Autarky)

Fixed.

[Swerdis]

Thanks kaywhyn,

yes, it felt a little strange that a new skill was introduced in the very last regular level of the pack. This was a clear sign that this level must have worked somewhat differently in Lemmini (which I dont' have any experience with). Also, this level was surprisingly easy - as were the two levels before. So, actually, for me the real peak of the pack in the end was Maso 27, "The Spring". This one wasn't THAT hard too, but it turned out to be one of my favourite levels of DoveLems.

Today I completed the penultimate rank of SEB Lems which, as a whole, is way more challenging than the former. I won't concentrate my entire Lemmings-energy on the Rapture rank - I'll give it a try now and then - but the result will be a very slow progress. Instead, I decided to start with PimoLems. I heard it's a little harder than DoveLems, but I hope it won't reach the heights of Flopsy's pack.

[kaywhyn]

Today I completed the penultimate rank of SEB Lems which, as a whole, is way more challenging than the former. I won't concentrate my entire Lemmings-energy on the Rapture rank - I'll give it a try now and then - but the result will be a very slow progress. Instead, I decided to start with PimoLems. I heard it's a little harder than DoveLems, but I hope it won't reach the heights of Flopsy's pack.

Nice job! I haven't played Seb Lems, but it is definitely on my to-play list. From what I heard, it's quite a difficult pack, so I'm definitely looking forward to the challenges in that pack and seeing how badly it will stump me. Given that I have already finished much harder packs like Reunion, United, and Lemmings Plus Alpha, it probably won't be too bad, but I won't know until I actually start playing it. So far, I have only completed the MegaSeBytes levels of the pack, which currently exists as a 30-level pack for Old Formats. I played that, not the actual aforementioned rank in the Seb Lems pack. The 30 MegaSeBytes levels are scattered in the various ranks of Seb Lems.

As for Pimolems, yes, it's definitely harder than Dovelems. In my experiences, the difficulty starts picking up a bit before the midpoint of the second rank, but it really gets amped up starting with the third rank and the difficulty stays quite high until the end of the Hurricane rank. The remaining ranks are special ranks containing levels specializing with the miner and one minute levels in Pickaxe and One ranks, respectively. They are slightly easier than the 4 main ranks, but there's still plenty of tough nuts in those ranks. In contrast, the difficulty curve of Dovelems tends to stay flat and is quite gentle throughout the entire pack. Even then, Pimolems is still quite tame compared to the other far more difficult packs I've mentioned, but I don't think it'll reach the peak of difficulty of what Seb Lems has to offer. This is just mere speculation on my part, as again I have never played Seb Lems, but I'm more certain than not that Pimolems doesn't get anywhere near as hard as Seb Lems.

I'm quite certain that you'll be able to conquer Pimolems in its entirety. As usual, if you get stuck, you can always drop a replay for Icho to view or ask any of us who have completed the pack for hints. I highly doubt you'll need any hints, as I'm positive you'll be able to solve them on your own, but if the need arises, you can ask.

See you on the other level pack topics with your replays and feedback.

[ericderkovits]

yes, Pimolems is also a better quality pack than Dovelems in my opionion. Also Dovelems had so many backroute issues(thus many pack updates by Icho). In comparison, not nearly as many in Pimolems to this point. I think Pieuw did a better job with his designing of levels compared to Dodochacalo. Also I think the levels are not as bland in Pimolems where in Dovelems alot of levels
are kinda dull(my opionion). There are though 6 recreations of glitch levels that had to be changed to fit in NL as those don't work except in the Lemmini version(won't even work in Superlemmini either thus I had to recreate those 6 in my conversion). Also Dovelems in NL didn't have custom music(boring Amiga tunes) where Pimolems had a music link for Pimolems by Icho.

Also as Armani mentioned the reason perhaps Dovelems and Pimolems aren't considered the hardest packs out there (where United and Seblems are harder) is because they came from Lemmini
which only had the original 8 skills.

[kaywhyn]

yes, Pimolems is also a better quality pack than Dovelems in my opionion. Also Dovelems had so many backroute issues(thus many pack updates by Icho). In comparison, not nearly as many in Pimolems to this point. I think Pieuw did a better job with his designing of levels compared to Dodochacalo.

I disagree completely here. Dovelems and Pimolems are both excellent packs in their own ways. Even though Dovelems has much more backroutes than Pimolems, the former is still quite well-liked due to its very gentle difficulty curve (pretty much what I like about it) and plenty of great levels. It also resembles the original Lemmings in terms of structure (4 ranks, 30 levels each). In contrast, Pimolems' main pack is much shorter at 4 ranks of 20 levels each, followed by 3 special ranks and a Bonus rank. I like how Pieuw is very detailed in his read-me file of the pack and his release topic. I enjoyed this pack somewhat more for the better challenges it provides, particularly since figuring out some of the more difficult ones was very satisfying. I probably didn't like some of the levels as much as I should had due to how it's very frustrating in Lemmini with no rewind feature available and how some I had to restart so many times. I definitely remember being frustrated by several Pimolems levels than I was at the Dovelems levels (I think there was only 1 or 2 levels in that pack that frustrated me, one of which was a Maso level Swerdis mentioned, where it wasn't the puzzle that was hard, but the execution). If I ever do end up playing the NL version of Pimolems, it should probably be a much more enjoyable experience overall. Same with Dovelems.

Also, you have to keep in mind that each author's design style is different and how each pack came about. This is where claiming Pimolems being higher quality than Dovelems is quite subjective and is not a fair comparison, since you're comparing apples to oranges here with the pack authors themselves. Some aren't bothered as much with backroutes (Dodochacalo), while others are (Pieuw). It doesn't mean that the former levels are bad or low-quality in any way. Dovelems was pretty much Dodochacalo's first pack that is still very well made, while Pimolems is a pack that has plenty of levels that came from other smaller packs Pieuw made. Pieuw might had been better in specializing at designing levels requiring exotic tricks, but remember that Dodochacalo has some of those levels as well in his other smaller packs. In any case, both Dovelems and Pimolems are very well-liked and have held up quite well to this day, backroute ridden or not.

Regarding the music, if you're bothered by the boring standard Amiga music, you can always mute it and put on your own music. Granted, it won't always sync up with the playing of levels, and will probably get annoying after a certain point, but there's always that.

[IchoTolot]

V 3.2 is out!

Backroute fixes:

- 2 03 (added traps and terrain)
- 2 05 (moved some flamers)
- 2 08 (RR set to 70 and locked)
- 2 11 (some terrain changes)

[IchoTolot]

Alright, the Plain replays I found from the SYCLW challenge showed no additional backroutes.

[uberwolfie]

Hi guys!

I felt like weighing in here, as I've been continuing to work on PimoLems, even as I needed to focus a bit more on work. I also took a break to finish Lemmings 2 so that RTW's let's play wouldn't get too ahead of me. I'm decently close to finishing PimoLems, just have slightly less than half of the One and Pickaxe ranks to get through, as well as the last half dozen or so levels of Hurricane, none of which will prove pushovers I'm certain

I will probably produce a complete review document of PimoLems, like I previously did with DoveLems, as I feel, like kaywhyn, that both these packs are important historically and aesthetically (not to mention in puzzle design of course), and I want to document my complete reaction. Also Icho you might be interested in my replays at that point, but it does seem like in PimoLems there's a lot less to fix.

I definitely share Eric's subjective experience that PimoLems is a better quality, stronger pack than DoveLems, although they certainly both have their strengths and weaknesses. DoveLems is definitely more approachable (I'm glad I played it first), but suffers very badly in the Maso rank from bad difficulty curve (I can't at all see why "Z for Zemmings" wasn't one of the very last major challenges in the pack). And the last two ranks in particular are extremely backroute prone, as we've seen especially recently with my and Swerdis's discoveries, and as I mentioned before, this left a bad taste in my mouth overall, even as I admired greatly many of the levels. I also have a certain distaste for what I think of as the "gimmick" levels, but that's more a matter of personal preference.

On the other hand, DoveLems I would say has more of an aesthetic, artistic atmosphere about it, Pieuw certainly has his moments in PimoLems, but Dodochacalo takes this to a new place. I'm also unsure about the relative predominance of levels in PimoLems requiring glitches. I like glitches, but I feel somehow that they're not a part of "regular" puzzle solving. In any case those levels, which of course I missed playing the NeoLemmix version, seem to have been tastefully handled from what I've seen.

