Author Topic: What skills can't you live without?  (Read 46161 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2188
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
What skills can't you live without?
« on: September 13, 2009, 04:00:30 am »
Since we started reviewing the Tame levels, it crossed my mind that there is only one skill that you're forced to use throughout all of Tame, that you can't pass the level without using - the builder on Tame 13. Aside from this one builder, you can avoid using each type of skill on every level, by using different skills instead. So, I would like to know: how does this situation look across the whole game?

Now for a (slightly technical) definition: The set of "skills you can't live without" on a level is the set of skills that is common to all solutions to the level - without using every skill in this set, you can't possibly beat the level.

EDIT: We now have a score for every level. Well done guys! :thumbsup:

(Total skill counts in brackets.)


Lemmings

Fun
1: 1 digger
2: 1 floater
3: 3 blockers
4: 10 climbers, 1 miner
5: 3 bashers
6: 1 bomber
7: 2 builders
13: 3 diggers
15: 2 builders
16: 4 builders
18: 5 bombers
19: 2 builders
20: 1 builder
28: 4 builders
All others: none.
Total: 10 climbers, 1 floater, 6 bombers, 3 blockers, 15 builders, 3 bashers, 1 miner, 4 diggers. (43, 1.43 per level)

Tricky
1: 1 builder
2: 5 diggers
3: 1 builder
4: 5 builders
5: 3 builders
6: 2 builders
7: 7 builders
8: 8 builders
10: 4 builders
12: 1 floater
13: 3 builders
14: 4 builders
15: 3 bombers
16: 4 bombers
17: 2 bombers
18: 1 digger
19: 1 climber, 1 builder
21: 3 builders
23: 1 climber, 1 builder, 1 basher
24: 2 builders
25: 2 builders
27: 1 builder
28: 1 builder
All others: none.
Total: 2 climbers, 1 floater, 9 bombers, 49 builders, 1 basher, 6 diggers. (68, 2.3 per level)

Taxing
1: 6 builders, 1 basher
2: 1 builder
3: 6 builders
4: 1 builder
5: 3 builders
6: 1 basher
7: 1 bomber, 5 builders, 1 basher
8: 3 builders, 3 bashers
10: 2 builders
11: 7 builders
12: 2 builders
13: 1 basher, 1 miner
14: 17 builders
16: 7 builders
18: 1 builder
19: 5 bombers
22: 1 builder
23: 12 builders
24: 5 builders
25: 3 builders
26: 5 builders
27: 6 builders
28: 1 floater, 3 builders
29: 1 builder
30: 7 diggers
All others: none.
Total: 1 floater, 6 bombers, 97 builders, 7 bashers, 1 miner, 7 diggers. (119, 3.97 per level)

Mayhem
1: 1 floater, 15 builders
2: 6 builders
3: 1 builder, 1 miner, 1 digger
4: none
5: 4 blockers, 5 builders
6: 6 builders
7: 3 builders, 3 bashers, 3 diggers
8: 3 builders
9: 5 builders, 1 basher
10: 1 floater, 5 builders
11: 9 diggers
12: 1 builder
13: 1 builder
14: 1 builder
15: 4 builders
16: 1 basher, 1 digger
17: 1 builder
18: 3 builders
19: 3 bombers, 7 builders
20: 2 climbers, 1 blocker, 1 builder, 1 basher, 2 miners
21: 21 floaters, 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
22: 6 builders
23: 4 builders, 1 basher
24: 3 bashers
25: 5 builders
26: 2 bombers
27: 2 bashers, 1 digger
28: 5 builders, 1 basher
29: 3 blockers, 10 builders, 1 digger
30: 8 builders
Total: 2 climbers, 23 floaters, 5 bombers, 8 blockers, 109 builders, 14 bashers, 3 miners, 17 diggers. (181, 6.03 per level)

Total for Lemmings: 14 climbers, 26 floaters, 26 bombers, 11 blockers, 270 builders, 25 bashers, 5 miners, 34 diggers. (411, 3.43 per level)


Oh No! More Lemmings

Tame
13: 1 builder
All others: none.
Total: 1 builder. (1, 0.05 per level)

Crazy
1: 1 blocker
2: 3 builders, 1 digger
3: 2 bombers
4: 4 builders
5: 7 builders
6: 1 climber, 5 builders, 2 diggers
7: 1 climber, 1 floater, 3 builders, 1 basher
8: 2 builders
9: none
10: 7 builders, 1 basher
11: 1 builder
12: 2 builders, 1 basher
13: 1 miner, 1 digger
14: 2 blockers, 4 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger
15: 2 builders
16: 1 builder
17: 3 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger
18: 2 builders
19: 1 builder
20: 5 builders
Total: 2 climbers, 1 floater, 2 bombers, 3 blockers, 52 builders, 7 bashers, 1 miner, 6 diggers. (74, 3.70 per level)

Wild
1: none
2: 5 builders
3: 6 builders
4: 6 builders, 1 basher
5: 2 bombers, 3 builders
6: 1 builder
7: 3 builders, 2 bashers
8: 10 climbers, 10 floaters, 1 builder
9: none
10: 3 builders, 1 basher
11: 2 builders
12: 2 builders, 1 basher
13: 2 climbers, 2 bombers, 2 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner
14: none
15: 1 builder, 1 basher
16: 1 climber, 4 builders
17: 2 builders
18: 2 bombers, 3 builders
19: 7 builders
20: 2 builders
Total: 13 climbers, 10 floaters, 6 bombers, 53 builders, 7 bashers, 1 miner. (90, 4.50 per level)

Wicked
1: 1 bomber
2: 5 builders, 1 miner, 5 diggers
3: 3 builders
4: 3 builders
5: 1 builder, 1 basher, 1 digger
6: none
7: 1 blocker, 4 bombers
8: 1 climber, 4 bombers, 1 builder
9: 9 builders
10: 1 blocker, 7 builders
11: 2 builders
12: 2 blockers, 6 builders, 1 miner
13: 7 builders
14:  none
15: 1 floater, 6 builders
16: 1 bomber, 1 builder
17: 4 builders
18: 2 builders
19: 5 builders, 1 basher
20: 1 builder
Total: 1 climber, 1 floater, 10 bombers, 4 blockers, 63 builders, 2 bashers, 2 miners, 6 diggers. (89, 4.45 per level)

Havoc
1: 5 builders
2: 9 builders, 1 digger
3: 1 builder, 1 basher
4: 1 builder, 1 basher, 1 digger
5: 2 climbers, 2 bashers, 2 miners
6: 1 miner
7: 4 builders
8: 1 climber, 4 builders, 3 miners
9: 13 climbers, 5 builders, 3 miners
10: 1 builder
11: 8 builders
12: 9 builders
13: 3 builders
14: 1 climber, 4 builders, 4 bashers, 2 diggers
15: 5 builders
16: 3 builders
17: 2 builders
18: 8 builders, 1 digger
19: 2 builders, 1 basher
20: 1 climber, 1 floater, 7 bombers, 2 miners
Total: 18 climbers, 1 floater, 7 bombers, 74 builders, 9 bashers, 11 miners, 5 diggers. (125, 6.25 per level)

Total for ONML: 34 climbers, 13 floaters, 25 bombers, 7 blockers, 243 builders, 25 bashers, 15 miners, 17 diggers. (379, 3.79 per level)


Holiday Lemmings

Xmas 91 (first two levels only)
1: none
2: 1 builder
Total: 1 builder. (1, 0.50 per level)

Xmas 92
1: 1 basher
2: none
3: 7 builders
4: 1 climber, 9 builders, 3 diggers
Total: 1 climber, 16 builders, 1 basher, 3 diggers. (21, 5.25 per level)

Flurry
8: 5 builders, 1 basher
10: 3 builders
13: 2 builders
14: 1 builder
15: 1 builder
16: 2 builders, 1 basher
All others: none.
Total: 14 builders, 2 bashers. (16, 1.00 per level)

Blitz
1: 3 builders
2: 9 builders
3: 1 digger
4: 1 basher, 1 builder
5: 6 builders
6: none
7: 1 builder
8: 2 builders, 1 basher
9: 8 builders
10: 2 builders
11: 8 builders
12: 1 bomber, 1 digger
13: 8 builders
14: none
15: 8 climbers, 1 floater, 1 bomber, 1 basher
16: 1 bomber, 1 builder, 1 basher
Total: 8 climbers, 1 floater, 3 bombers, 49 builders, 4 bashers, 2 diggers. (67, 4.19 per level)

Frost
6: 1 blocker, 4 builders
7: 5 builders
9: 2 builders
10: 1 builder, 1 basher, 2 diggers
11: 1 builder
12: 3 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger
13: 1 builder
14: 3 builders, 1 basher
15: 1 builder, 2 bashers
16: 3 builders
All others: none.
Total: 1 blocker, 24 builders, 6 bashers, 3 diggers. (34, 2.12 per level)

Hail
1: 1 climber, 1 floater, 2 builders, 1 basher
2: 3 bombers
3: 9 builders
4: none
5: 6 floaters, 6 builders
6: none
7: 14 builders
8: 5 builders, 1 basher
9: 9 builders, 1 basher
10: 2 builders
11: 3 builders, 2 miners, 1 digger
12: 6 builders
13: 1 builder, 2 bashers, 2 diggers
14: 10 builders
15: 1 basher, 1 digger
16: 10 floaters, 1 builder
Total: 1 climber, 17 floaters, 3 bombers, 68 builders, 6 bashers, 2 miners, 4 diggers. (101, 6.31 per level)

Total for Holiday Lemmings: 10 climbers, 18 floaters, 6 bombers, 1 blocker, 172 builders, 19 bashers, 2 miners, 12 diggers. (240, 3.43 per level)


GRAND TOTAL: 58 climbers, 57 floaters, 57 bombers, 19 blockers, 685 builders, 69 bashers, 22 miners, 63 diggers. (1030, 3.58 per level)

Lemmings PSP

1: 1 climber
2: 1 climber, 1 floater
3: 1 climber, 1 basher
4: 2 bombers, 2 blockers
5: 3 builders, 2 miners
6: 1 builder, 4 bashers
7: 4 builders, 3 bashers
8: 5 climbers, 2 builders
9: 5 builders
10: 2 builders, 2 bashers
11: 2 bashers, 1 digger
12: 2 bashers
13: 5 bombers
14: 5 climbers, 1 builder, 1 basher, 1 miner
15: 1 basher, 1 digger
16: 1 builder, 1 basher
17: 2 builders
18: 1 climber, 4 builders, 2 bashers
19: 7 builders
20: 2 builders
21: 2 climbers, 1 blocker, 2 builders, 3 bashers
22: 6 builders, 2 miners
23: 7 builders, 3 bashers
24: 2 climbers, 3 bashers, 2 diggers
25: 3 diggers
26: 1 blocker, 2 bashers
27: 4 builders
28: 1 floater, 3 builders
29: 3 builders, 2 bashers
30: 2 builders
31: 5 builders
32: 1 builder
33: 1 floater, 5 builders, 1 basher
34: 10 climbers, 9 blockers
35: 1 builder, 1 miner, 1 digger
36: 1 builder, 1 digger
Total: 28 climbers, 2 floaters, 7 bombers, 4 blockers, 72 builders, 33 bashers, 5 miners, 7 diggers (158, 4.39 per level)


Covox Lemmings

Fun 1: none
Fun 2: 1 builder
Tricky 1: 1 builder
Tricky 2: 21 climbers, 1 bomber, 2 builders
Taxing 1: 7 builders, 1 basher
Taxing 2: 7 builders
Mayhem 1: 2 builders
Mayhem 2 : none
Total: 21 climbers, 1 bomber, 20 builders, 1 basher (43, 5.375 per level)


Prima Publishing Lemmings

Fun 1: none
Fun 2: 1 climber, 1 blocker, 1 builder, 1 miner, 1 digger
Fun 3: none
Fun 4: 2 builders, 1 basher
Tricky 1: 1 builder
Tricky 2: 6 bombers
Tricky 3: 1 builder
Tricky 4: 1 digger
Taxing 1: 11 builders
Taxing 2: none
Taxing 3: 2 bashers, 1 digger
Taxing 4: 2 blockers, 2 builders
Mayhem 1: 1 digger
Mayhem 2: 5 builders
Mayhem 3: 1 blocker, 4 builders
Mayhem 4: 7 builders


3D Lemmings

Fun
1: 1 turner
2: 2 diggers
3: 3 builders
4: 1 turner, 2 diggers
5: 7 turners
6: 4 bombers
7: 1 bomber, 1 basher, 2 climbers
8: 2 turners, 1 builder
9: 5 turners
10: 2 builders
11: 2 blockers, 4 turners
12: 1 turner, 5 bombers
13: 13 turners, 2 builders, 20 floaters
14: 6 turners
15: 4 turners, 1 basher
16: 4 turners, 1 builder, 1 digger
17: 1 blocker, 2 bashers, 1 floater
18: 4 turners, 8 miners
19: 2 turners
20: 4 turners, 1 builder

Tricky
1: 2 turners, 8 climbers
2: 2 blockers
3: 1 bomber, 2 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 climber, 1 floater
4: 3 turners, 2 builders, 1 miner
5: 1 turner, 2 bombers
6: 2 blockers, 5 turners, 2 builders, 1 basher
7: 2 turners, 3 builders
8: None
9: 4 turners
10: 5 turners, 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
11: 14 turners, 1 builder, 2 bashers
12: 5 turners, 11 builders
13: 6 turners
14: 3 turners, 1 builder
15: 2 turners, 2 builders, 1 digger
16: 3 turners, 1 builder, 2 bashers
17: 4 turners, 1 bomber, 1 climber
18: 3 bashers, 1 digger, 1 climber
19: 2 turners, 1 builder
20: 5 turners, 1 builder, 1 digger

Taxing
1: 6 turners
2: 1 blocker, 5 turners, 2 bashers, 3 climbers
3: 4 bombers, 4 builders, 4 bashers
4: 1 turner, 5 builders, 4 bashers
5: 5 turners, 1 builder
6: 2 turners, 1 builder, 1 floater
7: 5 turners, 1 builder, 3 bashers, 1 digger
8: 7 turners, 4 bashers
9: 6 turners
10: 1 turner
11: 3 turners
12: 4 builders, 1 basher
13: 1 blocker, 2 turners, 1 builder
14: 5 turners
15: None
16: 1 turner, 1 bomber, 1 builder
17: None
18: 4 turners, 3 bombers
19: 1 builder, 2 miners
20: 1 turner, 3 builders

Mayhem
1: 2 bombers, 1 builder, 2 diggers, 2 climbers
2: 3 blockers, 2 turners, 1 bomber, 3 bashers, 4 climbers
3: 3 turners
4: 2 turners, 2 builders, 2 bashers, 1 climber, 1 floater
5: 3 bombers, 1 builder, 1 digger, 5 floaters
6: 7 turners
7: None
8: 1 turner, 4 builders
9: 1 turner, 1 builder, 1 digger, 2 climbers
10: 1 turner, 1 builder
11: 2 turners, 1 builder, 1 basher
12: 4 turners
13: 15 turners
14: 2 turners, 3 builders
15: 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
16: 1 blocker, 5 turners, 4 builders, 1 miner, 1 digger, 6 climbers
17: 2 bashers
18: 7 builders
19: 1 bomber, 1 builder, 3 bashers, 2 climbers
20: 1 turner
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 02:22:47 am by namida »

Offline GuyPerfect

  • Posts: 363
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2009, 04:05:56 am »
Err, so you're saying... "Regardless of the solution, you need at least X of skill Y to complete the stage"?

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2188
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2009, 04:13:02 am »
Indeed. :)

I have a strange feeling the vast majority of the final total will be builders...

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 4940
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2009, 04:16:37 am »
Considering that the builder is the only skill capable of adding terrain pixels to the level, yeah, it would be a forgone conclusion that there'll be a lot of builders in the final total.

Anyway, Wild 9 is another level with "none", courtesy of the nuke glitch.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 9212
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2009, 04:30:42 am »
Fun 8 - 12: None
Fun 13: Diggers (see min skills thread for amount, I don't remember)
Fun 14: None
Fun 15: 6 Builders
Fun 16: Builders (see min skills thread for amount)
Fun 17: None
Fun 18: 5 Bombers
Fun 19: 4 Builders
Fun 20: 2 Builders
Fun 21-22: None
Fun 23: Possibly builders and/or bashers?
Fun 24-25: None
Fun 26: 2 builders
Fun 27: None
Fun 28: 5 builders
Fun 29: Maybe bashers?
Fun 30: None
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2188
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2009, 04:58:56 am »
Fun 13: Diggers (see min skills thread for amount, I don't remember)
That's 3 diggers.

Quote
Fun 16: Builders (see min skills thread for amount)
6. Although it might be possible to cut that using Tame 20 and the nuke glitch.

Quote
Fun 19: 4 Builders
Again, the Tame 20 glitch might come into play here and reduce that.

Quote
Fun 20: 2 Builders
I'm assuming DOS version here. This means no water, and you don't have to build to the exit platform.

Quote
Fun 23: Possibly builders and/or bashers?
I think it might be possible to eliminate each (in separate solutions) using multiple Tame 20's.

Quote
Fun 26: 2 builders
Possible with none. This was done in my old challenge thread.

Quote
Fun 29: Maybe bashers?
There's plenty enough skills to just mine and build across.

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 895
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2009, 06:19:08 am »
you can beat fun 29 sans builders?

if that's the case then my head just exploded and I quit Lemmings forever
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline Minim

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 1442
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2009, 06:38:37 am »
Here're the essentials of first few levels of tricky

1: 1 builder
2: 5 diggers
3: 1 builder
4: 5 builders
5: 3 builders
6: 2 builders
7: 7 builders

you can beat fun 29 sans builders?

Well, I assume there are no gaps to cross so don't be too surprised. And don't be silly like "quit lemmings forever" because you will come back eventually ;)
The user formerly known as minimac

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 9212
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2009, 07:22:45 am »
No builders Fun 29 is one of the hardest challenges ever, but it's doable.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2188
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2009, 07:24:16 am »
you can beat fun 29 sans builders?

if that's the case then my head just exploded and I quit Lemmings forever

It's not too dissimilar to geoo's Tame 13 effort actually. The difference here is they give you a staircase to work with - albeit not a very nice one (since the lemmings won't climb it unless you make holes in it). Plus it takes a bit of steel-glitching.

But yes, it's possible - and with 100%. But I guess you're still gonna need a replay before you're convinced, so here it is. (Don't worry about the speed-digging bit at the start - you could just use a blocker and dig it out. I can't be bothered going back to change it...)

Offline LemSteven

  • Posts: 497
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2009, 07:48:40 am »
Here's what I know for the first few Tricky levels off the top of my head:

1:  1 builder
2:  Diggers (I'm not sure how many)
3:  1 builder
4:  5 builders
5:  3 builders
6:  2 builders
7:  7 builders
8:  10 builders
9:  None
10:  4 builders

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 9212
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2009, 08:14:30 am »
Tricky 11
We know from the harder version that it can be done using only climbers, bombers and builders.  Thus meaning any solution that doesn't use any of those is fine.

