Author Topic: What skills can't you live without?  (Read 46165 times)

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Offline Clam

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What skills can't you live without?
« on: September 13, 2009, 04:00:30 am »
Since we started reviewing the Tame levels, it crossed my mind that there is only one skill that you're forced to use throughout all of Tame, that you can't pass the level without using - the builder on Tame 13. Aside from this one builder, you can avoid using each type of skill on every level, by using different skills instead. So, I would like to know: how does this situation look across the whole game?

Now for a (slightly technical) definition: The set of "skills you can't live without" on a level is the set of skills that is common to all solutions to the level - without using every skill in this set, you can't possibly beat the level.

EDIT: We now have a score for every level. Well done guys! :thumbsup:

(Total skill counts in brackets.)


Lemmings

Fun
1: 1 digger
2: 1 floater
3: 3 blockers
4: 10 climbers, 1 miner
5: 3 bashers
6: 1 bomber
7: 2 builders
13: 3 diggers
15: 2 builders
16: 4 builders
18: 5 bombers
19: 2 builders
20: 1 builder
28: 4 builders
All others: none.
Total: 10 climbers, 1 floater, 6 bombers, 3 blockers, 15 builders, 3 bashers, 1 miner, 4 diggers. (43, 1.43 per level)

Tricky
1: 1 builder
2: 5 diggers
3: 1 builder
4: 5 builders
5: 3 builders
6: 2 builders
7: 7 builders
8: 8 builders
10: 4 builders
12: 1 floater
13: 3 builders
14: 4 builders
15: 3 bombers
16: 4 bombers
17: 2 bombers
18: 1 digger
19: 1 climber, 1 builder
21: 3 builders
23: 1 climber, 1 builder, 1 basher
24: 2 builders
25: 2 builders
27: 1 builder
28: 1 builder
All others: none.
Total: 2 climbers, 1 floater, 9 bombers, 49 builders, 1 basher, 6 diggers. (68, 2.3 per level)

Taxing
1: 6 builders, 1 basher
2: 1 builder
3: 6 builders
4: 1 builder
5: 3 builders
6: 1 basher
7: 1 bomber, 5 builders, 1 basher
8: 3 builders, 3 bashers
10: 2 builders
11: 7 builders
12: 2 builders
13: 1 basher, 1 miner
14: 17 builders
16: 7 builders
18: 1 builder
19: 5 bombers
22: 1 builder
23: 12 builders
24: 5 builders
25: 3 builders
26: 5 builders
27: 6 builders
28: 1 floater, 3 builders
29: 1 builder
30: 7 diggers
All others: none.
Total: 1 floater, 6 bombers, 97 builders, 7 bashers, 1 miner, 7 diggers. (119, 3.97 per level)

Mayhem
1: 1 floater, 15 builders
2: 6 builders
3: 1 builder, 1 miner, 1 digger
4: none
5: 4 blockers, 5 builders
6: 6 builders
7: 3 builders, 3 bashers, 3 diggers
8: 3 builders
9: 5 builders, 1 basher
10: 1 floater, 5 builders
11: 9 diggers
12: 1 builder
13: 1 builder
14: 1 builder
15: 4 builders
16: 1 basher, 1 digger
17: 1 builder
18: 3 builders
19: 3 bombers, 7 builders
20: 2 climbers, 1 blocker, 1 builder, 1 basher, 2 miners
21: 21 floaters, 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
22: 6 builders
23: 4 builders, 1 basher
24: 3 bashers
25: 5 builders
26: 2 bombers
27: 2 bashers, 1 digger
28: 5 builders, 1 basher
29: 3 blockers, 10 builders, 1 digger
30: 8 builders
Total: 2 climbers, 23 floaters, 5 bombers, 8 blockers, 109 builders, 14 bashers, 3 miners, 17 diggers. (181, 6.03 per level)

Total for Lemmings: 14 climbers, 26 floaters, 26 bombers, 11 blockers, 270 builders, 25 bashers, 5 miners, 34 diggers. (411, 3.43 per level)


Oh No! More Lemmings

Tame
13: 1 builder
All others: none.
Total: 1 builder. (1, 0.05 per level)

Crazy
1: 1 blocker
2: 3 builders, 1 digger
3: 2 bombers
4: 4 builders
5: 7 builders
6: 1 climber, 5 builders, 2 diggers
7: 1 climber, 1 floater, 3 builders, 1 basher
8: 2 builders
9: none
10: 7 builders, 1 basher
11: 1 builder
12: 2 builders, 1 basher
13: 1 miner, 1 digger
14: 2 blockers, 4 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger
15: 2 builders
16: 1 builder
17: 3 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger
18: 2 builders
19: 1 builder
20: 5 builders
Total: 2 climbers, 1 floater, 2 bombers, 3 blockers, 52 builders, 7 bashers, 1 miner, 6 diggers. (74, 3.70 per level)