Overall PimoLems has provided me a lot more satisfaction in terms of gameplay, and I really do get the sense that Pieuw is a more careful crafter of pure challenges. If the aesthetic is not an overt focus apart from a few beautiful cosmetic touches, the level architecture often seems like not a pixel is out of place as regards to the functioning of the puzzle, like it's been meticulously refined. And this impression is further backed up when I see him very often having a dialogue in YouTube comments and here on the board with people who play his levels, whereas Dodochacalo seems like a somewhat aloof figure these days (was he ever active much here or elsewhere?).

kaywhyn, you've also touched on something I have been wondering about, which is the exact relationship between the two packs; obviously both creators are French (I assume?) and many levels of DoveLems seem to be inspired by levels of PimoLems, or possibly vice versa. In some ways it seems almost like they have, or had (speaking of the landscape of this community in the Lemmini era) a common goal in terms of extending the field of possibilities of puzzle design, with DoveLems ending up feeling like a more "fun" introduction, and PimoLems being much more punishing, a compendium of unforgiving challenges.

Anyway, just my two cents this may have been discussed in depth before, but would be curious to hear from those who remember, or just have different feelings.

Btw, I'm also interested if there's ever been a proper ranking of difficulty of all the NeoLemmix packs out there, or at least the most famous ones. I haven't been able to find a handy list, just certain sporadic opinions. I know this is very subjective, but it's interesting to think about what makes a level hard in terms of specific attributes, for instance is it true as Eric implies that it's more difficult to make hard levels when only using the original L1 skills? maybe I should start a topic on this on another board to get a broader survey of opinions, or maybe someone else already has...

(PS: kaywhyn congrats on United, that's a massive achievement! )

[kaywhyn]

I felt like weighing in here, as I've been continuing to work on PimoLems, even as I needed to focus a bit more on work. I also took a break to finish Lemmings 2 so that RTW's let's play wouldn't get too ahead of me. I'm decently close to finishing PimoLems, just have slightly less than half of the One and Pickaxe ranks to get through, as well as the last half dozen or so levels of Hurricane, none of which will prove pushovers I'm certain

Well done, uber! You're definitely well on your way to finishing Pimolems. You're absolutely right about the remaining Hurricane levels. As I have already played the pack, in my experiences, the difficulty starts picking up a little bit before the halfway point of the second rating, but it really kicks up starting with the third rank and stays quite high up through the end of the Hurricane rank. As you might have seen, the Pickaxe and One ratings tend to be slightly easier than the levels in the main pack, but there's still some tough nuts in them, especially near the end. Note that I have only played the Lemmini version of the pack, but as all the levels are the same, my thoughts on the difficulty still holds. Just some are slightly easier or harder depending on which engine you're playing the pack in.

I will probably produce a complete review document of PimoLems, like I previously did with DoveLems, as I feel, like kaywhyn, that both these packs are important historically and aesthetically (not to mention in puzzle design of course), and I want to document my complete reaction. Also Icho you might be interested in my replays at that point, but it does seem like in PimoLems there's a lot less to fix.

Absolutely send your replays whenever you're ready. Not only are they very helpful for level pack authors, I think it's also fun to compare your own solution to others. For that, post them over at https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2327.0, since this is the Dovelems topic, not the Pimolems topic.

I definitely share Eric's subjective experience that PimoLems is a better quality, stronger pack than DoveLems, although they certainly both have their strengths and weaknesses.

Nothing wrong with saying this at all. It just happens to be one that I disagree with, because I just think that it doesn't make sense to compare two packs from two very different level designers and say that one is better quality than the other, as it's a case of comparing apples to oranges. What makes more sense is comparing two packs from the same author, eg, United being higher quality than Reunion makes sense since they're Ichos' packs. Another thing that makes sense to say is I enjoyed Pimolems slightly more for the better challenges it has to offer compared to Dovelems. Just my insight/thought.

On the other hand, DoveLems I would say has more of an aesthetic, artistic atmosphere about it, Pieuw certainly has his moments in PimoLems, but Dodochacalo takes this to a new place. I'm also unsure about the relative predominance of levels in PimoLems requiring glitches. I like glitches, but I feel somehow that they're not a part of "regular" puzzle solving. In any case those levels, which of course I missed playing the NeoLemmix version, seem to have been tastefully handled from what I've seen.

I'm indifferent about glitches, although I lean more towards I don't like glitch levels, since I'm one of those who believes that all skills should behave predictably and logically, not unpredictably and illogically. There were originally 6 glitch levels that can only work in Lemmini, which is what Pimolems was originally made for. All glitches got removed in NL, and therefore those levels won't work as they are and hence had to be modified/reworked in order to work in NL.

Overall PimoLems has provided me a lot more satisfaction in terms of gameplay, and I really do get the sense that Pieuw is a more careful crafter of pure challenges. If the aesthetic is not an overt focus apart from a few beautiful cosmetic touches, the level architecture often seems like not a pixel is out of place as regards to the functioning of the puzzle, like it's been meticulously refined. And this impression is further backed up when I see him very often having a dialogue in YouTube comments and here on the board with people who play his levels, whereas Dodochacalo seems like a somewhat aloof figure these days (was he ever active much here or elsewhere?).

I'm in complete agreement with the first sentence, as beating Pimolems levels definitely felt way more satisfying than beating levels in Dovelems. As for the last sentence, other members will have a better answer as to whether Dodochacalo was active on here. I only started posting to the forums earlier this year, although I've been a registered member since 2017. I think that time when I was just skimming and reading posts in secrecy, I didn't really see any posts from Dodochacolo, so that might had been long after he became inactive. Or maybe he wasn't ever active. I have no idea.

kaywhyn, you've also touched on something I have been wondering about, which is the exact relationship between the two packs; obviously both creators are French (I assume?) and many levels of DoveLems seem to be inspired by levels of PimoLems, or possibly vice versa. In some ways it seems almost like they have, or had (speaking of the landscape of this community in the Lemmini era) a common goal in terms of extending the field of possibilities of puzzle design, with DoveLems ending up feeling like a more "fun" introduction, and PimoLems being much more punishing, a compendium of unforgiving challenges.

Good observation. I honestly have no idea whether one was inspired for the other.

Btw, I'm also interested if there's ever been a proper ranking of difficulty of all the NeoLemmix packs out there, or at least the most famous ones. I haven't been able to find a handy list, just certain sporadic opinions. I know this is very subjective, but it's interesting to think about what makes a level hard in terms of specific attributes, for instance is it true as Eric implies that it's more difficult to make hard levels when only using the original L1 skills? maybe I should start a topic on this on another board to get a broader survey of opinions, or maybe someone else already has...

I think adding difficulty tags to NL packs was just very recent, as in within the last year or so. I wouldn't necessarily say that it's harder to make hard levels with just the classic 8 skills. Quite the contrary. For very good examples of this, look at Reunion, which you're currently playing IIRC, as well as Nepsterlems. Even though these packs only use the classic 8 skills, they're both quite difficult packs. However, I am of the belief that levels that only use the 8 classic skills are easier than those that have at least one NL skill. I think it's because pretty much everyone here is very familiar with the 8 classic skills and their mechanics, while the NL skills are not as familiar, though it's just a simple matter of familiarizing oneself with them via the NL Tutorial Pack. Then my original statement will become less true.

(PS: kaywhyn congrats on United, that's a massive achievement! )

Thanks a bunch, uber! Just so you know, I received Icho's United prize in the mail today

[uberwolfie]

Nice thoughts, always very good to hear!
I'm not sure I entirely agree with you in principle about comparing apples & oranges, certainly there are "objective" criteria which you can use to compare pretty much anything, especially Lemmings levels which all share a fundamental goal after all. It's just that everyone will value different criteria over others, thus subjective impressions will be formed. I do try to avoid unqualified sweeping statements like Eric's (not that I think sweeping statements are wrong, sometimes it's quicker to use them), but I can see personally where he's coming from.
Otherwise, completely agree with you, the packs definitely have different values themselves.
It's interesting about skills, in some way the constraint of the original skills seems to be a key ingredient in the puzzle aspect, adding extra ones has the danger of giving the lemmings too much "freedom" - this is something I was very aware of while playing Tribes, how it had such a different feel to its predecessor, maybe due in part to "overpowered" skills, but also a lack of focus (or even proper implementation) of the original ones despite their tried and tested usefulness. NL I would say seems to have done a very good job adding new skills that are actually useful but avoid this trap, and work well with the classic skills.
Anyway, that's potentially a discussion for another thread I guess
I got through the first rank of Reunion, and half of the second, some great levels although I must say I'm more excited to start on United which just seems like such a different scale. These will come more to the fore again I'm sure after PimoLems.
That's awesome about your prize - I hope things like that eventually end up in some kind of Lemmings museum though

[kaywhyn]

Regardless of whether or not you see it the same way as I do especially in regards to "apples to oranges" (which I admit is probably not the best way to express my thought on the matter but I think you see my point in attempting), they're simply opinions and when it comes to that you either agree, disagree, or somewhere in between or you're not sure. Still, it's always nice to hear thoughts from others, just like in the same way I think it's cool to see solutions from others, given that everyone pretty much approaches level solving differently and unless there's only one solution, people are very unlikely to come up with the exact same solution.

