Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]  (Read 6088 times)

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Offline Strato Incendus

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[NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« on: November 28, 2020, 05:09:53 PM »
You may not be able to go to any real open-air festivals right now. And you're definitely not able to go to indoors concerts. But there is an alternative world where all human beings are 8 pixels large, and neither have to worry about infections... nor about how many of them die for other reasons. And in that world, open-air concerts are as possible as ever. ;)

After two years in the making, the follow-up to Lemmings World Tour is finally here!



You can download both the pack itself as well as the required add-on tileset in the attachments.
Please make sure to download this tileset, strato_generalmd, as well, because it adds some miscellaneous pieces that are required to make a couple of levels work.


The music pack is the same as for Lemmings World Tour. If you don't have it yet, you can get it here!
It features my self-recorded rock / metal versions of the original Lemmings and Oh No! More Lemmings music.
(This does not include ONML track 04, because I hate it :P , nor the "cross-promotion" tracks of Beast, Menace, and Awesome).



Lemmings Open Air aims to recreate the feeling of playing original Lemmings while at the same time using NeoLemmix skills and features, and sticking to NeoLemmix puzzle philosophy:

- The new skills Shimmier and Jumper are front and centre in this pack.
On the first two ranks, you will only have to deal with the Shimmier. And you might be glad about that, because these levels run the Shimmier through all its gears, and might possibly demand from you every last trick you can pull off with it. ;)
After that, the Jumper gets introduced on rank 3.

- A lot of levels make use of the expanded 10-slots skill panel.

- The tilesets are mainly the ones from original Lemmings and Oh No! More Lemmings, with a few levels in my two new custom tilesets of mine added. These should however blend nicely with the classic ones:

Autumn tileset:

Fallen leaves

Money tileset:

I need a dollar

Normally, there should be no need to re-download these two styles, since they have been part of the official styles download for a while now.



Lemmings Open Air has 120 levels, 30 for each of four ranks:
Soft, Loud, Heavy, and Hardcore


Just like in Lemmings World Tour, all the levels are named after songs.
However, in reference to the famous metal festival that is Wacken Open Air, the tracks are not ordered by how famous the songs are (as it was the case in Lemmings World Tour).
Instead, they increase in order of "heaviness", starting with largely soft pop songs and ballads and ending with the most brutal death metal ever known to Lemkind. ;)

The title "Open Air" was also chosen because, after Lemmings World Tour, this was the first pack I started developing for New Formats - where the ceiling is no longer solid, but "open" and thus deadly. ;) This is also referenced by one of the later levels in the pack, which was however one of the first levels I made for it, called "Forlorn skies".

Because this is a follow-up to Lemmings World Tour, even though stylistically very different, the pack expects you to know all of the tricks that especially the first two ranks of Lemmings World Tour taught you.

Of course, if you already know a lot of tricks and consider yourself an experienced player, feel free to try this even if you haven't played Lemmings World Tour yet
- it's quite a huge bite to swallow, after all.
But don't be surprised if this pack hits you out of nowhere with something you might not know yet... ;-)


SOFT
Just the first two levels have all 18 skills that were available at that time (i.e. minus the Jumper) crammed into them. It's the fastest crash-course possible in NeoLemmix. And immediately after that, you're shoved out on stage and have to deliver! ;) The songs on this rank may be fairly easy-going, but that doesn't necessarily mean the levels will be, as well...

Don't worry, be happy

Always look on the bright side of life

LOUD
Going into slightly harder territory now. Here you will find the occasional punk / rock band, and for the ballads on this rank, they're usually already power ballads, with a little more "oomph" to them. Be prepared to use the Shimmier in all kinds of non-obvious ways!

Born to be wild

November rain

HEAVY
The Jumper gets introduced on level 2. Be prepared to have it interact with the Shimmier right from the start! After all, whether the songs are glam rock or classic old-school heavy metal, we want to see all those lemming hands up in the air! ;)

I believe in a thing called Lems

Poison

HARDCORE
These puzzles will wrench your mind as much as their titles will wrench your guts :evil: . The song titles will become less and less known as I've dredged them from the darkest depths of the Hell dimension. It's pretty much all Death- or Black Metal at this point. The final level is named after an absolute classic of the genre.

Chopped in half

Symphony of destruction


In stark contrast to Lemmings World Tour, the levels in this pack are largely abstract shapes, not specific locations or "realistic-looking" objects. The focus is on the mechanical challenge first, aesthetics come second. If the levels are pretty, that will usually just mean a nice mix of colours. ;)

However, I've put my two very artistic Christmas levels in here (that don't actually make a lot of use of the Christmas tileset). So it feels just fitting to release this pack at the end of November.

Also, there are a few levels which were hard to completely backroute-fix despite extensive testing.
Interestingly enough, though, one level that is known to have backroutes available still managed to stump one of my testers. :thumbsup:
Thus, when even the "unfixable" backroutes are hard to find, you know you've got a difficult pack on your hands! ;)

Many thanks to Armani, kaywhyn, and Flopsy for pre-release testing, as well as nin10doadict (and again Armani) for early testing!
Also thanks to Nepster for introducing the Shimmier, to namida for introducing the Jumper, and obviously to both of them for creating and maintaining New-Formats NeoLemmix. ;)


And with that, I declare this festival open! ;)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2020, 03:52:57 PM by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: 3 (Advanced) - 6 (Legend)]
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2020, 06:22:20 PM »
Congratulations on the release of your 4th 5th pack, Strato! :thumbsup: And I can see that you already managed to make use of the proposed difficulty scale. I can agree with the range of difficulty you attached to your pack ;)

Really, I can say that it was a huge honor to be a pre-tester for your pack. Other than Icho's contest #21 levels, which I also pretested, your LOA pack would be the very first pack that I have ever pre-tested. A lot of tough nuts in here, but I can highly recommend this well-done, excellent pack! :thumbsup: Also, lots of well-done and very artistic levels, especially in the money tileset :thumbsup: Do note that it's definitely more difficult on average and Strato's definitely pulling no punches here. Right out the gate the difficulty already starts high, so even the first rank Soft is no pushover. Still, I don't think that'll be enough to deter anyone in playing this pack.

Because this is a really well-done pack IMO, I really wish I could LP this, but I can't because I was a pre-tester. I definitely enjoyed myself with the pack while I pre-tested. Generally, when I have built up a lot of momentum, I tend to keep it going rather than stop playing the pack and leaving it untouched for a while.

This being said, I'm looking forward to seeing the solutions of others. Good luck and have fun! :) 
« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 07:35:06 PM by kaywhyn »

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: 3 (Advanced) - 6 (Legend)]
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2020, 07:24:09 PM »
Thanks a lot for your kind words, kaywhyn! :thumbsup:

Actually, it's already my 5th pack (Paralems, Pit Lems, Lemmicks, Lemmings World Tour, and now Lemmings Open Air). ;)

And yeah, I've already thought about the fact that most likely, this pack won't see a Let's Play. Because you've already tested it extensively, namida doesn't do LPs anymore, as far as I know, and it will most likely be too difficult for Arty and Flopsy (and Flopsy has also taken part in testing). I'm not sure if nin10doadict still does LPs, but as far as I remember, Lemmings World Tour already gave him a more than sufficient challenge ;) .

A couple of the more experienced players used to do somewhat irregular live streams on Twitch in the past (Nessy, Wafflem, Simon and others). They played many of the classics on those (NepsterLems, PimoLems, Quest from Kieran 2...). Usually, these are such adept level solvers that they can beat an entire pack in one or two sessions. So who knows, maybe one of them might be curious enough to try that one day. ;)

The main upside of LPs is that you can judge more easily how difficult a level is in terms of "how long does the player have to think about the solution before finding it?" The successful replay files you get at the end are only the end result, but that only tells you so much about how long it took.

This was especially confusing during testing, because sometimes when there were a lot of leftover skills, that made me think the level was too easy - when in fact that can still mean the player struggled quite a bit before being able to solve the level at all. I'm currently playing SEB Lems once more, and I've been noticing that on several levels there ;) .

But first of all, I'm mainly just curious to see who can beat this pack at all. :D No matter if "live" or in regular replays.

I definitely have faith in the other people who beat Lemmings United, e.g. joshescue, and of course IchoTolot himself. Nepster also, if he were still around. He implemented the Shimmier, after all, so he must have done quite a bit of testing himself for its mechanics, which is why I'd assume he knows all the tricks you can do with it. (Except that gliding onto a stack from a Reacher is no longer possible since the physics change, which was implemented by namida.) And yeah, of course, namida himself should be able to beat it... but I assume our constant input about the new skills is keeping him more than busy right now :D ...
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: 3 (Advanced) - 6 (Legend)]
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2020, 07:32:08 PM »
Actually, it's already my 5th pack (Paralems, Pit Lems, Lemmicks, Lemmings World Tour, and now Lemmings Open Air). ;)

Oh, right! I totally forgot about Lemmicks :forehead: Also, if I'm not mistaken, the only other person to have released more than 5 packs is namida. Everyone else seemed to have released just a pack or two for NL.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: 3 (Advanced) - 6 (Legend)]
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2020, 07:56:38 PM »
Congratulations to the release, Strato. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

One thing: What does Difficulty: 3 (Advanced) - 6 (Legend) mean in comparison to the normal ratings of the other packs ???

Maybe simply calling it Medium - Hard would fit better so it's in line with most of the rest. ;)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: 3 (Advanced) - 6 (Legend)]
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2020, 10:36:49 PM »
Thanks, IchoTolot! ;)

The difficulty descriptions in the title, as kaywhyn correctly identified, are taken from WillLem's suggestions for difficulty ratings. I used them because he proposed them as a unified terminology for the entire forum.

Therefore, if there are some other, more established terms to describe pack-difficulty ranges, I'll be happy to change them! ;)

But currently it still seems to me as if everyone chooses whatever descriptions they want. ??? You might remember, a while ago I asked what "Sunsoft difficulty" means, because some people were still describing the difficulty of their ranks in terms of Fun through Mayhem and then up to Sunsoft. When in reality, most custom packs are far more difficult than original Sunsoft, even on the early ranks.

Medium to Hard might be fitting, though it sounds to me like a more limited range. You described Lemmings United as "hard to extreme". I honestly don't know whether this pack goes all the way up to "extreme", i.e. to levels of difficulty that might be on par with some stuff from United. You're probably the best person to judge that. ;)

I would think that "If kaywhyn and Armani struggled with some of these levels, I guess that means yes". But by now I've watched quite a few episodes of kaywhyn's Lemmings Migration LP, and I've understood that even an adept level solver can occasionally get stumped by packs that aren't considered horrendously difficult as a whole. ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: 3 (Advanced) - 6 (Legend)]
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2020, 10:58:23 PM »
Quote
I would think that "If kaywhyn and Armani struggled with some of these levels, I guess that means yes". But by now I've watched quite a few episodes of kaywhyn's Lemmings Migration LP, and I've understood that even an adept level solver can occasionally get stumped by packs that aren't considered horrendously difficult as a whole.

You would be surprized how fast you can struggle, but the better question is What does "struggle" mean. ???  I would define it as taking several hours to solve something and that 100% can happen even in Medium packs in my case.

For comparison, I would rank "Lemmings World Tour" as Medium. As I could breeze through most parts without much difficulty, while struggling on some levels. As an example, I found "MegSEGAbytes" more difficult and that's a "Medium-Hard" one.

If this is a step up and I would struggle on some more I would put it in "Medium-Hard" and if it has multiple levels stumping me for days then "Hard-Extreme".

If kaywhyn and Armani were stuck on quite a few levels for some days/weeks then definitly write "Hard-Extreme"! For comparison, this was the case on quite a few United levels.

But it's the easiest if they can just quickly post in here what gave them more trouble and how they would rate it as I haven't played it yet. :P

Quote
But currently it still seems to me as if everyone chooses whatever descriptions they want.