Attached replay does use climbers, but doesn't use bombers or builders.

I think it's pretty commonly known this level can be done without climbers anyway, with a standard build-and-bash solution.

Therefore,

Tricky 11: None

Tricky 12
By direct drop, you can beat it with only one floater and then builders. Attached  is a replay that uses all 50 floaters (therefore, 1 floater is required - it's pretty obvious that you need at least one of them), as well as climbers, blockers, bashers and diggers - but no builders. Therefore, the minimum for this is:

Tricky 12: 1 floater

Tricky 13
Either clam or CC said there's a solution that uses only 5 builders - fewer than this is impossible. Since the level can be beaten with only builders, the result is obviously:

Tricky 13: 5 builders

Tricky 14
Someone else can get this one.

Tricky 15
Very obvious - 3 bombers.

Tricky 16
1 Basher, and however many bombers are required when using the miner. You can do it without the miner, using more bombers, so the miner isn't needed.

Tricky 17
2 Bombers.

Tricky 18
1 Digger, 1 Bomber. You can  either make the second lemming float, or make him build to delay him, therefore, neither is essential.

Tricky 19
If I'm not mistake, 1 climber, 1 builder, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 digger. I suspect it's possible without any floaters, but I'll wait for someone else to confirm this.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Minim

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 1442
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2009, 08:21:08 am »
Here's what I know for the first few Tricky levels off the top of my head:

I've already copied that! :P with an exception for Levels 8, 9, 10.
The user formerly known as minimac

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2188
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2009, 08:36:59 am »
Tricky 13
Either clam or CC said there's a solution that uses only 5 builders - fewer than this is impossible. Since the level can be beaten with only builders, the result is obviously:

Tricky 13: 5 builders

Thanks to our friend the nuke glitch, you can save 20/26 (76% - more than the 70% required) with 4 builders.


Tricky 16
1 Basher, and however many bombers are required when using the miner. You can do it without the miner, using more bombers, so the miner isn't needed.

I just got an idea that this might be possible without the basher. I'll try it now and let you know how it turns out.

EDIT: Success! Tricky 16 completed without the basher. Replay attached.

By the way, the minimum number of bombers is 4 - as reflected by the max % record of 92%.

Offline Proxima

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 3408
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2009, 08:47:06 am »
Tricky 13
Either clam or CC said there's a solution that uses only 5 builders - fewer than this is impossible. Since the level can be beaten with only builders, the result is obviously:

It was ccexplore and it was for the harder version. Which, incidentally, also gives you enough builders to complete the level with builders alone, so the result is the same for that level.

This topic is progressing too fast for me to be of much help, so I'll just fill in a few obvious ones among the later levels to save you the time ;)

Mayhem 16 - 1 basher, 1 digger
Mayhem 20 - 2 climbers, 1 blocker, 1 builder, 1 basher, 2 miners
Mayhem 21 - 1 climber, 21 floaters, 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
Mayhem 24 - 3 bashers
Mayhem 27 - 2 bashers, 1 digger

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 9212
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2009, 08:48:03 am »
Tricky  20 is a complex one.... with a rather nice result.

In the Single Skill Per Lemming topic, cc's solution didn't use climbers nor floaters.  Those two are off the list.
No bombers is obvious, you can use the standard solution and build over the blocker instead of bombing him.
No blockers, you can dig and build to turn your climber around. (Dealing with the left side on this should be fairly obvious)
No builders is... well, pretty much the standard solution.
No bashers, mine the first obstacle, and after turning around past the one way wall, climb back up, dig on the edge, and mine.
The standard solution  does not use miners or diggers.

So,

Tricky 20: None.



Also, about ditching the basher on Tricky 16 - I think I know what you're thinking of, and trust me, I've done that idea to death. It doesn't seem to be possible.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Proxima

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 3408
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2009, 08:51:40 am »
Tricky 19
If I'm not mistake, 1 climber, 1 builder, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 digger. I suspect it's possible without any floaters, but I'll wait for someone else to confirm this.

Tricky 19: 1 climber, 1 builder, 1 digger (sorry!) Obviously it can't be done with these skills alone, but these are the only skills common to all the solutions.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 9212
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2009, 08:53:07 am »
Tricky 21
You can solve it with bashers and builders, or miners and builders. To hold back the crowd, you can use either diggers, miners or blockers. So the only thing essential is the builders. The fewest I can do is 3.

Tricky 21: 3 Builders

Tricky 22
It can be solved  bombers-only. It can also be solved builders-only.

Tricky 22: None

Tricky 23
As far as I'm aware, there's no solution that doesn't use all three destruction skills, the builder, and one climber...  >_>
(By the way, I just noticed that this and Tricky 19 have the same skill set!)
EDIT: Or maybe not. It can be done without the miner.  Thanks Proxima.

Tricky 23: 1 Climber, 1 Builder, 1 Basher, 1 Digger

Tricky 24
As far as I can tell, at least one blocker is needed for crowd control. You also need two builders to reach the exit.

Tricky 24: 1 Blocker, 2 Builders

Tricky 25
There's a no-floater solution out there.  When you get to the far right column, you have a choice of either bashing or mining through it. All solutions use at least two builders, however. So...

Tricky 25: 2 Builders

Tricky 26
If I remember correctly, there's an over-the-top solution which shouldn't need bashers (you'd only need to create holes in the bridge maybe, and a miner or digger can do that). You can do it without builders by bashing right next to the post, then making the next lemming mine then immediately bash when he's just about to turn around.

Tricky 26: None

Tricky 27
I'll let someone else get this one.

Tricky 28
It can be done with only builders, so all other skills are non-essential. It seems the minimum amount of builders you can do it with is 2, so...

Tricky 28: 2 Builders

Tricky 29
It can be beaten with only bashers. It can also be beaten without bashers. Replay attached. Therefore,

Tricky 29: None

Tricky 30
You can do it with blockers,  builders and miners. (Block off the crowd, mine and build across the two lower sections)
You can do it with climbers and miners. (This one is pretty obvious)
The only common skill between these two solutions is miners. Attached is a replay that doesn't use miners.

Tricky 30: None
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Proxima

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 3408
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2009, 09:06:18 am »
Tricky 23
As far as I'm aware, there's no solution that doesn't use all three destruction skills, the builder, and one climber...  >_>
(By the way, I just noticed that this and Tricky 19 have the same skill set!)

Tricky 23: 1 Climber, 1 Builder, 1 Basher, 1 Miner, 1 Digger

No, the miner is not necessary.

Offline Proxima

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 3408
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2009, 09:11:48 am »
Tricky 26
If I remember correctly, there's an over-the-top solution which shouldn't need bashers (you'd only need to create holes in the bridge maybe, and a miner or digger can do that). You can do it without builders by bashing right next to the post, then making the next lemming mine then immediately bash when he's just about to turn around.

Tricky 26: None

A faster solution without bashers:
Quote
Make a pass-through blocker, build one bridge-length before the pillar, mine when you reach it, make the miner build on the other side if necessary. Once all lemmings are facing right, there will still be lemmings falling from the trapdoor; make one dig then build to release the blocker.

And another neat solution without builders:
Quote
Make a pass-through blocker, bash the pillar, release the blocker as before except (obviously) you bash rather than build to stop the digger.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2188
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2009, 09:14:45 am »
Also, about ditching the basher on Tricky 16 - I think I know what you're thinking of, and trust me, I've done that idea to death. It doesn't seem to be possible.

I did it ;)

The replay is attached to my post on the previous page where I brought this up (edited in after you quoted it)
EDIT: wait, you didn't quote it at all. The replay is here.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2188
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2009, 09:16:39 am »
Wow, this has exploded all of a sudden... I'll try to keep up. :XD:


Tricky 19: 1 climber, 1 builder, 1 basher. Obviously it can't be done with these skills alone, but these are the only skills common to all the solutions.

It's quite easy to do without the basher. As for the miner and digger, I'm not sure. I'll have another look.
EDIT: OK, I found a no miner solution. That's a new one on me :)

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 9212
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2009, 09:25:21 am »
Crap, you beat me to it. >_>
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Proxima

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 3408
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2009, 09:26:06 am »
Oh  ;P I put it that way round first (including the digger but not the basher) then confused myself and thought "That can't be right!" and changed it.

The solution without the miner is the way I first solved the level -- same for Tricky 23. I guess if you happen to discover the reverse-miner trick to begin with it's harder to make yourself think about alternatives :P

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2188
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2009, 09:35:58 am »
Oh... so you haven't found a no-digger solution. Ok then.

Offline Proxima

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 3408
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2009, 09:41:29 am »
I've been trying Fun 23, though without the Tame 20 glitch. (I know what it is, just not how to pull it off.) Anyway, it can be done with just one builder, or with just one basher.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2188
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2009, 09:50:06 am »
Tricky 24
As far as I can tell, at least one blocker is needed for crowd control. You also need two builders to reach the exit.

Tricky 24: 1 Blocker, 2 Builders

I'm fairly sure you can eliminate the blocker here. What you have to do is dig down next to two builder's bridges, one on each side (including the bridge to the exit). You can get 3 pixels of height from the builder and 4 from the digger, which is just enough to make the lemmings turn back. And here's the clever bit - when each digger has dug down exactly 4 pixels, make it mine and then use the miner trick with a bomber. And there you have it - a no-blockers holding pen. 8) The only question is whether you can do this without losing too many lemmings - to find out I'll have to try it for real.  :sick:

EDIT: This turned out to be easier than expected - just tell the digger to mine right when it's about to explode :P

Replay attached.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2188
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2009, 09:59:31 am »
Tricky 28
It can be done with only builders, so all other skills are non-essential. It seems the minimum amount of builders you can do it with is 2, so...

Tricky 28: 2 Builders

Possible with 1 builder (start under the platform and block it while it builds) due to the misplaced steel area - you can just bomb this away. Even if this was steeled, you could steel-glitch it out anyway. :D

Offline Proxima

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 3408
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2009, 10:13:39 am »
Crazy 1: 1 blocker
Crazy 2: 1 climber, 3 builders, 1 digger
Crazy 3: 2 bombers
Crazy 4: 6 builders
Crazy 5: 7 builders
Crazy 6: 1 climber, 2 diggers, 5 builders
Crazy 7: 1 climber, 1 floater, 3 builders, 1 basher
Crazy 11: 1 builder :P

Offline Proxima

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 3408
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2009, 10:19:00 am »
EDIT: Tricky 27: 2 builders. All other skills can be avoided.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 9212
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2009, 10:23:00 am »
...couldn't you mine it? And then seperately avoid the climber by going underneath it?
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 4940
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2009, 10:23:11 am »
Let's take a quick step back to Fun 15, which can be done with 4 builders (plus other skills).  (zip file includes Lemmix replay and a screenshot of the final result)

[edit: forgot to add screenshot to zip file, fixed now]

Offline Proxima

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 3408
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2009, 10:39:42 am »
...couldn't you mine it? And then seperately avoid the climber by going underneath it?

Oh yes, I was thinking the miner would go too low, but you can release the crowd by digging into the mine tunnel. As for avoiding the climber, the terrain is higher on the other side but you can bash all the way out and get back up with builders and a blocker  :thumbsup:

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 4940
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2009, 12:32:58 pm »
Tricky 23EDIT: Or maybe not. It can be done without the miner.  Thanks Proxima.

Tricky 23: 1 Climber, 1 Builder, 1 Basher, 1 Digger

I finally got a solution that doesn't use the digger, so Tricky 23 is now 1 climber, 1 builder, 1 basher.

Replay attached.  No screenshots because it won't help.  Below's an English explanation:

Quote from: Spoiler
The idea is to build from the pit, then bash at the top of the builder's bridge.  But before the bridge connects with the pit's wall, send a climber up, and have him mine shortly after bashing begins, starting about 3-5 pixels right of the edge of the basher's first stroke.  Done right and this will eventually stop the basher, and also allow the majority of the crowd to escape before the mining tunnel becomes too deep.

My first promising attempt uses the 2nd lemming that lands on the pit to build, and assign the climber some time between the builder laying the 10th and 11th build brick.  It saves 41, with 8 lemmings from the crowd didn't make it.  Then using Lemmix's text replay files, I find out which 8 they are, and I re-did my solution assigning climbers to those lemmings, so they can be saved as well.
 

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 4940
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2009, 01:59:01 pm »
Quote
Fun 23: Possibly builders and/or bashers?
I think it might be possible to eliminate each (in separate solutions) using multiple Tame 20's.

Confirmed.  And actually you just need to use Tame 20 once in each solution.  And since the level can be solved with only bashers and builders, the final result for Fun 23 is "none".

Offline Minim

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 1442
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2009, 03:55:06 pm »
Fun 16 can be done with 5 builders, replay attached.
The user formerly known as minimac

Offline Pooty

  • Posts: 324
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2009, 04:22:07 pm »
Nice one, minimac. That was really good. :thumbsup:

And ccexplore, I saw your screenshots first before your solution. I can't remember the last time i've been so confused. They are really good solutions there. Top stuff. :thumbsup:
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline LemSteven

  • Posts: 497
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2009, 08:33:21 pm »
I've been searching for a way to get Fun 16 down to four builders, but so far I've had no luck.  A simple "Tame 20 glitch + nuke glitch" solution looks like it comes a few lemmings short, and with the exit right on top of that pillar, there's very little space to create a path upwards for the crowd.  But I wouldn't rule out some sort of "Tame 13-like" solution...

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2188
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2009, 09:32:32 pm »
Let's take a quick step back to Fun 15, which can be done with 4 builders (plus other skills).  (zip file includes Lemmix replay and a screenshot of the final result)

[edit: forgot to add screenshot to zip file, fixed now]

With a bit of lateral (or is that vertical?) thinking, this level can be done with just 2 builders. And with 100% saved 8)


Fun 16 can be done with 5 builders, replay attached.

Expertly done. I must say, I'm impressed :thumbsup:


EDIT: Tricky 27: 2 builders. All other skills can be avoided.

In the challenge thread (on this forum, I think) I did this with one builder.

Offline LemSteven

  • Posts: 497
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2009, 09:58:59 pm »
Update on Fun 16:

Four builders is now verified!!!   8)

I ended up getting the Tame 20 glitch + nuke glitch combination to work by optimizing the method.

It takes four builders to reach the platform under the exit, where the Tame 20 glitch is executed.  The trouble is you only have 20 climbers, which means you can only save 20 lemmings using the Tame 20 glitch.  This means you have to nuke before the 33rd lemming comes out of the entrance in order to get the required percentage.  But of course, you can't nuke until your 20 climbers are within five seconds of the exit.  With the given layout of the level, by the time you get 20 lemmings trapped in the pillar and release the blocker, there are already 29 or 30 lemmings out, and the climbers won't reach the exit in time.

Quote from: Spoiler
The key is to bash through the four spikes so that the lemmings don't waste precious time climbing up and down each one of them.  This allows the blocker to be freed a tad earlier.  If you assign your 20 climbers in rapid succession and then nuke right before the 33rd lemming comes out, the last climber will reach the exit just before he explodes.

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 4940
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2009, 12:15:45 am »
Tricky 13 only needs 3 builders.  Seems like a bunch of people overlooked something.

Quote from: Spoiler/hint
Use various steel destruction glitches to dramatically lower the right edge of the steel block you land on from the trapdoor.
 

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 4940
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2009, 03:02:37 am »
Tricky
8: 10 builders

Another overlooked one.  It's 9 builders.  You definitely don't need a replay for this. ;)

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1329
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2009, 03:09:43 am »
Fun 19 doesn't need 4 builders, it can be done with 2:

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2188
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2009, 03:59:23 am »
Tricky
8: 10 builders

Another overlooked one.  It's 9 builders.  You definitely don't need a replay for this. ;)


Ah - you've missed something too. It might take a replay to convince you that it's possible with just 8 builders :P


I'll suggest a starting point of 8 builders for Tricky 14, just so we can get a total there (which I will add in shortly).

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 4940
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2009, 04:14:46 am »
Ah - you've missed something too. It might take a replay to convince you that it's possible with just 8 builders :P

Very nice. :thumbsup: I actually started with a solution where I used a blocker to allow everyone to pass through the thin wall on the left at the bottom, but I had to use an extra builder to build over the blocker so it was 9 not 8, and 9 of course can be done quite normally.  I thought about the location you used in your solution for blocking but again, I forgot that I could just compress the crowd instead of building over the blocker.

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 895
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2009, 05:12:24 am »
Holy what the

yea I bow out of all challenges like this in the future; these glitches are getting too advanced for me to follow  :-[
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 9212
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2009, 05:33:45 am »
That doesnt' mean you can't try the non-glitch ones. For example, Tricky 30 didn't need glitches to show it doesn't require any specific skill - while still being challenging (from a strategic point of view, not an execution one) at the same time to acheive without miners.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Proxima

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 3408
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2009, 11:41:40 am »
I've been trying Mayhem 3. The standard solution doesn't use the bomber and blocker, and that you can avoid the climber and floater is well-known. You could avoid the basher if you had more time :( but the most I can save is 86%.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 9212
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2009, 12:35:38 pm »
86%? I can easily manage 96% with no basher. :P (With the last lemming being lost to time, not dying.) Or was that a typo?

100%, is an entirely different issue.

Also - define "standard". It was a LONG time until I found a no-blocker solution. (Attached is a replay of how I used to beat the level.)
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Proxima

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 3408
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2009, 12:55:09 pm »
Remember, I can't view replays....

I can't define "standard" in general, but the standard solution to Mayhem 3 is the one shown here. It's clear that you weren't meant to use a blocker because the fact that blockers can be released is meant to be still a surprise on Mayhem 20 (as indeed it was for me).

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 9212
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2009, 12:55:59 pm »
Mayhem 3 completed with no bashers. :)

Will post details and pics in a sec...
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 9212
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2009, 01:10:58 pm »
Okay, here's how it's done:

1) First lemming mines as shown in picture #1. Position must be pixel precise, so that a positioning glitch causes him to fall all the way down but the others to land on the middle platform as shown in picture #2.
2) Make the first lemming a floater.
3) Second lemming (first lemming on middle platform) digs about half way up the slope, third lemming blocks right behind him, as shown in picture #3 (if the third lemming doesn't block, he'll go over the top and drown. He'll be freed after the digger takes a few digs, but the delay is enough to stop him from being able to go up).
4) The floater builds over the trap, as shown (as if it was nessecary to show that, though...) in picture #4.
5) 100% saved, and with 9 seconds to spare, without using the basher, as shown in picture #5.