I got through the first rank of Reunion, and half of the second, some great levels although I must say I'm more excited to start on United which just seems like such a different scale. These will come more to the fore again I'm sure after PimoLems.

That's great! Still got a long way to go, but you're well on your way. United is definitely many times better than Reunion. Just beware that it is an extremely difficult pack. As you might had seen in the level pack topic itself, it took me exactly a year to beat the entire pack. And I wasn't even planning for the completion date to fall on the 1-year mark of when I started playing the pack. Nevertheless, I have the utmost confidence that you can beat it. Also remember that you can always ask Icho for a hint or anyone who has played/completed the pack for help anytime you get stuck. Though it wasn't very common and I'm one who prefers to avoid asking for help on solving levels, I had to ask Icho for help on a few levels.

That's awesome about your prize - I hope things like that eventually end up in some kind of Lemmings museum though

Now that would be something to see

[Shmoley]

So Devilish 30 hasn't been very nice to me.. I guess it's punishment for me breaking Devilish 27 so bad. But nothing seems to come together in this level no matter what I try.. 

[Proxima]

Devilish 30 is a beautiful level, easily one of the highlights of the pack. Keep going, you can solve it!

[Proxima]

Replays for the second half of Coward.

Regarding Coward 23 "Ask the Oracle":

Spoiler

I was stuck for a long time trying to do the long bash left-to-right, which is impossible because you have to build up from the step below to get high enough to start bashing -- but the step is 13 pixels below the minimum height you need to bash. I guess this isn't so bad because it's really clear that there is no way to make it succeed....

[IchoTolot]

V 3.3 is out!

Naming of the rank signs adjusted. For the update please delete the old version of the pack first.

[namida]

Went through Plain for SYCLW. You might want to take a look at the replay for Plain 25, Coward 7, Coward 25 and Coward 30 in particular.

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4614.msg87113#msg87113

[Shmoley]

I'm happy to announce that I've beaten Devilish 30! Proxima was right; it was a beautiful level it looks so confusing at first but once you get it just right it flows so beautifully! I've also beaten Maso 1 and 2

[kaywhyn]

I'm happy to announce that I've beaten Devilish 30! Proxima was right; it was a beautiful level it looks so confusing at first but once you get it just right it flows so beautifully! I've also beaten Maso 1 and 2

Hooray! Onto the final main rank, Maso. Then the Bonus rank. You can do this, Shmolem. I know you can. You come too far to not make it to the end

[Shmoley]

So I've made my way to Maso 9 (Live from the Pentagon) and Maso 8 just annoyed the heck out of me. It's probably the first time I've gotten genuinely frustrated at Lemmings. The execution is so precise I had to do it over and over and over until it finally just happened. Anyway. Maso 9. Interesting looking level but my current question on it is how to get the Lemmings down after you completed the path to the exit
Edit: Nevermind.. I just got it..
Edit 2: Sooooo.. Maso 10 looks extremely rough. Took one look at it and I'm just like well I'm screwed

[Swerdis]

I agree with that. I don't like Maso 8, too. The solution ist totally obvious, but the execution leaves no leeway at all. That's just frustrating. To be honest, Maso 10 looks more complicated than it really is. I partly backrouted this level, but this has probably been fixed by Icho. When I look at the rest of the levels, they are all quite feasible. The biggest challenges may provide Maso 18 (Take a Step Ahead!) and Maso 27 (The Spring). The final three levels are surprisingly easy. But then, there is at least one really hard level in the Bonus rank....

[IchoTolot]

The thing with Maso 8 is if you don't use the right technique for the stairs it's extremely precise. With the right technique it's not that hard to do.

I aggree though that it tend to get annoying. Maybe 1 turn would have been enough here.

[Pieuw]

It was nice to see Maso 8 in motion back then, but I can see how annoying it can be to make it work. Having only 1 turn wouldn't decrease the difficulty of the puzzle, it would ruin the name though. A > That Stands For >emmings?

[kaywhyn]

When only Maso 8 was mentioned, I kept wondering what level is this. Now that I took a quick look at it, yes, I 100% agree with both Shmolem and Swerdis that it is an extremely annoying level to pull off, especially when I first played through the pack on Lemmini many years ago. As I had mentioned a few times before, it's far worse on Lemmini due to no framestepping and skill shadows. Also, there are some really good levels that I ended up not liking as much as I should had only because of the execution difficulty that resulted in too many restarts, but this is more true with Pimolems than it was with Dovelems for me. Should be a much more enjoyable experience for me if and when I start playing Dovelems in NL. Just like both Shmolem and Swerdis said, it's obvious what needs to be done, just executing it in the middle area is frustrating. If anyone had mentioned the level title, like Pieuw did, I would had immediately remembered "Oh yes, that level! I remember I was very annoyed and frustrated when doing the solution."

[Shmoley]

I'm just steamrolling right now! Made it to Maso 16 which doesn't seem easy but lately every time I say that I seem to get it a few minutes after. So don't be surprised if you see me edit this post and say I got it.
Edit: What did I say ...... I beat it..
Edit 2: ANNNNDDD I'm up to Maso 20... I think I'm learning the way of the lemming!

[IchoTolot]

V 3.4 is out!

Backroute fixes thanks to a bunch of SYCLW replays:

- 1 20 (blocker+bomber count is now 1)
- 1 25 (extended the water downwards)

- 2 21 (added a OWW)
- 2 25 (added a OWW)
- 2 30 (moved+combined 2 pick-up skills)

[Shmoley]

Well... I'm just on a frenzy! I made it to Maso 28 last night and I'm gonna go try it again. I'm sure I can beat Dovelems by the end of the weekend.
Edit: I just beat the rest of Maso in like 2 seconds. The last levels were honestly WAY too easy. Just looked st the first Bonus level and it looks much harder than the last levels of Maso

[Shmoley]

I'm proud to announce that I've completed Dovelems in its entirety. The hardest level was definitely Bonus 1 Plahtorah's Temple it took me so long to figure out! Anyway, here are my replays.

I think now I'll either finish up Lemmings Plus 1 which Psycho 5 has been giving me problems for the longest time. Or I'll just find another pack to play. Maybe I should go for something a bit harder now? Any suggestions?

[kaywhyn]

Congrats on completing Dovelems, Shmolem! It was a long journey, but you finally did it! So that makes two packs you have finished, huh? Well done. I'm currently LPing the first pack you completed, Sublems.

As for other packs you can try your hand at, I can recommend Pimolems, Mobilems, and Lemmings Reunion. Note that I have only completed Pimolems on Lemmini, but the NL version has the exact same levels as the Lemmini version, with 3 extra levels that were added to the Special rank in the NL version so that there's 5 levels total instead of just 2 like in the Lemmini version. Also I still enjoyed the pack and can definitely recommend it. Starts off quite easy, but it does start getting difficult around the halfway point of the 2nd rank. The difficulty really picks up at the beginning of the 3rd rank and stays high up through the end of the Hurricane rank. Then you have the special ranks of Pickaxe and One, which both start easy and get difficult as you progress further in each one. The last pack recommended is the hardest out of the others I have recommended, with Pimolems the next one in difficulty, and Mobilems is the easiest of the recommended packs. Reunion has a nice difficulty curve but it gets difficult quite fast, much faster than the original game, but I'm sure it still won't be a problem for someone like you. It's also quite big, at 150 levels, tied with LPI. Perhaps since you're close to finishing that, you can try and complete that first or alongside whatever pack you decide to take on?

Or, if you're looking for much smaller packs to take on, I can recommend Lemminas which I just finished early this morning. The levels are quite easy for the most part, although it does have a decent number of shimmier levels. There were a few difficult levels, and one that I ended up struggling with a lot more than I thought, as seen by how I needed 3 videos in my LP to beat.     

[ericderkovits]

Yes, probably Pimolems is a good choice, since alot of people after playing Dovelems go do Pimolems after, like uberwolfie and Swerdis did. Also I would like as many backroutes to also be fixed by Icho, since I want to try to do possible backroute fixes in my Pimolems Superlemmini pack. Also Reunion is more difficult than Pimolems. It's a coincidence that the Author of Pimolems is currently
playing Reunion.

[IchoTolot]

V 3.5 is out!

Backroute fixes thanks to a bunch of SYCLW replays:

- 1 20 (-1 builder, -1 blocker)

[WillLem]

Dodo's LP of this pack has really cool music, I was just wondering why it's not included with the pack. Could it possibly be music that he used just for the LP...?