Wild
1: none
2: 5 builders
3: 6 builders
4: 6 builders, 1 basher
5: 2 bombers, 3 builders
6: 1 builder
7: 3 builders, 2 bashers
8: 10 climbers, 10 floaters, 1 builder
9: none
10: 3 builders, 1 basher
11: 2 builders
12: 2 builders, 1 basher
13: 2 climbers, 2 bombers, 2 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner
14: none
15: 1 builder, 1 basher
16: 1 climber, 4 builders
17: 2 builders
18: 2 bombers, 3 builders
19: 7 builders
20: 2 builders
Total: 13 climbers, 10 floaters, 6 bombers, 53 builders, 7 bashers, 1 miner. (90, 4.50 per level)

Wicked
1: 1 bomber
2: 5 builders, 1 miner, 5 diggers
3: 3 builders
4: 3 builders
5: 1 builder, 1 basher, 1 digger
6: none
7: 1 blocker, 4 bombers
8: 1 climber, 4 bombers, 1 builder
9: 9 builders
10: 1 blocker, 7 builders
11: 2 builders
12: 2 blockers, 6 builders, 1 miner
13: 7 builders
14:  none
15: 1 floater, 6 builders
16: 1 bomber, 1 builder
17: 4 builders
18: 2 builders
19: 5 builders, 1 basher
20: 1 builder
Total: 1 climber, 1 floater, 10 bombers, 4 blockers, 63 builders, 2 bashers, 2 miners, 6 diggers. (89, 4.45 per level)

Havoc
1: 5 builders
2: 9 builders, 1 digger
3: 1 builder, 1 basher
4: 1 builder, 1 basher, 1 digger
5: 2 climbers, 2 bashers, 2 miners
6: 1 miner
7: 4 builders
8: 1 climber, 4 builders, 3 miners
9: 13 climbers, 5 builders, 3 miners
10: 1 builder
11: 8 builders
12: 9 builders
13: 3 builders
14: 1 climber, 4 builders, 4 bashers, 2 diggers
15: 5 builders
16: 3 builders
17: 2 builders
18: 8 builders, 1 digger
19: 2 builders, 1 basher
20: 1 climber, 1 floater, 7 bombers, 2 miners
Total: 18 climbers, 1 floater, 7 bombers, 74 builders, 9 bashers, 11 miners, 5 diggers. (125, 6.25 per level)

Total for ONML: 34 climbers, 13 floaters, 25 bombers, 7 blockers, 243 builders, 25 bashers, 15 miners, 17 diggers. (379, 3.79 per level)


Holiday Lemmings

Xmas 91 (first two levels only)
1: none
2: 1 builder
Total: 1 builder. (1, 0.50 per level)

Xmas 92
1: 1 basher
2: none
3: 7 builders
4: 1 climber, 9 builders, 3 diggers
Total: 1 climber, 16 builders, 1 basher, 3 diggers. (21, 5.25 per level)

Flurry
8: 5 builders, 1 basher
10: 3 builders
13: 2 builders
14: 1 builder
15: 1 builder
16: 2 builders, 1 basher
All others: none.
Total: 14 builders, 2 bashers. (16, 1.00 per level)

Blitz
1: 3 builders
2: 9 builders
3: 1 digger
4: 1 basher, 1 builder
5: 6 builders
6: none
7: 1 builder
8: 2 builders, 1 basher
9: 8 builders
10: 2 builders
11: 8 builders
12: 1 bomber, 1 digger
13: 8 builders
14: none
15: 8 climbers, 1 floater, 1 bomber, 1 basher
16: 1 bomber, 1 builder, 1 basher
Total: 8 climbers, 1 floater, 3 bombers, 49 builders, 4 bashers, 2 diggers. (67, 4.19 per level)

Frost
6: 1 blocker, 4 builders
7: 5 builders
9: 2 builders
10: 1 builder, 1 basher, 2 diggers
11: 1 builder
12: 3 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger
13: 1 builder
14: 3 builders, 1 basher
15: 1 builder, 2 bashers
16: 3 builders
All others: none.
Total: 1 blocker, 24 builders, 6 bashers, 3 diggers. (34, 2.12 per level)

