[NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]

[Strato Incendus]

You may not be able to go to any real open-air festivals right now. And you're definitely not able to go to indoors concerts. But there is an alternative world where all human beings are 8 pixels large, and neither have to worry about infections... nor about how many of them die for other reasons. And in that world, open-air concerts are as possible as ever.

After two years in the making, the follow-up to Lemmings World Tour is finally here!



You can download both the pack itself as well as the required add-on tileset in the attachments.
Please make sure to download this tileset, strato_generalmd, as well, because it adds some miscellaneous pieces that are required to make a couple of levels work.

The music pack is the same as for Lemmings World Tour. If you don't have it yet, you can get it here!
It features my self-recorded rock / metal versions of the original Lemmings and Oh No! More Lemmings music.
(This does not include ONML track 04, because I hate it , nor the "cross-promotion" tracks of Beast, Menace, and Awesome).



Lemmings Open Air aims to recreate the feeling of playing original Lemmings while at the same time using NeoLemmix skills and features, and sticking to NeoLemmix puzzle philosophy:

- The new skills Shimmier and Jumper are front and centre in this pack.
On the first two ranks, you will only have to deal with the Shimmier. And you might be glad about that, because these levels run the Shimmier through all its gears, and might possibly demand from you every last trick you can pull off with it.
After that, the Jumper gets introduced on rank 3.

- A lot of levels make use of the expanded 10-slots skill panel.

- The tilesets are mainly the ones from original Lemmings and Oh No! More Lemmings, with a few levels in my two new custom tilesets of mine added. These should however blend nicely with the classic ones:

Autumn tileset:

Fallen leaves

Money tileset:

I need a dollar

Normally, there should be no need to re-download these two styles, since they have been part of the official styles download for a while now.


Lemmings Open Air has 120 levels, 30 for each of four ranks:
Soft, Loud, Heavy, and Hardcore

Just like in Lemmings World Tour, all the levels are named after songs.
However, in reference to the famous metal festival that is Wacken Open Air, the tracks are not ordered by how famous the songs are (as it was the case in Lemmings World Tour).
Instead, they increase in order of "heaviness", starting with largely soft pop songs and ballads and ending with the most brutal death metal ever known to Lemkind.

The title "Open Air" was also chosen because, after Lemmings World Tour, this was the first pack I started developing for New Formats - where the ceiling is no longer solid, but "open" and thus deadly. This is also referenced by one of the later levels in the pack, which was however one of the first levels I made for it, called "Forlorn skies".

Because this is a follow-up to Lemmings World Tour, even though stylistically very different, the pack expects you to know all of the tricks that especially the first two ranks of Lemmings World Tour taught you.

Of course, if you already know a lot of tricks and consider yourself an experienced player, feel free to try this even if you haven't played Lemmings World Tour yet - it's quite a huge bite to swallow, after all.
But don't be surprised if this pack hits you out of nowhere with something you might not know yet... ;-)


SOFT
Just the first two levels have all 18 skills that were available at that time (i.e. minus the Jumper) crammed into them. It's the fastest crash-course possible in NeoLemmix. And immediately after that, you're shoved out on stage and have to deliver! The songs on this rank may be fairly easy-going, but that doesn't necessarily mean the levels will be, as well...

Don't worry, be happy

Always look on the bright side of life

LOUD
Going into slightly harder territory now. Here you will find the occasional punk / rock band, and for the ballads on this rank, they're usually already power ballads, with a little more "oomph" to them. Be prepared to use the Shimmier in all kinds of non-obvious ways!

Born to be wild

November rain

HEAVY
The Jumper gets introduced on level 2. Be prepared to have it interact with the Shimmier right from the start! After all, whether the songs are glam rock or classic old-school heavy metal, we want to see all those lemming hands up in the air!

I believe in a thing called Lems

Poison

HARDCORE
These puzzles will wrench your mind as much as their titles will wrench your guts . The song titles will become less and less known as I've dredged them from the darkest depths of the Hell dimension. It's pretty much all Death- or Black Metal at this point. The final level is named after an absolute classic of the genre.

Chopped in half

Symphony of destruction


In stark contrast to Lemmings World Tour, the levels in this pack are largely abstract shapes, not specific locations or "realistic-looking" objects. The focus is on the mechanical challenge first, aesthetics come second. If the levels are pretty, that will usually just mean a nice mix of colours.

However, I've put my two very artistic Christmas levels in here (that don't actually make a lot of use of the Christmas tileset). So it feels just fitting to release this pack at the end of November.

Also, there are a few levels which were hard to completely backroute-fix despite extensive testing.
Interestingly enough, though, one level that is known to have backroutes available still managed to stump one of my testers.
Thus, when even the "unfixable" backroutes are hard to find, you know you've got a difficult pack on your hands!

Many thanks to Armani, kaywhyn, and Flopsy for pre-release testing, as well as nin10doadict (and again Armani) for early testing!
Also thanks to Nepster for introducing the Shimmier, to namida for introducing the Jumper, and obviously to both of them for creating and maintaining New-Formats NeoLemmix.


And with that, I declare this festival open!

[kaywhyn]

Congratulations on the release of your 4th 5th pack, Strato! And I can see that you already managed to make use of the proposed difficulty scale. I can agree with the range of difficulty you attached to your pack

Really, I can say that it was a huge honor to be a pre-tester for your pack. Other than Icho's contest #21 levels, which I also pretested, your LOA pack would be the very first pack that I have ever pre-tested. A lot of tough nuts in here, but I can highly recommend this well-done, excellent pack! Also, lots of well-done and very artistic levels, especially in the money tileset Do note that it's definitely more difficult on average and Strato's definitely pulling no punches here. Right out the gate the difficulty already starts high, so even the first rank Soft is no pushover. Still, I don't think that'll be enough to deter anyone in playing this pack.

Because this is a really well-done pack IMO, I really wish I could LP this, but I can't because I was a pre-tester. I definitely enjoyed myself with the pack while I pre-tested. Generally, when I have built up a lot of momentum, I tend to keep it going rather than stop playing the pack and leaving it untouched for a while.

This being said, I'm looking forward to seeing the solutions of others. Good luck and have fun!  

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks a lot for your kind words, kaywhyn!

Actually, it's already my 5th pack (Paralems, Pit Lems, Lemmicks, Lemmings World Tour, and now Lemmings Open Air).

And yeah, I've already thought about the fact that most likely, this pack won't see a Let's Play. Because you've already tested it extensively, namida doesn't do LPs anymore, as far as I know, and it will most likely be too difficult for Arty and Flopsy (and Flopsy has also taken part in testing). I'm not sure if nin10doadict still does LPs, but as far as I remember, Lemmings World Tour already gave him a more than sufficient challenge .

A couple of the more experienced players used to do somewhat irregular live streams on Twitch in the past (Nessy, Wafflem, Simon and others). They played many of the classics on those (NepsterLems, PimoLems, Quest from Kieran 2...). Usually, these are such adept level solvers that they can beat an entire pack in one or two sessions. So who knows, maybe one of them might be curious enough to try that one day.

The main upside of LPs is that you can judge more easily how difficult a level is in terms of "how long does the player have to think about the solution before finding it?" The successful replay files you get at the end are only the end result, but that only tells you so much about how long it took.

This was especially confusing during testing, because sometimes when there were a lot of leftover skills, that made me think the level was too easy - when in fact that can still mean the player struggled quite a bit before being able to solve the level at all. I'm currently playing SEB Lems once more, and I've been noticing that on several levels there .

But first of all, I'm mainly just curious to see who can beat this pack at all. No matter if "live" or in regular replays.

I definitely have faith in the other people who beat Lemmings United, e.g. joshescue, and of course IchoTolot himself. Nepster also, if he were still around. He implemented the Shimmier, after all, so he must have done quite a bit of testing himself for its mechanics, which is why I'd assume he knows all the tricks you can do with it. (Except that gliding onto a stack from a Reacher is no longer possible since the physics change, which was implemented by namida.) And yeah, of course, namida himself should be able to beat it... but I assume our constant input about the new skills is keeping him more than busy right now ...

[kaywhyn]

Actually, it's already my 5th pack (Paralems, Pit Lems, Lemmicks, Lemmings World Tour, and now Lemmings Open Air).

Oh, right! I totally forgot about Lemmicks Also, if I'm not mistaken, the only other person to have released more than 5 packs is namida. Everyone else seemed to have released just a pack or two for NL.

[IchoTolot]

Congratulations to the release, Strato.

One thing: What does Difficulty: 3 (Advanced) - 6 (Legend) mean in comparison to the normal ratings of the other packs

Maybe simply calling it Medium - Hard would fit better so it's in line with most of the rest.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks, IchoTolot!

The difficulty descriptions in the title, as kaywhyn correctly identified, are taken from WillLem's suggestions for difficulty ratings. I used them because he proposed them as a unified terminology for the entire forum.

Therefore, if there are some other, more established terms to describe pack-difficulty ranges, I'll be happy to change them!

But currently it still seems to me as if everyone chooses whatever descriptions they want. You might remember, a while ago I asked what "Sunsoft difficulty" means, because some people were still describing the difficulty of their ranks in terms of Fun through Mayhem and then up to Sunsoft. When in reality, most custom packs are far more difficult than original Sunsoft, even on the early ranks.

Medium to Hard might be fitting, though it sounds to me like a more limited range. You described Lemmings United as "hard to extreme". I honestly don't know whether this pack goes all the way up to "extreme", i.e. to levels of difficulty that might be on par with some stuff from United. You're probably the best person to judge that.

I would think that "If kaywhyn and Armani struggled with some of these levels, I guess that means yes". But by now I've watched quite a few episodes of kaywhyn's Lemmings Migration LP, and I've understood that even an adept level solver can occasionally get stumped by packs that aren't considered horrendously difficult as a whole.

[IchoTolot]

I would think that "If kaywhyn and Armani struggled with some of these levels, I guess that means yes". But by now I've watched quite a few episodes of kaywhyn's Lemmings Migration LP, and I've understood that even an adept level solver can occasionally get stumped by packs that aren't considered horrendously difficult as a whole.

You would be surprized how fast you can struggle, but the better question is What does "struggle" mean.   I would define it as taking several hours to solve something and that 100% can happen even in Medium packs in my case.

For comparison, I would rank "Lemmings World Tour" as Medium. As I could breeze through most parts without much difficulty, while struggling on some levels. As an example, I found "MegSEGAbytes" more difficult and that's a "Medium-Hard" one.

If this is a step up and I would struggle on some more I would put it in "Medium-Hard" and if it has multiple levels stumping me for days then "Hard-Extreme".

If kaywhyn and Armani were stuck on quite a few levels for some days/weeks then definitly write "Hard-Extreme"! For comparison, this was the case on quite a few United levels.

But it's the easiest if they can just quickly post in here what gave them more trouble and how they would rate it as I haven't played it yet.

But currently it still seems to me as if everyone chooses whatever descriptions they want.

You can see almost all packs just use Easy- Medium - Hard - Extreme in the topic's title. (And Beginner for the Intro Pack )

[kaywhyn]

Medium to Hard might be fitting, though it sounds to me like a more limited range. You described Lemmings United as "hard to extreme". I honestly don't know whether this pack goes all the way up to "extreme", i.e. to levels of difficulty that might be on par with some stuff from United. You're probably the best person to judge that.

Definitely not extreme. The longest I've been stumped on any level of your LOA pack was about 1-1.5 hours, and it was one of the Hardcore levels, a fire level to be exact. Armani also found it to be very hard. Not only was it hard, when my solution kept failing due to what I believe might be a lot of pixel precision, I eventually started raging.

For comparison, I would rank "Lemmings World Tour" as Medium. As I could breeze through most parts without much difficulty, while struggling on some levels. As an example, I found "MegSEGAbytes" more difficult and that's a "Medium-Hard" one.

I agree with your assessment of the difficulty for LWT, while I can't speak for MegSEGAbytes since I haven't played it yet, though I eventually will. For LWT, when I was giving Strato feedback, I echoed a lot of the feedback you gave him. For example, I agree with you that the difficulty of the Noisemaker rank, the first rank, is all over the place and is quite harsh in several places, while Amateur, the second rank, isn't as scattered. After the first two ranks, I breezed through most levels very easily, while there were some levels that I ended up struggling with for quite a while, especially in the Legend rank. Also, the final level, The Grand Puzzle, also took me about an hour.

If this is a step up and I would struggle on some more I would put it in "Medium-Hard" and if it has multiple levels stumping me for days then "Hard-Extreme".

If kaywhyn and Armani were stuck on quite a few levels for some days/weeks then definitly write "Hard-Extreme"! For comparison, this was the case on quite a few United levels.

You're pretty much spot on with Medium - Hard. Or even Medium - Very Hard can work too. As mentioned above, both Armani and I had a really difficult time with a particular fire level in Hardcore. I'm not sure how long it took him, but the level took me about 1-1.5 hours. That's the longest I've been stuck on any level in LOA, so definitely not extreme like United. That being said, Hard - Extreme is very appropriate for United, as you will recall several levels took me weeks/months. Even more that it took me exactly 1 year to solve the entire pack. Yes, you read right Strato, 1 year.

[IchoTolot]

The longest I've been stumped on any level of your LOA pack was about 1-1.5 hours

Then I would say "Medium-Hard".

[Strato Incendus]

Alright, difficulty description changed! Thanks for your input, guys!

I'm glad to hear you consider LWT Medium difficulty, since that's precisely what it was designed to be: A "filler" and intermediate step for the gap between beginner and expert content. Now we have more packs in this difficulty range, of course, but at the time of its creation, LWT was one of the few.

Yes, you read right Strato, 1 year.

Wow. I guess IchoTolot has made the Holy Grail of level packs then! I remember some user (who was comparatively new at that time, I think?) uttering his ambitions to create a pack that even our most skilled solvers would take one year to solve. And the other forum members replied along the lines of "good luck, IchoTolot, Nepster, and namida are pretty good at this game" . But of course, that didn't include the possibility of IchoTolot himself making a pack that took other users one year or more to solve...


But for the moment, I'm just happy to see how many people have already downloaded the pack within just a couple of hours . Looks like building the anticipation for two years really paid off!

So thanks a lot and good luck to all who are playing at the moment! Feel free to post your replays, no matter how far you get.

[IchoTolot]

But for the moment, I'm just happy to see how many people have already downloaded the pack within just a couple of hours . Looks like building the anticipation for two years really paid off!

Most visitors are silent here and don't have an account. Right now there are 60+ people here.

As I always say: Most impact from everything on here is silent and you will never know of it.    This is an excellent example of that silent majority being recognizable!

[kaywhyn]

I remember some user (who was comparatively new at that time, I think?) uttering his ambitions to create a pack that even our most skilled solvers would take one year to solve. And the other forum members replied along the lines of "good luck, IchoTolot, Nepster, and namida are pretty good at this game" . But of course, that didn't include the possibility of IchoTolot himself making a pack that took other users one year or more to solve...

I remember this too! I don't remember who or which pack it is, if it ever was named at the time, but I remember reading this, at a time when I was still visiting the site and reading these posts silently in the background

[Armani]

Congratulation from me as well
It was very fun and good time testing LOA.

It was the first custom pack I've pretested for me as well except for several contest levels.
I haven't play Strato's other packs so I can't compare difficulty of LOA to his other packs, but I think LOA is a quite difficult pack even in current custom level scene of the forum.
Even levels from the first rank are not simple after two tutorial levels.

It's the first custom pack featuring both shimmier and jumper as far as I know.(I could be wrong here.) So if you are a big fan of these fancy new skills, this is the pack you should play.

[kaywhyn]

Even levels from the first rank are not simple after two tutorial levels.

I don't consider the first two levels tutorials at all. At least not in the sense that they teach anything in regards to what the skills do. Yes, they're great 1-of-everything levels, but they certainly aren't tutorials. I think we're all in agreement that this pack is certainly not for beginners, as I did mention that the levels already start off difficult right out the gate.

[WouterSmits]

how an i beat first level what iv do its inposseble
everything one
you need to dig
i need 3 builders to do

[kaywhyn]

Hey WouterSmits, don't overcomplicate this one. It's definitely possible and a lot easier than you think. If possible, send a replay so that Strato or anyone else who has passed it can see why and where you're getting stuck and could possibly help you to solve it. To save a replay, press U at any time while you're playing the level.

[WouterSmits]

heres replay

[kaywhyn]

You almost got it! There's one skill at the very end that you're not placing correctly that's causing you to think you need more builders. See if you can figure it out

[ericderkovits]

yes, i solved the 1st 2 levels, and yes I don't think they're tutorials at all,

Anyways here are my 2 soft levels(1 and 2), Got the Talisman for level 1.

[WouterSmits]

Good job thanks i can continue

[namida]

You may not be able to go to any real open-air festivals right now. And you're definitely not able to go to indoors concerts.

*laughs in New Zealand-ese*

[WouterSmits]

heres replay 3rd level with 4 talisman
ive beated

[ericderkovits]

ok here are the next 3 beat 3,4 and 5. Got talisman for 4

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for playing, WouterSmits and ericderkovits!

Everything is as intended so far, except, eric's solution for Soft 05, which is a valid alternative one (i.e. uses all the skills, not a backroute, just not the way I solved it ).

And indeed, even the first two levels are not meant to be tutorial levels. Or at least not more so than the "Crash Course" levels from SEB Lems.

[WouterSmits]

beated level 5+6 
all skills used
no backroute

[kaywhyn]

Also, if you noticed, Soft 1 is a 1-of-everything level with just the 8 classic skills, while Soft 2 is a 1-of-everything level using only NL skills except for the jumper, which will be introduced in the third rank. It's also the very first one in the pack that makes use of the full 10 skill panel. I guess one thing I forgot to point out is my experience playing levels with a full 10 skill panel. I say the difficulty varies depending on the level, like most things, but the fact that you can have 2 extra skills can definitely up the difficulty considerably.

Nice to see a lot of takers on the LOA pack already. Your choice of releasing the pack on the weekend was wise indeed, Strato! Not to mention the 2 years in the making and the build up of anticipation leading up to the release Just a word of advice to the players, and that is you don't have to, but I generally only post replays after I get through an entire rank. After what took several hours to write the entire feedback for Strato's other pack Paralems, I'm definitely not doing that again, finishing an entire pack first and then posting replays/very detailed feedback on almost every single level. Instead, depending on how long each rank is, I will either post all my replays after I finish a rank or when I get to the halfway point. Or, more rarely, whenever I feel like it, which is what I think most players do anyway

And remember, if you get stuck, feel free to ask Strato or anyone who has passed the level for a hint(s), and we'll do what we can to help

[WouterSmits]

i cant get past this

[Strato Incendus]

Well, imagine my shock... Soft 07 is precisely what I expected to be the first road block.

First hint (Soft 07)

If you build across the first pillar from the top of the three-Builder wall, there is obviously no way for the crowd to get over that pillar - because you don't want them to get back behind the three-Builder wall, and they can't, even if you wanted them to.

So the three Builders that create the wall on the left and the Builders that get you over the first pillar need to be separate.

How you isolate the worker lemming for the second part of the level... that is a different story after that .

[WouterSmits]

still dont understand

[Strato Incendus]

Second hint (Soft 07)

Do you know the level "Dolly Dimple" from Oh No! More Lemmings (Crazy rank, level 02)? If not, you should probably try and beat that level first.

Alternatively, there's a level in Lemmings World Tour (Noisemaker rank, level 11) called "Can't stop this thing we started". This level teaches the exact same approach as "Dolly Dimple".

This is what I meant by "You need to know the tricks from Lemmings World Tour to beat this pack". That wasn't a joke!

Hint if you've already beaten "Dolly Dimple" and "Can't stop this thing we started"

You can use Builders to force lemmings to walk into one direction only. The same logic applies here.
Except that in this case, it's not about making them all look in the same direction when falling through a Digger hole... but you still want the entire crowd to look in one direction, the pioneer in the other one.

[kaywhyn]

Indeed, when I pre-tested the pack, I struggled for a good 10 minutes with Soft 7 and thought this level is a huge step up in difficulty and definitely will be for less experienced players. The first part wasn't the problem, but the second part I thought was difficult, but that's likely because I ended up inflicting a lot of extreme pixel precision.

You can do this! Just don't give up.

[ericderkovits]

Ok, I solved 7, this one was just a matter of timing. I didn't even notice your hints until I solved it. I just knew it was a timing one.

Anyways here is my replay for soft 7

Yes the first part was easy, the 2nd part was tricky to get the lead lemming far enough away from the pack like Strato said

EDIT: Oh, I forgot my soft 6, here it is then

UPDATE: Ok I solved it without timing, but builder mechanics. included this replay too

[WouterSmits]

thanks eric
thanks to you i understanted

[kaywhyn]

Little to no timing is needed for Soft 7. All that's needed is knowledge of builder mechanics, especially since it's a builders only level. Now I'm curious about Soft 8 and 9. The former should be obvious, but admittedly it's annoying to execute. On the other hand, the latter was a roadblock for me, and I apparently ended up solving it differently from Strato's. Not pulling any punches at all, am I right? This pack is definitely not for beginners!

In any case, let's wait until there are close to a complete or a full rank of replays before posting, as the last several posts have been nothing but 1-3 replays at a time. Also, don't be afraid to struggle with the pack. As Strato and I have already warned, it's not an easy pack at all.

[ericderkovits]

ok, level 8 here.

This level reminds me of Queztalings in Framlems. The precision is just too high. Although the solution is easy. Everything had to be in the exact spots.

Anyways here is my level 8 solution replay.


Ok, and from this level on I will post when and if I complete the rank.

[Strato Incendus]

Replies to ericderkovits's replays Soft 06-08

06: Intended.

07: I was curious when I heard you used a timing-based solution. You still built to the left before you built up for the second part. However, you actually re-connected the crowd with the first section and had them walk back and forth. The intended solution is to only build to the left until you're under the pillar, so that the crowd keeps walking to the left, then have the last lemming who comes in from the left (i.e. is still looking to the right while falling) land on top of the staircase and build up from there. No lemming from the crowd will be able to follow him because they all continue walking to the left, until you have the crowd build up to the staircase again from the left (=looking to the right) after the water gap has been crossed. Learned this trick ages ago from mobius, tried to enforce it on his Groupie level in Lemmings World Tour, didn't work - but here it's vital!
However, the fact that I now know there is a timing-based alternative means this level has more degrees of freedom. Therefore, I feel it's all the more justified to be on the first rank.
Yes, the level is a step up in difficulty, but even this one doesn't actually enforce the "mobius trick" as strictly as I thought it would .

08: That's basically intended. I just find it curious that nobody seems to want to use the Glider . When you set up the second staircase with a lemming from the left/upper crowd (=letting one slip past the Blocker, making him a Glider, then cloning the Glider before he falls so that the clone still turns around on the Blocker, then both glide down, you stone the first one so that the second one lands on top of the Stoner), it should be easier. Because the Stoner should be in the exact right spot where the second Builder needs to go. On the other hand, sending all worker lemmings from the right means you don't have to divide your attention as much between the two crowds.

Regarding the precision: Yes, making Miners go through is always precise, but believe me... I have both played and designed much worse "Miner marathons"...

[namida]

Okay, taking a look at this.

Feedback for Soft 1 to 10

Soft 1 - Nice level gameplay-wise; the visuals feel a tad rough (mostly the starting area). Surprisingly tricky for the first level.
Soft 2 - Not as hard as the first one, but still very tricky. Very nice level. I love the music!
Soft 3 - Easiest one to this point. Not a bad level, but not overly great either - that's okay, it's pretty normal to have levels like such in larger packs, mine are certianly full of such levels too.
Soft 4 - Okay, I'm definitely convinced the levels are getting easier as they go along.
Soft 5 - Crystal one-way arrows (well, all one-way arrows really) are quite tricky to tell the direction of on that terrain. Note to self: give CPM a way to show this more clearly.  That aside - looks like I spoke too soon about the difficulty curve, this level was quite tricky.
Soft 6 - And, back to fairly easy for the most part. The Shimmier trick took a few seconds to spot, but aside from this it was pretty straightforward. Another one with great music!
Soft 7 - Okay, this is insanely hard compared to the others so far. It's an excellent puzzle, but it's hard even by the standards of (most of) the other levels so far.
Soft 8 - Not impressed with this one. It's very finnicky, and the only purpose that the high RR seems to serve is to, combined with the lemming count, act as a time limit in disguise.
Soft 9 - Interesting, might have backrouted it. A bit tight, but again, that might be down to the specific route I took.
Soft 10 - First thing I notice: The one-way arrows don't quite cover the whole pillar in the middle. This looks a bit awkward. That aside, this was a pretty good puzzle - took me a while to figure out, not as hard as the last few.

[kaywhyn]

@namida - Yes, thank you for doing this! Several levels and replays, instead of just 1 or a few at a time over and over like the last several posts Regarding your feedback, 100% agree with almost all of it, especially Soft 7 and Soft 8.

update: Ok, I just watched your Soft 9 replay and I definitely like your solution far better than mine. I overcomplicated it and even did something fancy with a fencer assignment and taught Strato something

[ericderkovits]

ok here are my soft 1-11 replays. currently stuck on 12.

Soft 10 I managed to solve without using the glider

[Strato Incendus]

Responses to ericderkovits

Soft 09: Completely different than intended, but perfectly fine! This is basically an open-ended level where the iffy terrain shape and the lethal drop for the central hatch are the main challenges, no matter how you overcome them.

Soft 10: That's a nifty little trick you used there! I think Armani did something similar with the Glider, showing me that Reacher-Glider tricks still work (especially with updrafts) even after the physics change. You however didn't even need the Glider, because you instead exploited the fact that Reachers can jump through small stripes of terrain. I think WillLem was the first one to demonstrate this to me. This isn't actually required on any of the levels in this pack (I did make a level for my upcoming pack Lemmings: Hall of Fame, though, where it is indeed relevant ). I guess this means that while standing on top of the Stoner, the lemming was actually already under the wooden stripe of terrain. If you had used the Glider, you could even have done it a couple of pixels earlier, i.e. before the lemming was under the stripe of terrain.
Neither trick is required to solve this level, though; you can also just use the Glider and all the Shimmiers for their normal applications.