[kaywhyn]

Notice that they're test levels in Lemmini. Therefore, unless you specify a track for them in the individual .ini file, a random music track will play for them

[ericderkovits]

hey WillLem yes these are not ones included in the Lemmini pack download, but in his youtube Lp of the pack(Lemmini) it shows the name of the music he uses for the levels. So I can probably get the music for these from Zophars music website like I did with Franlems, and Dodo's Cachapack and Dodopack. But it will take a while, but I do have some of these ones already in my dropbox. But I'm sure there will be others. I will work on this slowly. Then I will put it into my SL version.

[WillLem]

I can probably get the music for these from Zophars music website like I did with Franlems, and Dodo's Cachapack and Dodopack. But it will take a while

No need to do this if it will take too long! I was only asking just in case the pack was meant to feature this music and it had somehow got misplaced... Btw, do you know the shortcuts to placing music in an SL pack? i.e. simply list the tracks at the top of the levelpack.ini and then put the ID at the end of each level in the list. Much quicker than editing the music level-by-level.

Incidentally, I've completed the first 10 levels of Devilish (in NeoLemmix) today WITHOUT HINTS!!! Replays attached.

[IchoTolot]

Your solution are either acceptable or intended, with 1 exception though: Your replay for Devilish 10 ends in a failure. It just sends a climber of the ceiling of the level and let's the crowd drown.

For the music: Be careful with putting in the music of the YouTube LP. It is most likely that he used a different track for every single level --> Your SL conversion will get VERY bloated in terns of filesize + filecount and you then have 145 music tracks just for this pack! It is likely a reason why the original Lemmini version did not do this (and also Lemmini not supporting MP3).

[WillLem]

Your solution are either acceptable or intended, with 1 exception though: Your replay for Devilish 10 ends in a failure. It just sends a climber of the ceiling of the level and let's the crowd drown.

Ah - this is because I had an older version of DoveLems. I've now updated to 3.5, and there is now a Blocker pickup which makes my original solution impossible; I'm guessing it was a backroute.

Anyways, I resolved it (again, without hints!!) and I'm pretty sure this is intended this time since it makes use of areas of the level my previous solution basically bypassed. Nifty little level; took me a while to get this one!

[IchoTolot]

That's intended now!

[kaywhyn]

For the music: Be careful with putting in the music of the YouTube LP. It is most likely that he used a different track for every single level --> Your SL conversion will get VERY bloated in terns of filesize + filecount and you then have 145 music tracks just for this pack! It is likely a reason why the original Lemmini version did not do this (and also Lemmini not supporting MP3).

125. You're thinking of Pimolems

[IchoTolot]

For the music: Be careful with putting in the music of the YouTube LP. It is most likely that he used a different track for every single level --> Your SL conversion will get VERY bloated in terns of filesize + filecount and you then have 145 music tracks just for this pack! It is likely a reason why the original Lemmini version did not do this (and also Lemmini not supporting MP3).

125. You're thinking of Pimolems

You are right. Still, 125 music tracks is not much better.

[ericderkovits]

yes I know music bloats my SL, but this doesn't bother me. Also In the Lemmings Reunion pack I gave the choice even to use the NL version music(which uses ogg-not in the original Lemmini version which uses the .mods-less space). But I enjoy better music. And since Dodo in his Youtube Dovelems LP uses other music, I still will give the choice like I did with Reunion.

and as far as being in MP3 that's not a problem as I use an online converter to convert to .ogg like I did with many for Dodo's franlems, cachapac and dodopac

[WillLem]

To be fair, music isn't that bloating (as compared to, say, video files), especially when it's in a compressed format like OGG, MOD or even MP3.

Also, once you have the music in your collection it's there for any pack that may use it, and gives you the opportunity to use it for your own packs.

[Proxima]

Replays for the Devilish rank. Not a huge amount to comment on in this rank -- don't think I found any real backroutes, though I sometimes had skills left over through being a bit more efficient than the level required.

WillLem and I were playing this together last night and we both commented on Level 17 "Maze in a Clepsydra". This requires one miner to release another, at the end of a long solution, with no skills available to correct the timing if it isn't already correct. As you know, this trick is relatively easy to pull off on most versions of Lemmings, but extremely fiddly on NL, requiring the relative timing of the two lemmings to be frame-precise. Not sure there is anything you can do about it without spoiling the puzzle, but felt it should be pointed out.

[IchoTolot]

The solutions are all acceptable or intended.

As you know, this trick is relatively easy to pull off on most versions of Lemmings, but extremely fiddly on NL, requiring the relative timing of the two lemmings to be frame-precise. Not sure there is anything you can do about it without spoiling the puzzle, but felt it should be pointed out.

Yeah, this is the problem of the level in general and there isn't really something I can do about it without completely changing the level. You mostly can achive this by varying the assignment of the skills before especially the miner position. It isn't totally frame perfect though and there is a LITTLE bit of leeway.

[IchoTolot]

I completely forgot that ShmoLem sent me DoveLems replays as well! Again they seem to be played on an older version as some replays were broken. The broken replays were:

1 20
3 14, 3 18, 3 21, 3 25, 3 27, 3 30
4 23
5 05

There were 2 backroutes though. -->

V 3.6 is out!

Backroute fixes based on ShmoLem's replays:

- 3 16 (some terrain changes)
- 3 26 (some terrain changes)

[jkapp76]

https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZSCxKXZuvFk9ine5XJrWSopFvDQr0q8JFzV

Here is a music pack for DoveLems. I downloaded this long ago for SuperLemmini and all I did here was create the Music.nxmi file and organize it so it plays in the correct order.

The download size is 378mb, so it's big, but I think it's worth the time. Just place the "Dovelems music" folder in your "music" folder and put the Music.nxmi file in your DoveLems Level folder.

[ericderkovits]

good job jkapp76. This is Dodo's choice of music he uses on his youtube channel when replaying his levels. I use this music also in Superlemmini's version, as it's better than the default amiga tunes.

[Proxima]

Replays for the Maso and Bonus ranks. There were just a couple of levels where I want to raise concerns:

Spoiler

Maso 11 "A Hard Nut Level": The solution in the attached screenshot feels intended, and would probably work in another engine, but fails in NL because of the builder's additional terrain checks. I was able to rearrange some skills to make a solution that worked, but this is now extremely tight and feels not-quite-intended. Maybe you could make the horizontal bar in the bottom-right 1 pixel thick instead of 2?

Maso 17 "The Crossing (Part III)": A plausible solution (replay attached) fails by literally two frames, and the solution I found that worked is again uncomfortably precise and doesn't feel quite intended. Since it has 9 seconds to spare, perhaps the exit could be moved further away to make it clearer that the first approach can't work?

Bonus 5 "Lemmings' Ark": This is just the original level. Should this still be packaged together with DoveLems, now that it is easily available to NL players in both the Genesis levels pack and Lemmings Redux?

[Proxima]

I solved all the levels.

[IchoTolot]

Will see when I get to the replays. I will probably be away next weekend but maybe I find time+mood to get through them during the week.

The Crossing was a level where I basically just let it be by now as quite a few alternatives popped up that are not really patchable. The moving the exit thing I will look into though. I will need to check if moving it will make other solutions extra tight.
The Hard Nut solutions looks like backroute though and I tend to patch it out, but I will see during the replay watching.

[IchoTolot]

V 3.7 is out!

Backroute fixes based on Proxima's replays:

- 4 11 (changed the bottom OWW to go both sides.)
- 4 13 (a builder is now a pick-up skill)

I've decided to not change Maso 17 "The Crossing (Part III)" because:

- Your solution that fails is actually the backroute I tried to block all the time.
- Your other solution that leaves 9 seconds is a variant of the intended one, even if it doesn't feel quite intended to you.
- Other viable solutions leave pretty much no time on the clock --> Moving the exits would make your backroute viable and on the other hand block intended solutions.

Let's say the level is not my favorite either and personally I would not include it in my own packs. At this point I only change it around when absolutely nessesary as even slight changes often introduce backroutes or make viable solutions unviable.

Bonus 5 "Lemmings' Ark": This is just the original level. Should this still be packaged together with DoveLems, now that it is easily available to NL players in both the Genesis levels pack and Lemmings Redux?

Dodo wanted the level in the bonus rank of the pack and I think even if it is somewhat redundant now it's fine.

[kaywhyn]

First two ranks complete. Replays attached and of course feedback, though of course would be more useful for Dodochacalo since Icho simply maintains the conversion of the pack.