You can see almost all packs just use Easy- Medium - Hard - Extreme in the topic's title. (And Beginner for the Intro Pack ;))

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: 3 (Advanced) - 6 (Legend)]
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2020, 11:34:53 PM »
Medium to Hard might be fitting, though it sounds to me like a more limited range. You described Lemmings United as "hard to extreme". I honestly don't know whether this pack goes all the way up to "extreme", i.e. to levels of difficulty that might be on par with some stuff from United. You're probably the best person to judge that. ;)

Definitely not extreme. The longest I've been stumped on any level of your LOA pack was about 1-1.5 hours, and it was one of the Hardcore levels, a fire level to be exact. Armani also found it to be very hard. Not only was it hard, when my solution kept failing due to what I believe might be a lot of pixel precision, I eventually started raging.

For comparison, I would rank "Lemmings World Tour" as Medium. As I could breeze through most parts without much difficulty, while struggling on some levels. As an example, I found "MegSEGAbytes" more difficult and that's a "Medium-Hard" one.

I agree with your assessment of the difficulty for LWT, while I can't speak for MegSEGAbytes since I haven't played it yet, though I eventually will. For LWT, when I was giving Strato feedback, I echoed a lot of the feedback you gave him. For example, I agree with you that the difficulty of the Noisemaker rank, the first rank, is all over the place and is quite harsh in several places, while Amateur, the second rank, isn't as scattered. After the first two ranks, I breezed through most levels very easily, while there were some levels that I ended up struggling with for quite a while, especially in the Legend rank. Also, the final level, The Grand Puzzle, also took me about an hour.

Quote
If this is a step up and I would struggle on some more I would put it in "Medium-Hard" and if it has multiple levels stumping me for days then "Hard-Extreme".

If kaywhyn and Armani were stuck on quite a few levels for some days/weeks then definitly write "Hard-Extreme"! For comparison, this was the case on quite a few United levels.

You're pretty much spot on with Medium - Hard. Or even Medium - Very Hard can work too. As mentioned above, both Armani and I had a really difficult time with a particular fire level in Hardcore. I'm not sure how long it took him, but the level took me about 1-1.5 hours. That's the longest I've been stuck on any level in LOA, so definitely not extreme like United. That being said, Hard - Extreme is very appropriate for United, as you will recall several levels took me weeks/months. Even more that it took me exactly 1 year to solve the entire pack. Yes, you read right Strato, 1 year.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: 3 (Advanced) - 6 (Legend)]
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2020, 11:54:02 PM »
Quote
The longest I've been stumped on any level of your LOA pack was about 1-1.5 hours

Then I would say "Medium-Hard".

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Medium - Hard]
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2020, 12:05:23 AM »
Alright, difficulty description changed! ;) Thanks for your input, guys! :thumbsup:

I'm glad to hear you consider LWT Medium difficulty, since that's precisely what it was designed to be: A "filler" and intermediate step for the gap between beginner and expert content. Now we have more packs in this difficulty range, of course, but at the time of its creation, LWT was one of the few.

Quote
Yes, you read right Strato, 1 year.

Wow. I guess IchoTolot has made the Holy Grail of level packs then! :D I remember some user (who was comparatively new at that time, I think?) uttering his ambitions to create a pack that even our most skilled solvers would take one year to solve. And the other forum members replied along the lines of "good luck, IchoTolot, Nepster, and namida are pretty good at this game" :evil: . But of course, that didn't include the possibility of IchoTolot himself making a pack that took other users one year or more to solve...


But for the moment, I'm just happy to see how many people have already downloaded the pack within just a couple of hours :lem-mindblown: . Looks like building the anticipation for two years really paid off! :D

So thanks a lot and good luck to all who are playing at the moment! ;) Feel free to post your replays, no matter how far you get.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2020, 12:24:47 AM »
Quote
But for the moment, I'm just happy to see how many people have already downloaded the pack within just a couple of hours :lem-mindblown: . Looks like building the anticipation for two years really paid off!

Most visitors are silent here and don't have an account. Right now there are 60+ people here.

As I always say: Most impact from everything on here is silent and you will never know of it. ;P   This is an excellent example of that silent majority being recognizable!

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Medium - Hard]
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2020, 02:13:01 AM »
I remember some user (who was comparatively new at that time, I think?) uttering his ambitions to create a pack that even our most skilled solvers would take one year to solve. And the other forum members replied along the lines of "good luck, IchoTolot, Nepster, and namida are pretty good at this game" :evil: . But of course, that didn't include the possibility of IchoTolot himself making a pack that took other users one year or more to solve...

I remember this too! I don't remember who or which pack it is, if it ever was named at the time, but I remember reading this, at a time when I was still visiting the site and reading these posts silently in the background :P

Offline Armani

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2020, 02:18:55 PM »
Congratulation from me as well :thumbsup:
It was very fun and good time testing LOA.

It was the first custom pack I've pretested for me as well except for several contest levels.
I haven't play Strato's other packs so I can't compare difficulty of LOA to his other packs, but I think LOA is a quite difficult pack even in current custom level scene of the forum.
Even levels from the first rank are not simple after two tutorial levels.

It's the first custom pack featuring both shimmier and jumper as far as I know.(I could be wrong here.) So if you are a big fan of these fancy new skills, this is the pack you should play. :thumbsup:

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2020, 05:04:55 PM »
Even levels from the first rank are not simple after two tutorial levels.

I don't consider the first two levels tutorials at all. At least not in the sense that they teach anything in regards to what the skills do. Yes, they're great 1-of-everything levels, but they certainly aren't tutorials. I think we're all in agreement that this pack is certainly not for beginners, as I did mention that the levels already start off difficult right out the gate.

Offline WouterSmits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2020, 05:42:19 PM »
how an i beat first level what iv do its inposseble
everything one
you need to dig
i need 3 builders to do

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2020, 05:48:18 PM »
Hey WouterSmits, don't overcomplicate this one. It's definitely possible and a lot easier than you think. If possible, send a replay so that Strato or anyone else who has passed it can see why and where you're getting stuck and could possibly help you to solve it. To save a replay, press U at any time while you're playing the level.

Offline WouterSmits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2020, 06:22:42 PM »
heres replay

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2020, 06:24:47 PM »
You almost got it! There's one skill at the very end that you're not placing correctly that's causing you to think you need more builders. See if you can figure it out ;)

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2020, 06:33:41 PM »
yes, i solved the 1st 2 levels, and yes I don't think they're tutorials at all,

Anyways here are my 2 soft levels(1 and 2), Got the Talisman for level 1.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 06:39:26 PM by ericderkovits »

Offline WouterSmits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2020, 06:49:06 PM »
Good job thanks i can continue

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2020, 06:52:01 PM »
Quote
You may not be able to go to any real open-air festivals right now. And you're definitely not able to go to indoors concerts.

*laughs in New Zealand-ese*

Offline WouterSmits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2020, 07:15:03 PM »
heres replay 3rd level with 4 talisman
ive beated

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2020, 07:31:34 PM »
ok here are the next 3 beat 3,4 and 5. Got talisman for 4

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2020, 07:44:27 PM »
Thanks for playing, WouterSmits and ericderkovits! ;)

Everything is as intended so far, except, eric's solution for Soft 05, which is a valid alternative one (i.e. uses all the skills, not a backroute, just not the way I solved it :D ).

And indeed, even the first two levels are not meant to be tutorial levels. Or at least not more so than the "Crash Course" levels from SEB Lems. ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WouterSmits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2020, 07:48:12 PM »
beated level 5+6 
all skills used
no backroute

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2020, 08:07:03 PM »
Also, if you noticed, Soft 1 is a 1-of-everything level with just the 8 classic skills, while Soft 2 is a 1-of-everything level using only NL skills except for the jumper, which will be introduced in the third rank. It's also the very first one in the pack that makes use of the full 10 skill panel. I guess one thing I forgot to point out is my experience playing levels with a full 10 skill panel. I say the difficulty varies depending on the level, like most things, but the fact that you can have 2 extra skills can definitely up the difficulty considerably.

Nice to see a lot of takers on the LOA pack already. Your choice of releasing the pack on the weekend was wise indeed, Strato! :thumbsup: Not to mention the 2 years in the making and the build up of anticipation leading up to the release ;) Just a word of advice to the players, and that is you don't have to, but I generally only post replays after I get through an entire rank. After what took several hours to write the entire feedback for Strato's other pack Paralems, I'm definitely not doing that again, finishing an entire pack first and then posting replays/very detailed feedback on almost every single level. Instead, depending on how long each rank is, I will either post all my replays after I finish a rank or when I get to the halfway point. Or, more rarely, whenever I feel like it, which is what I think most players do anyway :P

And remember, if you get stuck, feel free to ask Strato or anyone who has passed the level for a hint(s), and we'll do what we can to help ;)

Offline WouterSmits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2020, 08:33:08 PM »
i cant get past this

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2020, 08:39:58 PM »
Well, imagine my shock... :evil: Soft 07 is precisely what I expected to be the first road block.

First hint (Soft 07) (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WouterSmits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2020, 08:43:10 PM »
still dont understand

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2020, 08:52:07 PM »
Second hint (Soft 07) (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2020, 09:03:57 PM »
Indeed, when I pre-tested the pack, I struggled for a good 10 minutes with Soft 7 and thought this level is a huge step up in difficulty and definitely will be for less experienced players. The first part wasn't the problem, but the second part I thought was difficult, but that's likely because I ended up inflicting a lot of extreme pixel precision.

You can do this! Just don't give up.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2020, 09:10:59 PM »
Ok, I solved 7, this one was just a matter of timing. I didn't even notice your hints until I solved it. I just knew it was a timing one.

Anyways here is my replay for soft 7

Yes the first part was easy, the 2nd part was tricky to get the lead lemming far enough away from the pack like Strato said

EDIT: Oh, I forgot my soft 6, here it is then

UPDATE: Ok I solved it without timing, but builder mechanics. included this replay too
« Last Edit: November 30, 2020, 12:29:09 AM by ericderkovits »

Offline WouterSmits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2020, 09:20:09 PM »
thanks eric
thanks to you i understanted

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2020, 09:29:45 PM »
Little to no timing is needed for Soft 7. All that's needed is knowledge of builder mechanics, especially since it's a builders only level. Now I'm curious about Soft 8 and 9. The former should be obvious, but admittedly it's annoying to execute. On the other hand, the latter was a roadblock for me, and I apparently ended up solving it differently from Strato's. Not pulling any punches at all, am I right? This pack is definitely not for beginners!

In any case, let's wait until there are close to a complete or a full rank of replays before posting, as the last several posts have been nothing but 1-3 replays at a time. Also, don't be afraid to struggle with the pack. As Strato and I have already warned, it's not an easy pack at all.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2020, 11:16:59 PM »
ok, level 8 here.

This level reminds me of Queztalings in Framlems. The precision is just too high. Although the solution is easy. Everything had to be in the exact spots.

Anyways here is my level 8 solution replay.


Ok, and from this level on I will post when and if I complete the rank.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2020, 11:34:32 PM »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2020, 02:10:00 AM »
Okay, taking a look at this.


Feedback for Soft 1 to 10 (click to show/hide)

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2020, 02:27:44 AM »
@namida - Yes, thank you for doing this! Several levels and replays, instead of just 1 or a few at a time over and over like the last several posts :P Regarding your feedback, 100% agree with almost all of it, especially Soft 7 and Soft 8.

update: Ok, I just watched your Soft 9 replay and I definitely like your solution far better than mine. I overcomplicated it and even did something fancy with a fencer assignment and taught Strato something :crylaugh:
« Last Edit: November 30, 2020, 02:35:16 AM by kaywhyn »

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2020, 10:24:58 AM »
ok here are my soft 1-11 replays. currently stuck on 12.

Soft 10 I managed to solve without using the glider

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2020, 04:14:14 PM »
Responses to ericderkovits (click to show/hide)

Quote
Okay, taking a look at this.