Hail
1: 1 climber, 1 floater, 2 builders, 1 basher
2: 3 bombers
3: 9 builders
4: none
5: 6 floaters, 6 builders
6: none
7: 14 builders
8: 5 builders, 1 basher
9: 9 builders, 1 basher
10: 2 builders
11: 3 builders, 2 miners, 1 digger
12: 6 builders
13: 1 builder, 2 bashers, 2 diggers
14: 10 builders
15: 1 basher, 1 digger
16: 10 floaters, 1 builder
Total: 1 climber, 17 floaters, 3 bombers, 68 builders, 6 bashers, 2 miners, 4 diggers. (101, 6.31 per level)

Total for Holiday Lemmings: 10 climbers, 18 floaters, 6 bombers, 1 blocker, 172 builders, 19 bashers, 2 miners, 12 diggers. (240, 3.43 per level)


GRAND TOTAL: 58 climbers, 57 floaters, 57 bombers, 19 blockers, 685 builders, 69 bashers, 22 miners, 63 diggers. (1030, 3.58 per level)

Lemmings PSP

1: 1 climber
2: 1 climber, 1 floater
3: 1 climber, 1 basher
4: 2 bombers, 2 blockers
5: 3 builders, 2 miners
6: 1 builder, 4 bashers
7: 4 builders, 3 bashers
8: 5 climbers, 2 builders
9: 5 builders
10: 2 builders, 2 bashers
11: 2 bashers, 1 digger
12: 2 bashers
13: 5 bombers
14: 5 climbers, 1 builder, 1 basher, 1 miner
15: 1 basher, 1 digger
16: 1 builder, 1 basher
17: 2 builders
18: 1 climber, 4 builders, 2 bashers
19: 7 builders
20: 2 builders
21: 2 climbers, 1 blocker, 2 builders, 3 bashers
22: 6 builders, 2 miners
23: 7 builders, 3 bashers
24: 2 climbers, 3 bashers, 2 diggers
25: 3 diggers
26: 1 blocker, 2 bashers
27: 4 builders
28: 1 floater, 3 builders
29: 3 builders, 2 bashers
30: 2 builders
31: 5 builders
32: 1 builder
33: 1 floater, 5 builders, 1 basher
34: 10 climbers, 9 blockers
35: 1 builder, 1 miner, 1 digger
36: 1 builder, 1 digger
Total: 28 climbers, 2 floaters, 7 bombers, 4 blockers, 72 builders, 33 bashers, 5 miners, 7 diggers (158, 4.39 per level)


Covox Lemmings

Fun 1: none
Fun 2: 1 builder
Tricky 1: 1 builder
Tricky 2: 21 climbers, 1 bomber, 2 builders
Taxing 1: 7 builders, 1 basher
Taxing 2: 7 builders
Mayhem 1: 2 builders
Mayhem 2 : none
Total: 21 climbers, 1 bomber, 20 builders, 1 basher (43, 5.375 per level)


Prima Publishing Lemmings

Fun 1: none
Fun 2: 1 climber, 1 blocker, 1 builder, 1 miner, 1 digger
Fun 3: none
Fun 4: 2 builders, 1 basher
Tricky 1: 1 builder
Tricky 2: 6 bombers
Tricky 3: 1 builder
Tricky 4: 1 digger
Taxing 1: 11 builders
Taxing 2: none
Taxing 3: 2 bashers, 1 digger
Taxing 4: 2 blockers, 2 builders
Mayhem 1: 1 digger
Mayhem 2: 5 builders
Mayhem 3: 1 blocker, 4 builders
Mayhem 4: 7 builders


3D Lemmings

Fun
1: 1 turner
2: 2 diggers
3: 3 builders
4: 1 turner, 2 diggers
5: 7 turners
6: 4 bombers
7: 1 bomber, 1 basher, 2 climbers
8: 2 turners, 1 builder
9: 5 turners
10: 2 builders
11: 2 blockers, 4 turners
12: 1 turner, 5 bombers
13: 13 turners, 2 builders, 20 floaters
14: 6 turners
15: 4 turners, 1 basher
16: 4 turners, 1 builder, 1 digger
17: 1 blocker, 2 bashers, 1 floater
18: 4 turners, 8 miners
19: 2 turners
20: 4 turners, 1 builder