General Feedback

DoveLems is a custom Lemmings level pack by Dodochacalo. While MazuLems was the very first custom level pack I ever played, DoveLems would be the very first huge, full game I ever played. I'll never forget how I found out about the pack thanks to rtw's LP of it. I remember searching for "custom Lemmings levels" or something like that on Youtube, and one of the things that popped up was a video by rtw which showed what the Lemmini engine was capable of. I immediately got hooked, and so I set off to set it up on my computer Then I went to get the pack itself, which I think might had led me to the Lemmings Forums, though it wouldn't be for several more years before I became a registered member of the site. Thus began my foray into the custom Lemmings scene on a port other than Dos, the one I grew up with. I ended up finishing the pack in about a week, I believe, back in the days on Lemmini. I don't exactly remember when I downloaded the pack, but I'm certain it was either one of 2012, 2013, or 2014. I'm thinking the last one of the three, as that was when I played through PimoLems before I didn't come back to the pack until 2017, when I finally did finish Pieuw's pack. I definitely finished DoveLems before playing through PimoLems, though, since the latter was the second custom level pack on Lemmini I played through. According to files on my hard drive, it appears I did indeed play through DoveLems in 2014.

Just to clarify in case I confused anyone, I have only played the Lemmini version of DoveLems. I haven't yet played Icho's NL conversion of the pack. I feel that now's a good time for me to finally do so, as I have already played through his conversion of Lemmings Reunion and Pieuw's PimoLems to NL. Time for me to finish up the triangle here! The interesting thing is that I went backwards for NL. On Lemmini, in order, first I did DoveLems, then PimoLems, and finally Lemmings Reunion. Whereas for NL, I first did Lemmings Reunion, then PimoLems, and finally I'm doing DoveLems. Icho has definitely did a great job with his own Reunion pack and same thing with maintaining the NL conversions of the other two level packs, one from Dodochacalo, the other from Pieuw.

Also, I think I only watched either the first or second level of rtw's video before I decided to try out the pack myself. I think I remember watching more of his LP as I completed more of the pack just to compare and also because it's fun to hear how his experience with the pack/levels was. I definitely was blown away by Dodochacalo's pack at the time and when I finished it. Indeed, the pack's popularity can be seen in this thread from how several members have finished the pack. Going through the pack again after so long has definitely reminded me why I like Dodochacalo's pack a lot. Not to mention that it's great going back to easier than usual levels again after a long time, when I've played nothing but hard levels for the last several months.

As it's been a long time since I last played through DoveLems, I definitely have forgotten a lot of the levels, especially from the first two ranks, Plain and Coward. At the same time, I did see resemblance of Dodochacalo's level building style with that of Pieuw's in some of the Coward levels. Indeed, Pieuw has confirmed that back in the days he and Dodochacalo bounced off a lot of ideas from one another for their levels. Needless to say, they got a lot of inspiration from one another.

Not relevant to this topic, but Dodochacalo has also authored two mini 10-level packs, as well as FranLems, a 40-level pack that is entirely in French, as he hails from France, just like Pieuw, the author of PimoLems. These packs are also all for Lemmini. I too remember starting FranLems, got stuck on some Pillar level, and didn't come back to the pack for a while, though I can't recall if I finished that before or after PimoLems.

I think it's now been about a year or so, but Pieuw gave us word that he and Dodochacalo are currently collaborating with each other on a new level pack. However, Pieuw hasn't been able to get a hold of Dodochacalo for a while, and so it appears that progress has come to a halt for the time being. In particular, Pieuw doesn't wish to touch any of Dodochacalo's levels without his permission, and so he simply is working on making changes to his own levels or making new ones without the latter's contribution. I'm hoping Pieuw does eventually get a hold of him, as I would definitely love to see their finished pack. I really like both DoveLems and PimoLems and think quite highly of them. Recently, I saw that Dodochacalo released an update for his Lemmini packs near the end of 2023 according to Dropbox info, while NeoDoveLems' Dropbox link hasn't been updated since 2021.

I'm not sure if Dodochacalo was ever a member of this site, so maybe a longtime member can confirm this?

Plain Rank Feedback

The first rank of the pack, it starts off with mostly single skill type tutorial levels, followed by easy levels/puzzles. However, I must say that while going through the rank that honestly I don't remember the difficulty being very wonky. That's how long it's been since I last played the pack on Lemmini. For example, I got stuck longer than I should had on both Plain 11 and Plain 30, though to be fair for the latter it is the final level of the rank. It definitely didn't help that I was doing a very late night solving session, and as we probably all know when you're exhausted you tend to not think clearly mentally. Thus, for the former it made me wonder what it was doing that early in the rank, especially as it was a limited skills level mixed in with the X-of-everythings around it. Then again, the pack is more patched up than it is on Lemmini and therefore the levels are likely more challenging than they should be as a result. Even then, the pack's difficulty still doesn't come anywhere near those of some packs that were later released, such as Reunion and NepsterLems.

Plain 1 - Again our Famous Lemmings ! Good level that is a great way to ease oneself into the custom Lemmings scene and get back into the game of Lemmings, though my nitpick is the first miner is more precise than it needs to be and therefore this can probably be a bit too harsh in players' eyes for the first level of the pack. Then again, you only need to save 4 out of 20 so that even if you don't place the first miner correctly you can still savage the level and convert it to a solve.

Plain 8 - The Snowy Base Hmm yea, this level seems quite a bit difficult for its position because of the skillset, though again the save requirement is extremely lenient.

Spoiler

The hardest part here is getting down safely, though then again maybe I'm more critical of the level than I need to be, because I do believe it's possible to simply get everyone down to the bottom and then simply build up, instead of the faster solution I used of just bunkering everyone at the top. 10 builders does seem that it's more than enough to get up completely from the bottom.

Plain 11 - Concentration Camp As mentioned, I was stumped here for a bit but again it didn't help that I was doing a very late night solving session. I still stand by the assertion that this level seems a bit hard for its position, though I know the ordering won't change since this is Dodochacalo's pack and therefore Icho simply kept the level order as it is.

Spoiler

For some reason I kept thinking to sneak enough past the first stumper trap, when in fact you can simply avoid losses and put blockers before they walk into the trap triggers. However, now that I'm looking at it again I think it is possible to do just that.

edit: Yea, it's possible. Replay attached, so two replays for Plain 11

Plain 15 - Ground Floor, Please Great level and a fun one to go for the extra challenge of a save all

Plain 19 - Yours Diabolically Another really fun one to go for a save all, even if it's a bit repetitive

Plain 20 - Wooden House Hmm, I'm not sure how I feel about the major changes to the skillset here because of SYCLW. This seems very harsh for a first rank level now!

Spoiler

If my solution is intended/acceptable, then here we have a case of a level where you need to build to reach the exit trigger, which honestly is a huge leap especially for casual players. In addition, building to get over an exit. Both of these in the same level make it too difficult IMO.

Plain 23 - Can you Bomb It? Another level that seems a bit harsh, though in fairness it is close to the end of the rank. In addition, the same solution for its repeat in the next rank can be used here, though of course there's still multiple ways to solve this one.

Plain 26 - Stalactites or Shortcut ! An excellent level with a time limit that's well-justified!

Plain 27 - Lemmings on the Spot I really like the sense of urgency of finishing on time here!

Plain 28 - Here's the Final Flourish Another level that's probably too harsh for a first rank, though again it's justified being near the very end of the rank.

Spoiler

Nuke levels tend to be in the later ranks of a pack, hence why I think this type of level is a bit harsh for just the first rank

Plain 30 - Cisterns, Chains and Blocks The other level that I got stumped on longer than necessary but a really good one to finish off the rank, particularly since it has some elements that haven't been seen in any of the earlier levels of the rank.

Spoiler

Splat hatch and red herrings that look like they could work but will leave you short on bashers if you choose the wrong side. So, the player needs to think which side needs to be taken because there actually is a "wrong" choice."

I kept thinking I was a basher short no matter what, when in fact I didn't think about the bashing at the end part correctly. I kept thinking to bash to get to the right exit and then I wouldn't have anymore to free the crowd, when in actuality you go for the left exit despite needing to go through the maze on the right side of the level.

Coward Rank Feedback

Being the second rank, the levels here are a bit harder than the ones in the previous rank. Interestingly enough, I cruised through the rank a bit faster than I did with the Plain rank.

Spoiler

Coward 1 - Caution, Work in Progress ! Good level to start off the rank but IMO maybe a bit difficult to start it off. Then again, I realized much later that my solution is a bit harder than it needs to be, as interrupting a basher midstroke isn't really required at all.

Coward 2 - Toes of the Earth Nothing too special other than using miners to get through obstacles instead of bashers

Coward 3 - Impolite Climbers Nice puzzle involving figuring out how to get outside to release the crowd. This would be a good introduction level to building to reach the exit trigger, meaning Plain 20 can probably go to somewhere here in the second rank.

Coward 4 - Use Something to Turn ! Probably way too harsh for this early in the second rank, though the level does at least teach the player how to turn around with just builders/miners instead of relying on the common method of blockers.

Coward 5 - Avoid the FlameThrower Excellent level! Another one that teaches the player that you can use the tail end to get your worker Lemming instead of the one in the front or the first one.

Coward 6 - Under the Floor Great level teaching the player that one of the entrances needs help from the other one to get down and to the exit safely.