... and the grand master himself is here! Thanks a lot for taking the time to do this, namida! :thumbsup:

Responses to namida (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2020, 10:33:06 PM »
Is there a way to turn that rain effect off? Turning off background images doesn't turn it off. I find the levels with this on actually unplayable, even looking at it for half a minute was enough to give me a mild headache.
I'm finding this fun otherwise though!

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2020, 11:34:21 PM »
The fact that you're asking about rain objects gives me an idea of how far you've already progressed into the pack... ;) I can't say I'm surprised though, that you got this far so quickly - given that the pack you were working on, Lemmings Evolution, was also expected to be one of the most difficult ones out there.

If the rain is distracting you or actively causing you health issues (do we need an epilepsy warning on levels featuring certain objects now? :D ) - well, you could always open the level file and delete all instances of the rain object... either in the text file or by opening it in the editor. ;)

I know it's a bit of a hassle, but that's one of the great advantages about the New Formats, with the loose levels files being the same ones that are actually being used in the game. No more "loose level file first, then compiled into a pack" etc. You could change anything you want about a level before you play it: Sprites, background, music...

Of course, that also allows to modify a level to make it easier to play, but I think everyone here on the forums understands that they're just fooling themselves if they "cheat" that way :D .

Assuming that you'll want to modify the level files, which are ordered in the folders alphabetically by name, not by rank and level number, I'm just giving you the titles of the levels that contain rain objects, so that you can edit them all in one swoop:


Levels with precipitation ;D (click to show/hide)

Quote
I'm finding this fun otherwise though!

Thanks a lot, great to hear! :thumbsup:
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2020, 11:39:36 PM »
It's not a serious health issue I just get headaches easily :P

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2020, 11:40:07 PM »
^ It would be far less effort to just blank out the PNG file of the rain object. ;)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2020, 11:48:27 PM »
Little did namida know that I have actually used several different rain objects in different colours... :P

Guess what, on a level called "Red rain", the rain will be... red. That's part of my strato_generalmd tileset. And Lemmings World Tour had "Purple rain", for eponymous reasons. ;)

And for the regular rain, I sometimes used the one from Arty's new special tileset, sometimes his older version of the standard rain object, which I had integrated into my strato_generalmd tileset. The reason for that is that the new rain is more transparent, but also more "shaky", which actually makes it more distracting to me sometimes than the old version of the rain object with full opacity.

So Gronkling would have to blank all rain objects in his styles folders. They should only be in arty_special and strato_generalmd at this point... however, I remember that for a while, the rain object had been moved to namida's Sky tileset. I don't think it's there anymore, though. I think I recall that I had to change those references in the level files after an update.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2020, 02:39:03 AM »
I attached my replays for the first rank! Very fun pack so far

Level feedback
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2020, 09:17:22 AM »
Continuing on...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Overall, I definitely would not call this pack "medium" difficulty-wise. Even these first-rank levels are very hard.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2020, 12:20:06 PM »
Thanks a lot for all your enthusiasm, folks! :thumbsup: The first version was downloaded by a whopping 48 people. This far exceeds any hopes and expectations I had for this pack!

Now that count has been reset to 0, because I've uploaded the first minor update, with just two small fixes / changes based on Gronkling's solutions.

Changelog (click to show/hide)



It's fascinating to see how much the individual perception of difficulty differs.
There seems to be some consensus that Soft 07 is quite hard, and a lot of people don't enjoy Soft 08 (if it comforts you, I tried to enforce that trick on several levels, and this one seems to be the only one where you actually have to do it - but the level doesn't really consist of anything else aside from the main trick, so it's over quickly :P ).

However, as early as Soft 05, some people already find that challenging, others way too easy. Even about the first two levels you can already argue which one is harder; that seems to depend entirely on how much practice a given player has with the classic skills vs. the NeoLemmix skills, including what tricks you can do by combining them in various ways.

Especially Soft 12 - Soft 14 though seem to vary drastically in how difficult people perceive them to be:

Soft 12: Hard for Gronkling, easy for namida, and ericderkovits even seems to be stuck on this
Soft 13: Hard for namida, easy for nin10doadict (back during early testing)
Soft 14: Seems to have been easier for Gronkling than for namida, although their solutions were pretty similar
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2020, 01:08:35 PM »
Ok I solved the Soft rank (had to resolve Soft 23 with new update as my replay broke). Also I redid my soft 4 replay to get the Talisman(using only 3 miners)

Also I got all 3 Talisman's in this rank.

Anyways I'm surprised I was able to solve these as I'm not very good. I'm really enjoying this pack because the levels are not huge unlike Icho's Reunion and United. Also I like the fact most
levels just use the L1 styles. I know I probably backrouted most as I did in the 1st 11 levels that Strato said were unintended. Also these levels are very difficult for a 1st rank. minus a few that were easy.

Anyways here are my Soft rank replays.


Also I think Willem should Lp this 1st rank. If I can solve these he can, since I'm lousy at solving.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 01:36:47 PM by ericderkovits »

Offline David

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2020, 01:55:04 PM »
Very nice pack Strato Incendus. I just solved soft levels 1 to 7 (with talismans). Replays as attachment. :P

So far, no level has really been a problem for me, but I had to think for a long time for soft 2. ;)

For soft 6, I didn't understand what the shimmier should be used for. I didn't need to use it, anyway, to solve the puzzle ! ???

I really liked soft 7, not easy either !

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2020, 02:22:15 PM »
Thanks a lot, David! Here are my responses to your replays.

Soft 01-07 (click to show/hide)

I'll respond to ericderkovits's new replays in a second comment later. ;) I just want to say two things already, and those are obviously...

Quote from: ericderkovits
Also I think Willem should Lp this 1st rank.

Thanks a lot for recommending this pack for an LP! :thumbsup:

Quote from: ericderkovits
If I can solve these he can, since I'm lousy at solving.

...or you might just be getting better already ;) , now that you spend more time playing yourself instead of watching other people's replays. :P
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2020, 06:00:38 PM »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2020, 06:17:11 PM »
I continue to be amazed at how many people are actually playing through this pack and the huge amount of replays coming in already, considering that it has only been a few days since the pack's release. I'm not sure if the same can be said of other packs that have been released in the past. My congrats to both Gronkling and eric for finishing the Soft rank :thumbsup: I'm not surprised about Gronkling, even though I haven't gotten to know him until now, as I just started posting earlier this year even though I've been a registered member since 2017 but in the few years after I have been visiting the site daily and only been silently reading the posts in the background. I have only played his Gronkling6 and Gronkling7 packs for Lemmini, the two packs that make extensive use of Lemmini glitches. While I was able to beat all of the latter, 2 levels remain unsolved for me in the former, one of which is a level that is in the Bonus rank of RotL for Lemmini, the Mystery Machine. Still unbeaten by me after almost 3 years! I have read through the Lemmini glitch topic so many times, and I'm still not sure which one needs to be used to solve it, let alone if it's actually listed. It's very easy to just save 1 lemming, but you need to save both, which I haven't been successful in doing yet. The other unsolved level is Bring it Together, although I haven't spent too much time on it. I might be able to get it given enough time, but that remains to be seen.

On the other hand, it surprises me that eric got through the entire Soft rank. It's even more amazing if he managed to get through it without seeing anyone's replays for a slight hint, which sounds like he was able to do so, albeit with a lot of struggling. To add to Strato, it's definitely nice to finally see him actually playing through packs, as I have said over and over that this is how one gets better at level solving. It also amuses me how he started with difficult packs, eg, Artlems and LOA, rather than the other way around of starting with easier packs. Claims of not being a good solver serve only to lead one to doubt him/herself, as you never know unless you try. It's also one that I refuse to believe, as I'm sure he's better at solving than he claims to be. In the same way that I'm certain I wouldn't be good at level designing, but the thing is I won't know that I truly am good or bad at it unless I try. I have recently played around with the editor for very Old Formats, as well as Datpacker and FlexiTool and was able to figure some stuff out on my own for my very first time using them. Perhaps this will make it easier for me to learn how to use the New Formats editor. That is, when I eventually start using and playing around with it :laugh: As with anything, the best way to learn is to simply imitate the files when making a pack, so that is where I would start myself.

Anyways I'm surprised I was able to solve these as I'm not very good. I'm really enjoying this pack because the levels are not huge unlike Icho's Reunion and United. Also I like the fact most
levels just use the L1 styles. I know I probably backrouted most as I did in the 1st 11 levels that Strato said were unintended. Also these levels are very difficult for a 1st rank. minus a few that were easy.

If you haven't noticed, Strato is a huge fan of creating small landscapes with restrictive skillsets. Even then, don't be fooled, as if done well they can be deceptively difficult levels. As I have pointed out before, these levels give the impression and take on the appearance of being a seemingly easy level, but in actuality is a hard level. The same can be said about very large levels. They often give the impression of appearing to be a difficult level, but in actuality aren't too hard. If anything, I think psychologically they are designed to intimidate more than anything, just from the sheer huge size of the level.

LOA is supposed to be harder on average than the other packs Strato has ever released. If you came into LOA expecting an easy first rank, then you were far off. We did warn that the first rank isn't easy at all. Since that was especially true with you, expect the remaining 3 ranks to be even more so. Sure, I found a lot of levels in LOA that others thought were hard easy, and so I tend to be surprised when reading that from other players, but when I take a step back and realize that we're talking about the average and less experienced players, it makes complete sense that these people would find them hard. Even then, I'm in complete agreement with some of the feedback on some levels that highly experienced people like namida and Gronkling found hard, as I also experienced somewhat of a similar struggle on such levels.

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2020, 06:50:49 PM »
I forgot about that pack, I think its probably the best one of my lemmini days if you dont mind glitches and horribly precise assignments, the glitch used in that level is listed on that topic. Also I'm about 2/3s through the 2nd rank now, I'm actually finding it a bit easier than the 1st rank I think, though the 2nd level was one of the hardest yet.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2020, 08:37:52 PM »
ok, It seems loud is starting off hard. I got level 1 solved but I'm struggling with getting the Talisman.

And yes level 2 is real hard.

I figured since Gronkling said level 2 was very hard in the rank I will give my 2 first loud rank replays (level 1 without the Talisman)

And yes I didn't need any hints for the soft rank. Otherwise why bother doing the levels if you already know the solutions or parts of them.


Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2020, 09:04:43 PM »
Yes, I agree with the both of you that Loud 2 is a hard one. I also struggled with it for about a good 10 minutes or so. If I'm not mistaken, this level was originally a late Soft rank level and ended up swapping places with the original Loud 2 level.

I forgot about that pack, I think its probably the best one of my lemmini days if you dont mind glitches and horribly precise assignments, the glitch used in that level is listed on that topic. Also I'm about 2/3s through the 2nd rank now, I'm actually finding it a bit easier than the 1st rank I think, though the 2nd level was one of the hardest yet.

Thanks for letting me know, Gronkling! :thumbsup: In particular, I appreciate not giving any of the solution anyway. The only other question I have is is it a very precise assignment? I have tried everything and I can't seem to get any glitch to work other than the stuck climber glitch.

And yes I didn't need any hints for the soft rank. Otherwise why bother doing the levels if you already know the solutions or parts of them.

Well, you can still do the level even if you have seen some of the solution. By my previous post, I meant seeing a replay for a slight hint on the parts you're stuck on and then you stop watching from that point and carry out the rest of the level yourself from there. Good to know that you did the entire Soft rank spoiler free!

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2020, 09:33:42 PM »
Finished rank 2! I actually found this one easier than the first rank, though I could see a few of the more obscure tricks catching people out. I also saved skills on more levels here than last time. Still a really fun pack! :8:()[:

Full comments
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also in reply to kaywhyn, that level requires some precise assignment (most of my levels do ;P) but not to a ridiculous level like some of my other stages from that time period.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #57 on: December 01, 2020, 09:46:01 PM »
Congrats on completing the Loud rank, Gronkling! :thumbsup:

Finished rank 2! I actually found this one easier than the first rank, though I could see a few of the more obscure tricks catching people out.

Haha great minds think alike. I echoed the exact same thing about the Loud rank feeling much easier than the Soft rank when I pretested LOA.