Soft 11: This is the first time I see an alternative solution for this one! The intended way is to widen the Fencer tunnel with a Basher going down the slope, so that the Shimmier can continue all the way to the pillar on the left. You instead used the Stoner to isolate him while disarming the traps and saved the Basher for cutting through the Stoner later on. I don't think there would be a way for me to prevent this, even if I wanted to. But I'm actually fine with such alternative solutions, especially if they still use all the skills. Sometimes it can come back to hurt a player later though, if they miss an opportunity to learn a certain trick (in this case: widening a Fencer tunnel wish a Basher so that Shimmiers can pass through) that may be required again later on...

Okay, taking a look at this.

... and the grand master himself is here! Thanks a lot for taking the time to do this, namida!

Responses to namida

Soft 01 - Intended (Talisman).Yeah, that left side looks a little "loose". It's to enforce the Floater usage, but of course, the talisman solution doesn't require it.

Soft 02 - Intended. I am very confident this level is harder for the average player than the first one, simply because that Stacker-Stoner trick is still not that well-known yet. And here there is literally no other way of freeing the crowd at the end.

Soft 03 - Intended. Don't overlook one thing: This level is the first to introduce direct Climber-Shimmier transitions. I actually added the Shimmier to level 02 to get one regular application out of it first, i.e. where the ceiling is low enough so that the Reacher can get to the ceiling on his own. Because if level 03 was the first time a player encountered the Shimmier, they might think it was just a "vertical Jumper", or even that "Reacher" was the actual skill name. For any player who wasn't already here during the discussions leading up to the introduction of the Shimmier, it may not be obvious at all that Climbers can transition into Shimmiers directly. Especially because NeoLemmix doesn't use the "dangling from the ceiling" animation, as Lemmings 2: The Tribes does.

Soft 04 - Intended (Talisman). Well, I for one had quite a lot of trouble getting used to this logic of "using Miner tunnels to turn around while they are being created", so maybe I overestimate the difficulty of such puzzles . It's mainly in spot 04 though as an homage to "Now use Miners and Climbers" .

Soft 05 - Valid alternative solution. Glad to hear you found this one a little trickier, because it was backrouted countless times during testing .

Soft 06 - Intended. Using Shimmiers + Gliders to turn a lemming around is indeed the new thing that's supposed to be taught here. The trick was even less obvious before you implemented the physics change Because that bar on the left could still look like all the other ones back then. After the physics change, in order to give the Glider sufficient height again to bump into the wall and turn around, I had to do this weird carved-out part that you see now, which gives away a little more that you need to do something special there.

Soft 07 - Intended. Yes, it's probably what "Glide and joy" was in Lemmings World Tour. A potential early roadblock. It's in position 07, again, as an homage to "Builders will help you here".

Soft 08 - Intended. Thanks, you were the first one to use the Glider solution!

Soft 09 - Very close to intended. You managed to pull it off without the Miner.

Soft 10 - Intended. Yes, I remember from your feedback to the Groupie level I had made in your style for Lemmings World Tour that the extent to which one-way arrows cover chunks of terrain is one of your signature concerns. In this case, it would bother me if not the entire height of the pillar was covered; but it's just one pixel-width on the left and right side each, which actually makes it look quite symmetrical to me.

[Gronkling]

Is there a way to turn that rain effect off? Turning off background images doesn't turn it off. I find the levels with this on actually unplayable, even looking at it for half a minute was enough to give me a mild headache.
I'm finding this fun otherwise though!

[Strato Incendus]

The fact that you're asking about rain objects gives me an idea of how far you've already progressed into the pack... I can't say I'm surprised though, that you got this far so quickly - given that the pack you were working on, Lemmings Evolution, was also expected to be one of the most difficult ones out there.

If the rain is distracting you or actively causing you health issues (do we need an epilepsy warning on levels featuring certain objects now? ) - well, you could always open the level file and delete all instances of the rain object... either in the text file or by opening it in the editor.

I know it's a bit of a hassle, but that's one of the great advantages about the New Formats, with the loose levels files being the same ones that are actually being used in the game. No more "loose level file first, then compiled into a pack" etc. You could change anything you want about a level before you play it: Sprites, background, music...

Of course, that also allows to modify a level to make it easier to play, but I think everyone here on the forums understands that they're just fooling themselves if they "cheat" that way .

Assuming that you'll want to modify the level files, which are ordered in the folders alphabetically by name, not by rank and level number, I'm just giving you the titles of the levels that contain rain objects, so that you can edit them all in one swoop:

Levels with precipitation ;D

Soft rank: Raindrops keep falling on my head
Loud rank: November rain; Red rain; In the bleak midwinter (snow)
Heavy rank: A change of seasons (both rain and snow)
Hardcore rank: Hammer-smashed face; Wipe your ass with sandpaper

I'm finding this fun otherwise though!

Thanks a lot, great to hear!

[Gronkling]

It's not a serious health issue I just get headaches easily

[namida]

^ It would be far less effort to just blank out the PNG file of the rain object.

[Strato Incendus]

Little did namida know that I have actually used several different rain objects in different colours...

Guess what, on a level called "Red rain", the rain will be... red. That's part of my strato_generalmd tileset. And Lemmings World Tour had "Purple rain", for eponymous reasons.

And for the regular rain, I sometimes used the one from Arty's new special tileset, sometimes his older version of the standard rain object, which I had integrated into my strato_generalmd tileset. The reason for that is that the new rain is more transparent, but also more "shaky", which actually makes it more distracting to me sometimes than the old version of the rain object with full opacity.

So Gronkling would have to blank all rain objects in his styles folders. They should only be in arty_special and strato_generalmd at this point... however, I remember that for a while, the rain object had been moved to namida's Sky tileset. I don't think it's there anymore, though. I think I recall that I had to change those references in the level files after an update.

[Gronkling]

I attached my replays for the first rank! Very fun pack so far

Level feedback

Spoiler

• Saved a blocker and an extra lemming, a nice start to the pack solution-wise but really needs work aesthetically, it wasn't a good very first impression
• 
• 
• I only used 3 miners, seems very easy
• Saved 4 skills and 7 extra lemmings, the one way arrows are hard to make out
• This one seems really easy compared to the others
• Nice one, didn't find it too hard compared to other people
• Didn't like this one, I saw the solution right away and took quite a long time just trying to get it to work
• Saved 5 extra lemmings, my solution is a mess but it works
• A nice one, but the aesthetics are rushed feeling
• 
• One of the harder ones for me so far, I enjoyed it though
• 
• Saved 4 skills, decent level
• 
• Very easy, did it on my very first attempt
• Saved 1 skill
• Saved 2 skills
• 
• 
• Not a fan, felt very fiddly
• Saved 3 skills
• Saved 4 skills
• 
• One of my faves yet
• Saved 1 skill (I removed all the rain)
• 
• Backrouty feeling solution but it used all the skills
• Saved 1 skill
• Saved 2 skills

[namida]

Continuing on...

Spoiler

Soft 11 - This is a great level, though the execution was a bit finnicky. Not sure how easily that can really be addressed, though.
Soft 12 - This one was very easy compared to a lot of the others. I will note that it could be a little bit less finnicky by moving the water a bit lower.
Soft 13 - Alright, back to hard again, and a very good level!
Soft 14 - Another really tricky one. Figuring out what the gliders were for was a real facepalm moment for me - I was trying far more complicated things first.
Soft 15 - This might be the hardest one so far, and it's really good too.

Overall, I definitely would not call this pack "medium" difficulty-wise. Even these first-rank levels are very hard.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks a lot for all your enthusiasm, folks! The first version was downloaded by a whopping 48 people. This far exceeds any hopes and expectations I had for this pack!

Now that count has been reset to 0, because I've uploaded the first minor update, with just two small fixes / changes based on Gronkling's solutions.

Changelog

Soft 04, "This time": The talisman now requires you to only use 3 Miners, not 4. Sorry to everyone who had attained it already, but that was indeed pretty much... everyone. In diagnostics of cognitive performance, we call this a "ceiling effect". If everyone can attain a talisman easily, it doesn't really mean anything. Thanks to Gronkling for finding this new solution! (And also, I didn't want two talismans on the same level, especially not on such a simple one, where the difference between bronze and silver would literally just have been 1 more instance of the same skill.)

Soft 23, "Don't worry, be happy": The fire pit has been made slightly higher. The talisman is still attainable, this solution isn't impacted by this.

Responses to Gronkling (Soft rank)

01: Better than the intended solution; slightly worse than the talisman solution, though, because you needed the Floater.
02: Intended.
03: Intended.
04: Oh wow, this is the first solution I see using only 3 Miners! Maybe I should make that the talisman requirement? Since solving it with 4 of 5 Miners seems to be something literally everyone is capable of.
05: A lot more skill-efficient than intended.
06: Intended.
07: Intended.
08: Intended.
09: You're the first one who used the Stackers on the left with the Climber, which is part of the intended solution. The rest you did completely differently, but that's absolutely fine! It's amazing how many different, yet equally difficult solutions this level seems to have!
10: Intended.
11: Intended.
12: Intended.
13: Intended.
14: Slightly more skill-efficient than intended.
15: Intended.
16: Intended.
17: Valid alternative solution! This one was rife with backroutes initially, so I'm glad to see you had to use all but one skill.
18: Efficient alternative solution.
19: Intended. You just "split up the Platformers" by platforming partly high, partly low across the water. I just sealed up the entire pond at the same altitude.
20: Intended.
21: Intended.
22: More efficient than intended. You didn't need the Blocker to cancel the Digger, because you dug in just the right place to still leave 1 pixel behind that broke the fall. Also, no second worker lemming (Climber) required to platform from the exit to the Miner tunnel from the left. Still, I leave those skills in here, because other people clearly needed them for their solution. It's still the first rank, after all.
23: That's the only minor backroute. One of my testers already platformed over that fire area, but then had to use so many of the other skills elsewhere that I was fine with it as an alternative solution. This one however saves a few too many skills for my liking, so I can no longer allow that shortcut. Thus, as a side effect, one of my tester's earlier solutions broke now. Sorry! I just checked though, the talisman is still attainable.
24: Intended. Funny though that nobody fences from the right after the pioneer lemming is done building. I could enforce this with one-way arrows, but it doesn't really change anything. In fact, one-way arrows sometimes give the solution away more than if they weren't there.
25: Intended. Actually probably even slightly better than intended. I'm pretty sure though that the last Stacker wouldn't even have been necessary. This is because you used two stacks on top of each other to pen in the crowd, instead of using that pole of three red squares. If you do the latter, you need the additional Stacker to prevent any Climbers from getting trapped between the "containment stack" and the "release-the-crowd-again" stack.
26: Yay, climbing through corners! A good trick to know, might be come relevant on later levels. Here this allowed you a slightly more efficient solution.
27: Intended.
28: Intended.
29: And here's another open-ended one with countless equally fascinating solutions. You're the first one I see who solved this level from the right side.
30: Slightly more efficient than intended. You saved 2 Platformers, despite building up all the way to the chain on the left, instead of using another Stoner to turn around there.

Responses to namida (Soft 11-15)

11: A slight variation on the intended solution: You bashed the Stoner away again after having used the Stacker to prevent the crowd from walking into the water once the Stoner was removed. The intended solution uses the Stacker to build over the Stoner from the right, so that it never actually has to be removed.
12: This is the more efficient version of the intended solution: Stoning on the left instead of the right side of the gap saves two Shimmiers.
13: Intended.
14: Similar to Gronkling's solution, a little more efficient than intended. Don't know what that last Climber was for that went straight to the exit, though .
15: Also pretty much intended. You can platform from either side, but you definitely need the Shimmier to mine, because the Climber is needed to get back up the pillar after collecting the Basher pickups. And enforcing the Shimmier going along the bottom side of the Platformer bridge is what this level is all about.

It's fascinating to see how much the individual perception of difficulty differs.
There seems to be some consensus that Soft 07 is quite hard, and a lot of people don't enjoy Soft 08 (if it comforts you, I tried to enforce that trick on several levels, and this one seems to be the only one where you actually have to do it - but the level doesn't really consist of anything else aside from the main trick, so it's over quickly ).

However, as early as Soft 05, some people already find that challenging, others way too easy. Even about the first two levels you can already argue which one is harder; that seems to depend entirely on how much practice a given player has with the classic skills vs. the NeoLemmix skills, including what tricks you can do by combining them in various ways.

Especially Soft 12 - Soft 14 though seem to vary drastically in how difficult people perceive them to be:

Soft 12: Hard for Gronkling, easy for namida, and ericderkovits even seems to be stuck on this
Soft 13: Hard for namida, easy for nin10doadict (back during early testing)
Soft 14: Seems to have been easier for Gronkling than for namida, although their solutions were pretty similar

[ericderkovits]

Ok I solved the Soft rank (had to resolve Soft 23 with new update as my replay broke). Also I redid my soft 4 replay to get the Talisman(using only 3 miners)

Also I got all 3 Talisman's in this rank.

Anyways I'm surprised I was able to solve these as I'm not very good. I'm really enjoying this pack because the levels are not huge unlike Icho's Reunion and United. Also I like the fact most
levels just use the L1 styles. I know I probably backrouted most as I did in the 1st 11 levels that Strato said were unintended. Also these levels are very difficult for a 1st rank. minus a few that were easy.

Anyways here are my Soft rank replays.


Also I think Willem should Lp this 1st rank. If I can solve these he can, since I'm lousy at solving.

[David]

Very nice pack Strato Incendus. I just solved soft levels 1 to 7 (with talismans). Replays as attachment.

So far, no level has really been a problem for me, but I had to think for a long time for soft 2.

For soft 6, I didn't understand what the shimmier should be used for. I didn't need to use it, anyway, to solve the puzzle !

I really liked soft 7, not easy either !

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks a lot, David! Here are my responses to your replays.

Soft 01-07

01: Intended (Talisman).
02: Oh wow, I didn't know an alternative solution to this one even existed! So you don't actually have to use the Stacker-Stoner trick if you manage to save the Fencer this way for cutting through the stack. That said, you used an advanced Shimmier application here, on the first level where the Shimmier is ever required. So I guess you can imagine this is not the intended solution. It's not a backroute either; it just means "don't think that this level of obscurity is what I actually meant to demand from the player as early as rank 1, level 02" .
03: Intended.
04: Intended (Talisman).
05: Nice job saving everyone on this one! I might make this another talisman in the next update (but I don't upload new updates for talismans alone, only when backroute fixes are required).
06: I could easily prevent bashing against the steel here, but I liked how this alternative approach forced you to place your remaining Bashers a little more thoughtfully than in the intended solution, where you just cut through the staircases again one by one. This is because when you have the Glider shimmy on that carved-out bar, he will bump against the wall and turn around, leaving you the additional Basher you  needed to turn the worker lemming around before building the staircases.
07: Variation of the intended solution; this is the same timing-based approach that ericderkovits used.

I'll respond to ericderkovits's new replays in a second comment later. I just want to say two things already, and those are obviously...

Also I think Willem should Lp this 1st rank.

Thanks a lot for recommending this pack for an LP!

If I can solve these he can, since I'm lousy at solving.

...or you might just be getting better already , now that you spend more time playing yourself instead of watching other people's replays.

[namida]

Response to Strato's comment on Soft 14

14: Similar to Gronkling's solution, a little more efficient than intended. Don't know what that last Climber was for that went straight to the exit, though .

I thought I might need that extra climber, later realised I didn't, but as he did no harm I left him in the replay.

[kaywhyn]

I continue to be amazed at how many people are actually playing through this pack and the huge amount of replays coming in already, considering that it has only been a few days since the pack's release. I'm not sure if the same can be said of other packs that have been released in the past. My congrats to both Gronkling and eric for finishing the Soft rank I'm not surprised about Gronkling, even though I haven't gotten to know him until now, as I just started posting earlier this year even though I've been a registered member since 2017 but in the few years after I have been visiting the site daily and only been silently reading the posts in the background. I have only played his Gronkling6 and Gronkling7 packs for Lemmini, the two packs that make extensive use of Lemmini glitches. While I was able to beat all of the latter, 2 levels remain unsolved for me in the former, one of which is a level that is in the Bonus rank of RotL for Lemmini, the Mystery Machine. Still unbeaten by me after almost 3 years! I have read through the Lemmini glitch topic so many times, and I'm still not sure which one needs to be used to solve it, let alone if it's actually listed. It's very easy to just save 1 lemming, but you need to save both, which I haven't been successful in doing yet. The other unsolved level is Bring it Together, although I haven't spent too much time on it. I might be able to get it given enough time, but that remains to be seen.

On the other hand, it surprises me that eric got through the entire Soft rank. It's even more amazing if he managed to get through it without seeing anyone's replays for a slight hint, which sounds like he was able to do so, albeit with a lot of struggling. To add to Strato, it's definitely nice to finally see him actually playing through packs, as I have said over and over that this is how one gets better at level solving. It also amuses me how he started with difficult packs, eg, Artlems and LOA, rather than the other way around of starting with easier packs. Claims of not being a good solver serve only to lead one to doubt him/herself, as you never know unless you try. It's also one that I refuse to believe, as I'm sure he's better at solving than he claims to be. In the same way that I'm certain I wouldn't be good at level designing, but the thing is I won't know that I truly am good or bad at it unless I try. I have recently played around with the editor for very Old Formats, as well as Datpacker and FlexiTool and was able to figure some stuff out on my own for my very first time using them. Perhaps this will make it easier for me to learn how to use the New Formats editor. That is, when I eventually start using and playing around with it As with anything, the best way to learn is to simply imitate the files when making a pack, so that is where I would start myself.

Anyways I'm surprised I was able to solve these as I'm not very good. I'm really enjoying this pack because the levels are not huge unlike Icho's Reunion and United. Also I like the fact most
levels just use the L1 styles. I know I probably backrouted most as I did in the 1st 11 levels that Strato said were unintended. Also these levels are very difficult for a 1st rank. minus a few that were easy.

If you haven't noticed, Strato is a huge fan of creating small landscapes with restrictive skillsets. Even then, don't be fooled, as if done well they can be deceptively difficult levels. As I have pointed out before, these levels give the impression and take on the appearance of being a seemingly easy level, but in actuality is a hard level. The same can be said about very large levels. They often give the impression of appearing to be a difficult level, but in actuality aren't too hard. If anything, I think psychologically they are designed to intimidate more than anything, just from the sheer huge size of the level.

LOA is supposed to be harder on average than the other packs Strato has ever released. If you came into LOA expecting an easy first rank, then you were far off. We did warn that the first rank isn't easy at all. Since that was especially true with you, expect the remaining 3 ranks to be even more so. Sure, I found a lot of levels in LOA that others thought were hard easy, and so I tend to be surprised when reading that from other players, but when I take a step back and realize that we're talking about the average and less experienced players, it makes complete sense that these people would find them hard. Even then, I'm in complete agreement with some of the feedback on some levels that highly experienced people like namida and Gronkling found hard, as I also experienced somewhat of a similar struggle on such levels.

[Gronkling]

I forgot about that pack, I think its probably the best one of my lemmini days if you dont mind glitches and horribly precise assignments, the glitch used in that level is listed on that topic. Also I'm about 2/3s through the 2nd rank now, I'm actually finding it a bit easier than the 1st rank I think, though the 2nd level was one of the hardest yet.

[ericderkovits]

ok, It seems loud is starting off hard. I got level 1 solved but I'm struggling with getting the Talisman.

And yes level 2 is real hard.

I figured since Gronkling said level 2 was very hard in the rank I will give my 2 first loud rank replays (level 1 without the Talisman)

And yes I didn't need any hints for the soft rank. Otherwise why bother doing the levels if you already know the solutions or parts of them.

[kaywhyn]

Yes, I agree with the both of you that Loud 2 is a hard one. I also struggled with it for about a good 10 minutes or so. If I'm not mistaken, this level was originally a late Soft rank level and ended up swapping places with the original Loud 2 level.

I forgot about that pack, I think its probably the best one of my lemmini days if you dont mind glitches and horribly precise assignments, the glitch used in that level is listed on that topic. Also I'm about 2/3s through the 2nd rank now, I'm actually finding it a bit easier than the 1st rank I think, though the 2nd level was one of the hardest yet.

Thanks for letting me know, Gronkling! In particular, I appreciate not giving any of the solution anyway. The only other question I have is is it a very precise assignment? I have tried everything and I can't seem to get any glitch to work other than the stuck climber glitch.

And yes I didn't need any hints for the soft rank. Otherwise why bother doing the levels if you already know the solutions or parts of them.

Well, you can still do the level even if you have seen some of the solution. By my previous post, I meant seeing a replay for a slight hint on the parts you're stuck on and then you stop watching from that point and carry out the rest of the level yourself from there. Good to know that you did the entire Soft rank spoiler free!

[Gronkling]

Finished rank 2! I actually found this one easier than the first rank, though I could see a few of the more obscure tricks catching people out. I also saved skills on more levels here than last time. Still a really fun pack!

Full comments

Spoiler

• This was a weird way to start the rank, feels more like a breather level than something you see first. I saved 7 diggers but I don't think that matters here
• I'd still say this one is the hardest of the second rank for me
• 
• 
• Saved 2 skills
• Rather easy
• Saved 5 skills and an extra lemming
• Saved 2 skills and an extra lemming
• Saved 2 skills and an extra lemming
• Saved 1 skill
• Saved 3 skills
• 
• Saved 1 skill, that trap is nastily hidden, I should give it an idle animation
• Saved 5 skills
• Saved 12 skills and 2 extra lemmings
• Saved 1 skill
• Saved 2 skills
• Saved 2 skills, I like my solution to this one even though it's backroutey and horrid
• 
• Saved 9 skills and 4 extra lemmings, another fun backroutey trick
• Saved 4 skills and 3 extra lemmings, really didn't like this one, both the repetitive trick which I assume is correct and the weird water wall thing
• Never thought of the first trick I used here before, really cool if intended, probably my favourite of this rank
• Saved 1 skill
• fun trick
• Saved 1 skill
• I have to say I really didn't like this one, sorry, really ugly with random objects embedded in terrain and way too much flashing everywhere, with a finnicky solution
• Saved 1 skill, this one was confusingly easy
• Saved 2 skills, another oddly easy one that just feels like a classic-style, "send one ahead to build and stuff" level
• Saved 2 skills
• Saved 16 skills and 1 extra lemming. A messy solution.

Also in reply to kaywhyn, that level requires some precise assignment (most of my levels do ) but not to a ridiculous level like some of my other stages from that time period.

[kaywhyn]

Congrats on completing the Loud rank, Gronkling!

Finished rank 2! I actually found this one easier than the first rank, though I could see a few of the more obscure tricks catching people out.

Haha great minds think alike. I echoed the exact same thing about the Loud rank feeling much easier than the Soft rank when I pretested LOA.

Also in reply to kaywhyn, that level requires some precise assignment (most of my levels do ) but not to a ridiculous level like some of my other stages from that time period.

Ok, thanks. I'll see if I can put 2 and 2 together and figure it out then.

[Strato Incendus]

Well, you can still do the level even if you have seen some of the solution. By my previous post, I meant seeing a replay for a slight hint on the parts you're stuck on and then you stop watching from that point and carry out the rest of the level yourself from there. Good to know that you did the entire Soft rank spoiler free!

Indeed; that's precisely what I'm doing while playing SEB Lems at the moment. And I did it back in the day with Lemmings Migration as well. I think it's fair to say that the Murder rank of SEB Lems is now to me what Lemmings Migration was back then: I usually can figure out 95% of the solution, but then I always find myself one skill short. And the frustrating part is, it's not like I solve some levels completely and others not at all, it's 95% for the vast majority of levels. That's how you know you've reached your current skill threshold.

Regarding Gronkling's replays, I'll take one thing out of the spoiler and just disguise which level it refers to:

that trap is nastily hidden, I should give it an idle animation

Well, that's one of many reasons why it's a good thing to not only have you back on the forums again, but also as a player of this pack now

Because I have indeed been calling for secondary animations to be added to those traps (link). I think I even made suggestions in that thread what they could look like.

Responses to ericderkovits's remaining Soft replays (12-30)

12: That was a combination of the two intended solutions (either platforming & building from the left or right side).
13: What a weird alternative solution, but you still ended up using all the skills!
14: Yeah, seems like nobody is using the intended trick here... maybe that's why a certain other level is so hard later on. At the same time, that means I should definitely not enforce it as early as Soft 14. There's just an opportunity to learn the trick here - but no obligation to use it yet.
15: You always platformed from the left, but this is just a variation of the intended solution.
16: Intended.
17: Used all skills except for one, fine by me.
18: Used all the skills, valid alternative solution.
19: I think you're the first one who just platformed over everything. Not necessarily wrong, but it turns the level into one giant Platformer fest, which isn't particularly exciting for anyone. This will require a minor fix in terms of lowering the ceiling a little further at one point, so expect this solution to be broken. Since nobody else built over the top so far, nobody else's solution should be affected by this change.
20: Intended.
21: Intended.
22: Exactly as intended! That's why it's good I left the additional skills in, even if some other people found even more efficient ways so that they didn't have to use them.
23: This looks pretty much like Armani's talisman solution.
24: You really do like your timing-based solutions, don't you? This might have been a reason to push me over the edge and actually do place one-way arrows in order to enforce fencing from the right... but then again, you still used all the skills, so why should I argue against a timing-based solution more on this level than on Soft 07?
25: Intended. Just like with Gronkling, though, I'm pretty sure that last Stacker wouldn't have been necessary, since you managed to free the Climber crowd without having anyone trapped between stacks (which is what the additional Stacker is there for, in order to prevent crowd lemmings from getting trapped). Thus, you simply could have allowed the pioneer to drop down on the Platformer bridge he made from the right. This fall is not splat height. But of course, sending him all the way around again looks cool. And since you did, at that point the Stacker was indeed relevant again, otherwise he would have walked into the trap when he climbed back up to the part where you collected the pickup skill.
26: Looks like nobody wants to shimmy over the exit. Building and then fencing right away made your solution slightly more skill-efficient, but it's still basically intended.
27: Intended. This one seems to be pretty rock-solid at enforcing its solution, thanks to extensive testing!
28: Intended. You can either shimmy along the bottom side of the pole (as you did) or shimmy briefly along one link of the chain to land the pioneer on top of the pole so he can walk over it.
29: And yet another fine alternative solution for this one! I believe this is the first one I see where somebody actually saved some skills. That includes the Digger at the end, because much like with the Stacker on Soft 25, that final drop on the right is not splat height, so you wouldn't have had to use the Digger: There's a small protruding part of the building that breaks the fall; you only need to use the Digger there if you want to make the building Climber-friendly, which is indeed part of the intended solution. For that reason, maybe I actually should have made that drop splat height. But there are so many cool different solutions to this one out that I don't really see the point in making further changes to it and potentially breaking some of those solutions as a side effect.
30: Close to intended. There is some degree of liberty here which obstacles you overcome with Bombers vs. Builders/Platformers, and whether you use Bombers or Stoners to turn around lemmings at the right spots.