My question now is: Can you, by placing them with perfect timing, make a basher free a blocker but still turn around on him (by placing the blocker in the mid-bash higher area, the part that you put new bashers in for the trick used to beat Fun 12/14 with bashers only)? If so, then it's possible without the digger (but using the basher instead), thus making the miner and the builder the only compulsory skills for this level (and that's assuming we don't find solutions without them). No way I'm going to try this myself, at least not until I get confirmation that it's at least possible in general.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 4940
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2009, 01:41:11 pm »
I'll suggest a starting point of 8 builders for Tricky 14, just so we can get a total there (which I will add in shortly).

You can put in a real result for that level now.  Here is Tricky 14 with 4 builders.  This better be optimal given how much work it took. :XD: ;)

The zip file includes a single screenshot although it probably isn't enough to convey the full solution; PM me if you can't use Lemmix replays and I'll do my best to explain it.  If anyone wants to attempt it themselves, here's an important hint:

Quote from: Spoiler
There's a point in the solution where you need to use the Tame 20 trick against a wall that's only 4 pixels wide, just barely wide enough to support the climbing without the lemming falling off the wall.  But for that to work, the lemming needs to be pushed into the wall an exact distance, which means you need to time the freeing of the blocker precisely.
 

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 4940
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2009, 02:05:46 pm »
My question now is: Can you, by placing them with perfect timing, make a basher free a blocker but still turn around on him (by placing the blocker in the mid-bash higher area, the part that you put new bashers in for the trick used to beat Fun 12/14 with bashers only)?

The answer is "no" as far as I know.  The basher doesn't feel the effects of blockers (or any other trigger areas) until he starts moving, and he doesn't start moving until well after he completes the terrain removal associated with the bash stroke.  So the blocker will be freed long before the basher starts moving.

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 9212
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2009, 02:09:13 pm »
Okay. Well even so, eliminating the basher is pretty good.

I'm still trying to decide which is my best acheivement in this topic... Tricky 12, Tricky 30, or this one...
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 4940
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2009, 03:55:24 pm »
Here's a first crack at Mayhem 2, with 6 builders.  Anyone who wants to do better will have to work out a way starting from the bottom of the pillar.

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 4940
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2009, 09:36:55 pm »
I think I can get Taxing 16 out of the way now.  I've previously shown that it can be done without blockers and bombers (100% solution), and (separate solution) without floaters.  The attached solution attempts to minimize builders (down to 7).  So the current result for the level is "7 builders".

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 4940
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2009, 10:41:32 pm »
Taxing 21's another level that ends up with "none":

- the standard solution doesn't use floaters, blockers, bombers, or bashers (don't start building at the place shown in the picture, but more about 7 pixels away from the edge, and the builder will naturally stop at the right place).

- attached's a solution that doesn't use climbers or miners.

- I also mentioned on the old old forums of a solution that doesn't use builders.  I don't have a replay ready at the moment, but you should be able to extrapolate the solution based on the no-climber-no-miner solution.

- and of course, you can eliminate the digger in the standard solution by mining towards the steel instead to turn around.

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 4940
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2009, 12:52:50 am »
yea I bow out of all challenges like this in the future; these glitches are getting too advanced for me to follow  :-[

Another thing to keep in mind is that sometimes you can achieve the same results without using glitches.  For example, here're the Fun 23 results (no builders, and separately no bashers) without the Tame 20 trick (nor any climbers nor exploders, for that matter).  Both are glitch-free under a reasonable definition of "glitches", or at least pretty close to it.  Further reductions in certain types of skills are probably possible; for example, the one without bashers can be modified to use only miners and builders while still saving 100%.

(Screenshot include in zip file for those who can't use Lemmix replays.)

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 4940
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2009, 03:41:38 am »
Taxing 9: "none"

- a well-known solution only uses a digger, a floater, and a miner.  So climbers, bombers, blockers, builders and bashers are optional.

- in the same solution above, instead of using the miner, you can use a blocker, then free him with the 2nd digger, a basher, and a builders (or 2 climbers).

- to avoid the floater, have both the 1st and 2nd lemming dig separate but close-together tunnels.  Stop the digging with builders.  Have the lemming from the right tunnel mine left to free everyone.

- finally, to avoid the digger, see attached solution.

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 4940
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #60 on: September 15, 2009, 12:28:36 pm »
Mayhem 12:

- the "near side" solution using ClamSpammer's glitches uses 1 builder, 3 diggers, and 1 basher.  Unfortunately that builder is needed here to setup the necessary glitch.

- It's possible to solve the level without diggers, using miners where applicable.  The ceiling route for example lends readily to this, although it's possible to do it without the ceiling route for a glitch-free solution (attached).

- It's also possible solve the level without bashers.  You will need to use the glitch of getting a climber stuck.  See attached solution.

(Screenshots included in zip file).

Final result: 1 builder

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 9212
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #61 on: September 15, 2009, 07:29:54 pm »
Taxing 1, 6 builders is obvious. Is a basher also nessecary or can it be done without bashers?

Taxing 2, I've attached two replays that between them, eliminate every skill except for one builder.

Taxing 3 is however many builders is needed to get a path to the exit (unless you can do it in fewer with sliding, maybe?). You can create a holding area without builders by using the dig-on-same-spot trick, and using a climber who then digs and bashes to release the crowd. The level is possible with builders only, so no non-builder skill is essential.

Taxing 4, a normal solution can be done with either miners, or diggers and bashers, to get the two sides together, and apart from that, only builders are needed. So, what's the fewest amount of builders it can be done with? It seems to be... 3, by using almost every other skill, and TONS of glitch abuse (starts with blockers pushing lemmings into walls, then there's steel glitches, lemmings walking through blockers by coming up under a blocker on an edge, and concludes with a good old slide straight up to the exit).

Taxing 5, I'll leave this to someone else.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Minim

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 1442
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #62 on: September 15, 2009, 07:46:24 pm »
Alright, I'll try Taxing 5 then.

Solved without blockers, bombers, 7 builders so far... I think it works without diggers as well although I didn't do it manually. Can it be solved with just one basher even though there are two walls?

Improved to 6 builders, replay is here just in case...
The user formerly known as minimac

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 9212
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #63 on: September 15, 2009, 07:48:37 pm »
No chance. You need a seperate basher for the walls in the middle and the walls by the exit. By going the high route, though, you can get through the entire middle column with just one basher, if that's what you mean.

However, you can probably eliminate the bashers altogether by using diggers and/or bombers to get through the walls.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Minim

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 1442
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #64 on: September 15, 2009, 07:55:38 pm »
No chance.

Ha-ha I did get it in one basher. ;P Although I forgot the replay here's what I've done.

Quote from: Spoiler
Blockers and bombers (2 of each) for the first wall and for the other I dug the left side of the column, bashed the exit floor, turned round and built a rescue bridge (I've somehow created a gap between the stair and the exit platform. At the start I've decided to create a safety bridge on the right to stop the lemmings falling)
The user formerly known as minimac

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 9212
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #65 on: September 15, 2009, 08:02:29 pm »
Sorry, but I can one-up you on that.

Attached: Taxing 5 with no bashers.

Note that the huge builder stacking right at the end isn't actually nessecary, I just couldn't be bothered timing the bomber.

So, if no one can improve on your 6 builders run, then I'd say the essential skills for this level stands at that: 6 builders.

However, I think 5 may be possible... but it'd require excellent timing, so I'm leaving that one to the experts. :P 4 is out of the question.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 4940
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #66 on: September 15, 2009, 08:31:03 pm »
Taxing 1, 6 builders is obvious. Is a basher also nessecary or can it be done without bashers?

I really doubt it.  No basher means no ceiling or underground route to bypass the 3 pillars.  A pillar's width is 34, which can be breached with 2 diggers (9 pixels each) and 1 bomber (16 pixels), and you might even be able to get your bomber into the correct position for that using both blockers (who would be freed by one of the digger and the bomber, if you know what I have in mind).  But, you'll then need to use up the remaining 2 builders as well to stop the diggers, and then I don't see how you would get through the remaining 2 pillars with 2 miners and nothing else.  It also takes 3 builders to connect two adjacent pillars so that they can be mined with one miner, but you only have 2 to spare.

Offline LemSteven

  • Posts: 497
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #67 on: September 15, 2009, 08:45:01 pm »
Taxing 18:  1 builder

The level is possible using just a builder, a bomber, and a basher by bashing through the top of the steel below the OWW.

It is fairly well known that 100% is possible without the basher, so that means the basher and the bombers are not necessary.

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 4940
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #68 on: September 15, 2009, 10:09:26 pm »
[on Taxing 5] 4 is out of the question.

Not if you use the right glitch.  See attached (screenshot included).

The real question now is whether 3 builders is possible.  The main issue is the relative lack of bombers and blockers I think, but you might just barely have enough, I'm not sure.  I'll leave that for another time/someone else to try.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2188
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #69 on: September 15, 2009, 10:31:08 pm »
Taxing 4, a normal solution can be done with either miners, or diggers and bashers, to get the two sides together, and apart from that, only builders are needed. So, what's the fewest amount of builders it can be done with? It seems to be... 3, by using almost every other skill, and TONS of glitch abuse (starts with blockers pushing lemmings into walls, then there's steel glitches, lemmings walking through blockers by coming up under a blocker on an edge, and concludes with a good old slide straight up to the exit).

Improved to 1 builder. This sees the return of a trick I used a couple of times in the "one of each" thread - and it could come up again in this thread, since obviously if you can do the sliding trick with one builder instead of two, that's going to be of interest.

Offline LemSteven

  • Posts: 497
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #70 on: September 15, 2009, 11:07:35 pm »
Taxing 6 appears to come down to 1 basher.

No blockers or bombers are used in the 100% solution, and the digger is not used in the standard "bunch 'em up and send 'em through the traps" solution.

But no matter what you do, you're going to need at least one basher to get everyone together.

Also, I might as well mention this obvious one:

Taxing 19 -- 5 bombers.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2188
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2009, 05:28:38 am »
Crazy 1: 1 blocker
Crazy 2: 1 climber, 3 builders, 1 digger
Crazy 3: 2 bombers
Crazy 4: 6 builders
Crazy 5: 7 builders
Crazy 6: 1 climber, 2 diggers, 5 builders
Crazy 7: 1 climber, 1 floater, 3 builders, 1 basher
Crazy 11: 1 builder :P

Wow, I completely missed this post somehow. I can improve two of these:

Crazy 2 can be done quite easily without the climber.
Crazy 4: If you build at exactly the right spot, the builder will connect with the top platform and shrug, and then you can get it to climb up. The solution then takes 4 builders in total.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2188
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2009, 08:51:56 am »
More Crazy:


8: A 4-builders solution was found a long time ago. It looks like you need a basher to get past the crystals, if nothing else. The rest can be done away with easily.
- 4 builders, 1 basher

9: Fairly straightforward to eliminate builders, and then each digging skill in turn. The rest are obviously unnecessary.
- none

10: Basher is obviously required. My least-skills solution cuts out the climber, floater and one builder, and a modification of the ceiling backroute (attached) gets away without using the blocker. My RR99 solution (attached here since I never posted it before) doesn't use the bomber. (This exploits the poor positioning of the trigger areas, and of course doesn't have to be done with RR99.)
- 7 builders, 1 basher

12: 2 builders needed for obvious reasons. It takes 3 bombers to get down safely to the ground, and another 2 to get through the pillars - but you can only lose 5 lemmings, and there aren't enough skills left to control the rest of the lemmings without using at least one basher.
- 2 builders, 1 basher

13: The least skills solution uses the digger, miner and 2 builders. The standard solution (at least as I see it) uses no builders.
- 1 miner, 1 digger

14: Fairly exclusive solution, only the climber and floaters can be cut out.
- 2 blockers, 4 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger

15: Simple backroute by digging next to the steel takes 3 builders, and doesn't require the climber and bomber. Direct drop route uses no diggers.
- 3 builders

16: One builder is obviously needed. Everything else can be done away with - even the bashers.
- 1 builder

Offline Proxima

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 3408
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2009, 12:48:01 pm »
Crazy 17 is confusing me. The minimum skills thread says 8, which surely must mean the ceiling route? (I know the ceiling route is possible on Mac, but the time factor made me think it might not convert to DOS.) But if so, why isn't it 7?

Offline namida

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 9212
    • View Profile
    • NeoLemmix Website
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2009, 12:56:40 pm »
The ceiling route is not possible in DOS, not even close.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 4940
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #75 on: September 16, 2009, 07:26:12 pm »
Crazy 17 is confusing me. The minimum skills thread says 8, which surely must mean the ceiling route? (I know the ceiling route is possible on Mac, but the time factor made me think it might not convert to DOS.) But if so, why isn't it 7?

And now you're confusing us by posting this here instead of on the minimum skills thread. :P

Anyway, you can do 8 without the ceiling route because:

Quote from: hint/spoiler
If you dig right next to the right wall at the start (ie. at the pixel immediately before the lemming starts to turn left), you can dig through multiple levels, and then start bashing right through the wall without the basher falling.

So you need 2 skills to get through the first wall, 1 to get past the barrel, 2 to build to the brickwork above water, 1 to bash through it and 1 to dig (otherwise the fall is fatal), and finally 1 to release the crowd.
 

Offline LemSteven

  • Posts: 497
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #76 on: September 17, 2009, 02:01:50 am »
The ceiling route does work in DOS, but it requires 9 skills.  Due to time constraints, the crowd must be restrained until most of the work is done, which requires 2 extra skills in addition to the 7 that Proxima was alluding to.

Even then, the solution comes down to the last few seconds.

But back on topic, here's the breakdown for Crazy 17:

  • The blocker and bomber are obviously not needed.
  • Since only one builder is needed to clear the red barrel thingy, the standard solution can be done with just three builders.
  • The 8-skill solution uses only two of the three diggers.

Therefore the final list comes down to 3 builders, 2 bashers, and 2 diggers.

Offline ccexplore

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 4940
    • View Profile
Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #77 on: September 17, 2009, 02:54:29 am »
    • The 8-skill solution uses only two of the three diggers.

    Therefore the final list comes down to 3 builders, 2 bashers, and 2 diggers.

    Unless there's a time problem in the 8-skill solution, since you can lose 1 and still pass the level, can't you trade the 2nd digger for a bomber?  (ie. so the final result is just 1 digger not 2?)

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #78 on: September 17, 2009, 05:19:37 am »
    You certainly can. :)

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #79 on: September 17, 2009, 07:25:11 am »
    Taxing 10 works with 6 builders.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #80 on: September 17, 2009, 07:50:09 am »
    Taxing 7:
    Climber-free replay attached.
    Bombers, the intended solution uses only one. I can't seem to reduce it below this.
    Blocker-free replay attached.
    Builders, the level gives you six. Replay using five attached.
    Bashers, I can't find any way to beat the level without using one.

    So for Taxing 7, it's 1 bomber, 5 builders, 1 basher.
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #81 on: September 17, 2009, 07:59:24 am »
    Taxing 8:
    Climbers and floaters are obviously not going to help you at all on this level.
    Bombers are useless, since it's 100%.
    The fewest builders this level can be completed with is 3, replay attached.
    The fewest bashers this level can be completed with is 4, replay attached.

    Note that 3 builders + 4 bashers is an impossible skillset for this level, of course. 3 builders solution uses far more than 4 bashers, and 4 bashers solution uses far more than 3 builders.
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #82 on: September 17, 2009, 08:28:43 am »
    Crazy 18: It takes two builders (and some perfect bridge-stretching) to get from the upper platform to the top ball, from which the lemmings can walk to the exit. As far as I'm aware, there's no viable 1- or no- builder solution using the Tame 20 trick, since the time limit and skill set are too restrictive. Every other skill, however, can be eliminated by varying the 2-builder solution in different ways.
    Result: 2 builders.

    Crazy 19: One builder is needed to get across the water, and other routes don't offer any improvement on this. The other skills can be picked off one by one without much difficulty. It's helpful to know that you can build over the one-way wall with three builders.
    Result: 1 builder.

    Crazy 20: 50% requirement means you can ignore the left side altogether, which helps a lot. Blockers and bombers are easy to eliminate. 6 builders seems to be a minimum - unfortunately it takes two to cross the first gap because of the spike, and there's no way to get rid of in such a way that keeps the builder moving without losing a lemming, and thus needing to save some from the left. Bashers can be left altogether by using bombers instead, and then saving the left side using the spare builders.
    Result: 6 builders.

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #83 on: September 17, 2009, 09:27:05 am »
    Taxing 8 is evil. I had an idea to reduce it to 3 bashers. The level is perfectly set up to not allow this. (On the other hand, with cheapo mechanics, it would be doable, due to a slight difference in how bashers react to builder steps placed in front of them)

    But at least it's given me an idea for a new level. :D
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #84 on: September 17, 2009, 09:33:51 am »
    Well, it seems we both had the same idea.

    I got it to work though. ;) Replay attached.

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #85 on: September 17, 2009, 09:52:08 am »
    Yours is slightly different to what I was trying, although the trick's the same. Nice work, anyway.
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #86 on: September 19, 2009, 01:50:24 pm »
    Taxing 7 is really nothing other than the standard solution (except for just 1 bomber). Taxing 8 works with 4 builders and 5 bashers.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #87 on: September 19, 2009, 09:06:24 pm »
    I'm going to go ahead and start looking at Wicked.

    Wicked 1: 
    • The 98% solution requires just a bomber, a basher, a miner, and a digger.
    • The basher can be eliminated by using bombers to clear the one-way wall.
    • The miner and digger can also be eliminated by using bombers instead.
    So the result comes to 1 Bomber.

    Wicked 2:  
    • I've just completed a run of the level without bashers, so they can be eliminated.
    • You need at least seven total miners and diggers (one at the start, five in the middle, and one at the end).  Since a total of eight are provided, you can either save one miner or one digger.
    • The climber is clearly not necessary.
    The result here is 5 builders, 1 miner, and 5 diggers.

    Wicked 3
    • Using the right side, the level can be completed with as few as 3 builders.
    • The right side solution also doesn't require any climbers or bashers.
    • I managed to complete the level without any diggers using a left route.
    Therefore, the list comes down to just 3 builders.

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #88 on: September 19, 2009, 09:16:30 pm »
    My turn at wicked 4:
    So far: 2 bombers, 6 builders and 1 basher, although I'm sure it can be without the basher at all since you can blast open the one-way block.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #89 on: September 19, 2009, 11:03:41 pm »
    You definitely don't need the basher because the low save requirement allows you to ignore the top right entrance completely.  Also, using the same logic, you can ignore the top left entrance and remove the need for the bombers.

    So we're now down to just the 6 builders.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #90 on: September 20, 2009, 12:04:14 am »
    And now the (presumably final) result for Wicked 4: 3 builders. The trick here is to use some of the "spare" lemmings to destroy the parts of the white steps that would get in the builder's way.

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #91 on: September 20, 2009, 06:51:06 am »
    You definitely don't need the basher because the low save requirement allows you to ignore the top right entrance completely.  Also, using the same logic, you can ignore the top left entrance and remove the need for the bombers.