Quote
Also in reply to kaywhyn, that level requires some precise assignment (most of my levels do ;P) but not to a ridiculous level like some of my other stages from that time period.

Ok, thanks. I'll see if I can put 2 and 2 together and figure it out then.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #58 on: December 01, 2020, 10:30:15 PM »
Quote
Well, you can still do the level even if you have seen some of the solution. By my previous post, I meant seeing a replay for a slight hint on the parts you're stuck on and then you stop watching from that point and carry out the rest of the level yourself from there. Good to know that you did the entire Soft rank spoiler free!

Indeed; that's precisely what I'm doing while playing SEB Lems at the moment. ;) And I did it back in the day with Lemmings Migration as well. I think it's fair to say that the Murder rank of SEB Lems is now to me what Lemmings Migration was back then: I usually can figure out 95% of the solution, but then I always find myself one skill short. And the frustrating part is, it's not like I solve some levels completely and others not at all, it's 95% for the vast majority of levels. :evil: That's how you know you've reached your current skill threshold.

Regarding Gronkling's replays, I'll take one thing out of the spoiler and just disguise which level it refers to:

Quote from: Gronkling
that trap is nastily hidden, I should give it an idle animation

Well, that's one of many reasons why it's a good thing to not only have you back on the forums again, but also as a player of this pack now ;)

Because I have indeed been calling for secondary animations to be added to those traps (link). I think I even made suggestions in that thread what they could look like.



My responses to Gronkling's Loud replays are coming later in a separate comment! ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2020, 11:53:35 PM »

Finished rank 2! I actually found this one easier than the first rank, though I could see a few of the more obscure tricks catching people out.

Haha great minds think alike. I echoed the exact same thing about the Loud rank feeling much easier than the Soft rank when I pretested LOA.

Seems like this is a regular thing with my packs, then, because many also reported the Professional rank of Lemmings World Tour to be easier than the first two ranks. :D

I assume this is because, once I start making the intended solutions more complex, I also start adding in more degrees of freedom. Which in the worst case leads to more backroutes, in the best case at least leads to more alternative solutions (i.e. where most or all of the skills are used, but not necessarily in the intended way).

This will become apparent in my responses to your Loud replays in a minute.

Responses to ericderkovits (click to show/hide)


I've already implemented most of the fixes in my level files and I will upload another update tomorrow.

However, for Loud 09 and 29, the decision of whether I will make changes to enforce the intended solution more compared to the alternative ones is still pending.
Thus, I'm making this partly dependent on Gronkling's feedback to the questions I asked about those two levels. ;)


During testing, I was somewhat lenient with these two levels and allowed the alternative solutions, because I liked those, too.
But the more people are playing now, if there are levels where I never actually see the intended solution at all, I'm inclined to make those levels a little more strict.

And I think it's early enough since the first release of the pack that such comparatively major changes to individual levels would still be somewhat fair. ;)
I generally try to avoid moving levels around between or within ranks after release, because it messes up everyone else's replay files (since usually, only the level creator has them sorted by level name, because that's what the editor does).
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #60 on: December 02, 2020, 12:06:54 AM »
Level 9 felt fine, the shimmier part of level 29 felt very good though the rest seemed too simple. Also when I give a :thumbsup: it just means I don't have any particular comments, its just a good level.

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #61 on: December 02, 2020, 03:43:50 AM »
More progress (click to show/hide)

Currently stumped on 19. I get the general idea but can't quite figure out how to put it all together (no hints yet please).

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #62 on: December 02, 2020, 03:55:57 AM »
O.o Soft 19 is a really good level. I too was initially stumped, and I remember giving up for the night back when I pretested the pack, but shortly after I exited out I had a realization and quickly went back and tried out the idea I had in mind, and sure enough it was indeed the missing link that prevented me from solving it. Based on my experiences, it must be the very start that has you stuck, because once you figure that out the rest is very easy. You can do this, namida! :thumbsup:

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #63 on: December 02, 2020, 08:53:30 AM »
Alright, second update time!

Quote
Level 9 felt fine, the shimmier part of level 29 felt very good though the rest seemed too simple.

Thanks for your feedback! ;)

I did think back and forth about this, but it dawned on me that if I don't fix these two levels now, I will regret it down the road, as more and more people will go with alternative solutions and nobody will ever perform the intended one.

It feels a little weird to fix these two levels now after I had been more lenient on them during testing. But at least I still only break my two testers' solutions at this point, plus Gronkling's - instead of everyone's.

So, sorry to my testers, but at least now you also still have at least one new "tough nut" to enjoy cracking! ;) Because "'tis the season", isn't it? :D

And now, without further ado, here is the

Changelog (click to show/hide)

My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #64 on: December 02, 2020, 09:02:46 AM »
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #65 on: December 02, 2020, 09:57:56 AM »
Re-solves / continuing (click to show/hide)

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #66 on: December 02, 2020, 10:13:19 AM »
Ok, I had to resolve 2 levels that broke, soft 17 and 19

I already knew soft 19 was going to change in the update so I solved it even before the update. (due to platforming high up)

Also I got the Talisman for soft 5, but I saved 61 because there was a cloner in the level.

Also I solved the 1st 10 levels so far of Loud, and yes only level 2 was hard among the 1st 10 of Loud. (I also got the Talisman for Loud 8)
Of course I still can't get the Talisman for Loud 1, just too difficult. And the Update didn't break my Loud 10 replay.

Anyways here are my 3 levels of soft.(2 resolves + soft 5 Talisman(61 saved))
             and the 1st 10 levels of Loud replays

Offline David

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #67 on: December 02, 2020, 03:03:47 PM »
Strato Incendus : Thank you very much for these personalized explanations. I redid Soft level 2 and I think I found the expected solution (see replay !). I hadn't thought of using the glider when the shimmier was hooked. This is stupid ! :forehead: But... I like my idea of using the stoner when the shimmier is jumping. :lem-mindblown: :crylaugh:

I continued up to level 14 (out of order... :laugh:), and honestly find the levels pretty difficult overall (see replays !)

For fun, I took a look at the first 5 levels of the hardcore rank and I passed levels 1, 3 and 4, I found them quite easy (I have the replays, but I'll post them later ...). Bye ! ;P

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #68 on: December 02, 2020, 05:30:17 PM »


I also need to correct my previous statements to some of the solutions to Soft 25:
Soft 25 (click to show/hide)

Regarding music choices:

The standard rotation emulates that of original lemmings, i.e. restarts at Soft 18. However, whenever I used an ONML tileset, I resorted to one of the ONML tracks, which played throughout the Noisemaker rank of Lemmings World Tour.

Responses to David's new replays later in a second comment! ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #69 on: December 02, 2020, 05:50:44 PM »
Next update is here, because we had three further backroutes with yesterday's version:

Changelog (click to show/hide)


Quote
For fun, I took a look at the first 5 levels of the hardcore rank and I passed levels 1, 3 and 4, I found them quite easy (I have the replays, but I'll post them later ...). Bye !

Yes, Hardcore 03 and 04 were some of the first levels created for this pack, so they're much easier than what I came up with towards the end.

Since there's still somewhat of a music-genre split between ranks, it's a little like in Lemmings 2: The Tribes, where you have increasing difficulty within each Tribe / rank from the first to the last level, but not necessarily always from the last levels of one rank to the first levels of the next one.

Some of the late Heavy levels (which were created much later than those early Hardcore levels) are probably harder than the begining of Hardcore... but trust me, Hardcore is not going to stay like that for long. :P

Also, Hardcore 04 in particular might be another one of those "unfixable" levels, at least for adept players, because they'll always find any unfixable backroutes - whereas for average players, they can still pose a challenge, because not all backroutes are equally easy to discover.

For example, David was the very first person to backroute Soft 11, nobody else had even considered doing that. :thumbsup:
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #70 on: December 02, 2020, 08:05:35 PM »
ok, again my soft 17 broke for the 2nd time with the new update(removing 1 fencer)

no other levels failed(all passed with mass replay check)

Here is my re-resolved soft 17


Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #71 on: December 02, 2020, 08:32:07 PM »
Once again, all the many replays that have been coming in for the last several days continues to amaze me at how much this pack is currently being played. Even more amazing is how various people have still found ways to backroute a lot of the levels despite having a few pre-testers for the pack :thumbsup: This confirms to me that even after a pack is pre-tested, backroutes will surely still show up in some way, as it can just be a case that the pre-testers simply didn't catch them. With only 2-3 of us pre-testing, this was bound to happen anyway. With more pre-testers, each with differing level solving skills, I'm sure there wouldn't be as much backroutes, although it's not much help if several of them happen to find the same solutions. The difference is that the less experienced players will probably be less likely to come up with the same solutions that the experts will see more easily.

I haven't seen a lot of the replays, but I have been reading the level feedback and have commented on them accordingly. Keep up the great work, guys! :thumbsup: 

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #72 on: December 02, 2020, 08:57:20 PM »
Finished rank 3! Some tricky levels here, probably a bit harder overall than rank 1, though not hugely so. However the number of skills I've been saving has increased again, there was only 2 where I didn't save extra.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #73 on: December 03, 2020, 12:26:18 AM »
Since Gronkling seems to be breezing through this pack, it shouldn't come as a surprise that we already have the next update! :P


Quote from: kaywhyn
This confirms to me that even after a pack is pre-tested, backroutes will surely still show up in some way

Well, I could have told you that long ago, since I was one of the testers for United... IchoTolot sent us so many updates during the test phase that at some point I lost track of what the current version was (aside from the fact that I wasn't able to solve pretty much anything beyond the first rank anyway :D ). And even still, if you look at the Lemmings United thread right now, it has 22 pages and is currently at version 12.9 (after starting at version 1.0). So you can already see how many updates have been made to this pack due to backroute fixes even long after its release. ;)


My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #74 on: December 03, 2020, 02:46:47 AM »
Well, I could have told you that long ago, since I was one of the testers for United... IchoTolot sent us so many updates during the test phase that at some point I lost track of what the current version was (aside from the fact that I wasn't able to solve pretty much anything beyond the first rank anyway :D ). And even still, if you look at the Lemmings United thread right now, it has 22 pages and is currently at version 12.9 (after starting at version 1.0). So you can already see how many updates have been made to this pack due to backroute fixes even long after its release. ;)

Yes, but this is expected since the aim was to make the levels as backroute proof as possible, especially in regards to the prize for completely solving all of United with intended/acceptable solutions. Also, the difference between the amount of levels of United from LOA is more than 100, so the many updates for United were definitely to be expected! :P And yes, I'm quite surprised that even josh was still able to backroute some levels even after all my solutions were accepted by Icho. Therefore, I think I shouldn't be surprised anymore if more still manage to come up from other players who are currently playing through United. However, the number of updates needed after I completely solved the pack wasn't as much as when I played through the pack. For example, only a few updates were needed for the War rank for a few levels, and similarly for Genocide.

Here, though, I think it's more to do with the various skill levels of the players. Less experienced players will likely backroute levels in different ways than the experts, who generally will be able to catch them more easily. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I still stand by my statement that I don't think I have seen so much replays/feedback come in for a pack in the first few days since a pack's release. I think from what I've seen the first set of replays/feedback for a pack generally doesn't come in until at least a week or so has passed since release. Guess I'll have to look back at the level pack topics and see if that has indeed been the case. At least this has always been the impression that I've gathered regarding packs getting replays/feedback.

Offline David

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #75 on: December 03, 2020, 02:53:19 AM »
I finished Soft rank ! :thumbsup:  Very good levels, well imagined ! I admire the work, really. I enjoy myself ! I really liked Soft 19, Soft 20, Soft 21, and especially Soft 25, but the others didn't "displease" me ! ;P

Levels Soft 16, Soft 18 and Soft 26 seemed rather easy to me, while levels Soft 15 and Soft 28 were very difficult to solve. :forehead:

So I redid Soft 11 with the expected solution (well... I think). ;)

For Soft 19, I recorded the replay before the last update, but I think it doesn't affect the solution I found. :-\

For Hardcore rank, I understand, but we'll talk about that later... I doubt I will get that far, because Soft rank is still quite difficult for me ! :P :laugh:

Thank you ! Bye !