My responses to Gronkling's Loud replays are coming later in a separate comment!

[Strato Incendus]

Finished rank 2! I actually found this one easier than the first rank, though I could see a few of the more obscure tricks catching people out.

Haha great minds think alike. I echoed the exact same thing about the Loud rank feeling much easier than the Soft rank when I pretested LOA.

Seems like this is a regular thing with my packs, then, because many also reported the Professional rank of Lemmings World Tour to be easier than the first two ranks.

I assume this is because, once I start making the intended solutions more complex, I also start adding in more degrees of freedom. Which in the worst case leads to more backroutes, in the best case at least leads to more alternative solutions (i.e. where most or all of the skills are used, but not necessarily in the intended way).

This will become apparent in my responses to your Loud replays in a minute.

Responses to ericderkovits

Both of your solutions to Loud 01 and 02 are intended! Congratulations, especially for beating Loud 02!

The Stoner-Platformer trick in the Miner tunnel is indeed the thing that also could have been used on Soft 14, but wasn't required there yet.

And don't worry about the talisman on Loud 01; that one just exists because Armani is a genius. I didn't come up with that solution myself, but when I saw it, I was so blown away that I just had to create some kind of reward for it.

Responses to Gronkling (Loud rank)

01: Intended.
02: Intended. You actually had the Climber walk up into the Bomber's crater before bashing; the strictly-intended version is to bash while the Climber is still standing on the previous pole, showing that you can actually bash across tiny gaps. But of course, it's not required. Lots of different tricks here! Mainly turning around one Climber in the other's Basher tunnel, and of course stoning + platforming to connect the bottom with the upper Miner shaft in the absence of Builders. As I told ericderkovits, this is also possible, though not required, on Soft 14.
03: Intended.
04: Intended.
05: Intended. The Climber is a red herring skill. (And the Bomber technically as well, though it should be immediately obvious that it can't be used; it's just there to fill out the classic 8-slot skill panel.)
06: Intended.
07: The intended solution is hard to completely enforce here, but this is close enough for me.
08: A little more skill-efficient than intended. If I'm not mistaken, you might even have spared an additional Basher if you had dug with the Shimmier-to-be a little further to the left.

09: Believe it or not, you're actually the first one to make use of the fact that the pioneer is a Climber. For some reason, everyone else wasted an additional Builder building up into the niche of that rock before turning around to yet again build over to the ramp that leads up to the exit.
The intended solution sends the Climber down a Digger shaft on the very left side. Some others used the Miner to get straight down into the water. It wasn't worth sealing up the entire right chunk with steel at the bottom, though. This is still just the second rank, so a little more leeway in this regard is fine.
Unless you think the level feels less "rewarding" this way? I'm just asking for your honest opinion here, did this feel like a backroute to you?

10: Valid alternative solution; you didn't need the Bomber but that's okay.
11: Also close enough, just a few skills spared and still sufficiently difficult, I assume.
12: Well, I understand your emoji here means you really enjoyed this one. Some found this level inappropriately easy, but I for one know this is exactly the type of deceptively difficult / seemingly easy puzzle I would have struggled with immensely when starting out.
13: Intended. Yes, that trap sadly looks exactly like the hole in the tree. I even made it overwrite so that it's displayed on top of the tree, so it's not actually hidden behind terrain. So that's indeed something only secondary animations, like red squirrel eyes peeking out of the hole, could fix.
14: You didn't use any Walkers, Stackers, or Diggers? Great, that will become another talisman! You're the first one to solve this level with such efficiency!
15: Clear backroute. This one is a gift that keeps on giving. I've already made a bunch of skills pickups; now the Stoner is one as well. I think that one was the major problem (or at least I hope so!).
16: Pretty much intended.
17: More skill-efficient indeed, but this one is hard enough even if you use them. So no changes required here.
18: That was a very clever way of penning in the crowd! This is what I meant back then when I said that Shimmiers (and Jumpers) would be just as powerful as Walkers in many regards, simply because of their ability to easily cancel skills. Such cleverness should be rewarded, though; I wouldn't call this a backroute simply because you saved two skills. Because you did so by displaying clear knowledge of advanced and creative Shimmier applications, which is precisely what this pack is (among others) all about!
19: Intended. A little difficult to pull off timing-wise, but not as precise as I thought at first, fortunately.
20: Backroute. Welcome to the first clearly unfixable level of the pack. The reason I didn't cut and replace it though is because during testing, I found out that, even though this level is so vulnerable to backroutes, even those backroutes are actually not that easy to find. In fact, one of my testers got completely stumped by this.
21: Backroute. No, the Stoner staircase is not required. The intended solution is far more stupid than that. This seems to become another thing, though: People find ways to backroute my levels with Stoner staircases and then accuse me of having made a Stoner staircase my supposed intended solution. Fortunately, a little bit of steel fixes this one!
22: Intended.
23: Almost intended. I had no idea it was possible to do it in this order! That allowed you to not have to use the Blocker at all, instead of having to free it.
24: Almost intended. I had the Basher connecting the two crowds simultaneously cut through the pioneer's Builder staircase behind him, as I've learned it from a level in PimoLems. However, simply connecting the two crowds with the tunnel a couple of pixels below where the Builder even starts building works just as well! And feels slightly less obscure, so it eases my conscience. Originally, the Climber was supposed to be another semi-red-herring here as well: Tempting you to isolate the pioneer by making him a Climber, who would then go up into the fire trap. But it allowed alternative solutions too liberally, which is why there is that protruding piece of terrain now to prevent the pioneer from simply climbing out of the crowd. Thus, I'm glad to see this level's solution finally enforced!
25: Intended. The Climber is optional, allowing the player the slight leeway of stacking first before turning around. Being a Climber would then allow him to climb over his own stack (but of course, that comes with the trade-off that if he turns around again, he'll climb back over the stack and drown).
26: You did quite a few things differently than intended here - the intended solution is basically one big exercise in making a Miner go through all kinds of objects (bouncing off Blockers, going through the teleporter, then bouncing off the force field and finally off the splitter, which you have to switch once first). That's why the objects are embedded in terrain, and displayed on top of it so as to not be invisible. At the end of the day, you still needed all the skills, and the Miner had to go through at least for some of the distance, so this is a valid alternative solution!
27: Yes, this is more of a breather; keeping the crowd contained isn't actually as hard as I initially thought. And the pillars aren't splat height either. The solution is close enough to intended, though.
28: Close to intended, saved a few skills, that's fine. Regarding the order by difficulty, I just wanted the winter level to come right after the "November" level.
29: I've come to accept that it's very hard to enforce the intended solution here... maybe if I make the Shimmier a pickup skill as well. But it will break some of the cool alternative solutions I've seen for this one. This particular one seemed a little bit too straightforward for my taste. Again, my question to you: Did this feel like a backroute while playing?
30: The main challenge here is the iffy terrain shape. The intended solution is pretty cool, but once again quite hard to enforce completely.

I've already implemented most of the fixes in my level files and I will upload another update tomorrow.

However, for Loud 09 and 29, the decision of whether I will make changes to enforce the intended solution more compared to the alternative ones is still pending.
Thus, I'm making this partly dependent on Gronkling's feedback to the questions I asked about those two levels.

During testing, I was somewhat lenient with these two levels and allowed the alternative solutions, because I liked those, too.
But the more people are playing now, if there are levels where I never actually see the intended solution at all, I'm inclined to make those levels a little more strict.

And I think it's early enough since the first release of the pack that such comparatively major changes to individual levels would still be somewhat fair.
I generally try to avoid moving levels around between or within ranks after release, because it messes up everyone else's replay files (since usually, only the level creator has them sorted by level name, because that's what the editor does).

[Gronkling]

Level 9 felt fine, the shimmier part of level 29 felt very good though the rest seemed too simple. Also when I give a it just means I don't have any particular comments, its just a good level.

[namida]

More progress

Soft 16 - This level was one of the easiest so far, but it's still a nice level. I very much like the walker pickup  / preplaced blocker combo! Also, this is one of my least favorite music tracks normally, but I really like your version!
Soft 17 - Okay, this one was even easier. Also, compared to all the other music so far which has a rock feel to it, this one felt far more country. Nice change.
Soft 18 - Also relatively easy, though harder than the last two. I managed to avoid the Fencer; it could also be used to avoid the need for the Stacker (or both could be excluded at the same time via very good timing). Also, how come it went to Orig_01 again and not Ohno_01 here?

Currently stumped on 19. I get the general idea but can't quite figure out how to put it all together (no hints yet please).

[kaywhyn]

O.o Soft 19 is a really good level. I too was initially stumped, and I remember giving up for the night back when I pretested the pack, but shortly after I exited out I had a realization and quickly went back and tried out the idea I had in mind, and sure enough it was indeed the missing link that prevented me from solving it. Based on my experiences, it must be the very start that has you stuck, because once you figure that out the rest is very easy. You can do this, namida!

[Strato Incendus]

Alright, second update time!

Level 9 felt fine, the shimmier part of level 29 felt very good though the rest seemed too simple.

Thanks for your feedback!

I did think back and forth about this, but it dawned on me that if I don't fix these two levels now, I will regret it down the road, as more and more people will go with alternative solutions and nobody will ever perform the intended one.

It feels a little weird to fix these two levels now after I had been more lenient on them during testing. But at least I still only break my two testers' solutions at this point, plus Gronkling's - instead of everyone's.

So, sorry to my testers, but at least now you also still have at least one new "tough nut" to enjoy cracking! Because "'tis the season", isn't it?

And now, without further ado, here is the

Changelog

Soft 05: added a talisman for saving everyone (David's solution)
Soft 17: raised the steel blocks at the beginning a little so that there's no terrain sticking out above them
Soft 19: lowered the ceiling at one point to prevent platforming over everything (should only break ericderkovits's solution, unless namida is trying the same thing right now )

Loud 01: talisman changed to gold because it's clearly much more difficult to obtain - nothing changed about the requirements, though
Loud 09: added steel to prevent any and all shortcuts directly down to the water and adjusted the one-way arrows a little for improved aesthetics (namida will appreciate it once he gets there, I'm sure! )
Loud 14: added a talisman based on Gronkling's solution
Loud 15: Stoner made a pickup skill as well now
Loud 20: nothing actually changed here; I tried to fix it by raising the fire traps, but that would have broken the intended solution as well, so I had to reverse the change. That's the only reason for the new "last-modified" date
Loud 29: Shimmier made a pickup skill

Responses to namida (Soft 16-18)

16: intended.
17: I agree this looked to easy, which is why I made the above-explained minor fix to break the beginning part . It's still a largely open-ended flow control level, though.
18: Closer to intended than anyone before! Finally someone who uses the "Miner going through" tactic again. I'm glad this level doesn't require it, though, given the apparent unpopularity (in comparison) of Soft 08...

[namida]

Spoiler

18: Closer to intended than anyone before! Finally someone who uses the "Miner going through" tactic again. I'm glad this level doesn't require it, though, given the apparent unpopularity (in comparison) of Soft 08...

I think in this case, it's not so bad. You're not trying to set it up over a long range, spanning multiple bridges, without much indication of where they should go, etc. Rather, it's quite clear how this should work out, and there's decent room for error.

[namida]

Re-solves / continuing

Soft 4 - Got the talisman. Not too impressed with it.
Soft 5 - Got this talisman too. A bit more interesting here.
Soft 17 - Re-solved, and this feels even more backroute-y.
Soft 19 - Solved now. I was overcomplicating it before, if anything, I think.
Soft 20 - Middle of the road difficutly-wise, but a very nice level.
Soft 21 - I do like the overall solution, but the execution - crowd control in particular - was needlessly messy.
Soft 22 - I chuckled a bit at the intro text. That aside, this solution might not be intended, it feels a bit too precision-reliant.
Soft 23 - This has got to be a backroute.
Soft 24 - Either I backrouted this too, or "all possible uses of the Shimmier" even includes "as a pure decoy skill".
Soft 25 - Music sequence break again? Anyway, this one might be a backroute too, as I didn't need the pickup skill.

[ericderkovits]

Ok, I had to resolve 2 levels that broke, soft 17 and 19

I already knew soft 19 was going to change in the update so I solved it even before the update. (due to platforming high up)

Also I got the Talisman for soft 5, but I saved 61 because there was a cloner in the level.

Also I solved the 1st 10 levels so far of Loud, and yes only level 2 was hard among the 1st 10 of Loud. (I also got the Talisman for Loud 8)
Of course I still can't get the Talisman for Loud 1, just too difficult. And the Update didn't break my Loud 10 replay.

Anyways here are my 3 levels of soft.(2 resolves + soft 5 Talisman(61 saved))
             and the 1st 10 levels of Loud replays

[David]

Strato Incendus : Thank you very much for these personalized explanations. I redid Soft level 2 and I think I found the expected solution (see replay !). I hadn't thought of using the glider when the shimmier was hooked. This is stupid ! But... I like my idea of using the stoner when the shimmier is jumping.

I continued up to level 14 (out of order... ), and honestly find the levels pretty difficult overall (see replays !)

For fun, I took a look at the first 5 levels of the hardcore rank and I passed levels 1, 3 and 4, I found them quite easy (I have the replays, but I'll post them later ...). Bye !

[Strato Incendus]

Responses to ericderkovits (Loud 03-10)

I already gave you the feedback for the first two Loud levels, so I'll continue with level 3:

03: Intended.
04: Intended.
05: You can use a Shimmier to make a Climber jump off the wall? The Climber is actually intended as a red herring skill. I'm fine with this alternative solution (the Bomber can't be used, obviously, because you have to save everyone). I just never would have thought this was possible.
06: Intended.
07: Valid alternative solution! The intended one is pretty hard to enforce.
08: Valid alternative solution.
09: Yes, this is much closer to the intended solution now! Just the way you prevented the crowd (and the returning Climber) from falling into the Digger shaft is a little different, but just a fine alternative approach.
10: Close enough to the intended solution.

Your solutions to the re-solved Soft levels are fine as well! Good to know it's even possible to save everyone on Soft 05, including the Cloner.
I won't make that an additional talisman, though .

Responses to namida (up to Soft 25)

Soft 04: Didn't mean to impress anyone with this ; I just wanted to make the requirement slightly tighter, and at least you have to fiddle with the release rate in some way (or let the crowd pass first, which most likely also entails cranking up the release rate).
Soft 05: You're the first one to actually use the Dolly-Dimple strategy, which is indeed part of the intended solution!
Soft 17: Yes, but this is actually closer to the intended solution than what you did before. I'm considering removing the second Fencer, because a lot of people seem to use it for mere stalling, and the intended solution doesn't actually require it... I just liked to provide 2 of every skill here.
Soft 19: Intended.
Soft 20: Intended.
Soft 21: Intended.
Soft 22: That's a neat way of taking the entire crowd down to the ground right at the start, and then penning them in with the Blocker. Nice alternative solution!
Soft 23: Yes, it is a backroute; that stalactite in the middle needs a steel chunk in addition to the higher fire pit I implemented last time.
Soft 24: This is actually closer to the intended solution than what anyone else has done so far, because you fenced from the right side, with the pioneer. The Shimmier is just there to help you get over the stack at the beginning, by having the lemming grab the staircase and lifting himself onto the stack.
Soft 25: Just slightly more skill efficient than the intended solution, no problem!

I also need to correct my previous statements to some of the solutions to Soft 25:

Soft 25

Now that I think about it, using the Stacker pickup skill was indeed necessary on all of those solutions.

Not to save the pioneer himself, but to prevent the crowd (who are all Climbers as well) from going into the trap on the right.

namida's solution to this level is actually the first one which doesn't use the Stacker pickup skill.

Regarding music choices:

The standard rotation emulates that of original lemmings, i.e. restarts at Soft 18. However, whenever I used an ONML tileset, I resorted to one of the ONML tracks, which played throughout the Noisemaker rank of Lemmings World Tour.

Responses to David's new replays later in a second comment!

[Strato Incendus]

Next update is here, because we had three further backroutes with yesterday's version:

Changelog

Soft 11: added more steel because David had managed to just barely dig around the steel that had been present already to still land on the exit platform from the right side. Then I added the same amount of steel on the right side of the level, just for aesthetics, to keep things symmetrical.
Soft 17: Removed one Fencer since the intended solution doesn't use it anyway, and people were using it for stalling. Sadly, this breaks the nice "2 of everything" pattern, but I hope the level will become a little more restrictive this way.
Soft 23: added a steel block to the stalactite

Responses to David (Soft 02 + 08 - 14)

02: This is the intended solution this time.
08: Intended.
09: Fine alternative solution.
10: Intended.
11: Severe backroute (see above), fixed with the new update.
12: The more skill-efficient of the two intended solutions.
13: This is similar to the "weird" solution namida found. You saved one Basher, but used every other skill, so this is still fine.
14: Skill efficient but still okay.

For fun, I took a look at the first 5 levels of the hardcore rank and I passed levels 1, 3 and 4, I found them quite easy (I have the replays, but I'll post them later ...). Bye !

Yes, Hardcore 03 and 04 were some of the first levels created for this pack, so they're much easier than what I came up with towards the end.

Since there's still somewhat of a music-genre split between ranks, it's a little like in Lemmings 2: The Tribes, where you have increasing difficulty within each Tribe / rank from the first to the last level, but not necessarily always from the last levels of one rank to the first levels of the next one.

Some of the late Heavy levels (which were created much later than those early Hardcore levels) are probably harder than the begining of Hardcore... but trust me, Hardcore is not going to stay like that for long.

Also, Hardcore 04 in particular might be another one of those "unfixable" levels, at least for adept players, because they'll always find any unfixable backroutes - whereas for average players, they can still pose a challenge, because not all backroutes are equally easy to discover.

For example, David was the very first person to backroute Soft 11, nobody else had even considered doing that.

[ericderkovits]

ok, again my soft 17 broke for the 2nd time with the new update(removing 1 fencer)

no other levels failed(all passed with mass replay check)

Here is my re-resolved soft 17

[kaywhyn]

Once again, all the many replays that have been coming in for the last several days continues to amaze me at how much this pack is currently being played. Even more amazing is how various people have still found ways to backroute a lot of the levels despite having a few pre-testers for the pack This confirms to me that even after a pack is pre-tested, backroutes will surely still show up in some way, as it can just be a case that the pre-testers simply didn't catch them. With only 2-3 of us pre-testing, this was bound to happen anyway. With more pre-testers, each with differing level solving skills, I'm sure there wouldn't be as much backroutes, although it's not much help if several of them happen to find the same solutions. The difference is that the less experienced players will probably be less likely to come up with the same solutions that the experts will see more easily.

I haven't seen a lot of the replays, but I have been reading the level feedback and have commented on them accordingly. Keep up the great work, guys!  

[Gronkling]

Finished rank 3! Some tricky levels here, probably a bit harder overall than rank 1, though not hugely so. However the number of skills I've been saving has increased again, there was only 2 where I didn't save extra.

Spoiler

• Saved 3 skills, 1 extra lemming
• Saved 2 skills, though it doesn't really matter here, this feels more like a rank 1 level designed to introduce the jumper than rank 3
• Saved 2 skills, this solution can be easily adapted to save an extra lemming instead
• Saved 1 skill, 3 extra lemmings
• An oddly easy one, but nice theme
• Saved 3 skills, 1 extra lemming
• Didn't use pickup skill
• Saved 3 skills
• Saved 6 skills with a very backroutey solution
• Only used 2 of the shimmiers
• Saved 1 skill, there's some nice looking levels in this rank
• Saved 6 skills, 1 extra lemming
• Saved 2 skills. Usually not a fan of zombies at all but this one was OK
• Saved 6 skills
• Saved 4 skills
• 
• Saved 2 skills with a messy solution
• Saved 7 skills
• Saved 3 skills, 3 extra lemmings
• Saved 3 skills, 1 extra lemming, but a tricky one
• Saved 5 skills, 1 extra lemming
• Saved 1 skill, this was the hardest level yet
• Saved 4 skills
• Saved 1 skill, 1 extra lemming, didn't really enjoy this one
• Saved 3 skills
• Saved 3 skills, 1 extra lemming, felt too easy
• Saved 1 skill
• Saved 2 skills, 1 extra lemming
• Saved 3 skills, 1 extra lemming
• Saved 2 skills

[Strato Incendus]

Since Gronkling seems to be breezing through this pack, it shouldn't come as a surprise that we already have the next update!

Changelog (only affects the Heavy rank)

01: added upward arrows
03: added a bronze talisman for saving everyone
08: added small amounts of steel
09: added a single steel block
10: added some steel on "Sandman's" left foot (from the player's perspective)
12: added steel (partly overlapped and therefore overwritten by a new block of terrain (which looks the same as the one before), because I only needed a small additional stripe of steel). Finally fixed this notorious backroute which I had never seen a way of dealing with for a long time!
15: added steel
17: a purely cosmetic change: added a Finnish flag! So that hopefully, a couple more people (specifically, the Finns here on the forums ) might get the mythological reference...

This confirms to me that even after a pack is pre-tested, backroutes will surely still show up in some way

Well, I could have told you that long ago, since I was one of the testers for United... IchoTolot sent us so many updates during the test phase that at some point I lost track of what the current version was (aside from the fact that I wasn't able to solve pretty much anything beyond the first rank anyway ). And even still, if you look at the Lemmings United thread right now, it has 22 pages and is currently at version 12.9 (after starting at version 1.0). So you can already see how many updates have been made to this pack due to backroute fixes even long after its release.

Responses to Gronkling (Heavy rank)

01: Semi-backroute. I used to accept things like this as alternative solutions, but I'm really starting to feel I need to be more strict about my intended solutions.
02: Intended. Indeed, this is the Jumper introduction level. I believe you're indeed one of the people who wasn't active during the time of its introduction? Because I'd figure unless somebody was here as the mechanics were being discussed, they wouldn't necessarily know about things such as wall-jumping (on and off walls) and that Jumpers can transition into Shimmiers. Even though it should be clear that no completely new player should play LOA, a scenario I consider more likely is a player who is experienced with the classic 8 skills. Such people still need levels to familiarise themselves with all the mechanics of the new skills. Granted, such players would most likely get completely overwhelmed by Soft 02, specifically. But once they've overcome that initial hurdle, Heavy 02 pretty much features all the basic Jumper knowledge crammed into one level. And apparently, it succeeds at enforcing what it set out to do!
03: Well, you saved both - the skills and the extra lemming. Indeed, by reversing Digger and Miner usage compared to the intended solution, it's possible to save everyone. Maybe I should make that a bronze talisman. It's not that hard to find this superior solution, but it should entail some kind of reward.
04: What a nice alternative solution! In the intended one, it's not actually necessary to platform over the water pit.
05: Yes, this is a little breather, but you still had to use all the skills to cover this comparatively large landscape. So I hope that means it's not a complete pushover.
06: That was very skill-efficient, but a lot of the central tricks were still there, including the "jump off the pillar over to the exit chamber and immediately transition into a Shimmier". I love that stuff!
07: Well done, you saved the pickup skill because you've found an even better method of containing the crowd than I did! Never knew you could use a 1-frame Basher to create an increase that only a Climber could overcome. The right-hand side of the level (reverse Miner to enable climbing etc.) was done exactly as intended.
08: Semi-backroute. The part with the Climbers, the Bomber, and the Glider on the left was intended. Then however you mined where you were supposed to use a Fencer to prevent the neutrals from walking out. That cost you an extra Builder to seal up the gap. Also, you had to keep an eye on the Climber to prevent him from going up to the ceiling and dying. In theory, this should have cost you more skills, yet you still came out using fewer skills than in the intended solution, including no Shimmiers at all. I would like to keep allowing this, but I don't think I should.
09: Huge backroute, just bombing straight through the one-way arrows. Easy enough fix though, with just a single further block of steel. I can't extend the one-way arrows all the way down to the bottom, as you will hopefully see on your next attempt...
10: Backroute. Technically, it should be equally valid to go along the left side as it is to go along the right side, but that misses the main thing that makes this level somewhat interesting. So now Sandman has to wear a steel shackle on his one foot.
11: That's a nice alternative solution, saved you one Platformer - that's not the one you need to save for the talisman, though .
12: Backroute. This used to be another unfixable level during testing - and of course, you were among those who found the backroute. But I think now I've finally found a way to fix it! Can't believe I've been overlooking it for all this time !
13: Well, pretty much your only task on this level is to find some way to deal with the zombies, even if you didn't make them "hit the floor" .
14: Mmh, okay, apparently it's still possible to solve this entire level without using the right side. It's not too far off from the intended solution per se, though, and unless I resort to excessive pickup-skill placement, I don't really see a way of changing this. For the time being, I just assume the level has enough "entropy" that other people will indeed try to use the right side, or even feel they have to in order to complete the level at all. At least that would be my prediction based on what I've seen during the testing phase.
15: Semi-backroute. I can't stop the Digger shenanigans you did at the start, since Diggers will always be able to go through horizontal one-way arrows. But I can cut off the Miner shortcut at the end, even though it required me to try several different ways to do so without breaking my own solution.
16: Almost intended. That obscure trick of the Builder-Digger-Builder turnaround isn't actually required here. But I always appreciate it very much when I see it! One of my testers even showed me yet another alternative solution where a Climber actually climbs through one of those horizontal bars on the bottom right .
17: Wonderfully obscure, even more so than the intended solution!
18: Well, that's a creative way of freeing a Blocker if I've ever seen one. I'm not sure I can prevent this, not even sure if I want to.
19: Close enough to intended, hit all the "important notes" .
20: Also close enough. I liked how you trapped one Climber by stoning the other on the wall! I knew that was possible, since it happened to me a couple of times by accident, while I was testing levels I had made for Lemmings: Hall of Fame. But I never actually used it for an intended solution.
21: Yes! Got the main trick of making the Basher go through! At the same time, this Basher was very self-reliant, by turning around on the Stoner and then digging while already facing to the left. The intended solution is more precise, because the Basher has to somewhat rely on the timing of the other worker lemmings. Glad to see the main trick can be enforced here without all the other parts necessarily having to be that precise!
22: Close to intended. Bouncing the Miner off the Blocker, cancelling the Miner who frees the crowd by having him drop into the gaps of the "gate", that's all there. You used some pretty whacky techniques to get the Glider up in the updrafts! The intended solution also involves (yet again) a Miner going over a Builder staircase (the one that frees the crowd). But you still only saved 1 skill with your slightly different solution, so that's completely fine.
23: This is the simplified intended version. The complete intended version is very precise, so I decided not to enforce it strictly, if it even would have been possible. That's why you can have comparatively many skills remaining on this particular one.