    So we're now down to just the 6 builders.

    Well done, I missed the point. I ignore the lower left entrance so often you know.

    Anyway, Wicked 5 needs a climber and a builder, a basher and a digger. Great level for the one-per-skill challenge.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #92 on: September 20, 2009, 07:51:45 am »
    Wicked 6 definitely comes down to nothing.  No bombers are needed to pass the level, and yet a bombers-only solution exists as well.

    I'm also pretty sure Wicked 7 comes down to 1 blocker and 4 bombers.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #93 on: September 20, 2009, 09:04:20 am »
    Wicked 5 can be solved without the climber. Which makes this a good level for speedruns too :D

    Wild 1 (similar to Wicked 6) ends up with no essential skills either. You can solve it with any two of:
    • bombers
    • builders
    • basher and miners
    while leaving the other group of skills.

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #94 on: September 20, 2009, 06:57:05 pm »
    Havoc 12 works with 9 builders. ccexplore posted a solution in this post.

    http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=98.msg1613#msg1613
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #95 on: September 21, 2009, 07:50:37 am »
    Taxing 15 is another "None".  It can be done with builders only, yet it can also be done with no builders.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #96 on: September 21, 2009, 09:40:18 am »
    I started Wild, so I may as well continue.

    2: 5 builders
    3: 6 builders (a builders-only solution is possible here)
    4: 6 builders, 1 basher. The 6-builder solution was a nightmare to execute, so the replay is here to save you the trouble :XD:
    5: 2 bombers, 3 builders. I'll leave the 3 builder solution as a challenge. Sliding is not the way to go :evil:
    6: 1 builder

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #97 on: September 21, 2009, 10:50:31 pm »
    Wicked 8 looks like it requires 4 bombers, 2 climbers, and a builder.  Unfortunately, the towers appear to be just a tad too wide to force the crowd through with a blocker.

    Offline chaos_defrost

    • Posts: 895
    • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #98 on: September 22, 2009, 03:12:56 am »
    I honestly don't get how the Wild 3 builders-only solution is possible. Can you make a replay of that? Thanks.
    "こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

    ~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #99 on: September 22, 2009, 03:58:00 am »
    I haven't actually tried it, but I know the basic principle of how it's done.  The vast majority of the route is through the chains at the top of the level.

    Offline Yawg

    • Posts: 126
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #100 on: September 22, 2009, 04:10:02 am »
    The main problem I run into when implementing this solution is that halfway through the chains the lemmings get caught at the top of the screen and you have to use a digger to free them... :-[
    Finally released my 6th level pack! Ten levels intended to push you quite a bit beyond the expectations of Mayhem/Havoc; check 'em out and let me know what you think!

    http://camanis.net/lemmings/levelpacks.php?info&pack=174

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #101 on: September 22, 2009, 04:40:24 am »
    Wild 7: 3 builders, 2 bashers
    Wild 8: 10 climbers, 10 floaters, 1 builder
    Wild 10: 3 builders, 1 basher


    The builders-only route for Wild 3 takes a bit of fine placement. You can get up into the first chain with a single builder if it's placed in the right spot. (Actually, there might be more than one position that works.) The other tricky bit is the one Yawg is struggling with - avoiding getting stuck in the ceiling.

    Offline Dullstar

    • Posts: 1608
      • View Profile
      • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #102 on: September 22, 2009, 04:49:15 am »
    I wonder, with things such as new glitches being found (not often) or new backroutes) will these results ever be certain to be final?

    Offline chaos_defrost

    • Posts: 895
    • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #103 on: September 22, 2009, 05:49:17 am »
    What? The no digger Wild 10 makes even less sense to me than the builder only wild 3. At least the latter I can kind of see how to conceptualise.

    I give up at Lemmings challenges, I'm going to stick to my bare-bones knowledge of the Lemmings engine and use my weird mind-set to make challenging levels and play from now on.

     :-[
    "こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

    ~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #104 on: September 22, 2009, 05:58:26 am »
    I wonder, with things such as new glitches being found (not often) or new backroutes) will these results ever be certain to be final?

    Of course not. Same with any other challenge. If you ever do manage to improve on any of the challenge results, you can go and dig up the relevant thread.

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #105 on: September 22, 2009, 07:39:39 am »
    Havoc 12 works with 9 builders. ccexplore posted a solution in this post.

    http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=98.msg1613#msg1613

    I think there's an error in your first post, Clam spammer. You put it in as Havoc 15 rather than 12, unless you know that 15 works with just 9 builders.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #106 on: September 22, 2009, 08:49:20 am »
    Oops :D Thanks for picking that up.


    Next couple from Wild (these were pretty tough):

    11: 2 builders
    12: 3 2 builders, 1 basher. The 2-builder solution is a tough one to figure out (but easy to execute, thankfully). I've attached the replay for those who don't like this sort of thing ;)

    A couple of tips that may be useful on Wild 11:
    - Miners go quite a long way into steel before turning back
    - Bashers can dig out the end of a steel area

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #107 on: September 22, 2009, 04:03:19 pm »
    Wicked 9 works so far with 1 blocker but I'm sobbing by the fact it can't be done without the floater. I also did it with 9 builders.

    And for Hail 3 (I like this level because the skills are so generous) I did 11 builders with 14 bashers (Sorry about the 14 bashers, I'm sure I can do better than that, that was on my first attempt :P)
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline Proxima

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 3408
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #108 on: September 22, 2009, 06:24:07 pm »
    By the way -- something I've been curious about for some time, and I'll ask it here rather than the minimum skills topic just because this one is near the top at the moment.

    I know that some versions of Lemmings allow you to solve "We all fall down" with just two builders, and I know what the trick is to that solution. So I can understand why it would require three on DOS. But how on earth do you come by 3 on the Fun version, 5 on Tricky, 7 on Taxing and 9 on Mayhem? I can't understand how a trick solution can be possible and yet not the same number for all four.....

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #109 on: September 22, 2009, 08:37:48 pm »
    This just comes down to optimising the standard digger-saving technique of increasing the release rate to let some lemmings fall safely without using a digger themselves. The lemmings will fall safely if half the thickness of the platform (3 pixels) has been dug before they fall off, as you're probably aware. Of course, to fully optimise it, you can't use a constant release rate ;)

    The end result is one digger per 9 lemmings, rounded up. Hence the pattern of 3, 5, 7 and 9.

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #110 on: September 23, 2009, 06:30:34 am »
    I'm getting annoyed with Havoc 13. I tried to take the higher route to avoid the basher but when I'm at the top I get stuck :XD: in the middle of the second bridge and can't get out. So that means I did have to use a basher, and a miner to beat the level, along with 5 builders. Blockers and bombers are not worried about.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #111 on: September 23, 2009, 06:35:15 am »
    Wicked 9 works so far with 1 blocker but I'm sobbing by the fact it can't be done without the floater. I also did it with 9 builders.

    Try to hold back your tears as you watch the replay I posted here. :P While I did use the floater in this solution (in the interest of speed), it's pretty clear how to adapt the solution to avoid it.


    I'm getting annoyed with Havoc 13. I tried to take the higher route to avoid the basher but when I'm at the top I get stuck :XD: in the middle of the second bridge and can't get out.

    How do you mean "stuck"?

    EDIT: I got a no-basher and (separate) no-miner solution, replay with no bashers attached. (Changing this to avoid the miner instead is trivial)

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #112 on: September 23, 2009, 06:59:57 am »
    That is absolute genius, well done Clam Spammer.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #113 on: September 24, 2009, 02:23:19 am »
    Oh wow, thanks :thumbsup:


    Here's the rest of Wild. Most of these were achieved by just going through the skills one by one.
    13: 2 climbers, 2 bombers, 2 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner
    14: 1 builder
    15: 1 builder, 1 basher
    16: 1 climber, 4 builders
    17: 2 builders, 1 basher
    18: 2 bombers, 3 builders
    19: 7 builders
    20: 2 builders

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #114 on: September 24, 2009, 06:51:26 am »
    Havoc 14 is just the standard solution without a climber. So the results: 1 climber, 4 builders, 4 bashers, 2 diggers.

    For Havoc 15: 7 builders, 1 blocker, 1 basher and 1 digger.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #115 on: September 24, 2009, 09:18:10 am »
    Forgot to mention earlier - I did Havoc 13 with 3 builders as well.

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #116 on: September 24, 2009, 03:00:05 pm »
    Havoc 16 essentials so far are 5 builders and 1 blocker. Does this level work with the sliding glitch?
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #117 on: September 24, 2009, 03:19:22 pm »
    o_O
    Fun 15 with two builders? Replay please...

    EDIT: Nevermind, found it on the old pages.
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #118 on: September 24, 2009, 08:30:49 pm »
    You can definitely remove the blocker in Havoc 16.  A miner+builder on the bottom floor has the same effect.  The remaining skills are sufficient to get everyone up to the exit.

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #119 on: September 24, 2009, 09:46:39 pm »
    And for Hail 3 (I like this level because the skills are so generous) I did 11 builders with 14 bashers (Sorry about the 14 bashers, I'm sure I can do better than that, that was on my first attempt :P)

    Improved to 5 bashers now. I'll need to see ccexplore's 23-skill solution to help me.

    Oh, that didn't help :P. He used 13 builders with 7 bashers.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #120 on: September 25, 2009, 08:19:52 pm »
    For Havoc 15: 7 builders, 1 blocker, 1 basher and 1 digger.

    Heh. I didn't need the digger at all. The replay explains why.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #121 on: September 25, 2009, 10:35:12 pm »
    Here's a couple more from Wicked:

    Wicked 16:  1 bomber, 1 builder
    Wicked 17:  5 builders

    Offline Proxima

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 3408
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #122 on: September 25, 2009, 11:51:07 pm »
    It's not often that I get one you missed, but Wild 17 don't need no bashers.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #123 on: September 26, 2009, 01:14:48 am »
    Ack, of course :XD:

    Well spotted.


    Havoc 16 essentials so far are 5 builders and 1 blocker. Does this level work with the sliding glitch?

    Of course it does. :) The question is whether you can use it to save any skills - and in the absence of bashers, I'm not sure if you can.

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #124 on: September 26, 2009, 05:14:58 am »
    What? The no digger Wild 10 makes even less sense to me than the builder only wild 3. At least the latter I can kind of see how to conceptualise.

    I give up at Lemmings challenges, I'm going to stick to my bare-bones knowledge of the Lemmings engine and use my weird mind-set to make challenging levels and play from now on.

     :-[

    Don't feel too bad about this one.  I've seen the Wild 10 challenge a few months back, and I still haven't gotten it myself. :XD: I've tried a few things on and off but I always seem to run out of builders and bashers, so at this point I'm not even sure if I've gotten the correct approach yet.  I'm not ready to give up on it yet, but I think it's time for Clam to post the replay for that one at least for the benefit of other people.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #125 on: September 26, 2009, 05:27:27 am »
    Hmm... now I think about it, the required placement for this challenge is quite harsh - 2 builders have to be placed exactly right, with no sort of guide from the terrain as to where to put them.

    Here is the replay, for anyone who wants to see it.

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #126 on: September 26, 2009, 07:38:07 am »
    Replays for each of these levels are in the minimum skills thread. Here are the last four levels of Havoc:

    17: 1 blocker, 4 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
    18: 1 climber, 1 blocker, 8 builders, 1 basher, 2 diggers
    19: 4 builders, 3 bashers, 1 miner, 1 digger
    20: 1 climber, 1 floater, 7 bombers, 2 miners.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #127 on: September 27, 2009, 03:10:38 pm »
    [on Taxing 5] 4 is out of the question.

    Not if you use the right glitch.  See attached (screenshot included).

    The real question now is whether 3 builders is possible.  The main issue is the relative lack of bombers and blockers I think, but you might just barely have enough, I'm not sure.  I'll leave that for another time/someone else to try.

    Looks like it's "another time" then. ;) Here's a 3-builder solution for Taxing 5.

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #128 on: September 27, 2009, 04:01:07 pm »
    That is... in a word... INCREDIBLE!

    Anyway, last three levels of Wicked are...

    18: 9 builders
    19: 2 bashers, 6 builders
    20: 1 blocker, 4 builders (Sorry about that one, I'm 100% sure this is improvable since it works with just 4 skills, but I'm not sure which 4 they are).

    And some Havoc here too.

    9: 14 climbers, 5 builders, 3 miners
    10: 1 builder
    11: 11 builders
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #129 on: September 27, 2009, 09:17:07 pm »
    19: 4 builders, 3 bashers, 1 miner, 1 digger

    I've done some work on this level and here's what I have come up with:

    -- The minimum number of builders is 2 (one at the very start and another to get up to the wall on the left).  The crowd can be trapped using just 2 bashers, a miner, and a digger, and released using a digger and a miner.  (One lemming does leak out to the right at the beginning, but he is saved in the end by making him a climber.)

    -- One basher is needed to get through the large wall to the right of the exit.

    -- You have enough builders such that no bashers, miners, or diggers are strictly necessary for crowd control.

    -- The exit can be reached in the end with any of a basher, miner, or digger, so once again none are strictly necessary.

    Therefore my result for Havoc 19 is 2 builders & 1 basher

    Offline chaos_defrost

    • Posts: 895
    • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #130 on: September 28, 2009, 07:37:30 am »
    [on Taxing 5] 4 is out of the question.

    Not if you use the right glitch.  See attached (screenshot included).

    The real question now is whether 3 builders is possible.  The main issue is the relative lack of bombers and blockers I think, but you might just barely have enough, I'm not sure.  I'll leave that for another time/someone else to try.

    Looks like it's "another time" then. ;) Here's a 3-builder solution for Taxing 5.


    ... so I never thought geoo's Tame 13 1 builder solution could be eclipsed as a "skill reduction run" challenge for a level.

    This may actually manage to do that.  :)
    "こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

    ~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #131 on: September 28, 2009, 05:17:55 pm »
    To end your Havoc levels here are the first 8 (I went backwards didn't I :D)

    1: 5 builders
    2: 2 climbers, 1 floater, 1 blocker, 12 builders, 2 diggers (Improvable)
    3: 1 builder, 1 basher
    4: 1 climber, 1 floater, 4 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger
    5: 2 climbers, 1 builder, 2 bashers, 2 miners
    6: 1 miner
    7: 6 climbers, 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 10 builders, 2 bashers, 2 miners, 1 digger
    8: 1 climber, 5 builders, 4 miners, 1 digger.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #132 on: September 30, 2009, 05:30:27 am »
    And now I'll start checking through Havoc myself - the right way ;)

    1, 3 and 6 aren't improvable. This should be fairly obvious.

    2: I can't find any way to solve this with no diggers. My result here is a digger and 9 builders.
    4: A 3-skill solution exists - one builder, basher and digger. All three are essential to any solution as far as I can tell.
    5: Possible with no builders, which I long thought was impossible but just achieved today. (Personally, I wouldn't recommend trying this one - once you've got the general strategy, the rest is a total crapshoot, and seriously unfun. never mind that part... :P)

    Offline chaos_defrost

    • Posts: 895
    • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #133 on: September 30, 2009, 05:49:54 am »
    I saw a 1 digger solution to Havoc 18 on Youtube; I'm not sure if the mechanics are different or anything but the idea is to use a bomber instead of a digger to release the group and the only digger is to dig the tall thin pillar in the middle.

    confirm/deny?
    "こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

    ~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #134 on: September 30, 2009, 06:49:37 am »
    Confirm, definitely.  ;)

    With one more builder, I could do it with no diggers... :(



    Continuing from above:
    Havoc 7 - 5 builders.

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #135 on: September 30, 2009, 06:58:08 am »
    5: Possible with no builders, which I long thought was impossible but just achieved today. (Personally, I wouldn't recommend trying this one - once you've got the general strategy, the rest is a total crapshoot, and seriously unfun.)

    I had actually reported that almost 4 years ago back on the old old forums (search for "pass Havoc 5 without builders").  Yes, it was just the standard solution with a "slight modification" of the first few moves, though I won't go quite as far as calling the re-solving the rest of Havoc 5 "seriously unfun". ;)

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #136 on: September 30, 2009, 08:42:47 am »
    I was doing it wrong, that's why :D

    For some reason I thought you needed to assign both climbers at the top (and thus have no idea how they'll be spaced when they come out at the bottom). I'm sure you can imagine how "unfun" this could get...

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #137 on: September 30, 2009, 04:42:27 pm »
    You forgot to update the first 8 Havoc levels I've posted. Anyway, I'll do Frost.

    After an hour's work, here are the essentials of Frost:

    3 and 11: 1 builder
    6: 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 4 builders
    7: 7 builders
    9: 2 builders, 1 miner
    10: 1 floater, 1 builder, 1 basher, 3 miners, 3 diggers
    12: 3 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger
    13: 2 builders.
    14: 3 builders, 3 bashers
    15: 1 builder, 3 bashers
    16: 1 climber, 1 floater, 3 builders.
    The rest: no essentials

    Replays for 5 and 11, both done without bashers.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #138 on: September 30, 2009, 08:26:02 pm »
    I didn't forget - I'm still working through them.

    Havoc 8 is possible with one less builder. That leaves 1 climber, 4 builders, 4 miners and 1 digger.

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #139 on: September 30, 2009, 10:20:10 pm »
    Havoc 8 is possible with one less builder. That leaves 1 climber, 4 builders, 4 miners and 1 digger.

    Possible with either 3 miners or without the digger.  See attached.  [screenshot included for the no-digger variant, the 3-miner variant is virtually identical except for switching the miner for a digger]

    I even have a spare builder left over, though I don't think that can help with any further reduction of skills.  It may allow for 100% though I think, by allowing you to start building slightly more away from the edge for the top-left gap (spanning it with 2 builders instead of 1), so that the climber cannot re-climb the left wall (the fact that it can is sorta a glitch anyway).

    Anyway, this puts Havoc 8 at 1 climber, 4 builders, 3 miners.

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #140 on: September 30, 2009, 10:33:31 pm »
    9: 14 climbers, 5 builders, 3 miners

    The minimum-skills thread showed that you only need 13 climbers on that level.  Perhaps you didn't stretch your builders enough.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #141 on: September 30, 2009, 11:29:10 pm »
    I'm nearly done checking through Havoc. Other improvements I have made are:

    15: Eliminated all but the builders (5 of these)
    16: Down to 3 builders
    17: Down to 3 builders (:P)

    Some of these will likely require replays to explain, so when I'm done with these I might upload a zip with all of them in.



    Quote
    [Havoc 8] Possible with either 3 miners or without the digger.

    Oh crap, that was obvious. Too obvious. :-\

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #142 on: October 01, 2009, 12:06:28 am »
    I'm still working on Wicked over here:

    Wicked 12:  It is possible to get by with just 6 builders because you can drop straight off the chain into the exit.  You can also use this extra builder to remove the need for any bombers, so the result is 2 blockers, 6 builders, and 1 miner.