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #76 on: December 03, 2020, 12:24:28 PM »
« Last Edit: December 03, 2020, 12:30:14 PM by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #77 on: December 03, 2020, 10:41:56 PM »
OK I finished all of hardcore except the last level (reason in spoiler). Very nice pack overall, I'd say it's difficulty is a 7/10, though that's with backroutes! Had a lot of fun playing it, I'll come back to the levels that got fixed soon.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #78 on: December 03, 2020, 11:09:12 PM »
Congrats on finishing 99.2 percent (119/120) of the pack, Gronkling! :thumbsup:

I must be a dummy, because it sounds like both you and Armani didn't find Hardcore 24 that hard. That's the only level I haven't been able to solve, at least the latest version of it. Both Armani and I have already backrouted it so many times in the past. So far, the best I have managed on the level is lose 1, which doesn't help since you need to save everyone, and that was when I finally came back to the level last night for the first time since Thanksgiving here in the U.S. I wonder if it might just be a shimmier trick I haven't seen that's preventing me from solving the level. Or, more likely, just not going about the level correctly. Will of course keep trying.

As for Hardcore 30, I can assure you it's not as hard as you're making it sound. Yes, certain skills running out quick will be a problem, but it's all about finding ways to conserve skills wherever possible. IIRC, I still had a handful of skills leftover. Well, since you're not a fan of huge levels, I know who won't be doing the final level of LWT then :P In short, standard height level but an extremely wide level. Might be the max width actually. Not sure. There's probably only 2 skills that can potentially be problematic due to running out quickly, obviously the builder is one of them, but otherwise I ended up having a lot of skills left. 

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #79 on: December 03, 2020, 11:11:54 PM »
HC24 was pretty tricky! One of the harder ones. I guess I'll try on HC30 every now and then if its not too bad, just not something I want to try a lot at a time.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #80 on: December 04, 2020, 12:39:03 AM »
Quote
Congrats on finishing 99.2 percent (119/120) of the pack, Gronkling!

Indeed, from me as well! :thumbsup: But as Darken Rahl said: "Do you believe the Keeper is interested in almost winning?" :P

I'm the first person to trash huge X-of-everything levels. That's precisely why I don't create them very often. ;) Pit Lems still had the most of these in comparison, but they weren't very restrictive. My newer ones, the few that I make, are. :evil: So I felt more justified in having such a level at the end than it might be in other packs, if they already pack a lot of these huge X-of-everything levels at the very beginning of a pack, as well.

Quote
Well, since you're not a fan of huge levels, I know who won't be doing the final level of LWT then :P In short, standard height level but an extremely wide level. Might be the max width actually.

"The Grand Puzzle" is 4000 pixels wide. New-Formats has a width limit of 2400 pixels, so you couldn't even re-create that level in New Formats. Only the player can still handle it.
The Old-Formats editor didn't have a max width, as far as I remember. :P At least not officially. Of course, there was probably a limit at which the player would simply start breaking down.

My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #81 on: December 04, 2020, 12:46:52 AM »
And with that, the next update is here!

Changelog (click to show/hide)

I assume a lot of people are still playing the very first version "silently" ;) , given that the very first version was downloaded an astounding 48 times, but each of the updates only 2 times.

Still feel free to post your replays here, but don't be surprised if I tell you some of them no longer work in my version :P .

The better option would of course be to simply update your version of the pack again every once in a while and check with a mass replay check whether your solutions still work.

I completely understand that it's hard to keep up with every single update, but whenever you take another shot at it and haven't played in a while, it's always easy to simply download the latest version again.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #82 on: December 04, 2020, 03:55:01 AM »
Quote
For example, David was the very first person to backroute Soft 11, nobody else had even considered doing that. :thumbsup:

I'm not sure of the details of the exact case as I haven't been reading spoilers (or indeed, really, other people's comments in general) except where they directly relate to my comments, but - there's plenty of cases where the experienced players miss backroutes that the newer players find. This is a specific reason why I will usually include some of the less-skilled players as testers on my packs - they might indeed try stuff that experienced players dismiss as "too simple for this level" / etc.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #83 on: December 04, 2020, 08:20:27 AM »
Ok, here are my Loud 11-20 replays. These 10 were harder than the 1st 10. but level 15 was the hardest of these.

and I got the Talismans too for 11,14 and 20

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #84 on: December 04, 2020, 11:31:48 AM »
And yet again another small update! I took this as an opportunity to finally try and fix "Bonfire" (Loud 20). Hopefully it works this time!

Changelog (click to show/hide)


Quote
This is a specific reason why I will usually include some of the less-skilled players as testers on my packs - they might indeed try stuff that experienced players dismiss as "too simple for this level" / etc.

I did that as well - I had two people I would consider expert solvers, one intermediate, and one casual player during early "open testing". However, if the less experienced players never make it to the hardest levels because the previous ones are already too hard for them, they won't get to reveal those "easy backroutes" on the harder levels, even if they are glaringly obvious - because they never get to play them in the first place before they see themselves forced to give up ;) . Simply because the average difficulty is already too high for them at that point.

And also, it's not very fun for any tester to attempt a bunch of levels which they know will be too hard for them in general, only to randomly solve one every once in a while by backrouting it, upon which they immediately know that their solution most likely won't count because it's going to be fixed.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #85 on: December 04, 2020, 04:38:27 PM »
I tried again today and finished HC30

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #86 on: December 04, 2020, 06:06:30 PM »
Told you so. Granted, it's far from being the most difficult of the pack, but at the same time it's not trivial either. Anyway, congrats on solving 100% of the pack! :thumbsup:

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #87 on: December 04, 2020, 06:40:53 PM »
ok here are my 2 new resolved loud level replays

Level 16 using both sides of level
Level 20 I couldn't do without bombers and I didn't come close to saving 39, only 35(2 over requirement)

Also I included Loud 5 Not using the climber, since a climber shouldn't be turning around on a stack when using a shimmier.


Just as a Note: Today is my birthday

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #88 on: December 04, 2020, 10:32:54 PM »
Congratulations to Gronkling for beating the pack! :thumbsup: - And congratulations to ericderkovits to his birthday ;)  :party:

@Gronkling: Hardcore 30 is an open-ended level, so your solution was more than fine!


One more thing:
I'm really curious to see whether Colorful Arty can beat this - because he was able to beat SEB Lems. ;) Which is also ranked Medium - Hard, yet at this point I would still consider it harder than LOA.

I for one am currently still struggling with SEB Lems, and I do need occasional hints here and there to even have a chance at the Murder rank.

Between Flopsy and me, it seems like both of us are better at creating hard levels than solving them, because neither of us has solved the other's main pack(s) yet. ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #89 on: December 04, 2020, 11:06:05 PM »
I for one am currently still struggling with SEB Lems, and I do need occasional hints here and there to even have a chance at the Murder rank.

Between Flopsy and me, it seems like both of us are better at creating hard levels than solving them, because neither of us has solved the other's main pack(s) yet. ;)

Now you really got me curious as to how much I'll be struggling with SEB Lems. Too bad it's going to be quite a while before I even get around to playing it due to the planned LPs I still need to do. One of them is almost done. Heck, I'll be amazed if anyone manages to beat all of United without hints. I almost did, but I think it was more to me giving up on a few levels quicker than usual. I think the only person who might had is josh, but since all correspondences was via PM, only Icho can say with certainty.

Then again, I'm not sure if I ever mentioned it, but save for a few levels in each rank, with LOA I felt no extreme real challenge with the pack. Even I thought the Hardcore rank wasn't all that very hard, except for Hardcore 11 that you showcased for the rank in the OP :XD: That was probably the hardest level for me in the entire pack. I still have the newest version of Hardcore 24 unsolved, but the solution will probably come to me eventually. The best I've managed so far is save all but 1, which doesn't help since you need to save everyone on that level. It's likely I'm simply missing something obvious or some trick I might not had seen before.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #90 on: December 05, 2020, 01:24:17 AM »
Quote
Even I thought the Hardcore rank wasn't all that very hard, except for Hardcore 11 that you showcased for the rank in the OP

"Symphony of destruction" is now Hardcore 20; it only used to be Hardcore 11 when you first tested it, but as you might remember, it has swapped positions with "Charred remains" :P .
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #91 on: December 05, 2020, 01:54:25 AM »
"Symphony of destruction" is now Hardcore 20; it only used to be Hardcore 11 when you first tested it, but as you might remember, it has swapped positions with "Charred remains" :P .

I definitely remember reading the level swapped positions. Guess I kind of have forgotten and didn't fully think about the possibility that it did indeed switch positions with another level before posting :XD: Especially since it happened several versions ago during pre-testing :P There haven't been that many levels changing positions anyway.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #92 on: December 06, 2020, 07:17:22 AM »
ok, I finished the Loud rank. Here are my replays for Loud 21-30. In this rank I think level 2 and 15 were the most difficult for me. Still these last 10 levels were pretty tricky though.

And I did get the Talisman for level 22. So the only Talisman I still don't have in This rank is level 1

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #93 on: December 06, 2020, 10:37:55 AM »
...and here's the next update, since two more fixes were in order as a result of your replays ;) !

Changelog (click to show/hide)

My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #94 on: December 07, 2020, 09:07:12 AM »
ok, I resolved levels loud 21 and 29.

These 2 levels were hard. But loud 21 was very hard to execute.

Yeah your right Loud 29 is a special one. I loved this solution.


Offline David

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #95 on: December 07, 2020, 10:21:56 AM »
Thank you for these comments/feedbacks Strato Incendus. So, I remade Soft 11 and Soft 26 (see replays). ;P
And I got to Loud 20, but I'm missing a talisman (Loud 1). I'm totally stuck at Loud 21. :lem-shocked:

For Loud 15, I imagine there is an easier solution... as I found this level particularly hard ! :forehead:

Otherwise, I really liked all of the levels :thumbsup: but... Loud 5's solution is a bit "wacky", anyway !

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #96 on: December 08, 2020, 06:37:30 PM »
Responses to David (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #97 on: December 08, 2020, 06:47:28 PM »
The next update is here with three level fixes:

Changelog (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #98 on: December 09, 2020, 10:18:48 AM »
ok, here are my replays of the first 10 levels of Heavy.

Some of these were tricky but nothing super hard. Also got the Talisman for level 3

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #99 on: December 09, 2020, 02:06:32 PM »

Also, a note to everyone:
You can use the style manager within the NeoLemmix player to update the Autumn tileset. I've added a secondary animation to the one-use leaf trap.

In particular, I just took namida's secondary animation from his Tree tileset, since the trap of that tileset is what the one-use leaf trap is based on, and recoloured it from green to orange to match the autumn colours. Thus, credit goes to namida for creating the original version! ;)

I've sent the updated version to Nessy and he told me that going via the styles manager should work now, but in case it doesn't work for anyone of you, please don't hesitate to report that ;) .
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #100 on: December 10, 2020, 09:13:17 PM »
ok here is the next 10 replays of heavy.

17, 19 and 20 were very difficult. Level 20 was extremely hard to get that 2nd stoner placed precisely with the swimmer climber basher. rest of level was easy. Took several trys.

level 17 was hard because of the bomber must be placed so lemmings not only go left but also don't go right(due to tiny slit in terrain near hatch)
level 19 was hard to get the 3 stackers and 1 stoner placed properly (right set of flamethrowers) so jumpers can land on them precisely. (I managed to get the Talisman for 19)

Got Talismans for 11, 18, and 19.


Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #101 on: December 10, 2020, 10:09:48 PM »
Great job, ericderkovits! :thumbsup: I'm happy to hear those were some tough nuts to crack, even if you've found slightly more skill-efficient solutions on some of those levels so that the replays look easier than those solutions actually were to find out first, according to your description.