24: Nice alternative solution, only saving the Swimmer. For the intended solution, it's actually the Shimmier that isn't strictly necessary - yet for your solution, it was, because if you had platformed across the long gap from the left, either the lemming would have turned around and gone to the exit too early, or you couldn't even have closed the gap because you also used a Builder when constructing the bridge from the right eventually (and that Builder would have been up in the air instead of properly connecting with the terrain, so the crowd from the right couldn't have walked onto the bridge if you had built from the left). Therefore you needed the Shimmier to get the lemming over to the stash of money first. Good thing I left the Shimmier in there - you're welcome! I'm thankful for any alternative solution I see on this one, too, though - because once again, the intended one is very precise. So anytime somebody finds a satisfying alternative that I can comfortably allow to co-exist with the intended solution, I can rest with a clear conscience!

25: Close to intended. This is another level where the Climber was supposed to be a red herring that actively backfires in your face when you use it. In this case, you prevented this by digging into the ground halfway under the stack. That by itself could be prevented by simply raising the steel so that you can't dig. However, thanks to ericderkovits's solution to Loud 05, I now know it would still be possible to turn around the Cilmber in several ways at this point, both involving the Shimmier:

- at a certain point while climbing the stack, you can make the Climber turn around and actually shimmy along thin air, even though there's no ceiling (maybe this is a bug? )
- even if that behaviour did not exist, though: in this particular case, because the Climber is also a Glider, you could still have him jump up right in front of the stack as a mere Reacher, upon which he would Glider-bump against the stack and turn around as well

Therefore, in short, there is no need to make any changes to the terrain here because it still wouldn't result in the Climber being an actual red-herring skill. And simply cutting the Climber altogether... not, the alternative solutions I've seen featuring it, including yours, were way too awesome for that!

26: Okay, apparently you have enough Builders that you can just stall the lemmings upstairs and let the pioneer die down below, instead of having to get him back up again... so he doesn't actually go "to Hell and back". What a pity! But such are the options when the save requirement is a little more lenient, and the level designer tries to enforce saving a single particular lemming... it almost never works.
27: Open-ended. But wow, you actually managed to spare 1 Builder on this one. What's most limited on this level are of course the destructive skills, and that poses the main challenge.
28: Open-ended as well. It doesn't really matter if you lose lemmings as Bombers, as Blockers remaining at the end of the level, or as lemmings that fall into the abyss or go into a trap. You simply have a fixed amount you can lose, and need to guide the rest to the exit across the three David stars in the most efficient way possible with what limited skills you have at your disposal.
29: Close enough to intended. You contained the crowd between Stackers so that you could free them with a Basher, instead of platforming over the stack at the end, as it is intended. But the main part here is disarming all the flower traps, setting up the anti-splat pad, and platforming across the water, obviously, which was all done as intended.
30: Nice alternative solution! This is the first time I see anyone leading the right crowd all the way over to the left side.

Response to ericderkovits (Soft 17)

This seems much closer to intended now. I still can't really seem to enforce the parts on the bottom layer of the level, but I guess that's fine.

Sorry your solutions seem to be among those that I apparently have to break the most often right now. But rest assured that David also discovered some pretty nasty backroutes, some of which even my testers would never have come up with. So a lot of his replays (considering there haven't actually been that many by him yet, just in comparison ;D ) have already ended up on my chopping block as well.

[kaywhyn]

Well, I could have told you that long ago, since I was one of the testers for United... IchoTolot sent us so many updates during the test phase that at some point I lost track of what the current version was (aside from the fact that I wasn't able to solve pretty much anything beyond the first rank anyway ). And even still, if you look at the Lemmings United thread right now, it has 22 pages and is currently at version 12.9 (after starting at version 1.0). So you can already see how many updates have been made to this pack due to backroute fixes even long after its release.

Yes, but this is expected since the aim was to make the levels as backroute proof as possible, especially in regards to the prize for completely solving all of United with intended/acceptable solutions. Also, the difference between the amount of levels of United from LOA is more than 100, so the many updates for United were definitely to be expected! And yes, I'm quite surprised that even josh was still able to backroute some levels even after all my solutions were accepted by Icho. Therefore, I think I shouldn't be surprised anymore if more still manage to come up from other players who are currently playing through United. However, the number of updates needed after I completely solved the pack wasn't as much as when I played through the pack. For example, only a few updates were needed for the War rank for a few levels, and similarly for Genocide.

Here, though, I think it's more to do with the various skill levels of the players. Less experienced players will likely backroute levels in different ways than the experts, who generally will be able to catch them more easily. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I still stand by my statement that I don't think I have seen so much replays/feedback come in for a pack in the first few days since a pack's release. I think from what I've seen the first set of replays/feedback for a pack generally doesn't come in until at least a week or so has passed since release. Guess I'll have to look back at the level pack topics and see if that has indeed been the case. At least this has always been the impression that I've gathered regarding packs getting replays/feedback.

[David]

I finished Soft rank !   Very good levels, well imagined ! I admire the work, really. I enjoy myself ! I really liked Soft 19, Soft 20, Soft 21, and especially Soft 25, but the others didn't "displease" me !

Levels Soft 16, Soft 18 and Soft 26 seemed rather easy to me, while levels Soft 15 and Soft 28 were very difficult to solve.

So I redid Soft 11 with the expected solution (well... I think).

For Soft 19, I recorded the replay before the last update, but I think it doesn't affect the solution I found.

For Hardcore rank, I understand, but we'll talk about that later... I doubt I will get that far, because Soft rank is still quite difficult for me !

Thank you ! Bye !

[Strato Incendus]

Responses to David (Soft 11 + 15 - 30)

11: This is the same alternative solution that namida found, as far as I recall: You removed the Stoner again so that the crowd could walk up to the water, but then the Stacker prevented them from drowning. In the intended solution, the Basher goes down the Fencer tunnel to widen it, with the Stoner further back, so that the Basher doesn't remove it as well. Then, the Basher (or one of the lemmings from the crowd) stacks under the Stoner in such a way that the Basher can get back over the Stoner without the crowd being able to get over it from the other side (just like on Soft 02). Now, because the Fencer tunnel has been widened by the Basher, the Disarmer can continue to shimmy after he has crossed the water, going over both the Stoner and the Blocker and to the pillar on the left. This is where he needs the Floater to survive the splat height. Since you didn't have the Disarmer shimmy that far, you spared the Floater.
15: Valid alternative solution. I think this is the first time I ever see anybody use a Shimmier to stop a Platformer early.
16: Intended.
17: Very close to intended.
18: One of the expected alternative solutions now.
19: Intended.
20: Intended.
21: Intended.
22: The more efficient intended solution, didn't need the Climber and Basher.
23: Pseudo-backroute. Well played - I can't make the fire area even higher, lest it would burn the feet of the lemmings who are supposed to shimmy along that ceiling.
24: Valid alternative solution. This is a way of crowd control (with the first step of a Builder staircase making an 8-pixel altitude 1 pixel too high for other lemmings to step up behind the Builder) that I've actually seen some people use on the previous level (Soft 23) at one point. I also already tried to enforce it on the level "Out of L.A." in Lemmings World Tour, but that level is way too large to enforce anything specific, because the size comes with too many degrees of freedom to do so.
25: Intended. You only placed the stacks to pen in the crowd in slightly different places than I did.
26: This is the first time I see somebody take the entire crowd along the path on the right. That requires only one Shimmier, though, so I don't think I should allow that.
27: Intended.
28: Intended.
29: One of the expected alternative solutions now.
30: Valid alternative solution. Why did you make that one lemming a Swimmer though if you just allowed him to swim off the map to the left and die right afterwards? You simply could have let him drown as well. You pretty much only used him to pick up the pickup skills, which he had already done at this point.

[Gronkling]

OK I finished all of hardcore except the last level (reason in spoiler). Very nice pack overall, I'd say it's difficulty is a 7/10, though that's with backroutes! Had a lot of fun playing it, I'll come back to the levels that got fixed soon.

Spoiler

• Nice "Steel-works" feeling start to the rank
• Saved 1 skill, 5 extra lemmings. Tricky!
• Saved 3 skills, 1 extra lemming
• Saved 6 skills, here's probably the silliest backroute ever
• Saved 2 skills, not a fan of this sort of button hunt level but the decor was really cool
• Saved 1 extra lemming. Nice trick but very easy for last rank
• Saved 1 skill, 1 extra lemming, and didn't really use the cloners, but it was fun
• Saved 8 skills, 1 extra lemming
• I liked this one
• Saved 3 skills, 8 extra lemmings
• Saved 4 skills
• Feels backroutey, nice decoration
• Saved 4 skills, 1 extra lemming
• Nice one!
• Saved 1 skill
• Saved 8 skills, 3 extra lemmings
• Saved 3 skills, 1 extra lemming
• Good!
• Saved 3 skills
• Saved 8 skills, 1 extra lemming. If the bit on the left is intended, I really like it
• Saved 1 skill
• Saved 2 skills, but it feels right
• Saved 10 skills, 3 extra lemmings, another horrid backroute
• Saved 2 skills
• Saved 1 skill, 1 extra lemming
• Saved 3 skills, 1 extra lemming. I liked this one, maybe the hardest in the pack.
• Saved 1 skill, 1 extra lemming
• Saved 9 skills
• One of the best in the pack!
• I had my fingers cross whilst finishing level 29. "Please don't follow the trend of having a mega-level at the end of a pack". I tried it a few times, finding I didn't have some skills after 10 minutes of fiddling, and having 0 motivation to try again. I guess most people like them since they always seem to appear nowadays, but they are just 100% not for me in the slightest. Maybe some day I'll come back to it, sorry!

[kaywhyn]

Congrats on finishing 99.2 percent (119/120) of the pack, Gronkling!

I must be a dummy, because it sounds like both you and Armani didn't find Hardcore 24 that hard. That's the only level I haven't been able to solve, at least the latest version of it. Both Armani and I have already backrouted it so many times in the past. So far, the best I have managed on the level is lose 1, which doesn't help since you need to save everyone, and that was when I finally came back to the level last night for the first time since Thanksgiving here in the U.S. I wonder if it might just be a shimmier trick I haven't seen that's preventing me from solving the level. Or, more likely, just not going about the level correctly. Will of course keep trying.

As for Hardcore 30, I can assure you it's not as hard as you're making it sound. Yes, certain skills running out quick will be a problem, but it's all about finding ways to conserve skills wherever possible. IIRC, I still had a handful of skills leftover. Well, since you're not a fan of huge levels, I know who won't be doing the final level of LWT then In short, standard height level but an extremely wide level. Might be the max width actually. Not sure. There's probably only 2 skills that can potentially be problematic due to running out quickly, obviously the builder is one of them, but otherwise I ended up having a lot of skills left. 

[Gronkling]

HC24 was pretty tricky! One of the harder ones. I guess I'll try on HC30 every now and then if its not too bad, just not something I want to try a lot at a time.

[Strato Incendus]

Congrats on finishing 99.2 percent (119/120) of the pack, Gronkling!

Indeed, from me as well! But as Darken Rahl said: "Do you believe the Keeper is interested in almost winning?"

I'm the first person to trash huge X-of-everything levels. That's precisely why I don't create them very often. Pit Lems still had the most of these in comparison, but they weren't very restrictive. My newer ones, the few that I make, are. So I felt more justified in having such a level at the end than it might be in other packs, if they already pack a lot of these huge X-of-everything levels at the very beginning of a pack, as well.

Well, since you're not a fan of huge levels, I know who won't be doing the final level of LWT then In short, standard height level but an extremely wide level. Might be the max width actually.

"The Grand Puzzle" is 4000 pixels wide. New-Formats has a width limit of 2400 pixels, so you couldn't even re-create that level in New Formats. Only the player can still handle it.
The Old-Formats editor didn't have a max width, as far as I remember. At least not officially. Of course, there was probably a limit at which the player would simply start breaking down.

Responses to Gronkling (Hardcore 01 - 29)

01: Almost intended. You only swapped the Blocker's and the Miner's position. And indeed, I tried to keep the tileset choices in line with the tilesets chosen on the same level number in original Lemmings, at least as much as possible. For example, I knew the last one had to be a Fire level instead of Dirt.
02: Almost intended. The crowd on the very right is supposed to be freed with a Miner from the top instead of bombing themselves out... but it didn't really make a difference, you still needed almost all the skills.
03: This is one of the unfixable ones... meaning, the intended solution is more complex than most backroutes people came up with.
04: Really? There was a 1-pixel-high gap in the one-way arrow trigger areas? Well, thanks for exploiting it in order to show me, but I'm sure you know this is not going to remain this way ... In fact, the editor had set the heights of all the OW trigger areas to 31 pixels (instead of the standard 32). I can't recall setting it that way... sometimes the editor seems to do this. I remember that at one point, I also repeatedly had issues with the skill counts of pickup skills being reset to 1 per object by the editor. That seems to have been fixed by now, I just mention it as another example where the editor sometimes does stuff you never actually told it to do.
05: Very close to intended, just some minor differences in the details.
06: Intended.
07: Semi-backroute. You bought yourself a lot of time by having the left crowd go so far over to the left before doing the double-Bomber turnaround. I'm not sure what to do about this one yet.
08: Close enough to intended. You did use one of the main tricks, namely, the Digger paying double duty to both get down and turn around the middle crowd coming down from the top. Except it didn't actually matter in your case, because you had sealed up the water gap tightly that this "turning around" should normally prevent the lemmings from the middle crowd from going into.
09: Intended.
10: Valid alternative solution.
11: Semi-backroute, close to intended. I think I've seen it before from one of my testers that somebody used the Fencer to slightly fence into the wall next to the right crowd, just to stall some lemmings. A lot of the other stuff you did was fine and as intended, but this mere stalling usage seems to be one of the things that allow people to completely ignore the bottom half of the level. So I slightly extended the steel to the left. You can of course still fence straight into the steel, but the lemming shouldn't keep going as long anymore as he used to.
12: Valid alternative solution, and potentially actually much more interesting than the intended one!
13: An acceptable alternative solution, although you saved a couple too many skills for my liking.
14: Very close to intended. This is the first time I see somebody bomb that vertical thin stripe before building - you can of course also build slightly through the stripe, as you did indeed on some of the later levels. This is a trick for which I realised a little late in development that I still wanted to use it, and as a result, I probably used it a little too much on the Hardcore rank. That's because enforcing it didn't really work in Lemmings World Tour, so I've been wanting to do so ever since I first discovered it by accident while playing "Ancient Temple of Lemming" from Lemmings Migration (a level that doesn't actually require this trick, but you can certainly use it there).
15: Very close to intended. I just used a temporary Blocker to turn around a lemming while the Basher was going through those triangles (which leads to the Basher automatically freeing that Blocker again eventually).
16: Semi-backroute. This one could be fine I guess, but I feel better with covering the entire deck between the two sails with steel as a result of this. And to my testers, yes, I probably should have done so earlier...
17: Acceptable alternative solution. Give people a solution involving a few Bombers/Stoners, and they will go ahead to exploit that more lenient save requirement to let innocent little worker lemmings die, just because they got trapped in the wrong place.
18: Intended. This is one I'm quite proud of, with my confidence being based on the testing replays looking the same. Lots of cool tricks involved, and apparently they're all being enforced.
19: Close enough to intended. These are the times I wish I had a type of one-way arrow that would allow Bashers to pass but not Miners looking in the same direction. Horizontal one-way arrows are just way too forgiving sometimes!
20: Much closer to the intended solution than the other hilariously obscure solutions I've seen so far! Especially that "bombing through the steel from the other side" part. You were just a little more skill-efficient than I was.
21: Almost intended. You used the Bomber at the beginning, I used it to stop the Fencer at the end.
22: Almost intended. You were just slightly more efficient in handling that trap on the right.
23: Arrgh, them Bomber backroutes again. And the Stoners do their part as well, of course. Getting used to seeing stuff like this coming before it happens is why we need the Grenader with its even larger craters... but then again, that doesn't mean I can stop this. Unless a wall is actually meant to be completely impenetrable (in which case I could use steel), there is simply no type of one-way arrow or other obstacle that could prevent Bombers from going through. One-way fields don't work either, since in most cases where you apply one-way arrows, you want the crowd to walk through the tunnel afterwards from the opposing side.
24: Valid alternative solution. I didn't expect there would still be one. But how you freed the Blocker who was just barely standing on the first step of that staircase, immediately canceling the Basher with a Shimmier afterwards, to prevent him from bashing through the staircase - that was awesome! In fact, I was similarly confused here as on Hardcore 04, where you passed through between the one-way arrows. Because here it looked as if the Basher was bashing straight through the trigger areas of the Blocker, meaning you'd think he should have turned around. It was only on the very last frame that the Basher's clubs hit the terrain underneath the Blocker's feet; the Basher himself was standing in front of the trigger area the entire time.
I don't want to incentivise people to actively look for this solution. Therefore, I won't make it a talisman to solve this with just 2 Climbers. But it would certainly be worthy of one!
25: Almost intended. You just saved one Basher, like one of my testers, simply because you chose not to go through the pillar on the right. I always took the lemming there to prevent the big drop, instead of just jumping straight towards the updraft. But that part of the solution was developed before the updraft was actually there. So probably I could remove that one Basher now, but I don't really see any harm in keeping it.
26: Close to intended. You used a Basher instead of a Miner at the start to make the dirt pillar climber-friendly. Also, you sent some Shimmiers along the bottom, one along the top side of that plank. Much like on Soft 28, both is possible! For the little "circle" you need to create in order to get the lemmings over the self-created tunnels again, you're the first one I see using two Miners for that, instead of one Miner and a Basher.
27: Semi-backroute. That way of crowd control seemed a little too easy for me, even though you still ended up using almost all the skills. So while it looks like an acceptable alternative solution, it seems to me like most of the skill placements were quite obvious, once the crowd had been contained. Of course, it's always hard to tell from a replay file alone how long it took the player to actually figure out that solution. But in this case, I'm comparatively certain this was too easy, especially for the end of the last rank.
28: Huge backroute. You're not the first to exploit the gaps I left between the steel pieces on this level, but you are indeed the first to use this particular vulnerable spot. Apparently nobody else wanted to bother with the hassle of going through a ceiling with Builders, because it always results in a lot of head-bumping. Anyways, now the entire ceiling is steel.
29: Intended.  Another one that seems to be fairly reliant at enforcing its solution! I'm glad I made it the second-to-last level in the pack. Even though that was mainly driven by tileset choice (being in the position of "Save me" in original Lemmings).

[Strato Incendus]

And with that, the next update is here!

Changelog

Soft 26: added steel

Hardcore 04: fixed the one-way arrows
Hardcore 11: added steel
Hardcore 16: added steel
Hardcore 27: added steel
Hardcore 28: added steel, also took the opportunity to add one-way arrows at one more spot

I assume a lot of people are still playing the very first version "silently" , given that the very first version was downloaded an astounding 48 times, but each of the updates only 2 times.

Still feel free to post your replays here, but don't be surprised if I tell you some of them no longer work in my version .

The better option would of course be to simply update your version of the pack again every once in a while and check with a mass replay check whether your solutions still work.

I completely understand that it's hard to keep up with every single update, but whenever you take another shot at it and haven't played in a while, it's always easy to simply download the latest version again.

[namida]

For example, David was the very first person to backroute Soft 11, nobody else had even considered doing that.

I'm not sure of the details of the exact case as I haven't been reading spoilers (or indeed, really, other people's comments in general) except where they directly relate to my comments, but - there's plenty of cases where the experienced players miss backroutes that the newer players find. This is a specific reason why I will usually include some of the less-skilled players as testers on my packs - they might indeed try stuff that experienced players dismiss as "too simple for this level" / etc.

[ericderkovits]

Ok, here are my Loud 11-20 replays. These 10 were harder than the 1st 10. but level 15 was the hardest of these.

and I got the Talismans too for 11,14 and 20

[Strato Incendus]

And yet again another small update! I took this as an opportunity to finally try and fix "Bonfire" (Loud 20). Hopefully it works this time!

Changelog

Loud 16: Miners are a pickup skill now
Loud 20: Fencer made a pickup skill, Basher pickup skill added, terrain and fire areas at the beginning extended, hatch moved back accordingly. This is a comparatively major change, so I even had to adapt my replay of the intended solution. The Talisman has been removed, since it should no longer be possible to attain it now (but feel free to prove me wrong if you can solve this without using any Bombers).

Responses to ericderkovits (Loud 11-20)

11: slightly more efficient alternative solution
12: Close to intended. You had the Climber bash against the steel to turn around himself, instead of turning around in a regular Walker's Basher tunnel. I would like to enforce this minor difference, but I'm pretty sure I can't .
13: Close to intended. The way you isolated the pioneer at the beginning was a little different, and you built over the trap at the end instead of digging under it.
14: This seems to be the new talisman solution, well done!
15: YES! Intended at last! Or at least the gist of it. You saved a few skills, but all the general ideas are there!
16: The left side was done as intended, but you completely skipped the right side. Now the Miner is a pickup skill on the right to force the player to go there as well.
17: Close to intended.
18: Valid alternative solution, used all the skills. How you contain the crowd (if at all) is really up to you here.
19: Intended. Nice way of spreading out the crowd a little to make the timing of the double Miner assignment at the end a little easier! Now I have a clearer conscience about this level.
20: You used the same backroute as many others; the reason I make another attempt at fixing it now is simply because the current option hadn't occurred to me until now. Hopefully the fixes are enough this time!
For this reason, the talisman has been removed, since I don't think it's possible to attain anymore. Feel free to prove me wrong! Sorry to those who had achieved it so far, but making the backroute a Talisman was really just the second-best option I had as long as I couldn't fix it. Maybe a talisman will re-appear if people find a way to backroute this one yet again (which wouldn't surprise me). However, I don't consider it likely anymore that a solution without any Bombers is possible.

This is a specific reason why I will usually include some of the less-skilled players as testers on my packs - they might indeed try stuff that experienced players dismiss as "too simple for this level" / etc.

I did that as well - I had two people I would consider expert solvers, one intermediate, and one casual player during early "open testing". However, if the less experienced players never make it to the hardest levels because the previous ones are already too hard for them, they won't get to reveal those "easy backroutes" on the harder levels, even if they are glaringly obvious - because they never get to play them in the first place before they see themselves forced to give up . Simply because the average difficulty is already too high for them at that point.

And also, it's not very fun for any tester to attempt a bunch of levels which they know will be too hard for them in general, only to randomly solve one every once in a while by backrouting it, upon which they immediately know that their solution most likely won't count because it's going to be fixed.

[Gronkling]

I tried again today and finished HC30

[kaywhyn]

Told you so. Granted, it's far from being the most difficult of the pack, but at the same time it's not trivial either. Anyway, congrats on solving 100% of the pack!

[ericderkovits]

ok here are my 2 new resolved loud level replays

Level 16 using both sides of level
Level 20 I couldn't do without bombers and I didn't come close to saving 39, only 35(2 over requirement)

Also I included Loud 5 Not using the climber, since a climber shouldn't be turning around on a stack when using a shimmier.


Just as a Note: Today is my birthday

[Strato Incendus]

Congratulations to Gronkling for beating the pack! - And congratulations to ericderkovits to his birthday  

@Gronkling: Hardcore 30 is an open-ended level, so your solution was more than fine!

Responses to ericderkovits (Loud 05, 16, 20)

05: Intended now. I guess now you understand why it's called "When I come around" - because when the lemming does come around, and he is a Climber... he dies. When he comes around and he isn't one, he turns around on the stack like everyone else. So "When I come around" is the crucial moment.
16: Intended now too! The only reason you had two skills remaining is because I didn't factor in during initial level design that every player would simply stack under one of the triangles from the ceiling; I provided extra skills so that you could have the Climber shimmy back across the water once more, and then back to the exit, assuming he would always go over the stack.
20: Unsurprisingly, my fix still couldn't enforce the intended solution. But at least you were now forced to use a majority of the skills (including Bombers). So I guess that's the best I could hope for!

One more thing:
I'm really curious to see whether Colorful Arty can beat this - because he was able to beat SEB Lems. Which is also ranked Medium - Hard, yet at this point I would still consider it harder than LOA.

I for one am currently still struggling with SEB Lems, and I do need occasional hints here and there to even have a chance at the Murder rank.

Between Flopsy and me, it seems like both of us are better at creating hard levels than solving them, because neither of us has solved the other's main pack(s) yet.

[kaywhyn]

I for one am currently still struggling with SEB Lems, and I do need occasional hints here and there to even have a chance at the Murder rank.

Between Flopsy and me, it seems like both of us are better at creating hard levels than solving them, because neither of us has solved the other's main pack(s) yet.

Now you really got me curious as to how much I'll be struggling with SEB Lems. Too bad it's going to be quite a while before I even get around to playing it due to the planned LPs I still need to do. One of them is almost done. Heck, I'll be amazed if anyone manages to beat all of United without hints. I almost did, but I think it was more to me giving up on a few levels quicker than usual. I think the only person who might had is josh, but since all correspondences was via PM, only Icho can say with certainty.