Coward 7 - City Machines Lemmings Another excellent level! This one definitely reminded me of Nepster's Scarlet level from the Planet rank of NepsterLems, which if I'm not mistaken won LOTY.

Coward 8 - Break the Wall Great puzzle, one of my favorites too. The method to get a climber to dig in such a way so that the others are still contained and he can build to reach the exit is ingenious. Your choice as to releasing the others with either someone from the crowd or by having the climber turn around, though it depends if the latter turns around or not, which is dependent on how low you dig before you mine.

Coward 9 - Where a Lemming Has Never Gone Ceiling route! Also making that splatform with the floater.

Coward 10 - Bashers Are Back ! Repeat of Plain 3 and a non-trivial bashers only level but it's still not that hard, though extra care must be taken of dealing with the first two Lemmings so that no one turns around at the start.

Coward 11 - Every Lem for Himself ! Excellent level! I especially like the mining to delay the left entrance long enough for the left builder to finish. Same with bashing with the second Lemming from the bottom right entrance so the builder is left undisturbed and the bombing the digger once low enough to allow the top left entrance through the OWW.

Coward 12 - To Infinity and BEYOND !!! Ah, Dodochacalo must be a Toy Story fan. Repeat of Plain 18 but with bombers in place of the bashers. I don't think the left side is plausible this time around.

Coward 13 - SeeSaw Great puzzle, especially with having the worker turn around first before digging and then making the path before releasing the others with digger/basher staircases, which the level teaches the player. I definitely remember some of those from PimoLems!

Coward 14 - The Labyrinth of the Lemmynotaur Nothing special other than red herring bombers which can't be used since you need to save everyone.

Coward 15 - Strato and Cumulus Ah, the level IMO which Proxima was correct to say that earlier versions of it is too difficult for its position this early in the pack and hence it is harmed by it. This change that Icho made is definitely better, though it still took me a few tries before I got it solved since it's been a while since I last took a look at this.

Coward 16 - Trident of Fire Hmm, I think I remember this one being a bit annoying to do on Lemmini because of the timing. This one took me a few tries as well before I got it all to work out, though I do acknowledge that I might had made it more complicated than I needed to. Nice music choice here, seems that Dodochacalo is an Aladdin fan too! Since it is the opening song of the movie.

Coward 17 - Lost in the Canyon I was able to save two miners here, but it's definitely to make it easier to get the others up rather than build up to the second miner tunnel. I think it would still use all the builders anyway.

Coward 18 - The Broken Tower Nice level teaching players how to make a climber friendly wall for the others with a builder when there's a single pixel gap between the walls.

Coward 19 - Observation Posts Nice level. That's especially a nice red herring of looking like it's possible to go over the top to reach the exit but you don't have enough builders for that.

Coward 20 - It's Not an Illusion ! Easy, though the time limit is quite tight, but that can be less of a problem if you simply up the RR at the start and then max it out at the right time. It's easier to place the blockers on Lemmini since it's not possible to do a passthrough blocker on that engine.

Coward 21 - Death Camp Had a much easier time with this one than Plain 11, interestingly enough. I think it was due to how I remember there being climber bombing which I was distracted by on the Plain version.

Coward 22 - The Giant Stairway Easy one as long as you place your builders right and don't touch the RR before you need to.

Coward 23 - Ask the Oracle Took me some time, as I couldn't remember how to solve it, but that long basher on the right side is a bit hard to see. Seems the athlete skills are red herrings, but I could be wrong.

Coward 24 - Lemmings-Digging Iron Plates Much easier since the guesswork is taken out completely due to NL standards. For Lemmini, it's complete guesswork, though I think there is a way to tell where it's destructible. Not sure, but I will be going through the Lemmini version of the pack once I'm done with the NL conversion and I have recorded my commentary video series

Coward 25 - Academy of Eight Excellent level! I really like how it's all logical where the skills go in order to get everyone to the exit. I have a blocker left, but I think it's simply to make some timing easier.

Coward 26 - Let Him Go Alone ... This one gave me trouble, as I couldn't remember how to do it. In the end I made the solution probably a bit harder than it needed to be. The start is a bit fiddly as a result. I tried the Lemmini version which seems to have one additional digger, but I got it to work after a bit struggling there too. Not sure why I didn't see the Lemmini solution earlier I do believe there's a PimoLems level that hinges on a similar method here, so you can definitely see the inspiration that Dodochacalo and Pieuw got from one another!

Coward 27 - Molotov Cocktail and Co Ah, yup another level I can see where Pieuw got inspiration from. It's a great level that can teach players how to make staircases with blockers/diggers, though it's not necessary as you can lose 2, but the challenge for the save all is there if you want to go for it. I personally am not a fan of levels where you need to repeatedly spam the same skill(s) over and over. This one is definitely a much more extreme version of Pieuw's from PimoLems, as his level is less repetitive and also only has two Lemmings.

Coward 28 - Valley of Chameleon Was stuck for a bit since I was figuring out how to save a builder, but I was simply a dummy and didn't think to bash through the OWW before doing the building at the end. That part is genius, with the climber going over to do it and then the others can free themselves with a miner. Excellent level, with my only nitpick is the first miner at the start is too precise.

Coward 29 - Sky Won't Help You Quite easy for this late in the rank. Nothing special other than upside down water that has strange trigger areas that's far below where the water is.

Coward 30 - A Perfect Symmetry First level of the pack to have pickups. Another nice level to finish the Coward rank on. I really like how the solution all comes together in the end with work in different parts of the level. Can be chaotic but luckily it's a short level and is easy to manage other than the high RR which makes things tricky. 

Looking forward to going through the remaining two main ranks of the pack! Definitely enjoying DoveLems again after so long and remembering why I think it's an excellent pack in the first place!    

[kaywhyn]

I was just on a roll both yesterday and today and played and solved the rest of the pack, so it's all complete and therefore my entire replay collection is attached and of course some additional feedback

Devilish Rank Feedback

Things really start to pick up in the difficulty here, though they don't peak here. Instead, that would be for the Maso rank. Once again, while going through this rank, there were a lot of levels that I didn't remember here. In addition, some of the levels got me wondering whether I was playing a DoveLems level or a PimoLems level, as I definitely remember a similar level from the latter, whether in the design or possibly even the level title. Not to mention some of them did get me to go, "This is a DoveLems level? Wow, I actually don't remember some of these!" Yup, that's how long it's been since I last went through the entire pack on Lemmini!

Spoiler

Devilish 1 - Welcome to the Jungle ! Ah, must be a Guns N' Roses fan. Quite a nice level to start off the rank! Unless I made the solution harder than it needed to be, I kind of vaguely remember there being some timing needed. Took me a bit to remember how to solve it.

Devilish 2 - Integrated Circuit Easy one. Nothing special other than teaching the player that you can build over a blocker I guess.

Devilish 3 - Bubble Bath Decent one, though I think there are a couple of levels with this title. Before I finally got the solution to work, I incorrectly kept doing this the other way, where I had one dig the right side at the top, while the other climber builds to get over the other side and dig that down. It would had worked but unfortunately it doesn't get you high enough because you don't build a full length bridge going to the right from the bottom with the second builder on top of the first one. So, it appears that one needs to do both diggers on the right side at the top instead. In any case, the level does teach players that you can get pretty high up by widening the shaft you build up by digging away the walls.

Devilish 4 - Lake Shore Paradise This was more annoying than I remembered it, though it seems that I made things harder than they needed to be. I just couldn't figure out what to do with the spare digger. As a result, I kept needing to readjust the positions of the diggers and when to start bashing. So, it can be fiddly if you let it be, but the timing is still difficult here.

Devilish 5 - Brick-A-Brack Hmm, not sure if this is a backroute considering the leftover skills I have. This was a lot easier than I remembered. I could had sworn the miner/builder combo is needed here, but I didn't have to do that at all in this level. I might even be remembering wrong about the combo being required.

Devilish 6 - In the Heart of the Pyramid Excellent level! I really like the part with bombing the faller to stop the digger and then the surviving climber does the rest of the work for the crowd. Then just a bomber to release them.

Devilish 7 - Steampunk Another easy one as long as you use the last Lemming to do the work.

Devilish 8 - Stocked Lemmings Got to love these 1-of-everything levels in just the classic skills. This one is great too! I really like how all the skills are used on this level to make for a really great solution. Especially that blocker to contain the crowd and then mining to release him and to make the fall survivable.

Devilish 9 - The Gravity Zero Nice somewhat easy puzzle, with the only hard part being to assign the floaters in such a way so that the others bunch up and only 1 die per trap. The timing for the basher to finish is a lot tighter than I remembered, though.