The only level I felt needed a tiny fix was Heavy 12, Burning the witches (the update has been uploaded already). This is the first time I actually removed some steel again from a level - because guess what, steel can also be exploited for certain things compared to if it wasn't there. However, the main backroute that was present here for ages is fortunately gone, so your solution was already infinitely better than anything that came before! :thumbsup: I could have accepted it as a slightly easier alternative solution, but in this case, I saw an easy way to fix the level, so I went ahead and did it.

I must say I don't quite remember though what this steel that I have removed now was there for originally... maybe it was just another attempt to break that persistent backroute that I ended up breaking some other way eventually. But maybe, it also served a different purpose... I hope I haven't opened up another shortcut by removing it (and replacing it with the regular 7-pixel-wide brick blocks from the Fire tileset so that my own replay wouldn't be negatively affected :P ). If it does more harm than good, literally taking this level out of the frying pan and into the fire, then the steel might be re-added again and I would accept your current solution instead.

My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #102 on: December 10, 2020, 11:27:31 PM »
ok, how about this for heavy 12. I used the platformer at start (instead of builder), so I can use the builder to turn around  pioneer

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #103 on: December 11, 2020, 09:14:11 AM »
That's better...

Heavy 12 (click to show/hide)

However, I've gone so far to enforce the intended solution here that I might just as well go all the way. Bring out the pickup skills (as you know, that's the last resort)! ;)

(I didn't make the Builder a pickup skill, though, only the Basher, but I'm pretty sure this should suffice).

The update has already been uploaded.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #104 on: December 11, 2020, 09:38:47 AM »
ok, here is my new replay again for heavy 12, now that you added the basher pickups, since my 2nd replay broke.
 Now I used all the skills.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #105 on: December 11, 2020, 09:48:58 AM »
Thanks, that one is as intended at last! :thumbsup:
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #106 on: December 13, 2020, 10:54:40 AM »
ok, here  are the final 10 levels of Heavy.
 Alot of these 10 levels were very difficult.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2020, 09:09:54 PM by ericderkovits »

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #107 on: December 14, 2020, 03:15:57 PM »
Quote from: ericderkovits
Alot of these 10 levels were very difficult.

As they should be! :thumbsup: I'm glad to hear that! :evil:

No backroutes this time! ;)


My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #108 on: December 17, 2020, 12:34:41 AM »
ok, here are the 1st 10 levels of Hardcore replays.

The hardest of these 10 was level 2. The other ones not too difficult.

Got the Talisman for level 1(easy)

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #109 on: December 17, 2020, 06:40:19 AM »
Hardcore 2 is definitely much harder now than it was before. It has already gone through several versions. Armani and I backrouted the level very badly in the earlier versions, and so you're the unfortunate majority to be playing the current version where it's at the peak of its difficulty :P Strato was pretty much like "those damn bomber backroutes"  :crylaugh:

The only other one in the batch you have solved I would say can be difficult for most is Hardcore 5. Probably about equal in difficulty to Hardcore 2, but definitely not as chaotic and so just a tad bit easier. It's still not easy at all.

Just looked ahead with the final 20 levels, and most of them are quite difficult as I recall. Here, I'm putting myself in the shoes of less experienced players, as when I gave feedback I told Strato that I didn't think the Hardcore rank was that hard at all for the final rank of the pack. I felt some of the levels in the earlier ranks were far harder than most of the Hardcore ones, but of course, I'm in a completely different league here :P

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #110 on: December 17, 2020, 07:13:29 AM »
I thought Hardcore 5 was much easier than hardcore 2. I kept having trouble keeping lemmings from splatting in Hardcore 2, Finally I was able to find a solution to handle that.
And like you said before. Some levels people may find hard (not you though since your a master), others may find not so hard. So I guess I just found it much easier.

Hey Strato, I finally got the Gold Talisman for Loud 1.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #111 on: December 17, 2020, 07:46:02 AM »
In some ways Hardcore 5 is easier than Hardcore 2, but it's still not an easy level regardless. In particular, I say the hardest parts are figuring out how to get up and how to recover after getting the buttons on either side. In any case, there are far worse ones yet to come, if you manage to get that far. As you're quite far into the pack, you're doing well.

I thought you said you didn't care for the talismans ??? Haha good job on finally getting the Loud 1 one, though.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #112 on: December 17, 2020, 05:04:12 PM »
First of all, congratulations on getting the talisman for Loud 01, eric! :thumbsup: You actually did it a completely different way than Armani (who was the one who discovered the talisman in the first place). Glad to see there is more than just his fairly obscure method of obtaining it.

Regarding your Hardcore solutions so far, while most of them are not as intended, they use all or all but 1 skill, and are therefore all acceptable as alternative solutions to me! ;) A lot of these are semi-open-ended anyway, and the shape of the terrain itself poses the main challenge (especially on the already mentioned Hardcore 02). Much like with "Wooden pints" on the Heavy rank, no matter which solution you find to navigate those landscapes, none of them are going to be easy.

My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #113 on: December 19, 2020, 08:48:07 AM »
ok, here's my next 10 hardcore level replays.
most of these were easy.
level 17 was a little difficult, and level 20 was super hard. spent alot of time on that one.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #114 on: December 20, 2020, 03:53:48 PM »
Great job, eric! :thumbsup:


As a result of these most recent 10 replays of yours, another small update has been uploaded that brings some additional steel as fixes to Hardcore 16.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #115 on: December 20, 2020, 07:15:18 PM »
ok, how about this for hardcore 16. different solution at start. more difficult with added steel.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #116 on: December 20, 2020, 08:43:12 PM »
Yes, that's much better! :thumbsup: Still not quite as intended, but much closer to it. And it definitely looks like this was a lot harder to figure out ;) .
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #117 on: December 21, 2020, 02:00:37 AM »
Took me long enough to solve this one and only remaining level left. As you know, the latest version of this level was the only one I couldn't solve before you released the pack :-\ Somehow I feel this isn't intended, but I honestly can't see any other way to do it. Definitely one of the hardest levels of the pack now that it has gone through several versions. Then again, this solution of mine is more or less the same as the one I used for the previous version, just substituted two skills in place of the fencer to save the 2nd lemming.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #118 on: December 21, 2020, 09:56:52 AM »
Congratulations for beating the level again, kaywhyn! :thumbsup:

As you guessed, no, this is indeed not intended, but I don't see a way of stopping it. And if it was that difficult to solve anyway, I don't think it's necessary to fix it even further either ;) . This is simply an alternative solution that apparently wasn't any easier to figure out.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #119 on: December 21, 2020, 10:22:41 AM »
The really weird thing is I'm not sure why it took me a really long time to find this solution despite it simply being a minor tweak of my previous solution where I used two skills in place of the fencer and then the rest remained the same. Before I finally solved it, I thought I was a dummy if I couldn't solve it but Armani and Gronkling seemed they were able to solve Hardcore 24 easily. I've seen both of their solutions, and honestly Armani's intended solution is awesome. On the other hand, Gronkling and I found the exact same solution, so now I don't feel as bad about the level stumping me this long :crylaugh:

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #120 on: December 22, 2020, 07:02:31 PM »
ok here are my final levels of Hardcore 21-30.

Hard to say which level was the hardest. I think most of these 10 were not that hard(even level 30-although I used all my builders and destructive skills)

I think the Hardcore rank levels were actually easier than some in the loud and heavy ranks.

Also got the Talisman for level 26. So definitely the hardest Talisman in the pack was Loud 1(so now pack is finished including getting all the Talismans)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #121 on: December 22, 2020, 10:58:00 PM »
Congratulations on beating the entire pack, eric! :thumbsup: No backroutes on these last ten levels!


Difficulty is subjective, as we've already established; kaywhyn definitely struggled a lot with Hardcore 24, and I believe it's fair to say that "Fall from grace" and "Symphony of destruction" are among the hardest levels of the pack.

I'm also noticing the subjectivity of difficulty for myself while currently playing SEB Lems - there were definitely a few levels on the highest regular rank (Rapture) that I could solve pretty quickly, whereas others still have me completely stumped (and some of the easier ones came after the tough nuts).

You're still only the second person to beat the pack, aside from my testers, though.
So I would assume your solving skills have either drastically increased recently, or they've always been at a higher level than you may have given yourself credit for earlier, when you were more of a passive replay watcher :P .


A surprisingly high number of people downloaded the very first version of the pack, which I was very happy about, of course. :thumbsup: But of course, I also noticed that the updates were always just downloaded by 1 or 2 people each. Maybe some people got frustrated by the pack because they got stuck somewhere, or they just got tired of updating several times in a row, because for a while, I had to update the pack with backroute fixes quite frequently. But things have certainly calmed down in that regard by now.

Therefore, I think for anyone still interested in continuing to play, now would be a good time to update your version of the pack again in case you haven't done so yet
- since eric has finished it, so there shouldn't be any necessity for further backroute fixes for quite a while now. ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #122 on: December 22, 2020, 11:35:34 PM »
Difficulty is subjective, as we've already established; kaywhyn definitely struggled a lot with Hardcore 24, and I believe it's fair to say that "Fall from grace" and "Symphony of destruction" are among the hardest levels of the pack.

Yea, I honestly still have no idea why it took me so long to find that solution for Hardcore 24, but it's like you said it might be due to my mental state at what's supposedly a nearly completely patched up level, when I had severely backrouted it several times in the past. Actually, it's a little more than that as well, and that is there were a lot of things that kept complicating things for me, particularly how to release the crowd from the other side, releasing a blocker if used, and how only one can reach the bottom safely at first. Most troubling was how to save the second lemming. I never was able to find that solution due to all these complications/drawbacks. In the end, my solution was simply a minor tweak of the one I used in the previous version, and the crucial thing was

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Save for a few hard ones in each rank, I would definitely say the hardest level in the entire pack is Hardcore 20. That's the level that took me the longest to solve than any other level in the pack. I did see Gronkling's solution, and it's definitely much easier than what I pulled with the extreme precision.

What amazes me is how eric decided to go straight for a difficult pack. Normally, it's advised to play easier packs to ease the transition into playing more difficult packs, but some people either aren't comfortable playing the harder stuff or some still dive into the harder stuff first but get stuck badly and eventually give up altogether on the pack. Then again, Artlems was the very first custom pack he solved on his own, and if his comments are anything to go by, it sounds like it was a difficult pack. In particular, he found several Artlems levels quite difficult, and he also found several LOA levels really hard.

Quote
I'm also noticing the subjectivity of difficulty for myself while currently playing SEB Lems - there were definitely a few levels on the highest regular rank (Rapture) that I could solve pretty quickly, whereas others still have me completely stumped (and some of the easier ones came after the tough nuts).

I should be starting SEB Lems in a day or so, so help is on the way ;) It's still going to be a while before I get to where you are, though, considering the sheer size of the pack. Then again, the largest pack I have finished to date so far is Lemmings Plus I, at 150 levels. At least in the New Formats version, SEB Lems is only larger by 10 levels. Even then, I don't expect to coast through this pack as quickly as I did with LPI, if the difficulty tag attached to the pack and your remarks on how hard both the Murder/Rapture ranks are. I might be in a league of my own when it comes to level solving, but I still get stumped from time to time even in packs considered not as hard.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #123 on: December 23, 2020, 12:44:07 AM »
The reason I was able to beat Artlems and LOA was a big part of seeing alot of the tricks used by other people(mostly Kaywhyn-thanks). Even Icho's Reunion(which he uses alot of tricks) and also
United(seeing Kaywhyn's tricks and Icho's PMd solutions to it). So This helped me greatly in beating Artlems and LOA. Otherwise there would be no way in H*** I could have tackled these 2 custom packs. Also I really enjoyed your LOA Strato. The fact the levels used alot of the original and Ohno tile sets made it easier. Also the size of the levels other than Hardcore 30 were not huge unlike Icho's reunion and united (although that might be psychological as Kaywhyn mentioned before).