    Wicked 13:  We know the level can be done with builders only, so the question is what is the fewest number of builders possible?  Right now I've got it down to 8 builders, but I certainly wouldn't rule out seven.

    Wicked 14:  I went through two runs of this level.  One uses just builders, bashers, and bombers, and the other uses just climbers, miners, and blockers.  Neither one is extremely difficult, and between the two of them, they eliminate everything, so the end result is none.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #143 on: October 01, 2009, 02:22:24 am »
    I've managed to get Havoc 18 down to builders (8 of them - same as in ccexplore's least-skills replay) and one digger.

    Since I've held out on replays lately, and probably shouldn't have, I have gathered together the best ones and uploaded them here. Included are (all from Havoc):

    2 - no climbers
    7 - no blockers or bombers
    8 - 4 builders
    16 - 3 builders
    17 - 3 builders
    18 - no climbers
        - no blockers
        - no bashers
        - no digger


    EDIT: Added second set of replays: (still Havoc)

    7 - 5 builders
       - no bashers
    15 - no blockers
        - no diggers
    17 - no blockers
        - no miners

    Solutions that leave one digging skill unused can be modified easily to avoid the other digging skills instead.

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #144 on: October 01, 2009, 02:49:38 pm »
    I hate to say this, but you forgot to upload the frost levels, and, to save time, I've done the Hail levels too.

    1: 1 climber, 1 floater, 2 builders, 1 basher
    2: 4 bombers
    3: Done this one earlier today, already uploaded
    4: 1 basher, 1 miner
    5: 6 floaters, 9 builders (Thanks to Clam Spammer)
    6: none
    7: 15 builders
    8: 6 builders, 1 basher
    9: 11 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger (I hate this one. Is there a way to get rid of the digger?)
    10: 3 builders, 2 bashers, 1 miner
    11: 4 builders, 2 miners, 1 digger
    12: 6 builders
    13: 1 climber, 1 builder, 2 bashers, 2 diggers
    14: 2 blockers, 15 builders, 4 bashers
    15: 1 basher, 1 digger
    16: 10 floaters, 1 builder

    A replay for Hail 11 with one digger is downloadable at the bottom of my post.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #145 on: October 02, 2009, 10:55:30 pm »
    I've updated them now. Although I know some of them can be improved - like Frost 3, where you can avoid using any builders thanks to steel glitches.

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #146 on: October 05, 2009, 08:10:46 pm »
    For the rest of the Frost levels it's "None"

    Anyway, I asked if Mayhem 15 works with four builders, and Fernito has sent a replay in the challenges thread. Are the other skills essential? I'll have a look.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #147 on: October 05, 2009, 08:31:49 pm »
    It looks like you can avoid all the other skills easily enough.

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #148 on: October 10, 2009, 08:44:19 pm »
    Hail 14 is improved to 1 blocker and 2 bashers, but still the 15 builders are required.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline Dullstar

    • Posts: 1608
      • View Profile
      • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #149 on: October 11, 2009, 06:28:22 am »
    Wicked 13:  We know the level can be done with builders only, so the question is what is the fewest number of builders possible?  Right now I've got it down to 8 builders, but I certainly wouldn't rule out seven.

    A better question might be, "Can it be done WITHOUT builders?"  I can't confirm this for sure though.

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #150 on: October 11, 2009, 06:35:48 am »
    Have you not looked at the level, Dullstar? You need at least one builder to hit the chain and also, at least 2 builders required for the exit.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #151 on: October 11, 2009, 09:06:15 am »
    I'm pretty sure Dullstar is thinking about the wrong level, as it is pretty obvious that Wicked 13 requires several builders.

    At this point, I'm becoming more and more convinced that the minimum for that level is seven builders.  I haven't verified it yet, but I've got evidence from doing each half of the level separately.

    So far I've got the left side down to four.  The placement and alignment of the chains seems to be prohibiting this from being reduced down to three, as I can't seem to avoid having a builder hit his head on at least one of them.

    As for the right side, I'm pretty sure three builders is the minimum.  It can be done using the blocker cancelling steel glitch to create a step so the lemmings can get to the exit from the top of the third bridge.  I highly doubt two builders is possible for the right side, as that would require the glitch to be repeated multiple times, and I doubt there are enough skills available.  Plus there's also the issue of save percentage.

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #152 on: October 11, 2009, 01:55:43 pm »
    I've played about with Taxing 10. All skills except builders can be avoided, and so far, my best score is 3 builders. A replay is attached.

    Taxing 20 is none. The level can be beaten with just bashers, and just miners.
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #153 on: October 11, 2009, 04:10:06 pm »
    Here are the Xmas demo levels:

    Xmas 91 for both levels: 3 builders

    Xmas 92
    1: 1 basher
    2: None
    3: 10 builders, 1 floater
    4: 1 climber, 9 builders, 3 diggers.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline Dullstar

    • Posts: 1608
      • View Profile
      • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #154 on: October 11, 2009, 06:49:35 pm »
    The answer?  I didn't check.  Just sayin'.  Plus, if any new glitches are found...

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #155 on: October 11, 2009, 11:16:10 pm »
    Taxing 12 can be done with 2 builders (replay attached). The other skills can be avoided easily enough.
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #156 on: October 12, 2009, 03:18:36 am »
    A quick look at Taxing 7 reveals the following:

    -- The climber can be avoided by going underneath the OWW, using the "bash through the top few pixels of steel" glitch. 

    -- Using the same glitch, you can take the blocker and one builder out of the solution.

    -- The basher and bomber are necessary in both the glitch solution and the standard solution.

    Therefore my result for Taxing 7 comes to 1 bomber, 5 builders, and 1 basher.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #157 on: October 12, 2009, 09:06:58 am »
    I thought Taxing 7 was done already. It's not on the list though, so...  :-\

    I managed to get Hail 14 down to 10 builders (replay attached) and nothing else.

    I'm 99% sure you can do Xmas 91 level 1 with no builders using Tame 20 and direct drop, and level 2 with 1 builder by Tame 20 again.

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #158 on: October 12, 2009, 09:33:26 am »
    It is, I did it ages back and came to the same conclusion. (Page 5, I think it was...)
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #159 on: October 23, 2009, 06:20:26 am »
    Bumping this up because we haven't finished yet.

    Hail 5 works with 8 builders. I had to use all the floaters and the intended solution for this one.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline chaos_defrost

    • Posts: 895
    • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #160 on: October 23, 2009, 06:22:02 am »
    Mayhem 22 almost definitely reduces to a fewest builders problem.
    "こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

    ~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #161 on: October 23, 2009, 01:48:08 pm »
    I can do Mayhem 22 with 6 builders (all other skills are not necessary, including the basher). If the first chandelier was one pixel closer, I would have been able to reduce it to five.
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #162 on: October 24, 2009, 03:58:13 am »
    Taxing 11: 7 builders
    Taxing 13: 1 basher, 1 miner
    Taxing 14: 18 builders

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #163 on: October 24, 2009, 04:58:17 am »
    Taxing 14: 18 builders

    Possible with 17 builders.  I didn't really think I need to post a replay but what the heck.  Too lazy for screenshots, so a spoiler for those who can't view replays:

    Quote from: Spoiler
    DOS version has no water, so some gaps you can build over with just 1 builder.  From left to right, the building goes 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 5, [bash across Nessie's head, mine and fall], 3, [take care of the well w/o using a builder]
     

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #164 on: October 24, 2009, 05:21:04 am »
    Clam, you must have missed my results a while back for a few more Wicked levels, because they're not on the list.

    Wicked 12:  2 blockers, 6 builders, 1 miner
    Wicked 13:  7 builders
    Wicked 14:  None

    Also, I haven't tested it yet, but Wicked 15 almost certainly comes down to a floater and several builders, although I'm not sure exactly how many...

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #165 on: October 24, 2009, 09:23:00 am »
    I can do Mayhem 22 with 6 builders (all other skills are not necessary, including the basher). If the first chandelier was one pixel closer, I would have been able to reduce it to five.

    I don't know if it'll make a difference, but did you try the floor route that I used in the single-lemming challenge?
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #166 on: October 24, 2009, 04:57:28 pm »
    I have. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be the way to go. I can get to the heart-thing with 4 builders (same with the chandelier route), but I can't find a way of getting through it without using another builder (unlike the upper route, which I was able to get through by crafty uses of the miner). I also tried combining the chandeliers with the floor route, but it simply doesn't work, so i'm settling for six unless someone can come up with a better plan.

    Meanwhile, i've been working on Taxing 22, and came to 1 builder, though if it was the Master System version, it'd be none.  :D
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #167 on: October 25, 2009, 02:34:50 am »
    I've finally found a way to reduce Taxing 10 to 2 builders, and i'm absolutely convinced you can't get lower than that.
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #168 on: October 25, 2009, 10:19:31 am »
    If only someone else could do Flurry and Blitz rather than improve records. Anyway here's what I have for Flurry:

    8: 5 builders, 1 basher
    10: 4 builders*
    13: 2 builders
    14: 1 builder
    15: 5 builders
    16: 2 floaters, 2 bombers, 2 blockers, 3 builders, 1 basher.*
    Rest: none

    I'm sure they are improvable in some way. I nearly did Level 10 in 3 builders but couldn't get past the last wall up to the exit without a builder.

    Here are the Xmas demo levels:

    Xmas 91 for both levels: 3 builders

    Xmas 92
    1: 1 basher
    2: None
    3: 10 builders, 1 floater
    4: 1 climber, 9 builders, 3 diggers.

    Not all levels were submitted to the front page yet, and also, could you put the totals up for each skill please? I would be quite excited to see what they come up with!
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #169 on: October 25, 2009, 02:25:08 pm »
    Anyway here's what I have for Flurry:

    8: 5 builders, 1 basher
    10: 4 builders*
    13: 2 builders
    14: 1 builder
    15: 5 builders
    16: 2 floaters, 2 bombers, 2 blockers, 3 builders, 1 basher.*
    Rest: none

    I don't have access to Flurry, so I can't verify, but according to this thread, you can beat that level with one skill.
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline Proxima

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 3408
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #170 on: October 25, 2009, 03:47:47 pm »
    From looking at the level map, the one-skill solution is obviously a builder and there is no way to beat the level without builders.

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #171 on: October 25, 2009, 05:59:41 pm »
    I think you're right. 8)

    Meanwhile, I've got Mayhem 17 down as 1 builder. This is the first time i've ever managed to pull off the sliding trick. :thumbsup:
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline Dullstar

    • Posts: 1608
      • View Profile
      • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #172 on: October 26, 2009, 12:55:39 am »
    I still don't understand the sliding trick. :P

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #173 on: October 26, 2009, 04:55:45 am »
    I don't have access to Flurry, so I can't verify, but according to this thread, you can beat that level [Flurry 15] with one skill.

    I remember this one. If you put a builder in the right place, it blocks the other lemmings. Thus the minimum requirement for this level is one builder.


    Meanwhile, I've got Mayhem 17 down as 1 builder. This is the first time i've ever managed to pull off the sliding trick. :thumbsup:

    Did you do this on my dirt version? ;)



    I've updated some scores (probably missed some again...) and I'll add totals when I get a moment. Probably tomorrow.

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #174 on: October 26, 2009, 12:01:41 pm »
    Did you do this on my dirt version? ;)

    I ran the same replay posted above on that level... and it works. :D
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #175 on: October 26, 2009, 11:45:22 pm »
    Of course it does. ;)

    Totals are up now for completed level sets.


    EDIT: Finally decided to go through and check some levels. Here's what I've found...

    Flurry 16: Possible without floaters, bombers (replay attached with both of these unused) and blockers. Result: 2 builders, 1 basher.

    Frost 7: By going through the middle instead of taking the lower route, you can do this with 5 builders.

    Frost 9: A builders-only solution is possible. A 1-builder solution appears to be out of reach, so my result here is 2 builders.

    Frost 10: I can't imagine why you'd need a floater here. :-\ Thanks to the helpful digger mechanics in this version, you can complete this without miners (replay attached). From there you can trade a digger for 2 miners, leaving 1 builder, 1 basher, 2 diggers.

    Frost 13: The nuke-glitch solution here works with 1 builder. Maybe that 2 was a typo? I don't know what happened there.

    Frost 14: By going over the top, you can get to the exit with 1 basher. Result: 3 builders, 1 basher.

    Frost 15: You can block the lemmings at the left with a miner and bomber, thus saving a basher. This leaves 1 builder, 2 bashers.

    Frost 16: Possible without the floater. I cannot believe I never found this solution before - it almost looks as though it was deliberately built into the level. You can avoid the climber (separately) by building from the start and then bashing through the bridge to isolate a lemming. This leaves just 3 builders.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #176 on: October 27, 2009, 03:22:31 am »
    Now the revised scores for Hail:

    2: 3 bombers, thanks to the ability to block lemmings into walls.
    3: Bashers can be replaced with other skills. 10 builders appears to be a minimum (having one climber per lemming helps a lot).
    4: If I recall, I set this as a no-builder challenge a while back. I also got a no-basher solution, which can easily be changed to avoid the miner and bomber. The final result: none.
    9: I mentioned my solution for this one in another thread, but I'm not sure if I posted a replay before. Anyway, I did this with 9 builders, 1 basher.
    10: 2 builders to cross the gaps, bashers and miners are avoidable ;)
    11: I saved a builder with a bit of trickery here, leaving 3 builders, 2 miners, 1 digger.
    13: Blocking into walls and a bit of steel digging result in a no-climber solution. 1 builder, 2 bashers, 2 diggers.

    The attached zip contains replays for:
    2 - 3 bombers
    4 - no builders
       - no bashers
    9 - 9 builders and 1 basher
    10 - no bashers
        - no miners
    11 - 3 builders
    13 - no climber

    NOTE: Fix the trapdoors before playing the replays for Hail 10 (copy and paste the middle one).

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #177 on: October 27, 2009, 06:53:13 am »
    Here we go with a couple more in Wicked:

    Wicked 10
    • The 98% solution does not use the climber or the bomber, plus it only uses one blocker.
    • The floaters can be avoided completely using a backroute.  This backroute also only requires eight builders, which I doubt can be improved on.
    • The digger can be avoided by tweaking the 98% solution to use the bomber instead of the digger to release the crowd.

    The result is therefore 1 Blocker and 8 Builders.

    Wicked 11: 
    • The 100% solution obviously does not require any bombers.
    • The digger is clearly not necessary.
    • The minimum number of builders I've managed is 3.  I highly doubt this is beatable.  EDIT:  It is indeed beatable.  I originally overlooked the high road solution at the end. :-[
    • I've completed the level without blockers
    • Bashers and miners can be eliminated in separate solutions, both of which involve bombing through the large tree.

    The result here comes down to just 3 builders

    I would encourage some of the members here to try some of these solutions out, particularly for Wicked 11.  As I was working through these, I found some new routes for that level that I previously did not know existed.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #178 on: October 27, 2009, 08:11:16 am »
    Wicked 11: 

    [...]

    The minimum number of builders I've managed is 3.  I highly doubt this is beatable.

    You need 3 builders to cross two builder-sized gaps? I don't buy that for a second. ;P

    Here's a replay with 2 builders.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #179 on: October 27, 2009, 09:41:25 am »
    Also, I haven't tested it yet, but Wicked 15 almost certainly comes down to a floater and several builders, although I'm not sure exactly how many...

    6 builders. And that's the last of Wicked and ONML. I'll hold off on posting a total score for ONML until I've checked through again, since I noticed that some of the Wicked scores in particular are beatable. For now, I'll mention 19 (5 builders, 2 bashers) and 20 (1 builder only).

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #180 on: October 27, 2009, 10:42:29 am »
    Taxing 23 and 24 can be taken straight from the minimum skills topic, since both of those only give you builders...
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #181 on: October 27, 2009, 12:55:10 pm »
    6 builders. And that's the last of Wicked and ONML. I'll hold off on posting a total score for ONML until I've checked through again, since I noticed that some of the Wicked scores in particular are beatable. For now, I'll mention 19 (5 builders, 2 bashers) and 20 (1 builder only).

    And 18 (2 builders only).  No surprise there, but since you didn't mention it, I might as well stuff the replay in.

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #182 on: October 27, 2009, 05:06:53 pm »
    Here are the first 9 levels of Blitz:

    1: 1 climber, 1 floater, 1 blocker, 8 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
    2: 10 builders, 1 digger
    3: 1 digger
    4: 1 basher, 1 builder
    5: 7 builders
    6: 1 basher
    7: 6 builders
    8: 2 builders, 2 bashers
    9: 1 floater, 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 13 builders.

    I'm sure that Level 9 works with 11 builders, but I'm getting sick of this repetition in the level. Here a 13 builder replay for it so you get the idea.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #183 on: October 27, 2009, 06:54:33 pm »
    Wicked 11: 

    [...]

    The minimum number of builders I've managed is 3.  I highly doubt this is beatable.

    You need 3 builders to cross two builder-sized gaps? I don't buy that for a second. ;P

    Here's a replay with 2 builders.

    Well Clam, you beat me to it again!  :P  I was originally using the low road solution for the end of the level, where the gap requires two builders to cross.  It was getting late, so I went to bed shortly after posting that score.

    The possibility of using the high road for a two-builder solution dawned on me as I was getting ready for bed, but I had already shut the computer down and didn't want to turn it back on again to check and see if it worked.  I was still a bit nervous as to whether or not the remaining skills were sufficient to support a 2-builder solution.

    As for Wicked 19, I am absolutely certain at least one of the bashers can be eliminated.  I'm not certain about the other one, but there's a good chance that it can be avoided as well.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #184 on: October 27, 2009, 07:48:44 pm »
    You're saying it can be done with builders only? I'm sure someone would have found it by now if it was possible.



    Here are the first 9 levels of Blitz:

    1: 1 climber, 1 floater, 1 blocker, 8 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger

    It's already been established that the climber and floater are unnecessary.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #185 on: October 27, 2009, 08:43:26 pm »
    Here's my 5th (at least) challenge solution for Blitz 7 (although I don't think I uploaded them all). 1 builder. This time with the regular skillset rather than the "cheat mode" of one of each skill. :)

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #186 on: October 27, 2009, 10:38:03 pm »
    I've had a stab at two Mayhem levels; 13 and 23.

    Mayhem 13 can be done with 1 builder. I've tried for ages to find a no-builder solution, but it just isn't working for me due to a lack of diggers. You can also beat this level without using any climbers, floaters or bashers.

    My latest score with Mayhem 23 is 5 builders & 1 basher. The blockers and the floater are not necessary.
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #187 on: October 28, 2009, 01:26:41 am »
    Mayhem 28 is 5 builders & 1 basher using the ceiling route (I also used a digger, but you can beat the level without using one).
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #188 on: October 28, 2009, 01:37:27 am »
    Meanwhile, I've been working through Taxing...