Then again, I'm not sure if I ever mentioned it, but save for a few levels in each rank, with LOA I felt no extreme real challenge with the pack. Even I thought the Hardcore rank wasn't all that very hard, except for Hardcore 11 that you showcased for the rank in the OP That was probably the hardest level for me in the entire pack. I still have the newest version of Hardcore 24 unsolved, but the solution will probably come to me eventually. The best I've managed so far is save all but 1, which doesn't help since you need to save everyone on that level. It's likely I'm simply missing something obvious or some trick I might not had seen before.

[Strato Incendus]

Even I thought the Hardcore rank wasn't all that very hard, except for Hardcore 11 that you showcased for the rank in the OP

"Symphony of destruction" is now Hardcore 20; it only used to be Hardcore 11 when you first tested it, but as you might remember, it has swapped positions with "Charred remains" .

[kaywhyn]

"Symphony of destruction" is now Hardcore 20; it only used to be Hardcore 11 when you first tested it, but as you might remember, it has swapped positions with "Charred remains" .

I definitely remember reading the level swapped positions. Guess I kind of have forgotten and didn't fully think about the possibility that it did indeed switch positions with another level before posting Especially since it happened several versions ago during pre-testing There haven't been that many levels changing positions anyway.

[ericderkovits]

ok, I finished the Loud rank. Here are my replays for Loud 21-30. In this rank I think level 2 and 15 were the most difficult for me. Still these last 10 levels were pretty tricky though.

And I did get the Talisman for level 22. So the only Talisman I still don't have in This rank is level 1

[Strato Incendus]

...and here's the next update, since two more fixes were in order as a result of your replays !

Changelog

Loud 21: added yet even more steel. People really seem to hate Stoner staircases, so I want to avoid any suspicions that such a thing were required to solve this level. And I can only do that by blocking any possibility to create one as rigourously as I can .
Loud 29: added slightly more steel.

Responses to ericderkovits (Loud 21 - 30)

21: could have been an alternative solution, but Stoner staircases are absolutely not the thing required here. I've added a really ugly long vertical steel wall to hopefully limit the space too much for a Stoner staircase to work. Also, I continued it all the way up to the ceiling, just to be on the safe side. Since you only have 5 Climbers on this level, I don't see a way this steel wall could be exploitet for backroutes by itself.
22: Intended (talisman).
23: This is the same alternative solution somebody else (I believe Gronkling?) has already found, so this is fine.
24: Small variation on the intended solution (again, similar to Gronkling's): You bashed to connect the two crowds at the very bottom, instead of bashing right behind the Builder to cut off his staircase behind them (Pieuw's signature trick), which would have been the intended solution.
25: Intended. The Climber is optional.
26: Close to intended. You could have spared that Blocker if you had made use of the splitter to turn the Miner around instead. However, in order to get to the splitter from the left to flip it once, you would have had to expend a Bomber, so it still would have resulted in a lemming loss.
27: Open-ended, fine solution.
28: Open-ended, fine alternative solution; the way you got over the exit with a Stacker and a double Miner was a little different from my approach: I just mined away the exit trigger first with a single Miner, then later on re-connected with it using a Platformer.
29: This is the first backroute that uses every skill. Specifically, the backrouty part is the Digger on the left, that was close enough to the edge of the water that a Glider could simply get over there. I maybe could have allowed this as an alternative solution earlier, but I've already gone so far out of my way to enforce the intended solution (among others, by making the Shimmier a pickup skill, too) that I might just as well go all the way. Very sorry to have to break this solution! But the intended one is truly one of a kind, so as long as I do see clear ways of enforcing it, I simply have to take it. In this case, that meant adding a little more steel so that now, the earliest place you can dig is still too far away from the edge of the pool to safely glide over it.
30: Yeah, this one pretty much has to remain open-ended, because the only way to enforce the intended solution without completely ruining the levels appearance through a bunch of rectangular steel blocks would be if we still had manual steel... One-way arrows wouldn't cut it here, because basically all alternative paths I've seen anybody take on this level invole Bomber shortcuts.

[ericderkovits]

ok, I resolved levels loud 21 and 29.

These 2 levels were hard. But loud 21 was very hard to execute.

Yeah your right Loud 29 is a special one. I loved this solution.

[David]

Thank you for these comments/feedbacks Strato Incendus. So, I remade Soft 11 and Soft 26 (see replays).
And I got to Loud 20, but I'm missing a talisman (Loud 1). I'm totally stuck at Loud 21.

For Loud 15, I imagine there is an easier solution... as I found this level particularly hard !

Otherwise, I really liked all of the levels but... Loud 5's solution is a bit "wacky", anyway !

[Strato Incendus]

Responses to David

Soft 11: Intended.
Soft 26: Close enough to intended.

Loud 01: Intended.
Loud 02: Almost intended. (I bashed while standing on top of the previous "prison bar" on the left, i.e. bashing across the tiny gap in between, but you can also have the Climber climb up into the dent the Bomber makes into the final pole as well)
Loud 03: Almost intended. (I used the Basher at the top to stop the Climber from going over the rectangular block on the right; you used it on the bottom to free the "crowd", which is in this case just a couple.
Loud 04: Intended. The pickup skills kind of give it away, but everything else allows to use the Blocker and Digger in much simpler ways.
Loud 05: Intended. The Climber and the Bomber are red-herring skills.
Loud 06: Intended.
Loud 07: Valid alternative solution; the intended one is hard to enforce.
Loud 08: Close enough to intended.
Loud 09: Wow, you still found a way to shortcut to the bottom by bashing through your own Builder staircase. I used to allow these types of solutions as alternatives, but decided a while ago that I would regret it later on it I keep doing that. Most of the backroutes could be broken by the steel, but in your case, I'll have to move the flame thrower over even further to the right.
Loud 10: Yay, you're the first one who got the intended trick from PimoLems! Swap the Miner and the Basher and you basically have the intended solution. I'll have to enforce that, though, so your replay will probably break...
Loud 11: both solutions are fine
Loud 12: Intended.
Loud 13: Almost intended. Just the way you turned around the pioneer at the beginning was a little different.
Loud 14: Talisman as intended, the regular solution is a slightly alternative one.
Loud 15: A very awesome alternative solution that still uses all of the main tricks! And yes, many easier solutions (i.e. backroutes) existed for this one - I've just broken them all successfully , it seems.
Loud 16: Close to intended. The additional Shimmier I provided to have the Climber shimmy back and forth again at the end after going over the stack, that is the Shimmier you used to have the pioneer on the right shimmy twice. In the intended solution, you have the pioneer lemming turn around on the Stoner first while he's still part of the crowd, and then he jumps into the teleporter via the Reacher animation once he's already looking to the left.
Loud 17: Alternative solution; you had the worker lemming continue looking to the right when he arrived on top of the crystal, instead of shimmying over to turn around and mine down first.
Loud 18: Almost intended, just saved two Shimmiers that you could have used to lead the Climbers to the exit earlier than the crowd.
Loud 19: Intended.
Loud 20: This is the first time I have to say "invalid solution". Since it relies on the already known Shimmier bug I reported recently. namida has already announced he will fix this, with unanimous support from the community, so expect your solution to break as a result of that, without me having to do anything.

[Strato Incendus]

The next update is here with three level fixes:

Changelog

Loud 09: moved the fire trap over a little bit to cover the entire gap, added steel on the left as a preventative measure against any possible new backroutes opening up there, as a result of me moving the fire trap over. I added a little more steel than necessary to keep the aesthetics more consistent.

Loud 10: added downward arrows

Hardcore 23: added steel and one-way arrows to fix the backroute found by Gronkling

[ericderkovits]

ok, here are my replays of the first 10 levels of Heavy.

Some of these were tricky but nothing super hard. Also got the Talisman for level 3

[Strato Incendus]

Responses to ericderkovits (Heavy 01-10)

01: Fine alternative solution.
02: Intended.
03: Slight twist on the intended talisman solution.
04: Very close to intended.
05: This one is open-ended, glad to see you had to use all the skills.
06: Nice alternative solution!
07: Same alternative solution that Gronkling found, with the Basher stopped at the very first frame to create a Climber-friendly niche for the Fencer to isolate him from the crowd.
08: Very close to intended, except that the Miner going through over the Builder staircase and tanking on the steel to turn around (so that he doesn't climb up and die) is identical with Gronkling's solution.
09: Very nice alternative solution that uses all the skills! First time that I see this one!
10: Another nice alternative solution, you basically just swapped the Fencer and the Basher compared to the intended one. Good to know that making everyone a Shimmier still works with this approach.

Also, a note to everyone:
You can use the style manager within the NeoLemmix player to update the Autumn tileset. I've added a secondary animation to the one-use leaf trap.

In particular, I just took namida's secondary animation from his Tree tileset, since the trap of that tileset is what the one-use leaf trap is based on, and recoloured it from green to orange to match the autumn colours. Thus, credit goes to namida for creating the original version!

I've sent the updated version to Nessy and he told me that going via the styles manager should work now, but in case it doesn't work for anyone of you, please don't hesitate to report that .

[ericderkovits]

ok here is the next 10 replays of heavy.

17, 19 and 20 were very difficult. Level 20 was extremely hard to get that 2nd stoner placed precisely with the swimmer climber basher. rest of level was easy. Took several trys.

level 17 was hard because of the bomber must be placed so lemmings not only go left but also don't go right(due to tiny slit in terrain near hatch)
level 19 was hard to get the 3 stackers and 1 stoner placed properly (right set of flamethrowers) so jumpers can land on them precisely. (I managed to get the Talisman for 19)

Got Talismans for 11, 18, and 19.

[Strato Incendus]

Great job, ericderkovits! I'm happy to hear those were some tough nuts to crack, even if you've found slightly more skill-efficient solutions on some of those levels so that the replays look easier than those solutions actually were to find out first, according to your description.

The only level I felt needed a tiny fix was Heavy 12, Burning the witches (the update has been uploaded already). This is the first time I actually removed some steel again from a level - because guess what, steel can also be exploited for certain things compared to if it wasn't there. However, the main backroute that was present here for ages is fortunately gone, so your solution was already infinitely better than anything that came before! I could have accepted it as a slightly easier alternative solution, but in this case, I saw an easy way to fix the level, so I went ahead and did it.

I must say I don't quite remember though what this steel that I have removed now was there for originally... maybe it was just another attempt to break that persistent backroute that I ended up breaking some other way eventually. But maybe, it also served a different purpose... I hope I haven't opened up another shortcut by removing it (and replacing it with the regular 7-pixel-wide brick blocks from the Fire tileset so that my own replay wouldn't be negatively affected ). If it does more harm than good, literally taking this level out of the frying pan and into the fire, then the steel might be re-added again and I would accept your current solution instead.

Complete overview of responses (Heavy 11-20)

11: Intended (talisman).
12: The left side is all as intended, just the way of turning the pioneer around should be a little more complex than just bashing into steel (something that no type of one-way arrows could prevent either). Hence the change of removing the steel entirely.
13: Thanks for being the first one to actually make the bodies hit the floor!
14: I guess I can accept this as an alternative solution - making the Shimmier go over the exit was a move I didn't see coming, I liked that! You also used more of the right level side than Gronkling did, so that's already an improvement. Unless I resort to pickup skills, I don't think I can enforce anyone incorporating the entire right side of the level.
15: This was very close to intended, you just dug at a slightly different position in that chunk of rock under the exit (I dug right under the exit). But I was happy to see both the crowd control and the beginning and the method of freeing the Blocker at the end enforced!
16: Very nice alternative solution, re-connecting the Fencer tunnel with the staircase you used to seal up the Digger shaft. The intended solution sends the pioneer down on the right side. I could prevent what you did with upward one-way arrows, because in the intended solution, the Fencer alone suffices. But I like cases where skills pay double duty (in this case the Builder, both sealing up the Digger shaft and connecting with the Fencer tunnel). So even though you saved a Floater and, more importantly, a Builder, I'm more than happy with this!
17: You're the first one to build such a long staircase to get the crowd up into the skull. Sounds like it was difficult enough, and it used almost all the skills, so this is fine by me!
18: I think this is the most efficient solution I've seen for this level so far. Talisman well-deserved!
19: Yes, pretty close to the solution by one of my testers that originally inspired this talisman.
20: This is the same "trap the Climber inside the Stoner to bash" alternative solution that Gronkling used. Not the intended one, but fine by me!

[ericderkovits]

ok, how about this for heavy 12. I used the platformer at start (instead of builder), so I can use the builder to turn around  pioneer

[Strato Incendus]

That's better...

Heavy 12

...since the Platformer at the start is indeed intended. However, I didn't really until now that you could just use the Builder (which I had to use to replace another Platformer so that people wouldn't just platform under the low ceiling instead of using the Shimmier) to turn around early.

However, I've gone so far to enforce the intended solution here that I might just as well go all the way. Bring out the pickup skills (as you know, that's the last resort)!

(I didn't make the Builder a pickup skill, though, only the Basher, but I'm pretty sure this should suffice).

The update has already been uploaded.

[ericderkovits]

ok, here is my new replay again for heavy 12, now that you added the basher pickups, since my 2nd replay broke.
Now I used all the skills.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks, that one is as intended at last!

[ericderkovits]

ok, here  are the final 10 levels of Heavy.
Alot of these 10 levels were very difficult.

[Strato Incendus]

Alot of these 10 levels were very difficult.

As they should be! I'm glad to hear that!

No backroutes this time!

Responses to your replays (Heavy 21 - 30)

21: That was a nice use of a Stoner staircase, placing it inside a Digger shaft. I have never seen that before. Thus, you can figure this part was not intended. Making the Basher go through, as well as stopping the Shimmiers with Stoners etc., that of course was all as intended. Interestingly, almost everyone seems to platform over to that half-ball on the left wall, instead of gliding onto it and digging it away to allow Climbers to get up. The latter has the downside of the Climbers splatting unless you make them Shimmiers. I think this is how people end up saving some skills: If they platform over, there is no splat height, so the Climbers can just fall back down again safely.
22: Very close to intended; making the Miner go through apparently is not required here (I think I've seen another solution already where that wasn't done either).
23: That was almost more complex than the intended solution, but in exchange, it was probably less precise than the intended solution (which uses the Blocker instead of multiple lemmings, as you did, to time the other destructive skills inside the Miner tunnel correctly). And in spirit, it's much closer to the intended one than most of the slightly easier solutions I've seen for this one.
24: Valid alternative solution.
25: Now THIS is another nice trick I had never thought of - using a Basher staircase to make a Stacker's stack walkable? I really need to start enforcing this on some levels now! Even though you used Shimmiers to do this in this particular example, it should also work with Jumpers, but most of all, also with Walkers. In other words, this is a trick I could have discovered a long time ago, even before these two new skills were introduced. I can't believe I never considered this!
26: Well, you did send the lemming to Hell and back, which is more than I can ask for based on the other solutions I've seen, so this is fine!
27: This is another one where countless solutions seem to exist, yet all of them are equally difficult. Making the Basher and Miner go through will usually be required, simply because the destructive skills are so limited - but slipping through the terrain of that same Miner tunnel from the other side, that must have been very precise , so that wasn't necessarily required.
28: This one is open-ended, anything that works and uses all or almost all skills is fine.
29: Nice job saving everyone here!
30: Close to intended. Somehow people always just seem to trap the right crowd between a Stacker and a Blocker, instead of using a Digger pit, as I did.

[ericderkovits]

ok, here are the 1st 10 levels of Hardcore replays.

The hardest of these 10 was level 2. The other ones not too difficult.

Got the Talisman for level 1(easy)

[kaywhyn]

Hardcore 2 is definitely much harder now than it was before. It has already gone through several versions. Armani and I backrouted the level very badly in the earlier versions, and so you're the unfortunate majority to be playing the current version where it's at the peak of its difficulty Strato was pretty much like "those damn bomber backroutes" 

The only other one in the batch you have solved I would say can be difficult for most is Hardcore 5. Probably about equal in difficulty to Hardcore 2, but definitely not as chaotic and so just a tad bit easier. It's still not easy at all.

Just looked ahead with the final 20 levels, and most of them are quite difficult as I recall. Here, I'm putting myself in the shoes of less experienced players, as when I gave feedback I told Strato that I didn't think the Hardcore rank was that hard at all for the final rank of the pack. I felt some of the levels in the earlier ranks were far harder than most of the Hardcore ones, but of course, I'm in a completely different league here

[ericderkovits]

I thought Hardcore 5 was much easier than hardcore 2. I kept having trouble keeping lemmings from splatting in Hardcore 2, Finally I was able to find a solution to handle that.
And like you said before. Some levels people may find hard (not you though since your a master), others may find not so hard. So I guess I just found it much easier.

Hey Strato, I finally got the Gold Talisman for Loud 1.

[kaywhyn]

In some ways Hardcore 5 is easier than Hardcore 2, but it's still not an easy level regardless. In particular, I say the hardest parts are figuring out how to get up and how to recover after getting the buttons on either side. In any case, there are far worse ones yet to come, if you manage to get that far. As you're quite far into the pack, you're doing well.

I thought you said you didn't care for the talismans Haha good job on finally getting the Loud 1 one, though.

[Strato Incendus]

First of all, congratulations on getting the talisman for Loud 01, eric! You actually did it a completely different way than Armani (who was the one who discovered the talisman in the first place). Glad to see there is more than just his fairly obscure method of obtaining it.

Regarding your Hardcore solutions so far, while most of them are not as intended, they use all or all but 1 skill, and are therefore all acceptable as alternative solutions to me! A lot of these are semi-open-ended anyway, and the shape of the terrain itself poses the main challenge (especially on the already mentioned Hardcore 02). Much like with "Wooden pints" on the Heavy rank, no matter which solution you find to navigate those landscapes, none of them are going to be easy.

Responses to your Hardcore replays (01-10)

01: completely different than intended.
02: in some ways similar to intended, in some ways not.
03: Here you're actually closer to the intended solution than anyone else has been so far! Bouncing the Miner off the Blockers repeatedly is indeed intended. Transitioning from a Digger to a Platformer in such a way that a gap remains for a Climber to climb up through however, that was not required. Good trick to know for other levels, though!
04: The main trick is there, which is holding the crowd back by fencing them out in the other direction than where the pioneer is going.
05: in some ways similar to intended, in some ways not.
06: very close to intended, although I believe you let more lemmings die to the chameleon specifically than I did. I was quite surprised hearing it slurp several times! :clam:
07: some nice Bomber shenanigans here, seemed more straightforward than my intended solution
08: very close to intended, although I used the Swimmer for the crowd in the middle, not for the pioneer from the left crowd; that lemming can also just dig down on the right side and then platform the water up from below. By making him a Swimmer, you only needed a single Builder for that, but then you needed to build over the exit to free the crowd on the right. In the intended solution, the Swimmer from the middle crowd crosses the long pool at the top and then digs down to get to the one-way wall that holds back the crowd on the right.
09: Intended.
10: Very close to intended. I think you're the first one who managed to save the Climber at the end, because you still had a Jumper remaining! Oftentimes he ends up splatting, even if people had a Shimmier remaining that they could easily have swapped with a Jumper they used elsewhere.

[ericderkovits]

ok, here's my next 10 hardcore level replays.
most of these were easy.
level 17 was a little difficult, and level 20 was super hard. spent alot of time on that one.

[Strato Incendus]

Great job, eric!

Responses to your replays (Hardcore 11 - 20)

11: Very close to intended, just saved one Fencer.
12: Valid alternative solution.
13: Close to intended, you didn't have to go over the water and back.
14: Intended.
15: Close to intended; this is the first time I see the entire level solved with just one worker lemming throughout. Usually, the left side gets done by several lemmings, and only on the right side of the exit is where a single lemming does all the work.
16: This is the only level I felt required a little more fixing, because your solution seemed so straightforward that I can hardly believe it was that challenging to figure out .
17: Valid alternative solution.
18: Intended.
19: Close to intended; going along the right side at the beginning can't really be enforced, because there's no way to make terrain Basher-friendly without also making it Miner-friendly.
20: Very close to intended (especially the "bomb from the other side of the steel" part), and uses all the skills.

As a result of these most recent 10 replays of yours, another small update has been uploaded that brings some additional steel as fixes to Hardcore 16.

[ericderkovits]

ok, how about this for hardcore 16. different solution at start. more difficult with added steel.

[Strato Incendus]

Yes, that's much better! Still not quite as intended, but much closer to it. And it definitely looks like this was a lot harder to figure out .

[kaywhyn]

Took me long enough to solve this one and only remaining level left. As you know, the latest version of this level was the only one I couldn't solve before you released the pack Somehow I feel this isn't intended, but I honestly can't see any other way to do it. Definitely one of the hardest levels of the pack now that it has gone through several versions. Then again, this solution of mine is more or less the same as the one I used for the previous version, just substituted two skills in place of the fencer to save the 2nd lemming.

[Strato Incendus]

Congratulations for beating the level again, kaywhyn!

As you guessed, no, this is indeed not intended, but I don't see a way of stopping it. And if it was that difficult to solve anyway, I don't think it's necessary to fix it even further either . This is simply an alternative solution that apparently wasn't any easier to figure out.

[kaywhyn]

The really weird thing is I'm not sure why it took me a really long time to find this solution despite it simply being a minor tweak of my previous solution where I used two skills in place of the fencer and then the rest remained the same. Before I finally solved it, I thought I was a dummy if I couldn't solve it but Armani and Gronkling seemed they were able to solve Hardcore 24 easily. I've seen both of their solutions, and honestly Armani's intended solution is awesome. On the other hand, Gronkling and I found the exact same solution, so now I don't feel as bad about the level stumping me this long

[ericderkovits]

ok here are my final levels of Hardcore 21-30.

Hard to say which level was the hardest. I think most of these 10 were not that hard(even level 30-although I used all my builders and destructive skills)

I think the Hardcore rank levels were actually easier than some in the loud and heavy ranks.

Also got the Talisman for level 26. So definitely the hardest Talisman in the pack was Loud 1(so now pack is finished including getting all the Talismans)

[Strato Incendus]

Congratulations on beating the entire pack, eric! No backroutes on these last ten levels!

Responses to your solutions (Hardcore 21 - 30)

21: Close to intended. Only the way you stopped the Fencer and the lemming coming from above at the end was a little different, I used a Bomber there.
22: Close to intended. You just cancelled the Miner a little earlier so that he didn't have to jump over to where the crowd was being contained. Usually, that Basher at the end re-frees the pioneer along with the crowd, because he gets trapped inside the anchor as well.
23: This is a fine alternative solution. Especially the end part is still as intended. After all the backroutes this level has been plagued by during testing, this is much more than I was daring to hope for!
24: This is very similar to the alternative solution kaywhyn found. If you didn't find it that hard, good on you! It seems like he struggled with this quite a bit, and he is one of our most adept solvers. Though that may have been the mental-state effect at work in his case, since he was one of my testers, and thus has played several previous iterations of this level, finding solutions (=backroutes) in the process that no longer work now. That may have made it harder for him to find the intended or his alternative solution than for somebody who approaches this level for the first time.
25: Very close to intended. You lost quite a few lemmings at the end who splatted just in front of the updraft. But that's one of the reasons why the save requirement is comparatively lenient. I used a couple of Jumpers to get the pioneer further ahead when platforming over the updraft. You also saved one Basher, which you could have used to bash through the pillar to get the pioneer back to bash through the one-way arrows. Somehow though, nobody has felt the need to do this yet.
26: That was an interesting choice to create a Digger shaft to allow the other Climbers to access the relevant section of the level more quickly. You're also only the second person to use a second Miner tunnel to get the lemmings over the first one, instead of a Basher tunnel.
27: Very close to intended, just the way you contained the crowd was a little different.
28: Very close to intended, I just didn't know it was possible to do the Miner work on the left side with a Climber without having him splat at some point. But you took care of that problem by digging and cancelling the Digger, thus making the wall no longer climbable. You used all the skills in the process, so this is a perfectly fine solution!
29: Very close to intended; I stoned the Climber at the end instead of a lemming from the crowd, because in my solution, the Climber would die otherwise anyway (since not enough Jumpers remain). You did things slightly differently, so you had precisely those two Jumpers to get the Climber off the walls that would have lead him to his death. You still used all the skills in the end nontheless. The great thing about your solution though is that it demonstrates the relative timing between the two worker lemmings isn't actually as crucial as it was in my intended solution. (Because in the intended one, you need to get the Climber to turn around before the lemming on the left goes through the one-way wall, lest the Climber would go through the tunnel, too, climb up, and die from the spike trap.)
30: This one is open-ended. Glad to see you had to use all the Builders, Jumpers, Shimmiers, as well as all of the destructive skills (except for the Bombers, of course, which you can't use anyway due to the save requirement).

Difficulty is subjective, as we've already established; kaywhyn definitely struggled a lot with Hardcore 24, and I believe it's fair to say that "Fall from grace" and "Symphony of destruction" are among the hardest levels of the pack.

I'm also noticing the subjectivity of difficulty for myself while currently playing SEB Lems - there were definitely a few levels on the highest regular rank (Rapture) that I could solve pretty quickly, whereas others still have me completely stumped (and some of the easier ones came after the tough nuts).

You're still only the second person to beat the pack, aside from my testers, though. So I would assume your solving skills have either drastically increased recently, or they've always been at a higher level than you may have given yourself credit for earlier, when you were more of a passive replay watcher .


A surprisingly high number of people downloaded the very first version of the pack, which I was very happy about, of course. But of course, I also noticed that the updates were always just downloaded by 1 or 2 people each. Maybe some people got frustrated by the pack because they got stuck somewhere, or they just got tired of updating several times in a row, because for a while, I had to update the pack with backroute fixes quite frequently. But things have certainly calmed down in that regard by now.

Therefore, I think for anyone still interested in continuing to play, now would be a good time to update your version of the pack again in case you haven't done so yet - since eric has finished it, so there shouldn't be any necessity for further backroute fixes for quite a while now.