I would say looking back at the pack I think the hardest levels (for me that is) were

1) Hardcore 2 God Hates us all (I had so much trouble finding a way to keep Lemmings from splatting)
2) Hardcore 20 Symphony of Destruction (trying to figure out how to get the left lemmings up to the top, and the right lemming using a fencer-cancel to get him up near exit was difficult)
3) Heavy 27 Wooden Pints (was difficult in my solution as building from middle crowd to mined lemming was extremely precise- took along time to get right, also the skills were so limited)
4) Heavy 17 The Bee (was for me very difficult to execute-alot of the basher walker canceling was quite difficult-This level took me a while to get it right)

Of course the Hardest was getting the Talisman for Loud 1

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #124 on: December 23, 2020, 08:05:25 AM »
ok, I tweaked my Hardcore 25 replay to save 2 more lemmings(none splatted when the lead lemming started platforming above updraft).
what I did was instead of pioneer jumping off wall, I let him continue climbing then shimmy left to then land on stairs(thus saving a jumper for later to get a bigger headstart for when he
needs to platform over gap above updraft)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #125 on: December 23, 2020, 09:44:00 AM »
Well done, eric; that's precisely what I've placed the updraft there for! ;)

Quote from: kaywhyn
Then again, the largest pack I have finished to date so far is Lemmings Plus I, at 150 levels.

I assume you're referring to your LP series here? ;) Because of course I know you've finished both Lemmings World Tour and Lemmings United, both of which are larger.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #126 on: December 23, 2020, 11:34:39 AM »
The reason I was able to beat Artlems and LOA was a big part of seeing alot of the tricks used by other people(mostly Kaywhyn-thanks). Even Icho's Reunion(which he uses alot of tricks) and also
United(seeing Kaywhyn's tricks and Icho's PMd solutions to it). So This helped me greatly in beating Artlems and LOA. Otherwise there would be no way in H*** I could have tackled these 2 custom packs.

Thanks for the info. This makes perfect sense. So you had some help beforehand from watching replays before you took on this pack. It's perfectly fine to admit that you needed some help with some of the levels, whether it's in the form of a verbal hint or a replay, as it's better to be honest than to pretend to be someone you're not. I know for sure you would had stayed with much easier packs than either Artlems or LOA otherwise, as these are somewhat beyond your comfort zone. There's nothing wrong with sticking with easier packs and avoiding the harder content if these aren't your cup of tea, as it's just better to do whatever makes you comfortable. Of course, you're still more than welcome to take on the hard stuff if you want. It's a better idea overall to simply play easier packs to help build up the training and experience to take on the harder content. After all, I didn't take on United before I have had so much training from playing and solving Dovelems, Pimolems, Reunion, Sublems, and RotL, as well as from the many Dos packs I have played and solved.

You're welcome with the help/assistance I have provided. It also sounds like you been following along with my LPs. If so, that's always a great way to get better as well. As you know, I'm more than happy to share with the community how I approach level solving in my videos, so those who would like to improve can certainly benefit from watching.

Quote
Also the size of the levels other than Hardcore 30 were not huge unlike Icho's reunion and united (although that might be psychological as Kaywhyn mentioned before).

Actually, the Reunion levels were just wide, as none of them have vertical scrolling since it started off as a pack on Lemmini. The ones that are both tall and wide tend to be extremely overwhelming. But yes, large levels tend to simply intimidate and mess with the player psychologically.

Quote
I would say looking back at the pack I think the hardest levels (for me that is) were

1) Hardcore 2 God Hates us all (I had so much trouble finding a way to keep Lemmings from splatting)
2) Hardcore 20 Symphony of Destruction (trying to figure out how to get the left lemmings up to the top, and the right lemming using a fencer-cancel to get him up near exit was difficult)
3) Heavy 27 Wooden Pints (was difficult in my solution as building from middle crowd to mined lemming was extremely precise- took along time to get right, also the skills were so limited)
4) Heavy 17 The Bee (was for me very difficult to execute-alot of the basher walker canceling was quite difficult-This level took me a while to get it right)

Both Hardcore 2 and 20 I can agree with as being hard levels. I can also agree with Heavy 27 and 17 to an extent, although it sounds like you overcomplicated the former. Let's just say that it's not easy to figure out the best route to take, as well as to consolidate the groups. As for the latter, it's not easy to figure out how to get up efficiently. Then of course there's a bunch of other levels that you mentioned as being hard for you on the other pages, although you probably meant that you thought they weren't anywhere near as these 4 which you thought were the hardest. This pack is definitely harder than Strato's earlier ones.

Quote
Of course the Hardest was getting the Talisman for Loud 1

Just because a talisman is hard doesn't necessarily mean the level itself is. There's plenty of cases where the talisman solution is much harder than the normal solution to the level. Sometimes they're just the normal solution with a few minor tweaks, but other times the solutions are drastically different. Regardless, as you know I don't care about the talismans at all. Any solution that works and solves the level is good enough for me. Not to mention that most of the talismans are beyond my ability to get, and personally I think it's not necessary to waste more time on a level than is needed, because it's time that can be well spent on other things.   

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #127 on: December 23, 2020, 12:09:47 PM »
Quote from: kaywhyn
Regardless, as you know I don't care about the talismans at all. Any solution that works and solves the level is good enough for me. Not to mention that most of the talismans are beyond my ability to get, and personally I think it's not necessary to waste more time on a level than is needed, because it's time that can be well spent on other things.

Says the guy who went out of his way to look for a talisman solution for "The Grand Puzzle" without even a guarantee that it was possible at all... ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #128 on: December 23, 2020, 12:29:16 PM »
Says the guy who went out of his way to look for a talisman solution for "The Grand Puzzle" without even a guarantee that it was possible at all... ;)

You suspected it was possible, and I did note that it was one that was potentially doable for one such as myself. Besides, I didn't really have anything else to do early that morning :P

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #129 on: December 23, 2020, 11:04:50 PM »
ok one more change to Hardcore 25. I used the basher previously not used(instead of digging from top of pillar to get pickups, I bashed right even with top pickup then dug). This managed to save 3
more lemmings(so now saved 70, 5 over requirement). So after saving just the requirement(65), after tweak 1(67), after 2nd small change(70).

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #130 on: December 25, 2020, 09:36:11 AM »
ok I now have my solutions to the pack uploaded to my channel on youtube. Just type lemmings open air in the youtube search bar and you will see my playlist. There are 8 videos.
2 videos for each rank(15 levels per video).

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #131 on: December 25, 2020, 10:17:20 AM »
Thanks a lot, eric! ;) Since I've already watched all of them in the NeoLemmix player and your videos are uncommented, I personally won't watch them all again. But it's a great thing to have for anyone who is playing and looking for solutions. If you keep this approach for other packs, you will be a great help for IchoTolot and his "library of replays".

Your newest solution to Hardcore 25 is a great way of using the additional Basher! :thumbsup: Saving 5 more lemmings doesn't seem to warrant adding another talisman for me, especially because the solution isn't that different from the main one, but 70 is a nice round number.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline David

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #132 on: January 10, 2021, 03:28:55 PM »
Hello Strato Incendus,

Here my replays : Loud 20 to Heavy 15 (+ Loud 9 and Loud 10 which have been updated).

Loud 1 : I'm missing the talisman, I still haven't managed to earn it... :-[
Loud 21 : The water is only visible on the support, that is to say that it is no longer seen when the ground is exploded, it is disturbing ! Anyway, I didn't like this level at all... :forehead:
Loud 28 : The falling snow is unpleasant. I played the level with the "gray mode" (mode whose name I don't know !) :lem-shocked:

Otherwise, I really liked most of the levels, especially Loud 22, Loud 29, Heavy 10 and Heavy 13 !!! :thumbsup: ;P

And I wonder if my solution of the following levels are backroutes : Loud 20, Heavy 3 (too simple !) and Heavy 14 (the solution didn’t seem very interesting to me !)…

Bye !

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #133 on: January 10, 2021, 06:13:48 PM »
yes, loud 1 getting the Talisman is perhaps the hardest level in the whole pack. Even though I managed to get it, it wasn't Armani's obsure way of getting it. It would be interesting to see what his
obsure trick was.

also loud 29 was also probably my favorite level in the whole pack due to the solution, although I backrouted it first.

Also It may look like I will have to update my youtube solutions with any updates of the pack, if David backrouted any levels in his new batch.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #134 on: January 10, 2021, 07:44:11 PM »
Congrats David! :thumbsup: You're doing well. Almost done with the Heavy rank and then onto the final Hardcore rank.

yes, loud 1 getting the Talisman is perhaps the hardest level in the whole pack.

Let's get our facts straight. Loud 1 is nowhere near the hardest level of the entire pack. But yes, in terms of talismans, it's likely the hardest one to obtain in the whole pack.

Quote
Also It may look like I will have to update my youtube solutions with any updates of the pack, if David backrouted any levels in his new batch.

Levels getting updated happen all the time, especially with still very active pack authors, so truthfully I wouldn't bother with reuploading video solutions of the up-to-date levels. For example, with my LPs, even after a pack gets updated, I'm not going to go back and LP the levels that changed. I likely wouldn't go back and resolve any patched up levels either once I'm done solving a pack. LOA is likely an exception, since I was a pre-tester, so at some point I will go back and resolve them, as except for Hardcore 24 I haven't downloaded any new pack versions since the pack's release.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #135 on: January 10, 2021, 08:43:54 PM »
hi kaywhyn. Yes loud 1 is definitely not the hardest level, in fact it's quite easy. Maybe I phrased it wrong, what I should have said is getting the Loud 1 Talisman is harder solving than any other level, at least for me that is. I just wish people wouldn't even put Talisman's in their packs. I don't like them at all. But the only reason I want them is I feel that pack is missing something when their not obtained. Even Icho went back and got the Lemming World tour Groupie 40 Talisman, even when at first he said it wasn't worth the time.

And as far as updating my Youtube ones, I will still keep the older ones(if Strato updates the pack). I will just add the new Youtube video's with the updated ones. Also Since I don't play many packs
(mainly because they're too difficult for me.) I don't mind resolving the levels, Since I don't have much going on right now in lemmings. In fact, I've been also playing the Age of Empires games that
Icho says he's been playing (The Definitive version). Also Age of Empires 2 is the best of these ones.

Also I've entered my 3 levels for level contest 22, I noticed you said you were going to enter. I wonder if you still plan on entering

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #136 on: January 10, 2021, 09:12:38 PM »
hi kaywhyn. Yes loud 1 is definitely not the hardest level, in fact it's quite easy. Maybe I phrased it wrong, what I should have said is getting the Loud 1 Talisman is harder solving than any other level, at least for me that is. I just wish people wouldn't even put Talisman's in their packs. I don't like them at all. But the only reason I want them is I feel that pack is missing something when their not obtained.

Perfectly understandable. You can probably think of it this way: They're not necessary in order to solve a pack. If they were mandatory, I think too many would get frustrated and not make it to the end. Just solving the pack suffices, at least for me it does. That's why I don't bother with talismans. Plus some are just beyond my ability to get, and I don't play the game that rigorously.

Quote
And as far as updating my Youtube ones, I will still keep the older ones(if Strato updates the pack). I will just add the new Youtube video's with the updated ones. Also Since I don't play many packs
(mainly because they're too difficult for me.) I don't mind resolving the levels, Since I don't have much going on right now in lemmings.

Right, keep the vids of the unpatched levels that you currently have up. No need to take those down. Even if only a couple of levels end up changing from the time I upload solutions, I likely won't bother uploading the newly patched up ones as well.

I do have a recommendation for you, and that is you might want to change the video titles of your Lemmings Reunion ones too. They're all titled Lemmings Reunion, which isn't very descriptive and helpful. You can probably put in the rank and level number followed by the level title. Or, you can simply title it the rank name and the level number, or even just title it the level name.

Quote
In fact, I've been also playing the Age of Empires games that
Icho says he's been playing (The Definitive version). Also Age of Empires 2 is the best of these ones.