    17: By building up to the top, you can get through with one basher. So far I haven't been able to eliminate the last builder, but I just thought of something...
    25: 3 builders, thanks to my patented "slingshot" technique (at least that's what I call it :)). Replay attached, although this is much easier than previous solutions that use this trick. Bashers and bombers are fairly easy to eliminate individually.
    26: 5 builders. I thought I posted this replay somewhere, but I can't find it on the forums, so here it is.
    27: It's been shown already that the bombers and blockers can be left. Whichever route you take, it seems you need 6 builders.
    30: 7 diggers (and 9 diggers for Mayhem 11)

    Taxing 23 and 24 can be taken straight from the minimum skills topic, since both of those only give you builders...

    That would be 12 and 5 builders, respectively.


    Mayhem 13 can be done with 1 builder. I've tried for ages to find a no-builder solution, but it just isn't working for me due to a lack of diggers. You can also beat this level without using any climbers, floaters or bashers.

    I tried this one a while ago while looking for "no-builder challenges", and came to the same conclusion.

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #189 on: October 28, 2009, 02:13:54 am »
    25: 3 builders, thanks to my patented "slingshot" technique (at least that's what I call it :)).

    Hmm.. that's a really good trick. I wonder if it can be used to reduce the number of builders I use on Mayhem 23.

    Edit: IT WORKED!! :thumbsup:
    So Mayhem 23 is now reduced to 4 builders & 1 basher.
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #190 on: October 28, 2009, 03:34:03 am »
    You're saying it can be done with builders only? I'm sure someone would have found it by now if it was possible.

    Oops.  Taking another look at the level, one basher is clearly necessary.  I forgot you need to bash through the pillar at the end of the upper route.  :-[

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #191 on: October 28, 2009, 04:26:03 am »
    Hmm.. that's a really good trick. I wonder if it can be used to reduce the number of builders I use on Mayhem 23.

    Edit: IT WORKED!! :thumbsup:
    So Mayhem 23 is now reduced to 4 builders & 1 basher.

    Now it's my turn to be impressed. That's a fantastic effort. :thumbsup:

    I wonder if you could eliminate the basher by bombing through the wall instead? It looks like at least 14 bombers are needed to break through (maybe fewer with steel glitches), since each bomber can take out 12 pixels if you block it into the wall first.

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #192 on: October 28, 2009, 07:14:29 am »
    Now to look at that big gap in early Mayhem:

    Mayhem 4:  From the "1 type of skill" thread, both a bombers-only and a bashers-only solution exist.  Therefore this one is None.

    Mayhem 5:  5 builders and 4 blockers are needed to reach the exit.  Everything else can be avoided pretty easily.

    Mayhem 6:  The level can be done with builders only, so the other skills are automatically eliminated.  The best I've managed so far is 6 builders.

    Mayhem 7:  The eleven-skill solution from the minimum skills thread uses three builders, three diggers, a climber, and four bashers.  The climber can be eliminated, as can one of the bashers, so we end up with 3 builders, 3 bashers, and 3 diggers.

    Mayhem 8:  I just completed the level using only builders, blockers, and bombers.  The blockers and bombers certainly aren't needed, so it comes down to builders only.  3 builders are needed to get to the one-way wall.

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #193 on: October 28, 2009, 08:10:37 am »
    Done the rest of Blitz:

    10: 3 builders
    11: 8 builders
    12: 6 builders
    13: 8 builders, 2 blockers, 1 bomber, 1 basher
    14: None
    15: 10 climbers, 10 floaters, 2 bombers, 2 builders, 1 basher
    16: 2 bombers, 1 builder, 1 basher
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #194 on: October 28, 2009, 01:04:05 pm »
    Taxing 29:
    Climbers: Replay using none attached.
    Floaters: No replay needed - dig and bash the edge instead of floating it.
    Bombers: No replay needed - use dig pits instead of blocking then bombing to release.
    Blockers: No replay needed - use dig pits instead of blocking then bombing to release.
    Builders: No replay needed - one is needed to get across the middle, every other place a builder is used, a blocker can perform the task instead.
    Bashers: No replay needed - anywhere they may be useful, miners and diggers can be substituted.
    Miners: Replay using none attached.
    Diggers: No replay needed - anywhere they may be useful, blockers/bashers/miners can be substituted.

    In short: 1 builder is obvious to cross the middle gap, all others can be avoided quite easily. Attached replays show no-climber and no-miner solutions. All other skills can be easily substituted with other skills.

    Therefore, just like it's easier version, Taxing 29 comes down to: 1 builder

    For those who can't watch replays:

    Avoiding the climber: Use the sliding glitch to get a lemming up the top to mine down. To do this, bash part way into the right area, then stop mid-bash, the rest of performing the glitch here is quite easy.
    Avoiding the miner: Use alternating diggers and bashers to lower the height required, then build up to where the climber comes out.
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline Proxima

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 3408
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #195 on: October 28, 2009, 05:42:00 pm »
    Just spotted another easily filled gap -- Mayhem 26 can be beaten with only bombers, so the number needed can be read off the maximum saved list.

    Doesn't apply to the Mac version, of course :P

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #196 on: October 28, 2009, 08:50:55 pm »
    That's a nice theory, but it's not right I'm afraid. Here's a solution with 2 bombers - the max % solution loses 4 lemmings.

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #197 on: October 29, 2009, 07:22:19 am »
    A few more Mayhem here.

    9: 7 builders, 5 bashers
    10: 10 builders, 1 floater.

    Mayhem 14 I hate so much, I'll leave this to someone else.
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #198 on: October 29, 2009, 08:42:48 am »
    There's a glitch route that uses sliding into the steel, then blocker glitches to get the lemmings out on the other side. I would assume this route is the fewest builders. Accurate building removes the need for diggers, and digging through the bridge removes the need for blockers. Therefore, however many builders are needed for that glitch route would be the essential skills.
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #199 on: October 29, 2009, 09:46:01 am »
    Here's a replay with 4 [edit: gone], but I just realised it's possible with 3...

    EDIT: Even better - just 2. :D

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #200 on: October 29, 2009, 11:03:10 am »
    Wicked 10 <snip>The floaters can be avoided completely using a backroute.  This backroute also only requires eight builders, which I doubt can be improved on.<snip>

    I think you forgot something about blockers:

    Quote from: Spoiler
    steel-canceling
     

    So while still a 12-skill solution using the same backroute, you only need 7 builders not 8.

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #201 on: October 29, 2009, 12:56:40 pm »
    EDIT: Even better - just 2. :D

    Brilliant!

    ...but you haven't quite pushed your method far enough.  I've gotten it down to just 1 builder.

    Because the solution uses that digger glitch that doesn't work in Lemmix replays, the attached replay stops working at the point where the compressed crowd approaches the right end of the bowl.  I've included a screenshot showing the result of applying the glitch, and another screenshot showing the final result after all the remaining block+dig actions.

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #202 on: October 29, 2009, 04:58:53 pm »
    [Mayhem] 10: 10 builders, 1 floater.

    I've reduced the number of builders to 6, so at the moment, it's 6 Builders & 1 Floater.
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #203 on: October 29, 2009, 06:41:23 pm »
    [Mayhem] 9: 7 builders, 5 bashers

    I've got the minimum number of bashers down to 2.  Now to see if any improvements are possible on the builders...

    EDIT: Yes!  Minimum builders is now down to 5, glitch-free.  So for Mayhem 9 we now have 5 builders & 2 bashers.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #204 on: October 29, 2009, 09:06:16 pm »
    [Mayhem] 10: 10 builders, 1 floater.

    I've reduced the number of builders to 6, so at the moment, it's 6 Builders & 1 Floater.

    Make that 5 builders. :)


    [Mayhem] 9: 7 builders, 5 bashers

    I've got the minimum number of bashers down to 2.  Now to see if any improvements are possible on the builders...

    EDIT: Yes!  Minimum builders is now down to 5, glitch-free.  So for Mayhem 9 we now have 5 builders & 2 bashers.

    Possible with 1 basher.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #205 on: October 29, 2009, 10:55:16 pm »
    Improvements to Blitz:

    1: 4 builders. This is just the standard solution. (All but the first 3 poles are safe to fall from)
    2: 9 builders and 1 digger.
    Spoiler (click to show/hide)
    5: 6 builders thanks to a steel glitch, replay attached
    8: 2 builders and 1 basher (not 2)
    9: 8 builders, replay attached
    10: 2 builders
    12: 1 bomber, 1 digger (this level has no builders, so I have no idea where the score of "6 builders" came from)
    13: 8 builders
    15: 9 climbers, 1 floater, 1 bomber, 1 basher (see attached replay)

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #206 on: October 30, 2009, 07:54:27 am »
    I'm really itching to get this finished now.  :D

    As I mentioned earlier, both levels of Xmas 91 are improvable, to "none" and 1 builder, respectively. I got Xmas 92 level 3 down to 7 builders as well. Replays for these three are attached. But...

    Xmas 92
    1: 1 basher
    2: None
    3: 10 builders, 1 floater
    4: 1 climber, 9 builders, 3 diggers.

    I can't find any way to do level 4 without using both climbers.


    Only 6 levels to go and we'll have the whole set. Still to do:

    Taxing 28
    Mayhem 1, 18, 19, 29, 30.

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #207 on: October 30, 2009, 08:46:12 am »
    Mayhem 18  can be done with only builders, so it's simply a matter of minimizing those. I'll give it a go now.
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #208 on: October 30, 2009, 09:02:17 am »
    Done with 11 builders, but I'm pretty sure a few more steel glitches could lower it further. Replay attached.

    Mayhem 19 can be done without climbers, and 3 bombers is the minimum. The only question is fewest builders, which is however many is needed to reach the absolute lowest point you can get the bombers to, plus one to cover the gap on the left - most likely 5, maybe 6.
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #209 on: October 30, 2009, 09:05:03 am »
    I did a "least builders" run on this level in the challenge thread. I ended up using 8. I don't know if it's possible to do better with sliding, but given the abundance of steel and fairly high percentage requirement, I doubt it.

    I still have the replay - I don't remember if I ever uploaded it. (EDIT: attached)

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #210 on: November 16, 2009, 08:29:55 pm »
    Taxing 28: The least-skills solution (7 skills total) uses 3 builders, and no blockers or bombers, and can be adapted to a no-bashers solution. Both the climber and miner can be avoided with a solution that starts by building up from the floor. 1 floater, 3 builders.

    (edit: Wow, Taxing can be done with no climbers. That's a nice little surprise :D)


    Mayhem 1: With no climbers available, there's little opportunity (besides the final part) to save builders through steel glitches. I got this down to 15 builders (replay attached - for reference, the least-skills solution uses 17). 1 floater, 15 builders.

    Mayhem 19: I don't know how namida plans on doing this with 5 builders, since the best I can manage is 7 :-\  (replay attached) 3 bombers, 7 builders.

    Mayhem 29: Rather annoyingly, the tight skill and % limits appear to require one more digger and blocker than I'd like. Replays attached with 10 builders and no bashers. 3 blockers, 10 builders, 1 digger.

    This leaves Mayhem 29 and 30, which I'll try now.

    EDIT: Mayhem 30 almost certainly comes to 8 builders. I'll have to run through and confirm this, which may take a while...

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #211 on: November 16, 2009, 10:38:12 pm »
    Confirmed: Mayhem 30 with 8 builders.

    And that's the lot. Totals are now up in the first post. And don't forget, some improvements may be possible...

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #212 on: November 17, 2009, 05:44:43 am »
    Now that everything's finished, it's a good opportunity to move to this thread. ;P
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #213 on: November 17, 2009, 06:20:06 am »
    OK, I know. We'll weight the skills according to how many you "can't live without":

    Blockers: 20 points
    Miners: 22 points
    Floaters: 57 points
    Bombers: 60 points
    Climbers: 61 points
    Diggers: 65 points
    Bashers: 72 points
    Builders: 711 points

    Can't say fairer than that ;)

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #214 on: November 17, 2009, 08:17:40 am »
    Hm... I don't think we want to have 711 points... perhaps more reasonable would be from 3 to 10 points (rather than 1 to 8, so it's a bit more balanced), based on the ranking here - the most needed being worth the most points.

    But it should be discussed in that topic anyway.
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline alfonz1986

    • Posts: 73
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #215 on: February 16, 2010, 01:46:32 am »
    Replay of Wild 3 Builders Only

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #216 on: August 14, 2011, 09:05:56 pm »
    I'm reviving this thread because I just found an improvement:

    Havoc 11: 9 Builders (The previous result was 11.)

    Obviously this uses the ceiling route, as did the 11-builder solution.  The 9-builder solution takes the ceiling route even farther, so to speak.

    Quote from: Hint
    Four builders are needed at the start to reach the top of the steel.  Four more are needed to navigate the two sets of hanging vines between the steel walls, and the last is used to free the crowd.  The exit is reached via direct drop.
    I'm also not going to rule out the possibility of getting it down to 8 builders by using the release rate as a means of crowd control.  It would get really hairy, though, and I'm not sure I'd have the patience for it.

    Finally, alfonz1986 found a no-blocker solution to Wicked 9, which he posted here.

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #217 on: August 15, 2011, 12:24:26 am »
    Cool. :thumbsup: It looks like the Havoc 11 record was set by minimac, so one would think it would've been improved later, yet it seems Clam never did when he subsequently go through the Havoc levels in that thread.

    Your solution reads so much like the ceiling route for that level I know for the min-skill thread (ie. everything you said in spoilers match that solution, at least from what I remember), I'm going to have to take a look later tonight and see if/how it differs.  Might just be a level where no one at the time cared to improve because it seemed tedious?

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #218 on: August 15, 2011, 07:30:32 am »
    Good job, LemSteven :thumbsup:. It's very easy to overlook things in this challenge, since you have to consider every skill type on every level, and there are a lot of levels (290 "official" levels in all). I may not have even been aware of the ceiling-direct-drop route on this level at the time - it's not one of my favourites :-\. But, with all that said, I can now confirm 8 builders for Havoc 11 - not by controlling the crowd with the release rate, but by using the miner positioning glitch to cross the first gap in the vines with one builder. Replay attached :) (edit: I should add, this leaves a diagonal-pixel gap that the lemmings will fall through when walking left, so it's unlikely this can be combined with RR to give a 7-builder solution.)


    (edit: updated OP)

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #219 on: August 15, 2011, 08:42:21 am »
    Your solution reads so much like the ceiling route for that level I know for the min-skill thread (ie. everything you said in spoilers match that solution, at least from what I remember), I'm going to have to take a look later tonight and see if/how it differs.  Might just be a level where no one at the time cared to improve because it seemed tedious?

    I found my min-skill solution and it turns out I purposely abandoned the direct-drop solution there halfway, because it actually uses up more skills total, even though it obviously would've used less builders to continue on with the ceiling.  I think minimac just took my min-skill solution to report the 11 builders.  Pity it took this long for someone to catch on! :-\ :P

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #220 on: August 15, 2011, 09:00:06 am »
    And here I found a full ceiling-route Havoc-11 solution I've posted ages ago, not for this thread, but rather the "skills to one lemming only" challenge thread (thus the non-optimality wrt to this challenge, though it's still very close to what I'm sure LemSteven did).  By then we've all but of course forgot about this challenge thread. :-\ ;P

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #221 on: October 04, 2011, 10:27:48 am »
    The "fewest types of skills" thread got me to do a closer look at Havoc 7, and I've managed to reduce the record here from 5 builders to 4 builders.  See attached replay.  One of the glitches used may be worth pointing out:

    Quote from: spoiler
    What I did towards the end with the crowd on the right:  the blocker is set to temporarily "disable" portions of the exit, allowing another lemming to mine without exiting, yet still leaves exit- triggering terrain (after freeing the blocker of course) on the path he creates for the left crowd.
    --------

    Also, a gentle reminder to update the OP table for Wicked 10 per this post (7 builders, not 8).  Actually, looking back at the solution I wonder if one less builder is possible?

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #222 on: October 10, 2011, 09:27:02 pm »
    Update to Mayhem 21, a no-climber solution.  Not sure why it was missed, maybe because no one wanted to do this level due to the 50 floaters. :-\

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #223 on: October 11, 2011, 01:32:49 am »
    I found a 3-builder solution to Crazy 8. I've tried various ways of saving another builder, and also the basher, but no success on those so far.

    EDIT: Success! Completed with no bashers, replay attached. The score for this level is now 3 builders.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #224 on: October 11, 2011, 11:21:23 pm »
    Crazy 20 improved to 5 builders. Despite what I said in an earlier post, you can cross the first gap with the icicle with a single builder, without losing a lemming from the right side. All it takes is some frantic bashing and blocking :)

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #225 on: October 11, 2011, 11:36:18 pm »
    Neat! :thumbsup: It's also rare to find humor on the challenge threads, yet something about the frantic bashing next to the builder inspires both awe and giggles from me at the same time. :D :-\  Must think about making use of this in a custom level one of these days.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #226 on: October 12, 2011, 06:11:28 am »
    And yet another improvement: I found a way to complete Wild 14 with no builders, which means the result for this level is none.

    Curiously, all of these last three levels were originally posted here by me, without replays, and haven't been mentioned by anyone else in this topic. So, if you want to find some potentially improvable scores, you know where to look ;)

    No-bashers is replay-worthy too, attached.


    EDIT: And another one! Crazy 15 improved to 2 builders.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #227 on: October 12, 2011, 10:06:20 am »
    And here's Wicked 8 with 1 climber (the previous result included 2 climbers).

    That's 8 skills off in just over a week :o. I suppose given the nature of this challenge (essentially combining all challenges of the form "solve this level with at most x of skill y"), it was inevitable that we'd miss a lot on the first run through. Just goes to show, the old challenge threads are still very much alive, and it's good to see challenges in general are active again 8).

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #228 on: October 12, 2011, 01:25:52 pm »
    Just goes to show, the old challenge threads are still very much alive, and it's good to see challenges in general are active again 8).

    I'll be the first to admit you're the star of the Lemmings 1 and ONML challenge threads here, no questions about it.  So basically it'll be alive whenever you feel like it and aren't distracted by such things as Minecraft or what not. ;P  (And a scary earthquake every now and then...  :XD:)

    ---------------------

    And now, to fill my role as "minor incremental improver of Clam's brilliant solutions": ;)

    I found a 3-builder solution to Crazy 8. I've tried various ways of saving another builder, and also the basher, but no success on those so far.

    To complement your success with the basher, I am able to save another builder from your solution by not having to waste a blocker, so that the final basher is stopped with a blocker (with very careful field alignment, otherwise the lemmings get pushed too far right and can't slide) instead of a builder.  So down to 2 builders now.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #229 on: October 12, 2011, 08:01:55 pm »
    I'll be the first to admit you're the star of the Lemmings 1 and ONML challenge threads here, no questions about it.