Devilish 10 - The Eighth Wonder of the World I like the trick of bombing the blocker and the others free from below with the worker climber, but this was more frustrating than it needed to be, as I needed to adjust the position of the blocker and when to start building with the digger several times before I finally got it to work and no one splatted from the fall or went out the wrong way. Then again, I think the fiddliness was all from how I placed the blocker. Even then, great level!

Devilish 11 - Across the Blizzard Way too easy!

Devilish 12 - It's a Ruin World Another great level where I really like how the solution all comes together. Mining to delay the others to give the worker enough time to build over the trap and the gaps. My mistake before was mining through the wooden pillar instead of bashing. The former causes the builder to turn around and therefore some will fall into the water.

Devilish 13 - Art of Mining Repeat of Plain 1, but here players must discover that it's possible to cancel a miner with one going in the other direction.

edit: Ah, no, it's not exactly required, as you can still finish on time without it, but time will be much tighter as a result.

Devilish 14 - Chernobyl Survivors Somewhat difficult and a bit harder than I remembered, but a pretty decent one. Repeat of a level earlier in the rank, Devilish 3. The hardest was figuring out how to get up to the exit with the very limited skills and with way less builders. It was a bit hard to release the crowd at the right time in order to block and turn the climber around. I then gained more height with him by bombing him when he has climbed high enough.

Devilish 15 - Devil's Horns Another one that is a bit harder than it looks and harder than I remembered, though this isn't too bad as long as you do it correctly. My initial mistake was thinking a climber needed to turn around to release the others with a miner, but the problem here is that the climber will splat after climbing the pole on the far left. Instead, the crowd can simply release themselves with a basher.

Devilish 16 - Lems Play Hide and Seek Another nice level that involves bombing from below to release a blocker that is in place above the basher. I really like this delay to give the worker enough time to build the long bridge to the exit.

Devilish 17 - Maze in a Clepsydra Ah, yea now I remember why this can be frustrating, though quite honestly I vaguely remember this level. You just need to play around with the timing and positioning of the skills in order to make the timing correct to cancel the miner going to the right.

Devilish 18 - It's an Evil Symphony ! Somewhat difficult and confusing, but it wasn't as bad as I thought, though that might be because my solution is a backroute due to the leftover skills Also I must say that's visually deceptive with what's going on with the far right exit, as I thought a digger was needed to get down to it, when in fact there is a very narrow open path to it already. I honestly don't remember that from Lemmini at all, and so that would be Dodochacalo's doing, not Icho's, as the latter simply kept the layout the way the former has it.

Devilish 19 - Poor Scapegoat ! Nice level with workers going a different route while the crowd is delayed with the terrain from above to give the builders enough time to make the path.

Devilish 20 - Stratum Much harder than I remembered, though that is likely because of the pickup skills here. Vaguely remember this level too. Not sure if this is intended.

Devilish 21 - Lem Pipe Another one that is harder than it looks despite the somewhat generous save requirement. You still have to be quick to save the others before you lose too many. Being one pixel off with only a builder left even when all bridges have been stretched is evil, I must say! Though, I later tried another way which also works but you end up losing more Lemmings this way.

Devilish 22 - One-Way Traffic I definitely remember this one, and this totally just reminded me of Armani's R3 in the current LDC (#29) but the latter's is far harder and the one I described as "Tailor-made for blockers" on crack Dodochacalo's level is far easier.

Devilish 23 - They're the Best Among the Best I honestly don't remember this level. Nothing special here other than you can't do all the building from the left and instead will need to do it from the right.

Devilish 24 - Staircase to the Bottom Nothing too special here either other than you need to block on a builder staircase so that you can free him later. Looks like I could had finished with a builder and digger to spare had I blocked on the first Lemming's bridge instead

Devilish 25 - The Way to Go Up I think this might be the only level that has changed from the Lemmini version if I'm not mistaken. I think it's simply from the Lemmini version is unfixable here for NL. This is a great level teaching players that you can recycle the blocker for later on the same staircase again so everyone heads towards the exit, as you don't have a spare builder to patch up the staircase again.

Devilish 26 - The Triangular Prison This is a level that looks intimidating and difficult but it's really not that bad. The only hard part was releasing the climbers at the right time so that they overtake the basher and can climb to get to the upper right exit. I think this was the part I remember struggling with on Lemmini, so that's pretty much the thing that makes the level stand out.

Devilish 27 - Don't Choose Pretty much Mayhem 6 but with two entrances and a steel wall separating them. I definitely remember this being one of the harder levels of the pack. I think pretty much any solution requires the Dolly Dimple builder trick to isolate a worker, just not with building under an entrance.

Devilish 28 - Assault Course I honestly don't remember this level either. Didn't use the bomber and hence my solution is a save all

Devilish 29 - La France Ugh, repeated bomber spamming isn't exactly my favorite type of level. I certainly remember how annoying this is on Lemmini due to the bombers being timed, but well, I'll have to endure it again once I go through the Lemmini version again

Devilish 30 - Make the Big 8 Ah, this one definitely reminds me of Pieuw's "Nick of Time," which is also a rank finisher. The hard part is just knowing how to get a worker ahead to make the route, as well as how to delay the crowd long enough to give the worker the time he needs to finish the work before the others arrive. A really nice level to end the rank!         

Maso Rank Feedback

The hardest levels of the pack are here, as this is the final main rank. To be honest, I didn't struggle as long as I thought I would, even though it's been years since I last played the pack. There's definitely some standout gems here, though!

Spoiler

Maso 1 - Like a Ski Slope ! Another nice rank opener. My only critique here is the very precise miner placement. Also, I honestly don't remember using all builders to turn around on the Lemmini version, though once again I simply could be remembering things wrong.

Maso 2 - In the Lemming's Cold A bit harder than the previous level but still nothing too difficult. My solution is probably harder than it needs to be, especially as I chose a really pixel precise placement for the first miner so that the next Lemming barely avoids the trap trigger. Perhaps the spare miners I had could be used to make things easier Not sure.

Maso 3 - Half Stone, Half Metal Nice level. I especially like how the second climber needs to finish up the rest of the mining at the top first before mining the others free. Nice solution needing to go through the outside first before turning back towards the huge wall.

Maso 4 - I Am A.T. II Ok, I definitely didn't remember Dodochacalo having any I Am A.T type levels, let alone two in the pack. I don't know if I made the basher placements more precise than they needed to be, though.

Maso 5 - Mined the Step ! Ah, seems to be a recreation of Martin Zurlinden's level from Mazulems.

Maso 6 - A Kind of Camel Nice level, though wasn't there a similar level from Mazulems? I really like how there's two workers here.

Maso 7 - Twisting Road Another repeat, but this time building up like I did in the original is impossible. This version looks quite daunting but it's really not that hard, though it still might not be obvious how to get up to the exit even with the several miners and very limited builders in the skillset.

Maso 8 - A Z That Stands For Zemmings Ah, I'll never forget rtw's rant on this level, though it's definitely way more frustrating on Lemmini since there's no rewinding and one screw-up causes a complete restart. Even with NL's convenience features it can still be frustrating on the execution. The concept in the level is nice, but yea, I can sympathize with others who had similar frustrations with this one. I guess in a way this is Maso 5 but with builders instead of natural terrain to keep the miner going.

Maso 9 - Live From the Pentagon Getting down is certainly the hardest part. Other than that, it can also be difficult to determine when to release the crowd so you don't run out of time.

Maso 10 - Two in One Solution is easy, but executing it can also be very difficult. Luckily, you just need to adjust when to build for the Lemmings to hit their heads to turn around, as the optimal RR is pretty much already set for you and hence you don't need to worry about it. The multi-tasking is what bumps up the difficulty and therefore the level is worthy of the Maso ranking.

Maso 11 - A Hard Nut Level Ok, this was probably the hardest level for me in the entire pack. There were so many things I tried and kept coming up a skill short or I wouldn't be able to save the climber in the end. Also building to get back up the right side was frustrating. I'm very curious what's intended here. Something tells me that because of the arrows going in both directions that it's intended to bomb there. Here, I needed to rely on some really good timing so that I could get back up with just 1 builder. I probably spent a good hour or so on this level alone!

Maso 12 - Connect 4 Good and somewhat easy level. Back to the old bouncing a miner twice with two blockers but definitely easier due to the terrain!

Maso 13 - A Search for Treasure Looks quite intimidating but another level where I really like how the solution all comes together. It can all be figured out with some logic. My mistake was thinking that the far left ones needed to build to catch the ones from the right, when in fact it's just bashing to the left and the building to the left. Nice use of the digger to delay the one that got the builder pickup, but that was certainly the hardest to see how to use on this level.

Maso 14 - Windy Coast Another nice level where the start is the hardest but once you're successful in figuring out how to not lose anyone the rest is easy. It honestly didn't look like there's enough time to build and bash to be able to finish off the second gap before the others arrive while they are temporarily contained in the digger pit, but it's the only way to do the level without using up the other skills which are necessary elsewhere.