[kaywhyn]

Difficulty is subjective, as we've already established; kaywhyn definitely struggled a lot with Hardcore 24, and I believe it's fair to say that "Fall from grace" and "Symphony of destruction" are among the hardest levels of the pack.

Yea, I honestly still have no idea why it took me so long to find that solution for Hardcore 24, but it's like you said it might be due to my mental state at what's supposedly a nearly completely patched up level, when I had severely backrouted it several times in the past. Actually, it's a little more than that as well, and that is there were a lot of things that kept complicating things for me, particularly how to release the crowd from the other side, releasing a blocker if used, and how only one can reach the bottom safely at first. Most troubling was how to save the second lemming. I never was able to find that solution due to all these complications/drawbacks. In the end, my solution was simply a minor tweak of the one I used in the previous version, and the crucial thing was

Spoiler

the placement of the first builder. It allows you to do double duty by bashing the blocker free and dig away the OWW to release the crowd, both without breaking away the staircase when interrupting them with shimmiers. I kept thinking the builder needed to be placed at the very edge. There's your idea of perseveration at work for me that you mentioned in your topic sometime ago    

Save for a few hard ones in each rank, I would definitely say the hardest level in the entire pack is Hardcore 20. That's the level that took me the longest to solve than any other level in the pack. I did see Gronkling's solution, and it's definitely much easier than what I pulled with the extreme precision.

What amazes me is how eric decided to go straight for a difficult pack. Normally, it's advised to play easier packs to ease the transition into playing more difficult packs, but some people either aren't comfortable playing the harder stuff or some still dive into the harder stuff first but get stuck badly and eventually give up altogether on the pack. Then again, Artlems was the very first custom pack he solved on his own, and if his comments are anything to go by, it sounds like it was a difficult pack. In particular, he found several Artlems levels quite difficult, and he also found several LOA levels really hard.

I'm also noticing the subjectivity of difficulty for myself while currently playing SEB Lems - there were definitely a few levels on the highest regular rank (Rapture) that I could solve pretty quickly, whereas others still have me completely stumped (and some of the easier ones came after the tough nuts).

I should be starting SEB Lems in a day or so, so help is on the way It's still going to be a while before I get to where you are, though, considering the sheer size of the pack. Then again, the largest pack I have finished to date so far is Lemmings Plus I, at 150 levels. At least in the New Formats version, SEB Lems is only larger by 10 levels. Even then, I don't expect to coast through this pack as quickly as I did with LPI, if the difficulty tag attached to the pack and your remarks on how hard both the Murder/Rapture ranks are. I might be in a league of my own when it comes to level solving, but I still get stumped from time to time even in packs considered not as hard.

[ericderkovits]

The reason I was able to beat Artlems and LOA was a big part of seeing alot of the tricks used by other people(mostly Kaywhyn-thanks). Even Icho's Reunion(which he uses alot of tricks) and also
United(seeing Kaywhyn's tricks and Icho's PMd solutions to it). So This helped me greatly in beating Artlems and LOA. Otherwise there would be no way in H*** I could have tackled these 2 custom packs. Also I really enjoyed your LOA Strato. The fact the levels used alot of the original and Ohno tile sets made it easier. Also the size of the levels other than Hardcore 30 were not huge unlike Icho's reunion and united (although that might be psychological as Kaywhyn mentioned before).

I would say looking back at the pack I think the hardest levels (for me that is) were

1) Hardcore 2 God Hates us all (I had so much trouble finding a way to keep Lemmings from splatting)
2) Hardcore 20 Symphony of Destruction (trying to figure out how to get the left lemmings up to the top, and the right lemming using a fencer-cancel to get him up near exit was difficult)
3) Heavy 27 Wooden Pints (was difficult in my solution as building from middle crowd to mined lemming was extremely precise- took along time to get right, also the skills were so limited)
4) Heavy 17 The Bee (was for me very difficult to execute-alot of the basher walker canceling was quite difficult-This level took me a while to get it right)

Of course the Hardest was getting the Talisman for Loud 1

[ericderkovits]

ok, I tweaked my Hardcore 25 replay to save 2 more lemmings(none splatted when the lead lemming started platforming above updraft).
what I did was instead of pioneer jumping off wall, I let him continue climbing then shimmy left to then land on stairs(thus saving a jumper for later to get a bigger headstart for when he
needs to platform over gap above updraft)

[Strato Incendus]

Well done, eric; that's precisely what I've placed the updraft there for!

Then again, the largest pack I have finished to date so far is Lemmings Plus I, at 150 levels.

I assume you're referring to your LP series here? Because of course I know you've finished both Lemmings World Tour and Lemmings United, both of which are larger.

[kaywhyn]

The reason I was able to beat Artlems and LOA was a big part of seeing alot of the tricks used by other people(mostly Kaywhyn-thanks). Even Icho's Reunion(which he uses alot of tricks) and also
United(seeing Kaywhyn's tricks and Icho's PMd solutions to it). So This helped me greatly in beating Artlems and LOA. Otherwise there would be no way in H*** I could have tackled these 2 custom packs.

Thanks for the info. This makes perfect sense. So you had some help beforehand from watching replays before you took on this pack. It's perfectly fine to admit that you needed some help with some of the levels, whether it's in the form of a verbal hint or a replay, as it's better to be honest than to pretend to be someone you're not. I know for sure you would had stayed with much easier packs than either Artlems or LOA otherwise, as these are somewhat beyond your comfort zone. There's nothing wrong with sticking with easier packs and avoiding the harder content if these aren't your cup of tea, as it's just better to do whatever makes you comfortable. Of course, you're still more than welcome to take on the hard stuff if you want. It's a better idea overall to simply play easier packs to help build up the training and experience to take on the harder content. After all, I didn't take on United before I have had so much training from playing and solving Dovelems, Pimolems, Reunion, Sublems, and RotL, as well as from the many Dos packs I have played and solved.

You're welcome with the help/assistance I have provided. It also sounds like you been following along with my LPs. If so, that's always a great way to get better as well. As you know, I'm more than happy to share with the community how I approach level solving in my videos, so those who would like to improve can certainly benefit from watching.

Also the size of the levels other than Hardcore 30 were not huge unlike Icho's reunion and united (although that might be psychological as Kaywhyn mentioned before).

Actually, the Reunion levels were just wide, as none of them have vertical scrolling since it started off as a pack on Lemmini. The ones that are both tall and wide tend to be extremely overwhelming. But yes, large levels tend to simply intimidate and mess with the player psychologically.

I would say looking back at the pack I think the hardest levels (for me that is) were

1) Hardcore 2 God Hates us all (I had so much trouble finding a way to keep Lemmings from splatting)
2) Hardcore 20 Symphony of Destruction (trying to figure out how to get the left lemmings up to the top, and the right lemming using a fencer-cancel to get him up near exit was difficult)
3) Heavy 27 Wooden Pints (was difficult in my solution as building from middle crowd to mined lemming was extremely precise- took along time to get right, also the skills were so limited)
4) Heavy 17 The Bee (was for me very difficult to execute-alot of the basher walker canceling was quite difficult-This level took me a while to get it right)

Both Hardcore 2 and 20 I can agree with as being hard levels. I can also agree with Heavy 27 and 17 to an extent, although it sounds like you overcomplicated the former. Let's just say that it's not easy to figure out the best route to take, as well as to consolidate the groups. As for the latter, it's not easy to figure out how to get up efficiently. Then of course there's a bunch of other levels that you mentioned as being hard for you on the other pages, although you probably meant that you thought they weren't anywhere near as these 4 which you thought were the hardest. This pack is definitely harder than Strato's earlier ones.

Of course the Hardest was getting the Talisman for Loud 1

Just because a talisman is hard doesn't necessarily mean the level itself is. There's plenty of cases where the talisman solution is much harder than the normal solution to the level. Sometimes they're just the normal solution with a few minor tweaks, but other times the solutions are drastically different. Regardless, as you know I don't care about the talismans at all. Any solution that works and solves the level is good enough for me. Not to mention that most of the talismans are beyond my ability to get, and personally I think it's not necessary to waste more time on a level than is needed, because it's time that can be well spent on other things.   

[Strato Incendus]

Regardless, as you know I don't care about the talismans at all. Any solution that works and solves the level is good enough for me. Not to mention that most of the talismans are beyond my ability to get, and personally I think it's not necessary to waste more time on a level than is needed, because it's time that can be well spent on other things.

Says the guy who went out of his way to look for a talisman solution for "The Grand Puzzle" without even a guarantee that it was possible at all...

[kaywhyn]

Says the guy who went out of his way to look for a talisman solution for "The Grand Puzzle" without even a guarantee that it was possible at all...

You suspected it was possible, and I did note that it was one that was potentially doable for one such as myself. Besides, I didn't really have anything else to do early that morning

[ericderkovits]

ok one more change to Hardcore 25. I used the basher previously not used(instead of digging from top of pillar to get pickups, I bashed right even with top pickup then dug). This managed to save 3
more lemmings(so now saved 70, 5 over requirement). So after saving just the requirement(65), after tweak 1(67), after 2nd small change(70).

[ericderkovits]

ok I now have my solutions to the pack uploaded to my channel on youtube. Just type lemmings open air in the youtube search bar and you will see my playlist. There are 8 videos.
2 videos for each rank(15 levels per video).

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks a lot, eric! Since I've already watched all of them in the NeoLemmix player and your videos are uncommented, I personally won't watch them all again. But it's a great thing to have for anyone who is playing and looking for solutions. If you keep this approach for other packs, you will be a great help for IchoTolot and his "library of replays".

Your newest solution to Hardcore 25 is a great way of using the additional Basher! Saving 5 more lemmings doesn't seem to warrant adding another talisman for me, especially because the solution isn't that different from the main one, but 70 is a nice round number.

[David]

Hello Strato Incendus,

Here my replays : Loud 20 to Heavy 15 (+ Loud 9 and Loud 10 which have been updated).

Loud 1 : I'm missing the talisman, I still haven't managed to earn it...
Loud 21 : The water is only visible on the support, that is to say that it is no longer seen when the ground is exploded, it is disturbing ! Anyway, I didn't like this level at all...
Loud 28 : The falling snow is unpleasant. I played the level with the "gray mode" (mode whose name I don't know !)

Otherwise, I really liked most of the levels, especially Loud 22, Loud 29, Heavy 10 and Heavy 13 !!!

And I wonder if my solution of the following levels are backroutes : Loud 20, Heavy 3 (too simple !) and Heavy 14 (the solution didn't seem very interesting to me !)...

Bye !

[ericderkovits]

yes, loud 1 getting the Talisman is perhaps the hardest level in the whole pack. Even though I managed to get it, it wasn't Armani's obsure way of getting it. It would be interesting to see what his
obsure trick was.

also loud 29 was also probably my favorite level in the whole pack due to the solution, although I backrouted it first.

Also It may look like I will have to update my youtube solutions with any updates of the pack, if David backrouted any levels in his new batch.

[kaywhyn]

Congrats David! You're doing well. Almost done with the Heavy rank and then onto the final Hardcore rank.

yes, loud 1 getting the Talisman is perhaps the hardest level in the whole pack.

Let's get our facts straight. Loud 1 is nowhere near the hardest level of the entire pack. But yes, in terms of talismans, it's likely the hardest one to obtain in the whole pack.

Also It may look like I will have to update my youtube solutions with any updates of the pack, if David backrouted any levels in his new batch.

Levels getting updated happen all the time, especially with still very active pack authors, so truthfully I wouldn't bother with reuploading video solutions of the up-to-date levels. For example, with my LPs, even after a pack gets updated, I'm not going to go back and LP the levels that changed. I likely wouldn't go back and resolve any patched up levels either once I'm done solving a pack. LOA is likely an exception, since I was a pre-tester, so at some point I will go back and resolve them, as except for Hardcore 24 I haven't downloaded any new pack versions since the pack's release.

[ericderkovits]

hi kaywhyn. Yes loud 1 is definitely not the hardest level, in fact it's quite easy. Maybe I phrased it wrong, what I should have said is getting the Loud 1 Talisman is harder solving than any other level, at least for me that is. I just wish people wouldn't even put Talisman's in their packs. I don't like them at all. But the only reason I want them is I feel that pack is missing something when their not obtained. Even Icho went back and got the Lemming World tour Groupie 40 Talisman, even when at first he said it wasn't worth the time.

And as far as updating my Youtube ones, I will still keep the older ones(if Strato updates the pack). I will just add the new Youtube video's with the updated ones. Also Since I don't play many packs
(mainly because they're too difficult for me.) I don't mind resolving the levels, Since I don't have much going on right now in lemmings. In fact, I've been also playing the Age of Empires games that
Icho says he's been playing (The Definitive version). Also Age of Empires 2 is the best of these ones.

Also I've entered my 3 levels for level contest 22, I noticed you said you were going to enter. I wonder if you still plan on entering

[kaywhyn]

hi kaywhyn. Yes loud 1 is definitely not the hardest level, in fact it's quite easy. Maybe I phrased it wrong, what I should have said is getting the Loud 1 Talisman is harder solving than any other level, at least for me that is. I just wish people wouldn't even put Talisman's in their packs. I don't like them at all. But the only reason I want them is I feel that pack is missing something when their not obtained.

Perfectly understandable. You can probably think of it this way: They're not necessary in order to solve a pack. If they were mandatory, I think too many would get frustrated and not make it to the end. Just solving the pack suffices, at least for me it does. That's why I don't bother with talismans. Plus some are just beyond my ability to get, and I don't play the game that rigorously.

And as far as updating my Youtube ones, I will still keep the older ones(if Strato updates the pack). I will just add the new Youtube video's with the updated ones. Also Since I don't play many packs
(mainly because they're too difficult for me.) I don't mind resolving the levels, Since I don't have much going on right now in lemmings.

Right, keep the vids of the unpatched levels that you currently have up. No need to take those down. Even if only a couple of levels end up changing from the time I upload solutions, I likely won't bother uploading the newly patched up ones as well.

I do have a recommendation for you, and that is you might want to change the video titles of your Lemmings Reunion ones too. They're all titled Lemmings Reunion, which isn't very descriptive and helpful. You can probably put in the rank and level number followed by the level title. Or, you can simply title it the rank name and the level number, or even just title it the level name.

In fact, I've been also playing the Age of Empires games that
Icho says he's been playing (The Definitive version). Also Age of Empires 2 is the best of these ones.

How funny. I've been playing AoE myself the last several days. It's another game that I grew up with as well. I bought it on Steam a while back, but I hadn't gotten around to playing it until now. There are some things that do bother me, such as how it's extremely difficult to see everything in the UI because everything is so small, but that's because my laptop's native display resolution is quite high. I could simply fix it by lowering it in game, but I rather keep it at my laptop's default if I can help it. Nevertheless, I absolutely love the much improved graphics in the DE version.

Also I've entered my 3 levels for level contest 22, I noticed you said you were going to enter. I wonder if you still plan on entering

Yes, I still plan to enter. I decided to take a break from Lemmings the past week due to being horribly stuck in SEB Lems, but I just got myself unstuck, so I'm going to be trying to finish up my LP of it. The break was definitely much needed. The crazy thing is that I have played nothing but Lemmings daily for the last 10 months. I can understand people getting sick of the game after about a month or so, but to have played it for 10 months straight like I did... Hopefully it won't take me too long to pick up the NL editor.

[ericderkovits]

Oh wow, I would never have come up with this way to get the Talisman for Loud 1. Thanks Armani!!!

[David]

kaywhyn, ericderkovits : thank you for your advice and encouragement !

There is only one level that I didn't complete in the Heavy rank : Heavy 17. I find it very difficult !

Then, since I don't solve the levels in order, I have successfully completed 13 levels of the Hardcore rank.

I am reassured that the Loud 1 talisman is so difficult for everybody... I will try again later, probably.

[ericderkovits]

hi David. Yes Heavy 17(The Bee was hard for me too, I put it at no 4. as being the hardest for me). And yes getting the Talisman for Loud 1 is really difficult. I finally managed to get it (different
though than Armani's(he pmd me his)).

Spoiler

To get the Talisman it comes down to fiddling with the diggers

Anyways, it's good that your about half-way through the Hardcore rank already. I actually found the Hardcore rank not as difficult as the loud or heavy ranks(-minus 2 levels: Hardcore 2 and 20 were
for me at least the hardest in the rank.)

[kaywhyn]

Way to go, David! You're very well on your way to finishing solving the whole pack. When I pretested the pack, I found the Loud rank easier than the Soft rank. Then the levels got hard again in the Heavy rank, but overall other than the odd 1 or a few levels in each rank, I honestly felt no real challenge with LOA until somewhere around the Heavy rank. Even Hardcore I felt was not very difficult at all, although I'm in agreement with eric that Hardcore 2 and 20 are the hardest of the rank. 24 was also a difficult one for me in its current version, as it was the only level I couldn't resolve before Strato released the pack. It was more due to how I couldn't get around the many problems the level presents before I finally came up with a slight tweak to my previous solution that simply substituted a couple of skills in place of the now absent fencer once again. Before the current version, both Armani and I backrouted the heck out of the level several times.

Heavy 17 is definitely a difficult level, so you're not alone there. I'm sure you can get it eventually, though. There's just a lot of precision needed. Regarding talismans, I personally don't care about obtaining them, as I generally don't play the game rigorously. I simply am content with solving the levels in any way possible, even if it's cheesy and hackish. Not to mention that most talismans are beyond my ability to get, so I usually don't bother. Think of it this way, though. It's a good thing that talismans aren't mandatory in order to solve a pack. Otherwise I think it will frustrate too many of the ones who don't care for them and possibly result in rage quits.

So, if you can't get the Loud 1 talisman, don't worry too much about it. Of course, Loud 1 is a very easy level if you know how, but here the talisman solution is more or less the same as the normal solution but is considerably much harder and definitely requires very good handling of the game with the digger mechanics. I myself don't know where to even start in getting the talisman, but as I said I don't care about it, so I'm not even going to try.

[David]

Strato Incendus : Here my replays (Heavy 16 to Hardcore 17 (with all talismans !))
I really liked most of the levels. I found Heavy 17, Heavy 27, Hardcore 2, and Hardcore 5 difficult (and great !) Otherwise, Heavy 18, Heavy 26 and Heavy 29 seemed too easy to me ! Backroutes ?


kaywhyn : Unlike you, I'm always looking to level up with the talisman, it's like a challenge for me. If I don't win the talisman, I feel like I haven't really solved the level. But if I find that the talisman is too difficult - like for Loud 1 - I prefer to drop it so as not to waste time. However, like you, I'm looking to solve the levels in any way I can (while trying to win the talisman ).

hen I pretested the pack, I found the Loud rank easier than the Soft rank. Then the levels got hard again in the Heavy rank, but overall other than the odd 1 or a few levels in each rank, I honestly felt no real challenge with LOA until somewhere around the Heavy rank.

I agree, although I found some pretty difficult levels in the top two ranks. Still, I have to admit that I've learned a lot of tricks that I didn't know in the last few weeks, so I've improved in level solving since I started the LOA pack.

Currently, I have almost finished the pack, I still have 6 levels to solve : 2 levels on which I spent a lot of time but which I can not solve (Hardcore 18 and Hardcore 24) and 4 levels that I haven't tried yet, or very few (Hardcore 20, Hardcore 22, Hardcore 25 and Hardcore 30). I don't give up !


ericderkovits : thanks for your help and explanations, but your spoiler doesn't help me much !

I find the Hardcore rank quite difficult, but it's true that most of the levels aren't that much harder than the Heavy rank. I very liked the level Hardcore 2 but I needed a lot of testing before I found the solution !

Hardcore 18 and Hardcore 24 are the two levels that are problematic for me at the moment. I spent a lot of time but couldn't find a solution ! But I keep looking... eyes wide open...

[kaywhyn]

kaywhyn : Unlike you, I'm always looking to level up with the talisman, it's like a challenge for me. If I don't win the talisman, I feel like I haven't really solved the level. But if I find that the talisman is too difficult - like for Loud 1 - I prefer to drop it so as not to waste time. However, like you, I'm looking to solve the levels in any way I can (while trying to win the talisman ).

Perfectly understandable. They can definitely be thought of as challenges, but optional. Just be thankful they aren't mandatory Of course, if you feel you must, go for them.

I agree, although I found some pretty difficult levels in the top two ranks. Still, I have to admit that I've learned a lot of tricks that I didn't know in the last few weeks, so I've improved in level solving since I started the LOA pack.

Currently, I have almost finished the pack, I still have 6 levels to solve : 2 levels on which I spent a lot of time but which I can not solve (Hardcore 18 and Hardcore 24) and 4 levels that I haven't tried yet, or very few (Hardcore 20, Hardcore 22, Hardcore 25 and Hardcore 30). I don't give up !

Nicely done! Perhaps the next time you make another post you'll be completely done with the pack.

Gronkling also said that Hardcore 24 was difficult, and I did as well, at least in its current version. Before release, Armani and I backrouted the heck out of it Not to mention it was the very last level that I couldn't resolve before release. So, unfortunately you're the part of the community that has to play the level at its peak difficulty I'm sure you'll be able to figure out both Hardcore 18 and 24, though.

The best way to get better at solving is just to play more packs. Perhaps after finishing this pack, you could always fall back and take on content a bit on the easier side if difficult packs are beyond your comfort zone. You're still more than welcome to play the difficult packs and see how far you get, but you're not under any obligation to play them if you don't want to. It's perfectly fine to stick to easier packs if those are more up your alley. 

[David]

I just passed Hardcore 18 (and Hardcore 22, not very difficult !).

For Hardcore 24, I spent a lot of time and I feel like I tried all the possibilities... So far, this is the level I have the most problem with in this pack !

When I finish this pack, I will probably start another one (but which one, I don't know ? If you have any ideas for me, kaywhyn...), and since I like challenges, I will try a pack of 'an equivalent difficulty : medium/hard. The difficulty of this pack suits me perfectly. More difficult, it would be too hard, I think ! At least for now !

[kaywhyn]

Packs that I have played that I recommend: Dovelems, Pimolems, Lemmings Reunion, Lemmings Plus 1, Mazulems, and Sublems. For the first three, I've only played the Lemmini version, but save for some levels which needed to be reworked in order to work in NL, the levels are pretty much the exact same. They're also the very first custom packs I've played. Actually, Mazulems was the first, though I played that on Dos a long time ago. I have yet to play the New Formats version. Lemmings Reunion has the same difficulty tag as LOA. All the other packs I've mentioned have a difficulty below or not that far under Reunion. Even then, there's always those recommended packs or any other pack really that you can play through in case Reunion gets too tough. I would suggest anyone play through easier packs first before taking on the harder packs, anyway.

Another pack worth taking a look at would be Icho's Neolemmix Tutorial Pack. It has a difficulty tag of beginner, but that doesn't mean the pack is a complete pushover Besides, Icho can certainly use some additional feedback to improve the pack further Clammings is another great pack as well, though that one gets very hard quite fast. 

[David]

OK, thanks ! I won't be bored. I will see...  Anyway, I've already downloaded all the packs you mentioned (except for MazuLems).


Pimolems, I did the first three ranks and some bonus levels. I had stopped playing it because I wanted to make packs with the new skills. But I will probably continue one day...

[ericderkovits]

yes heavy 26(To Hell and Back) is too backroutable. But I wanted to send a lemming to hell and back, so I went for that solution(even though I saved just 58). One doesn't even need to do it though. This level can be solved saving 60 without sending a lemming to Hell and back(perhaps there's a way to fix the level so a lemming has to go to hell and back)

[David]

yes heavy 26(To Hell and Back) is too backroutable. But I wanted to send a lemming to hell and back, so I went for that solution(even though I saved just 58). One doesn't even need to do it though. This level can be solved saving 60 without sending a lemming to Hell and back(perhaps there's a way to fix the level so a lemming has to go to hell and back)

Totally agree ! I managed to save them all without sending a single one into the hand of hell !

Heavy 18 seemed even more "backroutable" to me. I succeeded the first time, and with the talisman.

Strato Incendus may make some changes to these levels.

[Strato Incendus]

Looks like there is somebody new breezing through this pack now!

I've watched all your replays up to the end of the Loud rank. Everything I saw was either as intended, close to intended, or fine alternative solutions.

The only level that will require a minor fix is Loud 26 (I've already changed it in my level file, but it isn't implemented in the download yet; I'll post everything together in one big update).

And, just as I feared, Loud 20 seems to remain unfixable.

On the bright side, though, you're the first one who got the main trick I intended for "Viva la vida"!

[David]

Hello Strato Incendus,

Okay ! Very well ! For Loud 20, why not replace shimmiers with walkers ? The level would be much more interesting, and possible to achieve. However, I don't know what the intended solution was...


Otherwise, there are still two levels that I failed to solve : Hardcore 20 (too difficult !) and Hardcore 30 (I don't like levels that are too long !). But I'm happy, I passed Hardcore 24. I'll post my latest replays soon... Bye !

[ericderkovits]

Yes now that 12.11 stable has been released, now the level Heavy 13 (Let the bodies hit the floor) needs the fix with the zombies leaving the screen on the sloped terrain in the water as it makes the level too easy. This is the only level that is affected by the new swimmer patch. Although Loud 21 is a little more difficult to solve with the new swimmer patch but doesn't need any fix.

also good the climber-shimmier on a stack bug was fixed as now Loud 5 can no longer use the climber to solve the level.


Also now nice to hear the post-level jingles with your pack.

Also awaiting new updates with the pack to fix some backroutes you mentioned.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for the overview, eric. Those are not the only levels, though; "Charred remains" on the Hardcore rank is also affected. It's just that nobody completely found the intended solution there.

Fortunately, the fix for "Charred remains" was easy enough - just a small piece of terrain had to be added - and curiously, that didn't even cause my old replay to break.

"I believe I can fly" may not have absolutely required a fix, however...

Loud 21

I still found it way too much of a hassle to solve it with this new behaviour, where Swimmers seem to insist on going underneath Stoners no matter what. Even when the Stoners perfectly connected with each other, at some point the Swimmers simply wouldn't get any further up.

Therefore, the saving requirement has been loosened, and while I was at it, I've also built in a way back for any Swimmers that slip by. I probably should have done that much earlier; it just never occurred to me that it would be this easy to do.