Tricky
1: 2 turners, 8 climbers
2: 2 blockers
3: 1 bomber, 2 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 climber, 1 floater
4: 3 turners, 2 builders, 1 miner
5: 1 turner, 2 bombers
6: 2 blockers, 5 turners, 2 builders, 1 basher
7: 2 turners, 3 builders
8: None
9: 4 turners
10: 5 turners, 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
11: 14 turners, 1 builder, 2 bashers
12: 5 turners, 11 builders
13: 6 turners
14: 3 turners, 1 builder
15: 2 turners, 2 builders, 1 digger
16: 3 turners, 1 builder, 2 bashers
17: 4 turners, 1 bomber, 1 climber
18: 3 bashers, 1 digger, 1 climber
19: 2 turners, 1 builder
20: 5 turners, 1 builder, 1 digger

Taxing
1: 6 turners
2: 1 blocker, 5 turners, 2 bashers, 3 climbers
3: 4 bombers, 4 builders, 4 bashers
4: 1 turner, 5 builders, 4 bashers
5: 5 turners, 1 builder
6: 2 turners, 1 builder, 1 floater
7: 5 turners, 1 builder, 3 bashers, 1 digger
8: 7 turners, 4 bashers
9: 6 turners
10: 1 turner
11: 3 turners
12: 4 builders, 1 basher
13: 1 blocker, 2 turners, 1 builder
14: 5 turners
15: None
16: 1 turner, 1 bomber, 1 builder
17: None
18: 4 turners, 3 bombers
19: 1 builder, 2 miners
20: 1 turner, 3 builders

Mayhem
1: 2 bombers, 1 builder, 2 diggers, 2 climbers
2: 3 blockers, 2 turners, 1 bomber, 3 bashers, 4 climbers
3: 3 turners
4: 2 turners, 2 builders, 2 bashers, 1 climber, 1 floater
5: 3 bombers, 1 builder, 1 digger, 5 floaters
6: 7 turners
7: None
8: 1 turner, 4 builders
9: 1 turner, 1 builder, 1 digger, 2 climbers
10: 1 turner, 1 builder
11: 2 turners, 1 builder, 1 basher
12: 4 turners
13: 15 turners
14: 2 turners, 3 builders
15: 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
16: 1 blocker, 5 turners, 4 builders, 1 miner, 1 digger, 6 climbers
17: 2 bashers
18: 7 builders
19: 1 bomber, 1 builder, 3 bashers, 2 climbers
20: 1 turner
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 02:22:47 am by namida »

Offline GuyPerfect

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Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2009, 04:05:56 am »
Err, so you're saying... "Regardless of the solution, you need at least X of skill Y to complete the stage"?

Offline Clam

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Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2009, 04:13:02 am »
Indeed. :)

I have a strange feeling the vast majority of the final total will be builders...

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2009, 04:16:37 am »
Considering that the builder is the only skill capable of adding terrain pixels to the level, yeah, it would be a forgone conclusion that there'll be a lot of builders in the final total.

Anyway, Wild 9 is another level with "none", courtesy of the nuke glitch.

Offline namida

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Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2009, 04:30:42 am »
Fun 8 - 12: None
Fun 13: Diggers (see min skills thread for amount, I don't remember)
Fun 14: None
Fun 15: 6 Builders
Fun 16: Builders (see min skills thread for amount)
Fun 17: None
Fun 18: 5 Bombers
Fun 19: 4 Builders
Fun 20: 2 Builders
Fun 21-22: None
Fun 23: Possibly builders and/or bashers?
Fun 24-25: None
Fun 26: 2 builders
Fun 27: None
Fun 28: 5 builders
Fun 29: Maybe bashers?
Fun 30: None
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Offline Clam

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Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2009, 04:58:56 am »
Fun 13: Diggers (see min skills thread for amount, I don't remember)
That's 3 diggers.

Quote
Fun 16: Builders (see min skills thread for amount)
6. Although it might be possible to cut that using Tame 20 and the nuke glitch.

Quote
Fun 19: 4 Builders
Again, the Tame 20 glitch might come into play here and reduce that.

Quote
Fun 20: 2 Builders
I'm assuming DOS version here. This means no water, and you don't have to build to the exit platform.

Quote
Fun 23: Possibly builders and/or bashers?
I think it might be possible to eliminate each (in separate solutions) using multiple Tame 20's.

Quote
Fun 26: 2 builders
Possible with none. This was done in my old challenge thread.

Quote
Fun 29: Maybe bashers?
There's plenty enough skills to just mine and build across.

Offline chaos_defrost

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Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2009, 06:19:08 am »
you can beat fun 29 sans builders?

if that's the case then my head just exploded and I quit Lemmings forever
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Offline Minim

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Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2009, 06:38:37 am »
Here're the essentials of first few levels of tricky

1: 1 builder
2: 5 diggers
3: 1 builder
4: 5 builders
5: 3 builders
6: 2 builders
7: 7 builders

you can beat fun 29 sans builders?