    Hah, I'd have said the same about you. We're both way too modest :D

    As for challenge activity, I don't want to feel like I'm running the whole challenges section by myself (or the forum as a whole, for that matter). For one thing, you've already seen how one person (even if he is a "star") can miss possible improvements to challenge scores. It also keeps me from spending too much time on Lemmings when I should be doing something else :P. So, I don't consider the challenges active unless other people are participating too.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #230 on: October 12, 2011, 11:54:06 pm »
    edit: post removed, reported Mayhem 18 with 6 builders.

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #231 on: October 13, 2011, 01:20:16 am »
    I revisited Mayhem 18 (previous result: 8 builders), and found a solution using only 6 builders. This is definitely a must-see, and like Wild 17 no-bashers it only barely works with the available skills and % requirement.

    Hmm, I must be missing something here, I would've thought you could be more builder-efficient if you bomb away the wall separating the two lower groups?  Guess I need to study the solution more carefully to see whether it works or why it won't.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #232 on: October 13, 2011, 01:42:08 am »
    Never crossed my mind. :-[

    edit: Fine, my day is ruined. Go on and finish it, I have other things I need to do.

    /ragequit

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #233 on: October 13, 2011, 02:37:21 am »
     :D :XD: :-\

    Well, I guess I can work on something else and come back to this later, if you haven't decided to redeem yourself by then.  Or maybe someone else will take a pass at it for a change?

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #234 on: October 13, 2011, 08:15:12 am »
    /un-ragequit

    All right, I couldn't stay away from it. :XD:

    Mayhem 18 improved to 3 builders.

    As it turns out, most of the tricks I figured out for the earlier solution came into play again. Which is to be expected, I guess :-\. Just goes to show, a small oversight can make a huge difference. And, as I alluded to above, this is why it's not good to be doing the challenges all by yourself; another set of eyes really helps :)
    All in all, I'd say this was a top-class collaborative effort (:

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #235 on: October 14, 2011, 06:56:11 am »
    I had another run through the holiday '93 levels, and saved another 5 skills :)

    Flurry 10 improved to 3 builders (was 4), by devising a method of scaling the awkward exit platform with no builders.
    Blitz 1 improved to 3 builders (again, was 4). This is another one from the 'how has no one managed to improve on my score by now?' file, not even replay-worthy (but included it anyway ;))
    Blitz 6 improved to none (previously 1 basher, now done away with :))
    Blitz 15 improved to 8 climbers (was 9), 1 floater, 1 bomber, 1 basher.
    Blitz 16 improved to 1 bomber (was 2), 1 builder, 1 basher.

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #236 on: October 14, 2011, 12:26:33 pm »
    Typical of the cross-pollination between this topic and the "fewest skill types" topic, my work there on Blitz 2 has just eliminated the digger.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #237 on: October 16, 2011, 03:05:21 am »
    Hail 3 sux improved to 9 builders, with a bit of miner glitching to duck under the top of the map.
    Hail 5 improved to 6 floaters 6 builders, surprisingly simple actually.
    Hail 7 has already been reported at 14 skills total , but currently reads 15 builders here. Sadly there's no replay in that thread, and I can't reproduce it right now, but I did manage it with 14 builders + climber, which is good enough for this challenge.
    Hail 8 is possibly doable with 5 builders instrad of 6, but would take some extreme releaserate jiggery-pokery that I can't be bothered with right now.

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #238 on: October 16, 2011, 07:12:56 pm »
    Havoc 17 reduced to 2 builders.  This one needs a bit of "releaserate jiggery-pokery" to work. ;)

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #239 on: October 16, 2011, 09:14:45 pm »
    Confirmed Hail 8 with 5 builders. Turns out I didn't need to play around with the release rate after all (besides the obligatory switch to RR99).

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #240 on: October 23, 2011, 05:37:45 pm »
    Here's a no-basher solution for Taxing 17.  I even got it save 100% to help with minimac's latest challenge topic.

    Some preliminary testing also suggests that no-builder might be plausible, but it'll take a little more time for me to work it out for real.

    Quote from: spoiler
    It is possible to gain a walkable height of 9 pixels via the following skills: basher, bomber, miner, climber, bomber.  Use this in two places, and then for each place, make up for rest of needed height via other means.

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #241 on: October 24, 2011, 11:18:54 am »
    Some preliminary testing also suggests that no-builder might be plausible

    Confirmed!  So Taxing 17 down to none finally.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #242 on: October 28, 2011, 02:57:49 am »
    Fun 28 improved to 4 builders. Sadly, 100% doesn't seem likely, since the key builder-saving move involves using a basher or miner on a bridge in progress, and either way it looks like that lemming is toast (literally :P) due to the lava below.

    It is possible, with better timing, to make the miner glitch-cross the gap into the pillar, but that leaves a gap in the bridge, which presents its own problems. But still, that's probably the only hope of 100% here.

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #243 on: October 28, 2011, 03:28:04 am »
    Fun 28 improved to 4 builders. Sadly, 100% doesn't seem likely, since the key builder-saving move involves using a basher or miner on a bridge in progress, and either way it looks like that lemming is toast (literally :P) due to the lava below.

    It is possible, with better timing, to make the miner glitch-cross the gap into the pillar, but that leaves a gap in the bridge, which presents its own problems. But still, that's probably the only hope of 100% here.

    Hmm okay, is it fair then to say at least that 100% is possible (with suitable confirmation from you) with 5 builders then?  Given that the normal "build to exit" needs 6 this would still be an improvement.

    Offline Clam

    • Posts: 2188
    • Smiley: :8():
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #244 on: October 28, 2011, 04:29:32 am »
    Good point ;)

    And, predictably, the answer is yes.

    Offline finlay

    • Posts: 529
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #245 on: October 29, 2011, 02:47:15 pm »
    How do you do Mayhem 21 with 21 floaters?

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #246 on: October 29, 2011, 03:04:59 pm »
    another of Clam's awesome (and glitch-free in this case) ideas: http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=98.msg1821#msg1821

    It's also fair to say that there's a bit of optical illusion at work here, as the fall's not really that far away from a safe fall as it might look.

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #247 on: August 10, 2012, 09:10:02 pm »
    Frost 6 improved to 1 blocker, 4 builders, thanks to a rather straightforward solution found as part of this challenge.  (See this post for attached replay.)

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #248 on: September 25, 2013, 06:22:19 am »
    To revisit an oldie...

    Quote
    Tricky
    18: 1 bomber, 1 digger

    Replay without using the bomber attached. =)
    Doesn't acheive 100% (you need both builders to delay the crowd until the fall is safe, thus leaving you with no way to stop the digger), but hey. Still one less skill required. =P
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline Proxima

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 3408
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #249 on: September 25, 2013, 08:13:51 pm »
    Awesome!!!

    I've amended the totals, and added this to "skills needed for max%" as well.

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #250 on: September 25, 2013, 09:50:07 pm »
    Cool, and a new(?) clever technique for use in custom levels as well. :thumbsup: I love how there's still something new to learn after so many years.

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #251 on: September 26, 2013, 04:08:00 am »
    Not entirely new - the trick (or rather, a very similar one) is used in the intended solution to "A Perfect Nightmare" from LP DOS. However, there's also a backroute, somewhat negating it. xD
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #252 on: November 07, 2013, 06:44:26 am »
    I found another improvement (and another example of challenge threads feeding off of each other)  8)

    Wicked 17: 4 builders.

    Quote from: spoiler
    The first lemming builds as soon as he lands, and the second climbs and builds up ahead, such that he lands on the platform above the right exit.  Meanwhile the third and fourth lemmings build such that they reach the post on the right, but don't turn around.  Three lemmings will reach the post before the bridge is done, so they all climb up.  If the rightmost bridge is placed properly, none of the climbers will fall short of the platform above the exit.  One final blocker turns everyone around by the exit.

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #253 on: November 10, 2013, 03:37:38 pm »
    Yep, cross-pollination from other challenges has lead me to improve Havoc 13 down to 2 builders via sliding.

    Offline Luis

    • Posts: 447
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #254 on: February 10, 2014, 04:21:18 am »
    I startled doing this challenge with those 36 levels from the PSP version. I need to update the Lemmix version of Dig Down, Bash Across, for it to be more similar to the real one. There's a chain that you can dig down to reach the bottom without basher. You can already do that but in a different and longer way. I just wanted to let everyone know why it's been updated yet again. At first it wasn't needed if you're playing the level normally but for this challenge, it's necessary. I tried reading posts to understand how the challenge works.



    Mr. Lemmings PSP user.

    Offline Luis

    • Posts: 447
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #255 on: February 10, 2014, 08:14:24 pm »
    Thanks to this challenge, I'm finding mistakes in the levels but that also means more fixing. :( This is what I got so far.

    1.Climb to victory
    1 Climber

    2.Save the Lemmings with Floaters
    1 Climber 1 Floater

    3. Dig Down, Bash Across
    1 Climber 1 Basher

    4. Block first, Explode second
    2 Blocker 2 Bomber

    5. Bridge Across, Mine Through
    3 Builder 2 Miner

    6. Bash in the Direction of the Arrows
    1 Builder 4 Basher

    7. Crystal point
    4 Builder 3 Basher

    8. So near, so far
    5 Climber 2 Builder

    9. Pillar talking
    5 Builder

    10. Just 17
    2 Builder 2 Basher

    11. Down the line
    2 Basher 1 Digger
    Mr. Lemmings PSP user.

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #256 on: February 10, 2014, 08:38:42 pm »
    Can you remind me where I can download the PSP levels you remade?

    Offline Luis

    • Posts: 447
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #257 on: February 10, 2014, 11:53:34 pm »
    Their in the database. I'm currently fixing level 10 Just 17. I already have the results for that level, I'm just fixing the alternative solution where you go to the bottom. It uses more skills, so it's not better than the top path, which is the intended one. In Pillar talking, if you dig on the pillar, you're forced to use builder or miner to stop him, because in the old Lemmings a digger will keep digging even though he's only removing the edge, like this:

    Mr. Lemmings PSP user.

    Offline Luis

    • Posts: 447
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #258 on: February 11, 2014, 11:31:46 pm »
    Seeing double! has steel terrains that are breakable and because of this, you can beat it with one less basher. Should I remove the steel in the Lemmix version and make it possible to break it there too, or should I just leave it there? This can cause both the PSP and Lemmix version of this level to have different results, if I leave it there.
    Mr. Lemmings PSP user.

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #259 on: February 12, 2014, 12:40:04 am »
    Up to you.  I guess it would be a nice bonus if every solution that works on the PSP also works on the Lemmix version.  For me, I think I would worry more about having solutions that only works in the Lemmix version and is much easier than the intended solutions on PSP, in other words backroutes that are specific to Lemmix.

    Offline Luis

    • Posts: 447
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #260 on: February 12, 2014, 03:36:37 pm »
    I removed the steel so the level can resemble the real one more. I also took out the ones in Release is the word. There's actually a solution that only works in Lemmix in Tunnel vision, that was found by Akseli.  You can beat it without using basher. The miner can destroy pieces of terrains that are behind him and it creates a ceiling that stops climbers from going where the top entrance is. I put a replay in the attachment so you can see it. Here's the link to the level:
    http://lemmings-db.camanis.net/levelpack/ag1zfmxlbW1pbmdzLWRichYLEglMZXZlbFBhY2sYgICAgKCSnwoM/

    12. A to B
    2 Basher

    13. Chain reaction
    5 Bombers

    14. Tunnel vision
    5 Climber 1 Builder 1 Basher 1 Miner
    Lemmix doesn't need bashers

    15. Two good friends
    1 Basher 1 Digger

    16. One man does all the hard work
    1 Builder 1 Basher

    17. Release is the word
    2 Builder

    18. The run around
    1 Climber 4 Builder 2 Basher

    19 Three steps to heaven
    7 Builder

    20. Lemming toast
    2 Builder

    21. Seeing double!
    2 Climber 1 Blocker 2 Builder 3 Basher

    22. The Wormery
    6 Builder 2 Miner

    23. The Flood
    7 Builder 3 Basher

    24. ...with a little help from my Lem
    2 Climbler 3 Basher 2 Digger

    25. Not as easy as it looks
    3 Digger

    26. Back of the net!
    1 Blocker 2 Basher

    27. Wrong points of view
    4 Builder

    28. Float in Light, at Lemming Head Height
    1 Floater 3 Builder

    29. A Bridge Over Lemming Slaughter
    3 Builder 2 Basher

    30. The stairs are not floored
    2. Builder

    31. Quickly now
    5 Builder

    32. Gather round and break away
    1 Builder

    33. Cagey business
    1 Floater 5 Builder 1 Basher

    34. Born a blocker, die a blocker
    10 Climber 9 Blocker

    35. No justice for the hero
    1 Builder 1 Digger 1 Miner

    36. Notch what you thin it is!
    1 Builder 1 Digger
    Mr. Lemmings PSP user.

    Offline Luis

    • Posts: 447
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #261 on: February 18, 2014, 09:10:34 pm »
    I finished it.

    28 Climber

    2 Floater

    7 Bomber

    4 Blocker

    72 Builder

    33 Basher

    5 Miner

    7 Digger
    Mr. Lemmings PSP user.

    Offline Proxima

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 3408
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #262 on: February 18, 2014, 09:40:43 pm »
    Excellent work! I've added these to the first post, though, as Lemmings PSP is a separate platform, I haven't added them to the grand total.

    Offline Luis

    • Posts: 447
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #263 on: February 18, 2014, 09:47:27 pm »
    I also did the challenge on the remakes of the PSP levels in Lemmix. You can download the them in the database and test it yourself. The total number of bashers in Lemmix is 32, since it doesn't need basher in Tunnel vision.
    Mr. Lemmings PSP user.

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #264 on: May 22, 2014, 06:26:05 am »
    Covox Lemmings Demo
    Fun 1: None. This is easy.
    Fun 2: It can be solved using only builders. I can't do it with no builders, but I managed a 1-builder solution, thanks to the overly generous amount of climbers (well everything really, but climbers is what was useful here). Someone who's better at the precise timing needed can probably reduce that to zero with the blocker-push-into-wall glitch.
    Tricky 1: Again, one builder. Kind of obvious where you need it; the remainder can be handled by the ol' alternate-bashers-and-diggers-to-create-steep-ramp trick.
    Tricky 2: 21 Climbers, 1 Bomber, 2 Builders. No way around it, you need every skill you're given.

    I'll do the remaining 4 levels another time, unless someone else does them first.
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #265 on: June 05, 2014, 09:25:53 am »
    Taxing 1: You can get the builders down to 7 fairly easily (well, it does take advantage of an oversight and one minor trick, replay attached anyway). Anything else can be eliminated pretty easily except for 1 basher. So final answer seems to be 7 builders, 1 basher.

    Taxing 2: 7 builders are required to get to the exit. Everything else can be eliminated very easily.

    Mayhem 1: 2 builders. This is insanely easy.

    Mayhem 2: None. Also very easy. The one point that may be tricky is the traps - but their positioning is such that even on such a thin platform, you can dig and bash under them to bypass them.



    Unless there's something I missed on Tricky 2 (and I highly doubt it), I'd say the only room for improvement in any of these is Fun 2. As I said; I'm sure someone with more patience than me can knock off that last builder.
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #266 on: January 07, 2015, 10:49:56 am »
    Prima
    Fun 1 - None. This is easy.
    Fun 2 - 1 Climber, 1 Blocker, 1 Builder, 1 Miner, 1 Digger. The bomber is obviously not needed but everything else seems to be essential. I can get 97% without using either the blocker or the digger (but using the bomber), or 96% with only the climber, the bomber and the builder. But it requires 98%.
    Fun 3 - None, also an easy one.
    Fun 4 - 2 Builders, 1 Basher. Replay attached, but it's really just a matter of using the terrain to create a wall with only two builders instead of needing three. There might be more, but I could only find one exact place where this could be done, and both builders needed to be pixel-precise. (Worth noting is that it's possible without the basher under CustLemm mechanics, but not under OhNo mechanics which is what (AFAIK) Prima uses. This solution simply involves a three-builder wall and the other 7 builders to build over the obstacle. The fall however is too far under OhNo mechanics; while you could build to a direct drop into the exit if you were to use the same two-builder wall from my replay, as far as I can tell there's no way to keep the crowd at bay long enough to do so.)

    Tricky 1 - 1 Builder. This is simple.
    Tricky 2 - 6 Bombers. The remainder, you can choose between a blocker or two extra bombers, so only the 6 bombers are common to both.
    Tricky 3 - 1 Builder + 1 Digger is possible. 1 Floater + 1 Bomber + 1 Builder is possible. Both are fairly obvious solutions. I can't find any way without a builder so: 1 Builder.
    Tricky 4 - (see below) + 1 Digger can be done with a somewhat unusual trick (replay attached). There's an obvious solution with only two diggers. Given the level layout, it's very obvious you can't do it without at least one digger; so that's the answer here: 1 Digger.

    I'll do Taxing and Mayhem soon, probably.


    I highly recommend trying the one-digger solution to Tricky 4 for yourself before watching the replay. :)
    The total skills used in it are:
    Spoiler (click to show/hide)
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #267 on: January 07, 2015, 12:38:45 pm »
    Continuing with Prima...

    Taxing 1 - Can be solved with just builders plus a single floater. Minimum builders I can manage it with is 11, and this solution does not need a floater. It's not a very tricky solution, but it does take advantage of an oversight in the level's design that you'd probably notice anyway while attempting this. So: 11 Builders.
    Taxing 2 - There's at least one spot where you can dig to solve it with just a single digger (and a release rate change). It can also be solved fairly trivially with just the builders. So: None.
    Taxing 3 - Ugh, I hate this level even without challenges. So, I can manage 2 Builders, 2 Bashers, 2 Diggers. By exploiting the exact position of the trigger areas, it's also possible to do with 1 Floater and all of the destructive skills bar 2 diggers (eliminating the builders). The first solution, it's possible to substitute a miner for a digger with very good timing, but I can't reduce the bashers. So it seems: 2 Bashers, 1 Digger.
    Taxing 4 - Fairly obvious solution with 2 Blockers, 2 Builders and a Miner. (If you need a hint, cram the blockers as close together as possible and you should be able to work the rest out). A digger and a basher can substitute the miner, but due to the thin terrain and limited builders, I'm willing to say the blockers are the only way to contain the crowd, and 2 builders are absolutely essential to the solution, so: 2 Blockers, 2 Builders.

    Mayhem 1: The obvious solution here is a Builder and a Digger. A not-so-obvious one (direct drop xD) can be done with a Digger and a Floater. The digger is very clearly not avoidable. So: 1 Digger.
    Mayhem 2: Not going to try this one right now, it's the kind that's very annoying for this challenge. I'll probably come back to it later.
    Mayhem 3: A direct-drop variant of the obvious solution can be done with 1 Floater, 1 Bomber, 2 Blockers, 4 Builders. By stretching the builders as far as you can from the edge and placing two more after top-edge-hits, you can do this same solution without a floater. By using every spare builder you have as delays, you can do this same solution with only one blocker. I don't see any way to avoid the other blocker or at least 4 builders, so: 1 Blocker, 4 Builders.
    Mayhem 4: The only skill that isn't possible to rule out very easily is builders. As for the minimum of them, it's fairly easy to tell it won't be any lower than 7. While not overly hard, it isn't overly easy to do it either - but 7 is indeed doable. :) so: 7 Builders.