How funny. I've been playing AoE myself the last several days. It's another game that I grew up with as well. I bought it on Steam a while back, but I hadn't gotten around to playing it until now. There are some things that do bother me, such as how it's extremely difficult to see everything in the UI because everything is so small, but that's because my laptop's native display resolution is quite high. I could simply fix it by lowering it in game, but I rather keep it at my laptop's default if I can help it. Nevertheless, I absolutely love the much improved graphics in the DE version.

Quote
   
Also I've entered my 3 levels for level contest 22, I noticed you said you were going to enter. I wonder if you still plan on entering

Yes, I still plan to enter. I decided to take a break from Lemmings the past week due to being horribly stuck in SEB Lems, but I just got myself unstuck, so I'm going to be trying to finish up my LP of it. The break was definitely much needed. The crazy thing is that I have played nothing but Lemmings daily for the last 10 months. I can understand people getting sick of the game after about a month or so, but to have played it for 10 months straight like I did... :XD: Hopefully it won't take me too long to pick up the NL editor.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #137 on: January 10, 2021, 10:50:12 PM »
Oh wow, I would never have come up with this way to get the Talisman for Loud 1. Thanks Armani!!!

Offline David

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #138 on: January 12, 2021, 01:18:23 PM »
kaywhyn, ericderkovits : thank you for your advice and encouragement ! :thumbsup:

There is only one level that I didn't complete in the Heavy rank : Heavy 17. I find it very difficult ! :lem-mindblown:

Then, since I don't solve the levels in order, I have successfully completed 13 levels of the Hardcore rank. ;P

I am reassured that the Loud 1 talisman is so difficult for everybody... I will try again later, probably.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #139 on: January 12, 2021, 09:57:57 PM »
hi David. Yes Heavy 17(The Bee was hard for me too, I put it at no 4. as being the hardest for me). And yes getting the Talisman for Loud 1 is really difficult. I finally managed to get it (different
though than Armani's(he pmd me his)).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Anyways, it's good that your about half-way through the Hardcore rank already. I actually found the Hardcore rank not as difficult as the loud or heavy ranks(-minus 2 levels: Hardcore 2 and 20 were
for me at least the hardest in the rank.)

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #140 on: January 13, 2021, 01:49:31 AM »
Way to go, David! :thumbsup: You're very well on your way to finishing solving the whole pack. When I pretested the pack, I found the Loud rank easier than the Soft rank. Then the levels got hard again in the Heavy rank, but overall other than the odd 1 or a few levels in each rank, I honestly felt no real challenge with LOA until somewhere around the Heavy rank. Even Hardcore I felt was not very difficult at all, although I'm in agreement with eric that Hardcore 2 and 20 are the hardest of the rank. 24 was also a difficult one for me in its current version, as it was the only level I couldn't resolve before Strato released the pack. It was more due to how I couldn't get around the many problems the level presents before I finally came up with a slight tweak to my previous solution that simply substituted a couple of skills in place of the now absent fencer once again. Before the current version, both Armani and I backrouted the heck out of the level several times.

Heavy 17 is definitely a difficult level, so you're not alone there. I'm sure you can get it eventually, though. There's just a lot of precision needed. Regarding talismans, I personally don't care about obtaining them, as I generally don't play the game rigorously. I simply am content with solving the levels in any way possible, even if it's cheesy and hackish. Not to mention that most talismans are beyond my ability to get, so I usually don't bother. Think of it this way, though. It's a good thing that talismans aren't mandatory in order to solve a pack. Otherwise I think it will frustrate too many of the ones who don't care for them and possibly result in rage quits.

So, if you can't get the Loud 1 talisman, don't worry too much about it. Of course, Loud 1 is a very easy level if you know how, but here the talisman solution is more or less the same as the normal solution but is considerably much harder and definitely requires very good handling of the game with the digger mechanics. I myself don't know where to even start in getting the talisman, but as I said I don't care about it, so I'm not even going to try.

Offline David

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #141 on: January 15, 2021, 06:22:01 PM »
Strato Incendus : Here my replays (Heavy 16 to Hardcore 17 (with all talismans !)) :thumbsup:
I really liked most of the levels. I found Heavy 17, Heavy 27, Hardcore 2, and Hardcore 5 difficult (and great !) :forehead: Otherwise, Heavy 18, Heavy 26 and Heavy 29 seemed too easy to me ! Backroutes ? ?????????


kaywhyn : Unlike you, I'm always looking to level up with the talisman, it's like a challenge for me. If I don't win the talisman, I feel like I haven't really solved the level. :'( But if I find that the talisman is too difficult - like for Loud 1 - I prefer to drop it so as not to waste time. However, like you, I'm looking to solve the levels in any way I can (while trying to win the talisman :laugh:).

Quote
hen I pretested the pack, I found the Loud rank easier than the Soft rank. Then the levels got hard again in the Heavy rank, but overall other than the odd 1 or a few levels in each rank, I honestly felt no real challenge with LOA until somewhere around the Heavy rank.

I agree, although I found some pretty difficult levels in the top two ranks. Still, I have to admit that I've learned a lot of tricks that I didn't know in the last few weeks, so I've improved in level solving since I started the LOA pack. :eyeroll:

Currently, I have almost finished the pack, I still have 6 levels to solve : 2 levels on which I spent a lot of time but which I can not solve (Hardcore 18 and Hardcore 24) and 4 levels that I haven't tried yet, or very few (Hardcore 20, Hardcore 22, Hardcore 25 and Hardcore 30). I don't give up ! ;P


ericderkovits : thanks for your help and explanations, but your spoiler doesn't help me much ! :crylaugh:

I find the Hardcore rank quite difficult, but it's true that most of the levels aren't that much harder than the Heavy rank. I very liked the level Hardcore 2 but I needed a lot of testing before I found the solution ! :eyeroll:

Hardcore 18 and Hardcore 24 are the two levels that are problematic for me at the moment. I spent a lot of time but couldn't find a solution ! But I keep looking... eyes wide open... :lem-mindblown: ;P :crylaugh:
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 06:31:38 PM by David »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #142 on: January 15, 2021, 07:02:50 PM »
kaywhyn : Unlike you, I'm always looking to level up with the talisman, it's like a challenge for me. If I don't win the talisman, I feel like I haven't really solved the level. :'( But if I find that the talisman is too difficult - like for Loud 1 - I prefer to drop it so as not to waste time. However, like you, I'm looking to solve the levels in any way I can (while trying to win the talisman :laugh:).

Perfectly understandable. They can definitely be thought of as challenges, but optional. Just be thankful they aren't mandatory :P Of course, if you feel you must, go for them.

Quote
I agree, although I found some pretty difficult levels in the top two ranks. Still, I have to admit that I've learned a lot of tricks that I didn't know in the last few weeks, so I've improved in level solving since I started the LOA pack. :eyeroll:

Currently, I have almost finished the pack, I still have 6 levels to solve : 2 levels on which I spent a lot of time but which I can not solve (Hardcore 18 and Hardcore 24) and 4 levels that I haven't tried yet, or very few (Hardcore 20, Hardcore 22, Hardcore 25 and Hardcore 30). I don't give up ! ;P

Nicely done! :thumbsup: Perhaps the next time you make another post you'll be completely done with the pack.

Gronkling also said that Hardcore 24 was difficult, and I did as well, at least in its current version. Before release, Armani and I backrouted the heck out of it :crylaugh: Not to mention it was the very last level that I couldn't resolve before release. So, unfortunately you're the part of the community that has to play the level at its peak difficulty :P I'm sure you'll be able to figure out both Hardcore 18 and 24, though.

The best way to get better at solving is just to play more packs. Perhaps after finishing this pack, you could always fall back and take on content a bit on the easier side if difficult packs are beyond your comfort zone. You're still more than welcome to play the difficult packs and see how far you get, but you're not under any obligation to play them if you don't want to. It's perfectly fine to stick to easier packs if those are more up your alley. 

Offline David

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #143 on: January 15, 2021, 07:20:05 PM »
I just passed Hardcore 18 (and Hardcore 22, not very difficult !). :P

For Hardcore 24, I spent a lot of time and I feel like I tried all the possibilities... ??? So far, this is the level I have the most problem with in this pack ! :forehead:

When I finish this pack, I will probably start another one (but which one, I don't know ? If you have any ideas for me, kaywhyn...), and since I like challenges, I will try a pack of 'an equivalent difficulty : medium/hard. The difficulty of this pack suits me perfectly. More difficult, it would be too hard, I think ! At least for now ! :thumbsup:

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #144 on: January 15, 2021, 07:36:58 PM »
Packs that I have played that I recommend: Dovelems, Pimolems, Lemmings Reunion, Lemmings Plus 1, Mazulems, and Sublems. For the first three, I've only played the Lemmini version, but save for some levels which needed to be reworked in order to work in NL, the levels are pretty much the exact same. They're also the very first custom packs I've played. Actually, Mazulems was the first, though I played that on Dos a long time ago. I have yet to play the New Formats version. Lemmings Reunion has the same difficulty tag as LOA. All the other packs I've mentioned have a difficulty below or not that far under Reunion. Even then, there's always those recommended packs or any other pack really that you can play through in case Reunion gets too tough. I would suggest anyone play through easier packs first before taking on the harder packs, anyway.

Another pack worth taking a look at would be Icho's Neolemmix Tutorial Pack. It has a difficulty tag of beginner, but that doesn't mean the pack is a complete pushover :P Besides, Icho can certainly use some additional feedback to improve the pack further ;) Clammings is another great pack as well, though that one gets very hard quite fast. 

Offline David

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #145 on: January 15, 2021, 07:49:11 PM »
OK, thanks ! I won't be bored. I will see...  Anyway, I've already downloaded all the packs you mentioned (except for MazuLems).
:thumbsup:

Pimolems, I did the first three ranks and some bonus levels. I had stopped playing it because I wanted to make packs with the new skills. But I will probably continue one day... :P

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #146 on: January 15, 2021, 10:59:05 PM »
yes heavy 26(To Hell and Back) is too backroutable. But I wanted to send a lemming to hell and back, so I went for that solution(even though I saved just 58). One doesn't even need to do it though. This level can be solved saving 60 without sending a lemming to Hell and back(perhaps there's a way to fix the level so a lemming has to go to hell and back)

Offline David

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #147 on: January 15, 2021, 11:16:28 PM »
Quote
yes heavy 26(To Hell and Back) is too backroutable. But I wanted to send a lemming to hell and back, so I went for that solution(even though I saved just 58). One doesn't even need to do it though. This level can be solved saving 60 without sending a lemming to Hell and back(perhaps there's a way to fix the level so a lemming has to go to hell and back)

Totally agree ! I managed to save them all without sending a single one into the hand of hell ! :lem-mindblown:

Heavy 18 seemed even more "backroutable" to me. I succeeded the first time, and with the talisman. :thumbsup:

Strato Incendus may make some changes to these levels. ???

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #148 on: January 19, 2021, 09:09:43 PM »
Looks like there is somebody new breezing through this pack now! ;)

I've watched all your replays up to the end of the Loud rank. Everything I saw was either as intended, close to intended, or fine alternative solutions.

The only level that will require a minor fix is Loud 26 (I've already changed it in my level file, but it isn't implemented in the download yet; I'll post everything together in one big update).

And, just as I feared, Loud 20 seems to remain unfixable.

On the bright side, though, you're the first one who got the main trick I intended for "Viva la vida"! :thumbsup:
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline David

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings Open Air [Difficulty: Medium - Hard]
« Reply #149 on: January 21, 2021, 01:09:18 PM »
Hello Strato Incendus,

Okay ! Very well ! For Loud 20, why not replace shimmiers with walkers ? The level would be much more interesting, and possible to achieve. However, I don't know what the intended solution was...
??? :P

Otherwise, there are still two levels that I failed to solve : Hardcore 20 (too difficult !) and Hardcore 30 (I don't like levels that are too long !). But I'm happy, I passed Hardcore 24. I'll post my latest replays soon... Bye !
;P