"Let the bodies hit the floor" has received a small steel piece to prevent the zombies from swimming out, as suggested.

The updated version is attached to the starting post. Please keep reporting any issues you find! My mass replay check didn't show any further breakages for my replays, but yours might.
(No new backroute fixes yet, right now I just wanted to ensure as quickly as possible that the pack remains fully playable with the newest version.)

And yay for post-level jingles FINALLY being back! These have been around since Lemmings World Tour, yet so far New Formats never had an option of playing them, unless you flat-out replaced the default ones in your root sound folder.

[kaywhyn]

All rightie, I feel enough time has passed since the release of LOA, and so now I feel is a good time for me to post my complete set of replays for the pack. The zip includes replays for levels resolved. Those who have completed the pack are free to compare their solutions to mine. Most of the solutions are simply from the time I pre-tested the pack. The only one I had to tweak was Hardcore 7, as for some very odd reason my replay didn't work. I realized that it's a repeat of Loud 4, so that's likely why. Maybe it's due to having the same ID? Yet interestingly enough, my replays worked fine for Heavy 20 and Hardcore 17, although this repeat pair was reported as "undetermined" instead of "fail" like the former repeat pair. So really, I'm confused why one repeat pair was reported as "failed" while the other "undetermined."

The levels I had to resolve are

• Soft 17
• Soft 23
• Loud 9
• Loud 15
• Loud 16
• Loud 20
• Loud 21
• Loud 29
• Heavy 1
• Heavy 12
• Hardcore 11
• Hardcore 16
• Hardcore 27
• Hardcore 28

In other words, these were the levels that changed since the pack's release that broke my replays that I did not resolve until recently. There were several others that the mass replay check marked as failed, but most of them didn't have a problem. I simply needed to rerun the replay on the levels it reported to fix.

Loud 21 was the one that broke due to the swimmer physics change and because of the way swimmers interact with stoners and the behavior being very much different now in contrast to the old behavior pre v12.11, the save requirement was adjusted and hugely relaxed to compensate.

The last ones that I resolved were Loud 9 and 15. Interestingly enough, I really struggled with the former even though I solved it very quickly in pre-testing.

Spoiler

This time, it took me a very long time to realize that the bottom right is climber-friendly and hence I could spare a builder instead of using two to get up, even though I realized this very quickly in pre-testing. Ah yea, these lapses of time and my age is definitely showing Before that, I kept being a skill short every time. I even had to check eric's video just to make sure I had the right version. Indeed, it was confirmed via the preview screen, and so nothing else was spoiled, as that was the only screen I saw. Even then, it was quite amusing I struggled with resolving the level for a very long time. The level isn't that much harder at all than the times I kept backrouting the level. Simply due to me overlooking one very tiny detail in the bottom right

For the latter, I thought the final parts of the solution was going to be quite fiddly, but it turns out it wasn't so bad.

Soft 23 also took some time, although nowhere near as much as the final two levels I resolved.

The levels I thought that became so much better as a result of being patched up are Loud 29 and Heavy 12, though the latter took me a while to resolve.

The ones I unfortunately still backrouted are Hardcore 11 and Loud 20. The latter is an extremely severe backroute, as I don't even use the pickup skills in my solution.

edit: Strato, do you by any chance have a list of LOA levels that were not part of your 2019 demo?

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for the updated replays, kaywhyn; sorry, no idea which levels were part of the demo and which weren't, because I've deleted those folders to avoid redundancy and possible confusion with older versions of levels. But in principle, everything that came after this post in the development thread should be eligible for Level-of-the-Year nomination, in case that's the reason you're asking. Except for "Paid in full", since in the post I mentioned that I had already included it in the previous version, i.e. still in 2019.

I'm pretty sure LOA was a pack for which I shared almost every level image in the development thread, so this "list" should be fairly complete. The majority of the Heavy and Hardcore rank was made after the introduction of the Jumper, i.e. well within 2020.

[kaywhyn]

Thanks for the updated replays, kaywhyn; sorry, no idea which levels were part of the demo and which weren't, because I've deleted those folders to avoid redundancy and possible confusion with older versions of levels. But in principle, everything that came after this post in the development thread should be eligible for Level-of-the-Year nomination, in case that's the reason you're asking. Except for "Paid in full", since in the post I mentioned that I had already included it in the previous version, i.e. still in 2019.

I'm pretty sure LOA was a pack for which I shared almost every level image in the development thread, so this "list" should be fairly complete. The majority of the Heavy and Hardcore rank was made after the introduction of the Jumper, i.e. well within 2020.

You are correct about me asking in regards to the LOTY. I did check the link, and indeed the number of level images does add up to the correct number of levels finished since the previous post, so yes, it does look like indeed the levels in the images are the only ones eligible for nomination. In that case, I'll have to find some other levels then, because there was one that I wanted to nominate but it's unfortunately not eligible. It's Loud 29 - You Keep Me Hanging On. Such a shame, because I like the level so much better now that it's been properly patched. However, I do see a couple of level images from the LOA development post after the one you link to that will definitely get a nomination from me I think you'll see once nominations close in a few days

In the meantime, I plan to post my LOA solutions to my Youtube soon

[ericderkovits]

What a coincidence, I was thinking about Loud 29 for LOTY. This was my favorite level in LOA. Oh well. I just love the solution. This level I backrouted so Strato had to patch it.

[kaywhyn]

This level I backrouted so Strato had to patch it.

Actually, the backroute you used for Loud 29 was the exact same one I used back when I pre-tested the pack Strato simply decided not to fix it at the time.

[Strato Incendus]

I think it's generally a little weird that part of a pack is eligible for LOTY and another part isn't. It would make more sense in my book if all levels in a pack were considered "released" in the year the pack itself was released. That would also avoid these issues of having to "backtrack" which levels were created when.

Those first ones were levels uploaded for pre-release testing. I'd say that's a bit like counting the test levels for the experimental version with the new skills for LOTY 2020 instead of LOTY 2021, when the thing that officially allows to play those levels (the stable NeoLemmix player with the new skills or, in my case, the full level pack in 2020) will be released. Because a level obviously gets much more attention from players after its official release than during testing. And especially LOA got a lot of attention in the first weeks after its release!

I think this kind of "punishes" level designers for taking more time to create their packs, or for uploading pre-release versions of levels. If I had kept those levels for myself or only shared them with testers via private messages instead, all levels in the pack would have been considered "released in 2020".

Granted, those demo levels of LOA were eligible for LOTY 2019, so I can see how they shouldn't get two chances. I was just quite surprised to find them eligible for nomination of LOTY 2019 to begin with. The levels from the very first demo (uploaded just a few days before New Year's Eve) were actually only eligible for LOTY 2018.

In the end, I don't regret having shared some of those levels earlier, since they definitely helped creating some "hype" for this pack over the two years that it's been in development. And that hype absolutely paid off when I finally released it. Having lots of players (in reference to the size of our small community) enjoy my pack is what ultimately matters the most to me, not whether a level that several players enjoy is eligible for LOTY (because only few people got to see e.g. Loud 29 when it was first released in a demo version, and in a very backroute-able state, as kaywhyn and eric have mentioned).

Some might just argue that the popularity of a level is something the LOTY "contest" should be able to reflect. And a level can simply attract more attention, which is the necessary condition to gain popularity in the first place, after the official release of its pack than during the demo phase. So if the demo phase and the pack release are in different years (which can easily happen for larger packs that take at least 1 year to develop), that's when those levels easily slip out of the LOTY pool of candidates, despite the demo version of a level not necessarily being an accurate reflection of its eventual popularity.

[kaywhyn]

I think it's generally a little weird that part of a pack is eligible for LOTY and another part isn't. It would make more sense in my book if all levels in a pack were considered "released" in the year the pack itself was released. That would also avoid these issues of having to "backtrack" which levels were created when.

I couldn't agree more

In the end, I don't regret having shared some of those levels earlier, since they definitely helped creating some "hype" for this pack over the two years that it's been in development. And that hype absolutely paid off when I finally released it. Having lots of players (in reference to the size of our small community) enjoy my pack is what ultimately matters the most to me, not whether a level that several players enjoy is eligible for LOTY

Absolutely, the prerelease photos were definitely a great idea. Just look at my posts detailing how much I was blown away by what I was seeing The fact that LOA was in development for a few years was well worth it in the end, as I feel you released a very high-quality pack. It was an honor being one of your pre-testers, and your subsequent packs just get better and better in quality. I think I'm pretty much in agreement with you in that it matters more to me that people are enjoying my levels/pack(s) than whether they get nominated for a LOTY or some contest. Winning a contest here on the forums is the least of my worries. I simply made my first foray into level designing by entering my first contest with LDC #22 just for the fun of it and see whether I'm capable of making a Lemmings level, and at the end of the day the important thing is that I'm enjoying myself, which admittedly I'm enjoying it more than I thought I would. Even then, I honestly still prefer to solve/test other people's levels rather than make them

I'm really looking forward to your future packs that you have planned. That reminds me. I shall look at your Drugs, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (oops, I remembered wrong ) demo pack soon. Be on the lookout for feedback

[Proxima]

I think it's generally a little weird that part of a pack is eligible for LOTY and another part isn't. It would make more sense in my book if all levels in a pack were considered "released" in the year the pack itself was released.

According to the LOTY topic, that is how it works:

* To clarify here: If it was released publicly prior to 1st Janurary 2020 as part of a demo or preview, but the full pack was released during the eligible period, the level is fine (as long as it wasn't nominated for LOTY2015/2016/2017/2018/2019).

[Strato Incendus]

Ah, okay, I got a little confused when I saw that Loud 29 had been nominated. IchoTolot just confirmed to me that this is fine in a private message.

I just remember that the first batch of 30 levels I had released as a demo for LOA in late 2018 was somehow eligible for LOTY 2018 (but I think none of them were nominated), so even those would count.

Anyways, nominations seem to be through now, and I'm happy to have four levels in the race! Thanks to everyone who nominated one of them!

[kaywhyn]

All rightie, I have started a level solving commentary video series for your LOA pack Here is the link to the playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbp2m4KlFpJv6sspaCI22Lt1i9kLzL5RX. Enjoy!

I originally was just going to simply upload video solutions to the pack without commentary, but I later changed my mind and decided to do it with post-commentary, as I prefer these kinds of videos, and they seem to make for great entertainment, as it's always fun for others to hear other people's thoughts on the levels/pack. In short, it's essentially a video series where I show off my solutions to your pack and I share my thoughts on the levels and what my thought processes were while I was solving them. I also in a way felt an obligation to return the favor, since I was one of the pre-testers. I did a similar thing with Icho's Lemmings United pack, where I did a post-commentary video series on it, and he absolutely enjoyed it. I'm sure you'll enjoy this video series of mine as well

[ericderkovits]

Awesome, I will be watching your commentary and comparing your solutions to mine and commenting on youtube as this was a pack I really enjoyed and was able to finish.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks a lot, kaywhyn! Looks like I have a lot to watch at the moment, between this new series of yours and Arty's reactivated Let's Play of Lemmings World Tour.

[ericderkovits]

ok, I thought it would be cool to have the pack also with the actual songs listed in the levels. So I downloaded the songs listed in the pack from Youtube(in MP3 form) and put them into a subfolder(LOA) in the music folder. Then using the editor I put the corresponding song listed in the level into the music field. But I have a 2nd pack called Lemming Open Air with actual songs(Still wanted the original pack also with the L1 tunes). Note: Very Important. Also If one does the pack on Youtube, One should use the L1 tunes one to avoid Copyright. But for your own enjoyment one can hear the actual songs also.  NL allows using MP3 format.

Now when I play the pack using my replays, I get to hear the actual songs(downloaded from Youtube).

For the most part I like all the Soft rank songs, and most of the Loud rank songs, some are ok in the Heavy rank. But don't really care for the Hardcore rank ones,

Ones I really like are:
Soft: 1,2,3,5, 8, 10, 11 (Another great one), 12, 14, 18, 20(my favorite), 22, 23, 26, 27, 28, 29,30(Like this alot)
Loud 2 (Favorite of this rank), 3, 4, 9, 10, 11, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21, 25, 29
Heavy: 6, 7, 10, 13(level still needs the swimmer change fix though as zombies exit water at bottom), 14, 23, 24, 25, 27, 30(probably my favorite of the rank)
Hardcore: 4, 8(It's ok), 16 (it's ok), 20(it's ok), 25(slightly ok).

The Hardcore rank songs are I guess just not the type of music I like.



UPDATE: As suggested by Strato, I think it's best to remove the links to the pack with the copyrighted music here on the forum for anybody to access.
If you wish to have it, Please PM that you wish to have it instead and I will PM you the links with the knowledge that these are only for your personal enjoyment and NOT
to be used for use other than your personal enjoyment(IE: NOT intended for using on Youtube)

Enjoy!!!

[Strato Incendus]

Wow, you really must enjoy this pack a lot if you go to such lengths!

I remember somebody making that effort for Paralems, where many of the tracks referred to copyrighted film music or similar. But for every single one of 120 levels, that's an entirely different dimension of dedication.

PS: "Let the bodies hit the floor" (Heavy 13) has been updated a while ago. Maybe you just don't have the latest version of the pack. The Zombies swimming out at the bottom edge of the level should no longer be a thing, I've added a steel piece there. I just checked whether my latest version of the level is also the one included in the ZIP download, and yes, it is (last modified on 8th February 2021).

[ericderkovits]

Ok, I didn't realise there was an update. Downloaded the new pack. Thanks Strato for mentioning there was an update as I didn't have it.

Also It looks like 4 levels were updated.
None of the updated levels broke my replays, except now because of Heavy 13(Let the bodies hit the floor) was updated the 1 top platformer got infected but that's ok, as instead
of 1 over the requirement now I just met the requirement which was the same before the swimmer change.

updated levels

Loud 21 (I believe I can fly) appears to have a small diagonal gap now just below the hatch on the floor. My replay still the same and doesn't break.
             I notice though it breaks David's solution(He must have backrouted it)

Loud 26 (Euphoria) appears now to have 4 steel block added. Again doesn't break my replay. It does break David's again(must be a backroute fix)

Heavy 13 (Let the bodies hit the floor). Added steel to prevent zombies exiting water left of bottom tranporter(due to new swimmer change-mentioned by Strato as a fix)
               As stated above I just saved the met requirement instead of 1 over due to a zombie infecting the top platformer.
               And yes I let the Bodies hit the floor in my solution

Hardcore 11 (Charred Remains) The only difference I can see is a small piece of terrain on bottom of steel blocks right of of rightmost hatch. I think Strato said this level needed
                   fixing for the Intended solution due to the new swimmer change.


Note: also updated the 4 levels in my Mega storage for the actual music ones. Same Link above will work with the 4 changed updated levels for the actual music ones.

[Strato Incendus]

I hadn't written it at the top of that post, but I did mention the update in my post from early February:

"Let the bodies hit the floor" has received a small steel piece to prevent the zombies from swimming out, as suggested.

The updated version is attached to the starting post. Please keep reporting any issues you find! My mass replay check didn't show any further breakages for my replays, but yours might.
(No new backroute fixes yet, right now I just wanted to ensure as quickly as possible that the pack remains fully playable with the newest version.)

Yes, all the changes to the four levels you mentioned are part of the latest update.

[Strato Incendus]

Since I just wrote this on YouTube, I'm also adding it here:

ericderkovits's modified version of Lemmings Open Air, including the versions of the levels, the music tracks they're referencing, and the MP3 files themselves that ericderkovits shared along with his version of the pack, are not something I officially endorse. I just want to make it absolutely clear that I am not responsible for any copyright violations related to the music tracks ericderkovits shared here for use in his version, nor for any backroutes that might still be present in those levels.

I will only keep updating the official pack, whenever backroute fixes, physics changes etc. require it. The level titles themselves being named after songs is not meant as an incentive to use the actual songs those levels are named after as background music, even though you're of course free to do so while playing the pack privately if you own those tracks. However, this is definitely not meant as an incentive to download any of these songs somewhere illegally.

The intended music for Lemmings Open Air consists only of the tracks I uploaded in my music pack for it (see the opening post of this thread), which are all entirely self-recorded by me.

The compositions of those tracks are either public domain (like Alla Turca, Forest Green etc.) or belong to DMA / Psygnosis.
For those tracks where the latter is the case, I'm not using any potentially copyrighted compositions for Lemmings Open Air or Lemmings World Tour that the NeoLemmix player itself doesn't already use by default.


EDIT: On my request, eric has removed the links to his version of the pack (and the matching music tracks) from his post (thanks! ).
He's free to share them via private message with anyone interested in playing the pack privately with the different tunes.

[ericderkovits]

ok, I've just watched Icho's solutions to LOTY 2020 of the 4 levels from this pack; for the levels Loud 29(You keep me hangin' on) and
Hardcore 28 (The puzzle), his solutions don't seem intended.  And his solution to Loud 29,  I don't think it is quite the intended one.

For Loud 29

Spoiler

since Icho used a shimmier who wasn't a glider, I think if that spot where the shimmier falls is splat height. his solution will fail.
The shimmier isn't supposed to be a non-glider as in Icho's solution to loud 29 he had the shimmier not start from the far right.
He picked the shimmier from the crowd(non-glider), and had it shimmy left from the middle. Also he didn't even use the digger pickup skill. I think the actual intended one is a very special one as I don't like Icho's not quite intended one. I still would like to see this level have the true intended solution, where the shimmier is a glider shimmying from the far right (Also shimmiers are one of my favorite skills so I would definitely like to see the glider shimmying from the far right as intended). Also I really love the actual intended solution as this is my favorite level of the pack and would like the intended one truly enforced as this level was nominated as LOTY
2020.

For Hardcore 28

Spoiler

Icho had way too many skills left, so his solution doesn't feel intended either although I'm not sure what the actual intended solution is. My solution used every skill and was totally different than icho's. Maybe this level might need a fix too.

here is the suggested fixed .nxlv for Loud29.

and included the intended solution to show it works for the adjusted level.
also included Icho's attempted solution for the adjusted level showing the non-glider shimmier will splat.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I've found IchoTolot's YouTube video for my LOTY-nominated levels and will watch his solutions there first, so I can also hear his comments on them.

[kaywhyn]

Wow, I can't believe it's now officially been a year since this pack's release! All this time has sure gone by really quickly. And to think that I had the honor of being one of your pre-testers of this pack from around this time last year It definitely was the right move, especially since this latest pack of yours is of far higher quality than all your previously released packs thus far Not that LWT wasn't, as it's not that far behind, but then again I am a music person, and these two happen to be musically themed packs

Anyway, I do have two replays that I've been meaning to post but for some reason I haven't yet They are for Loud 20 and Hardcore 25. The former is one of those seemingly unfixable levels due to backroutes, but this replay is more to show that this latest version of the level is possible to complete without a bomber, as I remember going through the thread and reading that long before this version that no bomber solutions were possible. For the latter, it's likely a backroute, particularly since I don't collect all the pickups. I guess despite that, it does go to show that it is possible to save 71, which I suspect is the maximum possible for the level, but only via a backroute, showing that it's apparently faster this way. Just barely though.

I definitely look forward to your future level packs, especially with the two currently in development, once you do return to working on them at some point. Not sure if we're long overdue for a status update on them? Of course, no hurry!

[Strato Incendus]

Yes, this pack has received quite a lot of attention in just the single year it's been out. I guess my "marketing in advance" with the regular development updates did its part.

At the same time, that has also been the reason why I haven't been faster with level creation on the other two packs currently in the works (Lemmings: Hall of Fame and Lemmings, Drugs, & Rock 'n Roll). I myself had forgotten that it's only been a year since LOA came out - it feels like it has been out for ages. But given that it was in the making for two years, that means it still hasn't been out as long as it took me to make it. Maybe your "revival" of this thread for the one-year anniversary will draw some new players to it now - as your level-solving commentary probably did, too.

Maybe I should focus on getting Pit Lems Remastered done first, since all those levels already exist. I also already converted them ages ago - I just need to bring them into a proper order and make sure all the solutions still work, after all the physics changes we've had in New Formats in the meantime. But making Pit Lems available for New Formats (replacing the radiation and slowfreeze levels with some select stuff from Paralems and Lemmicks) would give people something "new" to play in the meantime - at least new for anyone who has only ever known New Formats - without me having to make a bunch of brand-new levels first.

On your two solutions:

Spoiler

Loud 20 ("Bonfire"): This level has many backroutes that I've never been able to fix, so this is just another one. Nice new trick, though, cancelling a Fencer mid-stroke to allow the crowd to walk up a Stoner! Should work with Walkers and Jumpers just as well as with the Shimmier you used. Perhaps I'll make that part of an intended solution on a future level!

Hardcore 25 ("Wipe your a** with sandpaper"): That's actually a perfectly acceptable alternative solution; you still used close to all the skills, and had to send a lemming to the "toilet-paper roll".

[Swerdis]

It's been a while since I played Lemmings World Tour, the largest pack of levels which can be found here in the forums. I started playing this monster of a pack on April 17th in 2021 and finished it almost exactly five months later on September 18th. The pack had outstanding visuals and a relatively flat learning-curve - apart from a very harsh first rank which was meant to be a tutorial-rank, but went a bit over the top. I feel it's time to dedicate myself Strato's second pack which is much shorter, but lays emphasis -  at least that's what I have read - more on the puzzle aspect of the game. I will note down my progress here, that's what I do since several packs now - it's easier for me than writing a huge conclusion in the end when it's hard for me to remember the solution of every single level.

Spoiler

Soft

1 - I wanna know what Lemmings is

For a first level of a pack, this was at least a demanding one. As there is only one builder (like every other skill) it was quite clear where he has to go. I overlooked the blocker for some time - he was the starting point from which everything fell into its place then.

2 - Dreams are my reality

Only NeoLemmix-skills here and a one-of-everything with ten skills. This is a hard level which makes use of the stacker/stoner-trick to release the crowd. Could well be an early roadblock für novice players.

3 - Keep holding on

Can be tricky as well. A lot of things don't seem to work here with no construction and very sparse terrain-removing skills.

4 - This time

Much easier than the three levels before and therefore the first real breather.

5 - Diamonds are a Lem's best friend

This one took me a while. But that was only because I interpreted the arrows wrong. Which is my main point of criticism here. Due to the thin platforms, the direction of the arrows remains somewhat unclear. So I was sure I could not fence out the upper Lemmings. When I finally tried it and it worked, the rest of the level was easy.

6 - Fire escape

Nice one! Hardest part was to turn the Lemming around. I bashed into the steel first which worked - but then I was one basher short in the end. So the shimmier is needed there, the odd-shaped terrain gives another hint.

7 - Across the bridge of hope

With some basic knowledge about bridges and what can be done with them, this is quite an easy level. One-attempt-solve.

8 - A thousand miles

Horrible level. The solution is not too hard to figure out, but the execution is unnecessarily hard. There seems to be exactly one spot the bridges have to be placed. Took me forever, but not because the puzzle was so genius.

9 - Against all odds

Not an easy one. My solution feels a bit hackish and I didnt' think it could be working until the very end. Seems like this level is at least a little bit open-ended.

10 - Walk the line

For me a very hard one which caught me by surprise that early in the pack. That's mainly because it uses several pretty uncommon techniques such as the way the second stoner und the second shimmier are brought into play. The glider is more irritating than useful, though. Good level!

11 - Call me maybe

Nice one. A bit easier than the level before, but still demanding. I initially thought the disarmer had to shimmy the entire way, over the top of the crowd to the left and then float down. But it turned out to be impossible due to the narrowness of the fencer tunnel.

12 - Mr Sandlem, give me a dream

Another pretty good one. It's clear where the bridge and the platform have to go, so a way has to be found to do the rest of the level without these skills. Again, a shimmier has to be used creatively.

13 - Lemming in chains

Tricky level, though the basic idea is relatively easy to grasp. Biggest problem was bashing through the bricks above the entrance in such a way that the basher later can climb up the wall left by sealing the gap with one stacker only.

14 - Always look on the bright side of life

Hard one, but that was mainly because I tried desparately to make my way up at the wrong spot (beneath the exit). It was a typical case of being one skill short - instead of reconsidering the entire strategy I thought I could compensate it somehow - but I couldn't.

15 - Both sides now

Very unorthodox solution here as this was certainly not intended. I watched Kaywhyn assigning the shimmiers to their actual purpose while mine doing nothing like that.

16 - I need a dollar

Way easier than the levels before in my opinion though it was still a bit tricky to isolate a pioneer. By thy way, I don't really see the purpose of the blocker and the pick-up-walker. The level would not be worse without these.

17 - Don't give up

Feels a bit hackish, but I think this is kind of an open-ended level that offers a variety of solutions. Kaywhyn proved that there is a more elegant way.

18 - Great balls of fire

Easy one and another backroute. I saved all here and spared the fencer and the digger.

19 - Hunting high and low

Nice, but not overly complicated level. Hardest thing was to release the crowd. Finally it dawned on me that the final platform doesn't have to cross the gap completely - sorry for the pioneer.

20 - My life would suck without you

This one was not so hard to figure out. The entire pack is very focused on the shimmier-skill so far and this level is no exception. At this point I'm used to its versatility, so this level was a much quicker solve as it would have been earlier on.

21 - Paradise

Ah the good old building into terrain to turn a Lemming around celebrates its resurrection. The start of the level is a bit tricky as only four bridges are allowed to isolate a pioneer and trap the crowd. The other problem was to turn the glider around, but that was only since I didn't see for a while that the skill must be assigned before the shimmier lands on the ground.

22 - No roots

Harder than I thought. Didn't see for quite some time that I could stop the digger with the blocker. That was the final piece of the mosaic to get the level solved.

23 - Don't worry, be happy

Easier than the one before in my opinion, but not trivial. This is a really good level since it offers many approaches from the beginning. Can be backrouted as kaywhyn proved.

24 - Still haven't found what I'm looking for

Nice use of the Dolly-Dimple-trick here, and using the shimmier just do delay a Lemming wasn't easy to see as well.

25 - This is a Lem's world

One of my favourites so far. It's really creative how the climbers must be trapped here. The rest isn't that hard - and I suppose the additional stacker is a Red Herring.