    WORTH NOTING: The Mayhem 3 1-blocker solution also saves 97% (78/80) lemmings, breaking the current record listed here. I've posted a replay in that topic.
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline Simon

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 2693
      • View Profile
      • Lix
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #268 on: January 07, 2015, 10:37:40 pm »
    At least in Dosbox, Prima-Tricky-4 can be done with 1 digger, 1 basher, finishing with 5 seconds left on the timer. RR to 99, dig the central pillar as far right as possible, bash to stop the digger. The crowd walks to the level's right and back in time.

    namida, what extra condition would you suggest to enforce the more interesting 1-digger route?

    Level codes for tricky: 2. DLCI JLL GCR, 3. HCAN LNL HCU, 4. CIOL LDL ICY.

    -- Simon

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #269 on: January 08, 2015, 01:37:42 am »
    I prefer "TRICKY2", "TRICKY3" and "TRICKY4" myself, yay for Lemmix. :P

    But anyway, while I'm not 100% sure that this'll enforce it (though it should), an additional requirement to make the more interesting solution: Solve the level in 1 minute.
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline Proxima

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 3408
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #270 on: April 23, 2018, 02:24:17 pm »
    So, nine years after we agreed on the necessary skills for Tricky 19, and three years after we thought the entire topic was finished, Nessy points out that it can be done without the digger.

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #271 on: April 24, 2018, 12:47:56 am »
    So, nine years after we agreed on the necessary skills for Tricky 19, and three years after we thought the entire topic was finished, Nessy points out that it can be done without the digger.

    Not quite. We still don't have any result for Mayhem 2 of Prima. :P
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #272 on: April 24, 2018, 03:27:54 am »
    So, nine years after we agreed on the necessary skills for Tricky 19, and three years after we thought the entire topic was finished, Nessy points out that it can be done without the digger.

    Nice one!  I just solved it without watching the video.  I'm truly shocked nobody found this one earlier, especially since I had experimented with a similar solution for the "Under 1 minute" thread.

    Offline ccexplore

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 4940
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #273 on: April 24, 2018, 08:08:26 am »
    So, nine years after we agreed on the necessary skills for Tricky 19, and three years after we thought the entire topic was finished, Nessy points out that it can be done without the digger.

    Nice one!  I just solved it without watching the video.  I'm truly shocked nobody found this one earlier, especially since I had experimented with a similar solution for the "Under 1 minute" thread.

    I can't replicate the youtube video in legacy Lemmix, the steps seem too wide and the basher stops after one stroke.  LemSteven/Proxima, did either of you have a chance to actually try it out in either Lemmix or DOS Lemmings?

    I'm not well versed enough in what mechanics were tweaked in NeoLemmix to apparently make it possible there, maybe someone else can chime in.

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #274 on: April 24, 2018, 08:38:06 am »
    I didn't see Nessy's solution in the video, but if it's what I think it is...

    Spoiler (click to show/hide)

    ...then no, this will not work on DOS / vanilla Lemmix. NeoLemmix's basher is a fair bit more sensitive than the DOS L1 basher.
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline Proxima

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 3408
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #275 on: April 24, 2018, 08:56:41 am »
    Hmm. I tested it on the Lemmix Player I have, but now that I look again at the player, it has "Lemmings, NeoLemmix Edition" on the main menu screen. Sorry about the confusion :( Where does one get vanilla Lemmix players these days?

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #276 on: April 25, 2018, 01:41:44 am »
    I did my solution in DOSBox, and it turns out it was completely different from Nessy's solution (which I believe doesn't work in DOS):

    The Basic Idea: (click to show/hide)

    Solution (click to show/hide)

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #277 on: May 25, 2019, 09:07:33 am »
    So, I decided to take a look at the last level that hasn't been looked at at all: Prima Mayhem 2: "Which way do we go?".

    My first result so far is 5 builders. I was able to navigate round the level saving all the other skills apart from builders, replays attached. The real question is whether it can be done with just 1 builder. The 100% requirement, the land being littered with traps and the turnaround needed to use the left exit makes this more challenging.

    Edit: Now down to 4. Didn't realise I had a basher left over in the 5 builder solution to bash underneath the first left trap.
    « Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 09:24:28 am by Minim »
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #278 on: August 02, 2019, 10:42:58 pm »
    So, I decided to take a look at L3D in this challenge. While it probably won't be as interesting as the L1-type games, the large number of backroutes might at least make it somewhat interesting.

    Here's some baseline suggestions for (most of) Fun.

    Fun 1 "Take A Dive" - 1 turner
    Fun 2 "That's Right" - 2 diggers (don't worry about crowd control, just use the diggers, and you'll save 4 more than required)
    Fun 3 "The Bean Machine" - 3 builders
    Fun 4 "It's A Run Around" - 1 turner, 2 diggers
    Fun 5 "Bounce Bounce" - 7 turners
    Fun 6 "It's A Blast" - 4 bombers
    Fun 7 "Candyland Climber" - 1 bomber, 1 basher, 2 climbers (I did quickly try a go-under-the-cane route, but I can only save 3 that way, and at any rate still use all of these skills)
    Fun 10 "Castle Lemmalot" - 2 builders (This is simply the save-all solution)
    Fun 12 "Alpine Assault Course" - 1 turner, 5 bombers
    Fun 13 "Tower Of Stone" - 13 turners, 2 builders, 20 floaters
    Fun 14 "Slippery Maze" - 6 turners (using the invisible route)
    Fun 15 "The M-A-Z-E" - 4 turners, 1 basher (I can find three different routes with these skills - one of which makes a huge improvement in terms of time taken - but none without them)
    Fun 16 "Down The Middle We Go" - 4 turners, 1 builder, 1 digger
    Fun 17 "Hole In Ten" - 1 blocker, 2 bashers, 1 floater
    Fun 18 "Corkscrew Digger", Fun 19 "Attack Of The 50ft Lemmings" - ??? (I'll leave these ones to the people who've found existing really-impressive solutions to these two levels, I suck at them)
    Fun 20 "Alilemms" - 4 turners, 1 builder
    « Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 11:15:53 pm by namida »
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #279 on: August 02, 2019, 11:00:06 pm »
    Fun 19 on 3D Lemmings is 2 turners.
    Spoiler (click to show/hide)
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #280 on: August 02, 2019, 11:34:10 pm »
    Continuing with L3D, here's a start on Tricky.

    Tricky 1 "Jelly Climber" - 2 turners, 8 climbers (this is just the normal solution, but letting two lemmings die instead of making them climbers)
    Tricky 2 "Which Exit?" - 2 blockers
    Tricky 3 "This Is The Army" - 1 bomber, 2 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 climber, 1 floater (basically just the normal solution, executed really carefully)
    Tricky 4 "Fore!" - 3 turners, 2 builders, 1 miner
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #281 on: August 02, 2019, 11:51:42 pm »
    Corkscrew Digger is currently 4 turners and 8 miners. 8 miners is the normal solution, and I see no way of improving on it at the moment. I have attached a replay for the 4 turner solution because it's quite messy.
    Spoiler (click to show/hide)
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #282 on: August 03, 2019, 03:40:23 am »
    Worked on the next 5 levels, and here's what I've come up with:

    Tricky 6 "Lemmhanger" - 2 blockers, 5 turners, 2 builders, 1 basher (the digger is not required to pass the level)
    Tricky 10 "Tooten Lemming" - 5 turners, 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #283 on: August 03, 2019, 03:52:54 am »
    I'll leave Tricky 11 for someone else, but for Tricky 12 "Dot To Dot", I suspect this route was already used in the max saved solution (I don't know for sure, I haven't tried to get max-saved on this one), which - without trying to save extra lemmings - uses 11 turners and 17 builders. (It is vaguely possible this route was overlooked, due to that it involves a frame-perfect builder assignment half way through - I knew the "skip from 4 to 9" solution a long time ago, but this one is "skip from 3 to 10" via the frame-perfect assignment.)

    EDIT: Nevermind, the max saved solution - when adjusted to not worry about saving as many as possible - reduces this to 5 turners + 11 builders (additionally requiring either a 6th turner or a bomber, but since either is an option, that doesn't matter for this challenge - and that's if that extra skill is still needed at all when not worrying about saving the max).
    « Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 04:38:47 am by namida »
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #284 on: August 03, 2019, 02:09:41 pm »
    Finishing off the rest of Tricky. There could be room for improvement for some of these.

    Tricky 11 "A Head Above the Rest" - 14 turners, 1 builder, 2 bashers

    Tricky 13 "Shadow Maze" - 6 turners
    Tricky 16 "Lemlab" - 3 turners, 1 builder, 2 bashers
    Tricky 17 "Garden Maze" - 4 turners, 1 bomber, 1 climber (digger not required)
    Tricky 18 "Play Time" - 3 bashers, 1 digger, 1 climber (second climber not required)
    Tricky 19 "Stilt Walkers" - 4 turners, 2 builders
    Tricky 20 "King Coder's Tomb" - 5 turners, 1 builder, 1 digger
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #285 on: August 03, 2019, 08:08:59 pm »
    Having a butcher's at the first half of Taxing.

    Taxing 1 "Spaghetti Junction" - 6 turners
    Taxing 3 "Let the Race Begin" - 4 bombers, 4 builders, 4 bashers
    Taxing 4 "Poles Apart" - 1 turner, 5 builders, 4 bashers (climber and floater not needed)
    Taxing 7 "If the Timing Is Right!" - 5 turners, 1 builder, 3 bashers, 1 digger
    Taxing 8 "Rescue Team" - 9 turners, 4 bashers
    Taxing 9 "Which Trampoline?" - 6 turners
    « Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 08:18:50 pm by Pooty »
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #286 on: August 07, 2019, 03:33:16 am »
    Tricky 19 "Stilt Walkers" - 4 turners, 2 builders

    Reduced to 2 turners, 1 builder

    2 Turners (click to show/hide)

    1 Builder (click to show/hide)

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #287 on: August 07, 2019, 06:04:43 am »
    Taxing 11 "Chaos Maze" - 3 turners, 1 digger, 1 climber (Max saved solution uses that + 1 basher; solving without the basher is trivial; there's nowhere the wall is only 1 block high so climber + digger are very clearly required)
    Taxing 13 "Motherboard" - 1 blocker, 2 turners, 1 builder (I spent a bit of time looking for other solutions, but didn't find any)
    Taxing 14 "Away Team" - 5 turners
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #288 on: August 07, 2019, 10:21:37 am »
    Taxing 16 "The Arena" - 1 turner, 1 bomber, 1 builder maybe? (I didn't solve this - but the record is lose-2, and I'm pretty sure this level can't be done without the turner and builder, meaning 1 bomber?)
    Taxing 17 "T Minus 5 And Counting" - None (the 100% solution uses only one skill, a basher; the same route can be done, lose-1, with a bomber replacing the basher)
    Taxing 18 "Snake" - 1 blocker, 16 turners, 3 bombers (the max-saved solution achieves 3 bombers; however there aren't enough spare bombers to use this trick with the otherwise-normal solution and save a turner)

    Regarding Mayhem 1 - I think it's possible to eliminate some skills, even though the normal way uses everything. However, in both cases, the timing required is insane, so I'm probably not going to be able to pull it off myself. I can't say for sure these are possible.
    My ideas for Mayhem 1 (click to show/hide)
    « Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 08:28:42 pm by namida »
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #289 on: August 07, 2019, 12:19:05 pm »
    Taxing 11 "Chaos Maze" - 3 turners, 1 digger, 1 climber

    Chaos Maze has been reduced to 3 turners, removing the digger and climber.
    Spoiler (click to show/hide)

    [Stilt Walkers] Reduced to 2 turners, 1 builder

    Nice one. It was this level in particular I was having an issue with. I felt there was something, but I could not pull it off. :thumbsup:

    But wait a minute... your two-turner solution saves 57 lemmings. The record at the time of posting is 56. That is a new record!
    « Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 12:43:00 pm by Pooty »
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #290 on: August 07, 2019, 08:24:55 pm »
    Mayhem 2 "Brenchin's Staircase" - 3 blockers, 2 turners, 3 bombers, 3 bashers, 4 climbers (I simply can't see a way to save ANY skill on this one)
    « Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 09:12:30 pm by namida »
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #291 on: August 07, 2019, 08:37:07 pm »
    Going back to Mayhem 1 "The Five Arches" - I've now found a way to save 1 climber that doesn't rely on crazy timing - RR 99 at the start, and have a walker instead of the climber bomb to stop the digger on the first block; you can then re-use this climber for another of the climber-required tasks. I'm not sure if it will be possible to combine this with my timing-based idea and end up saving 2 climbers - I haven't ruled it out, but I'm also not particularly interested in trying to pull off something that finnicky. Aside from that one climber, it still uses all the skills.

    This puts Mayhem 1's confirmed results at 2 bombers, 1 builder, 3 diggers, 2 climbers; with theoretical solutions that might eliminate 1 bomber and another climber.
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #292 on: August 08, 2019, 02:58:03 am »
    But wait a minute... your two-turner solution saves 57 lemmings. The record at the time of posting is 56. That is a new record!

    Good catch!  I realized the same thing late last night, but I had already turned out the light to go to sleep and I had to get up early this morning.  I updated the record in the Max Saved thread.


    Here's a no-climber solution:

    Spoiler (click to show/hide)
    « Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 03:56:26 am by LemSteven »

    Offline Minim

    • Moderator
    • Posts: 1442
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #293 on: August 08, 2019, 03:02:10 pm »
    Hi there! It's great to see the Challenge boards being revived again. I've updated the OP and added the 3D Lemmings results, except for Taxing 16, because I'm a bit confused by the result on one of the posts.

    Taxing 16 "The Arena" - 1 turner, 1 bomber, 1 builder maybe? (I didn't solve this - but the record is lose-2, and I'm pretty sure this level can't be done without the turner and builder, meaning 1 bomber?)

    So namida. Is this your confirmed result so far for this level, or have you not solved it at all yet?
    The user formerly known as minimac

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #294 on: August 08, 2019, 06:36:27 pm »
    Continuing with Mayhem.

    Mayhem 4 "Ski Jump" - 2 turners, 2 builders, 2 bashers, 1 climber, 1 floater
    Mayhem 5 "The Prisoner" - 3 bombers, 1 builder, 1 digger, 5 floaters
    Mayhem 6 "Family Tree" - 7 turners (attempted a 6-turner solution, was short by just 2 lemmings)
    Mayhem 9 "Over the Top" - 1 turner, 1 builder, 1 digger, 2 climbers (floater not needed)

    If there's something I've said that doesn't make sense (of if there's something I've not said that should be), let me know. This was a very long post.

    Taxing 16 "The Arena" - 1 turner, 1 bomber, 1 builder maybe? (I didn't solve this - but the record is lose-2, and I'm pretty sure this level can't be done without the turner and builder, meaning 1 bomber?)

    So namida. Is this your confirmed result so far for this level, or have you not solved it at all yet?

    I am able to confirm that The Arena can be completed with 1 turner, 1 bomber and 1 builder.

    "The Arena" bomber timing (click to show/hide)
    « Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 06:50:41 pm by Pooty »
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #295 on: August 08, 2019, 11:02:11 pm »
    A few more from Discord:

    Mayhem 11 "Across The Network" - 2 turners, 1 builder, 1 basher
    Mayhem 14 "Jelly Belly Islands" - 2 turners, 3 builders
    Mayhem 17 "Critical Path" - 2 bashers
    Mayhem 20 "Final Maze" - 1 turner

    Except for Mayhem 13, all these results are Pooty's.
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #296 on: August 09, 2019, 03:34:05 pm »
    I've completed the rest of Mayhem. Here are the results and explanations.

    Mayhem 13 "The Catacombs" - 15 turners (see namida's post above)
    Mayhem 14 "Jelly Belly Islands" - 2 turners, 3 builders
    Mayhem 16 "Fun Fair" - 1 blocker, 5 turners, 4 builders, 1 miner, 1 digger, 6 climbers
    Mayhem 19 "Tuther Circus Level" - 1 bomber, 1 builder, 3 bashers, 2 climbers (blocker not needed)
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline LemSteven

    • Posts: 497
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #297 on: August 10, 2019, 01:28:12 am »

    I got this one down to 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger

    Spoiler (click to show/hide)

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #298 on: August 10, 2019, 02:13:47 am »
    Taxing 12 "Team Work" improved to 4 builders, 1 basher.

    Spoiler (click to show/hide)
    « Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 05:59:27 am by namida »
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #299 on: August 10, 2019, 11:00:19 am »
    Taxing 8 "Rescue Team" reduced to 7 turners + 4 bashers.

    Spoiler (click to show/hide)
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #300 on: August 10, 2019, 11:05:09 am »
    Taxing 18 "Snake", the blocker is not needed (so: 16 turners + 3 bombers). Just do the max-saved solution, but let the lemmings that turn around die instead of using the blocker; you'll still save enough.
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #301 on: August 10, 2019, 05:34:14 pm »
    Mayhem 1 has been reduced to 2 bombers, 1 builder, 2 diggers, 2 climbers (difference: -1 digger)
    Spoiler (click to show/hide)
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #302 on: August 10, 2019, 07:47:48 pm »
    I have recently found a solution that increases the number of lemmings saved in Taxing 18: "Snake". This solution reduces the number of turners used by 10, so the latest score on that level is 6 turners, 3 bombers.
    SEGA Master System version
    100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
    Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
    Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
    Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
    Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #303 on: August 10, 2019, 10:43:59 pm »
    And I found a solution that further increases this to 68 69, in the process bringing the result for this level down to 4 turners, 3 bombers.
    « Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 10:59:59 pm by namida »
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #304 on: August 11, 2019, 12:07:20 am »
    Mayhem 7 "Driving Range" is now "none", thanks to this turner-free solution. It doesn't anywhere near improve on the number of lemmings saved, though.

    Spoiler (click to show/hide)
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline namida

    • Administrator
    • Posts: 9212
      • View Profile
      • NeoLemmix Website
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #305 on: August 11, 2019, 12:54:32 am »
    Tricky 8 "All Around The Watchtower" is also none.

    Spoiler (click to show/hide)

    EDIT: Added a replay, just in case. :)
    « Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 01:01:11 am by namida »
    My released level packs:
    Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

    Offline Pooty

    • Posts: 324
      • View Profile
    Re: What skills can't you live without?
    « Reply #306 on: August 11, 2019, 01:13:02 am »
    Mayhem 2 "Brechin's Staircase" has been improved to 3 blockers, 2 turners, 1 bomber, 3 bashers and 4 climbers (difference = -2 bombers).

    Spoiler (click to show/hide)