Maso 15 - Tunnel under Channel Another great level where the timing all works out when the miner and builder meet at the right time and one where again you don't need to worry about the RR because the default is a maxed out 99.

Maso 16 - Complete Autarky This one I kind of remember. Another great level, though honestly I don't remember doing what I did at the very end on Lemmini. I'll find out when I go through that version again. Other than the end part looking pretty hackish, this solution does seem intended

Maso 17 - The Crossing (Part III) Hmm, I wonder where the other two such levels are. I honestly can't recall right now. Anyway, I had to adjust the builder placements several times with the first climber and floater before it all works out. It doesn't matter if the floater turns around, but it's crucial the climber doesn't. Even if he doesn't go to his death after that, I'm not sure if there's enough time for him to make a return trip back to the left exit. So really, another level with a solution that isn't difficult but its execution is, especially with making sure the bridges cross and not either one getting interrupted midway.

Maso 18 - Take a Step Ahead ! Repeat of Devilish 2 but builders only this time. To compensate for the lack of a blocker, you have more builders available and also the Lemming count is less. It's not that much harder than the original, though you just need to know how to delay the others long enough to give the worker enough time to make the path to the exit.

Maso 19 - Quarry of Jewels I honestly didn't remember there being an extending a basher with builders level from Dodochacalo, but luckily there's some extras in case you need them to make the setup correct. There's a Fire level from PimoLems that requires this same trick, so you can really see the inspiration they got from one another for their separate packs.

Maso 20 - The Hatch I vaguely remember this one but it's a pretty good one and one of my favorites. You just need to realize that the work on the left side needs to be done first before crossing over to the right side with the floater to prepare the rest of the way. As a result, the digger needs to be placed precisely to allow him to climb over.

Maso 21 - Be the One ! Definitely a somewhat harder recreation of Havoc 2, as I couldn't remember how to solve this one for a while. Getting the others down is the hardest part IMO. Just like many levels with a lot of builders, don't be fooled, as they run out much faster than expected! Decent level.

Maso 22 - The Horizontal Barbarous Bars Ah, Pieuw has a similarly titled level in the Hurricane rank from his pack with more or less the same concept as this one. Not a hard one, just can be a bit hard on the execution since you need to place the bombers correctly to allow the bottom worker to connect to each floor with just one builder.

Maso 23 - The Motor Show Nice level which is definitely far more interesting than the original from the Plain rank. The hardest part is figuring out how to isolate a worker, but here you just need two separate two digger pits, the left one which needs one Lemming with the digger. I like how there are workers doing the path in separate parts of the level.

Maso 24 - Smash Your Button ! Way too repetitive for my liking and one in which it can get very frustrating since you need to place the diggers correctly or you won't get the worker to finish the tasks on time. As such, it's much harder to execute on Lemmini. In NL it's better, but it still gets annoying since you can really skip ahead here.

Maso 25 - I am A.T. III Miners version of this type of level with the time limit being a huge problem here as in contrast to the diggers and bashers the miner is the slowest of them. I'm sure I could had made the time less tight by maxing the RR sooner. The ripoffs of this type of level aren't necessarily my favorites TBH.

Maso 26 - Sharin' the Fuel Except for the part where I just delay a Lemming with a climber and I make the second Lemming joint build with the first one, this looks intended.

Maso 27 - The Spring Can be difficult but it's a pretty good one. I initially thought to release the crowd at a time so that one of the last non-climbers can do the digging and release the blockers on the right side, but I ran into the problem that he wouldn't be able to reach the exit later. Seems that you can simply just use the climber who did all the building to the exit to save the blockers too. For some reason I didn't think it would work, but it does, you just need to keep in mind that they can simply all climb out the right side to reach the exit. Care must be taken to how you do the digging, though.

Maso 28 - Imposing Block Ah, definitely not one of my favorites because of the repeated bombing and how very frustrating it is on Lemmini because you need to place all the diggers precisely. Seems that it's not that much better on NL, though luckily there's still rewinding/framestepping available.

Maso 29 - All Turns Around the Time Nice level and except the part where I use a builder to turn a climber around, this looks intended.

Maso 30 - Gliding in Labyrinth Zone The only level of the pack that has a NL skill due to how this is the closest you can get to reproducing the miner behavior on Lemmini where if you assign it at the very edge it will jump forward a pixel and therefore land on the other side instead of dropping in the pit with the others. Since all glitches in NL are eliminated, this is the best one can do to replicate it. Of course, one could avoid NL skills by simply giving a climber instead, but the solution wouldn't be as interesting and some changes would be needed in the next area after the first gap. A really nice level to finish off the main pack!     

Bonus Rank Feedback

Just 5 additional challenges after you finish the main pack. Out of these, Bonus 1 was the hardest one for me aside from Maso 11. Bonus 5 won't be spoiler tagged, since I think there's plenty who are familiar with the level as it comes from the Genesis/Megadrive port, but that one took me a while because I couldn't get the middle area to work out. Turns out I didn't do it correctly from some of the earlier parts. I definitely remember this one taking me a while when I first played the Genesis/Megadrive port on an emulator years ago! A much more worthy level to finish the Mayhem rank on IMO!

Spoiler

Bonus 1 - Pletorah's Temple Definitely much harder with it patched up, though I remember doing something very fiddly on Lemmini that was also frustrating to get it to work. It was really hard to figure out how to get just one Lemming to get the bomber pickups safely while just losing one to turn the others around. I do like the solution, especially with bombing a nearby Lemming to stop the climber who's mining, but I still needed to do a lot of tweaks to get the timing to all work out.

Bonus 2 - Only in the Footsteps of God Definitely better here since you can see which letter blocks are trapped and which are safe. The builders might seem like a lot, but I'm not sure if it's possible to have any spare.

Bonus 3 - Just my Pretty Remake I interestingly solved this one in only a few minutes, whereas the original Genesis/Megadrive level took me much longer but only because I couldn't get up the middle area with just one builder.

Bonus 4 - Desert of Molten Rocks Another builders only level, and while it looks confusing and intimidating it's really not that bad. The only wonky part is the builder where the flamethrower is, as I thought the builder himself would get burned and therefore wouldn't connect with the wall. In addition, I thought some of the ones who did turn around wouldn't make it to the exit on time, but I didn't realize that the wall is too high for them to get over if you place the builder like that so it looks like he would die to it but doesn't.

All rightie, I have now finished all of Icho's NL level pack conversions now that I have gone through DoveLems but on NL. This was definitely a nice trip down memory lane, even if I have forgotten a lot of the levels, as well as great coming back to easier levels again after a long time. The pack does get challenging near the very end, like most easy/medium packs do, but these hard levels are very satisfying to figure out, especially with them more patched up than they are on Lemmini.

Thanks for this conversion Icho, you did great here! Now let's see if I backrouted any of these and therefore a change/update is needed. I'm guessing maybe one or a few

[Pieuw]

Well done Kaywhyn! As always your feedback is super interesting to read and brings back lots of memories.

Maso 17 - The Crossing (Part III) Hmm, I wonder where the other two such levels are. I honestly can't recall right now.

I can answer this.
Two levels from Pimolems, Hugs & Kisses and Candelabrum, were originally called something like The Crossing and The Crossing part 2 respectively. Dodochacalo also made his version of the crossing

[IchoTolot]

V 3.8 is out!

Backroute fixes based on kaywhyn's replays:

- 3 14 (added steel and a trap)
- 3 18 (changed direction of a OWW)
- 3 30 (added an ice blower)

- 4 16 (added a OWW)
- 4 25 (extended a OWW)
- 4 26 (2 builders are now a pick-up)

[kaywhyn]

Here are my resolves Unfortunately, I still managed to backroute all 3 of the updated Devilish levels and a Maso level, 5 16 For 3 18, seems that basher needs to be a pickup too!

5 25 and 5 26 should be acceptable/intended now!

[IchoTolot]

It seems like you partly attached the wrong replays.

The ones for 3 14 and 3 18 are still failing and seem the be the old ones.

Maybe just attach the updated ones in an extra zip so that there is no switch up.

[kaywhyn]

I am a dummy. I put in the updated replays and seems that I accidentally removed the new 3 14 and 3 18 instead of the old ones!

Reattached the zip with the correct replays in the previous post!

[IchoTolot]

V 3.9 is out!

Backroute fixes based on kaywhyn's replays:

- 3 14 (added steel)
- 3 18 (removed some terrain)
- 3 30 (1 builder is now a pick-up)

- 4 16 (changed a OWW)

[kaywhyn]

Another round of resolves and these all look good now! 3 30 is different from Dodochacalo's but looks to be quite an acceptable alternative

[IchoTolot]

Yeah, that looks better now.

I also would call 3 30 acceptable as they do make the big 8.