26 - Raindrops keep fallin' on my head

I thought this level would be a hard one due to the amount of skills, but it wasn't at all. Found it pretty straightforward, but attention has to be payed on the fencers as two are needed in the end.

27 - Lems in low places

A wild back and forth with the pioneer, but it's a level I really like. I wonder why the first shimmier doesn't shimmy to death by the way, but drops down instead.

28 - Ring of Fire

This one took a while as it required some precission. I finally managed to spare a bridge between the central pillar and the actual Ring of fire. Not one of my favourites, though.

29 - Money makes the world go round

Interesting level. I couldn't quite make it work with the pioneer only as he didn't hit the buttons while bashing the right crowd out. So I decided to free the left crowd first to have more Lemmings available that could help with the buttons. It worked - and I even spared two skills.

30 - Let's get loud!

Tricky level, but with several possible solutions. I used the Dolly Dimple trick here to isolate one Lemming while another worker goes the other way round.

All my solutions can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/@Swerdis

[kaywhyn]

As mentioned, I'll definitely be watching, as I was one of the pre-testers I know Strato will be too when he gets the opportunity and is able to. This will probably give him good reason to check my Lemmings: Hall of Fame replays for the final two ranks, as the plan is for me to do a few more rounds of resolving before he releases the pack sometime later in the year. It's nearly been half a year since I PMed my solutions to him, but that's because he's currently in the middle of moving house, which unfortunately means no time to check my solutions for backroutes and hence explains why there hasn't been an update for a while. He should almost be done with the housing stuff, but I've already told him no rush and just whenever he is ready to send me a new version

Anyway, I will be watching your solutions and of course reading your feedback!

[Strato Incendus]

This will probably give him good reason to check my Lemmings: Hall of Fame replays for the final two ranks, as the plan is for me to do a few more rounds of resolving before he releases the pack sometime later in the year.

I just thought of that today on my way home, hoping the Easter break will finally give me the time to.

Me thinking of this as Swerdis started playing Lemmings Open Air is just coincidence, though.

[Swerdis]

Took me much longer than I thought to solve the first rank, but this was not just because of the diffculty, but more due to some holiday-travel, illness and a thousand more things. I heard the second rank is easier though - which would be no surprise since this was the case with LWT as well. We will see...

Spoiler

Loud

1 - Wait till you see me dig, baby!

Annoying level to start with, but finally not as difficult as I thought. I'm personally not particularly good at levels with tons of the same skill.

2 - Lems just wanna have fun!

Fantastic level which wasn't easy to figure out. Didn't see that the one-way-arrows on the small pillars in the middle don't reach the top. Also, miner cancelling another miner normally isn't my cup of tea, but here at least it wasn't too hard to execute.

3 - Heaven is a place on Earth

Tried the same thing like Kaywhyn at first, but couldn't make it work. This was because I didn't see that the Lemmings could reach the ceiling (to shimmy) from the place next to the bomber's hole. I bashed at first so I had no basher left to deter one Lemmings from marching to the right in the end. But I found a different solution which made the shimmiers obsolete.

4 - Wake me up when September ends

Can be challenging since the tricks used here are not really intuitive. That's especially true for the blocker-turning-a-digger-around thing. However, I was familiar with it, Flopsy used it here and there in SEB Lems.

5 - When I come around

Ingenious level, one of my favourites so far. First I thought it would be a breather, but I was totally wrong. Very nice play with the expectations of the player - for the most obvious approach will be a road to nowhere in the end.

6 - Notice me, Lempai!

Easier than the previous ones though some precision is needed. The placement of the walker is crucial - otherwise there are not enough builders left.

7 - Touch the hand of a Lem

Just messed around here a bit and made a precision landing - knowing that this is by no means intended.

8 - Red rain

Interesting level with nice mechanics. Got the talisman here though I didn't intentionally go for it (what I never do). Since kaywhyn found more or less the same solution I wonder where this one Lemming is supposed to die. 

9 - Born to be wild

Basic concept is quite clear here. As in many cases, the hardest part was the beginning. The final platform is pretty precise since the pioneer must not turn around, but also has to take care that the crowd is able to step on it.

10 - Viva la vida

Very nice level which wasn't too hard to figure out. I especially like the way the stacker is used here.

11 - One moment in time

Backrouted this level most likely - but different from Kaywhyn. Saved three skills.

12 - You can't always get what you want

Breather level. It's all about stopping the pioneer. In the first case, a sweet spot has to be found to make him stop in the hole. In the second case he can be stopped either by letting another Lemming bash, making him turn around in the basher's tunnel or - as in my case - by bashing into the steel block.

13 - The number of the Beast

The beginning is quite tricky here since the pioneer must not be able to climb over the starting block after he freed the crowd. I saved some skills so it's probably not quite intended.

14 - Fallen leaves

A pretty straightforward level. When solving it, I had a feeling this one could probably be open ended. I've seen Kaywhyn using the stackers in the end, but I didn't make use of them at all, for example.

15 - Reach for the stairs

Really hard level, definitely the hardest of the rank so foa. I knew I had to shimmy along the bridges, but I just couldn't find a way to get low enough for a long time. Having overcome this obstacle, the rest was easy.

16 - We didn't start the fire

Look harder than it actually is. The door opener is to jump into the right teleporter with the shimmier since he keeps on doing this after the release and can reach the miner pick-up later.

17 - Stand by me

A favourite of mine. I've got a sweet spot for 2-Lemmings-level anyway and this one is no exception. Nice idea with the blocker-placement.

18 - Lems, Lems, Lems

Hard level which is all about timing. The interim goal is to create a working circlewalk for the crowd so that the pioneer is able to prepare the rest of the path alone. But that's not easy to achieve, though.

19 - Twist and shout

Challenging one, at least. I' not too fond of this one since the solution lies pretty much on the table, but the execution was a real pain. Maybe it was my fault since I shouldn't have increased the release-rate to the max.

20 - Bonfire

A very backroute-prone level to what I have read (after solving). I think I backrouted it too though not as extreme as Kaywhyn did. Easier than the previous ones.

21 - I believe I can fly

Reminds me of the Troll-rank of Casualemmings. Didn't realize they were instant swimmers at first, but even after that, this took a long time. Don't like this level for I think it makes more use of a glitch than of the intended Lemmings-mechanics. Or are they supposed to swim in no water? I'm not really sure.

22 - Three times a Lemming

Found this trick by accident, but it seems I'm not the only one. A blocker-centristic level which can be quite easy, depending on the knowledge of the player about blocker-behaviour.

23 - Everything I do (I do it for Lemmings)

Challenging level. The main-trick requires a lot of precision, I also wasn't sure if the shimmer dies at the ceiling (he doesn't). The end doesn't feel very elegant due to the position of the rightmost trap which made the mining-part a bit tricky.

24 - Stop crying your heart out

Pretty ingenious level, especially the placement of the stacker. It's not clear from the beginning which skill goes where, they seem interchangeable to some extent (but really aren't). I'm an advocate for entropy-strong level like this one.

25 - With a little help from my Lems

A complete breather, but that's only because I backrouted it. At least I think I did.

26 - Euphoria

I don't like this level from a visual perspective, but it's easier than it looks and a great puzzle. I especially enjoyed the miner continuing his work after teleportation.

27 - November rain

Easiest level in the rank thus far. Don't know what's really intended here, especially with the bomber.

28 - In the bleak midwinter

Reminds me of a LWT-level. Nothing too hard here though it looks a bit confusing. Solved most of the level in clear-physics-mode therefore.

29 - You keep me hangin' on 

Outstanding level. The basic solution is not easy to grasp, really well-hidden. My only point of criticism would be that the execution must be very precise, but that's the nature of the subject in this case.

30 - Heavy cross 

Confuse-looking level with the upsidedown exit and actualy quite a tough nut to crack. This seems by no means intended as I have plenty of skills left - probably some Lemmings are supposed to swim to the left.

All my solutions can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/@Swerdis

[Strato Incendus]

Glad you enjoyed it! I hope the difficulty isn't as over-the-place as for Lemmings World Tour, since a) Lemmings Open Air underwent pre-release testing, Lemmings World Tour did not, and b) the levels were a little freer to move around the ranks, compared to the World-Tour levels, which were more thematically tied to the rank names.

[Swerdis]

Having played the first rank and the first levels of the second I would say that it's even a bit harder than LWT at this point of the pack. I like the level design better here since these are real puzzles, every level is a challenge. Unfortunately, progress is slow at the moment, but that's because of private issues - I'm optimistic to find more time in the near future. Still a lot of packs want to be played

[Strato Incendus]

No rush, take your time! Indeed, while thematically, this is a follow-up to Lemmings World Tour (referring to the song-based theme), in terms of level design philosophy, it's more of a continuation of Pit Lems. (Which I still have to finish remastering for New Formats... but first, I must focus on releasing Lemmings: Hall of Fame.)

Basically, don't be surprised not to see me a lot on the forums during the first half of the year - which is in fact for music reasons, too.

Usually, once the Eurovision season is over, my mind eventually frees up to circle back around to Lemmings again. I try not to use too many Eurovision song titles for Lemmings levels, since most of them aren't that well-known to the wider public. But Lemmings World Tour had a few, since that of course went nicely with the levels set in different countries around the globe. ("Ovo je Balkan", "Dziesma par laimi", "Waterloo" etc.) In Lemmings Open Air, meanwhile, I can only recall "Euphoria" off the top of my head. There's definitely going to be a few more ones in "Lemmings, Drugs, & Rock 'n Roll".

[Swerdis]

Yeah, I agree the LWT-theme suits really well to the Eurovision contest. I must admit I know hardly a song from there - that's not quite my kind of music, I'm a punk-rock-guy. That's why I liked the inclusion of the Dropkick Murphys ("Shipping up to Boston"). On the other side I was a bit irritated by "Ich und mein Holz", especially since I am German. This song is so terrible . But the level was a good one as far as I remember.

[Swerdis]

Loud-rank solved after quite some time. Generally spoken i found this rank harder than the previous one as it should be. Halfway through the pack right now, I expect a steep increase in terms of difficulty right now for the Heavy-rank cause that's what I heard about it. Let's see...I'm not always the quickest, but I'm tenacious.

Spoiler

Heavy

1 - Let me entertain you

Very easy level to start things off. Maximizing the Release-rate was key here for me.

2 - High tide

The rank begins quite gentle it seems. No problem here again. First level with a jumper if I'm not wrong, but the solution is easy to spot.

3 - What I've done

What a cruel end for the pioneer......Nice level, I like this one. But once again, not that hard.

4 - Needled 24/7

Fantastic level, it goes back and forth. First I thought I had to platform over the water pool, leading the crowd this way. But I couldn't gain height in the end, so I found the - what I think - intended solution.

5 - A change of seasons

Nice idea with the season, but as a level, I'm not too fond of this one. It's a typical example for a single-worker-level, but luckily it was pretty easy to solve.

6 - I believe in a thing called Lems

Next Jumper-level here. This is a very well-crafted level, I really like the solution and how everything falls into place. I could have saved a builder though by directly jumping onto the ceiling.

7 - I was made for loving you, Lemming

Hard level, full of mean things. The miner's treatment of the one-way-block was especially hard to see, but I already knew this tricky, fortunately.

8 - Hero

Of average difficulty I would say though I was a bit stupid here. Didn't see that I could easily bash through the left obstacle for quite some time and also tried to shimmy beneath the one-way cloud. Finally, I didn't use any shimmier.

9 - The evil that Lems do

A one-attempt-solve, the first in a very long time. Despite a bit easy, I really like this level. The jumper is a skill that suits me, in contrast to the stacker for example.

10 - Enter Sandman

Although I normally don't like spamming the same skill over and over again, I must admit that this is a very creative level. Like the song as well.

11 - Eight Of Swords

Not too difficult here, the trick to release the blocker is really neat. Immediately after solving I realized how to spare the second swimmer for the talisman. The crystal and rock tilesets blend well, this wasn't the first level I played with this combination.

12 - Burning the witches

I had my problems here, especially since there is no real way to trap the crowd. It's just a matter of timing plus the creative use of the shimmier we know from former levels. Since all skills are used I guess it's the intended solution.

13 - Let the bodies hit the floor

Zombie-level and a fun one. The title makes absolutely sense here.

14 - Still loving Lemmings

Easy, but nice one. I shortened the solution a bit by not going the long way around.

15 - Poison

The biggest problem here was to trap the crowd efficiently. Once done, this level wasn't that much of a problem, especially since it was quite obvious to see where the shimmiers have to go.

16 - Eruption

Very easy level which plays a bit like on rails. Almost a first-attempt solve. I like the released blocker becoming the new pioneer by turning him around in the fencer's tunnel.

17 - The bee

I read about this level being hard and, with this expectation in my mind, it wasn't as bad as I thought. Which does not mean that it's an easy one. There's a lot of precision required here and, at least in my solution, all of the provided skills have to be used. Also, this level look really good - the rock, the crystal and the honeycomb tileset blend together well.

18 - Chop Suey

Breather level. But maybe just because I did my best to severely backroute this one as I spared a ton of skills.

19 - Lems burst into fire

Weird solution here. A lot of improvisation, but at least I used all the given skills here. Basically a tricky level, but with some Strato signature moves, so nothing too hard, finally.

20 - The other side

Hard level, one of the hardest in the rank so far, no doubt about it. Especially stopping the fencer while still making it possible for the crowd to reach the exit was really really precise. Also, it took me long time to find a way through the one way all because of the little gap and the absence of construction skills.

21 - Tear down the walls

I had my problems here as well. Totally overlooked for a while that the ceiling can be shimmied. After realizing, the rest wasn't that bad anymore.

22 - Valkea joulu

Tricky one. Finally, a direct approach worked - going from the entrance to the exit with the crowd instead of doing the level backwards like so many times. The updrafts seemed to be purely cosmetic.

23 - Prayer of the refugee

I dig this one. Very nice cloner-trick in the beginning. Forcing the crowd into the pit while isolating a pioneer is the hardest part of the level - the rest is quite easy in my opinion.

24 - Paid in full

Hard, but fun one. It's actually a blueprint of how a level should be: always something to do, no downtimes and no solution which is visible from the first sight. I especially like the way the climber comes into play. Great work here!

25 - Come as you are

Much easier than the previous. The biggest question was where to start the long bridge to the exit as I originally didn't think that five bridges would be sufficient. But they are - as long as they are extended by one stacker.

26 - To Hell and back

Super-easy, but this is certainly not the way it should be done. I smell a major-backroute here.

27 - Wooden pints

Now this was a real challenge. With only one climber and one basher and miner each, every step had to be carefully considered. Finally, I used up every skill.

28 - Davidian

Nice and not overly difficult level. I think there are several solutions in detail that all share the same way to place the one and only bridge. Took me a while to figure this out.

29 - Les fleurs du mal

When I saw Kaywhyn's solution I asked myself why I didn't use compression method here. This would have made life much easier. So no wonder that my solution was very finicky, but at least I made it work.

30 - Hard Rock Hallelujah

Harder than it looked. I used up every skill here and I had severe builder-shortage for most of the time. Thought that I would need four to get the left crowd out of the pit - but when I had made it with three this meant level solved.

All my solutions can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/@Swerdis

[Strato Incendus]

Good job, Swerdis!

Yes, the first Jumper level isn't too difficult - it can't be, since this is the level that introduces the Jumper within LOA.
That's just what happens when a skill gets introduced in the middle of a pack's development:
All the levels from the first two ranks were already done, so rather than making one Jumper tutorial level on the first rank, and then never featuring it for the remainder of the first two ranks, I dedicated the first two ranks to the Shimmier (which was the first new skill LOA introduced, compared to World Tour). And only once the player knows all the main tricks with the Shimmier, the Jumper gets thrown into the mix.

"High tide" is a Jumper crash course, though, because it already requires pretty much all the things the Jumper can do. For someone potentially encountering this skill for the first time in LOA, that's still a lot to take in. Obviously, that's not the case if you've already played a bunch of other packs featuring the Jumper in the meantime. But as far as I recall, LOA was one of the first larger packs that came out shortly after the Jumper's introduction.

I was a bit irritated by "Ich und mein Holz", especially since I am German. This song is so terrible

Just wait until the (Baseball) Batter is introduced into SuperLemmix. Then I'll make a level called "Ich haue meinen Lemming mit dem Schläger auf ein Holzbrett"...

[Swerdis]

Just wait until the (Baseball) Batter is introduced into SuperLemmix. Then I'll make a level called "Ich haue meinen Lemming mit dem Schläger auf ein Holzbrett"...

Oh my God. I know the allusion...that's one level higher, indeed :-)

[kaywhyn]

Then I'll make a level called "Ich haue meinen Lemming mit dem Schläger auf ein Holzbrett"...

One problem, though. The maximum number of characters allowed in level titles is 40, and so some of this will get cut off

[Strato Incendus]

Does the character limit also still apply to SuperLemmix?

There were already a few song titles I had to shorten in the past, such as U2's "I still haven't found what I'm looking for".

In this case, I could just shorten this future one to "Ich haue meinen Lemming auf ein Holzbrett"...

[kaywhyn]

Yes

[Mobiethian]

I'm really enjoying the videos that you are putting up on YouTube. Excellent!

[Swerdis]

Now that the Heavy-rank has been fallen, it's time to go Hardcore. I still enjoy the pack very much, there are many clever puzzles here.

Spoiler

Hardcore

1 - Beneath a dying sun

What's this? A super-breather to start off. I would say this is one of the easiest levels in the entire pack.

2 - God hates us all

I was warned about this level of being one of the hardest of the rank and thus the pack. But it wasn't that bad I must say. It seems to be pretty open-ended as well as I have seen.

3 - The descent of Lem

Another easy level. Didn't use the two platformers, so my solution most likely isn't intended. Thought I had to mine somewhat in a zigzag-style between the blockers, but this wasn't the case.

4 - The Nexus

This one looked impossible at first since I thought the force fields are traps and therefore cannot be passed. But after I've seen where the three jumpers have to go, I worked out the solution piece for piece. Nice level.

5 - Blood God rising

The buttons make this one pretty tough. It seems to be a bit open-ended though as I've seen a variety of solutions here. Personally, I used the cloner just to fill up the crowd.

6 - Under a serpent sun

Easy level once the player is aware of the trick. Also, not trying to save anyone here is key.

7 - Viszlat Nyar

Repeat of Loud 4 and signifcantly harder than that one. I had huge problems here. First, I followed a totally wrong approach, and later there was so much optimization here that I finally saved one over the requirement. But it was a long road to the solution.

8 - Evisceration plague

Looks intimidating, but isn't at all. It's actually a fairly straightforward level as I saved the three crowds one by one, not simultaneously. I don't know if the swimmer is a red herring, but I didn't find a use for this skill.

9 - Forlorn skies

Quite obvious solution for a final-rank-level, but this is still a very nice one. The key skill here is the glider which must be assigned at the right point of time.

10 - Mass obliteration

A fun level to play! I was on the wrong track here since I thought I had to make the first Lemming from the left hatch a glider (because he's quicker than the swimmer). But it turned out that it had to be the opposite way (left: swimmer, right: glider) However, I waited with the assigning of the glider until the cloner-pickup had been collected. In the end, I saved way Lemmings more than needed.

11 - Charred remains

Well, this one probably wasn't quite intended since I simply delayed one of the Lemmings by letting him climb. Therefore, I spared some skills, especially the swimmer which should have come into play somehow.

12 - Crystal mountain

Nice level though a bit of a breather. I used two pioneers here, but other ways seem to be possible as well. Good visuals, too, the different tilesets blend well each other.

13 - Hordes of chaos

Another fairly easy level as well. Again, multiple ways are possible. I trapped the crowd with the stacker and let one Lemming do all the work.

14 - Mayhem with mercy

Favourite of mine. I like falling bombers. I solved this a little by accident as I thought the shimmier would shimmy to death along the arc. But when I saw at which spot he would land, I immediately knew what to do here.

15 - Open the gates

This is a pretty difficult level, mainly due to the beginning part which is quite complex. It seems logical to start the platform at the final pixel of the chain segment, but for some reason this doesn't work. The penultimate pixel has to be used to make the first Lemming who can't get an umbrella anymore safely land on the platform. And - as it turned out later - this was even important as otherwise the glider won't climb up the chain. And it must be the glider because only he can do the rest of the level and reach all the buttons.

16 - The pursuit of vikings

The art design of this level reminds me of GeoffLems, one of the first level-pack I played in NeoLemmix. Here, this is a quite straightforward level, almost a breather, as long as it's clear that it's possible to swim underneath the ship.

17 - Mourning palace

Heavy 20 rears it's ugly head, again. Thankfully, the successor is much easier, due to the miner which is a big help here. Still think, I cheesed it a bit.

18 - Chopped in half

Yeah, finally one of my favorite tricks finds the way in this pack. So this level has my sympathy anyway. I think this level can be something of a roadblock because two of the tricks here - this  and the other one (canceling the digger with a blocker) are not THAT well-known.

19 - Clockworks

Easy level. The start can be a bit tricky however, especially finding the sweet spot where to mine as the falling distance is just about splat height. Very nice-looking mix of two tilesets here.

20 - Symphony of destruction

Plain and simple: One of the hardest levels I ever played and certainly the hardest of the pack. However, the high degree of difficulty evokes from absolute precision and high traffic within small areas, not so much from the puzzle itself. Therefore I wouldn't count it to my favourite levels though it's still a pretty good (builderless) one.

21 - Circle of the tyrants

Trickier than I thought, especially the beginning part. I like how two Lemmings work together and prepare the path.

22 - The True Beast

A bit of a standard recipe here. Bringing a worker on the other side by a lot of jumping around and free the crowd from there. Not a bad level, though, and what makes it challenging are these tiny gaps in the tree trunks and especially the foliage.

23 - Nemesis

At first I thought that his level could become really hard. It looks kind of intimidating and I'm not particularly good at levels with a lot of stoners. But soon it dawned on me what to do, fortunately there are plenty of skills here.

24 - Fall from grace

Very hard level. Many way seem to be possible, but in fact, almost nothing works. As an example, it was difficult to decide what to do with the second Lemming. Make him jump? Make him stack? Finally, I made him block on the bridge which seemed to be the least likely possibility to work - but it did somehow.

25 - Wipe your ass with sandpaper

Not as complicated as it looks. It's actually quite clear what to do here. Used the cloner to contain the crowd with platformers. In the end I gave one Lemming a head start with a jumper to make him start the platform over the abyss before the others arrive.

26 - Make total destroy

I was told this level being hard and I was not disappointed. However it's a very nice one and there are even several ways to bring the crowd to the top. Good work here, Strato!

27 - The divine land

Actually, not an excessively hard lone. But I was a dummy here. Didn't see for a long time that I could free the crowd at an earlier point of time and then trap it again left of the one-way-block. This made a second pioneer necessary and that's how I solved the level. [/b]

28 - The puzzle

Ambitious title. It's not just a puzzle, it's THE puzzle However, I feel my solution is not the mother of invention as most likely both sides of the level have to be used. After some trial and error, I restricted myself on the right side only.

29 - When all is said and done

Ingenious level, one of my absolute favourite. Doesn't look so difficult, but it's really a tricky one. Main question is how to bring a Lemming to the side and it seems obvious to use a stoner/jumper/shimmier-combination there - which works. But then, the stoner is needed in the end - so something different must be done. Great level and probably backroute-proof.

30 - Hammer-smashed face

The final level of the pack was by no means an easy level. I was warned that the amount of skills is deceiving as they would run out quickly - and so it was. Lots of midstroke-interruptions of bashers by shimmiers to gain height - this is really a signature trick by Strato.

All my solutions can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/@Swerdis

[Strato Incendus]

Congrats for beating the Heavy rank, Swerdis! As said on YouTube, your solution to Hardcore 01 is a backroute, but I have no idea how to fix it without having "double one-way arrows" at my disposal...

[Swerdis]

Having started on March 17th, I brought Lemmings Open Air to the end today. The final four levels have alle been quite tricky - and I would crown Hardcore 29, along with Hardcore 26 as my level of the pack. The hardest one - and I'm in good company with this - was definitely Hardcore 20. I'm happy having played this pack. I already liked Lemmings World Tour, mainly for the visuals, but this one was a big step forward in terms of level design. So many great puzzles here. And I don't mind the old tilesets at all as they provide for clear und clean visuals.

I compared most of my solutions with other players like Kaywhyn or Eric and so I'm quite sure I backrouted some levels. Don't know if these will be fixed since it's not a new pack anymore, though. Some levels were probably intended to be open-ended as well. Thanks again, Strato, for having created this pack. It's still a big joy to play this game. I don' feel bored at all and there are still many packs out there that have to be played.

[kaywhyn]

@Swerdis

I already did so on Youtube, but I'll drop it off here in the topic as well. Congratulations on solving all of Lemmings Open Air and joining the short list of others who have done the same! I absolutely enjoyed following your videos throughout your entire quest to solve all of the pack. As usual, I continue to be amazed at some of the alternatives I saw and occasionally was surprised that I managed to miss a "cheesy" backroute or whatever I'm very happy to hear from you that you enjoyed this pack of Strato's Not only did I recommend LOA to you due to me being one of the pre-testers and me thinking the pack is excellent, but also I really did think you would enjoy this pack very much, which you did

Right now, Strato's focus is on getting Lemmings Hall of Fame ready for release, which as you know I'm currently doing some private pre-testing. I think once that pack is publicly released, Strato will go back through his earlier packs, including this one, and see what you managed to unveil with your solutions. So, his priorities are elsewhere right now, but don't worry, at some point he'll go through your LOA videos, if he hasn't done so for all of them already

[Strato Incendus]

Congratulations, @Swerdis, on beating the entire pack! And of course, thanks a lot for your kind words about it. 

As @kaywhyn pointed out, I still have some things to fix about Lemmings Hall of Fame — not just checking out kaywhyn's new replays, but also fixing my remaining replays that broke due to the shift to NeoLemmix 12.13. I'm more confident about this now, now that I know neither the Shimmier nor the Fencer changed, so that only levels featuring the (new) Slider should be affected by the shift to 12.13, not packs that preceded the introduction of the Slider, like Lemmings Open Air.