Well, I assume there are no gaps to cross so don't be too surprised. And don't be silly like "quit lemmings forever" because you will come back eventually ;)
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Offline namida

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Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2009, 07:22:45 am »
No builders Fun 29 is one of the hardest challenges ever, but it's doable.
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Offline Clam

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Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2009, 07:24:16 am »
you can beat fun 29 sans builders?

if that's the case then my head just exploded and I quit Lemmings forever

It's not too dissimilar to geoo's Tame 13 effort actually. The difference here is they give you a staircase to work with - albeit not a very nice one (since the lemmings won't climb it unless you make holes in it). Plus it takes a bit of steel-glitching.

But yes, it's possible - and with 100%. But I guess you're still gonna need a replay before you're convinced, so here it is. (Don't worry about the speed-digging bit at the start - you could just use a blocker and dig it out. I can't be bothered going back to change it...)

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2009, 07:48:40 am »
Here's what I know for the first few Tricky levels off the top of my head:

1:  1 builder
2:  Diggers (I'm not sure how many)
3:  1 builder
4:  5 builders
5:  3 builders
6:  2 builders
7:  7 builders
8:  10 builders
9:  None
10:  4 builders

Offline namida

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Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2009, 08:14:30 am »
Tricky 11
We know from the harder version that it can be done using only climbers, bombers and builders.  Thus meaning any solution that doesn't use any of those is fine.

Attached replay does use climbers, but doesn't use bombers or builders.

I think it's pretty commonly known this level can be done without climbers anyway, with a standard build-and-bash solution.

Therefore,

Tricky 11: None

Tricky 12
By direct drop, you can beat it with only one floater and then builders. Attached  is a replay that uses all 50 floaters (therefore, 1 floater is required - it's pretty obvious that you need at least one of them), as well as climbers, blockers, bashers and diggers - but no builders. Therefore, the minimum for this is:

Tricky 12: 1 floater

Tricky 13
Either clam or CC said there's a solution that uses only 5 builders - fewer than this is impossible. Since the level can be beaten with only builders, the result is obviously:

Tricky 13: 5 builders

Tricky 14
Someone else can get this one.

Tricky 15
Very obvious - 3 bombers.

Tricky 16
1 Basher, and however many bombers are required when using the miner. You can do it without the miner, using more bombers, so the miner isn't needed.

Tricky 17
2 Bombers.

Tricky 18
1 Digger, 1 Bomber. You can  either make the second lemming float, or make him build to delay him, therefore, neither is essential.

Tricky 19
If I'm not mistake, 1 climber, 1 builder, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 digger. I suspect it's possible without any floaters, but I'll wait for someone else to confirm this.
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Offline Minim

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Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2009, 08:21:08 am »
Here's what I know for the first few Tricky levels off the top of my head:

I've already copied that! :P with an exception for Levels 8, 9, 10.
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Offline Clam

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Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2009, 08:36:59 am »
Tricky 13
Either clam or CC said there's a solution that uses only 5 builders - fewer than this is impossible. Since the level can be beaten with only builders, the result is obviously:

Tricky 13: 5 builders

Thanks to our friend the nuke glitch, you can save 20/26 (76% - more than the 70% required) with 4 builders.


Tricky 16
1 Basher, and however many bombers are required when using the miner. You can do it without the miner, using more bombers, so the miner isn't needed.

I just got an idea that this might be possible without the basher. I'll try it now and let you know how it turns out.

EDIT: Success! Tricky 16 completed without the basher. Replay attached.

By the way, the minimum number of bombers is 4 - as reflected by the max % record of 92%.

Offline Proxima

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Re: What skills can't you live without?
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2009, 08:47:06 am »
Tricky 13
Either clam or CC said there's a solution that uses only 5 builders - fewer than this is impossible. Since the level can be beaten with only builders, the result is obviously:

It was ccexplore and it was for the harder version. Which, incidentally, also gives you enough builders to complete the level with builders alone, so the result is the same for that level.

This topic is progressing too fast for me to be of much help, so I'll just fill in a few obvious ones among the later levels to save you the time ;)

Mayhem 16 - 1 basher, 1 digger
Mayhem 20 - 2 climbers, 1 blocker, 1 builder, 1 basher, 2 miners
Mayhem 21 - 1 climber, 21 floaters, 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
Mayhem 24 - 3 bashers
Mayhem 27 - 2 bashers, 1 digger